The One You Feed - How to Respond to Abuse of Power: Practical Advice for Survivors Pt. 2 with Ginny Gay & Brandi Lust

Episode Date: June 16, 2023

If you have ever been in a situation where another was willing to harm you for their own benefit, then abuse has happened and that person has become an abuser. In this episode, we talk about the process leading up to this abuse, helping listeners to identify warning signs. We also offer practical advice that empowers survivors to take back control and find healing after abuse has occurred. In this second of a two-part conversation on abuse of power, join us to learn how to establish healthy boundaries, find supportive communities that enable growth, and reclaim your power. Listen to part 1 here.  In this episode, Ginny and Brandi help listeners to:  Gain awareness of the impact that abuse of power can have on personal and societal well-being Examine the ways language is used to dismantle trust and identify techniques to counteract this  Grasp the importance of setting boundaries to counter abusive behavior and promote healthier relationships Identify how surrounding yourself with supportive communities enables healing and positive growth Learn to reclaim your authenticity by overcoming the effects of abuse and cultivating self-empowerment To learn more, click here!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I've got a very special episode to share with you today, and it's part of a series we're releasing called Something to Normalize. One of the reasons I've always loved The Wolf Parable is because it normalizes being human and having difficult emotions. These podcast episodes feature my partner Ginny talking with her friend and previous guest of the show, Brandi Lust. In these unguarded conversations, they'll be sharing their lives and perspectives as women alongside insights from experts, researchers, and writers on topics that are hard to talk about. We tend to keep these things to ourselves though, and when we do, it can breed a sense of being the only one, feelings of shame, or evidence we're somehow doing life wrong. Brandi and Ginny hope that by giving voice to experiences, feelings, and thoughts we often keep to ourselves, we can create a community with less shame and a deeper

sense of belonging. I am so happy to share their voices with you. I think you'll find these episodes a wonderfully nourishing and supportive addition to the regularly scheduled One You Feed podcast episodes you are used to hearing here. And now, I'm proud to present to you something to normalize. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really No Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you? We have the answer.

Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. The Really No Really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome back. Welcome, everybody. Hey, Brandi. Hi, Jenny. Welcome, everyone. Welcome to Something to Normalize. Welcome to Something to Normalize, right? And so this today is part two of a two-part series. If you have not listened to part one, pause here, head back to the previous episode and take a listen because these two episodes definitely go in combination with one another. But today we are going to continue the conversation around understanding how abuse of power happens and learning to trust and care for ourselves in the wake of being a victim of this abuse,

right? So what we're normalizing is talking about the process of grooming and how systems protect abusers so that we can be more informed about prevention and also care for ourselves when it happens. So I think it's an important thing to talk about. But before we go any further, just a trigger warning, right? So if this is a topic that you have some history with in a way that feels unsafe or vulnerable and not territory you want to tread back through at the moment, maybe skip this episode, right? Maybe come back next time with us. All right, Brandy, let's just dive in, shall we?

Sounds great. Okay, so maybe first, let's just reorient to who we are. So just to remind listeners, so I'm Jenny Gay, and I'm a certified mindfulness and meditation teacher who helps people become more aware of and work skillfully with their thoughts, their emotions, their experiences, so they feel less stress and struggle and more freedom, joy, and ease. And I am Brandi Last, and I'm a speaker and facilitator who works with organizations to create safe spaces where folks can share their truth and organizations can be well. Wonderful. All right. So Brandy, let's just start with what is abuse of power? I'm going to use a definition that I read in the foreword of a

book that I'll be relying pretty heavily on in this conversation. In my situation, I did a lot of research on grooming and predatory behaviors and how these things happen with individuals and organizations. And the most helpful resource that I found was by Wade Mullen. And it's a book called Something's Not Right. And so this definition is from the foreword of that book, and it is from Diane Lamberg, who is a psychologist. And she says, when someone treats you as an object, they are willing to harm for their own benefit. Abuse has occurred, and that person has become an abuser. So any time that someone is willing to use another person in a way that creates harm. That's when abuse has happened. Can we pause for a second? I just want to like sit in that definition.

Read what you read at the beginning there one more time for me. Absolutely. When someone treats you as an object, they are willing to harm for their own benefit. Abuse has occurred and that person has become an abuser. That's a great definition, right? Like that just calls to my mind scenarios that I might not have even considered or labeled as such before. Yeah. But yeah, that tracks.

That tracks. Yeah. That's helpful. I should say too, in most situation where abuse happens, there is some sort of power differential. And that power differential might be because of the role that someone holds in a community. It might be because of their social identity as a person who is of a specific gender. And that power is what allows the abuse to be effective. And I think that mitigates the self-blame that comes sometimes

with these situations because it's never our fault when this happens. There's something that was already established that creates the ground upon which abuse grows. And we're going to talk a lot more about that ground because we'll be talking about how this happens in interpersonal interactions, but then also how organizations and communities create the space for this to be more likely. Let's dive into that. You want to? So like, where would you want to start? Do you want to start on the personal level or the organizational level? Well, I want to start with the personal level. And I also want to share a little bit more about how this abuse begins, especially on that interpersonal level. Although it's also true at the organizational stage in many cases, but almost always abuse begins with language. And the person being abused gets this feeling, something's not right. And the response to that feeling is, no, it's not that something's not right. It's that you're not right. And that dismantling of

self-trust is how abuse begins. So understanding this and understanding that language is this powerful tool, we can begin to enhance our own ability to fight back through having this language that describes how abuse happens. So this is a very empowering way to regain a sense of control in these situations where abuse has happened. And then furthermore, language is the thing that we use to speak our truth and create change in the communities that we're experiencing this. Yeah, yeah. I love the precision with which you talk about how this starts, because I think to become aware of and intervene earlier, if possible, in the process is potentially helpful. So in your experience, is there already a power differential that exists when that planting the seed of distrust in oneself starts? Because,

I mean, if that's the case, what then is happening is even more power is being garnered by the abuser because of the way they're removing your own sense of authority and trust in your own voice. Absolutely. I think that very oftentimes there is already a power differential. think that very oftentimes there is already a power differential. And so this undermining is more effective because of the power differential that already exists. And then it's this continuous process of dismantling our ability to trust ourselves that allows it to continue further than we would want it to. I'm reflecting back upon the last episode where you had shared a situation that you had at work and you felt in the beginning like there was already a power differential and you were trapped in a situation with another person that didn't completely feel safe and then how they used

that situation that was already in existence to then begin to plant information that crossed your boundaries and actions that crossed your boundaries and actions that crossed your boundaries. You know, I'm not sure I want to go into a huge tangent here, but I think it's important to kind of explore this idea of power, especially in this scenario. Because I think, you know, when I say the word power and standing in your power or those who have power, I mean, that word power might conjure up, at least for me, traditionally, it conjures up a bit of a, how do I want to say?

There's a resistance. Yeah, like a resistance and an authoritarian stance to it. Power feels very like, not necessarily violent, that's the wrong word, but there's a confrontation aspect. There's a force in that. And so I'm interested in thinking about what do I mean by power and what does it mean for me to be powerful? And so I think about, in fact, Elizabeth Lesser talks about this a lot and well in her book, Cassandra Speaks,

and she talks about what power can also mean. And I think for me, power can mean knowing my own voice, trusting my own voice, and speaking my own voice, like an acting out of that deeper knowing that I have and not giving that away to someone else, right? Yeah. I think that can be a form of real power for me. Yeah. So I think we're talking about the dichotomy of power. And first, I want to say that many, many people have this response when they hear the word power, especially women, where they associate power with something quite negative. And I think what's important in this conversation is that when we're talking about abusive power, what we're talking about is power over. We're using the power that we have to try to influence another person to get something that we want and that something is harmful to them. And so that is a very specific type of power.

But another type of power, yeah, a misuse of power. That's a really great way to frame that. And then the other type of power that we're going to be talking about today is the power that we have within ourselves that comes from a sense of integrity and wholeness, that knowing where we realize that a situation is unsupportive and it's not good for us. And we can fully feel that experience and then use that experience to create real change, change in our own lives and change in our communities. That's really good. That's so interesting. Okay, so sorry for the tangent. But no, I don't think it's a tangent. I think this topic of power, I'm fascinated with it because I have long before this abuse happened, the question that I had been asking myself is, why am I afraid of my own power?

And it was because I had had so many people who used power over to try to get something from me that ultimately resulted in harm to myself. And when that's happened over and over, the fear is that when you step into your own power, you'll do the same thing. And one thing that this situation did for me is it clarified who I am as a person in a way that I'm no longer afraid of that. And I think that being able to uphold truth in situations that are incredibly difficult, where everyone around us is trying to get us to question ourselves, that process is like a homing in on our own internal sense of what's right. And for me, that's the gift that I've been given from this experience.

Oh, wow. Okay. So what else would you like to sort of set up for us or share on a personal level? So I'd like to talk a little bit about how abuse happens and these interactions that we have. And one of the things that's, I think, an important concept when we're talking about abuse of power is something that the sociologist Irving Goffman calls impression management. And so the way that he describes this is that we all have a front stage and a backstage self. And that is something that is normal. We all behave differently and want to represent ourselves in a certain way when we're in the presence of others. This becomes problematic when our front stage self is used to hide things, as they describe it,

that ought not be hidden. These are things about ourselves that can cause damage. And so this concept of impression management is something that abusers are really adept at, and they use a variety of really specific tools to do this. So one of the things that they do in these situations where they're intending to abuse, consciously or unconsciously, is that they make the person feel like they're really special, make the person feel like they're part of their inner circle of trust. This might include a level of exclusivity. It might include doing favors for that person, or they describe it as over-helping. And this is something that I can say that I experienced in my situation. There were things that I shared with my teacher. And then later,

those points of vulnerability were wrapped up in the ways that this person tried to use our relationship to cross boundaries. And so, for example, knowing that I had had an emotional affair nine years ago, when this person had an affair, it was, we're the same. And that we're the same feeling is part of what abusers use to garner that sense of trust. They oftentimes reveal more than they should in situations. So they're using their own vulnerability to weaponize and create that inner circle feeling. And that combination of getting a lot of positive attention combined with the sense of this is specifically for you and you and I are the same creates a scenario where that person ultimately allows boundaries to be crossed that they would not normally allow to be crossed.

So this is like a testing process. They slowly build this vulnerability and then this trust. And then once that is established, they strategically insert information and actions that would normally face resistance, but they're not facing resistance because that person has so much invested in the situation and there's such a bond. Can we pause for a second? Because this is a pattern that immediately calls to mind like a handful of people. It's crystallized that there was abuse happening there. Then they were the abuser they abused power and i was in a sense in this kind of abusive relationship with them which is a thing to just

sit with for a second and then also i think the other place my mind immediately goes is like when you use words like strategically kind of sharing information or I mean, essentially what you're doing is like disarming people like you want to get them disarmed. So that there's closeness and boundaries that are normally there in the beginning of a relationship are sort of dissolved so that right. There's not that resistance to what's going to happen. to what's going to happen. But I'm just thinking about my worldview and like, do people intentionally think like, oh, now's the time to drop that nugget of information so that this process can continue and I can disarm her? You know, like, I just, I wonder, is this something they've learned and they are doing, whether or not it's conscious or not? I mean, that this is just how they operate in the world? Where does this come from? That's a great question. So I'm reflecting back upon situations where I was abused by someone,

especially in my much younger years. And upon reflection, it's become clear to me that those people were also abused. And so I think there is a pattern that exists, a template where it becomes imprinted in some way and then activated in these situations without people even realizing that it's happening. I wouldn't say for sure that that's the case with every individual. I'm curious how many folks who engage in these sort of behaviors have experienced this themselves. Yeah, I think that tracks because as I think about like the examples in my life, I mean, I talk a lot on the one you feed about the relationship with my mom and also her illness and her death. And at the heart of that relationship was so much love and

devotion for like me to her and her to me. I mean, I count myself so fortunate to have known that kind of love and devotion. And it was a very complicated relationship with also layers of a lot of pain. And I realized, you know, emotional and verbal abuse. If I think about my mother, my sense is she didn't think the world was a safe place. And so she felt like in order to stay two steps ahead, this is how you move through life so that you're not caught off guard and potentially harmed. Yeah. Right?

Yeah. And I'm not even sure it was conscious. Maybe it was. Maybe it wasn't. But I think that was a learned thing for her. I think that was a bit of a blind spot and a pattern that wasn't interrupted. Or if she just felt like the world was unsafe, she was unwilling to operate differently. Yeah. And I want to pause here and just say that regardless of the love and care that's present in a relationship, that does not negate the need for boundaries when abuse is occurring.

negate the need for boundaries when abuse is occurring. Unfortunately, many folks, I think, can relate, Jenny, to the experience that you're describing. And I just worked with a group of teenagers just a few weeks ago, and we were talking about boundaries specifically. And many of them were describing situations at home where they had no control over those boundaries. And that is such a complicated and difficult dynamic. And I'm assuming that most of our audience right now are adults. And so in that scenario, the really empowering thing is that we can regain control in those situations and assert those boundaries and not have our past experience reframed for us as something that was okay. That's part of our power. Yeah. Is to be able to, yeah, claim that because you're right. I mean, that's the other thing that was just not present with my mom was boundaries.

Yeah. That was a bad word, right? Like boundaries equaled separation and separation was not loving. And so therefore there's this enmeshment that happens. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And in situations where we're not talking about a parent, that enmeshment is also something that perpetrators of abuse rely upon. I think part of the reason that my boundaries were tested so significantly in the last interaction with my teacher was because he knew because I had shared with him, how central he was to my spiritual life and experience. And that cost-benefit analysis is something that perpetrators rely upon, that the benefits are going to outweigh the costs of speaking our truth.

Yeah. I want to talk a little bit too about in these personal interactions, when someone does cross a boundary with us and we have the resources and the skill to say, that's not okay. What happens then? What is a standard response that a perpetrator might have in those situations? And in Wade Mullen's book, he specifically describes this concept called a flexible script, which I think is really an interesting idea that I saw played out in my own experience. So when abusers get called out,

what they do is basically say whatever they need to say to save the reputation and create the possibility that they'll still be able to fulfill that role create the possibility that they'll still be able to fulfill that role. And ultimately, they'll still be able to abuse others in the same way. And so some of the things that I saw in my situation is that the abuser would respond very differently to different people depending upon what he thought they wanted to hear. So just to give an example of this, one of the complaint processes was with this person's denomination, and they were Methodist. And so I was going through a process with the Methodist bishop's office, and far into

the process, I asked this question of, have you seen genuine remorse from this person? And they shared with me that they had seen so much remorse from him that they worried that he was going to hurt himself, and then proceeded to say that I did not need to worry about consequences because his life had been ruined and that the letter that I had written was difficult for her to read, let alone for him to read. Meanwhile, at the same time, he was communicating with the church community and diminishing his role in the situation, asking them to hold any communications that I'd sent in confidentiality and basically saying that he did not believe that what I was describing

was an accurate portrayal of what had happened. So he's presenting very different fronts to different people. This can look like denials. It can look like excuses. It can look like justification. In the process, he very often said to the folks that were responsible for enforcing consequences, I was just at this point of crisis and I made a mistake. It can include comparisons to others' worse actions. So at least I didn't do blank. And then lastly, relying upon any good deeds that

that person has engaged in the past as a counterbalance to the complaints that are now coming forward. So all of that can happen when someone comes forward and says, this wasn't right. And the thing that's missing on the side of the abuser is accountability, right? Like acceptance, ownership of the action and accountability. Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of things can be missing. Accountability is one of them. And the most profound, I think also, you know, true remorse can be missing because in order to engage in abuse that is harmful to others, there has to be justification on the other person's side. And so that justification then becomes what I did wasn't that bad, or that wasn't my intention, or here are the reasons that this unfolded the way that it did. So all of that has a lot of impacts on the individual who

is trying to come forward and say, this thing that happened wasn't okay. We all know that good habits are ways that we bring what we value into the world. And we each have our own list of what matters to us. Maybe you want to feel more energetic, improve your relationships, have a tidier home, cook more instead of eating out four nights a week. Whatever habit you want to build, it's entirely possible to make it happen. But if you feel under-equipped and overwhelmed to make real sustainable change, you are not alone. And that's why I've made my free masterclass open to everyone and available to watch anytime now. It's called Habits That Stick, How to Be Remarkably Consistent No Matter What Goal You Set. You can grab it at

oneufeed.net slash habits. Again, it's free and you can watch it whenever it works for you. Go to oneufeed.net slash habits. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really Know Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk

gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Brian Cranston is with us today.

How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening?

Really No Really. Yeah, really. No really. Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really? No, Really? And you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I just want to pause for a second here and say there's a great book called Mistakes Were Made But Not By Me.

great book called Mistakes Were Made But Not By Me. And it's a book all about like this phenomenon of cognitive dissonance and how our brains can't tolerate it. Like there is a basic sense that we all have that we all need to preserve, which is that I'm a good person. And so when we do actions that violate some sort of moral code, there's some sort of justification that happens subconsciously most of the time that explains why that was okay or explains why normal consequences that could happen aren't going to happen to us. The example that they use is like smoking. You know, you engage in smoking. It's very well known that that causes cancer and other kinds of illnesses. But like if you know that and you still smoke, there's some story you're telling which makes that something you can engage in and not have that kind of dissonance that is hard to hold. Like, for example, well, I only have one a day, so it's not like I'm smoking a pack a day, so et cetera, et cetera.

Or, well, I'm going to quit, you know, in the next couple of years and then I'll have plenty of time for my lungs to reset and I'll be fine. Or cancer doesn't run in my family. I mean, there are all kinds of things to make this action that is objectively harmful, not somehow as harmful. And I just think about what you're saying, which is like, there is this need to preserve a sense of, well, but I'm not an abuser and here's why. Yeah.

And I think in this conversation, yes, we need to understand how this happens. And that's why these things are important to talk about. And I also don't want to get in the place of trying to over-empathize with people who engage in this type of behavior because ultimately systems are doing that. And this might be a good time to shift gears

and talk about how organizations allow this kind of thing to happen because that's the norm. Okay. Let's do that. The norm is that this is allowed. The norm is that this is excused. The norm is that this is justified. And I think that this is another quote from Wade Mullen, nothing stays hidden without help. And that help comes through silence. And then this is my term and through willful ignorance. So another concept that was described in this book is this idea of disruptive information. And oftentimes in organizations, disruptive information is hidden or it's obscured because it threatens people's vision of that key leader, and it threatens their vision of that community.

So it's actually too painful to be able to acknowledge what's really happened. And again, consciously or unconsciously, this information gets buried. I want to talk a little bit more about this concept of disruptive information. And before I do, I want to read this quote. And this is from Judith Herman in the book. It says, it's very tempting to take the side of the perpetrator. All the perpetrator asks is that the bystander do nothing. He appeals to the universal desire to see, hear, and speak no evil. The victim, on the other hand, asks the bystander to share the burden of pain. The victim demands action, engagement, remembering.

So when a victim is presenting disruptive information, the desire of the organization is to take the path of least resistance. And oftentimes, that looks like tactful inattention. So this is another concept that's from a sociologist. And this concept, I think, goes from what I would describe as benign strategies that we all use to get through social situations to collective delusions that create a safe haven for abuse to happen. On the benign example, I think this is something that many folks can relate to. I've showed this example before, and it seems to resonate. We are on public transit for a moment. And the train, the plane,

wherever it is that we are is full. And everybody's kind of scrunched in together. and everybody's kind of scrunched in together and someone on that train or that plane or that bus starts playing a video or a song or whatever on their phone very loudly without headphones. And this is a pet peeve of mine. Normally what happens in that situation is that we all engage in tactful inattention. We just agree to pretend that this isn't happening,

that it's not annoying, and no one says anything. But the same idea of tactful inattention also comes into play when disruptive information that threatens organizations or threatens leaders comes to the fore. And collectively, the decision is made that we're going to obscure that information. We're not going to hear it fully. We're not going to engage in transparency. We're just going to all sit and hold our hands on our laps and wait for this to be over.

So what happens is that organizations desire to avoid a scandal rather than seeking the real change that would actually make community spaces safer. And then the second way that this happens is that there's a lack of transparency in the community about exactly what happened. about exactly what happened. This is where I think the term confidentiality becomes weaponized. Under the assumption that confidentiality is about keeping the victim safe, very oftentimes it's about keeping the organization safe. It's about keeping the perpetrator safe because they oftentimes fulfill these key roles in the community where if there's damage done to them, it also impacts the organization as a whole. And then lastly, organizations and communities become really overly focused on the good that they've done. Like, yes, this thing happened, but,

you know, look at all of these other good things that we're doing at the same time. Like, we're thriving more than ever. Like, we're going to move past this. It's almost like that grit and resilience idea of we're going to be better than ever. You know, what's interesting is I think back in my years in corporate America, one realization is coming to mind, which is I was either told or alert or whatever. Now, if you're listening and you're in HR and I'm getting this wrong, please do let me know. I don't mean to mislabel HR in this way if this is incorrect. My understanding was that HR's role is to protect the company, not you the person, right? Like,

they're not actually there to advocate for individuals. They're actually there to advocate and protect the organization. So I just find that an interesting idea. I've managed people. That was one of my roles. And so I worked with HR a lot in the personnel management and hiring and firing kind of process. So that does track with my experience of the HR departments I worked with. But it also makes me think about, you know, an idea that we've talked about, which is just the importance of gathering allies of your own, right? Like those that you know whose role is about supporting and protecting like you. Yeah. That's a team of people that can be very important to assemble, I would say, but I'd love to know what your thoughts are. Yeah. Well, one of the things that your comment made me think of was my own disillusionment with communities in this process. Because what I

realized is that while I was hearing the message, our priorities are first of all, protecting you, second of all, protecting any other victims, and third of all, protecting the church, it became very clear that the church was the prime thing that was being protected. And I don't think that's even a conscious choice. I think when folks invest their lives, their work, their energy, their resources into these communities, it becomes too personally damaging to actually do the work that would require them to reassess the fruitful and good nature of that organization. It becomes a position that people take without even realizing that their primary motivation is to make sure that that community doesn't get damaged. And how

they view that is shutting someone down instead of really looking at what change needs to happen. Organizations are primed for this type of abuse when a few things happen. And the first one is when secrets are kept. The second one is when roles are seen as above reproach. The term used here might be keystone roles. These are roles that are pivotal to the community and the reliance upon that charismatic leader makes the community over

invested in there being a safe person. And then lastly, when organizations are insular and they're not transparent to influence and oversight, which is why in my process, bringing a DEI expert, my friend, Law Baker, into the experience was key because she was that outside set of eyes to say, this isn't just our community who's looking at this issue. This is a larger issue. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor.

We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by.

Mr. Bryan Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really, No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel

might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really No Really. Yeah, really. No really. Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio

app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So I think we can transition into what this process actually feels like for individuals who are experiencing it. And Jenny, maybe you can talk a little bit about what it was like for you to be in a situation where there was abuse of power in an organization and you didn't have the support that you needed. Yeah. And I think it's important to talk about because as we've described how abuse of power can happen on the individual and collective level, you know, it's helpful because then we can begin to spot it and know what things to watch out for. So now talking about what that experience feels like for people

experiencing it, individuals experiencing it, I think it's important because then you can begin to identify it within yourself when you start noticing things, feelings and thoughts like this, you know, they can be markers, trailheads. So just if I reflect on that, when you think about really that grooming stage of when the abuser is creating closeness beyond what is maybe appropriate in either that relationship or that stage of the relationship or whatever. For me, that initially feels like a privilege. Like I'm getting this like closeness and inside access to someone who is in power, which makes me feel like somehow I'm in a position of privilege, right? Like somehow I'm in a position where it's going to be advantageous to have that kind of

relationship, especially in a corporate setting, because, you know, there is that power over you as like an employee. So career wise, you know, we all know that relationships are so important. So like now you have the super relationship with someone that has power. And so like that can only be good, right? I mean, that's just going to put you in an advantageous position moving forward. That's just the reality of the world. So I feel like that's something that might be good to watch out for and just sort of investigate when it comes up, like what's actually happening here. But then when the abuse of power is so clearly happening and the abuse is happening, and there's really a sense that there's no one I can tell or there's no way to seek protection from this person and that it's up to me, there's a sense of panic. There's a sense of like,

the burden of figuring this out is just completely on me. Like, I just got to figure this out. Like, I've got to find a way. I not only have to take this out. Like, I've got to find a way. I not only have to take this abuse, but then I've got to fix the abuse. And I've got to just do that by my bootstraps. I've just got to, you know, somehow be savvy enough to navigate my way out of an abusive relationship in a system that can never know what happened. And you're sort of always on guard, you know? You're always on guard for mitigating opportunities for abuse to happen again, while also not further hurting yourself by disrupting the relationship or the organization. Yeah. It's an impossible charge, really. I mean, it feels that way. Yeah. It is an impossible charge to both be able to protect ourselves and also not disrupt a system where when we disrupt

it, we know there will be costs to us. I have some kind of questions or statements that really resonated when I thought about what this feels like on a personal level and what the feelings are that came up. I think when abuse happens, it creates confusion. It creates disorientation. There's this question of how did I get here? Like, how did I let this happen? Which I think can lead to a sense of self-blame. Yeah, totally. Then there's this lack of agency too. And I heard you saying that, like, can I even stop this? How can I stop this? That feeling of helplessness, I think that can come up in situations like this. And then for some folks, and I'm curious if you felt this at all, I think it's

very common. It can create a sense of shame. Like how could I let this happen? Oh yeah. That is literally the next thing I was going to say, which is it's the shame and the anticipation of others judging you. Like I anticipate others going like, what did you do to get into this situation? Like, how did you let this happen? Like, with the previous boss I had that I talked about in the last episode, it's like, what signs did you give him that this was okay? Right? Like, you clearly are not operating in an ethical way because you left the door wide open. You know, he thought there was an opportunity there. So you anticipate that judgment. Yeah.

At least I did. And so then there's that thinking that that's true inside myself that keeps you silent. Yeah. Which is the last thing that I would say really happens in these situations when we're in these scenarios is this is my fault, so I can't tell anyone. And will anyone even believe my side of the story? Because there's going to be another side. These folks are going to fight back because they want their reputation and their position of power to be protected. Yes. Yeah.

It's very hard. It's a very difficult situation to be in. Yeah. It's the hardest situation. Yes. The situations where abuse have happened in my life are my hardest moments. And then we can take this lens of thinking about how incredibly challenging this is to the person who's experiencing it already. And then we can shift this over to, okay, so now we want to do

something and we say something and then what happens at the organizational level? This is my experience. When you share disruptive information, when you share abuse has happened and I am a victim of abuse, you are made to feel like a problem. Yes. You become the problem. Yes. Yeah. Well, that's, you nailed it right there for sure. Now you've got this

troublemaker. Now we've got to deal with this problem. Thanks a lot. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, in the aftermath of that feeling, again, conscious or unconscious, you get ignored, literally ignored. You know, like I talked about in the last episode, I went months without just being able to have a meeting where I gave feedback on how the situation was handled. And it's dehumanizing. You feel like you don't matter. And you're doing this incredibly hard thing, one of the hardest things you've done in your life. And at the same time, that's the message that you're receiving. Not thanks, not I'm sorry, but I wish you would disappear.

It's insanity making process because you have this really strong sense of urgency about what needs to be done because you have just been traumatized and no one else that you're communicating with seems to share that sense of urgency. It makes you question everything because you're like, why is everyone around me behaving as if nothing is happening? Right. You anticipate the shame and blame that's going to come with speaking up. And instead, what you're met with oftentimes is like this sense of like- Indifference. Indifference. And like, yeah, it makes you crazy. You're like, wait a minute, everybody, this awful thing has happened. What? Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I think, again, we talked before about, like, templates of abuse and interpersonal

relationships. I think there's a template for the collective indifference to abuse by people in power. And that template comes with a goal. comes with a goal. And the goal is to wear the victim's mental, emotional, spiritual resources down so that they will give up any attempt at making real change. Yeah. Yeah. I think of the word like disruptors, this disruption that happens. And even on like the mass transit example of like the person playing the really annoying music, but it's like, you don't want to disrupt the situation that's collectively being agreed to. Like that's just really hard. Yeah. And the impact of that is

that victims feel completely alone. Yeah. Completely alone. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about how healing can happen. Yes. What can we do? What would be healing to do? What would be helpful to do if we find ourselves in this situation? I have another quote that I want to share with you from Something's Not Right. And it says, many live with untold stories, not because they never want to tell them, but because they never encounter safe people and safe spaces where their stories can be heard. And so what this said to me, the reason that this spoke to me is because it's paramount to find those safe spaces where we can speak our truth.

And I think that navigating these situations, there's no right or wrong way to go about it. But first of all, it needs to look like finding allies and community members who will look at us and say, I believe you. This isn't your fault. I want to stand with you. When you find those supportive folks, you can begin to navigate these confusing waters of what to do next. But to do that without some sort of support is a difficult path that I want to navigate folks away from because it is so emotionally damaging. And I also understand that it is a challenge sometimes to find those people, but we have to keep looking. And even if we need to tell them, here's what I need from you in this moment, this is what I need and make that very clear.

I need you to say these words to me and that I need you to trust how I choose to move through the situation and support that. And then from there, we can begin to ask ourselves the question of what does it look like to share our truth in spaces that are unsafe? And we know that. And that might be conversations with someone who has crossed a boundary with us, with someone else present, and we're saying this wasn't okay and I need it to stop. It might be saying our truth in our communities and making a formal report in some way. Those are choices and options that we have once we have the support that we need.

And in speaking our truth, however much we can, with as much authority as we can, that's where healing happens because we're affirming our own human dignity in those moments where we say, no, enough, this isn't okay. So I want to just go back to the first step, which is to begin sharing our experience with safe people. Yeah. Because I think that sometimes when you're in this boat of shame, of like anticipatory shame and existing current shame for like the whole situation, or maybe you're afraid of the consequences. And so speaking up to anyone feels very dangerous. Yeah. Whatever the reasons that keep you blocked and stuck and silent, it might be helpful to orient towards a person even outside of the community where the abuse

is happening to start with. Like perhaps it's a trusted friend. Perhaps it's someone that's completely disconnected from that situation, but you know you can trust to listen and respond in a way that, you know, you either ask them to or that you anticipate will be like they're on team Brandy, you know, or they're team Jenny. And so a family member, a friend, therapist, because I think the act of just speaking your truth for even the first time is a powerful act because you begin to let those words come out of your head and out of your mouth and they are received by somebody. And therefore that experience now exists in like a safe context where it can be explored and witnessed and held. Just that very first brave act of telling someone that you trust can be the beginning of some healing there.

I mean, I think that part of staying silent and being like the one on the public transit who hears the music and is like, we need to say something like, this is crazy. This person should just put on some headphones. Like if there's one other person that you turn to and you say that to, and they're like, absolutely. Who is this jackass listening to this video? You know, immediately you feel a sense of like your power coming back. Yeah. Like, oh, it's not just me. It's not just me. Like, no, that's really fucked up. That's wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I resonate with what you're saying and it's really important. Yeah. It's really important. I think when we put the abusive experience into a safe context, even we then begin to see the harm that's been caused and how not okay the actions are. And then we can begin to talk through what else, if anything, needs to be done at this time, right? For your own healing

or for organizational support to eradicate the systemic abuse of power. Yeah, we can begin to explore that. Yeah. Well, I think one framework that is helpful for me is, again, this is from Something's Not Right, but abuse is a community concern. It's not an individual issue. And so it's communities that create the spaces that allow for this to happen. And then as we continue in the process and try to share our truth, that then allow these experiences to be hidden. It's through community that we will begin to find healing again. It cannot be an individual endeavor because it's not our fault. And it's not just our problem. It's everyone's problem that this happens so frequently. Yes. Yes. Even in a one-on-one relationship. I mean, community sounds like a big word,

right? But it's like community is just you and another person. That is its own little community. You and a handful of people or you and an entire organization. Yeah, and in both of our situations, yes, it was a one-on-one interaction. It was a one-on-one abuse situation, but you were in this corporate environment

where you knew that if you shared the information, it was at risk to your financial success, your sense of purpose in your career, all of these things. So there's a huge cost, and that cost is established by the community that you're a part of. And similarly, in my situation, this person was embedded in a community of people that he used to fish for potential victims that he could then cross boundaries with. And again, whether that's conscious or unconscious, that's the process that was happening. And the community itself is what allowed for that abuse to happen. And in the wake of reporting my own incident, I found out that this church had experienced similar situations with other perpetrators on a number of occasions. So this is not a one-time thing that's happening.

This is happening over and over and over again in so many of these communities. I guess I'm thinking too about like even in friendships or romantic relationships, like where it's you and the other person, right? And it's not necessarily a greater community that holds that relationship as much as it is one-on-one in your own life. I mean, I think you can still then go build a community of support, right? Outside of that relationship to help you navigate those waters. Absolutely. Yeah. When we're talking about abuse and we're talking about abuse of power, it can begin to feel that the world is a really dark place and that we are unsafe in our

communities, in our relationships, in our bodies. And I definitely got that sense in this experience. And so I want to end our conversation today on a note of hope. And there's another quote that I want to read from Wade Mullen's book. And it's this, every act of abuse is an assault on beauty. So I've learned to find the beauty that the abuser is seeking to assault and dismantle. In this conversation, I think the beauty that is being assaulted is our willingness to trust others, to hold our vulnerability, to create safe space for us. And I felt confident and determined throughout this entire process until today that I would not allow that to be dismantled by a single person or even by a community or a system that doesn't value my truth.

And I think that that's something that we can all hold as we move through these situations of abuse. What is the beauty that's here that's being assaulted? And what do I want to do to protect that beauty? Because it's real. I love that. Thank you for that. That's a wonderful note to end this conversation on. And I just hope that the things that we've shared have helped people identify instances in their own lives where there's an opportunity to reclaim power, to speak truth to first safe people, and then to navigate the waters in community. Because we're not alone, right? Because we're not alone. Yeah.

And to find healing in ourselves and healing in our world for people who have experienced abuse. And to know that that healing includes the awareness that we're not alone in these experiences, even if not a single other person ever knows what we've been through, and that there is some beauty inside of us that while others may seek to dismantle it, it's ours and they can't take it. Thank you, Brandy, so much. And thank you, listeners, for joining us in this conversation. And we hope that it's been supportive and helpful and we've really enjoyed talking thank you friends all right see you next time see you next time bye sharing and learning about human experiences is what we love. You've heard some of ours.

Now we'd like to hear some of yours. Head to oneufeed.net slash normalize to get in touch with us with comments, experiences of your own, or really anything you'd like to share. You'll also find all things related to Something to Normalize right there on the page for you. Most of all, thank you so much for spending your time with us today. Until next time. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden.

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