The One You Feed - How to Own our Struggles and Find Healing with Minaa B.

Episode Date: July 21, 2023

Join licensed therapist and author Minaa B as she navigates the complexities of owning our struggles to find healing. In this conversation, she explains the power of self-care practices and community support in overcoming trauma and achieving wholeness. In this episode, you’ll be able to: Uncover the vital role emotional maturity plays in personal healing journeys Grasp how building a strong community can fast-track your healing process Dive into the profound impact of racism on personal growth and mental health Acknowledge internalized oppression and the role of self-reflection in dismantling it Recognize the significance of setting boundaries and advocating for yourself in all relationships To learn more, click here!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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go to oneufeed.net slash text and sign up for free. psyche, which I thought was cool. So if you'd like to hear from us a few times a week via text, go to oneufeed.net slash text and sign up for free. I encourage people to be doing the healing work that they need, but don't forget about how that healing work is also a part of a larger system, which is the community that we live in. And even this world that we complain about, this world that's full of so much oppression, this world that's full of so much oppression, this world that's full of so much hate and chaos, well, guess who makes the world function? People. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like, garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true.

And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden.

And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like... Why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor what's in the museum of failure and does your dog truly love you we have the answer go to really know really.com and register to win 500 a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition signed jason bobblehead the really know really podcast follow us on the i heart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Mina B, a former psychotherapist specializing in anxiety, depression, and trauma. Mina has worked in several mental health industries, including early childhood in New York City's early Head

Start programs, private practice, and community mental health. In this episode, Eric, Ginny, and Mina discuss her book, Owning Our Struggles, A Path to Healing and Finding Community in a Broken World. Hi, Mina. Welcome to the show. Hi, Eric and Ginny. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, I'm really excited to talk with you. We're going to be discussing your book, Owning Our Struggles, A Path to Healing and Finding Community in a Broken World. owning our struggles, a path to healing, and finding community in a broken world.

But before we jump into that, we'll start like we always do. And I forgot to welcome Ginny, who's sitting next to me. So welcome, Ginny. Oh, don't worry about me. Welcome, V. I'll let you do the parable. All right. I mean, that goes like this. A grandparent was talking with their grandchild, and they said, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And one is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops and thinks about it for a second, looks up at their grandparent and says, well, which one wins? And the grandparent said, the one you feed. So I'd like to ask you what that parable means to you in your life and

in the work that you do. I think the first thing that comes to mind is this idea that two things can coexist. Two opposing things can coexist. We have the capacity to harness goodness, purity, joy, but I think it's important to remember that we also have the capacity to harm, to hurt, and to cause pain. And it is up to us to hold ourselves accountable by being cognizant of the parts of ourselves that we feed, of the parts of ourselves that we tune into, the parts of ourselves that we heal, because healing is a choice, and the things that you feed yourself is a choice. And so that's what comes to mind when I hear that parable. That's really beautiful. And one of the things I love about your work is you are holding two things in your work a lot at the same time, right? And it is this idea that we are a result of the circumstances that we are grown up in, our

childhoods, the communities that we're in, the privilege we do or don't have, the abuse we do or don't suffer. So you're holding that, but you're holding equally this idea that we are not powerless people, that we have a great deal of our own innate power. And I love that balance because we often see people with one or the other of those, but I find that holding both is really what's required for healing. Absolutely. And I think when we make space for both, we can deal with the intricacies that come with life. You know, I think in the mental health field as a therapist, I practiced for nine years up until 2020. And that is when I pivoted to corporate wellness work. But I think our current climate around mental health is, how can I feel good all the time? And when we don't

take the time to explore our emotions, the story behind our emotions, I think sometimes we forget that pain can also have a purpose, right? I think that when we look in the cracks and crevices of our pain and our hurt and our traumas, we can realize, yes, there are things that happen to us that we can't control. We can't change history. We can't change our past. But we do harness a power within to be able to overcome the difficulties that we've experienced in life.

And sometimes that's going to be hard. Sometimes that's going to make me sad. Sometimes that will make me want to cry. But that doesn't mean I'm not healing, right? It just means I'm human. And that is what this work really speaks to, allowing two opposing things to coexist and know that pain is hard to deal with. But there is also power that I hold as a person where I don't have to allow that pain to control me or even dictate the type of future I see for myself.

It's funny. My mom had back surgery a few weeks ago, and she's still in the hospital. She's had a number of setbacks. But that very idea, when you were saying that, it just hit me. She thinks the fact that she's in pain is a sign that this went badly, whereas it's not. I mean, it could be, but it's part of what she needs to overcome. And if she's waiting and looking for there not to be pain in the healing process, she's not going to engage in the healing. And so this applies on so many different levels. Yeah, I connected with it too.

It just made me think about, even recently, I've caught myself in this mindset, which is if I'm not careful, like if I wake up one day and I'm in a low mood or feel low or feel heavy or feel just, I don't know if sad, maybe sad's too far. It's just, I don't feel great. My first inclination is to think like, what am I doing wrong? You know, what am I doing wrong in this day? What could I do differently so that I'd be doing it better? So I'd feel better. But I can remind myself in those moments, like you just reminded us, that it's part of the human experience. It doesn't mean we're doing something wrong. Or even more importantly, to remember, it's not that we are wrong for feeling those emotions, right? You talk about the inability to cope with our emotions

can often come from judging them, judging our emotions. You know, labeling emotions as bad, come from judging them, judging our emotions. Labeling emotions as bad and then assuming we are bad people for feeling them instead of learning to accept and embrace them, that they exist because we're human. I just find that such a powerful thing to remember. You know, it's funny that you bring that story up about your mother, Eric, because my mother had knee replacement surgery two weeks ago, which is a very extensive surgery if you know anyone who's ever dealt with it. And I am her primary caretaker through all of this. Wow. Yeah. It's very interesting because while taking care of her, you know, the first week was

extremely hard. As we moved into the second week, she had moments where I saw in her face, she looked like she was really sad and depressed. And I would ask her what's wrong. And she's just like, I feel really bad that you have to do all of this for me. She had a lot of guilt. And she's just like, you're sacrificing so much of your time. And I said to her, Mom, I can sacrifice two to three weeks of my life to take care of you. Remember, the way you feel right now is not your forever.

