The One You Feed - How to Overcome Parental and Workplace Burnout with Dr. Jacqueline Kerr

Episode Date: February 15, 2023

In this episode, you'll learn: How to defining burnout and learning how to identify symptoms of burnout Why the stereotypes of men and women in their family roles can be damaging The importance of mothers giving themself permission to take breaks from their children What leaders and organizations can do to avoid burnout in their workplaces How change needs to happen on the individual, organization, and society levels to combat burnout To learn more about Jacqueline Kerr, click here. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

It's the stories of people's struggles or people overcoming struggles that we really need to be able to share because I think those stories are what motivates us to then have compassion and then want to make changes. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like, garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that

hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to reallyknowreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead.

The Really Know Really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Dr. Jacqueline Kerr, a behavior scientist and burnout survivor. She is in the top 1% of most cited scientists worldwide. Jacqueline left her position as a public health professor in 2018 and now hosts the podcast Overcoming Working Mom Burnout, where she interviews researchers, diversity experts, and leadership coaches. On this episode, Jacqueline and Eric discuss all types of burnout.

Hi, Jacqueline. Welcome to the show. Thanks so much for having me. Yeah, I'm excited to talk with you. We're going to talk a lot about burnout, the different types of burnout, focusing maybe a little bit extra on mothers and burnout. But before we get to that, let's start like we always do with the parable. In the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops, thinks about it for a second and looks up at their grandparents

and says, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you, what does that parable mean to you in your life and in the work that you do? Thanks so much for that. Well, interestingly, some of my first thoughts come around this whole good, bad, positive, negative, and something that I've really tried to develop is less of a fixed mindset. And it's a label that I gave myself. I was a bad mom, bad wife, bad colleague. And it's one, unfortunately, that I do also see my teenage son giving himself. So I'm really trying to work with him to say labels don't help us.

It's the behaviors we do and the choices we make. But I certainly also really relate to the one you feed. The stories we tell ourselves are so important. And I absolutely see those self-fulfilling prophecies of when I'm lacking in self-belief and self-esteem and believing those old stories. I feed them and then I don't show up in the same way. And again, I'm also seeing it with my son when he believes he's bad in certain ways and then he acts in accordance with that. And then, yeah, bad stuff happens. So I totally think it's so important about these stories we tell ourselves. of perfectionism, right? Of thinking that we have to really do it right. And so if we're really

attached to being good all the time, then that can be a thing that leads us into burnout. And I think a lot of it is beginning to rethink what does good mean and what is good enough mean. Right. And I think that was really an important part of my journey when I had the privilege to actually, and the opportunity to go to therapy, and the therapist said to me, what is good enough? Like, when will you know you are good enough? And of course, it's almost an impossible question to answer. So it's not a helpful criteria for us to work towards. And I totally agree that we bring our personalities, perfectionism, ambition, people pleasing to the workplace. But then there are also other situations in the

workplace where our personalities don't fit with that environment. Or if we're from a marginalized group who is always having to prove themselves, not because of any personality type of theirs, but simply because they belong to a group that has been stereotyped and that really on paper and from the research we see, they're constantly not promoted and they're constantly assumed to be less competent. So again, that's really the first stage of burnout is this need to prove yourself. Now that can come from personal motivations, the family context you grew up in, or because you belong to a group who does have to work twice as hard to get the same distance, and then the environment in the workplace. So it's a big

mix of all those. And so it's really important to understand that person-environment fit because there are things we can do as individuals to mitigate those tendencies. That's why I think it's so important to think of them as tendencies, not traits that are immovable, but things that we can really work towards and adjust. At the same time, realizing we do have power over work environments too. It's challenging. But again, I really feel like we have to really be comfortable saying, I understand these barriers I'm facing and I can overcome them. Yeah. And I think we'll get into that more about how, you know, really burnout as a phenomenon,

particularly in the workplace, needs to be tackled on multiple different levels. And it's not just what the individual can do, although that is part of the story. But before we go there, let's back up a little bit and talk about when we use the word burnout, what does that mean to you? Well, I'll maybe start with the World Health Organization definition, and that's around workplace burnout in particular, and it's related to experiences of exhaustion, cynicism, and loss of productivity. There is also the parental burnout. It's a newer area of research. And that has similar experiences in terms of shame in the role that you're playing, that experience of, I used to be better at it, and now I'm not as good at it as I felt at one

time or other. And then just that negative experience of being a parent. But I think some of these definitions, well, one, I think lots of people have experienced burnout and not necessarily realized it. I experienced it myself, but it wasn't until a couple of years later that I got into the burnout research and went, oh, that was what I was experiencing at the time. I assumed I was having a mental breakdown or a midlife crisis. And then when I actually started to understand this specific experience of both parental and workplace burnout that I was experiencing. And so for me, that kind of came out in tears on the way to work and tears on the way home because I just was so overwhelmed by both domains. I think a really good symptom people can look for is resentment and rumination.

When you get into those stages, those are early symptoms. Because as I say, most people, they ignore the mental signals and suddenly their body breaks down. mental signals and suddenly their body breaks down. So some people can break down and not be able to get out of bed or their hair is falling out or they start to experience adrenal fatigue. There can be very, very physical symptoms and can be dangerous symptoms. Or on the other side, in the mental side, it can be experiences of suicide ideation. So it's really serious. It's more than just feeling tired and fed up. Some people experience brain fog and they really just struggle to achieve anything. I was more on the tired but wired. Like I was so passionate about my work and really motivated to do it. So I was engaged and energized by it, but I could not switch it off. And so

that's a totally different feeling than I think when people try to understand like the difference between burnout and depression. One, people say, well, depression is in multiple domains, but so is burnout once you realize there's both workplace and parental burnout, but it is that lack of motivation. Whereas actually, burnout, you can have a lot of motivation, a lot of engagement, but you're just going round in circles and really exhausting yourself and not able to stop in some ways. Yeah, I think when we get into these things like being really tired and really worn out, it's so difficult to tweeze apart what's actually happening here, right? Is it burnout?

Is it depression? Is it a thyroid condition? That symptom of exhaustion can come from so many different places that I know it's a hard one to figure out. Specifically talking about workplace burnout, you mentioned, and I don't remember the researcher's name, who talks about four workplace conditions, or maybe it's five workplace conditions. And then you can kind of pick one or two that you'd like to share. But there's overwork, there's lack of autonomy,

there's lack of reward, there's injustice, and then there's value conflicts. Right. And that is, yeah, Dr. Christine Maslach's research. And she's been doing this since the 70s. So it's not a new phenomenon from that perspective. And I think that's what's so important is for people to realize the World Health Organization definition is that it's an occupational hazard caused by the workplace, right? So it's really thinking about that. Because I think the other side of it that people often talk about is burnout is chronic stress, unmanaged chronic stress.

And when you say that, it starts to make people think I have to manage my stress better. And lots of people are really doing a lot of great stress management and still burning out because of these conditions in the workplace. So I think that's so important. Again, so much of the advice is about taking a vacation or taking a sabbatical. And the problem is you can and you may be able to, for example, that I did that and it definitely reset my flight fight response, because that's where I was at. But then when you go back into the workplace, the stress then hits you like a truck. So that's when you really do start to recognize, oh, I've done everything I can to manage my own stress. But actually, when I go back into this situation, here's the stressor that is causing my stress.

So yeah, lack of autonomy is so important because it's really about all the things that we've been trying to do, particularly during COVID, where we you know, we now do have remote and hybrid workplaces. And so flexibility is really key. But I think to how we've gone about that has not been as intentional as it could be. And there's this fantastic new book, How the Future Works. And it really is about how do you set up a remote workplace so that your digital office is as exciting and engaging as your Goldman Sachs Fifth Avenue head office that you just spent millions of dollars on. You know, it's really intentionally setting it up to be flexible for everyone so that everyone can turn up to a remote location, that you haven't got meeting overload, that you have defined collaborative hours. And it's really, to be

honest, more flexibility in the timing of the workplace, even which actually apparently has more importance than the location. But there's this real disconnect at the moment between the people that want to go back into the office, which may be primarily your sort of white male CEOs, because they have had that lifetime of being in the office, and that's the place where they function best. But that doesn't work for employees. So that flexibility is really key. doesn't work for employees. So that flexibility is really key. And with that too, it is focus. And that's one of the things I really talk about in my burnout work is if you don't give time for people to actually do focused work, if you don't have real purpose in your meetings, if you don't have real clear connection between somebody's job and their role and the company's mission, their

purpose, it is very hard to do impactful work. So that's a really important part of it, you know, having that autonomy to actually do the work and be productive. And then the other part that really also relates very much to mothers in the workplace is the lack of reward. So as I moved out from my academic job and started to read more about being a better manager, because that was what I was trying to do. How could I be a better manager? And then I started to read about all these barriers that mothers face in the workplace as managers and as leaders. And so then I came across both the maternal wall and the motherhood penalty. And the maternal wall is the point where mothers are not promoted as often, particularly as dads, then mothers are not paid as much as dads. So basically,

you go through this process where mums and dads become a parent, and the dad is seen as more committed to his family. He's now got a family. Therefore, that commitment to his family means he needs to have a better pay as a provider. He's going to be more committed to his job because he's got a family to provide for. So then there's this like fatherhood bonus that happens. And at the same time, the mothers are considered committed to their families, so less committed to their jobs. So they won't want promotion opportunities, they won't want to travel anymore. There's these stereotypes and assumptions are made, which then results in

mothers facing a maternal war for promotion and the penalty of less pay. And then if we think about equity and pay across racial groups as well, and lack of promotion across racial groups, the statistics tell it all because we have so few women of color of CEOs, and it's not for lack of wanting or opportunity or skills, but really these barriers that are in the way across your whole career. Yeah. And I think the motherhood penalties, that idea of women not being promoted as often because they're seen as being committed to something else, I think that also reaches its tentacles into the home life, right? Because if there's not a good equity there, then indeed mothers pick up more of the

slack for their home life. So it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because they kind of have to be more committed there, which means they can't put in maybe as much in the office. And so we've got to adjust the way workplaces view these things. But there's also the matter of, you know, are there ways to shift the home-based equity where women aren't the only ones who are always seen as they pick up what falls through the cracks, which is what I think often happens. is supposed to do A, B, and C, but then there is LMNOP that no one really says I'm going to do, which is all the stuff that keeps arising, that the mother then naturally picks up. Right. And we call that that mental load of all the things that keep coming up and that have to be managed on a daily basis. And I think one of the statistics that really highlighted this to me is as you look along the leadership sort of growth progress, by the time women are senior leaders, 52% of them also have the majority of the household caregiving role, where it's only 13% of senior men. So exactly right. If you don't have this other major role in the home, then you can focus more on work. So yeah, there's definitely a lot of work being done now about

trying to create more equity in the home. And that has its challenges, one, in all the relationship issues that you have to be able to go through to create that equity. But also one of the big things is paternity leave, because in many of our European countries, there's the potential for paternity leave in like the first year of life. So often what happens in some European countries is, you know, the mom plays her role when she needs to play it during those, you know, sort of fundamental breastfeeding months and things. But then towards the end of that, that's when maybe in months 12 to 18 or something, the father can come in and really play such an important role in terms of connecting with the child at that age, learning what this mental load is so

that they can appreciate it and value it, and also come up with different rules for it if necessary too, like they can really have input from an informed place. But I think that's what we see is when fathers are able to take maternity leave, it changes the women's career trajectory because they can go back at a different time, more refreshed, and also changes their burnout trajectory as well. So having dads involved earlier, and I interviewed you for my podcast this season, is all about having dads becoming more active participants in the home. And sometimes as moms, we put barriers in the way of that. This is our domain and we're trying to control it and we're not open to receiving support necessarily.

And dads aren't the one that are given the opportunity to have some of the education that comes to moms through their moms or through, you know, female friends. But dads don't necessarily have that opportunity to have those conversations at work or with their friends or haven't had a role model in that way. So it can be really challenging. And then I also heard the stories of dads who were stepping up, who were showing up, who were being the volunteer at the swim meet or the school, and then being treated really badly by the other mums there. And so, there's a lot on both sides that can be done to

reverse these stereotypes, because unfortunately, we do have this stereotype as the man, as the incompetent carer, caregiver, you know? Right, right. Somewhere in your work, you write, you know, one thing we could do in the media is stop that portrayal of men as essentially glorified babysitters. Or bumbling idiots, you know? Or bumbling idiots. Yes, yes. That's another one. That mental load that you talk about is an interesting one, because in a previous marriage of mine, and by previous, we know that it didn't end well. So actually, it ended very well for a relationship ending. We ended on very good terms, but it obviously didn't work out.

This mental load thing was really interesting because that's what she would often say. She would say, yeah, you do all those things, but I'm the one that has to worry about all of them. And that became interesting because I think, yes, there was absolutely some truth in that for sure. And I had a role in that. And she had a tendency to worry in ways that I simply didn't and that I saw as kind of unnecessary, right? And again, in any discussion, I'm saying we both have our piece in that, but that was always difficult for me because I wanted to be like, well, yes, I don't want you worrying that much. And honestly, I think here, look, A, B, C, and D, here's what we're doing.

Here's what the plans are like. It's okay. But there was a worry level. And I heard something the other day, and I don't know if this is true at all. And maybe in your research and reading, you can verify this. I heard that mother's amygdalas change in a very dramatic way when they have children compared to father's. I could totally believe that. Yeah. So their worry system is elevated. And it was interesting because the only thing

that got a father's amygdala to do that to some sort of similar degree was when he became the primary caregiver. This idea is very interesting because it's the question of what degree of worry is helpful and useful. And to the extent that it is, where can the man step up and say, you know what, I'll just totally take X, Y, and Z off your plate. It's mine to think about. And where is a mother's worry, perhaps not productive and constructive. I'm trying to stay out of trouble here with this discussion, but I want to be honest about like my experience with it. Yeah. And that's so interesting to think of that amygdala because that's why it's so important to

have interventions like mindfulness to calm that amygdala, because it is. We go into this flight or fight response, and I totally experience that. And it is, it's like parenting from a state of fear, which is just so unhealthy. I think the piece of it is the expectations on mothers that society puts on us to be the superman, to be available 24-7. And that's when you have that pressure of the ideal mother available 24-7, and then the ideal worker available 24-7. So when they connect, that's just such an impossible scenario.

But I think, yeah, these expectations of motherhood from society have changed. And there's a great book around why women can't sleep anymore. And it was kind of explaining those things that, you know, if you're in that sandwich generation, too, where you're caring for a parent and caring for a child, and then, you know, expected to make all the right environmental choices in your products and expected to volunteer. I then, you know, expected to make all the right environmental choices in your products and expected to volunteer. I mean, this is not parenting of the 70s, come home when the street light comes on, right? This is, you know, and I'm not saying this is necessarily a better style of parenting now, because it's between neglect and then helicopter parenting. But I think there are also so many added complications

for children these days. So as a parent, for example, I have a son and daughter, my daughter's nine and my son's 14, and he's on the autism spectrum and has Asperger's, and him trying to understand how to use a cell phone safely. I mean, we didn't have those challenges as children. Issues with transgender relationships, we didn't have those challenges. And so that's what I feel in some ways is we're not that well prepared to support our kids in the world they're growing up in with COVID and the mental health challenges that have come from that. So I'd say that's one thing is we're under a whole different load of pressures. But I totally agree

that, you know, taking our responsibilities too seriously to a point that it's not healthy, because we are in a state of fight or flight. And we're over worrying, and that doesn't help anyone. So one of my tips for that is very much that moms can have permission to have total breaks from their children. And that's what worked best for my husband and I. We tried the sort of balancing the mental load. And like you described him taking responsibility, full responsibility from start to finish of a particular task. But that wasn't kind of how he wanted to operate. He wanted to do more shared tasks. And I still ended up having to remind him of things. So it

didn't come off my plate. So that just didn't work for us with his style and his brain. But what I could do is leave for a long weekend or do a week at a co-working space where I really just said, this week's my work week. I'm not going to think about kids at all. And then he got to parent in the way he wanted to do. And I literally said, I'm not thinking about any of those things. And the impact that had on me in terms of reducing my stress, but also clearing my brain, I could think again, I could write again. I felt confident. So I do think it's so important that we do have these periods to give that flight-fight response system a total break from thinking about being a mother. Yeah, I think that's a great practice and idea, which is like, I'm gone, not reachable,

you figure it out. Because the thing that my ex would say to me, and it was a fair criticism was, yes, you say you're taking that, but what if you don't? What if you forget? And so she couldn't quite let it go because it was back to sort of what we said earlier that, you know, we could define roles and make them more equal, but there's still that whole messy middle of things that pop up that are unexpected. And so I think that's the mental load on mothers that we're talking about here. And that can be reinforced too, for example, in the school system, where even if you do provide both parents telephone numbers, the mother is always the one that's called. So I definitely know of lots of dads that are frustrated by that. It's

like, I'm the contact. Why do you, she's the second contact. Why do you keep calling her? She's not available. I am. So again, it's really challenging in all directions. Being consistent with your habits is the engine that drives your transformation and growth. Think about it. You can't feed your good wolf one big meal a year and expect it to thrive. Consistent, steady bits of food fuel a good, healthy wolf. But it's hard to create consistency. You might listen to this podcast on a Thursday, feel really inspired, but then life takes over and by Saturday night you've forgotten all about it. That's why I'm hosting a free live Q&A town hall Zoom meeting on Thursday, February 23rd,

where I'll be answering your questions about how to take what you know and turn it into what you consistently do. Head to one you feed.net slash town hall to register for this free live session with me during this town hall. You'll ask me your specific question and I'll answer it. It's that simple. So if you would like my help creating some tools to deal with real life, when it gets in the way of your best intentions, let me help you. If changing habits feels overwhelming, if you struggle to make time for things because life is so busy, if it's easy to get caught up with your to-do list, you feel consistently behind and taking time for yourself feels selfish, then let's talk. The things we do consistently are more important than the things we do once in a while.

In this free town hall session, you'll ask me your questions and I'll help you find what works for you. How you might look at things differently and create the structure to help you do the thing you really want to do. And if you don't have a specific question, just come listen to the conversation. A little bit of something is better than a lot of nothing. Truth is, you can make a lot of progress by doing just a little bit. To register for this free Zoom session on February 23rd, go to oneufeed.net slash townhall. That's oneufeed.net slash townhall. I hope I get the chance to meet you there. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden.

And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth.

Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Bryan Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really, No Really, sir. Bless you all.

Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really? No, really. No, really. Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called really no really. And you can find it on the I heart radio app on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I want to back us up for a second and then jump back in where we are. And what I want to back us up for for a second is to describe some different types of burnout. We've talked about two of them, workplace burnout and parental burnout, but there's also caregiver burnout. And as you mentioned, there's a sandwich generation, right? I am enormously grateful that my partner Jenny's mom passed of Alzheimer's this early winter after about a six year journey with that. And, you know, my mom has not been well, my dad has Alzheimer's. And that's been really challenging. And it all really started after my son graduated high school. And for that reason, I'm kind of grateful because I didn't have to do both.

You know, I can only imagine, you know, when I think about having another child today and I think about it and it just feels like, whoa, are you kidding me? You know, parenting seemed difficult when I was doing it with a son who was born in 1998. But now, as you mentioned, the pace of change is so fast in our world. No, as you mentioned, the pace of change is so fast in our world. You know, like you said, there's all these new scenarios that we're constantly presented with more and more and more that we have to figure out how to respond to as parents. And so, you know, there's that caregiver burnout that we get. You mentioned another type and it's called emotional burnout. What does that mean? that mean? Yeah, so and really to potentially intersect that with that caregiver burnout,

in terms of if we think about the statistics to have the percentage of women of color who are also playing a caregiving role for an elderly relative, and not necessarily just a parent, but it could be an aunt or, or even an additional sort of parenting role to another member of their family. That's so much higher in certain groups. So to me, emotional burnout really is coming from ongoing trauma. So trauma that people can have experienced because of their racial group or ethnic group, then that ongoing trauma. So whether that's trauma because of a shooting in their neighborhood, whether that's trauma through highly covered in the media events, George Floyd's death, whether that's trauma because at work they're repeatedly being asked about their hair, their clothes, their accent, their intelligence, their competence. So to me, that's constant questioning and constant

experience of racism, to me, leads to this emotional burnout where you're just exhausted of feeling upset at how you're treated, upset about how your community's treated. And again, if we think about COVID and the higher death rates in certain communities, this is just a lot of tragedy that certain groups, it's really faced all the time. And there was this fantastic book by a journalist, Danny McLean called We Live for the We. And she started that book because of the high maternal mortality rates in black women. And she was a journalist looking at that. But then she really delved into motherhood as a black woman. And she essentially was saying is, we are advocates in our communities,

because we can't afford not to be. Someone like me, a white woman, you know, I do a lot of advocacy, and I have a privilege to do that. But it's not because, you know, my children are at risk every day. And I think that's such an important difference to consider. You know, when we have a school shooting, for example, we can feel really fearful for our children. And we talked about this fear that mothers have. But the statistics show that it's really not likely to occur. But the statistics show that it is six times more likely to occur that a black child is part of a violent community experience. So there's a real risk there that women of color are afraid of and then have to advocate to try and work around because it affects their lives and their children's lives constantly.

So I think that's so important too, as we think back to workplace burnout is when somebody experiences a microaggression at work, this was the thousandth time that they've experienced this. They don't need to be told that the person didn't intend to do it, or they're taking it the wrong way. This has been on top of all these other experiences. So I think that's just exhausting. And that definitely can lead to that burnout of just being in that state. I mean, like we talked about, it is being in that state of fight or flight, but to a certain extent with good reason. Yeah.

Yep. So let's go back to workplace burnout for a second and talk about why is it so hard for the leaders of workplaces to see what is causing burnout and even see burnout? That's such a good question. Unfortunately, like I mentioned, the statistics are that the majority of senior leaders, C-suites, CEOs are male white men. So I have these six different profiles of burnout. And one of them is overwork and people that are feeling the pressure to perform, to be the provider and very ambitious driven. And so that is the type of burnout that a typical male white leader will have experience.

And so then when they look at burnout in their employees, they're seeing it through that lens. And again, a solution for that type of burnout can be things like a vacation or could be better time management or better delegation. But it's not the same as an employee who is, for example, overworking and not being rewarded or being marginalized and not being rewarded or has no purpose because their job has not been related to the company. So these other experiences of burnout are not the experience that the majority of leaders have

been through. So I think that's one thing is they're just seeing it through a different lens. And then I think also there's experience too. I like this one. This came from Megan Reitz, who did a podcast on this. And she also has leadership mindfulness exercises within the Calm app. And basically, she says that leaders are in this optimism bubble. And they really think that part of their role is to be optimistic, right, for everyone else. But when you're in that optimism bubble, it's really hard to see that the experiences that other people are going through. I was reading recently in this book, Inclusion Revolution by

Daisy Alga Dominguez, about the fear that women of color have about speaking up about the problems they're facing. And so when we have these fears, of course, one, it's not safe to necessarily speak up about them, but two, it's very difficult. So we're not communicating our experience as well. And then it all comes back to that framework of this is your individual problem. You're not coping with this stress well, so you have to do something about it. And so the shame and blame of that also makes it very hard to speak up. And again, in some communities, there's a stigma for reaching out and using mental health services, or there's not culturally appropriate mental health providers available. So there's so many barriers to us actually having conversations in the workplace for us to share the experiences we're having.

And that's what I think is actually really an important part of behavior change is, you know, I'm the scientist, I've done all the data, and I can present research data through the roof. But actually, our experience of trying to change legislators and politicians was they needed to know it was based in fact, but it was the stories of their constituents that made a difference. And I think it's the same in the workplace. It's the stories of people's struggles or people overcoming struggles that we really need to be able to share because I think those stories are what motivates us to then have compassion and then want to make changes. The data doesn't motivate us enough, unfortunately, if it's even available broken down, say, by race or ethnicity or caregiving status. So there's just this really big disconnect.

these reports is that the well-being solutions that have been offered in the workplace and the caring that leaders are giving is not being seen as caring. They're being seen as not caring, even though they believe they're caring. And I believe they're caring too. They're trying their best, but the solutions and the attitudes are not matching what employees are expecting. Employees are expecting the organization to change. And when you're then pointing your finger and saying, no, you go take this mental health service, or you take a vacation, or you do more self-care in the home after work, outside of work hours, this is not resonating with what people now realize the workplace is causing the stress and they want that to change.

And so that's really been the struggle that, you know, leaders are going to have to admit that they're part of the problem. Yeah. I mean, there's a very difficult challenge here, which is that if you as a leader admit that, that the culture is problematic and you want to be compassionate, you need to change that. At the same time, you know, I always think it's helpful to look at anybody and look at what are the pressures on them, right? And you talk about this to some degree that until we make well-being a metric that leaders are measured on, things

won't really change because Because even a progressive enlightened CEO is going to have a board of directors and shareholders who are going to have a perspective and they've got competitors and the competitors might be going, screw workplace well-being, like I don't care. And in the long run, a workplace that has well-being probably might win out. In the short term, it might not. And that's what everything is measured on. So I think it's this really difficult thing where even if you're a leader and want to make some changes, it can be difficult because, as I just mentioned, the challenges that are coming from all different kinds of places.

Yeah, exactly. And again, there's data showing that, you know, we're evaluated, most people in their promotional process evaluated on impact on corporate goals. And so even their ability to help others with their professional growth, their contribution to the DEI mission, their contribution to retention, and their contribution to well-being are measured, you know, less than 50% of the time, and it's more in the low 20s. So there is no reward system. And as you and I know, rewards are so important. Ultimately, we do end up becoming intrinsically rewarded, but external rewards are a major part of especially the promotional process. So there's no built-in reward. So that's definitely a big part of especially the promotional process. So there's no built-in

reward. So that's definitely a big part of the problem. And I agree at that board level. But essentially the business case is there that companies that are more diverse and companies that can keep their employees, whether they leave because they're fed up of the diversity or fed up of burnout, companies that can have less turnover are more profitable. So the business case is there. But I agree, it could be seen as more a long term case. And that can be problematic. But I also think there can be this shift with the ESG. So with these new expectations for companies that they have to have a social license as well as a business license. And so it's not just that they're doing right by their employees, it's they're doing right by their customers. And if their customers are women of

color, you know, they need to be able to have those people in leadership positions to best serve their customers. So, you know, as we go forward, there is this shift to saying that our social responsibility and the way our governance and our reward systems, right? Because these are, you know, if you can create key performance indicators around these things, then yes, can create key performance indicators around these things, then yes, that's how change happens. But unfortunately, I still see so much of it being these branding exercises where people say, I'm going to commit to the Thrive Pledge to support mental health at work, or we're doing this for diversity, equity, and inclusion know, our ESG has these plans, but then it feels like a branding exercise. And that's where cynicism comes in amongst employees

too, because if the investment isn't there, and if the commitment isn't there with those reward systems, right, then change isn't going to happen. And it then becomes very frustrating for individuals within those organizations. So the investment is there because that's the problem. Again, we have diversity inclusion officers now, but they are not being given a team. It's not throughout the whole organization. And they're not being given the funds to actually make the cultural change that the organization requires and you know that takes a lot of investment I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden.

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And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Corporate change is difficult. Even when everybody in leadership is really bought in, it's still difficult, let alone if it's just sort of marginally bought into. These big organizations are really challenging to move them in significant ways. Right, right. That's true. But I think too, we talk about this in terms of how that can happen. And there's these different models where it starts in individuals, and then it starts in peripheral units, and then it actually becomes central to the organization, then core to the organization. And one of the processes that we talk about doing that, and it comes from many different

areas. So from the business side, there is definitely cases for breakthrough innovation because of shared decision making. In global development, there is where we have these changes because of learning collaboratives. And in healthcare, we have it where we are implementing changes. So for example, in the medical system, there can be a lot of cynicism about new recommendations and not good buy-in for making all these changes. So again, that's when we use peer learning collaboratives. So it's this whole process where small groups start to actually experiment and work out what is the change process? What do we need to do? And then there's

learning cycles from that where you learn from that cycle and then move it to another unit and test it in another unit. And you keep building it out by expanding it to these other units. But because of the experimental and learning process, one, you learn what works, one, you learn what needs to be adapted. But there's also this resilience that comes in, not just because the end user has been involved in the process. That's where the shared decision-making stories in business or cases in business are examples of that. But it's also then that you have gone through these iterations, so you know how to adapt. So when new things like COVID hit us,

if you have these processes in place, you already have the system to adapt to new challenges and that will make an organization more resilient. So that's definitely a tool and a process that I say comes from so many different fields of organizational development from different healthcare, global development businesses that I think is really important because it comes back to also understanding the process of change. So, so often as individuals, we try to make change on our own. We get a bit stuck in that process in terms of not wanting to share that we've set a goal. We're afraid of failing, afraid of making mistakes. And actually, the group process and social learning is the strongest form of learning we can have through imitation, through, you know, the process of receiving

feedback and positive reinforcement. That is the best way for us to learn and change. But unfortunately, we're so stuck in this, like, isolated individual mindset that we don't even give ourselves the opportunity to have these dynamic group processes. So that's really where I'm coming from, trying to help individuals see how they can step out of that mindset and then see how organizations can use these processes to actually make the change contagious. Yeah. Well, if I need to change a big organization, I'm going to be calling you. Thank you. But to take this to the individual level for a second, you say that, you know, whatever we're going to do in our own lives to deal with burnout,

and we could talk about what some of those things are. We know that organizationally, we need change. We know that societally we need change. And we know that as individuals, our choices matter. They may not be enough to fully overcome it, but there's a role there for individual choice. And you say, whatever you choose, remember that half-baked good intentions don't lead to action. You also need the recipe, a behavior change guide. What will you change? When, where, How will you practice? Who will be your role model, your accountability partner? How will you cue your new behavior? And how will you measure and celebrate your success? And that is a pretty good summary

and a paragraph of what we know about how people change behaviors is you need some version of all those things that you just listed. Yes. Yeah. And that's where I've tried to put it into a stepped process and to create a plan all comes from behavior change science. And, you know, over 20 years of us now actually discovering what are the key ingredients to that. Because when we started our behavior change models back in the day, really we were studying the people who had changed successfully and said what led to their successful change. We weren't actually then studying what strategies do

people need to have to change when they're not the person that just is already on this natural change trajectory. So yeah, that definitely comes from the science. And I agree, there is things in our own lives we need to do. So in particular, when somebody is in a state of burnout, it's really looking at everything that is on that to-do list you have, and then really, really looking and saying, what are the major priorities? What are fundamental? And particularly what we see, and this came out too recently with a report that was called the great breakup. And this was that senior women leaders are leaving organizations because they have spent so much time unpaid helping with DEI efforts and helping with wellbeing efforts and the mental

health of their colleagues without any recognition or reward for that. And those things can actually interfere with their ability to meet other performance criteria. You know, they're realizing I can't do these things anymore, but they were deciding to leave the organizations because they realized if they didn't do them, nobody else was going to do them either. And those organizations were just going to be worse for it. I do understand the difficulty of making those decisions of giving up those tasks that are unpaid and to be honest, undervalued because if they're not being rewarded, the organization is not valuing them. And I've helped a number of women in different organizations and in academia where they are, they're on many, many of these committees.

And I ask, okay, are they being paid? Are they being valued? Are they part of their reward system? And they say no. And they're terrified to give them up because what that will say about them, again, feeding into those stereotypes of women as being the volunteers and the nurturers and the caregivers, and they think they're going to be penalized. And in some cases, we can be penalized when we're not the one that steps up. But actually, what they often found is when they stepped away, nobody noticed because they weren't valuing what they were doing in those committees anyway. That wasn't part of the promotional process. And this is kind of what we talk about as quiet quitting, which is that people basically are stepping away from all the tasks that they're not being compensated for or rewarded for

and just focusing on the basics of their work and trying to do the minimal so that they can reset and gain control of their lives and work experiences again. And that's the same as a parent, you know, over volunteering at school. Now, again, if those things light you up and bring you joy, of course, you can keep doing them. But it's that process of going through everything you're doing and saying, what is this that is out of obligation? What is this that is actually contributing to an impactful goal that I know I'm trying to achieve. And I think we had an opportunity to do that as parents as well during COVID, where all the extra activities that we'd

been driving kids around to, they were stopped. And actually, we had quality family time for a while together. And I think that hopefully reset some families to go, actually, what does it mean to be a family and to spend time together? You know, is us driving our kids or kids being involved in all these activities? Is that actually the family life and the goals we want for them and ourselves? So I don't know if we've all just gone back into those previous behaviors, probably have to a certain extent. But I think that's really what we have to do. And even the surgeon general, he has been making a lot of statements. There are calls to action on burnout. And he talked about

one organization, which was basically saying, let's get literally their initiative was called, let's get rid of the stupid stuff. So it is going through an organization too and saying, stuff. So it is going through an organization too and saying, what is the stuff that we do as an organization administratively or in our work practices that is just stupid? Like what meetings do we all attend that are stupid, that are a waste of time? So it is, it's that really, really focusing down on those core behaviors. And sort of one way to do that is looking at the obligation list, looking if you can rate things out of 10. And Greg McKeown's Essentialism book really talks to us about why would we be doing anything that isn't a seven out of 10? You know, when we were a kid and we were getting a grade, if it wasn't seven out of 10, we weren't happy with it. So why do we accept

work that is less than seven out of 10 as an adult? And again, we don't all have those choices. So I think that's a big part of this is where are some people having very constrained choices? So we have to recognize that too. But often we can delegate something that isn't our superpower and it is somebody else's. So again, really understanding that process and then really getting this handle of the yeses and nos. And that was an exercise I had to do with an Excel spreadsheet where I just started writing down each day, everything I've been asked to do.

And did I say yes or no? And one, it really helped me realize how many new things each week I was being asked to do. And I was like, no wonder I'm overwhelmed. Two, you know, oh my goodness, all these times I've said yes, said yes, didn't realize I said yes, said yes when I wasn't asked to lead something, but did it anyway. And then all the no's, the guilt that I felt about those no's, but really committing to say, okay, I'm not saying yes anymore. And I know when we're in a period of growth or building a business or having personal growth, you know, there is definitely a mentality to saying yes to opportunities. That is great. But if you're in a state of burnout, you have to recognize the opportunity costs of every yes, and actually have a year of no's. And it will take

you some time to practice those no's. And will you as a member of a certain group be penalized for saying no, potentially, but you're being penalized anyway. So it's like you have to gain back control of your time and your choices. And that's so important because I know like I felt like a victim of my choices. And that was so hard for me to like get my head around. I believed I was such a strong, independent person. And to feel like a victim of my choices just didn't match with who I thought I was. But I really had become a victim to my choices and felt I didn't have choices. So really gaining back control of my time and my choices. Yeah. When you're in burnout,

that is definitely step number one. Yeah. There's so much in what you just said there. I mean, one is that I think for any kind of change, let's just keep it on the personal level for now. You know, when I work with coaching clients, they'll be like, I want to do X, I want to do Y, I want to do Z, I want to do B. And I'll be like, okay, all right, those are all good things. What are we getting rid of? Because I'm assuming for most people, I mean, for all of us, our time is filled with something. You know, everybody has 24 hours a day and they fill it with something. And so really thinking about, okay, well, what am I going to do less of in order to enable me to do this thing is really critical. And you talk about this a little bit in that, you know, one of the roles that coaches can play for people is helping people reset their expectations.

So I often say, we may find out as part of this experiment that a b and c that you say are important to you we're just going to have to jettison them and that's going to feel difficult but it's better than dragging the expectation of it around all the time and feeling consistently bad that you don't do it because really you can't do it unless you make some other really big changes that you might not be willing to or able to make. So I think that's a really important thing. And I think a life well lived for any of us is a life in which we think very regularly about what is important. Very regularly, we're asking ourselves, what is important? What matters to me? Am I living that way? Because we can do that kind of deep work. And that's really great to do. And we have to do it. And then life changes. So this is sort of an

iterative process. You know, the other thing you mentioned there is that saying yes. And I remember, you know, I worked with some coaching clients on this and a policy that we ended up with several of them was anytime anybody asks you to do anything that's extra, your answer is that's a really exciting opportunity. Let me think about it. You cannot answer yes. You don't have to answer no, but what we need is time to think because I think part of what makes it so hard, and this is for me, is when somebody asks me to do something, I'm looking at it in isolation. And I'm like, oh, that sounds really awesome. That sounds really cool. Yes, I would want to do that. But I have to plug it into the rest of my life. And that's what we don't do in the moment, I think, at least I don't, is I'm not

seeing it in context of everything else. I'm seeing it isolated. But that's not the way things are. And so that ability to say, well, let me think about it, gives us the chance to go off, look at the context in our lives, our whole lives. Does it fit? If it does, what's going away? And also gives us the ability to go back and say no from a place of strength and be able to really think about how we want to say no instead of just no. So that's something that I found really helpful with some clients of mine is just no matter what it is you say, that's really interesting.

I'd like to think about that. Right. especially as like junior employees in an organization, being able to come back and say, I've done a time analysis, or I've done an impact analysis. I love that word. I've done an impact analysis. And I don't believe this is going to be impacting the goals that you've set for me. Am I correct? And so then it is, it's that intentionality that's so important that I agree we often lack. And that's the same for how organizations are set up. And like I mentioned at the beginning, when we're not intentional about, well, what would this flexible work time look like?

And what are some of the potential negative consequences like proximity bias, right? We have to think through things with more insight and time and detail. And again, really looking at those potential downsides. And I understand I'm also like you, an optimistic person. And again, I think we want optimism in so many places. But when it's like that blind optimism or that optimism bubble of the CEOs, then we really are doing a disservice to the opportunity cost that's there. But I also think the other part of it too, because like you said, things change, but it's being like the frog in boiling water, like the water started out cool and then got hotter and hotter and we didn't notice. So again, how do you, you know, make those times to assess what is important? And, and to be honest, like it's those values re-assessments too. I still find that really hard to do because I find it really hard to balance out some of those values as well and change them. Because especially if they've been around like hard work

is a value of mine. And now I'm trying to have a value of balance. And it's like, okay, how do I even change my behaviors to have that value? And what do I do about that old value of hard work that is so ingrained and also has an upside? There's important parts of that. So I agree. But back to the time being filled too there was recently i was hearing something on the radio and it was about these time use analysis and societal expectations that we always add more so again when covid hit it was like okay what new hobbies are you going to have like what are you going to do with all this time you've got? And of course, people didn't have more time. Work hours went up, you know, online time for work increased. So, suddenly we have this expectation we've got to do something better with our time.

That's just coming as a save from this societal expectation that's really kind of destroying us at the moment. Yeah. And what you say about values work is really important because it is deeply uncomfortable work. I mean, I think it is deeply uncomfortable work because you, A, have to make some very difficult decisions. B, you almost always are brought up face to face with the ways you're falling short of what you say you value. So you're seeing a gap. It's hard work. And so that's why I think a lot of us don't like to do it. And we're overwhelmed, right? Where are you carving out time to do deep thinking? I always think I need to go away to a, you know, a mountaintop and have eight hours to journal. And that can be really helpful time, but also just very quick reflections, you know, like, what am I doing right now? And is it does it feel

important? But again, I think they are difficult. And it also points to, we all have differing degrees of choice. Our choices are constrained in certain cases, or the things we get to choose between or none of them are great options. This talking about, you know, living according to our values is a great idea. And I think it is the heart of a good life, but it is incredibly difficult for so many different reasons. Right, exactly. And I know that another tool a coach gave me was kind of the body scans as you look at your to-do list. And in terms of which one actually makes you feel like this is something you want to do. And so being able to even connect to your body to make those types of decisions, that intuition I felt like I had suppressed

for so much of my life as well. I'm now trying to tap into it differently. Because again, when you're approaching life about who do I need to be for everyone else? And I think that was one of the things when you are a people pleaser and a perfectionist and trying to be the best mother you can be, you're really serving everyone else and your own needs and wants have absolutely gone out the window. And to then turn around and say, what are they? One, it's like the shame of not knowing that and being able to tap into it. But again, that message came to me so clearly from a book about parenting. And it was called The Parenting Book That You Wish Your Parents Had Read. And it was basically saying, allow your children to feel emotions so that they can understand what they need. And from that need, they're then able to express their needs and

communicate those needs. And it made me realize how my upbringing had been very much in suppressing any emotions, a little bit British style anyway. And so it's really helped me see, okay, no, I need to teach my kids to feel and express their emotions so you can understand what you want. So again, kind of that process along with these values, because the values are words that can be really hard to operationalize as daily behaviors as well. One of my values was honesty, but I felt so uncomfortable giving candid feedback to people. So, you know, it's like you're constantly questioning and I had a value of honesty, but yet I would hide how hard I was working from everybody else. I'd do it at home in the middle of the night. I remember even

when a colleague pointed that out to me, that the dissonance and the shame I had that I wasn't being honest, you know, like you said, it's so uncomfortable. It can be really, really devastating. But that's when we start to at least start to see, okay, how can I make progress? Yeah. And I think some of this goes back to something that you said when I read that quote about how we change, you know, one of the questions was, who will be your role model, your accountability partner? I think this values work and the discernment that it needs for it to actually happen really needs to happen in community. Even if by community, that means, you know, you have two or three conversations with people that

are around you. But these things feel very difficult to figure out on our own. It's why a coach can be enormously helpful for people who have that opportunity. But so can talking to a friend. I mean, there are other ways to get this help. But I think having other people involved so that this conversation isn't all in our head is really helpful. Yeah, very much agree. And back to that process that I said, the social learning process is the best way to do it. And particularly for those reasons, we need role models. I mean,

role models are such an important part of behavior change. It's not just that you have somebody that looks like you doing the thing you want to do, but it's actually a really important part of the learning process in terms of developing the skills and having the confidence. And that's, again, the accountability side of this. It's not just you need an accountability partner to keep you on track. You need an accountability partner to tell you that you're doing the right things or to provide the perspective we talked about, which is, you know, are your expectations really unreasonable? So I agree, we need this in community as one-to-one or particularly in groups,

because I mean, I've benefited so much from group coaching where, you know, I see some of the things that other moms worry about. And I think, oh, that's not my worry. That's not on my radar. Or I learned from how another mom, you know, communicated better with her husband. We can learn from each other so much. And I think that realizing we're not alone. I mean, that's part of burnout is you do go into withdrawing and the isolation that comes from that. And it's so important to know you're not alone. And that's, again, why I do my podcast as well, so that other people can see that they're not the only one going through this. You're not flawed. There's not something wrong with you. We're all struggling.

Well, I think that is a beautiful place for us to wrap up on that note of you're not alone. Tell others real quick what your podcast is. Yeah, so my podcast is Overcoming Working Mom Burnout. So really focused on finding the solutions. I have a TEDx talk as well, How to Stop Burnout Before It Starts. So really focused on finding the solutions. I have a TEDx talk as well, how to stop burnout before it starts. And there's lots of resources on my website,

www.drjaclyncurr.com. Like you said, I blog, but I'm also trying to develop a leadership course for women to teach women how to lead change by understanding the change process and by understanding, you know, a lot of these topics we've talked about today in terms of focus, flexibility, fairness, purpose, but also having the right conditions for change, which is psychological safety, growth mindset that

we've talked about and well-being. So taking women leaders through that process of learning how to change and then learning what are the things, what are the behaviors that you can role model? And then what are the behaviors you can support? Because I think that's the biggest thing about behavior change. We don't realize how much support we all need to change. And as a leader, you can provide so much more support that you realize once you kind of realize, oh yeah, that's why I've been struggling myself as a leader. I haven't had that support. And so that course, plus I'm trying to develop small groups, these peer learning collaboratives that women can learn from each other about how to really drive change in their organizations. So those are things that are on my

goals for 2023. Well, we will put links in the show notes to where people can find your podcast and find all your work. And Jacqueline, thank you so much for coming on the show. I've enjoyed this conversation and it's a really important conversation. So thank you. Thank you so much. And thank you so much for the work you do and the time and effort that it goes into supporting this type of work. Thank you. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a monthly donation to support the One You Feed podcast. When you join our membership community with this monthly pledge, you get lots of exclusive members-only benefits. It's our way of saying thank you for your support. Now, we are so grateful for the members of our community. We wouldn't be able to do what we do without their support, and we don't take a single dollar for granted. To learn more, make a donation at any level, and become a member of the One You Feed community, go to oneyoufeed.net slash join. The One You Feed podcast would like to sincerely

thank our sponsors for supporting the show. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really No Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead.

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