The One You Feed - How to Manage Our Internal Chatter with Ethan Kross

Episode Date: August 16, 2024

In this episode, Ethan Kross explores various tools for how to manage our internal chatter and work with negative emotions. He brings a wealth of knowledge and insight, making complex psychological concepts accessible and actionable for audiences seeking to navigate their internal dialogue more skillfully.  His practical strategies are sure to enhance your emotional well-being and improve mental resilience.  In this episode, you will be able to: Master the art of managing your emotions and thoughts effectively Discover the powerful benefits of distant self-talk for mental resilience Uncover the role of nature in reducing internal chatter and negative emotions Implement practical strategies for emotional regulation in everyday life Explore the impact of environmental cues on your mood and emotional well-being To learn more, click here! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

When the problem isn't happening to us, we can be really shrewd. But when it's happening to us, we can often make bad decisions, and that's where the power of distance resides. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking.

Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction. How they feed their good wolf. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really No Really podcast is to get the true answers

to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor. What's in the museum of failure? And does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to reallyknowreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. The Really Know Really podcast.

Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Ethan Cross, one of the world's leading experts on controlling the conscious mind. He's an award-winning professor at the University of Michigan and the Ross School of Business, and also the director of the Emotion and Self-Control Laboratory. In addition to countless television appearances, Ethan's research has been featured in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, USA Today, and many others. Today, Ethan and Eric discuss his book, Chatter, The Voice in Our Head, Why It Matters, and How to Harness It. Hi, Ethan. Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, Eric. I've been looking forward

to this conversation. Yeah, I'm really excited. Your book is called Chatter, the voice in our head, why it matters and how to harness it, which is right in the basic ideas that we talk about on the show. But before we get into the book, let's start like we always do with a parable. There is a grandfather who's talking with his granddaughter and he says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the granddaughter stops and she thinks about it for a second. She looks up at her grandfather. She says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the

grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. Well, there are two thoughts that immediately come to mind. One is just how wonderful that parable scaffolds onto the content of my research and my book. You know, there's the good wolf and the bad wolf, or you could think of the good side or the dark side to our inner voice, the coach, the critic. And so I think we often do feel like in life we are battling between these two forces. And the big question we face is how do we tilt the balance in the direction we want to spend most of our life living?

And I think for most of us, that is in the direction of the more positive wolf. So I think that really connects that parable to what we know is a struggle that many of us, almost maybe even all of us face at times. But the other point that it raises is a more nuanced one about emotion that I think a lot about lately, which is I think many of us reflexively want to rid our lives of negative emotions, the negative wolf, and only really dance with that positive wolf, the happy joy and so forth. And I think our emotional life, I don't think I know, is more complicated than that in the sense that negative emotions and small doses can actually be amazingly useful to us.

So we don't want to rid our life entirely of that bad wolf if you want to stick with that metaphor, right? Like if I don't experience a small ping of anxiety before a big presentation, the presentation often doesn't go as well if I do have a small ping of anxiety before a big presentation, the presentation often doesn't go as well if I do have a small ping of anxiety, right? Because that negative emotion is information that's motivating me to attend to the situation and practice and prepare. So I don't think we should try to rid ourselves of that dark side of us, that negative wolf, however we want to describe it. But I think we want to figure out how to coexist with that negative wolf or minimize their impact on us,

but recognize that there's still value that comes from it, if that makes sense. It totally makes sense. And it kind of leads me into where I want to start this conversation, which is around the way that thoughts and emotions work. You know, they co-arise together in essence. You know, we talk about the thought and emotion, but they tend to sort of show up together. You know, one may precede the other. But the question I have for you is,

there are two sort of schools out there I've seen of working with emotions and working with thoughts. And I'm vastly oversimplifying here. But one school is sort of saying, look, you just be with what is, you allow it, you give it space, but you be with what is, you don't resist, you just, you kind of let it be there. The other school is more get in there and, you know, work with your thoughts, try and, you know, turn your thoughts down or turn them up or change them this way or that way. And that's the approach. And I'm kind of curious how you think about that.

I'm not going to say it's a split because I don't think it's that obvious, but there does seem to be sort of, do I start with emotions? Do I start with emotions? Do I start with thoughts? Does it depend? You know, how do you think about that? Yeah, I think you're capturing an important tension that exists not only in the field scientifically, but I think also more broadly in our culture where you have certain approaches that really emphasize, let's call it the mindfulness approach.

