The One You Feed - How to Recover the Person You Were Meant to Be with Paul Churchill

Episode Date: February 27, 2024

In this episode, Paul Churchill shares his personal journey to sobriety as he learned to recognize and address his struggles with alcohol addiction. He delves into the complexities of moderation versus abstinence, highlighting the challenges and failures he encountered along the way. Paul also emphasizes the importance of seeking help and support on the journey to recover the person you were meant to be. In this episode, you will be able to: Understand the power of mindset in achieving sobriety and transforming your life Discover the crucial role of community support in overcoming alcohol addiction Explore the impact of labels and identities in your recovery journey Learn the importance of seeking help and support on your sobriety path. Uncover valuable insights into alcohol addiction and recovery that foster self-awareness and inspire positive change To learn more, click here!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Do you ever feel like life is just one problem after another? You finally feel like maybe there's a break and then BAM! Another problem? This is how it is for many of us, but there is a better way to respond. A way of responding that brings greater ease into your life and returns some of the energy that the problems drain from you. We are hosting a free live masterclass on Sunday, March 3rd called Learn the Keystone Habit to Unlock Energy and Ease in Your Life. In it, I will teach you how to tap into resources already within you so that

life feels less like a never-ending fight and more like an ever-evolving dance. You will learn the number one source of unhappiness that drains your energy and keeps you feeling stuck. And a simple mindset shift you can make right away so that life doesn't feel like such a constant struggle. This will be a live event and you'll have a chance to interact with me and each other. I've really grown to love these community events where we get to meet each other and deepen our connections and I hope that you can become part of that. Go to oneufeed.net slash live to learn more and register for this free event. Again, that's oneufeed.net slash live.

I hope to see you there. To bring people around a campfire, which we've been doing for hundreds of thousands of years as human beings, come together to discuss our differences, our resolve. And we are pack animals. Recently, it's like this wave of isolation, individualism, but wow, we need other human beings. We do.

Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep

themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Wolf. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor what's in the museum of failure and does your dog truly love you we have the answer go to really know really.com and register to win 500 a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition signed jason bobblehead the really know really podcast follow us on the i

heart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Paul Churchill. Paul is the creator and host of the Recovery Elevator podcast. Today, Paul and Eric discuss his great new book, Alcohol is Shit, How to Ditch the Booze, Reignite Your Life, and Recover the Person You Were Always Meant to Be. Hi, Paul. Welcome to the show. Eric, hello.

Thank you for having me. Yeah, I'm really excited to talk with you. We're going to be discussing your book called Alcohol is Shit, How to Ditch the Booze, Reignite Your Life, and Recover the Person You Were Always Meant to Be. But before we get into that, we will be starting with a parable like we always do. And in the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops and they think about it for a second. They look up at their grandparent and

they say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. Wow, Eric, thanks for having me. It's great to be here. I've heard you work for a long time, and thank you. So the older I get, the more I recognize that we do have an influence over our life, right? Our thoughts actually can instruct physical reality. And where I choose to put my mental energies, I find is what I get more in return. In fact, I came across a PDF on religions. You could distill them all into like one sentence or less.

And they're all the golden rule. Treat others the way you want to be treated. Treat thy neighbor the way you want to be treated. And I think with the parable, it's where you place your energies. Yes, we live in a world of duality, Eric, where there's good and bad. You have to have them both for definitional purposes. But I choose to see wholeness in everything. And I choose to nourish that part of me that is rooted in love, that is rooted in bravery, that is rooted in acceptance and wholeness. Yeah, I love it. That's a great answer. And one of the things on your podcast, Recovery Elevator, which is a great show for people who are interested in recovery, Paul's is one of the best shows out there. You talk about

what you just talked about there often. And even in your book later on, you talk a lot about the power of our thoughts. But where I'd like to start is with you have described that you have the single most accurate assessment test for alcohol. And the reason I want to start there is that a lot of people, they're not sure about do they have a problem with alcohol or drugs. Now, some of us, like me, I was pretty sure pretty early on, and it wasn't so much a question of whether I had a problem in my case, it was whether I was actually ever going to do anything about it, and whether if I did something about it, whether it would actually work. But I know many, many people have a more nuanced relationship with alcohol and drugs, and so they're asking themselves often, am I alcoholic? Or do I have a problem? Or should I stop drinking? And there's lots of different ways people phrase

that question. And there's lots of different surveys out there you can take. And you say you've got a one question survey that is the most accurate you know. So tell us about that. I do, Eric. And thanks for setting that up. I love this question because most of us embark on this deep, inner, explorative journey, spending thousands of dollars with therapists, online quizzes, questionnaires, you know, from the brightest minds and institutions. And yes, those do all the place. Eric, I agree, but it can be this simple. And it was this simple for me at the end is if you've ever asked the question, if you've ever wondered, do I have a drinking problem? That simple inquiry

just answered the question. And for example, okay, so I'm here, I have a book out called shit. I crashed and burned hard with alcohol, extremely hard, fast and early. I like how you described that for me. It was actually, I was thankful that question was answered very quick, but for many, and the stigma is part of this too, we go so far and so long into this when we don't need to do so. But I had a problem with alcohol. I don't struggle with gambling. Not once have I ever asked myself, you know, do we have a gambling problem? Do we have an online shopping problem? Do I have a sex problem? I've never asked myself those questions. So if you simply ask yourself, and I feel this inquiry, Eric, is coming from a deeper part of

yourself saying, yo, hey there, hey there, buddy, is coming from a deeper part of yourself saying, yo, hey there, hey there, buddy, this might be getting out of control. We might be going down a wrong path. And it's when that inner voice jumps in with those questions, with those narratives. If you ask the question, do I have a drinking problem or not? You probably do. And if you've ever entered into Google, into Google, like online self-alcohol assessment question, you've just answered it right there. You don't even need to take the test. if you've ever entered into Google, into Google, like online self-alcohol assessment question, you've just answered it right there. You don't even need to take the test. If you've ever entered, you know, how to quit drinking podcasts, like, you know, do

I have a problem? You've already answered the question. Let's assume that that's a fairly accurate diagnostic question. I tend to agree with you that you don't search for that sort of stuff if you're not having some sort of problem. You know, the other way it was often phrased to me is, you know, do you have a problem with alcohol? Well, is alcohol causing any problems in your life? If so, you have a problem with alcohol is another fairly clear one.