I know you're going to heal. You're in pain for two to three weeks. The healing process for a surgery like this, the immediate healing process takes about three to four weeks. I can sacrifice that. But I had to remind her, I'm like, see, the issue is your mindset right now is this is your forever. And remember, if I have hope that you're going to heal, I need you to have that same level of hope for yourself too. And I think sometimes when we're in pain, we go into forever mode. Am I ever getting out of this? Almost always, I would say. And I don't use that word often.

But I find myself almost always, my first thought is like, well, this is how it's just going to be. But I like the word hope that you just dropped in there, that you held hope she's going to get better. And so she can also perhaps kind of share in your hope for her. Exactly. And maybe benefit from that. That brings me back to the power of community care. And that's why that's so central to my work, because I always say if I can have hope for myself, I can extend it to you. And I can hope that you would have hope for your own situation. And if you can't have it,

I'll have it for you. Because I'm believing something better for you so that when moments when I look at your face and I see sadness sketched in your eyes and I see you watering up with tears in your eyes, I can look at you and be hopeful for you in moments when you feel like you can't think of joy or cultivate happiness. I'll be that person for you because I know you will heal. You're making progress already

and that goes to anything in life. And I think this is why having people is so important in the work that I practice as a therapist, but just also in life, because I think sometimes we're in that dark tunnel and you know how they have that metaphor, you're looking for a light. And sometimes I think people are our light. Even if the both of us are in that dark tunnel together and we don't see the light that we're looking for, that person can be the light that you need in that moment.

And that's just why I think it's important for us to bring people into our experiences as we journey. Because sometimes our suffering can become so magnified that we need someone else to remind us, if I'm going to be hopeful in this moment, I encourage you to be hopeful as well. But if you can't do that, I'll do it for you. Oh, Mina, that is so beautiful. Yeah. I was interviewed last week for an addiction summit. I have a background with addiction.

And the person said like, well, what one thing do you believe to be true about addiction? And I said, well, in general, I'm going to say addiction is too complex to boil it down to one thing. I said, well, in general, I'm going to say addiction is too complex to boil it down to one thing. But if I was forced to say one true statement about addiction, it would be that people don't recover by themselves. It doesn't mean you have to go to 12-step groups, but doing it alone for the vast, vast majority of people isn't going to work. And it's partially what you just said. It's in the grips of addiction, it feels completely hopeless. And I know for me, being in meetings where I saw other people who said, I felt just like that, but look at me now, was what got me through many, many days when I didn't have

any hope that I could get better. But I saw that they did. And that was enough to sort of carry me through. You know, Eric, that's so funny, the parallel that's happening between us right now. Yeah, totally. Because people often ask me what made me center community care in my work. And I went to NYU to study social work in my graduate program. And my second year placement was at Hazelden Betty Ford Foundation.

I'm not sure if you're familiar with them. Yes. And in Hazelden, our core way of working with our clients is through group therapy. And that practice of sitting with people, letting them listen to each other's stories, teaching them to manage conflict in the room, helping them practice compassion and empathy in a room of 12 strangers who had to go on a six-month journey together in that program, that to me modeled what community care looks like. And that is why I made community care at the center of my work, being an intern at Hazelden. Wow. Yeah, it's such a beautiful thing to see. I mean, I went through a six month halfway house and it was the same sort of thing. It was groups. And I always say to people,

like, I've done a lot of healing on my own through meditation and spiritual practices and therapy and all that, but equally important and equally powerful to me, if not more so has been all the group work that I've done of different types over the years. It's so, so powerful. The quote that you put at the beginning of your book really struck both of us. You say, self-care is the bridge to community care and community care is the bridge to community healing. And that really is a foundational theme in your book, which I think is so important that we just talked about. Yeah. It speaks to this concept of what Eric just said, right? You can do all this healing work and that's beautiful. You can meditate, you can go on retreats, you can even go to therapy and do that one-on-one work. But in my book, I always go back to this focus of, but we heal to integrate into

community. We heal because relationships are at the center of our wellbeing. We heal because relationships are at the center of our well-being. We heal because being a part of a community helps us to combat loneliness. It boosts our self-esteem. It increases feelings of confidence. That plays a critical role going back to early childhood, infancy, the importance of a child developing attachment with a caregiver. Why do we think attachment and building bonds stops once we turn 18, right? You know, this is a journey, which is why from infancy it's important we develop it, but the goal is for that to move with us through life. I encourage people to be doing the healing work that they need, but don't forget about how that healing work is also a part of a

larger system, which is the community that we live in. And even this world that we complain about, this world that's full of so much oppression, this world that's full of so much hate and chaos, well, guess who makes the world function? People. Indeed. As healing as community can be, it can also be a source of great pain and trauma, right? The systems that injure and oppress on various levels. And that's another, I found just really compelling theme in your book. And I wonder if you would feel comfortable sharing a story with us that you share in the book about something that happened to you when you were 10 years old in Home Depot. And I think it's an important and really powerful story if you're comfortable sharing it here, because I think it illustrates so many different points that maybe we'll touch on

through our conversation. Yeah, I can absolutely share it. I will start off by saying that I had to record the audio book recently. And when I started sharing this story, I started to tear up. So in case that happens in this moment and people hear my voice cracking, it's a very deeply emotional story for me to revisit, but I do want to share it because I think it's important. So when I was 10 years old, I was in a Home Depot, specifically in Fort Myers, Florida and the state of Florida in our current climate, shouldn't be shocking that this happened to me. And so what ended up happening is I was walking in an aisle with my uncle and my uncle is deaf and my parents were in a different part of the store. And me and my uncle, we were in the aisle by ourselves. And I saw these two white male police officers coming down the aisle, making eye contact with me and looking at me very firmly.

So here I am in my body, 10 years old, grew up with the belief that my parents shared with me. If a cop ever approaches you, it means you did something bad. Just keep your cool, keep your calm. So that's what's playing in my head because I see them making eye contact, walking toward me, and I just feel so frozen in my body. them making eye contact, walking toward me. And I just feel so frozen in my body. My trauma response is kicking in, especially also because I knew I would have to be doing most of the communicating. And so they come and approach me and they're like, ma'am, can we please see your ID? And so I'm like, ma'am, like, I know I look older than I typically am. Like, you know, at 10, people mistaken me as a teenager.

But to be called ma'am was just so off-putting and it was just so strange, you know. So I'm staring at him and he's like, well, how old are you? And I said, I'm 10 years old. So at that point, I start communicating with my uncle to find my parents in the store somewhere because I could tell they needed to have a conversation that I wasn't equipped to have. He finds them. My parents come and they approach the officers and they're like, can you tell us what's going on? And the officer responds and says, a woman identified your daughter and said she stole her purse, then proceeded to steal her wallet out of her purse. And as I heard that story, literally the little

10-year-old me who was frozen in fear instantly was like, what? I didn't do that. And I even write in a book, I felt like I had an alibi already at 10 years old where I'm like, I was doing this and I was doing that and I was with my uncle. And what are you talking about? I didn't steal anything. So the officers didn't believe me. They kept having rebuttals. Well, this is what the woman said. And so my parents intervened.

And I just remember listening to my parents defending me. But there was one particular thing that they said in that moment that I had never forgotten. And I heard them say, it's because we're Black, isn't it? And I remember as a child thinking to myself, they approach me because I'm Black. And I grew up in a predominantly Black neighborhood, went to predominantly Black schools, so I never really thought of being othered, you know, because I was always amongst my own people. And when my parents said that, I heard a negative connotation in their voice, though. So I thought, well, who cares if they're white? Why does it matter that we're Black?

thought, well, who cares if they're white? Why does it matter that we're black? And they continued on arguing with each other. My parents refused to back down. And all of a sudden the officers were like, you know what? Forget it. We're going to leave it alone. And I remember walking out of that store and at 10, I know I was young, but I was a little emotionally mature at my age because of some of the things that I've gone through. And I just remember thinking, so they're not going to like look for footage to see if I did this. They're not going to see if there are any key witnesses to see if I did this. And then I remember my parents saying, who is this woman? Where is she? She's hiding and she's being protected. Meanwhile, this child is being blamed for a crime she did not do. And so that story was the beginning of me having to reconcile with what it meant to be Black in America.

And I remember going home, sitting with my parents who said to me, because of the color of your skin, there are going to be things that you endure and things that you face in this country simply because you are Black. And there are going to be some things that we may not be able to equip you to help you navigate these situations because they're so complex and they're going to be so deep, but they're going to travel with you everywhere you go. And so this is why you have to be this particular person. You have to show up in the world this particular way, which kind of creates this idea of the strong Black woman trope. You can't cry. You can't be

weak. You can't show certain parts of yourself because people will say you're ghetto. People will say you're uneducated. People will say you're not good enough. And that, it's unfortunate, but the things that they said came to fruition. And I had to learn how to navigate those things as an adult in this country. But that would be the story that shaped how I see myself in this world. I want to sort of hold a moment for the power and the real grief that's there still. I can just, yeah, see that and hear that in your voice. I'm wondering, as you mentioned in your book, so if some of this grief, you say that reading words around being Black, being exhausting, that those words can fill you with grief.

Because, yes, you're exhausted, but it had nothing to do with being Black. It had everything to do with the power of white supremacy and how those roots run deep within American soil. Can you tell me a bit about the grief that you still hold, the sadness that this story still kind of evokes in you, and what that is connected to specifically now? I think it's connected to the grief of knowing that you can exist in a world where simply because of your race, people will literally want you dead. The fact that if I knock on the wrong door, someone will shoot me. The fact that if I enter a particular neighborhood because of the color of my skin, someone would demand identification from me. The fact that I could be walking in a grocery store and someone would just say,

I want to kill Black people today, and I could be a victim of that. And I share those examples because those are not just opinions. Those are facts of things that have happened in American society. And every time a Black and brown person is murdered simply because of their race, I can think to myself, that could have been me. And that is deeply hard to reconcile with, to know that you're doing something as small as looking through an aisle to pick up dinner for your children, and someone could

murder you in a supermarket because you are Black. I could be pulled over, which I have many times, and because I'm Black, someone will have a bias about me. And because of the bias that they refuse to check, the willful ignorance they refuse to work on. They will aim to shoot before they listen. And I feel like what's sad is that I felt this way at 10. My parents felt this way. My grandparents felt this way. And my ancestors have felt this way. So it has never changed. way. So it has never changed. When I look in our current climate and I think about the racial injustices and the thought leaders and the activists, I think to myself, when are we going to stop having this conversation? Because when you look through the history books, from the moment slavery came to America, we have been asking people to see us as more than one-fourth human.

And it is hard to live like that. But I have to make an active choice daily to see myself as a valuable member of my society. Because if I don't, those thoughts will kill me. Those thoughts will leave me depressed. Those thoughts will leave me anxious because I have to leave my house if I want to enjoy life, right? And so I think that is why that pain still deeply resonates because white supremacy being exhausting still exists. And all of these systems of oppression, they just keep manifesting with new faces. Before it was in shackles and chains and having slave masters, and now it's just embedded in systems. It's embedded in the jail system.

It's embedded in adultification bias, which is why at 10 years old, a police officer called me ma'am and expected me to have identification. So it just has a new face and it has a new name, but it's still a system that is intended to harm us and to kill us. I want to be very explicit with the killing. It is intended to kill. And that is what is deeply hard. And when I think about that story 23 years later, I can still feel the grief and the pain of that. Because you would think 10 years, 23 years later, things would have changed enough, and they haven't. And I have to reconcile with that daily. It's just, I find myself, you know, at a loss for words and struck by your power in how you then respond by saying, and I'll read your words here. You're telling someone that you're very much aware that there are people in this world who hate me for being black, but I love myself and how I see myself trumps the opinion of others. I cannot allow the judgments of others to rule and define how I live my life. And I stand in awe of that power that you have claimed and

that you have to choose that response and then begin a healing journey from there. I have to. My life depends on that. My happiness depends on that. So I wrote that because I know Black and brown people are tired. Hence that narrative in the book, being Black is exhausting. It's not exhausting. It's beautiful. It's wonderful. It's wonderful. Systems are exhausting. They are. But I want to be happy. And I know I deserve to be happy. And despite the judgments that people have about me, my race, my gender, those things coexisting, I have to ask myself, how do I see me? Because that is really all that matters. There's going to be hate everywhere I go. And it might not even be because of the color of my skin. It could be because I'm a woman. It could be because I'm successful. It could be because of so many things, right? When we even take it under the microscope of race, it could be for so many things, that there are people in this world who just won't like you,

who will hate you, who will have judgments. And if I let their ideologies be my compass, I will not move anywhere in this world. So I wake up every day saying to myself, what do I think I deserve? And let me live in alignment with that. And that is how knowing that deep pain that I just shared, I can also make space. Remember the power of two things coexisting. I can own and recognize the hurt, the pain, the trauma around

race and still celebrate who I am as a Black woman and be happy about the fact that I exist in Black skin and be happy about my cultural roots that go back to Panama and Colombia and what it means to be an American woman and what it means to be in Black skin and own that and be happy about that and revel in the joy around that because I too deserve good things. And so I make it a habit to take up space and people are really going to hate me for that. And that makes me feel good to know that despite knowing that all of this hap exists around me, the things that I cannot control, the judgments of people, guess what?

I have wonderful friends in my life. Friends who are white, Black, Asian of all races, not just Black friends. So there are people who want to be in community with me. And that is where I give my energy. That is where I invest in. Those are the people that I show up for because of how they show up for me. And I think that is the beauty of just being able to own who you are and own your struggles. And again, allow those two opposing things to coexist. But find your people. Find your people. And that's the message I really want people to take away from here, especially Black and

brown people. Find your people and live in alignment with the truth you have over yourself, but also allow others to be that light for you, right? And I think that is what helps me just move through life, being the joyful me to be that I am. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like... Why they refuse to make the bathroom door

go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth.

Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts his stuntman reveals the answer and you never know who's going to drop by mr brian cranson is with us hello my friend wayne knight about jurassic park wayne knight welcome to really no really sir bless you all hello newman and you never know when howie mandel might just stop by to talk about judging really that's the opening really Really? No, really. Yeah, really. No, really. Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason

bobblehead. It's called Really? No, Really. And you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I wanted to pivot just a slight bit. There's a line that you have, you say that our core beliefs are like the soil of the earth and our thoughts are the seeds that we plant. And I wanted to ask you to expand upon that, but I also wanted to ask you to expand upon that in light of everything we just were talking about with an idea of internalized oppression and talk a little bit about what that is. And I think it applies, as you said,

it applies from a race perspective. It applies from a female perspective. It applies from being a poor perspective, right? There's so many different ways that this process of internalized oppression can happen. And so then maybe from there, broaden out to the seeds in the soil. Yeah. So, you know, internalized oppression is this inward battle. And what I mean by that is people who experience internalized oppression, they start to believe the negative ideologies they've heard about themselves. And for Black and brown people in particular, this actually dates back to historical trauma. If you are enslaved, you are told you are only considered one-fourth human.

You are perceived as an animal, hence the term coon in Black culture, right? Coon is short for raccoon. hence the term coon in Black culture, right? Coon is short for raccoon. And that is what people used to call Black people as a way to refer to us as animals. So if you're told you're an animal, you're told you're not good enough. And for centuries, right? I say this all the time, and I don't mean this in a negative way, but to be truthful, in our current climate, a lot of us can't even handle one bad day. Okay? We can't even handle one bad day. Truth.

Like, can we just be real with ourselves here? Oh, my God. We can't even handle one bad day. We can't handle being burnt out for two weeks. Okay? day. We can't handle being burnt out for two weeks, okay? Imagine 400 years of slavery and oppression and what that does to your state of mind. When you look in the mirror, what do you think about yourself? If you have been enslaved, your mother was enslaved, your grandparent was enslaved, your whole lineage has been enslaved, you have no marker for what it means to be whole. And so if you are being taught all of these negative ideologies about yourself, then what do you teach your children? And so internalized oppression is when we literally

start to believe the negative concepts and stereotypes that oppressive people have told us about ourselves. And so if you have been told that you're not smart, you're not educated, not only will you believe it, you won't work toward anything. So now it shows in your actions, it, you won't work toward anything. So now it shows in your actions, right? Because our thoughts inform our behaviors. And that is what I mean when I talk about our beliefs and our values and this concept of the soil. The soil is the foundation. Everything needs a foundation. You can't build a house with no foundation. And even if you have one, if that foundation is rocky, when I watch HGTV, when they start, they go into the basement and they're ripping up the floors, oh, we see cracks. We

can't keep building. Imagine when that crack is in your spirit and when that crack is in the way you think about yourself. How do you build on top of that when already the system you're building on is broken? And so the thoughts, those seeds, now you already have a rocky foundation, and those seeds that you're planting in that rocky foundation are your thoughts. But if the foundation is rocky, it's this cycle. What do I think about myself? How do I view myself? And on a larger scale, but thinking of historical trauma,