Be in the moment, accept, don't try to engage with a thought, let it go and move on. And then there's another camp that is much more coming out of the cognitive tradition, cognitive therapy, which is, hey, you can change how you think to change how you feel. I think it is unfortunate that we have splintered into these camps. Those two approaches that you described, which I just summarized back to you, these represent two different tools that we possess for managing our emotional lives. And I don't privilege one tool over another. Different tools are useful for different people in different situations. And so when I hear people say, hey, the only thing you well, first of all,

let me say, if I hear some anyone say the only thing you need to do, I stop at the only because although we often want single magic bullet solutions, none exist as far as I've been able to deduce, right? What we know is that we have evolved this capacity to use the very technical term, drive ourselves nuts at times, to get stuck ruminating and worrying and catastrophizing. So we have that tendency that exists. But what we have also evolved is a boatload of tools that we can use to manage these negative conversations we have with ourselves in aversive states. to manage these negative conversations we have with ourselves in aversive states.

And so if you come to me and you ask me, like, what tools can I give you to give you the best chance of succeeding and succeeding in a sense of living a fulfilling, productive life? I'm going to give you access to the whole toolkit, right? Why am I going to limit you to one tool? A carpenter doesn't try to build a house with just a hammer. They have multiple toolboxes that they bring to the job site. And I think the same is true when it comes to our emotional lives. We try to oversimplify things sometimes and say, hey, this is the one thing you need to do. But in fact, that's not true. Yeah. Yeah. I agree a agree 100%. And, you know, I keep wanting to try and simplify it. I do work with clients. And I, you know, I want to,

I want to make it like, well, here's your four step method, but it just never reduces that way. I did think, though, that later in the book, you talked about conversations with other people. And you talked about that there's two needs in conversation with other people. And you talked about that there's two needs in conversation with other people. And this really resonated with me. And it resonated with me about the topic that we're talking about here. And what you said was that people in a conversation, if they're going to talk to somebody else about a struggle they're having, they have an emotional need, and they have a cognitive need. And I really love that because it sort of said, look, it's not one or the other. Both those needs are there. And for it to be a really productive and

satisfying conversation, you've got to have both those elements. So talk to me a little bit about what you mean by emotional need and cognitive need in that way. Well, we know from lots of research that when people experience chatter, which I use as a term to just capture getting stuck in a negative thought loop. So if it's a negative thought loop about the past, that's rumination. If it's the future or present, we call that worry. But you're just spinning. You're trying to find someone else to share that chatter with, to talk to that other person about what's going through their head. There are a couple exceptions to that rule. We tend not to want to talk about certain kinds of trauma or experiences involving shame, but all the other sources of chatter, the anxiety, the sadness, the anger, we want to find someone to chat with. And what we know is that our intuitions regarding what makes for a good productive conversation are often off. So many people think that the key to

having a productive, useful conversation about your chatter is to find someone to vent your emotions to. Just unload what is going through your head, get it off your chest. We know that when you vent to someone else about what you're feeling, this can be really good for satisfying those social needs that we have, those social and emotional needs. It feels good to know that there's someone out there in the world that is willing to take the time to hear what I've gone through to validate my experience. And indeed, research shows that when you vent to someone else, that often strengthens a friendship bonds between people. The problem is that if all you do is vent your emotions, if all you do is,

that son of a, you wouldn't believe what that guy asked me on the last podcast. It was so rude and obnoxious, and they said they wouldn't do it. Can you believe it? And then you're like, oh, that sounds terrible, Ethan. I would hate to be in that. Yeah, you're damn right. You know, if that's all you do, you leave that conversation feeling close and connected to the person you talk to, but you're just as upset, if not more upset by the time you're finished talking than when you started. The best kinds of conversations when it comes to chatter do two things. You spend a little time expressing your emotions, getting it out, letting the other person learn about what you've gone through. But then at a

certain point in the conversation, that person you're talking to starts working to help you broaden your perspective. They start helping you try to reframe your experience. So you might say to me, hey, Ethan, wow, that sounds terrible. I've been in situations like that. You know, the good news is they're one out of a hundred. And when that happens, here's how I think about it. So when we experience chatter, we get so stuck in a tunnel vision mindset. We're thinking about that problem. We can't break out of that to think differently about what we're going through in ways that might make us feel better. And other people are in a prime position to help us do it because they've got the objectivity. They've got the distance from our problems to think more rationally about it.

So, you know, oftentimes talking can go terribly wrong, but it also has the potential to go really right. And what I think knowing about these scientific principles do for people is it does two things. I'll speak in the first person from my own experience. You know, I used to be someone before I knew the science, like so many other people, I get upset, I instantly call this person, I call that person, I would just look for people to share it with. And it didn't always make me feel better. Now that I know this science, one thing it allows me to do is I am exceptionally deliberate about who I contact when I need chatter support. Many people that I love dearly, they love me. I don't talk to them about chatter at all. You know, it's about the kids and about work. I keep it at that level because I know

if I go into the chatter with them, they're just going to make it worse. They don't intend to, but by just getting me to vent, it's just going to not be a good situation. So there are like four or five people that I know I can trust to really help listen to me and then broaden my perspective. And like that's my chatter board, right? And I avail myself of that resource quite a bit and it's incredibly useful so that's one take home the other take home is when people come to me for support when they hey you think i can i get your you know can i get your take on this i got to talk to you about this i'm not helpless and just listening and trying to figure out what to do

i've got a game plan i know i'm going to listen for a bit and i'm going to start feeling out the person who's talking to me to see when they're ready for me to give them advice. And there's an art to doing that. You know, if my wife comes to me with a problem, and she's going on and on. And you know, at some point, I might say, totally, I'm so sorry that happened. I have a thought, can I give it to you? And sometimes she'll say, No, just listen, I just want to keep going. And then I'll let her go. But at other times, she's like, please, yeah, tell me what I should do. I want some advice. And so you've got to feel that out a little bit. But this is science giving us a blueprint

for how to interact profitably with other people when it comes to chatter. And I think that is a really valuable commodity to have. Yeah. And what I love about that whole idea there is there is a stereotype out there of women just want to vent. And they get frustrated because they feel like they vent to their male partner and their male partner immediately just wants to solve it. Yeah. And what I love about what you're saying is, well, you're both kind of right. That's right. You know, that emotional need is real, that venting, that connecting, that's an important part of it. And I've often found

until that's established, the second part can't take off. But there is a point where it does make sense to say, okay, good. Now we've sort of gotten our feelings out about this. Is there anything we can do? Is there a way we can think about this differently? And I was a recovering heroin addict, or I guess I am. I found in AA that the people that I talked to that were the most helpful did both those things, right? They didn't immediately cut you off and be like, well, what you should do is this. But at a certain point, they went, well, Eric, let's look at this slightly differently. And so I think that balance is so important. And I think it also, for me, pointed to internally for myself, needing that same balance, right? Needing to say, okay, I'm going to allow myself to feel what I feel. It's okay to feel what I feel, not try and squash the emotion by

changing my perspective immediately, but then not getting stuck there. Then moving into, okay, are there ways that I can cognitively think about this differently? Are there tools I can use? So I just love that part of the book, but I kind of started you near the end of your book. Let's hop back up a little bit and talk about, you know, how we work more skillfully with chatter. Your book has a ton of tools in it. And I love that at the end of the book, you sort of summarized all of the tools that we can use. But let's talk about what sort of things cause chatter for us most commonly. And then maybe we'll move into some

of the tools. Well, we all have different chatter triggers. And I think that's one thing to recognize. Just like we have different tastes and food and partners, we have different kinds of experiences that light us up. So, you know, for me, it may be my kids' well-being and health. I don't worry at all about money stuff or work stuff when it comes to their health. Chatter, chatter, chatter, right? But for other people, it's the exact opposite. Two common features, though though of chatter triggers are uncertainty and a lack of control. So not being certain about what is going to happen or how something you did might affect you and not having much control over it. Those are like sparks that allow chatter to ignite. What's interesting about those two properties is that we're living through a time right now filled with a ton of uncertainty and

a lack of control in the form of COVID and the pandemic, right? We don't know what's going to happen. We don't have much control either. And it's not surprising, therefore, that chatter in the form of anxiety and depression is spiking quite a bit over the past year and a half or however long we've been in this mess. I think it's a little bit longer than a year and a half. So those are some conditions that give rise to chatter. And you know, when we experience that chatter, we just get zoomed in very narrowly on whatever it is that's bothering us. But what we've learned that is so exciting. And to go back to what where we started earlier on juxtaposing, accepting emotions or trying to change it as these two different approaches that some people subscribe only to one or another. We know that there are so many different tools

people can use to manage this chatter. So it really is handicapping us if we try to restrict ourselves, I think, to just one or two approaches. I like to organize these tools into three categories just to give, to try to simplify the space. There are things we could do on our own, ways of shifting our thinking that can be useful. There are ways of interacting with other people skillfully, like we just described, right? Like talking, but also getting advice. And then there are environmental tools, which I find fascinating, which are ways of interacting with our physical spaces that affect how we talk to ourselves and think from the outside in, which can be quite powerful too. And I think knowing about what these tools are, what it does for us is it gives us the

opportunity to be much more deliberate about how we control our chatter. So people often ask me, hey, do you ever experience chatter, Ethan? You know, you're an expert in it, in studying it and controlling it. And, you know, I usually pause. Yeah, of course, I experienced it at times. I'm a human. But what I think I've gotten really good at over the years is the moment I start to detect that the chatter is brewing, I shut it down by using these different tools. And it's often different combinations, but having them at my disposal allows me to just recruit them right away to muffle this chatter response rather than let it really take over in ways that can be truly debilitating. Let me get a little concrete

though, because I'm talking in a very abstract way about all this. So what are some things you can do to regulate chatter on your own? I'll tell you about a few of my favorite tools. One category of them we call distancing tools. So when you're experiencing chatter, you're super zoomed in on the problem. What we've learned is that if you could zoom out and get a broader perspective, that can be really useful. One of my favorite tools is something called Distant Self-Talk. And what this tool involves is trying to give yourself advice about how to work on a problem like you would give your best friend advice. And using language, harnessing the structure of language to help you do that

effortlessly. And what it involves doing is using your own name and the second person pronoun you to coach yourself through a problem. Doing this silently, I should give that caveat, not out loud while you're walking down a city street. All right, Ethan, how are you going to manage this situation? What are you going to do? Here's what you should do. What we find in our studies is that it's often much easier for us to give advice to other people than to take our own advice. You know, do as I say, not as I do. This is a very strong response that we see playing out across lots and lots of studies. What distance self-talk does is it leverages the structure of language to automatically shift your perspective and get you to start relating to yourself, talking to yourself like you would talk to another person.

If you think about when we use names and second-person pronouns, words like you, we use names and second-person pronouns virtually exclusively when we think about and refer to other people. So the link in our mind between a name and someone else, super duper strong. And the idea is that when you use your own name to reflect on your problems, that's switching you into this coaching mode where you're not getting stuck in all of those irrational thoughts that you are probably ashamed to even articulate to someone else, let alone tell your best friend and said, you're like, all right, here's how you're going to manage a situation. You've done this a thousand times before you're going to do it. And then you have dinner and you're going to get a good night's sleep. And that's in fact, what we see playing out

in our studies. So, so that's usually my first go-to strategy. Actually, if I find myself getting a little bit of chatter, all right, Ethan, what are you going to do? And it snaps me out of the thought loop. I found that really interesting, that idea of distant self-talk and using you. And it took me back to early in recovery. And when we were in recovery groups, we used to say all the time, use I statements. I feel this. And when I heard you saying, like, use the you and, you know, distance self-talk. And what I realized was that what we were after in early recovery

was connection back to ourselves, not distancing from ourselves, because we've been doing that with addiction so effectively. And we had distanced ourselves from all the consequences from all of our emotions. So in that case, we wanted the opposite of distant self-talk, at least in the beginning, to bring us closer to. But your point is how effective this is when we're dealing with a problem. Are you the person who came up with the term Solomon's paradox? Yeah, it was a paper with one of my students. We coined that phrase. You've got to share what that is because I must have read about that six or seven years ago, and I have used it countless times, because it's so brilliant. So tell us about Solomon's Paradox. Well, so Solomon's Paradox is named after the Bible's

King Solomon, who was famously adept at giving really great advice to other people, and leaders from all over the world would travel to his kingdom to get his wisdom. But if you look carefully at Solomon's own life, he was a terrible decision maker. He made a rash of really bad decisions. He got stuck in these like love triangles would be generous. It was more like love octagons with different women and, you know, built them temples. And it ultimately led to his kingdom's demise. And I talk about this in my book, you see this playing out with so many people who we think are wise. You know, Abraham Lincoln struggled endlessly when it came to his own problems with

depression, but was able to give his buddy who is struggling with depression, great advice. Bill Clinton, Monica, you know, we can go to contemporary culture too with Monica Lewinsky and find all sorts of illustrations of people who can be very wise in one context, but very unwise in another. And so it really speaks to something I think fundamental about us, which is when the problem isn't happening to us, we can be really shrewd. But when it's happening to us and we get overly zoomed in and sucked in, we can often make bad decisions. And that's where the power of distance resides because we have evolved the ability to use tools to counteract Solomon's paradox, to fight against it. And distance self-talk is one example of such a tool. I want to go back, Eric, to the point you made, though, about recovery and taking ownership

of your experience. I think it's such an important point to emphasize because all the tools that we talk about are useful in particular contexts. It doesn't mean they're useful across the board. I would never tell someone that, hey, what you need to do moving forward is always talk to yourself in the third person, right? That would not be productive. There's a time and place to do it. And the time and place is when you are overly zoomed in on a problem. In some contexts, though, being immersed can be amazingly helpful, like when you're experiencing joy and other kinds of positive states. You don't want to distance there. You want to immerse yourself further.

Or in your example, if you are already distanced too much, then you want to reel a person back in and heat them up a little bit. And so I think it's just useful to have that perspective on how all of these tools work. There's a time and place for them. And I think that idea of distance is so helpful. You talked about one way of doing it, but you share other ways. You know, one of my favorite questions of all time is like, will this matter in five hours, five days, five weeks, five months, like, which is a time distancing tool, right? Yeah. And that's actually my second personal go-to tool. We call that temporal distancing or more colloquially mental time travel. And I find

this really useful. So first I'll do, all right, Ethan, how are you going to manage this? And then I'll usually, while still using my own name, I'll think, Ethan, how are you going to feel about this next week or next month or next year or 10 years from now? And what that does is it breaks us out of this tunnel vision that is so debilitating. And it makes it clear to us that oftentimes what we're going through is temporary. It'll eventually fade. We recognize that because we've experienced life before. And we've learned that usually there's some exceptions,

but in most cases, even the worst emotions fade with time. And when we have that recognition, that does something really powerful for the human mind. It gives us hope. And hope is a powerful antidote for chatter. Now that's going forward in time. And that's probably the most commonly discussed form of mental time travel as a tool. but you can also go back in time in ways that are productive. I actually do this a lot with COVID. So I'll think when I was mired in despair, washing fruit with Clorox wipes and doing all that kind of stuff, some of us did early on in the pandemic i would think to myself it's not so good but what about like the the last pandemic in 1917 or 18 yeah you know things were arguably much worse back then no uber no zoom what about the the bubonic plague like my god that was way way worse than what we're going through right now and so that's another way of broadening my perspective to put in perspective the actual magnitude of what we're experiencing, which, you know, if you look in the big grand scheme of things, vaccines in record time, technology, it could be much, much worse. I'm Jason Alexander.

And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you. And the one bringing back the woolly mammoth.

Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Bryan Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really, No Really, sir.

Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really No Really. Yeah, really. No really. Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You alluded to another type of backwards time travel when you were just sort of off the cuff talking to yourself, which was you've handled this a thousand times before, and that's a big one for me, is I just look back.

It's almost inevitable that at least once per week, I will start to feel my stress level about getting everything I have to get done, done, goes up and it starts rising. And then I just remind myself, Eric, this has happened every week for 20 years. And every single time, it has worked out. And that sort of backwards time travel is really helpful to me.

It's funny because I use the same exact reframe, Eric. I find it to be incredibly helpful. I've literally given hundreds of presentations over the course of my career. And inevitably, if it's a high stakes event, you know, very, very big audience or a kind of audience that I know is going to be gunning for me in the academic world, you know, a pretty competitive environment, I'll still begin to hear those whispers of doubt perk up in my head. And then I remind myself, Ethan, you've given hundreds of talks. You've never, you've never lost it.

It's never gone. And having that broader perspective and actual evidence, it's amazingly anxiolytic. I mean, it really takes the edge off. And that's what I love about these tools, right? We've talked about two. There are like 27 that I cover in the book. Many of these tools are very easy to implement, right? Now, there are some tools I talk about that are more effortful and they require more time

and engagement. But a lot of these, these are just very subtle shifts that can often make the difference between getting caught in that negative thought spiral in a way that allows it to take over and regaining control of our mind in ways that can be really helpful to us. And so that's what I love about so many of these tools. Yeah. Let's hit a few more of them in the tools you can implement on your own category, and then we can move to some of the others. We've hit distant self-talk. We've sort of talked about imagine advising a friend. Let's talk about writing expressively. Let's been studied, this is a form of journaling about negative experiences. And there've been lots of research on this, which shows that writing about your deepest thoughts and feelings about something negative you've experienced can be helpful for allowing you to essentially create a story that helps you understand what you've gone through and then leave that experience behind and move on with your life. And one of the reasons why we think expressive

writing is helpful is because it is a type of distancing tool. When you stop for a moment and try to put pen to the page, or I guess fingers to the keyboard nowadays, and pen a story, you yourself, you are the character of that story. So you are now writing about yourself. And there's distance that that creates when you're thinking about yourself as a character in a story. So that gives you some mental space. But another thing that writing does is it it helps give us structure to our experience. Because when you when you write about an experience, there's a form that that takes, like, we often think in a very fragmented way, very emotional.

What? What? Oh, my. You know, just pinging negative thoughts and images all over the place. But that's not how we write. We learn to write with, you know, there's a subject, a verb, oftentimes a punctuation mark. And when we write about things, there's often like a beginning, middle, and end. And when we write about things, there's often like a beginning, middle and end.

So writing helps us create a narrative that helps us do something that we're highly motivated to do, which is make meaning out of our lives. And that ability to make meaning, this is something that sometimes we really struggle with. And writing can help bring that process back on track in ways that are really helpful. Yeah, I think to your point, I often think of thoughts as being really slippery. On one hand, they sort of take over. And yet, when you try and grab onto a lot of them, they tend to be kind of, you know, like I said, slippery, which is why I think that writing idea sort of slows the whole process down a little bit and allows a little bit more clarity. Completely agree. Slowing it down is, I think, a great way of describing it because we can often think quite fast and in a very disorganized, incoherent way. And that's just

not how you write about things. And so that's another kind of distancing tool that I talk about. That tends to be a more effortful tool because you do have to stop and sit down, find the time to actually write about that experience. But it could be a really useful one. So what about changing the view? This is another slightly more effortful one than say, maybe just switching the tense you're using from I to you. But what is changing the view? When we think about negative experiences, past or future, we often have a mental snapshot of that event in our mind. So if I asked you to think back to the last time you put your foot in your mouth in a conversation, I don't know if you've ever done that before. I have. I

think about last time I did that, it was just a couple hours ago. And I actually, right now I'm seeing, I have a snapshot of that experience. I'm, I could see the person's face who I didn't mean to insult, but did. And what we know is that that image that we have in our mind is malleable. The more emotionally experiences, the more you replay that event in a, from a first person point of view, you're right back there in the moment, re-experiencing it as though it's happening all over again. But what we also know people can do is they can essentially take a step back in their own imagination and see themselves in the experience. They can adopt a fly on the wall perspective where they see the bigger picture. They see the whole scene. They're looking at

themselves in that event, doing the thing they did, almost like a director in a movie, like watching the actors interact. And that's another way of getting distance, right? That's another way of breaking yourself out of that very immersed state and thinking about your experience from a more objective standpoint. And it actually often goes hand in hand with linguistic distancing or the distant self-talk. So in some studies where we've told people to talk about a negative experience using their name, try to work through it. When they're done, we have them think about the event and tell us, hey, to what extent were you actually right back there reliving the event

through your own eyes versus seeing yourself in it? The more you use your own name, the more you actually see yourself from far. So these different kinds of distance are related. I'm going to change directions for a second because I want to hit a word that's in the title of your book before we forget it or before I forget it, which is you use the word harness. And I really like that word a lot. I'd love to hear why that's the term you chose for dealing with chatter is harnessing it. And I suppose we could say the same thing for negative emotions. You probably assume you might use a similar word many people, when they learn about the negative implications that chatter can have for their life, how it can undermine their ability to think and perform, create friction in their relationships, negatively impact their physical health, the immediate question they ask me is, how do I silence this inner voice? And what I respond to them is, hey, that's not something you would want to do, given all of the amazing things that our inner voice actually does for us. We haven't talked much about this, but your inner voice is a tool, a tool of the mind that is really, really helpful.

Helps you keep information active in your head, simulate and plan, control yourself, create narratives. And so the challenge here is not to get rid of this vital human capacity. Instead, the challenge is to figure out how do you wheel that tool of the mind more effectively. And harness is a word that I think captures that. It's have got this tool, this ability to silently use language to reflect in my life, and it's not being properly deployed. For whatever reason, the program is not working properly. I'm getting the equivalent of error messages, and it's making me really upset. How can I regain control of that tool, harness it? But you don't want to throw the tool out altogether.

So that was the reason for choosing the word harness. Yeah, I love it because I think it speaks to what you're saying. Like the brain isn't going to turn off. The inner voice is not going to turn off. It's just, it's not the way the brain works. And to your point, we wouldn't want it to. And emotions aren't going to go away, but there is tremendous energy available there. I know you're often thought of as a emotional regulation expert. And the way, if somebody asked me to find emotional regulation, I would just say working with my thoughts and emotions skillfully enough that I could act according to my values, right? And so I love

that idea of harness because it means I can sort of point this entire apparatus at my values and I can use that energy that's coming from all this to sort of move me in that direction. And when I thought about that word harness in your title, I went, that's kind of the word I've been looking for. Absolutely. We're thinking about things exactly the same way. This comes to me and I don't quite recall if it was in your book or not, but it makes me think of a question. I think I got it from acceptance and commitment therapy, maybe interviewing Stephen C. Hayes or someone, but it was this question of, is this thought useful or not? And I love that idea to your point. Like we may define chatter as becoming maladaptive, but the internal voice, the thoughts, sometimes they are very useful.

And so I do think it's helpful to ask that question, is this useful or not? If it is good, let's stay with it. And if it's not, then let's start talking about deploying some of the tools you're talking about. Absolutely. I completely agree with that. You know, another distinction along those lines that I personally find very useful is to also think about what aspects of your thoughts and beliefs you can control and what you can't. So I don't think you have control or human beings can control the thoughts that pop into our head. I don't have any evidence suggesting how to control or how to determine why it is that I'm walking down the street to work and a very dark, inappropriate thought runs through my head. I don't know where

that comes from. And I don't think we figured out. Maybe one day we will. I'm sure we will. But we don't right now. So I can't control the thoughts that pop into my head. But what I do have enormous control over is how I engage with those thoughts once they arise. And I've got a fantastic toolbox of skills that I could draw on to push those thoughts in different directions. I can accept it. I can reframe it. I can go deeper into it.

You know, lots of things that I can do. And that's my playground. And so I think just being aware of that framework for how to think about thinking can be really useful because some people get down on themselves. They start experiencing chatter because a particular thought popped into their head. I remember teaching a class a few years ago. It was a class on self-control and emotion regulation. And I posed a question to the students.

What if you have the temptation to do something that you don't want to do? And in this case, it was like eating after 10 p.m., right? But let's say you're on a diet. You want to do. And in this case, it was like eating after 10 p.m., right? But let's say you're on a diet. You want to be regulated there. So what if you have the temptation, but you are actually effective at not giving into that thought? About half the class thought that just because you had the temptation meant that you hadn't truly exercised self-control. And my response to them is, you are setting a really high bar for being controlled in your life. You know, if that were the case for me, I'm a complete self-control failure every hour of my existence because I'm

constantly experiencing temptations and thoughts that maybe I don't want to be having. I don't always give into them. In fact, I usually don't. And I think that's where self-control resides. Totally. I mean, sit down and meditate for five minutes and you learn very quickly. Like, I think it's actually one of the benefits of meditation that is often undersold is that you sit there and you go, okay, I am not going to think. And then it just happens. It just goes and goes. And then again, you're like, I'm going to pay attention to my breath and they just happens. Yeah. It just goes and goes. And then again, you're like, I'm going to pay attention to my breath. And they just go. And you realize very quickly,

like at least the I is I think of myself is not running that show. That factory is producing on its own. And so, yeah, since I can't control that part of it, I can just relax around that. That's right. And it is so liberating. It's incredibly liberating to realize, all right, yeah, I just had that temptation or I had that thought.

Okay, but I didn't act on it or I didn't let it take over. I mean, it really, I think, lowers the bar for being satisfied with oneself in ways that I think are truly healthy and adaptive. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer.

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or wherever you get your podcasts. I think one of the things that is most difficult for people, and I hear this a lot from people that I do work with, is, yeah, I remembered all those tools two hours after it was over. Do you have any ideas or has any of your research led us to any insight into how we can more quickly recognize, okay, I'm in the middle of a chatter storm and I've got tools I can use use because that seems to be a very sort of common stumbling block. Two responses to that excellent question that taps into, I think, that I agree is a real issue that a lot of people struggle with. First, one of the reasons why I

find so many of the tools in that little skill box, I talk about that toolbox, so exciting is because they are easy to use. Now, just because they're easy should not in any way diminish their potential benefits. There's a lot of complexity and science that went into the identification of these different tools. But some of them are just simple to use. And one of the things we know about people is the easier it is to do it, the more likely they will be to do it. And so I think just being aware of what some of those easy to use tools are can be really empowering and potentially really useful. that mental time travel that you skillfully, proactively use when you detect chatter, and that I do as well. If I wasn't aware of that tool, I would just have to kind of wait to stumble on it. But I know how that works. I can implement that in a matter of seconds. That's not an exaggeration how quickly that tool is to use. Same thing with distant self-talk. We've done neuroscience work on that, looking at how quickly in the brain you see a reduction

in emotional reactivity. It's within milliseconds because it's so quick to use these tools. So that's one thought. The other thing to keep in mind is this. There are things you can do to enhance the likelihood that you will use different tools when you're struggling with chatter. And so there's work on something called implementation intentions or creating if-then plans, I think is really fabulous scientific work. And what it involves doing is you come up with an if-then plan that you rehearse ahead of time. If I find myself experiencing chatter about work, then I'm going to use distant self-talk, mental time travel, and talk to a chatter buddy.

And you rehearse that plan a little bit. And what ends up happening then when you come up with this simple plan, it's a commitment device that essentially links specific tools with a specific situation, enhancing the likelihood that you use those tools in that situation. tools in that situation. And so if listeners are struggling to use the tools in the moment, I would encourage them to try creating some of those if-then plans and then see if that makes a difference. Yeah. I think for some of those chatter ones, for me, it's not an if-then, it's a when-then. When I experience chatter about work then, there's no if about it. It's coming sooner or later. I agree. I think those are really, really helpful tools. And I think there's something about doing that and repeating that. As a professor, you may know what this term is called. I know it has a name. I can't

think of what it is. But it's basically like if you think about buying a Toyota, you all of a sudden start seeing Toyotas everywhere. It's not that there's any more of them. It's just that you're noticing them. And I think those implementation instructions can do a similar thing. We're priming ourselves to look for chatterstorms. Absolutely. It is remarkable to me how much time we spend dealing with negative emotions and stumbling our way through those experiences, right? Trying to find ways of managing it. I think that's the case for most people when they're experiencing negative emotions. And yeah, the more you know about these tools, the less stumbling you'll do and the more deliberate and skillful you can be about managing those states.

Let's shift into talking about a couple tools that involve the environment. Because like you said, I think these are very interesting. And as I've done a lot of work on habit study with people, we recognize more and more environmental cues are so hugely important. I love this work. And I find it so fascinating that there are ways of interacting with our physical spaces that affect our internal conversations. And there are a couple of different tools that exist here. We'll deal with the elephant in the room first, which is nature and green spaces. Lots of people probably have had the experience of enjoying going for a walk in a park or a tree-filled setting. What we know now from lots and lots of research is that exposing yourself to green spaces doesn't just kind of like feel good. The benefits are much deeper than that when it comes to dealing with chatter. Going for a walk in a green setting can help you manage your

chatter and it can do so in two ways. One thing it does is it helps restore your attention. So when you're experiencing chatter, all of your attention is devoted to the problem you're worried or ruminating about. That's why when you try to read a book or watch a movie when you're dealing with chatter, you often don't remember anything you've read or seen because your mind's somewhere else. What nature does is it surrounds us with really interesting things that gently draw our attention away from our chatter onto. So you're going for a walk, you're checking out the leaves and the bushes, and you're not carefully scrutinizing the geometrical structure of the hedges, right? You're just kind of taking it in. And what that does for you is it gives you the

opportunity for your attention to restore. So by the end of the walk, you have more attention to work with your chatter. Now that's one way it can help. The other way nature can help is by providing us with opportunities to experience the emotion of awe, which is an emotion we experience when we're in the presence of something that is much bigger than us, that's vast and indescribable. tree that's been there for hundreds of years. You can also experience awe from other things in the world, like looking at a skyscraper, or if it's me, if I'm contemplating how we can get in airplanes and fly safely, like that fills me with awe. I still don't quite understand how that all works. And what we know happens when you experience awe is it leads to what we call shrinking of the self. So you feel smaller when you're contemplating something vast and indescribable. And when you feel smaller, so does your chatter. So that's another way of

broadening our perspective. So those are some environmental tools. The other one that I would slip in really quick because it's so easy to use and many people find it useful is organizing and cleaning. When we are experiencing chatter, we often feel like we don't have control over our thoughts and feelings. Our mind is racing. We can't bring it all under our control. And what you can do in that instance is you could compensate for that feeling by exerting control around you, by tidying up, by organizing. And many people find that to be a really helpful tool as well. Before I knew about this work, I would reflexively clean and put things away when I experienced chatter, which is interesting for me because I'm not an overly

organized kind of guy. I'm someone whose room was always messy. Same thing is true into my adult life. There's a trail of clothing, usually from the shower to my office downstairs. But when I'm experiencing chatter, everything is always neat and tidy. And so that's another way of tuning your mind from the outside in. That fundamental, like recognizing what we can and can't control. And you sort of pointed to that earlier that things that are out of control, fuel chatter. So if we can find something we can control and put some energy into, I do think it just it's soothing. Totally. And the science bears that out. Ethan, thank you so much for coming on the show. I absolutely love the book. I've loved this

conversation. You and I are going to talk a little bit more in the post show conversation about a couple other tools. Listeners, if you'd like to get access to that and other great benefits of being a member, go to oneufeed.net slash join. Thanks again, Ethan. Really, really been fun. Thanks so much for having me, Eric. It was a truly fun and stimulating conversation. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a monthly donation to support the One You Feed podcast. When you join our membership community with this monthly pledge, you get lots of exclusive members-only benefits. It's our way of saying thank you for your support. Now, we are so grateful for the members of our community. We wouldn't be able to do what we do

without their support, and we don't take a single dollar for granted. To learn more, make a donation at any level, and become a member of the One You Feed community, go to oneyoufeed.net slash join. The One You Feed podcast would like to sincerely thank our sponsors for supporting the show. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor what's in the museum of failure and does your dog truly love you we have the answer go to really know really.com and register to win 500 a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition sign jason bobblehead the really know really podcast follow us on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts