The One You Feed - How to Have Better Conversations: Learn to Argue Less and Listen More with Jefferson Fisher

Episode Date: April 10, 2026

In this episode, Jefferson Fisher discusses how to have better conversations by learning to argue less and listen more. Jefferson emphasizes that winning arguments is counterproductive, as it damages relationships and breeds contempt. Instead, he advocates for approaching conversations with curiosity and a goal of mutual understanding. Key strategies include proper timing, emotional self-awareness, creating conversational “frames” to set clear expectations, and avoiding over-explanation. Fisher also highlights the importance of acknowledging your emotional state and traveling light by addressing lingering issues calmly rather than carrying unnecessary emotional baggage. If you’ve ever felt stuck, overwhelmed, or frustrated by your inability to follow through, this episode offers a grounded, actionable path forward, one small step at a time. Exciting News!!! Coming in March, 2026, my new book, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠How a Little Becomes a Lot: The Art of Small Changes for a More Meaningful Life is now available for pre-orders!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Key Takeaways: The concept that winning an argument is not the goal; understanding is more important. Viewing arguments as knots to be untangled rather than battles to be won. Strategies for effectively handling difficult conversations, including timing and emotional awareness. The importance of acknowledging and validating feelings during discussions. The role of patience in resolving complex issues over time. The significance of timing in initiating difficult conversations. The impact of over-explaining and the importance of being succinct in communication. The three rules for better conversations: control, confidence, and connection. The concept of creating a “frame” for conversations to set clear expectations and reduce anxiety. For full show notes:⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠click here⁠⁠⁠!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ If you enjoyed this conversation with Jefferson Fisher, check out these other episodes: How We Can Improve Communication in Polarized Times with Charles Duhigg How to Unlock the Power of Deeper Connections with David Brooks By purchasing products and/or services from our sponsors, you are helping to support The One You Feed, and we greatly appreciate it. Thank you! This episode is sponsored by: Rocket Money Let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster. Join at rocketmoney.com/feed. Pebl – an AI-powered platform that helps companies hire and manage global teams in 185+ countries. Get a free estimate at hipebl.ai Hello Fresh – Get 10 free meals + a FREE Zwilling Knife (a $144.99 value) on your third box. Offer valid while supplies last. David Protein bars deliver up to 28g of protein for just 150 calories—without sacrificing taste! For a limited time, our listeners can receive this special deal: buy 4 cartons and get the 5th free when you go to www.davidprotein.com/FEED Brodo Broth: Shop the best broth on the planet with Brodo.  Head to Brodo.com/TOYF for 20% off your first subscription order and use code TOYF for an additional $10 off. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Time is a great sifter of things. Like what matters right now? It really matters tomorrow. You think about what you were stressed about three days ago. You probably can't remember. But in that moment, it was everything. You had to get this done. And a great test for that is thinking of a time

where you wanted to respond to somebody over email because you thought their email was snarky. And you type out a response, and instead of sending it, you don't. And you wait. And then the next day you read it again, you go, I don't really need to send this. Welcome to the one you feed.

Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like, garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter.

It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. There are certain conversations we all postpone. Not because we don't know they matter, but because we know they do. And so we wait for the perfect moment, which usually never comes. In this conversation, Jefferson Fisher and I talk about when to speak up, when to wait, and how to know the difference. And one of my favorite ideas from this conversation, that if something is still bothering you after time has done its sifting, it probably needs to be said.

I also loved thinking of arguments as not things to be one, but knots to be untangled. I'm Eric Zimmer, and this is the one you feed. I've got something really special to share with you. My new book, How a Little Becomes a Lot, The Art of Small Changes for a More Meaningful Life, is officially out now. Right now, a lot of us are carrying more than we know what to do with. The news alone is enough to make you want to crawl back into bed,

and the amount of input that's coming our way feels unsustainable. This book isn't about fixing all of that. It's about the next small thing you can do when everything feels too big to face. Underneath all the anxiety and overwhelm is something important. You care. You care about your life, your people, the world. And this book is about turning that care into action.

Not all at once, but little by little, in ways that actually hold up. The book is available now wherever books are sold, and you can learn more at one you feed.net slash book. It's never too early to plan your summer story in Europe with WestJet, From rolling countryside to cobblestone streets, begin your next chapter. Book your seat at westjet.com or call your travel agent. Westjet, where your story takes off. Hi, Jefferson.

Welcome to the show. Hey, Eric, thanks for having me. I'm excited to talk with you about your workbook that just came out called The Next Conversation, Practical exercises for arguing less and talking more. But before we get into that, I'd like to start like we always do with the parable. And in the parable, there's a grand parable. who's talking with their grandchild, and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us

that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other's a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops, and they think about it for a second. They look up at their grandparent, and they say,

well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. It tells me there's two choices. You can either do things to improve your life

or you can do things to ruin your life. And either way, you could say they lead to the same destination and that would be the end of our existence here. But the difference is what do we do at the time that we have? To me, when I hear that, I kind of turn in my head to say, well, what I believe in my faith is, what do you do when you're born to be the wolf that does a lot of bad? And yet you strive to be the wolf that does a lot of good. And so it's making it's making the hard decision of, though you were born a bad wolf, how do you live life of doing all the good that you can? And so to me, it's a challenge. You're both a joy when trials are in front of you. Yes, it is certainly a challenge. because that bad wolf can be particularly loud in a lot of circumstances.

Yeah. So I want to start with an idea from your work that says never win an argument. Talk to me about that. A lot of people think that you have to get into an argument in order to win it. You want to win. You see lots of books. You see lots of articles on win every argument, how to win everything that you do. Even though I'm an attorney, I'll be the first to tell you, winning an argument is not something you want to do. Winning an argument is a losing game. Eric, you lose relationships, you lose friendships. And really, all you've won is contempt. You've won that awkward silence between you when you haven't spoken for months because you were so set out on having the last word, so set out on saying, no, they have to agree with me, to win that element.

to a poke in their eye. And I can't tell you how many times I've talked to people who've, you know, if they've been estranged from a brother or a sibling or a child that they have. And it's usually because there was a conversation that turned into an argument and somebody decided they had to win it. And what they did was lose a lot more. So usually when we're in an argument, a lot of times we get into arguments that you look back and you're like, what were we even arguing about?

But often there's something there that matters to us. We want a certain outcome. There's something we want to be different about the situation that we're in. So what's a good way to reframe that? So if I'm not aiming to win an argument, what am I trying to do when I'm in a conversation where me and the other person have a disagreement, and it's a disagreement that needs some kind of resolution. It's not like I disagree with you about politics. I mean, it doesn't matter, right? We could just let that go. But if we disagree about how we're doing something with, say,

one of our children, that is a discussion that, you know, we may not want to win, but we do have a point of view. There's a difference between arguing to be simply understood versus arguing on behalf of a certain action that you're wanting to move for. So what I teach is you don't want to see arguments as something to win. you want to see arguments as something to unravel, meaning there's a knot in the conversation between the two of you. There's something that is a kink in the water hose. There's a reason why water's not flowing. It's because we got a kink in it. And most of the time, I'd say when, like, vast majority of the arguments that happen, let's say, Eric, you and I are talking about, it could be politics, it could be, you know, the state of our world or what people should be doing.

I'm not arguing against you. I'm arguing to be understood by you. I'm not fighting you. I'm fighting to be understood by you. And so much of it goes away when you actually stop, affirm, acknowledge that you can actually understand where they're coming from,

rather than fighting and say, no, your perspective has no merit. It counts for zero. If you just acknowledge us a little bit, There's a lot more good that can be done. So the right frame of mind would be this. When you go into that next difficult conversation, have something to learn, not something to prove.

When you go into the conversation with, what can I learn from this? What can I get out of this? Rather than they have to agree with me, better things are going to happen in your life. In general, you talked about conversations to be understood in conversations to solve an issue. Does it make sense to usually orient around the understood part

before you get to that second part of solving the issue? Yes. So let's say we're in a meeting together. And you throw out an idea. If I automatically just shoot it down, no, no, that's the stupidest idea. Why would you even pose that? Is that going to give any good feelings from you towards me?

Of course not. Yeah, of course not. And that's what we do with our spouse. That's what we do with a lot of things. When somebody says, hey, I want to do the guy. No, I don't want to do that. We only like it if it's our idea. It's what I want to do.

It's what I want to initiate. And so it's like in a business meeting, people, they will find ways to shoot down every idea you have and yet find every way to try and uplift every idea they have. They don't like it because it's not their idea. It's like in a husband and wife context, it could be the wife suggests something, thing and the husband goes, no, no, no, no, I don't want to do that. And then all of a sudden,

he's like, you know, it's a good idea? We should do that. Like the very same thing that the wife said. It's like, we just don't like it if it's not our idea. So what do you start with? You start to that element of acknowledging and understanding. It sounds basic, but so many people just don't, just don't do it. For me to sit down and say, hey, I hear you. That makes a lot of sense. I can imagine I'd feel the same way if I were you. Yeah, of course you would feel that way. rather than me telling them that what they're feeling isn't true, or telling them why they shouldn't feel that way. So I'm going to jump to slightly difficult situations here.

And maybe we should be doing more of your framework to start, but I'm just going to kind of go there, which is a lot of times, let's take a marriage dynamic. I could take an old marriage of mine as a dynamic. Things are so fractured that conversational repair can take a long time. So here's what would happen with me. I would be like, all right, I'm just, we're not communicating well. I'm going to learn to communicate better.

I would read a book on communication or something about couples. And I would come back with the general thing you're saying, sort of the acknowledge, the try and understand. And it was still just then this same attack would come. And I would then go, well, this isn't going to work. Like, I tried. I'd get more mad, right? Like, well, I tried to be understanding. And I tried to acknowledge their side of it, but they're not doing that for me.

So how would you counsel people to be patient with the process? Let me ask, was this something that you ended up, you said in a prior marriage, right? Yeah, we did not work it out. Yeah, okay. Well, that's what I'm saying. So that's also an option. Yeah. Right.

We just have to find our reasonable. Like, there's certain people that you mix with and this person is not reasonable to me and I'm not reasonable to her. Right. But then they end up marrying somebody else. You know, it's like I found my reasonable person. We are not always going to be fitting like Legos. So that's an option.

There's an option that. How do you be patient with the process of knowing that most of the time, big changes, personality changes, issues that you have to talk about are not things that are going to be solved in one conversation. We think that if I just talk to you once, you know, right in between all the busy things we have during the day, right after the kids get picked up from school, right when we're tired and exhausted at the end of the day,

and this is when I choose to have this conversation with you, that it should be as easy as flipping on a light switch in my brain. And usually big conversations, what I like to say is the bigger the topic, the longer of a conversation it's going to have, meaning feel the difference, Eric, of this, of me saying, hey, okay, I need to decide something right now with you right in this very moment,

versus me saying, Hey, Eric, I want to have a conversation with you that's important to me. I really want to have the conversation, you know, throughout this month or over the next few weeks, where it's, okay, now we have time to actually let it breathe. Now we don't have to force this. Now it's, we get to talk in perspectives rather than talking about running against a brick wall. And usually it's your head, you know, just hitting against it. So whenever you are able to draw it out, the better that conversation is going to be.

So you take like a very hard impact issue and you kind of like you tease it. Like I, I, my daughter who's six, when her hair is getting long as a baby, you know, they get tangles, right? And it's not like I can just grab a brush and just rip it out. I can't. That would be terrible. I'd be horrible. What do you have to do? You have to like grab each strand and like slowly tease it out to see how it takes time.

It takes effort. You can't do it by brute force. And so that's the metaphor there in the conversation. If you're able to leave enough time to go granular and go, okay, let's look at the breakdown. Like, what am I missing? When you say that, what my brain says is give the time to show that kind of patience. That's such a great line. Like, what am I missing?

If I assume that the person has a point, at least that makes sense in their mind. So there's something I'm not seeing. It just means they have a perspective and I'm not really seeing it. So I love that question. What am I missing or tell me more or what else? Another question would be not just how to have a conversation, which we'll spend more time on, but when to have a conversation. Talk to me about how we think through when. In some cases, even if we should have a conversation.

There's really a rule of three that I stand by when you have these kind of questions. And number one is, does it need to be said? That really need to be said. Number two, does it need to be said now? And three, the most important, am I the one to say it? Because there are certain things in life that people just have to learn on their own. Like, as my grandfather would say, he'd say, look, I can only tell it to you. I can't understand it for you.

And there's a lot of that, well, you see like on social media, people just go and type whatever posts and they think that they are really changed in the world by just having some anger post of just what the world's coming to. Yep. And all they're doing is just stealing their own joy when they could be probably going and playing with their grandkids, you know what I mean? When it comes to when to have a conversation, it needs to be on a time frame, most importantly,

that is not theirs alone. Meaning you might have somebody, let me give you an example. I had a guy who was picking his daughter up from school. And while he was walking and go pick her up, one of the assistant principals or council, came out and just started railing on him of an issue that it doesn't matter, but just almost verbally attacking him. And he got sucked in and started giving it right back at that moment

versus saying, I'll schedule a time with you when it's right for me instead of having that, you know, step into, no, I'll get to choose when I'm into this conversation and it's not going to be right now. So we get into the vortex a lot of time, especially when people are saying stuff that ignites us, gets us aggravated, that we follow their time frame when I haven't at all asked myself, am I ready for this conversation? As an attorney, imagine if I went into trial, and I didn't really know what the case was about, I just somebody said something and I didn't have my evidence, I didn't have my documents, I didn't have my exhibits, I didn't have excerpts that I wanted, Like I hadn't had time to sift out how I feel about it

and what they need to understand from it. And that's what happens. We get up and we just decide to do it on the fly without really having a basis for it. And it's that own time that you have to make sure that you speak on your time frame. Now you've got to make sure that you're also not doing it the other way. It's a balance when you're trying to push a conversation

and the kids are in the middle of their bath and you're trying to get dinner ready. And okay, now's the half the time, the conversation about the budget. You know, that's, that's not going to happen. You know, for me, in my world, we'll be in bed, and I'm ready to just sleep. And my wife will roll over and say something of like, okay, so I've been thinking, and it's something very important. And I'm like, this is, what, what did you say?

And I had like barely one eye open. I'm ready to clock out. Yep. That's not what her brain is. And so, like, how do you engage that? Like, there's, I always have to say, like, I want to talk about this. I will be much better to talk about this if we move it to tomorrow or this afternoon or later. And so how do you deal with that in a time where somebody's approach you with the conversation that's not a good time?

Number one is to know when you're ready. If you're not ready for it, you need to voice that. And I say you can voice that with I can tell. So number two would be I can tell. I can tell I'm not ready for this conversation. I can tell I'm not myself right now. I can tell I'm getting defensive. I can tell.

I guess a way of having self-awareness in it. And number three, just you need to say, I want to talk about this. Even if it's something you disagree with, even if maybe you don't want to talk about it, it's still going to need to be addressed. So it's, I want to address this. I need to address this later. I want to talk about this. I will be much better engaged.

I'll be a better person. I'll be ready to get into this with you at a later time. I'll admit I'm a little spoiled. Ginny does a lot of the cooking, and she's great at it. However, she has been traveling a lot lately, and I am really busy launching a book, which has made me really glad that I have Hello Fresh. It saves me going to the grocery store, and they have so many different options. I'm kind of particular about what I eat, and yet I still find tons of things that I'll eat on Hello Fresh.

I'm able to order delicious, healthy, high-protein meals that are enjoyable to cook. It gives me something to do with my hands at the end of a long day sitting in front of a screen. So go to hellofresh.com slash feed to get 10 free meals and a free Zwilling knife, which is $144.99 value on your third box. Offer valid while supplies last. Free meals applied as discount on first box, new subscribers only, varies by plan. I've talked before about how important therapy has been in my life. Having someone who can help you see yourself more clearly, challenge your thinking, and support you through the hard parts makes a real difference.