because it is trauma that happens to a particular race or ethnic group, how do I see people who look like me? Because even as you see outlined in my book, when I'm talking about white supremacist ideologies, I even name it, there are people of color who also harness white supremacist ideologies, right? if you've been hearing these things about yourself over and over and over again, you might start to work toward leaning into the white gaze, which is what I share in my book, where I thought to myself, well, I remember having an experience where I used to feel very shy about communicating because I didn't feel like I spoke correctly. I didn't think that I spoke well and I didn't think I sounded intelligent when I would speak. But then I had to check myself and say, but who do you have those concerns about? When you're around, what group of people? When are you thinking that? And I had to admit to myself and say, well,

specifically when it's around white people, I'm more cognizant about how I speak. But when I'm around black people, I don't care. I don't care what they think about me and how I talk. And that's because I'm performing for the white gaze. And so all of those things are blended together, where one of the things we have to remember is our beliefs are going to dictate the life we think we deserve. And that often is the thing that strips people of their power. You are the person who's in charge of harnessing that power. And so if you're telling yourself you're not good enough, that is the foundation that you're already setting. How do you build on that, right? The things you tend to build on that are negative. I don't think people

can be trusted. I don't think people from certain groups can be trusted. And so it continues to spread and trickle in different domains of your life. And that is how we end up in this constant state of what feels like brokenness. Because the foundation is already broken. I feel broken. And how am I allowing people in if I'm not trusting the people around me and I have broken perceptions and ideologies of them too? And so that is what it looks like when you bridge that concept to this concept of internalized oppression, aka internalized racism. The word belief, I think, is actually really important because we actually believe it very much to be true. And usually we'll come up with evidence to justify that it's true. Those things don't just change because I'm like, well, I guess maybe, you know, those are deep patterns.

And so what is the process of changing long held, deeply held beliefs? I like that you used what is the process because it is indeed a process, right? I think sometimes people want a specific formula. So if I write out six affirmations, Mina, will I be better at having better belief systems? And I'm like, well, you might have to write some affirmations out on top of doing this and then exploring your childhood trauma and then also exploring where you got those beliefs from. It's complex. I'm going to be honest. It is so complex.

But I often find getting to the root, sometimes breaking up the concrete so that we can get to the soil, is where the starting place is. Because we first have to ask ourselves, I always challenge people and say, well, where did you hear that from? Where did you get this concept from? For some people, it might look like going back to childhood. It might look like exploring their parent dynamics and saying, well, I grew up around emotionally immature parents who told me I was ugly, who told me I was stupid, who told me in order for me to be beautiful or be in a relationship, I had to be thin. Sometimes it starts in your childhood. For other groups of people, it might be understanding the way, because again,

these different systems around oppression and racism and how it's not just in individual acts, it's also a system that infiltrates in our media. It infiltrates in our education system. And so what does it look like when you turn on the TV and your whole entire life, all you saw was white families. And the Black families you saw were single-parent homes. And the white families had two parents, had a two-parent household, right? Some of those things, some of those beliefs are deeply ingrained in us because of what we're exposed to, right? And so I think it

absolutely looks different for everyone, but I think it goes back to that concept of, again, breaking through the concrete and saying, I need to dig through this soil and ask myself, who planted this seed here? Where did this concept come from? And now I have to start doing inner work of challenging those ideologies. And then I also have to do this extra work of asking myself, well, what do I deserve? Because I often work with people too. And when they have these negative concepts, I say, and how are these beliefs making you happy? And they'll do some self-reflection and say, actually, consistently thinking about myself in this way makes me miserable.

It's making me depressed, right? And you see that link between mental health and our thoughts. It's actually not increasing my self-esteem. It's not increasing my confidence. It's actually linked to me feeling even worse about myself. So now what are some things that I need to start doing to rewire the way I think? And thinking of that rewiring system, it's not just on you. Now we need to call in people. This is the part of community care. I need to call in people who can help me look at myself in a way that is valuable. I have to start reconciling with the fact that my parents are not healthy people. I have to start reconciling with the fact that the person I married,

oh, this is touchy, the person I married is not healthy for me. I may have to look inward and reconcile with the fact that those friendships I've had since childhood, they're not healthy for me because I am linked to people with toxic tendencies and I'm linked to people with abusive patterns, which is keeping my belief about myself stuck. Because often abusers, manipulators, those types of people want to benefit from you being broken. So they keep you in that state of being, you know? And so it is a whole system that honestly needs to be dug up from the ground. And after you're doing this inner work of self-exploration, that is where you call in people and you might realize I have to get rid of some people and I even need to make space for

people who can see me in my fullness and start to help me reframe my beliefs about myself. And I also have to reconcile with the fact that there are going to be people in my life who I love and I want them around, but I can't listen to the things they say about me because they're stuck in a place of trauma and they only know how to spew trauma toward me. They only know hurt. They only know judgment. They only know to chastise. And so I want to call them and talk on the phone, but I can't anymore. I want to run to my mom or run to my dad, but I can't anymore.

And so that is what the process looks like. It is a huge process that requires inner work, but also outer work around the people that we coexist with in this world. I'm repeatedly struck by just how powerful it can be to like in your metaphor actually find the crack, like to see it and to see it as a thing. Like in this context, it would be like beginning to name these things, name these beliefs, name these wounds. In your book, you talk about turning into the voice of your inner child when it comes to what your trauma response might be. And so like for me, when I read how people might engage in behaviors that are not hostile, but passive and started to go through that list, I started having language and words and naming what those responses look like. I began to see them in myself.

And I thought, oh, like it's all of a sudden now it's a thing I can begin to examine. I can begin to see if I'd like to do it that way or try it a different way, you know? See, is it something that's innately harmful or somehow it can be not a harmful thing in my life? Like just, I can examine it, you know, and then act on it. And in the action, this sentence just kind of really struck me around boundaries. Because I think setting boundaries is one way we can. And like you say, boundaries teach us that we are not powerless people. I'd never thought of it that way before.