My following question would be, let's say that that is accurate. Does that mean that if I have answered yes to that question, that abstinence is the only path for me? Or is it perhaps that I have a problem that I need to moderate? I mean, different people have different opinions on this, right? And I'd be curious your opinion and your experience with this. Yeah, Eric, and this is where I think it gets so beautifully interesting. It's confusing. It's not a black and white world. It's full of paradoxes. There's a program called Alcoholics Anonymous started in 1935 by Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob. Many times in the big book, it says drinking is but a symptom, right? What does that mean? Alcohol is not the problem. It's not. It's a symptom of other unrest in your life. However,

to uncover that unrest and do any sort of inner growth work with that, the alcohol has to go. Now, great question. Is full abstinence the way to go? We can go here real quick with this. That's for everybody to decide. And I think everybody who eventually arrives at full abstinence has to go through this chapter of moderating, right? Look, I'm not drinking. I'm not drinking on the weekday or on the weekends. I'm not drinking alone, not drinking before work, not drinking in the Jupiter and moon or in eclipses together, whatnot. You get it. But these are lines in the sand that if you do struggle with alcohol, eventually every single one of them will be crossed. And so, okay, I've been doing this for a hot minute and I have not come across anybody in a long-term fashion here that

moderation has worked. I've heard stories of a couple of weeks, a couple of months in my own, in my own personal journey as well. Eric abstinence for me was the best way to go because of the progressiveness of alcoholism, but also the nature, the way of life works, life circumstances. This could be deaths in the family. This could be your own personal tragedy or whatnot. Alcohol is a darn good coping strategy for a short time. You know, I think it's interesting because that moderation piece is so true that I don't think anybody would get to the point of giving up alcohol or drugs if they actually love them, like any of us who have a problem with them do, there's no way it was going to give them up without having tried everything else possible first. You know, you

mentioned AA, there's a line in the AA big book, I think, basically along the lines that, you know, certain people will chase this idea that somehow, some way I'll control my drinking, you know, to the gates of insanity and death, right? I mean, that's what we're trying to do. And I tried all those things this last time when I got sober, what I hope is the last time, 15 years ago, I actually did a stint in moderation management as a program first. And I've shared about this before, but it was so good for me because I failed so badly at it, but I tried so hard. I had been sober eight years before. I knew what abstinence was. I knew what AA was. I was like, I do not want to go back and hang out with those people. I do not

want to give up my alcohol. So I tried everything I could and moderation management, and I couldn't do it. It would set out like, well, your weight or whatever, you could have two drinks a day or a drink and a half a day or whatever. And I was already immediately inflating my weight from about 145 pounds to about 180 pounds so that I could get to the two and a half drinks a day or whatever it was. Right. And then, of course, a drink is measured by certain number of ounces. But, you know, well, we don't have to be real accurate. So I was cheating from the very beginning. And even while cheating, I couldn't do it most of the time. I remember this, you know, this is one of my most like poignant memories of that time of it would be like, let's say 1130 at night. I worked a

corporate job. So I'd have to be up the next morning. I'm in my kitchen by myself. Everybody's gone to bed. It's not like I'm at a party. Nothing is happening. It's time to go to bed. And I'm standing there with a bottle of whiskey on the counter. And I'm trying to not take another drink for which there's no possible reason on earth to take another drink. There's no good reason. And I'm trying as hard as I can not to do it. And yet more often than not, I poured another drink. And I'm so glad I went through that process because then it was much clearer. Like, okay, my brain goes, well, moderation. I go, we tried that really hard and it just didn't work. Now, I'm not saying that's the way it is for everybody, but I know that in moderation management, what I saw was a lot of alcoholics hanging around hoping

that there was a moderate answer to this. Eric, I like how you phrased that. And through those failures, and I had hundreds of them with moderation, we almost learned that the abstinence actually is the path of least resistance. We think abstinence is this like, oh, my God, it's life in the dentist's chair, but it's flipped. Yeah. Because there is such an obsessive compulsion, as you mentioned, to find a way to drink without impunity, which I tried hundreds and hundreds of ways. I couldn't find it. But I think what we say is like moderate with alcohol. We almost say it like in brevity, like it's light, you know,

can't you have just a couple? But if you look at the addictive traits of the chemical alcohol, it's one of the most addictive drugs in the world. And if we were to say like moderate, you know, let's moderate our heroin or crack use, Like it just doesn't have the same ring to it when actually alcohol is this study show that it's just the most addictive drug in the world. And it kills more people every day than every other drug combined. Quite remarkable that way. And one of them thought of this in 2012, you know, apps are everywhere now, but there was a time when a BAC, a blood alcohol content app tracker came out and said, yes, here's a way to moderately drink. So I went to old Chicago's downloaded the app. I'm not going to be drunk driving home and to drink in that responsible

way at the, you know, the app told me when, when to order the next drink so I could be safe to drive. It was so painful, Eric. And I didn't even survive that. I just, all right, two more. Just deleted the app right then. Yeah. There's another line from the AA big book that I never fully understood. And it was that, you know, something about we could not control and enjoy our drinking. And what I realized was I get that. Like, if I'm trying to control it, A, I ultimately can't do it. But even while I'm trying to do it, I'm not enjoying my drinking. It's miserable.

You know, it's just, or I can completely let go of the control and then I'm able to enjoy it a little bit, of course, until it all comes crashing down. But that recognizing those two things is not being able to coexist was really helpful to me and leads me into another topic I want to discuss, though, because I get why abstinence is really important for me. I get why abstinence is important for most people who are problem drinkers. And it's because of what you said. To me, abstinence is so important. It's because it's the only way that the mechanism of craving ever gets shut off. Meaning, if I don't get complete space from alcohol, then I'm in that craving game again and again. But I think one of the problems with an abstinence only viewpoint towards alcohol is that there's no room for

progress in that, right? Meaning the scoring is 100% or zero, right? You're either 100% like not alcohol free or you're zero. And I've seen that can be very discouraging and detrimental to people. So how do you think about that in terms of like, yeah, abstinence is where we want to get, but how do I measure progress along the way if I'm not able to get to full abstinence right out of the gate? Okay. Hey, I'm really glad you brought that up, Eric, because the way most people land in sobriety, and I'm no different here. And thank goodness I'm on a current nine plus year away from my last drink. Hope that never changes. But the way most of us get here is by stacking days, right?

It's not a one and done thing. In fact, I've interviewed over 400 people on the Recovery Elevator podcast. Very few of them were one and done. Like, you know, I'm done with this. It rarely happens. And it looks more of what is called stacking days. You get three days here, you get a week there. And even years, you look back at the years, they're like, hey, in 2022, I went 33% alcohol free. In 2023, I'm 75% alcohol free. I think

we're going for abstinence, but really, I think that's how we get there in more accurate terms. I think that's how most of us land in sobriety. That makes a lot of sense. And certainly my experience, and I think that given that I was either completely abstinent or not, it was 100% or zero in the scoring system I was given and introduced to, it led to when I wasn't 100%, just giving up completely. I mean, and so it was just profoundly discouraging, right? And so I think what you're saying is I wish I'd had more people tell me, and I wish I understood more that like, you're going to have to make multiple runs at this, right? You're going to come in and you're

going to learn some things and you're going to do better. And then you're going to come up against something you can't, you know, handle. And then you're going to come back again. And over time, you'll eventually get there. That wasn't the way it was presented to me. So I ended up in a really dark period where I thought I've done everything they told me to do, right? I was a heroin addict at the time, right? And I've gone to treatment, you know, I did 30 meetings in 30 days, I got a sponsor, I did all those things, and it didn't work. And so you know what, I can't do this. I'm not the kind of person that will ever get this. And I wish it had been presented to me more the way you're presenting it because that was a really dangerous period when I thought, I can't get this. I'm not the kind of person that will ever get sober.

That was a dangerous and dark period. There was a movement in the late 1800s called the temperance movement. And I think that's one of the reasons why it's not around today, because it was basically an internal and external declaration, mostly with the church of I'm going to abstain from alcohol. However, there was no work. There was no inner work. There was no recovery work. There was no spiritual growth. There was no program. Then I think when AA came along, they filled that void. And you're right. That's black and white. I drank. Oops, I can't get this. And I went through a period of that too, Eric, where I had so many day ones and I was going to the

meetings or whatnot. And I'm such a stubborn dude. I started my own sobriety tracker app. The reason why, Eric, there was only like one or two on iTunes at that time. And the one that I had started off, you got a day after 24 hours. And I had so many times where I didn't even have a day. I actually developed an app. It's still on the app store. It's the recovery elevator sobriety tracker that you start on day one. Like if you're on day one, but I just couldn't even make it. It was like 0.01, you know, point when I woke up, it was 0.05, you know, you get an hour at 0.05. And I was like, I cannot get this, but I'm going to start my own app because I want to wake up and see the number 1.0. Eventually, here I am today.

I had to go through all of that stuff, all those failed moderation techniques. And again, I think sobriety is the path of least resistance. It gets a little brutal to kind of let the brain, the mind, the body reset the dopamine systems. But I feel today is also the wild west of recovery is and there's so many more options today to quit drinking your drug of choice or whatever than there were five years ago, 10 years ago and definitely 20 or 30 years ago. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about that. You've got a line in your book and I've heard you say it on your podcast multiple times. Right. There are many pathways leading to the same place. So meaning, I think what you mean is there's not one way to get sober.

There's lots of different ways to get sober. Share a little bit more about that. Yeah. With Recovery Elevator, we believe there's no right or wrong way to quit drinking. In fact, I think it's dangerous when we do put like, this is what sobriety looks like. Here's step one, two, three. I know there's a 12 steps of AA. That's a beautiful guide that I think every human being on the earth could follow and get benefit, but all pathways lead to home and stick with me here for a second.

I do feel the addiction actually serves a purpose in biology. This is called endowment theory that nothing happens on planet earth or in this universe without some sort of beneficial purpose. If drinking is about the symptom, it's but the messenger. It's but the invitation to step into a more authentic way of living. And I think the addiction where I'm at right now, it has forced me to land inside of me. We are in a fractured world, a disconnected world, rates of addiction, sickness, illness, pain, all that stuff, autoimmune disorders, inflammation, they're all on the rise. But I think what an addiction is trying to do, it's very painful at first, but it's trying to reconnect the soul with the conscious,

the unconscious, all parts of your body and helping you land at your core. So again, all pathways lead to home. There's no right or wrong way to quit drinking. And I don't advocate, go out and make your own program, right? I think AA is a great place to start. I think Cafe Ari is a great place to start. I think surrounding yourself with people who've already done this, listening to podcasts like yours, Eric, is a great way to start. But again, in 2023, when we're recording this and 24 and beyond, there are some really neat ways to ditch the booze. And I think the invention of our time, Eric, is going to be the internet. That's it. And how we're able to connect, and this isn't my quote, but the opposite of addiction is connection. The ways that

we can connect in 2023, 2024 looks so much different. I'm recording this, I'm in Costa Rica right now. And I can see you like you're in the next room. And we're two human beings have an authentic conversation about how we ditched what was holding us back. Yeah. I mean, when I got sober the first time, it was 1994 in Columbus, Ohio. And so there was nothing else except AA. And I mean that quite literally. Like there wasn't even like the smatterings of like smart recovery or, you know, there was one game in town. And thank God it worked for me. But like you said, today there are so many different options.

There is no one way to do it. But I've heard other people express a concern that the fact that there's so many different ways to do it. But I've heard other people express a concern that the fact that there's so many different ways to do it, there's all these different apps and there's all these different things that people can spend a lot of time sort of monkeying around with a lot of different things before they find something that really works for them. And I don't really know what I think about that argument, but I'm curious what you think. That's definitely valid. I track with that. I think things can be discarded a little fast. I cringe when I hear people like, oh, I read a pamphlet about AA. It's just not for me.

They never went to one or they went to one meeting. It's just not for me. But I think when you're ready, Eric, when you were ready to stop using, when I was ready to stop drinking, when you're ready, it doesn't matter what program you show up at. And when you're ready to focus on the similarities instead of the difference, it doesn't matter if it's AA, smart recovery, cafe, RE, it doesn't matter at all. And I think that's all part of the journey too of exploring different programs. That's not for me today. It might be for me later on down the road. But I realized I had these qualms about AA. Well, we're just going to talk about alcohol for an hour?

That sounds quite triggering to me. And that was a good argument internally. But I just wasn't really ready to quit drinking at that time. You hit on something there that I think is really important, which is focusing on the similarities, not the differences, right? And I think this actually applies to any group we go into, any type of connection we're seeking. It's a useful idea. But in regards to alcohol or recovery, say why this is so important and what happens if we're not orienting in that way? Okay. In 2012, I had been sober, alcohol-free for about two and a half years. And I went to my first AA meeting with a friend who was struggling with alcohol. I took this person to an AA meeting to support that person. And this is after I had owned a bar in Spain, lost the bar in Spain, was getting blacked

out, blacking out every night of the week for a couple of years straight. And I was at that AA meeting and I was focusing on the differences, not the similarities. And I heard people share and I said, wait a second, I don't have multiple DUIs. I didn't have any at that time. I've never been to prison. I've never been to jail. I don't have a bankruptcy, all these things. And I was drunk like two nights later and it was a train wreck. I had like 30 drinks that night. And when the gas like two nights later and it was a train wreck. I had like 30 drinks that night. And when the gas station was closed, I could no longer pick up alcohol. I was Googling if I could drink rubbing alcohol or hydrogen peroxide. And I had a bottle of each

on either side of my computer. So shit got real fast. And, uh, but it was a big eye opener for me. I recognized in that meeting, looking back, that there was still the obsession to drink. And I was focusing on the differences of why I was not like them, why I was better, why I was different, and why I could find a way to go out and drink again. I did. It didn't work. I got back at it. And I don't think that was an error.

It had to happen. I learned a lot from it, Eric. I really did. Yeah. I think that when we walk into any group, I was saying, I think some of this comes up, but I think in recovery in particular, we want to not belong there, right? That would be our preference. Our preference would be, as we talked about earlier, the great desire of every addict or alcoholic is that you're not an

addict or alcoholic, right? Because then you can continue to do what you do. So we're pretty motivated to disqualify ourselves. We're pretty motivated to look for all the ways I'm not like you people. And I know people who look at people and go, you know, people walk into a meeting and go like, I was not nearly as bad as those people. Or other people will say, I'm way worse than what those people were. I mean, we're just looking for a way to give ourselves an excuse to walk out the door. And so listening for similarity is really helpful. And I don't know if you said this in your book, but I think you did, or maybe you said it on a podcast. Even further, if we don't focus on the stories, the externals of what the stuff, but the internals

of how it feels. And, you know, I've shared with you and I've shared with listeners before, you know, there was a time I got sober twice. Once was a very low bottom heroin addiction, a homeless heroin addict, hepatitis C, going to jail for a long time. And then I stayed sober. And then I went back out and I just pretty much drank and smoked pot. And my bottom the second time was much higher. If we want to use that terminology, meaning I had the best job I'd ever had. I was driving the nicest car I'd ever had. I was living in a great neighborhood. I mean, in all those ways, luckily for me, what I was able to focus on was inside. I felt just as out of control as I did

the first time, right? And so oftentimes if we can shake the, if we can get away, and I say all that to say, when we're looking at externals, it's easy to disqualify ourselves. But most people who are an addict, if you walk into a room of AA or another support group and you listen to people describe what it felt like to be an alcoholic or addict, I think that that's when the similarities really come forth. Which is just that despair and that shame and that confusion of why can't I stop this? Okay. I track with you, Eric. I think one of the most dangerous parts about alcohol, drugs, the stigma and the ego, the disease or whatever you want to call it, tells us that we're the only person in the world

that's struggling with that, which is not true at all. Millions and millions of Americans, millions across the world. When we find our tribe or find other like-minded individuals that have the same thing in common. And for us, we've punched an intense ticket of pain to enter the rooms of sobriety or to enter the rooms of authenticity and growth and wholeness through recovery from an addiction or substances. You're going to go through a lot of pain. You know, rock bottom, homeless on the street, hepatitis C, all that stuff,

regardless. And sometimes higher bottom, lower bottom, they're all emotionally relatively the same. They're all internally equally as painful. But I also have found on the flip side, on the other side of that, it is an incredible glue. I've been part of many clubs, guilds, sports teams, committees, you name it, But not once have I found the camaraderie that exists in sobriety. You know, we do events, we do retreats, we do sober travel trips. And the first couple of ones, I thought we were getting lucky. I was like, man, that's going to be hard to duplicate. But it's the glue of sobriety. It's the glue, which actually it's the pain. You know, day one, when we start talking,

it's like we've known somebody for seven days or two weeks. We go right past a small talk and get into it, which I absolutely love. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal?

The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Bryan Cranston is with us tonight. How are you, too?

Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really, No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening?

Really, No Really. Yeah, Really. No Really. Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really, No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I teach a couple of different programs, and an aspect of it is about building community. And I quote some studies around how long it takes to build friendships, right?

And so if you look at the scientific research about how long it takes to build a friendship, it takes a lot of hours, right? I've seen some estimates like 100 hours, which is why people tend to become close to people they work with because they spend all that time with them. What I think about these studies, though, is that they did not interview groups of alcoholics or addicts or support groups for depression or support groups for cancer or pick your topic because friendships form so much more quickly when you're immediately talking about things that matter deeply, right? It takes 100

hours to build a friendship if you're spending 30 of those hours talking about things that matter deeply, right? It takes 100 hours to build a friendship if you're spending 30 of those hours talking about the weather and sports, right? When you're immediately in the sort of intimacy that any of these different types of groups, and hopefully, you know, our spiritual habits programs go that deep that quickly. When you do that, the time to build friendships and lifelong connections is far faster and far easier, which is what you're describing, right? Like right away, you have these connections with people that are really strong and deep and it is like a glue. Eric, you know, the people on this sobriety journey, again, there's a stigma, but I think we have it wrong. I think the stigma puts us at the back of the societal queue, but I think it's opposite.

I think the stigma puts us at the back of the societal queue, but I think it's opposite. We can come together in a room and put aside our differences, talk respectfully, lead with love, and connect fast. In fact, it's almost a superpower of mine. When I travel, Eric, I've been to AA meetings in like over a dozen countries right around there. And I do it because I find the connection. And in a meeting, I find myself at a barbecue at somebody else's house later or dinner plans or whatnot. And it's this fast track right past the BS small talk into authentic conversation, which all of us at the soul level, we're seeking, we're yearning for this.

Let's pivot this direction a little bit because you're starting to sort of talk about recovery as a plus to life. Like, it's not just like, oh, I get to quit drinking. That's why I go. But that I actually get further ahead in life. And you talk a lot about this idea where you say, as I mentioned earlier in this book, alcohol is a spirit which can give us profound gifts if we're able to recognize, right? You sort of talk about this like seeing our recovery and our addiction as ultimately a gift. Talk more about that because that's what we're sort of talking about here is that as part of this, you get an enhanced community. What are the other benefits that come from a life in recovery? Okay, Eric, sobriety, recovery, it's the greatest gift I could have

ever received, but not everybody gets there in sobriety. My take is there's a lot of victims in sobriety. There's a lot of victims in this world. There's a lot of victims in AA actually, but back to the parable, the one you feed podcast, as I said, if I'm authentic to how I answered that question, if I choose to see wholeness in everything and really lean into the universe, that everything is happening for me, not against me. It helped me depart from the victim mentality. So if I'm true to that, if I honor that, and I know that nothing malfunctioned in the past with the addiction, it all took me to this path right here. Again, all pathways lead to home, mine, yours, and others on

this sobriety journey. It's more of a painful way into this type of work, but also you catapult to the other side. So I think there are so many benefits to sobriety that others who don't embark on this, we have no choice but to answer questions such as who I am. What's the point of life? What's important to me? What am I going to do in this human life the rest of the time I have here? There's many normal drinkers out there, whatnot. You know, they're not forced to ask these internal deep questions. They're not forced to find a different way of living.

They're not forced to find a way to align the way they're living more in line of how we are as human beings. So I want to be in the moment, but I'm excited, shall I say, of where this recovery journey goes in the future. I think a couple of years into sobriety, I could barely spell spirituality. And now it's like this beautiful aperture of really trusting the universe. Bob Marley's got a song, Every Little Thing's Gonna Be All Right, Three Little Birds. And up into this moment for me, Eric, and maybe you can say the same about yourself, every little thing is going to be okay. And it has been up until this moment.

So it's really leaning into that. And the sobriety has taught me, again, back to the parable, it's like where you put your energy is what you're going to get back. And I'm choosing to see wholeness, authenticity, love in everything that I see. And there's days it's a struggle. I get it. I drive on the same roads that you guys do and that stuff. This is a superpower. This is an asset. It is not a liability.

of the friendships that get formed, of the deep work that, like you said, we're forced to kind of do. You know, I have been involved in some form of healing and or recovery and working on who I am because I've had to since I was 24 years old. That's almost 30 years now. There were a couple of years of a big detour in there. But I never would have done the type of things that I did as young as I did them with the intensity that I did them. And I mean, as far as my own spiritual path and my own personal growth path, I wouldn't have done those things if I hadn't been forced into doing it. And so there are many, many benefits and gifts of recovery. And I think there's another element to this too that I think about a lot, which is, you

know, a lot of people in recovery will say that they eventually see it as a benefit or a gift. Or many people who have gone through any sort of very difficult experience, many of them will turn around and reflect upon it as a very positive thing. And the key element to me seems to be that they found some way that help someone else, to me, that transforms the thing. That's the alchemy that gets it to be where we're able to sort of go like, oh, that was a gift. Yeah. If you didn't say the word alchemy, I was going to say just that. I saw a Morgan Freeman movie a couple of months ago and he was asked, what's the point of life? And without hesitation, he responded to pass on what we've learned to others. And Eric, we're doing that right now.

I crash and burn so hard. I'm not the only one. There's millions of people who have as well. Same with you. And here we are. We've had limited time together and we're getting after it. We are sharing our experiences of our stories of how we found healing and how we continue to deepen on that path and also how we can help others.

The only reason why Recovery Elevator has been successful, I feel, is the motives behind it when I started were to create accountability for myself. That's a selfish motive. But number two, to help if other people listened along the way and gained traction out of it, then let's do it. There was no money. There was no sponsorships. The first hundred episodes, it was almost like an easier day. But to pass that along to another human being of our experiences, again, I think it's how we're wired biologically. Chemicals such as oxytocin, serotonin, all those feel-good chemicals are released when we do so. And we do this with other species too. We help out animals who need help. We raise dogs, right? We have animals in our households and helping others fills our soul up. And it was almost like rocket science in 1935 when Bill W

figured it out. He said, you know what? Craziest can be when I go to Manhattan hospitals and share my story with alcohol, I stay sober. Not everybody I speak to stays sober, but by golly darn it, I'm staying sober. It was revolutionary at the time. But now we know that sharing and opening up and teaching, and that's what you are, Eric. You're a teacher and you're teaching right now. Doing that to listeners, it helps us as well. And hopefully it helps the listener. Yeah.

Yeah. I agree with you. I think that that founding of AA, and again, I want to be clear, like neither you nor I is saying AA is the only way to go by any stretch of the imagination. It happens to be the program that saved my life twice. I also see the challenges with it, and I'm glad there's all sorts of alternatives, but I reference it a lot because it was what worked for me. But that moment that Bill found out, and he found it out in Ohio, which is where I'm at, right? You know, just up the road from here. You know, he found that when he talked to another alcoholic, he stayed sober.

And I think that what's so beautiful about that is the actually the reciprocity there, because I know people like this and will come into recovery or any sort of support movement, and they won't want to be a burden to the other people. Oh, I don't want to call him. I would just be a burden. Or I don't want to tell them about my problems because I would be a burden, right? And the beauty of what Bill and Dr. Bob found with each other was that they helped each other equally. It wasn't like the person who has a year sober and the person who has a day sober, that there's

some power imbalance there. There isn't. There's a reciprocity in the coming together. And that's been my experience in any sort of good support movement. You know, there's a lot in the mental health community today around peer support, and it works for the exact same reason. There's a true reciprocity between people in that both are helped in that relationship. And I think it's one of the most beautiful things in the world is that thing where when we genuinely connect with people, both people benefit from that connection. Yeah. And addiction, I feel on a purpose of it is the humbling process. You mentioned two people coming together as equals. It's the ego, right? You have

to come face to face with the ego and make a decision, life or death, and let my ego take me off the cliff or whatnot. So this reciprocity of two people coming together, which is very in line for roughly 10,000 human generations of how we evolve. We had to help each other pass on our stories of how to live. You know, how we're living today is completely bass-ackwards of how we used to live and made it this far. And by not asking for help, and look, I'm the same too. I don't want to be a burden or whatnot. But by not asking for help, you're depriving another person to feel good, for them to be in line with what a human being is, to help them. Once I really embodied that, it became a lot easier for me to ask for help.

And we've heard it in the rooms or whatnot is the most important person in the room is the newcomer. That's the same in Cafe Ari. That's our private online community as well. And, you know, AA, that's how I started. I still go, but, you know, it's not a perfect program either. I want to be clear on that as well. Yeah. There's so many programs these days that are out there. And I think a lot of them share in common something that you say in the book, which I believe also, you know, anytime I'm on a podcast and anybody's like, well, they'll ask me to make some definitive statement about alcoholism or addiction. I don't really want to make any definitive statement because everybody's different. And there's so many gray areas that you talk about. But the

one statement that I will make and you make it also and you say you can't do this alone. There are several gray areas in recovery, but this isn't one of them. This one is black and white. What that means, the not doing it alone can take lots of different forms. But I do believe that to be true for the vast, vast majority of people who have a real problem is that doing it by yourself won't work. We do hear stories of people who do I'm not saying that never happens, but it's so rare Yeah, and I think it was a long term. It's even more rare people can do it on their own couple months What not? Yeah, I did it on my own for two and a half years and went to an AA meeting and was drunk two days late I did yeah I went and saw my sponsor lead when I was 30 days sober and went out afterwards and bought heroin I was like man that is a strong message you got dude So similar to you sober two years walking to an AA meeting and it all goes up in smoke.

Focus on the differences. Yeah. I drank my roommate's bottle of champagne that he saved from his wedding. Yikes. In the late 1700s, there was a Seneca man named Handsome Lake. This is an Indian tribe who recognized he brought the tribe people together that struggle with alcohol and he almost built. He didn't have 12 steps. Right. But it was a strikingly similar program is a to bring people around a campfire, which we've been doing for hundreds of thousands of years of human beings come together to discuss our differences, our resolve. And we are pack animals. Recently, it's like this wave of isolation, individualism. But wow, we need other human beings. We do. Share a little bit more about your story here. So we've referenced it a couple of times. Obviously, you said you owned a bar in Spain. We can all assume what happens if you match an alcoholic and owning a bar.

It's not a good thing. We can picture all that. You stay sober a couple of years. You go to an AA meeting. You drink again. Walk us through there. How did you find your way back to sobriety? And what was it like in the early days for you?

All right. So in 2010, this is five years after I owned the bar, I said, hey, something's going on here. So I went two and a half years without alcohol. I was only going to go for a month. But after just a couple of weeks, the color in my face changed. The bloating went away. I was like, oh, I might be onto something here, but I still didn't want to believe it was alcohol.

Two and a half years later, drank. We covered that. I said, no problem. I'll get back on it. Had two and a half years before, I'll do it again. Except that wasn't the case. That two and a half years went to seven months. Then I remember I got like three months and three weeks. And then it was like a year and a half, two years of just day ones over and over and over. 2014 got a little grim at a failed suicide attempt there. I got a DUI while driving to work and it was just a hopelessness. And my heart goes out to everybody or anybody who's listening out there. That's in that space of an addiction where there's just the hope seems to be lost. Keep going. Myself was there. Eric was there. We got your back. We're right there. We're right here with you. We are. And later that year in 2014, Eric, luckily I found myself two months away from alcohol. I was going

to an AA meeting and I was hiding behind pine trees. This is stigma, right? I didn't want people driving by knowing I was going to AA. I heard this voice in my brain that said, we don't have to go to that meeting. I got this. And I just stopped there because I knew every time in the past when I said I got this, not only that I didn't get this, I ended up in a way worse spot, just completely backfired. So something was there with me. I left the pine tree. I went into the AA meeting. I came out and I had the idea of a podcast. At that time, there's only a couple of sobriety podcasts. I said, shit, not only do I have to go back into AA, I have to do something more. And you've heard the quote or a line like you have to put at least as much energy into your recovery as you did for

your drinking. And obviously like a little bit more to counteract that. And I put a lot of energy into my drinking. I was a bar owner. I was used to DJ clubs and weddings and all that stuff. So I just went full bore into it. And I said, all right, I'm going to start a podcast called recovery elevator. February 15th, 2015 was the first episode to create accountability. And I just in MP3 format, launch it out in the world, burn the ships. Look, man, name's Paul Churchill, crashed and burned big time with alcohol. But an amazing thing happened, Eric. I had got honest and authentic with myself. And that process was already underway in 2014. And when I did it in MP3 format, I gave others the permission to do the same. And I received one email like three weeks after I launched the podcast.

I was too scared to read it, actually. More emails came, people started listening. And here we are, nine and a half years later, 460 something weekly podcast, sober travel, over 10 million downloads, yada, yada, all this stuff. I mean, what an incredible journey. I don't think everybody has to get sober that way. I don't recommend it. You know, looking back, that was actually quite risky with about six months of sobriety, launching a sober podcast. I don't recommend that, but, but for me, that's how my universe bent, you know, turned, melded in a way that I was able to remain alcohol-free. And thank goodness that current run is still alive today.

And so while you were doing that, you were also attending AA. Sounds like you've attended a reasonable amount of AA. Yeah, okay. I did the full 90 and 90, you know, sponsor steps. Just put the ego aside. It's like, look, I don't know better than these people. I am not better. I have no effing clue what's good for me or how to do this.

And I just said, yes, say yes to everything and including the podcast. Right now I'm in Costa Rica and I go to one AA meeting a week, about 30 minutes away from me. It's awesome. And with that, I've been to seven or eight meetings and I've already got a wonderful community of authentic people who know exactly who I am, right? Superpower, right? Leveraged it. this is an asset. Back home, I spend most of my time here in Montana. I probably go to one to two AA meetings a month, but sometimes I'll go three or four months without going to a meeting. However, I'm very plugged in to our community group cafe RE. Like I run it, you know, I'm in a different position there, but I attended our chat right

before interview, Eric, I attended our, we call them chats, our version of meetings. I do probably two to three a week and I make sure I host at least one. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who the way to the floor. We got the answer.

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My recovery journey was a lot of AA early on, and then as time went on, I sort of found other aspects to get, you know, sort of what I was getting from AA. I was starting to drift away from AA, which the first time I did that ended up with me drinking again. And when it started to happen again, I was like, I don't want to repeat that. And so I was kind of looking at like, well, what am I getting from AA? Like, what is it doing? And I was able to sort of reverse engineer that in different ways. You know, I'm getting community. So where else am I getting community? I'm getting a structured approach to change. Where else might I get that? I'm getting the chance to support others. I like that. I sort of tried to break it down. And I think I'm glad I did that after I had like, say, five years sober, instead of trying to do that in

the beginning and be like, oh, well, I think I'm going to know how to do all this. Let's talk about the word alcoholic for a second, because this is a controversial term. You know, it was not a controversial term in 1995, right? When I got into sobriety, it was like you just, that's how you identified. And many people now feel like as a label, it's not a very helpful label. How do you feel about the term alcoholic and how does it work for you in your life? Yeah. Great question. I've oscillated on both sides of it, Eric. I have officially broken up with the word alcoholic twice in podcast episodes. Yeah. But when I go to the program, Hey, my name is Paul and alcoholic out of respect for the program. We do need to be careful with words, right? The unconscious has already attached a label, a stigma, behaviors, whatever to a word.

So we need to be careful with that. And studies show that only 5% of alcoholics actually live under bridges, brown paper bags fit that bill. Most alcoholics are very functional. And the stats here are we're high earners. We're highly educated when we are in relationships. So with that, the word alcoholic to what an alcoholic really is actually is a compliment. Like we're higher achievers than the average person, like crazy stats there. But where I'm at right now in my journey, and I think this is the point of an addiction is, you know, we have been looking for happiness outside of ourselves so long. That was for me in a bottle, right? This internal unrest. Well, what's up tequila? Like that'll fix it pretty quick. But where I'm at right now is I'm trying to be as grounded and as rooted as possible as I can be that you can call me whatever you want to

call me, Eric, alcoholic, you know, alcohol use disorder. I've been called way worse in the past, probably will in the future. It doesn't matter. And that's part of the recovery work too, is to not focus on what everybody else is thinking about you. And norm number one, people don't think about you as much as we think that they do. So it really doesn't matter. And again, I think we're living in a world, it kind of upsets me sometimes that we want everything to be black and white. You're either this or you're that. And kind of how we started, Eric, we go down this road of online questionnaires, meetings with doctors and therapists. Oh, am I in, do I have an alcohol use disorder? It doesn't matter. Like you are what you are. Do you want to improve

in life? Is there something that's holding you back? But I've already seen a change. Like the word sober curious is now on the horizon. That's just like alcoholic light, you know, who knows, but it really doesn't matter to me. In fact, you know, we think if we come out to our friends and family as an alcoholic, then, uh, you know, the stars will fall. Our worlds are over, but let me just share this with you guys. And Eric, you might've seen the same. I know you have, I have burned the ships or said, I am an alcoholic to over a million people, probably a high hundreds of thousands by download numbers, millions. I've actually received the opposite. More love, more support, more authentic. You go do you, man. Hey, how can I help? It's

the exact opposite has happened. I imagine you too, Eric. The more authentic you are about your story and owning it and being you and being more rooted in yourself, it doesn't matter what people call you. It doesn't. And you've probably seen the opposite. People are like, yeah, Eric, you do you, man. I wish I could own my story in a fashion that you do. Yeah. I think about this question a lot. You know, I talk a lot about recovery. I talk a lot about different mental illnesses. And I think this idea of a diagnosis versus an identity are very interesting, right? I still refer to myself as an alcoholic because to me, that means a very specific thing. It just means I can't drink alcohol safely again.

But interestingly, part of what made me go to AA less was the fact that there was this constant discussion of what an alcoholic meant, right? And so there you know, there would be like, well, you know, we're still all really sick, you know, well, we're still a liar, cheating a thief. We're still this idea that like, since I once was, quote unquote, you know, define myself as an alcoholic, that I had all these character traits that I no longer had. You know, I was like, wait a minute, I don't actually think I'm particularly dysfunctional or sick. I came in the rooms really messed up, but I don't think I'm really that way anymore. And so that idea of sort of what alcoholic meant started to not work for me because I was like, well, I identify myself as so much more than an alcoholic. I actually identify myself much more with everybody in the

world than I do a very small subset of people in the world, even though in the beginning, that's where I needed to identify. And so for me, it's sort of like these labels or diagnoses or identities. I try and think about where are they useful and then when do they become limiting, you know? And for me, that's what works. But alcoholic is a shorthand for me, meaning don't be an idiot and pick up another drink, Eric, right? Like, as long as I don't forget that fact, it doesn't really matter what I call myself, right? But I don't want to forget that key fact because every time I is too big of a word for them to swallow. Like you

said, if it's a little too prohibitive for you, you call it whatever you want. You know, Laura McCowan addresses it like this. You just ask yourself, are you free? Is alcohol blocked your freedom? You can call it whatever you want. But of course, listeners, if the word alcoholic is just, there's too much of a charge there. I agree. And sometimes like I've been diagnosed things that end in syndrome or disorder or disease. And like, I don't even say that. I don't even say that internally in my brain. Like I'm not going to say, oh, I have a syndrome. Cause words have weight. They for sure do. And the unconscious will latch onto that. Yeah, they do. I mean, I think that's what's so interesting is that oftentimes in the beginning, my experience is the beginning of diagnosis, like being diagnosed as

depressed was actually initially helpful because I was like, well, what is going on with me? And then somebody is like, here's what it is. And they describe it. And then they're like, and here's the different ways you treat it, like initially really helpful. And then over time, though, I don't want to be limited by it. And so that's, I think, where it's interesting. If the identity or label helps you deal with that situation or problem better, great. But the minute that you start to define yourself and your limits of who you are by that thing, to me, that's when it's time to discard it. Because then it is no longer empowering, helping, healing, curing. It's limiting.

Another guest we found on the show, Catherine Gray, I don't know if you know her. She's out of England. She's delightful and has written about recovery, but hers is even simpler. It's just simply, would your life be better without alcohol in it? And that is such another just really great way to look at it. Like who cares what you call it, how you define yourself? Would your life be better if all the bad things that were happening related to drinking weren't happening? And you can move on that foundation. Without a doubt. And internally, there's a lot of ways to phrase it. It is. And whatever's the easiest, softest way, we've heard that before, for you to enter into that world, to explore it, go for it. Because

quitting drinking is the one domino that has the capacity to knock every other domino in your life over. It's going to affect everything. So, you know, go slow with it, but also don't go too slow with it because there's a progressive nature of alcoholism or really any addiction of sorts. And you kind of wait, wait a little too long, shall we say? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm so grateful having been an opiate addict that I did it in the nineties and not today because it is dangerous out there. So this is a big question. What is addiction or alternately what causes addiction? There's a thousand and one answers for this. None of them are right. None of them are wrong, but I'm going to try to summarize it. And I have

fun talking about this. I really do. There is a line in the realm of hungry ghosts. This is Dr. Gabor Mate's book on addiction that says most anthropologists agree that there was no record of addiction in pre-modern times. There is addiction in the Bible and there has been, but nothing like we see it today. So what the heck is going on? If it's genetic, you know, genes don't change that fast. And side note with genetics, they still have not found the addiction gene. In fact, they stopped looking for the addiction gene. They've already mapped the whole human genome. There's not a gambling gene. There's not an Amazon prime shopping gene. There's not a, there's not a, it's not a cigarette gene. There isn't. And so the genetic thing, maybe if your genetics loads the gun and the

environment pulls the trigger, I think we're a little closer to that. If we distill it to the opposite of addiction is connection, then addiction is disconnection, then I think we're onto something there. Is the way we used to live prior to three or 400 years ago, the communities were much more intact. Every task that we did meant something to the community, our self-being, our self-worth was more tied to that. So the way we're living today, Instagram, email, this super fast pace, these high salaries, I'm a big fan of capitalism in some aspects, but also we're seeing the limitations clearly. And I think addiction is a big part with that. The way we're living today, I think is completely out of balance. And I think it is the environment that is creating such, such extreme unrest. You know, I just read that the life expectancy for a white male in America has dropped for like four straight years in a row.

There's all kinds of barometers. Addiction is one of them, but mental health, like I said, inflammations, anxiety disorders, all this stuff, it's skyrocketing. So what the heck is going on? I think we have separated ourselves from nature, Eric. There's like this compulsive, obsessive compulsive disorder by everybody to consume, right? We have the climate change. We've all heard about this stuff, but can we rein it in? Like it's, it's quite interesting. But one more thing with that, the, uh, the spirits, like the technology to drink or the technology to get alcohol up to 40% alcohol, like that didn't exist about a hundred years

ago. Beer topped out at like 3.2%. didn't exist about a hundred years ago. Beer topped out at like 3.2%. This is a couple of hundred years ago. Wines were like six to 7%, not 13%. You couldn't find, you know, your micro brew at 10%. And drinking was also done more in communal settings a couple hundred years ago. So there's almost like these safeguards, these stop gaps in place to prevent alcoholism from going out of control. But again, I think it's the way we're living. We've never been more stressed. It's so competitive.

We've got parents like cheating on their kids SATs to get them into college. Like what's going on with so many of these things right now? But I don't think we labeled it all as bad. Hang with me for just a second. I do think that every human being is going to have to overcome addiction. And I think there are a wave of people that have already done it. Like this could be me and you, Eric. The Buddha said, all of humanity has to cross a river crossing of consciousness. And it wasn't metaphorical. He spoke about it many times. So today I think we've got some very

potent drugs. We've got alcohol, we have sugar, we have TV and we have screens, right? Cell phones. And I think the cell phone technology, I think that technology addiction is going to be the greatest of our time that everybody is going to have to overcome. And this is finding wholeness externally, looking for wholeness externally, and we're going to be forced to find it internally. And I think there's a wave of us that have already started. And I don't want to say, Eric, checkbox. Yep. I'm there. They're not, that's not it at all. But I think there's going to be a wave of humanity that have to really tackle this inner unrest at the individual level. I don't think that the government is going to have the answer to addiction or mental health. Like I think this is going to be something that individual or small communities are going to have

to solve. And I think we'll see us moving back into smaller communities, I don't want to say off the grid, but where those societal structures are more intact. But I think it's an incredibly fascinating topic. I do. Yeah, I agree. Also, I want to probe a little deeper there because, and you write about this in your book a little bit, about at first glance what can seem to be contradictory things, which is this need, as you said, to sort of go inwards and establish our relationship with ourselves on an internal level, right? And also remain connected to the people around us. And I think that's what you're saying, right? the people around us. And I think that's what you're saying, right? Is that you need to do both those things sort of simultaneously? Because it seems to me that like, you know, certain Eastern traditions would focus on at least the way we've westernized them going inside,

you know, the answers within you, you know, meditate, be quiet, go inwards, right? That's one extreme. The other extreme is you spend all your life outward. And it seems like, and you write about this in your book, sort of being able to do both, right? Being able to go inwards and remain connected to others. I think the word we're going here is balance. There's the yin and the yang, right? We almost have to know both extremes, the good wolf, the bad wolf or whatnot, but it's finding that healthy balance because you're right.

One or the other is not going to work. I don't think I could just go sit in a cave and meditate, at least for myself right now and find that inner peace. It just wouldn't work. I need that human connection. I have a wonderful wife and I need that connection. But on the flip side, if it's all external and you neglect internally that inner child's like, yo, what about me? So I think this river crossing of consciousness that the Buddha speaks about could be just that it could be balanced. It could be harmony. And there's another theory with that. I know I'll lose some people here that we are one of the last species out there to enlighten or to really, to reach full homeostasis with nature. You know, the human beings have been a little out of balance in the

last couple of hundred years. We've had a species that have been with extinction and climate change, yada, yada, yada, but it still fits in the big picture of it all, right? So I think thousands of years looking back, like, whoa, humanity had to go through that really rough time, almost like that caterpillar who looks like they're going through extreme dysfunction before emerging as a butterfly. I really hope that's what's going down here. As we finalize and wrap up here, give me one last piece of advice for somebody who is either early in their recovery journey or even determining whether they should get on the recovery journey. Okay. Burn the ships, burn the ships. And it's got to be done internally. You can look in the

mirror yourself and be like, Hey, is this, is this really where we're going? You got to get honest with yourself. Then burn the ships externally, find a close friend. It doesn't have to be a close friend, but just voicing it, getting it inside to outside in front of a live human being is going to do wonders for you. And that could be just going to a meeting, a chat. There's so many online recovery platforms, But burning the ships is quite impactful because it's honesty. You have to get honest with yourself and get honest with another person. It's not easy. I get it. That's my advice, Eric. So not everybody's going to be familiar with that phrase, burn the ships. So what's that mean? I guess you're right. In 1519, Hernan Cortes sailed from Cuba and landed on the coast of

Veracruz in Mexico to conquer the Aztec Empire, which for the previous 500 years, many have tried to conquer the Aztecs. The first thing he did, and this is true, when he got on the coast of Mexico, he said, burn the ships. He burned, I think it was like 30 or 40 ships, millions and millions of dollars in today's money. The only way they were going to go back to Spain is if they were victorious. And that's what happened. They won. Long story. But with burning the ships, we have conversations with people that we can't unhave those conversations. And like I said earlier,

when you reach out for help, you give another person the opportunity to be of service, to be of help, which helps them. Well, that is a beautiful place for us to wrap up. Thank you so much, Paul, for coming on. Thanks for sharing your wisdom. We'll have links in the show notes to your up. Thank you so much, Paul, for coming on. Thanks for sharing your wisdom.

We'll have links in the show notes to your podcast, to your recovery community. And it was a real pleasure. Eric, it was a blast. Nice chat with you. Thank you very much for having me. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a monthly donation to support the One You Feed podcast. When you join our membership community with this monthly pledge, you get lots of exclusive members-only benefits. It's our way of saying thank you for your support. Now, we are so grateful for the members of our community. We wouldn't be able

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