But finding the right therapist, that is its own life journey in and of itself. Who takes your insurance? Who's the right fit? Where do you even start? And that's why I love what Alma is doing. They've built a network of over 20,000 therapists, and their directory lets you filter by things like approach, specials, and background, and 99% of Alma therapists accept insurance. People who find a therapist through Alma save an average of 80% on session costs. They also have a free cost estimator so you know what

you'll actually pay before you begin. Getting started is often the hardest part of anything, and it is definitely the hardest part of therapy, finding that therapy, and Alma can help with this. So find the right therapist for you at Hello Alma. dot com slash feed that's hello alma a lma a lma dot com slash feed it's amazing how much of good conversation is saying some of the things that you just said where it's like we acknowledge what's going on inside of us or we acknowledge the dynamic or we acknowledge the challenge, and I just think that takes so many things that are happening inside of us and puts them out so people know where we are. Yeah, I say that when you claim it, you control it, meaning when I say how I'm feeling in the conversation, that signals why I'm

responding that way. And it's a sense of vulnerability. What does that mean? It's a sense of connection to the other person, not that we grow closer together, but that they understand me better. So if I'm talking to you and I get on this podcast and I say, Eric, I can tell I'm a little bit grumpy because my daughter woke me up at 4.30 and I'm a little sleepy. You know, like that's, wouldn't you rather know that? Then you go, God, why is he's just a grumpy person? He just doesn't like me. Yeah, yeah. That's a perfect example. All of a sudden, you might start taking that personally. Yeah. Oh, well, they just don't like me. And now I'm going to, in fact, you know what? And now because they don't like they don't think I like them. And now I'm going to act a little bit different. And now I'm

going to have different thoughts. And now I'm going to talk about them differently to other people, all because I didn't voice that sense of awareness. So I can't tell you how many times it's helped me and helped other people and arguments. If I can just get to them to say, look, I can tell that I'm getting defensive. Or I can tell I'm getting defensive here. Or let me rephrase that. I can tell that what you just said is getting me defensive or I can tell hearing that is making me defensive. I'll tell you it is a strength and to me such a sign of a good communicator

and attractive really in conversation when somebody can acknowledge that they're getting defensive. That signals to me that that person is emotionally intelligent and if you're in it with them, you can have a really good conversation, even when, because I've had it where the person goes, I don't know if I'm saying this because I'm defensive or I'm saying this because I'm insecure.

And I mean, I was just floored by that response because I'm like, that's the kind of awareness of, regardless of what you say, I'm going to believe you. I'm going to be more engaged with you now because you're not keeping your cards close to the vest, right? You're putting them out there and then I can put them out there rather than us. It's unkinking the water hose.

I shut down in conflict. Like I just kind of, it's like I kind of, to go offline. You feel like you avoid it? I avoid it, but it's even more than that. It's like my brain goes blank. Ecstatic? Yeah, I'm having a hard time knowing what to think. I'm just, it feels like sort of like the power is shutting down inside me a little bit. And I didn't for a long time know how to say that. So it would drive some conversational dynamics that were not great because the person is bringing, you know, coming to me with a problem or an issue. and I'm not saying anything.

I'm not responding. And I just have found it much better to say, oh, I'm kind of having a problem where I'm shutting down a little bit. Give me just a second here. Or I'm also someone who likes to think before I respond. Like, I really want to take a moment and process, particularly in emotional moments. And I have also found that that is helpful for me to say, like, I heard you and I'm just processing everything you said is a way for me of the other person then doesn't take my quietness or my silence as I don't care. Correct. You said some important things. One is it's very important

that when you don't want to respond and you don't really have a response, you got to acknowledge what they said. There's a difference between saying nothing at all, which is only going to upset them more. Versus you saying, I hear you, I need to take some time thinking about my response to that. Like, ooh, that sounds pretty strong to me to say, I'm going to choose my timing here. I'm going to think about what you said. I need some time to think about what you said before I say something. That to me is a sign of a big strength.

and I'll tell you in my own marriage, when it gets to a point where I'm not in a good place, what we say is, I'll say, I'm in the red, meaning like a battery. Like it's typically, I mean, as I'm 20% or below right now of just how I'm feeling. And if I say I'm in the red,

she knows that, okay, well, we're going to time out. We got to stop. We got to recharge. That means we're going to have this conversation tomorrow. We're going to take some time. We've got to take a breather. And so as soon as I can say, I could tell I'm in the red. But, I mean, we've been very long enough.

She knows when I'm in the red. So she'll sometimes print if they go, I can tell you're in the red right now. We'll talk about this evening. And so, but what I'm saying is damage. Real damage is done. Yes. When you don't voice that you're in the red.

And more so when the other person knows. knows you're in the red and they keep pushing anyway. That creates like irrevocable damage to a relationship because that breeds contempt. That breeds resentment. I was crying, uncle, and you still didn't let go. Like that's the kind of stuff that you will hold against them for a very long time because now that's separate from the actual issue of the conversation.

It's not about the thing anymore. It's about how you were treated. Exactly. Or how you treated someone else. Yeah. Now it's a different level. I agree. The art of knowing when nothing good can come from continuing the conversation is so important.

Like I've just realizing like, okay, I'm in the red, she's in the red, however you want to call it, we are beyond the point that anything constructive can happen. And anything that we continue to talk about is likely going to be destructive. And knowing that, I think is so important. It's a difference between having a relationship and ending a relationship. I mean, it's where you have so much animosity that it's not from the actual thing. It's that you talked about or argue it. It's about something much deeper. That's like where you could have solved it.

You really could have made everything better. have you just addressed that little knot? Like if you had just taken the time, maybe you needed to use some tweezers, and just, you know, tease it out. But instead, it's just a big jumble of like an open-faced fishing rod. Like you just, it's so much so tangled

that you go, I would rather throw this away than put through the effort of going through every single, to do this. And so that's what happens when people say, I can't, it's not worth it to me. I am tired. I don't want this anymore because I'm just in so much of a knot. And it is incredibly easy to do. Yep. Yep. It is very, very easy. So I want to go back to when to have a conversation. and I want to flip it to me deciding when I should have a difficult conversation with someone else. Like, how do I know that I should speak up?

And then how do I know when the right time to speak up is? Time is a great sifter of things. Like, what matters right now? It really matters tomorrow. You think about what you were stressed about three days ago. You probably can't remember. But in that moment, it was everything. You had to get this done.

And a great test for that is thinking of a time where you wanted to respond to somebody over email because you thought their email was snarky. And you type out a response and instead of sending it, you don't and you wait. And then the next day you read it again, you go, I don't really need to send this. It doesn't really. It's not going to matter. Yeah, I can tell you that. Somebody was me many times as an attorney where you have, I have the sharpest email you've ever said.

that I'm just, it's full of things that I know I'm getting it off my chest. And then I read it the next morning and I almost laugh at it. Like, what was I going to do sending that? I had to set a rule for myself. I can't send any emails after 4 p.m. Because what would happen if I get through all my meetings for the day, I'm tired, I'm trying to get out the door. I'm in a hurry. I'm a little agitated and so on that I'm flying through emails. And I just had to learn like particularly like anything that is it all sticky. I can draft it, but I just shouldn't send it. Correct. And to your point, I would come in the next day and almost always be like, hang on, I want to do that differently. Even if it was just because I was rushing, even if it was just because I was in a hurry, you know, taking a little

bit longer on an email that, like, there's some emotional content to, I have found again and again to be one of the most helpful things I did back in my previous career. I think about like when, let's just say 1800s. Like, you sent letters. Like, you spent time thinking about what you wanted in that letter, you know?

And people... You don't have to go back to the 1800s. I mean, I'm old enough that I used to communicate with people via letter. I was thinking, like, I just went on like a Civil War tour and I was thinking of like... Okay, stage coach.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you know, you get the letter from your love who's in a, like, hang on to this letter, you know, that's like five sentence. and really doesn't give much. But that's not the world we live in now. So it's not something to...

No, it is not. Yeah, it's not like we're going to go back. We're not. We live in a different age. And that just means we've got to be careful about how fast, how quick. Like you don't get points for the quick draw response.

You don't get an extra sticker. You don't get a gold medal. There's not a stopwatch where people go and yes. We now have a broken world record for the fastest text response, you know, email response in the world. There's no award that's given for that. And rarely just the thing that is said fast,

rarely is the thing that is said fast accepted well. That's the whole point of when I teach, let your first word be your breath, when I can breathe and actually hear the question and show you in signaling that I am listening and that I'm analyzing and that I want intention, I want to show you that what I am about to say is something I've thought about, that I've given my precious time to think. It's easier said than

done for sure, but the time is a great sifter. And so how do you do that? Like you said, that rule of nothing after 4 p.m., that's great. You get a text message? It's okay to leave some time, what I'll do if I get a text message in the morning. And I know it's in the middle of doing stuff with kids. I'm in kind of a work mode. I will read it. Then I swipe and I mark it unread again. So I can remind myself, I'm going to look at this with fresh eyes later. Because otherwise, I read it, and then life happens, and it's been 30 days before I've ever responded. It disappears. Where are my gloves?

Come on, heat. Any day now? Winter is hard, but your groceries don't have to be. This winter, stay warm. Tap the banner to order your groceries online at walla.com. Enjoy in-store prices. without leaving your home. You'll find the same regular prices online as in store.

Many promotions are available both in store and online, though some may vary. I still am figuring out how to manage my text inbox. Like, I'm really good with email. I kind of got that all figured out. But like you said, it's that text. It's the ones that get me are the ones where I'm like, okay, this deserves a thoughtful response more than what I can just type out. So I want to give this the time it deserves.

And then, like you said, if I'm not careful, it just, it's buried under 15 other texts. And I look back, like you said, a month later, I'm like, I cannot believe I did not respond to that. Yeah, that's exactly right. And it's how do you find your own system? And everybody does. Everybody has to find their own system of how you want to communicate to the people around you. Because the sad thing is, it's not just text to strangers. Like, it could be a text to your mom, your dad, a grandparent.

Like, it's hard to make sure you're devoting time to distinguish between what requires an actual sitting down for a thoughtful response. So how do you make sure that you know when to have a conversation is when you've been able to inject enough time into the conversation to slow it down and be able to respond thoughtfully? I get emails from listeners who often have, I mean, they're in the middle of a really difficult situation. and they'll honor me by sharing that with me. And I'm always in this, I'm trying to sort of balance like, well, I don't, I don't want to reply to them in a month. And I don't have a quick answer, right? Like I really, sometimes I am. I'm like, yeah, I kind of recognize the pattern.

But a lot of times I'm like, whoa, all right, that's heavy. Let me give that some time. So I'm going to keep coming back to when because I have the tendency to say, now it's not. the right time. And now is not the right time. My problem is not often that I pick the right time and I'm thoughtful. My problem is I convince myself that it's never the right time because I don't want to do it. Yeah. Yeah, that's, we can all relate to that. When it comes to the hard conversations, the really difficult conversations, the longer they sit, the more they fester. Let's put it in terms of the truth telling somebody the truth.

The shorter you can make the distance between the truth and verbalizing the truth and giving somebody that truth. The shorter you can make the distance, the better it's going to be. But the longer you wait, the share that truth, the worse it becomes. To where all of a sudden, now you're living the lie

because you were uncomfortable enough to tell the truth in the shorter time period. Maybe it's somebody who you knew that you were going to let go from their job. Maybe it's news you didn't want to share with your company. Maybe it's something that happened that you didn't want to tell your spouse. They will find out eventually. It's going to happen. Whether you're alive or not.

And it's going to be the rare chance that people don't find out the truth. And the longer you wait, the more painful it is. And so the faster you can have the hard conversation, the better people appreciate it. And I'll tell you, when you proactively tell people the hard thing, the easier it is for them to take and the better your relationship becomes. Like when you can forecast the problem spots, that's a difference between, let's say, with your spouse or somebody at work or a business partner, you got a bad report on something and you don't really want to share. with the other co-worker that you have, the longer you wait and then they find out later and you could have told them but you didn't,

that doesn't help your relationship, that hurts your relationship. So that's what I would say. It's going to hurt, but the faster it goes, the easier it feels. It's contradictory to think that way, but usually the more painful of a topic it is, the faster you say it,

the better it feels, really. Yeah, I mean, I think what you said there is really important because the more distance you put in there, that distance itself becomes part of the problem. When you eventually get to talking about it, there is the thing itself and then there's the why did you let it go on this long before you said something. Exactly. Right? So now we have two problems in the conversation. The news we didn't want to share, the thing we didn't want to do. And now also the frustration from the other person, the other sort of rule I have for myself.

I don't follow this one perfectly. I don't follow any of them perfectly, but is that I ask myself, am I ever going to want to have this conversation? Honestly, like, because we can be like, I'll do it when I feel this or I'll do it. I'm like, am I ever going to want to do it? And if the answer is no,

then the sooner I do it, the better for the reasons you just stated, but also the amount of time I have to spend dreading it reduces. Dramatically, yeah. Yeah, yeah, because if I, I'm like, I know I should say something, but I'm not going to do it right now. I'm not going to do it right now. Then I'm carrying that dread around. And so if I'm like, I'll never want to have this conversation or there's never a good time for it, I probably should just try and do it as soon as I can. It's like, yeah, having to tell somebody no, somebody invited you to a party and you really want to say no. Instead, you just kick it. You're like, ah, let me see. I don't know. I'm just wanting to see my schedule opens up. And you use that excuse, knowing full well, you don't want to go. Yeah. And it ends up that you're the one who, like you said, has to carry that anxiety or that thought is now living in your head rent-free when you could have been done with it weeks before. This is a really dumb example.

I was on a sales call where somebody was trying to sell me something this morning. It was something I was interested in. I wanted to get on the call. I mean, I'm not saying, like, I got a spam call. This was something I entered into voluntarily, and I liked the product, and I'm interested in it. And it's more than I will spend right now. And so as we were going on, I was in the sort of like, well, I'll just let her continue to demo the thing. And then I'll get off the call and be like, oh, yeah, let me think about it.

And I just thought, you know, maybe it's because I've listened to some of your stuff recently. I just thought the kind thing to do is just to tell this woman right now, I'm not going to be able to afford that. I've saved her 20 more minutes of demo. I've saved emails back and, you know, oh, yeah, I'm thinking about it, all because I'm uncomfortable saying, that and I just was like, I'm just going to give her the gift of just saying, right, no. Yes. They just want you to, they want you to choose. I mean, it's also, like you said, it's kind for me to say, if you had said, oh, let me think about it. I'll get back to you. Let me. And then what does she do? She follows up two weeks later. She has to make sure she's tracking you in her CRM.

You know, and like, it's in her pipeline. She's like, oh, I'm predicting. Yeah, exactly. All that stuff. Or you could just cut it and say, hey, look, You've done your great job with the presentation, really like the product. It's not the right time for me right now. So you can go ahead and put me on the no list. I really appreciate your time. I hope you have a great day. Like that's much better. Yeah. So I did that today. And it was good. And again, I think some of it was probably immersing myself into your framework. I want to ask another question. I seem to be making this entire thing about when to have a conversation. It's a big question. to have a conversation. But I'm going to come back to another element of it. This is a very difficult question to answer. I'm more interested in how you would think about it. There are certain things in relationships that do not get resolved. You don't get what you want or you realize that this is just part of the relationship that is maybe not going to change. It's something you're going to accept and it bothers you. And so there's this.

balance of every time I'm bothered by it, I would feel like, well, I guess this is, this is pertinent to experiences in my life that I've had. I would feel like, well, I just don't want to bring it up all the time. We've already talked about this. We sort of hit a place where we've said, like, this is something we're going to live with. But not saying anything is also problematic because there are times that that's what's operating in my brain. I'm feeling frustrated by that situation again. So how would you think through in those kind of situations, finding that balance where you're not constantly being, you know, just sort of beating your head against a wall versus ignoring how you feel. Well, we definitely don't want to ignore how we feel if that is

truly how we feel. That's the first thing that goes into my head. Second is when you feel bothered by something, that's one, that's one way of knowing if it's a conversation that needs to be had that it continues to bother you. You reach into your pocket and it's still there. It's hanging over your thoughts. You let time do the sifting and even after the sifting, it's still there. It's still there. That's right. And you go, okay, that to me is a clue that I need to say. So this is what it's going to be. I think from a framework standpoint, an approach, that's much better to say, hey, look, I've been thinking about this. You something you said like two weeks ago. And it's still bother me. That's why I need to tell you. That is a lot better than this nippy little

response that you might have had right in that moment. Is it sitting and still something doesn't sit well with me. You have to say it. If you don't, it will hover and stay in your pocket to the end of time. You'll still be probably 60 years old, 70, 80, 90, 100 years old and go, I should have said this. You know, because you're not going to forget that kind of stuff. You'll forget the little things. You won't forget that kind of stuff. And the closer they are to you, the longer you're going to remember it.

Think about it this one. Everybody remembers when they were on the playground at school. And there was somebody who said something to you that wasn't very nice. They made fun of your hair, your looks, your weight, how fast you were. whatever, and they gave you an insecurity at like age six. And you probably know that and can point it out and remember it for the end of time. I will never forget the time that I was eight. I just got new glasses and a girl came up to me and called me four eyes. I was crushed. All right, because I was so, it's the first time I'd ever had glasses. And it's like you remember that kind of stuff. So the point is

when you have those moments where it's really bothering you, you got to voice it because it's not going to go away or there's certain things in life that we're going to just carry it with us. So what do you do with that? Whenever you feel like you are in a place where I need to say something, that's when you approach them with exactly what you need to say. Because if it's just left unsaid, I don't think that's the kind of life we want to have.

You want to travel light. Why carry a bunch of baggage that is going to always hover and I feel like a lot of people go through life with a lot of baggage that they could have let go a long time ago. But rather than doing this and open up their hand, they clench it. Travel light, I like that. Yeah, in your conversations, for sure, in your communication, travel, travel light. The more you start getting in your head about other people. And there's a lot of people I know who kind of get neurotic, so to sense, after like conversations.

I shouldn't have said that. Oh, why did I say this? and they like over-explain and they overthink and then they, I think that's, I always say that's too much baggage. You need to travel light. Carry on. You need to bring a carry-on. Speaking of what you just said there, talk to me about over-explaining what it is,

what it sounds like and how to stop doing it. Or why to stop doing it. Well, both. How and why to stop doing it? Over-explaining is exactly what it's, I mean, it's self-describing. It's saying too much more than what the season. situation in normal social society would say it's called for. I have people, well, let's put it in a term of an example of us. If you ask me a question of what did I do yesterday and all of a sudden

I started talking about a mental breakdown I had at the age of 14 or something like that, I don't know, I'm making it up, that you'd be like, oh, that's a little, that's a little much. That's not responsible what we were we're going for. You know, those people who I've heard that they'll have like a pizza delivery or somebody. And then next thing you know, the pizza delivery guy is just there and he's like, bam, I got to go back to the car because they're just wanting to like fuse them as their therapist. Do you ever see the movie airplane? Yeah, I know you're talking about the scene I always think about is anybody who sits next to the pilot because he just won't stop talking. Like there's one scene where like the guy next to him is trying to light himself on fire

and there's another where you see like somebody hanging themselves because they're sitting next to him. They can't. They can't deal with it. They just can't do it. Yeah. So over explaining is natural. It's normal. And the reason why we do it is really more of an insecurity.

We feel that the more we say, the more will be liked. The more we will be believed. So we have this tendency to give more because we feel like what we said wasn't enough. And it's the same thing with even, I mean, you can make the metaphor a lot. different ways in life. But that's really what it comes down to. If I'm new at the office or I'm new at work or I'm leading a team, there's a tendency to kind of over-explain because you're afraid that you'll sound like you don't know enough of what you know about. But the weird thing about it is the more words it takes that tell the truth, the more it sounds like a lie, the more words it takes

for you to answer, the more it sounds like you really don't really know what you're talking about. It's a balance of things. And so what I teach is instead of being a waterfall of information and let your message just gets swept away, instead I want you to be a well, right, to where people can come to you and draw the knowledge and take exactly what they need. It's not too much.

It's not too little. They're able to come to you and ask and you're able to provide without feeling like you are over-explanning. because deep down it's really an insecurity. Yeah, I think so much over explaining that I've done in my life. And I still have some of it. It's one of the things I notice about you in the content you do and in this conversation. You say something and then you're done.

Right? Yeah. Which is really good. I will find I'll explain something and then often I'm scanning the other person or people and I'm not getting quite the response I want. So then I'll try and say it a slightly different way. And like you said, you end up sounding like you don't know what you're talking about and confused. And often, if it goes on too long, like people had to sit next to the guy in airplane. So how did you learn to do that? Yeah, you can definitely sound like you're floundering, you know, if you kind of get in that.

Yeah. Yeah. It's because, Eric, we're terrible judges. We're terrible subjective judges of our objective words. We are our own worst critic. And so we feel like I didn't get the reality. I wanted, just like he said. So let me, let me approach it a different way when they probably thought how you first said it was just fine. And most likely they're not even thinking about you to begin with, right? They're thinking of, in their head of like, do I look like I'm engaged? Or what am I having for lunch today? Like, or our brains are always going around, you know? I mean, how many people when they listen to a church sermon, they might listen to that sermon? I bet you 30%. The 70% is all the other things that they think they have going on in the week, what's happening, where they're eating for lunch, oh, we got family coming over?

I mean, it's hard. It's hard. And that's when you're sitting down, being still and being quiet, all right? It's not like everything else gets better. So a lot of it for me was, it's hereditary. My dad, very much this way, my grandfather's. There's a lot that I was raised around in the courtroom. I've seen, I mean, I train people on how to take depositions.

and so I teach on being very succinct in only answering the question. And here's the thing. I trust you, Eric, that if you wanted to know more, you'd ask more. I teach my witnesses, I'd say don't do their work for them. Don't try and guess and say, oh, I see where you're going. Let me continue to give you more information. Trust that if they want to know, they will ask. Like you just give them that.

You don't have to. to be the curator of the entire experience. It's not going to be that way. And so if they want to know, they'll ask. You know, people who over-explain because they feel like I didn't say enough in my head, so now I have to give more. And usually it ends up being in a bad place. But when you say something very concisely and very clean has kind of a clean edge to it, it doesn't just, you know, dribble out. It sounds better. It sounds more confident. It sounds more controlled. Doing this whole process of the videos I make, this whole different world from being an attorney,

it was hard for me to talk more often on the first few podcasts that I was on a few years ago because I didn't give enough. Because it was like some people would want you to continue to kind of talk and roll. Then you kind of get the rhythm of it. But otherwise, you have to believe in the words that you give. In the workbook and in the book that spawned,

the workbook, you talk about saying it, you have three rules, say it with control, say it with confidence, say it to connect. Do I have those right? Yeah, you got all of them right. Yeah, those are the, I was trying to put it into a framework that I could, I could teach to people of what, what's the best way to try and communicate? You talk about framing conversations. What is a frame for a conversation and how do we create one? When you look at a picture, most of the time there's a frame around it. And a painting will actually look different depending on the frame. That is on it. A frame enhances that imagery more than you think. It's in a good, and a lot of times makes it worse. Or makes it worse. Exactly right. But, you know, at museums, most of the time, we don't even

notice the frame because it's doing its job. It's enhancing the picture. A frame is a way of structuring a conversation to make sure that the ultimate destination is where I want to take it. It's not manipulating, that's not being pushy, that is setting up a world that provides safety and provides certainty for both you and me. If I can eliminate the variables of where the conversation is going to go, the safer you are and the more certain you're going to be of, okay, I'm good with talking about this. imagine being, you know, of what they call those spaghetti bowls, like at a traffic, huge metropolitan city. It's everybody's going every way.

Like, that's incredibly stressful just to look at. But if I know, no, no, no, no, we're going to go straight shot from A to B. You want to come with me? It's like, okay, I can do that. I know. What I like to say is you have those meetings where people go, all right, guys, we got a whole lot to talk about. And everybody kind of groans because nobody feels like you talked about that. You talked, but you didn't really get anywhere.

So when you have everything to say, you have nothing to say at the end of it. So what does a frame sound like? I break it down into three things. Number one is I tell the person where I want to go, what I want to talk about. That's it. Just what I want to talk about. Two, I tell them the end. I mean, I tell them what I want to walk away from.

That's what I have like, that's the phrase I like to use. What I want to walk away from, take away from the conversation. I mean, what's the one nugget of my purpose and what I need from this conversation? What am I taking with me? What am I putting in my pocket underneath my arm and taking it with me? Three, I get your buy-in into the conversation. Make sure you feel good about it. So what does that sound like?

It could be as simple as, hey, Eric, I'd like to talk to you about what you said last Wednesday. And I want to walk away from that conversation feeling like you and I are on the same page. Can we do that? and now you know Eric I'm not trying to talk to you about X, Y, and Z. You don't have all this anxiety. Imagine me saying,

hey, can I talk to you about some stuff on like later today? I just got some stuff on my mind. It's, you're like stuff, what are you talking about? That's like me texting you and go,

we need to talk. Exactly. That's what I was thinking that phrase that causes dread. Yeah. We need to talk. And you're like, oh my God. Nobody gets that and goes,

yes, this is the best news ever. Eric wants to talk. This is so great. Yeah. Like nobody high fives about that. They go, okay, something's terribly wrong is what we do. And because usually it doesn't mean anything good. So if I can eliminate that anxiety, the uncertainty, we want to know, is there a bear in the bush?

Like, what's, why do you want to talk? If I can put that out front, the better of a conversation we're going to have. So it can be positive. It can also address things that are more negative. Hey, Eric, there's something that's really on my mind that's been bothering me and I want to talk to you about it. It's about the comment you made about two weeks ago at that meeting. And what I want to walk away from is you knowing that I didn't appreciate that.

And I really want to talk about it. Can we do that? You're not going to say no. I've never had any time you say, can we do that? Can we do that? Like, everybody just kind of nods. And now. you know exactly what the conversation is going to be about and exactly what the point is.

How do we know when the conversation is done when we've checked the box of that understanding or whatever it is? It's setting the goalpost. What would be one takeaway from this conversation that people could do today that would improve their communication? Well, people can learn from our conversation today is that timing is everything when it comes to conversation. Well, you can really nailed down when to have a conversation. Not just when you want to have it or when they want to have it, but there's a balance that we have been able to talk about here that's going to give really practical tips and help a lot of people. And the good news is it doesn't matter when they hear the podcast. It's going to apply no matter what. Beautiful. Well, thank you so much.

You and I are going to continue in the post-show conversation where we're going to talk about your three rules that you give in your book about having better conversations. conversations. Listeners, if you'd like access to that and add free episodes and the joy of supporting the show, go to one you feed.net slash join. Jefferson, thanks so much. It's been a real pleasure. Thanks for having me, Eric. Thank you so much for listening to the show. If you found this conversation helpful, inspiring, or thought-provoking, I'd love for you to share it with a friend. Sharing from one person to another is the lifeblood of what we do. We don't have a big budget, and I'll I'm certainly not a celebrity, but we have something even better, and that's you.

Just hit the share button on your podcast app or send a quick text with the episode link to someone who might enjoy it. Your support means the world, and together we can spread wisdom one episode at a time. Thank you for being part of the one you feed community.