I love that as boundaries are a way of claiming our power, taking an action towards that, not just saying it, you know, but doing it. And that our window of tolerance, right, can alert us to when it's time to set a boundary for the sake of your nervous system and your emotional health. That is a real active way to begin the healing, I think. Don't you? Yeah. Absolutely. You know, I always tell people boundaries is something that is always ebbing and flowing because we experience new things all the time that we might say, I never had a boundary for this. Now I need to figure out what to implement here. You know?

And so often our window of tolerance between hyper arousal and hypoarousal, where you find yourself constantly fluctuating between anxiety, fight, flight, panic mode, anxiousness, but then also ebbing to the other end of the spectrum where you feel depressed, you're understimulated, you feel numb, you want to detach, you want to isolate. And your window of tolerance will help you understand, listen, we're starting to get exhausted swinging back and forth between these two spaces. So you have to step in and do something to regulate yourself here so that you can get back to your center, get back to your state of equilibrium, and also get back to a state of calm, that area that is healthy for you, where you can function as an adult. And so our boundaries help us to see that, oh, I'm not as powerless as I think I am. And the reason why I share that is because often when we're interacting with people, I think we have a tendency to want the other person to know better. We want the other person to do the work of changing or being self-aware or just recognizing

the things that they're doing to us instead of us being the one to name it and say, listen, there's no reason for you to be calling my phone five times in a row, right? And that's a simple boundary. Or a larger boundary where it's like, I really don't appreciate when you speak to me like this. It's very judgmental. And it can be so powerful to own that you have the ability to stand up for yourself. You have the ability to protect yourself. I think safety is at the root of any relationship in life. And safety is what also helps us navigate through the world. As we know, talking about trauma responses in a nervous system, a dysregulated nervous system is searching for safety. And so hence we have mood imbalances. We also might have

those somatic symptoms where we're having migraines, gut imbalances. Our body is alerting us that we don't feel safe and we're being exposed to something that is impacting our safety. But sometimes I think a lot of people have this concept that in order to feel safe, the people around us have to adjust and engage in certain behaviors instead of us recognizing we have power to name and call out the things we do not like and the things we're no longer willing to tolerate to be safe, right? I think sometimes too, when we feel threatened by something, we expect the person imposing the threat to pull back from threatening us instead of us saying, the threat to pull back from threatening us instead of us saying, this is where I draw a line.

Because I see you have some issues around boundaries. You have issues around how you speak to people. You have some sort of issue regarding the circumstance we're in. So I have to be the one to draw the line here because I see you may not know better. And sometimes it boils down to that. It boils down to people acting in their own trauma responses. It boils down to people thinking they're doing something that is okay because other people tolerate it. So they think you will tolerate it. And we have to understand that in order to be in relationships, we have to communicate. It's okay to express your desires and needs to someone and take a step back to see if they can meet those needs. And if they can't, there's going to be some grief with that, but you're still not powerless in that process. You can decide, how close do I want to be with you?

Do I need to adjust the degree of closeness or do I need to just become estranged? Do I need to cut this relationship off altogether? cut this relationship off altogether, you know? And so it's really all about us recognizing and owning the power that we hold to, once again, you're always going to hear me say this, give ourselves the life we feel we deserve. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor.

We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts?

His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Bryan Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just

stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really No Really. Yeah, really. No really. Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I had a question around these sort of passive coping strategies, right, that we use. sort of passive coping strategies, right, that we use. Things like chronic niceness or putting other people's needs before your own or... Feeling responsible for other people's feelings and trying

to fix or control their emotions. Yeah. That one's a little bit clearer, but this is where I personally find myself challenged. Because some of those things, the outward behavior might be the same, right? So, for example, you might be a nice person and be kind to people because it's something you value. You also might be chronically over nice because you're afraid if you're not, no one will like you, right? These things are very close to each other in the way they appear. And one of the things that I struggle with is that internal discernment. I get that it's all about what my intention is in doing it, right? So, I mean, I think that's the first place is to try and do that. But I find that sort of, even when I'm doing

that, it's still kind of tricky to tell, like, am I reacting out of a conditioned habitual response to, say, childhood events that I don't want to? Or am I sort of responding because I'm a person who values taking care of others and helping other people? And it's an area of discernment that I often find challenging. I love that you say that. One, I love that you're using the word discernment because I think that wisdom is what a lot of us need to be able to help us understand what are our intentions. The other thing to it is the thing about relationships is no relationship is equal. And so I think it's also important to remember

how our discernment and our intentions can ebb and flow because in this relationship, I want to be nice. I want to do this thing. But maybe there's a different relationship in my life where I feel obligated to do it. I'm afraid to speak up. I'm afraid to say no. So I'm just acting out of condition. But as a result, right? And I always tell people, after you act on something, do some inner work to self-reflect

about how that action impacted your life. Because sometimes prior to doing something, it can be hard to discern what the intention is. But the aftermath can sometimes help us understand the why. What led me to do this thing? I find some people will say, yeah, I'll go to the party or yeah, I'll pick up your workload. And then when they do it, or even in the midst of doing it, they're frustrated. They're angry. And it's like, well, who are you angry at? Right? The person who made the request or the person who agreed to doing

the thing that they did not want to do. Right? And I think sometimes this is where trial and error comes in. And I think we need to make space as humans for trial and error. Because when you are trying to do this work, right, this work of being whole, of being healthy, there are going to be moments where you just do something and you realize, oh man, that didn't feel good. I said yes to it. Or I did this particular thing out of the act of being nice. I thought it was being nice. And now I'm in the middle of doing it or the aftermath of it makes me realize, oh man, I shouldn't have done this thing. I feel resentful. I feel regretful about it.

And that is just an opportunity for you to learn and put that nugget into your bag of life and say, you know what? Next time this opportunity comes my way, I'll resist urgency and I'll practice the power of pause so that I can give myself more room to think about, well, what are my intentions here? Because last time the scenario came up, I thought I wanted to do this thinking it was a nice thing and thinking I was just being a nice person, but the aftermath of it really drained me. It really impacted me deeply. It made me miserable. I was frustrated even doing it. So do I really want to do this thing again? Or is it just embedded in me to show up for certain people this way or to show up and be nice in this particular way? And so I think it's just important for us to always do that

self-reflection work even after the fact, but also sometimes we just have to allow life to happen and let life be the thing that shows us, oh man, you shouldn't do this again, right? And allow that to be a roadmap for how we move forward and the different relationships we navigate into. But I think that part about relationships is also important. Remember, no relationship is equal. I might be willing to do something for a best friend that I wouldn't be willing to do for an acquaintance. Even in a marriage, I might be willing to do something for my partner, but just a friend, maybe not. I don't think I want to do that. And if I force myself to do it, forcing it is a key word already, you know? And so I think giving ourselves permission

to show up differently for different people in different circumstances also helps us use discernment in those circumstances as well. Yeah. And tying back to your broader message about community, I often say that discernment often needs community. That I'm able to discern things by talking to other people. I'm able to see things that I'm not seeing when I'm processing it in my own head. to that concept of who you surround yourself with. People who are also investing in you and pouring into you and have firm beliefs about you, even when you don't have positive beliefs about yourself. Are there people around you who want good for you, who want good things to happen for you? And sometimes they are the compass that leads you towards your future. And so community care is just vital for our growth and our well-being. And I think we should all be cognizant of how we practice being in community with people. You've got a technique

that you talk about in the book that I thought was really interesting. I was hoping you could share it with listeners around audio journaling, because I think this is another way of getting it out of our head and being able to process it differently. So can you share kind of what audio journaling is? Yeah. So I'm going to be deeply vulnerable here and share how audio journaling came to life for me. And that is because I live alone. And sometimes when I'm stressed out, I just talk. I talk out loud. I talk to myself, y'all. It happens. Same, same. I'll meet you there. Yep, yep.

I'm quite sure my dog is not listening to anything I'm saying. He's absolutely not responding. So I'm just having conversations with the walls, the couch, the dog. I have a deaf dog who I talk to all the time. It's obvious she can't hear a word I'm saying. When you process orally or verbally, you just got to talk it out, don't you? Yes, you do. And I think that is where the concept came from that I actually started to share with my clients who started to give me wonderful feedback around it.

And the reason why is because talking out loud is linked to two things. One, yes, it helps us with discrepancies in our thinking. So I find that when we're talking out loud, the same way a friend will call you up and say, hey, this is what's going on. I'm angry. I'm frustrated. They're looking to you for some level of advice or feedback. And you're able to listen and pick up on things that may not make sense, things that may sound irrational, and you're able to feed it back to them. Now, the reason why a lot of us do that is because what we're seeking in that moment is something called co-regulation. When my nervous system

is dysregulated, it could be dysregulated from a breakup, from something that happened at work. Literally, maybe I was walking down the block and something happened and I'm just so anxious. I'm flustered. I'm calling someone because I need their nervous system to balance mine out. And so the way the brain works is there's those mirror neurons that light up when we're in connection with other people. We also have that wonderful chemical of release called oxytocin that draws us closer to people. And so I find that one of the things that happens for people, however, is the option to co-regulate may not always be available. I am big on co-regulating. I love being around people.

I am super social. I want to talk on the phone, voice note, FaceTime. I want to do all those things, but I have enough discernment to understand people are not always going to be available. I'm not always going to be able to have brunch on the weekends. I'm not always going to be able to FaceTime a friend and talk over the phone. I might send a voice note. I might not hear back until later on that night. I still have to find a way to regulate my body. I can't depend on someone else to always be the thing that I need. And so this is where that concept of audio journaling comes in because now it teaches us how to self-regulate. And I think the same way we would share certain things with a friend, hoping that they would pick up on those discrepancies and give us advice,

I find that when we speak out loud, we can hear something that when we think in silence, it may be hard to pick up on. And so this concept of audio journaling is really straightforward. You grab your phone, you turn on the recording app, and you just talk. What are you thinking of? And if you're not ready to play it back, it's fine. But just speaking out loud and hearing yourself could be enough for you to say, does that make sense? Right?

Because science also shows that 80% of our thoughts are negative daily. Because science also shows that 80% of our thoughts are negative daily. So we're already waking up struggling to be hopeful, to be joyful, to be positive, if 80% of our thoughts are conditioned to always focus on what's going wrong. So there are times where we need to just speak out loud so that we can listen to the things that we're saying and then challenge our mindset. Because then when we challenge our mindset, that ultimately helps us challenge our beliefs, what we talked about earlier, right? And so I think that is just a way that people can learn to self-regulate when co-regulation isn't an option. It's a form of self-distancing also, which is another psychological technique. You change the way you refer to yourself internally and it creates a little bit of distance.

So I think it's another way that facilitates that. Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing to me that sometimes I will hear something come out of my mouth that I don't think I've ever consciously thought. I don't know where it came from. It just came out of my mouth. So I feel like this is a technique I'm absolutely going to give a try to, You know, I mean, I just think that it could be a really powerful one.

And I think it connects to another term that you mentioned in your book, which I'd love us to explore a little bit. When you mentioned self-regulation, this is what connected it to me, is this idea of emotional maturity. Maybe I'll just let you. Would you define that for us? Tell us about what it means to be emotionally mature. Yeah.

So one, I will bust a myth that age comes with maturity. That is not true. I think our parents and our elders used to teach that to us, especially the concept of respecting your elders when sometimes our elders are not the wisest people in the room and sometimes the most harmful people in the room, right? But being emotionally mature is about practicing discernment and wisdom. It is about practicing emotional intelligence, being in tune with your emotions, learning to hold yourself accountable, being responsible over your actions, and also learning to meet people where they are. I find that in our current culture, a lot of people struggle with this because we have been taught so long that, again, age equals maturity. And I think there are so many different

things that relate to why someone might be emotionally immature. One, trauma stunts development. And so on a cognitive level, on an emotional level, on a mental level, experiencing childhood trauma during your primitive years of development, which is ages traumatic events that are ongoing, and it's multiple different events that are ongoing versus one isolated situation, imagine being traumatized day after day after day after day, and that informs your childhood. That is going to have an impact on your well-being. So I think that's the first thing to understand because some people emotionally react from the place where their trauma started. So you might have this adult who's 45 years old who when they're angry or they're upset, they regress back to their childlike behaviors to self-protect. Some of their childlike behaviors might look like,

I threw a tantrum when I was a child. And so I screamed and I yelled because I needed attention. I needed someone to see me. And that was my way of being protected. And so at 45, I still scream and I still yell and I curse. But the problem is you're someone's boss. You can't do that at work, right? You can't do that anywhere, honestly, if you want a healthy relationship. And so I think on the other side of that, when you're the person interacting with someone with those types of behaviors, it can be important to just remember that how old a person is literally is just the system we created to keep track of how old a person is through life. It doesn't necessarily

help us understand emotionally and mentally who they are. And so when we learn to take responsibility for our emotions and our behaviors, we learn to do that internal work of being self-aware, that is how we start developing emotional maturity. So your trauma doesn't have to hold you back. You can heal through it. And that's the thing I want people to know too. You can reframe that. You can fix that. You can adjust that.

But it's going to look different for every person. So maybe we could wrap up with two ideas that you talk about that I think are sort of related to each other. And the first is you often talk about how healing is a ongoing daily sort of thing. And you also have a line that I absolutely love, which is self-care is a prevention strategy, not just a crisis response. And I have to say, I think that is one of the ways that I matured in my healing over the years was I actually figured that out and went from, I'm only doing this type of work when I really have to, to living this way. So talk about those

two ideas. I think those two things are extremely important if we want to live a life of wholeness and really doing the work to manage our mental health. One, healing is absolutely an ongoing process. As I shared earlier, there are going to be times where we experience things in life that are new to us that we never dealt with before, that we have to teach ourselves, how do I navigate this now? How do I manage this grief? How do I manage this pain? I've never did this before. I've never experienced it before. And I think we have to hold space for that and allow that to be a part of the process because this is life.

We can't determine what our next steps are. And I think it's because as people, we want to control things so badly that it's like, how could I not know my future? But we don't. And life is really all about leaning into every moment that is open to us and asking ourselves daily, what do I need to get through today? Because it might look different from what I experienced yesterday. I always tell people I had to go on this new journey of discovering what self-care meant for me because when the pandemic hit, it altered my life so much that three years later, the things that I loved

for years, I hate them now. I don't want to do it. I don't want to come close to some of those things. I used to love reading physical books in bed. I don't even want to touch a book. I'd rather listen to an audio book, right? I used to do so many things, but 2020 was a year of trauma. And so that trauma rewired the way I care for myself, right? This is what healing is a journey means. It means knowing when it's time to pivot. It means knowing when it's time to quit something because quitting can be a beautiful thing. And it's also knowing when it's time to call and help. And this is where the community part comes in. But also recognizing self-care as a prevention strategy is having a daily toolbox that we utilize so that there are certain practices that are part of our well-being so deeply it is now who I am.

I embody this thing. It is not something I just do. It is me. And I say that because, to use an example, people often ask me when I'm experiencing certain things, how come you're not taking that personally? And I'll say it has taken years of self-reflection and development for me to get to a place where I experience things so deeply and within five minutes I'm like, all right, well, that really hurts and I'm sad about it, but it is what it is. I have no idea what they're going through. Or maybe they just can't show up for me and I don't make it about me anymore. But that's

because I now embody this as a practice, which is why it's a prevention strategy versus something where it's like, oh man, I'm having a bad day. Now I have to figure out what to do. And I also tell people, your brain is always looking for safety. And so when you're having a very bad day. Now I have to figure out what to do. And I also tell people, your brain is always looking for safety. And so when you're having a very bad day or you're stressed out, self-care as a prevention strategy looks like what is familiar versus searching for something new. If I'm having an overwhelming day or I'm burnt out, I don't need to come home and say, well, what's for dinner? What am I going to cook? Just order the Chinese food. Order what you always eat, right?

Give your brain something familiar to stabilize itself. But it has to feel familiar. So when you make self-care a familiar practice, it is your go-to. And instead of engaging in fight or flight, your body now reacts in a state of calm because this is what you embody day to day. Thank you for sharing so much of yourself in your book and in this conversation. Thank you for sharing so much of your wisdom that is hard earned through your deep pain and also the way you actively choose and claim and embody your power. It has touched me deeply and I am just really grateful. I think this conversation will also reach out and touch a lot of other people deep. Yes. Thank you so much. It's really

been a pleasure. Thank you both so much. I enjoyed speaking with you both. And thank you, most importantly, for holding space. Absolutely. Take care. Thank you. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a monthly donation to support the One You Feed podcast. When you join our membership community with this monthly pledge, you get lots of exclusive members-only benefits. It's our way of saying thank you for your support. Now, we are so grateful for the members of our community. We wouldn't be able to do what we do without their support,

and we don't take a single dollar for granted. To learn more, make a donation at any level, and become a member of the One You Feed community, go to oneyoufeed.net slash join. The One You Feed podcast would like to sincerely thank our sponsors for supporting the show. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor what's in the museum of failure and does your dog truly love you we have the answer go to really know really.com and register to win 500 a guest spot

on our podcast or a limited edition sign jason bobblehead the really know really podcast follow us on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts