The One You Feed - How to See Yourself Through Darkness with Mariana Alessandri

Episode Date: August 9, 2024

In this episode, Mariana Alasandri shares how to see yourself through dark moods and learn to embrace difficult emotions without shame. Her journey of understanding emotional pain and the societal pressure to always be positive sheds light on the importance of addressing emotional pain without feeling broken. In this episode, you will be able to: Explore how society’s view of dark moods impacts our emotional well-being. Understand the impact of labeling moods as mental illnesses and how it affects our self-perception Discover the power of using metaphors to understand and express complex emotions Release the pressure to maintain a positive outlook and learn how to navigate it authentically Learn effective ways to address emotional pain without feeling broken or defeated To learn more, click here!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

If you say something is going on, it's really common for people to tell us, well, you're so strong, you're going to get through this. And it's like, well, that's not what I was asking for, right? Like what that does is it actually shuts the door. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit.

But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction. How they feed their good wolf. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like

why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to reallyknowreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. The Really Know Really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Mariana Alessandri, the Associate Professor of Philosophy at the University of Texas, Rio Grande Valley, the nation's first bilingual university. She's co-founder of RGV Puede, a nonprofit whose mission is to promote dual language education in South Texas public schools.

Today, Eric and Mariana discuss her book, Night Vision, Seeing Ourselves Through Dark Moods. Hi, Mariana. Welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to discuss your latest book, which is called Night Vision, Seeing Ourselves Through Dark Moods. And I'm pretty sure that plenty of listeners go through dark moods. I know I certainly have had more than my fair share of them in my life. And so I'm excited to talk with you about the value of dark moods in our lives. But before we do that, we'll start like we always do with the parable. In the parable, there's a grandparent

who's talking with their grandchild. They say in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops, and they think about it for a second, and they look up at their grandparent, and they say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. Thank you.

I love that you asked this question to everybody, because you must have heard a thousand answers by now. A thousand different takes on it, right? So I used to really like this sort of idea that there's two different things inside of us. And they're sort of vying for our attention, whether it's like the angel and the devil, or in the Jewish tradition, like Yetzir Haran, Yetzir Hatov. And I don't know if anyone has kind of talked about that. But I used to really like it. And it wasn't until I had kids that I had to really think about, well, how am I going to teach my kids about the feelings that we have inside of us and like, remain one whole person rather than someone who feels constantly divided. And so I've moved away from enjoying that parable in terms of thinking

of us both in terms of good and bad. So I don't like those words for us. Or just that they're fighting, like, like, there's something so violent about it. Like, there's two things fighting inside of me. And so when I was writing this book, I was actually thinking about that parable. And thinking about well, what does it mean to feed it like the one you feed? So that means that there's something inside of us, there's these two things inside of us, one of which we feed and the other of which we starve, and hoping that the one we feed one of which we feed and the other of which we starve, and hoping that the one we feed is going to completely demolish the other one. And then I just think, uh-oh, like if that's inside of me,

then that means that I'm going to be demolishing part of myself. I'm going to be hurting part of myself. I'm going to be rejecting part of myself. And a really nasty death, a nasty death of starvation. And so I have kind of just taken that parable and thought of it more as like, wow, that sounds like a recipe for disaster to feed a side of yourself instead of kind of talking to it, thinking about it, asking it what it's there for. Why are we having these feelings? There's a few philosophers who are kind of working on rehabilitating these emotions like envy and anger and things like this.

And so I'm more like I want to be nice to myself now. I feel like I grew up with a lot of sense of being like bad. And I feel like I don't want that for my kids. I want to give them this portrait of us like we feed both sides. And like we love both sides. We love ourselves. The other thing that this made me think of is when you have kids, right? So when you have a kid and they start crying, like inevitably at some point in your life,

someone says, well, they're just crying for attention. And that's supposed to mean, yeah, don't give it to them. Like all they want is your attention. And I have completely flipped on that. I'm like, that's a pretty straightforward ask, right? Like, oh, you need my attention. Let me give you my attention. And so that's how I feel now about the so-called like bad wolf, which, you know, if we're looking at Plato, he actually does call it a dark wolf. I know that you try not to kind of put color on them, but it's just like, historically, the bad wolf is the dark wolf is the black wolf is the passions, you know?

So I think more like the problem is that we're starving part of ourselves. The problem isn't that there's these two wolves fighting inside of us. And I think if we can get right with like trying to give attention to the parts of us that need more attention, I think we'll be, I don't know, I guess, happier people or more well-rounded or more accepting or at least less divided people. Yeah. In the book, you actually talk about, let me just find it here real quick, you know, that if we were to feed the bad wolf, it might even seek out the light wolf and lay down and they'll curl up together at our feet, which is just a beautiful metaphor

to think of that thing. There are certainly, as you mentioned, I have not done a thousand interviews, but I've done probably 650. So I've heard this a lot and I have read it a lot. And if I were to start a show today, I doubt I would start it with that parable as the orienting point. But it's worked this far and I think it allows us to look at things from different angles. It allows us to look at things from different angles. But like you, it used to be more straightforward to me than it is now.

Although I still see the core message being one of some degree of choice about attention. And we're going to get into what degree do we control our moods. I think that's a really important question. But we do have some degree of ability to choose where to place attention. And the thing I like about the parable also is that I feel like it humanizes us that we all feel these things inside of us that often feel like they're going different directions maybe. But the idea of starving one part of ourselves to me now feels like, ugh, which it actually doesn't say to do. In my mind, I sort of justify it like, well, maybe they're just giving the good wolf a little bit more food than the bad. But anyway, that's a lot about me and the parable, which is not what we are here to talk about. I want to start by talking about how we as society view

what you are calling darker moods. And there's a question that you raise that I really think is important. And it says, does it help or hurt that most of our dark moods are classified as mental illnesses? So I'm going to let you jump into that fairly wide pool wherever you like. Okay, thank you. I agree with you about the relatability of the metaphor of the wolves, because I was asking my kids about it last night, like what would they think? And they got it right away. They're 12 and 10. They get it. And so it's a very compelling metaphor that allows you to sort of see it and then say, okay, well, what do we do with the fact that we sometimes have these competing feelings? So about the dark moods, how does society see them? I think I always like to start by talking about the light because that helps me orient. So I think of it as

like a two edged system or something where the overriding pressure from our society, at least that I feel and that some readers have felt with me, is the pressure to be positive, right? The pressure to be light, the pressure to be bright, the pressure to glow, the pressure to be radiant, the pressure to be brilliant. We have so many tiny metaphors that privilege the light over the dark. And so you're supposed to bring your own sunshine in these days, right? No one's supposed to get you down. If you're in a dark mood, you're supposed to kind of not subject anyone to that, right? Like isolate yourself or something like that. We're supposed to shed light on difficult problems. We're supposed to have a

light bulb moment. And you know, all the way back to just looking on the bright side, right? Like we're talking 1950s stuff. And so what I see around me in my world, at least in the US, and I've heard that other people from other places are feeling similar things, is just the pressure to associate light with intelligence, with positivity, with health, with just anything that you think of as good is like will attach some kind of metaphor that makes it sound really bright and even lightening up. kind of metaphor that makes it sound really bright and even lightening up. Like, that's all like one way of thinking about it. And it's attached to slogans that don't invoke the light, but I feel like they're of a piece, which is like, no bad days, right? Hashtag no bad days. I just, when I see like, my kid was playing soccer when I was writing this book, and his coach actually

wore that shirt that said hashtag no bad days. And I was like, oh, like I can't even come on the field. If that's the playing field, like I can't even show up. Hashtag no bad years. Nothing bad. Zero bad. It's kind of like all light and no dark. And I think it was Nora McInerney who said that when she sees a mat, like a welcome

mat that says good vibes only, she just turns around like leaves, right? Because it's just impossible. And it's a very stark, like all or nothing, good vibes only. The epitome of it for me is the choose happy, choose happy. And that I'm sure we'll get into more because it's got to do with the Stoics. But it's just this kind of overriding sense that this is all within my control. And I can choose happy. And it's about my attitude. And I can make myself well. And so when I am happy, sometimes I tend to think that I've done it, right?

Like it was because of my choices. It was because I changed my perspective. It was because I adopted a positive attitude. It was because I made lemonade out of lemons. So there is no conflict there. And if I am writing a self-help book, then I can say, oh, I was in a dark place too. And then I did X, Y, and Z, and now I'm in the bright place and you can get there too. And here's what you have to do. So there's no conflict until the day that you wake up day, days, years that you wake up and you're like, Oh, I'm not okay. And I'm not feeling well. And I don't know how to call it. And so what I noticed was that the words just like all the words for the light stuff are really good and

positive and strong. The words for the dark moods are pretty hideous. And these are the words supplied to us by society. I don't think we're making these words up as individuals. It's mental illness, it's disease, it's dangerous. I mean, the darkness and the danger has always been associated with ugliness, with non-intelligence, poison. We can get back to Seneca on that. Brokenness is a huge one. This was a big deal. I went to Mexico, I think two years ago, and there was this beautiful drawing, and it was of like one of those Greek busts, you know, the head, and it was chopped in half. So it was only half of the bust's face. And in English across it, it said broken. And I was like, oh, that's interesting, right? Like one, it's in English, but it's in English across it, it said broken. And I was like, oh, that's interesting,

right? Like one, it's in English, but it's in Mexico. I bought it because I want to remember always that it feels like this thing that we have attached to it because it's in English, like has like seeped down all the way into Mexico city. The idea that if I have a mental illness, then I am broken. I'm a broken human being. And otherwise I'd be functioning. then I am broken. I'm a broken human being and otherwise I'd be functioning. We also say I'm breaking down. We say I'm a hot mess. Like there's no nice ways to talk about it when we're in pain or when we're grieving or when we're anxious. Like we have so much pressure to kind of just feel bad about feeling bad. And I think it's bad enough just to feel bad. I think it's bad enough to be grieving, but then there's some standard upon which we are measured against. And then we end up feeling what in this book I'm calling shame,

which is just this feeling bad about feeling bad. And that's the layer that I would like to take off. I'd like to sort of expose it as a societal problem. Like we, society is not giving us enough language, but then what we get from certain sectors of society is like, well, you just have to change your narrative. And I'm like, well, me? Like, we're getting words from society, right? These are the words that I've been taught to use. And so I want to rethink about like, how to talk nicer about our dark moods as a society, not just as an individual, because I can like do the work, quote unquote, by myself. But I think it's like a bigger problem than just me. I'm not the only one who thought that I was a monster every time I got angry, right? That's a societal convention attached to women who, you know, get angry, and it's quote, unquote, unladylike, right? So there's like lots

of societal like trimmings, it's steeped in ancient philosophy, but it has these like legs in a lot of different sectors in society. So the light metaphor is the bright one. And then the underbelly is what I'm calling the brokenness story, which is just like, once you're not in that club anymore, then you feel like garbage about yourself. You feel like you have no dignity. You feel like you're the only one going through it. And you feel like if everyone else has gone, okay, well, at least you're in a club with all these other losers, right? There's nothing like positive about it. So I wanted to try to, I don't know, I guess, infiltrate that narrative and just add different ways of thinking about it through using different philosophers.

There's so many things in what you said there, so many different directions that we could go. I agree with you that anything that we can do that gets rid of feeling bad about feeling bad is a good thing, right? Anything that we can do that normalizes emotion. And when I say emotion, I mean, that just means there's going to be good and bad emotions, right? There's just both that normalizes that I think is a really good thing. I also think what gets challenging, and this is as someone who is a former heroin addict, who's dealt with actual clinical depression at one point, and then I'm not sure what to call it in its later years. That's an interesting topic as somebody who has felt all that there's also in me a desire to not feel that. And not just because society tells me

that it's bad, but because it hurts. I don't like it. Even when I accept it, it still hurts. And I seek a way of relating to it differently. And so I think some of it is we've got a societal thing to it. And then I think there's also underneath that is the natural desire that I think humans have to try to alleviate their very real emotional pain. I'm so happy that you brought it up with such nuance. I think what's important in talking about any of this, there's so many ways to fall into a rut or a pitfall or like ways of thinking that have been done before and that don't serve us. And one of them is this kind of idea, like your depression is your gift or something like this, right? Like this is the romanticization of like, oh, I needed my anxiety to push me. And I 100% am on the side of the individual. Like if you want to hate your anxiety, go for it.

That's okay. Like from the place of pain, you could want to trash it like anything. And Gloria Anzaldúa is actually the philosopher I talk about when talking about depression. And I think she would have trashed it if given the choice at all. Right. So I think hating it is perfectly 100% within your rights and it's individual, right? There are some people who end up saying, Oh, well, this actually turned out to be okay for me, whatever. Like, I don't think

anyone has the right to say that for somebody else. Like, Oh, you needed this. This was your gift. This is how you learned X, Y. You can only say that I think in first person. So for you, it's just like the pain you feel like you can be 100% against that pain and want to get rid of it. But for me, the fact is that we always already are still going to have it. And that's, it's like, how do we then create the narrative of the self given that you have a thing? It's just like the wolves. It reminds me of the wolves. It's like, is it inside of us? Is it alongside of us? And I've done some reading on like children's books about mental illness. it's really interesting to look at how

people are trying to teach kids to think about this stuff. Because, you know, in one book, anxiety is like this bubble that's outside of you. And sometimes it comes and you put in your pocket, and then you want to get rid of it. And so some metaphors, I think are more apt, and probably depends on who you are and how you think of your anxiety, depression, etc, which is also fine. But I guess my point is like the metaphors we use and the narrative we tell about our own lives, I think a lot of stuff is better than, well, I'm just garbage then, right? I'm broken. I'm breaking down. I've gotten this from my students who basically say, well, I'm a great human being except for, you know, I'm broken because I have to take medicine or I'm, except for that I have depression. Other than that,

I'm perfect. And so what they would like to do is trash the depression. And I get that, right? Like, if we could trash it, let's just do that. I don't think anyone needs it. So let's trash it. But we can't is the problem. Like no medicine is actually good enough for that. So now like Ansal Dua, it's like, okay, I have it, I can either hide it in a corner of my existence and not tell anyone about it and only show them my beautiful writerly side and my creative side and just kind of be embarrassed and ashamed of this. Or I can like fold it into the way that I talk about my life and myself and like, it's sad and it's painful.

And also it's part of me. So what do I do with the wolf? Like if the wolf is a depression, like it's either going to be part part of me. So what do I do with the wolf? Like if the wolf is depression, like it's either going to be part of your narrative or it isn't. And my concern mostly is how does the self feel about itself? Is the language that we use to turn against ourselves or is the language that we used used to kind of create a whole self out of us, the good, the bad, and the ugly, the parts that feel good, the parts that feel bad. But in no way do I think we have to say that they're good for us and they only feel bad. I think we can just safely hate them

and also realize that we're kind of stuck with them. And so what do we do? How do we build them into the way that we think about ourselves? Yeah. Again, there's about a hundred different places to take that really profound answer. And I think that talking about mental illness, I often think about this a little bit like the concept of addiction as a disease. I feel like that was a step forward because before it was a moral failing, right? So the step to a disease feels like a progressive step, and yet it's still a label that I think can either be empowering, or it can be disempowering as a label. And that very same label alcoholic for me has played both those roles at points. There's points where that label was really helpful and useful to me, same as being a person who has

depression was to call it something and to be able to talk about it with other people who had the same thing was helpful. And then there was a point where that label becomes limiting or self-reinforcing. And so I, like you, think it's really tricky how we talk about these things. I don't think there are easy answers. I mean, I think that you're ultimately right that every individual should get to choose for themselves the metaphor that makes sense. My experience is it's only later that we have enough insight about what's even happening to start making those sort of choices. And maybe that's just the way it is. And at the same time, as you say, societal labels can be really difficult. And I'm truly of two minds around how much we discuss mental health these days and the ways that we do it, because I see it as a really sort of double-edged sword.

Yeah. I like that you brought up disease as progress, because I think that's true. I think it's like a step, especially if we're talking about the label as diagnosis, right? So I still have some students whose parents think that depression is laziness. Right. Or sin, lack of faith. Like, what do you have to be depressed about? What do you mean? So that's like, I see like the before, I'm like, oh, whoa, we're much better than that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Because if we just thought that alcoholics are just assholes, like we're not going to get very far. But we have to realize like, okay, these are human beings, nobody is choosing this, there's got to be something more at play, there's got to be something that feels sort of out of one's hands, you know. And so I think that the diagnosis or the label or the disease takes it from being something that I'm doing to everyone around me to something that is wrong,

right? Like what's wrong, but I want to keep it from being what's wrong with me, right? Like I'm always wary of that language. I want to stay in the zone of like, what's wrong? What's wrong with my circumstances? What's going on? Versus like, I'm failing myself or I've been diseased or something. So I've thought a lot about this kind of like, I don't know, just the difference between depression and a broken foot. Yeah. Or is depression just a broken brain or all that kind of like talk and where it leads us, back to the metaphor language, right? If you go down this road, where are you going to end up? Are you going to be on your own side or are you going to be against yourself? If you go down this

road, are you going to be on your own side or against yourself? And so, and I also favor everyone having like multiple, if they want multiple labels, this is what I liked about Anseldo specifically talking about her depression, because she was like, she could call it depression. And she had a couple of times, but most of the time she didn't call it depression. So I think we don't have to get rid of labels. We don't have to get rid of diagnoses. Obviously, there's a lot of importance in diagnoses for access to healthcare. So I think diagnoses are great. People seem to love them. Like you were suggesting, right? Like for a time, like this is great because I feel seen. Otherwise, I just thought I was crazy. Otherwise, I just thought this. But now that I have this label, it's legitimate. So I think that we don't have to get rid of the word mental illness or any of the labels. Like I think they're fine.

I don't like how they are just all encompassing.. Like, I think they're fine. I don't like how they are just all encompassing. Like, it's almost like they're exclusive. And I want to say, okay, you can call it anxiety, but you can also call it this. I like the people who are trying to be creative. I think Glennon Doyle is one who's like trying to be creative about like, this is my fire or this is my energy or something. Like, just let's add more labels, if anything, if we want labels, like add more different ways to think about it, rather than only I'm broken, I'm mentally ill, you know, this is my disease, because that's just this is not going to inspire a person to feel really good about themselves. It's going to make them feel like flawed human beings. And I just

think we're not that is human. We're all human. I don't think any of us is broken. I literally don't think it's possible for a human being to be broken because then you'd have to ask, well, what are you a broken version of them? If you're broken, what's the ideal? Like, what does it mean to be unbroken is to not have any dark moods or anything like that seems to me creepier. Right. So I just want to introduce like more things or allow people to have the creativity to, to have more kind of labels, more ways of describing themselves than just the ones supplied by society. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast,

our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you. And the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts?

His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Brian Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really, No Really, sir. Bless you all.

Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really, No Really. Yeah, Really. No Really. Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or. Yeah, really. No, really. Go to reallynoreally.com and register

to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really, No, Really. And you can find it on the iHeartRadio app on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I think you say it really well. You say, can we imagine recognizing a person's suffering and giving them access to help without asking them to see themselves as broken? And I think that says it so beautifully. There's another phrase that you've used a number of times that I picked up and it's like literally the top thing kind of on my list to talk about. And I'm glad you keep saying it, which is to be on our own side. We interviewed a guy, his name's Aziz Gazapura, and he wrote a book. It's called On My Own Side. And the minute I heard that phrase, I went, yes, that's exactly it. What does that mean to you to be on our own side? I mean, I can tell you I have years of experience not being on my own side, right? So my example in the book is my anger.

Like I'm super angry person and a lot of things set me off. And I used to just think this is my flaw. This is my sin. This is my weakness. This is what makes me a bad person. This is what makes me a monster, especially as a woman and especially as a mother, right? This is like just the worst thing you can be as a mother is someone who's like mean to your kids or angry or just shows their anger or something. So I just would look in the mirror and be like, what kind of a monster are you?

That was my word. And it's not a stretch to say that that's not being on your own side, right? It's to look at a self with disdain or embarrassment or shame or just it's to say that you're wrong the way you are, right? That your way is not okay. That you are fundamentally not worthy the way that maybe other people are. Like, you know, I've heard of people refer to themselves as trash people. And just like all these things that I could definitely relate to, I think this is something that still sort of comes into my mind because it's from childhood, not from anyone even telling me that, but just from the way that I was raised. And like, people are just kind of, I don't know, jerks or selfish or greedy or all these things. And so I

would have a relationship with myself that was super critical, right? Just whatever you're doing, it must be wrong. And sometimes with my husband, we joke because I'll be upset about something. And then he'll be like, oh, you probably just did something really stupid and wrong. And then I just have to laugh because it's exactly where my mind is going. But then I think part of why I wrote this book is like, I don't want that. I want to befriend myself. So to be on my own side is to say, hey, what's going on? Like, if I find myself so angry, maybe something's actually going on. And my husband's cousin works in Denali in Alaska in the, what was the name of like forest? I don't know. Alaskan tundra or something. And she has people go out there with

her in some kind of team. And if one of them is constantly complaining, like constantly have something wrong, constantly needy, constantly something she's like, oh, it's deeper, right? Something is really wrong, right? So she's using that as a sign that you have to investigate something. I think it's a myth that people just want to be negative. I've been told that a lot. Oh, you just like being negative. No, it's, is there something about it that you're trying to reach out? You're trying to get help. You're

trying to announce something about yourself, about your situation, and you maybe don't know what it is, right? So it comes out in these forms that may be irritating to other people. But I think to take my own side is to listen to those, like with my anger, and this is what I had to do during COVID and say, why am I yelling at my kids? What's going on? Because then if you don't take your own side, it stops there. It stops that I'm a monster. I guess I'm just an asshole. That's it. And I don't think about it anymore. I don't listen to it. I don't try to understand my situation. It's just me that's broken. But if I can get past that, and Audre Lord Lord and Maria Lugones really helped me get past it,

to be like, wait a second, time out. Let's think of this as neutral. Let's think of this as just information. What is going on? What's wrong? Not what's wrong with me, but what's wrong with my situation. And then you can find out things that you wouldn't have found out if you're not taking your own side. So I love that phrase, just because it makes me feel like I can breathe. Of all things, like I just want people to take their own side and not let society make them feel like they're less than human or less than people or less than fully formed. Like none of us is broken. We're fully formed.

We struggle and we're in pain and we're grieving. And these are all the things of life. I think what you said about your anger there is a really important idea. I think what you said about your anger there is a really important idea. Because to be on our own side is one way of rephrasing a term that was popularized by someone in your state, Kristen Neff, about self-compassion. It's a slightly different way of saying the same thing. And one of the things that I think is so valuable about that idea is exactly what you said. If you stop at I'm a monster or I'm broken or I'm bad, there's not a lot of opportunity for you to actually become different. There's not a lot of opportunity for you to learn how maybe not to be angry at your children, right? And I think

in your book, it goes without saying you get to a point where you really sort of get to the place where it's like, being angry is fine. I'm actually okay with that. It's just there are certain ways that in which I express it that I wish I was doing differently. We can't do that when we're critical of ourselves, I don't think because I think that we shut down the learning centers in our brain by doing that. And all of a sudden, we can't make changes, even if that's what we decide we want to do. It's a really stuck point. Yeah, no, I agree. It made me think of a lot of people like Brene Brown talking about vulnerability and the way she describes shame, which is that feeling, it just stops you in your tracks, right? So if shame is the feeling bad about feeling bad, I'm angry.

I already feel angry, right? That's bad enough. I'm angry. And now I feel bad about it. Then I shut down. Just like what you said is I can't then be like, oh, let's get curious about this emotion. How might I do like the curiosity will only come in if I can get rid of the top layer of shame.

And I can just be like, oh, yes, it's perfectly human emotion to get angry. And it probably means something. And something's probably telling me something. I don't let myself off the hook in terms of like, oh, that just means all my anger is fine. Like, I think that especially Audre Lorde is very nuanced in her description about anger. And it's not to say that all anger is now virtuous, but I don't want it to be all vicious. Like I don't want our knee jerk reaction to be, if I'm angry, that means it's bad. And I think that is the legacy that we get from the Stoics. And reading Seneca with my students is one of the funnest things I can do because he says it so baldly and so many times over again, that anger is a poison. And like, you shouldn't even let yourself feel it. Like not even I mean,

Aristotle's nicer to us. Aristotle's like, Oh, whatever, it's a feeling. Just don't act on it. Don't be a jerk to people, right? Don't hit people like be careful of your behaviors. So I think of it as like Seneca or the Stoics, they say, like, I'm sorry that I got angry. And if you say things like that, I'm sorry that I felt this way. I'm sorry that I'm sad. I'm sorry that I'm angry. That actually means that you believe you can stop it from happening. That you're of an older school, I think, that is like, I can, by force of will and practice and habit and the good stoic lifelong practice, like I can stop the emotion from bubbling up in me.

And then Aristotle, who I found nicer, says, no, you know what? It's a feeling. Feelings happen. Feelings come and go. You are neither judged nor praised for your feelings, right? It's not about your feelings. It's about your action. It's about what you do with it. And I feel like our world is actually full of both people. And sometimes people who think both things, which as a philosopher, I don't think you can, I think you actually have to choose like, either you believe that you are in 100% in control of your emotion, or that you're not. And I think that the not is a newer way of thinking like the people who say all the feels and like, you just feel your feelings, but his line is strong, like Aristotle, that is, will, just don't act on it, right? Like,

don't throw it all away, because your behavior is on which you get judged, right? So if you act badly, and you, you know, curse out a waiter, because you're mad, like, that's not okay. But it was okay that you were mad that they spilled water on you or something like that. So I kind of think it's a really important distinction to think through whether we're more leaning as Stoics individually, Like, do you think that it is something that you should have been able to control that you shouldn't even ever gotten angry? Because then you're going to be real tight on yourself. You're going to be super critical of yourself. And you'd be like, oh my God, I can't believe I let myself get angry

again. Or if you're more Aristotelian, you'd be like, okay, that's okay. But I really shouldn't have done what I did. And in the book, I ended up throwing almonds at my kids because they couldn't decide. They couldn't split them in half evenly, you know, and they were little. And so I just ended up being fine. These are yours and those are yours, you know? And it's like, no, that was not the right behavior, right? Like, yes, the anger is okay. But then upon reflection, it's like, okay, I have to go and apologize, right? Like, so that's kind of more Aristotle's way of like, you can control your behavior, but don't get stuck trying to control your feelings.

And my students, I give them an exercise. One week, they have to be Aristotelian and they get to have whatever feelings without being mad at themselves about those feelings, but they have to act virtuously. Another week, we try stoicism. You have to try not to feel bad feelings because those are going to bring you down. They're going to make you feel worse if you like allow them in and see how much control you think you have over your emotions and then write a paper about it, you know? So that's like really fun to sort of practice what feels more natural to which individual? Yeah, I think it's interesting because I would, unlike you, I would split the difference. I would say, well, no, we were not

ultimately in charge of our emotions. I don't think our emotions have a lever on them that we grab and pull. But I think there are levers around our emotions that influence them. The Stoics, I feel like takes it way too far, right? It's sort of like everything that happens is a result of what's going on inside of you. It's all there. And I think that's preposterous. We exist in a world with other people and situations that are fair and not fair and just and unjust. And we have different genetic makeups and we have all these different things. So I think to believe that it's all inside me, but to also believe that it's all the situation is, I think, misguided also, because there is a role for how we frame that situation. And so

I would sort of be a, but this is me in general, I'm not saying it's always right, which is that I'm a middle way kind of person, right? So I would be like, well, no, we can't completely control our emotions and we can have influences. We can, we can do things that make it more likely that we feel a certain way. I think my depression is a great one or my melancholy. I don't even know what to call it anymore is one that on some level I can't, I've tried, I can't make it go away. It just seems to be, I'm more leaning on the like, well, it's just part of who I am. It's part of my temperament. And yet I know that there are very clear things that I can do in my life that make it more likely that I won't spiral into the really darkest forms of it.

Yeah. That sounds more like Aristotle. I think you're actually, because Aristotle's pool is like bigger. If the Stoics are here kind of as more extreme, Aristotle gives a lot of leeway, like who we surround ourselves with, right? Who are we friends with? We can control the circumstances of our lives that will make it more or less common that we will feel those things. So I think you're right. Or I think that you're, you're describing a position, which is not in between them necessarily, but like Aristotle has room for all of that stuff. It all has to do with behavior choices, right? The choices I make about who I'm around, about what I watch, about what I allow myself, you know, to do on my phone or things like that, like certain choices will probably exacerbate this bad feeling and other choices

might not. And so while I think ultimately when push comes to shove, he's going to say, investigate more or like put more of your effort into that, into those circumstances, into like, how are you building your life? Like physically through your actions and interactions, rather than living up here, censoring yourself for like, why am I still like this, right? Especially when something goes back and back, we get super angry at ourselves. God, like I'm 45 years old, like I shouldn't be still like this, you know, and that can just like, eat us up inside. So I think he would rather be like, it's not just external circumstances that are beyond my control, but certainly external circumstances that are within my control.

Yeah, I'm working on a book and I've been writing a chapter about like, what do we do when we are right at the choice point of something? And we know what we want. When I say want, I mean, the wiser part of me wants to do, right? Like I've gotten clear. I know here's the choice I want to make. And yet we find ourselves at that choice point where there is a conflict, right? That's where some people often feel the metaphor of the wolves or the devil or angel, right? It's right in that moment. I know what the thing is that the best part of me wants to do. And yet, I've read more behavioral science papers about this idea over the last month than is probably wise for anyone to ever do. But they all agree on one sort of key thing.

And it's that if you're relying on what we call willpower, in those situations, you're probably in trouble. Right? You know, you may have some of it, but it's not good. You've got to design your life in such a way that you end up at that place far less often. And I think that I can take that back to you and your anger, right, that you describe in the book. Because what you ultimately had to do was go, I don't like the way I acted at my children. And yet, I don't seem to not be able to do that. So what's going on here? You listened to your anger more deeply. You allowed

it more deeply and it showed you some more structural elements of your life. These environments that we're talking about that needed to change for you to be the person that you wanted to be. Is that an accurate way of saying it? Yes, yes, yes, yes. I love that you use the word design. And I think that word used to be so confusing to me. Like, what does that even mean? But it really is how do you structure your life such that you won't get as irritated? Like if I'm irritated every single day, am I overwhelmed? Like it was so much nicer for me to feel like I was overwhelmed than feel like I was a monster. That was like a nicer narrative for me. And then I was like, okay, okay, if I'm overwhelmed, right with curiosity, like, why am I overwhelmed? What's going on? What could I reduce? Is there

anything that I could do? Like design your life so that you kind of don't have to rely on willpower. I think that's like beautifully stated. There's so many times when we think or would like willpower to be there, but it's only there for like the first 10 minutes, right? And then after that, whether it's like, you know, resolutions or whatever, like when they go by the wayside, if I can say, you know, this part of my life is designed such that every three months, I'm going to check in with this or every two weeks, I'm going to do this, like some part of it is like, set, so that you don't have to have the motivation or the willpower. But you also said something else that I really liked, which is this kind of part of me wants to do this or the better part of me said, and that reminded me, I am pretty taken with the internal family systems. And I know that you

interviewed Richard Schwartz, because what he does is just break it up. Like we're all multiple, like part of me wants to do that. And then another part of me doesn't want to do that. And so if the part of me wins out that didn't want to do that, then instead of being like, I'm so mad at you, like, why did why do you run the show? Why did you win again? Why couldn't I control my x, y, or z, then it's like to be like friendly with it. Like, oh, that's interesting. Like, what what's up with you? Like, I often talk to this part of me that I just call worry. And it wakes me up in the middle of the night. And it talks to me incessantly about how I'm doing everything wrong and how I'm never going to finish anything and all this. And I just sort of ask it like, why? What are you

getting out of this? Why do you have to wake me up at this hour and keep me up for an hour and make me feel bad, you know? And then what it said was, oh, it's because I can't get you during the day. You never let me talk during the day. And I was like, okay, would you be happier if I let you talk during the day? And it's worried for me. And I like his whole system that all the parts are good. All the parts are just trying to help you. Even if they look like bad parts, it reminds me of that kid trying to get attention.

It's like they need attention. Okay, so let me give them attention. And I'm also currently in therapy. And my therapist was telling me when you have nightmares, and you run away from the thing, sometimes the thing gets bigger and scarier. And he's like, try if you can just to turn toward it and see what happens if you turn the other way or try to touch it or try to go toward it because it's getting bigger and scarier because you don't know what it is. But if you turn toward it, maybe it was nothing. It's trying to get your attention. And so it will get more and more, I don't know, scary. So I'm trying more and more in my life to turn toward the things. So like in your example of like part of me wants to do this and part of me is definitely rebelling. It's like, okay, rebellious part. What are you trying to protect of me? Like, how are you trying to help me? Even though it looks like you're sabotaging my life, what are you trying to do for me that like, you're just sort of misunderstood. I like thinking of our

parts as kind of like, I guess it's like the bad wolf, right? It's just the misunderstood or like, has its reasons wants to be listened to wants to be heard. Then for me that achieves the same aim of being like a unified individual or an individual who's on its own side, like all the parts of me are good. No one here is really bad. Sometimes we do things that we can't explain because we have different sides of us that have different goals. But, you know, I don't know. I like the idea of like listening. I think that's a big takeaway for me from my study of these moods is like, what happens when we turn toward them? We stop being so afraid of them, stop being so ashamed of them and actually like listen to them.

What are they trying to tell us, to do for us, to get us to do, et cetera. Hi, everyone. One of the things that I know many of you struggle with is anxiety. And very recently, I shared some tips on managing anxiety in our newsletter. Specifically, I shared a practice on clarifying your values. In the practice, you write down one or two of your core values and then identify one action step that aligns with them. I find that taking one positive action towards things that matter to me really helps reduce

anxiety. Also, I have a reflection question. What positive experiences have you had today that you could focus on instead of your anxiety? Every Wednesday, I send out a newsletter called A Weekly Bite of Wisdom for a Wiser, Happier You. And in it, I give tips and reflections like you just got. And it's an opportunity for you to pause, reflect, and practice. It's a way to stay focused on what's important and meaningful to you. Each month we focus on a theme. This month's theme is anxiety, and next month we'll be focusing on acceptance. To sign up for these bits of weekly wisdom,

go to goodwolf.me slash newsletter. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really Know Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you

and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Bryan Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park.

Wayne Knight, welcome to Really, No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really, no really. Yeah, really.

No really. Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason Bobblehead. It's called Really, No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. app on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I think that's the other benefit of being on our own side, right? Is to assume not that we're broken, that we're bad, but that the things that we're doing, there's reasons for. And so why? What's happening? You know, Gabor Amate

said it so clearly years and years ago when he said, you know, don't ask why the addiction, ask why the pain, right? And I think that it's a similar idea. And it's not to say that, like, you excuse things that you do while you're an addict because of things that happened to you that caused you pain. That's not it. the right direction to look, right? It's the right direction to look. What's causing me, if I'm wanting to behave a certain way and I'm consistently behaving a different way, it's meeting some needs somewhere, somehow. It makes sense to some part of us, as you said. And what is that? And you have to be on your own side to figure that out. Because if you're not on your own side, then you are in the, I'm awful, I'm bad, I'm broken, I can't get back. I mean, all the permutations of this that make whatever the situation is worse. I mean, addiction is a condition that is shame-driven. I mean, it's part of the engine. If it didn't exist, I'm not saying that nobody would be an addict,

but I think the way out of it might be easier and faster to find. But the shame is the, maybe it's not the engine, it's a fuel that the engine is using. It opens like a fascinating can of worms because I thought of writing my book as like a love letter to those people who are, the way Gloria Anzaldúa put it, excruciatingly alive to the world. And I think a lot of times addicts fall into that. I don't know if all the time or something, but like who out there finds themselves excruciatingly alive to the world such that a lot of things hurt us, right? People that, you know, are called sensitive and like forget mental illness. Just the very idea that calling someone sensitive is an insult shapes the way we're going to feel about ourselves, right? Oh, you wear your heart on your

sleeve. What's wrong with you? Why do you cry at everything? And then those voices get inside of us and we do it to ourselves. The can of worms that I've never really thought about is like, what would come of addiction, the sort of need to turn to harmful substances if our society had more night vision? If our society could give us a break, could have half bad days, could like not expect so much production and positivity out of us, but could just lower the bar on like what a person could be expected to do or to be or to feel or whatever. And that way, those of us who are excruciatingly alive to the world, maybe wouldn't have to numb it in one thing or another.

Like if to be sensitive were a compliment to somebody, I'd like to imagine other worlds, because that's the only way I can do this. Because that's why I'm not a social scientist is because I can't do studies on this. There's so many things that it's like, well, what about before the time? Or what if we lived in a totally different world? And it's like, you can't study what already is because we're already influenced by the way society talks about us. But I wonder, you know, like, what would it look like if we didn't feel like we had to run to something else because the world is so like, it's so bright. I always think of the metaphor because I live in South Texas. Like it's so bright. People in South Texas know you need shade. You need a tree. You need a cave. It's maybe only people who don't, who just

want eternal sunshine all the time. And you're just going to get burned all the time. Like there's no way to live in that space of all light. And so what do we do when we need shade? Like there's something so beautiful about being able to be in the shade together, being able to express or experience a dark mood with somebody else. But because so many people that love us are not very good emotionally with us, like they don't know how to handle us and they want us to get over it. And they're very loving. And they say, you know, no, you're beautiful. Don't feel that way. You shouldn't feel that way. You have everything to live for it, right? Just kind of like rejection, rejection, rejection,

because it's making them so uncomfortable what we're saying. What would happen if we could learn to sit with each other in the dark and not try to just shed light on someone else's situation, you know, just like allow us to all be a little bit more for me, like more human. And that's what the existentialist does for me is like, makes me feel like my level of humanity is just right. Like I'm not too dark. I'm not too much. I'm not too sensitive. I'm not like, this is actually just what it means. You said you were taking care of parents earlier and my parents both died last year. It influenced me so much. Like I'm not broken because my mother's dying. I'm not falling apart. I'm in extreme pain, right? But it's also poignant and like it has so many dimensions to it. And if we just write it off,

like breaking down, we're not going to get to the heart of it, that it's like multi-layered and complex and so beautiful and also just like absolutely agonizing. But that's what the human life is. And I think if we could like connect on that level of like hold each other's hand while we're suffering rather than run away or try to make it better or don't cry or anything like that. If we could stop being so allergic to it or anemic, or there's lots of metaphors about people and emotional intelligence. But I think if we could just get more real with each other sooner and not present such a, oh, I'm fine.

I'm good. I'm doing great or whatever. I would be more comfortable. I was much more comfortable in the world of COVID and lockdown when everyone got on Zoom and we're like, oh, yeah, it's terrible. Oh, not doing so good. Like everyone was allowed to have that time in the shade and just to be upset. And I actually felt happier because I felt like I wasn't the oddball. Like I didn't have to hide everything I was truly feeling like everyone was just able to like,

be emotionally honest with each other. And I was like, and then when it ended, and people started going back to like the small talk, the stuff that for me felt fake, I was like, oh, that's over that window will never come back again. And like, it's a weird thing for those of us who sort of felt more seen during that time. We'll never say never. We've sort of talked about this, but this sentence just leapt out at me. And it was when platitudes do not pull us out of pain, they can plunge us deeper into loneliness. And I've been thinking a lot about what happens to the people. I was thinking about it in recovery circles, right? Because a big part of what happens at a lot of recovery meetings of doesn't even have to be 12 step, right? But there's a testimonial element to it,

which is you addressed it a little bit earlier with certain self help authors, which is that I had this problem, I did x, y, and z. Now I don't have that problem. And I can show you how to do that. And that thinking saved my life, right? Like in a in a 12 step program, right? Like I needed that. But I've been thinking more about what about the people where that doesn't solve the problem? And I'm not saying that all that stuff is platitudes. I mean, obviously a platitude is different than a recovery fellowship, but it's the same general idea, which is when someone gives us a piece of advice or a platitude or a way forward, and that doesn't solve the problem. Like you said,

I think that can plunge us deeper into loneliness. Yeah. So there's a humbling aspect to this book in that some people like the platitudes. So I was reading Cicero, and he said, because he lost his daughter, and it absolutely crushed him. And he said that he really loved it when other people talked about losing their daughters and their family. And I thought, oh, wow, some people like that. The way that I feel about the world isn't the way that everyone feels about the world. And so some people kind of want, like you said, like it saved your life to believe this thing, right? Like for me, it's got this underbelly of what about the others? What about the others? What

about the others, right? What about the people it doesn't work for if you just keep saying this thing works, this thing works, you know, it can be super tricky. So one is that everyone's individual, but I have found that a lot of people don't want to be told that they're strong, right? Like, I think that especially women, especially women of color, if you say something, you know, is going on, it's really common for people to tell us, well, you're so strong, you're going to get through this. And it's like, well, that's not what I was asking for, right? Like what that does is it actually shuts the door or you're so beautiful.

How can you say that, right? These are no's and they shut the door. And what that does is then make me aware, oh, I can't talk to you about that. I can't tell you the real feeling because you're not comfortable with it. You're going to like shove it back to me in some platitude or in some way that you're trying to make me feel better, but you're super clumsy at it. Like you don't really know how to do it. So you are trying to give me some words of encouragement or something, affirmations or whatever. And it, for me, it definitely doesn't work. So then what happens is then I either go into myself and I have two choices after that. I can either just stop talking to you because I know you don't get it or I can fake it and I can pretend that I'm happy. I letting your actual raw self out because it's not going to be received well. And so I don't

want any of those options, right? Like I want to change the world rather than change myself to be like, well, how am I going to get less hurt? Well, I guess I won't trust this person. I won't tell that person. I'd rather fill in the other people on kind of like, well, what is going wrong? Like, I love my friend so much. And I'm always trying to tell her how beautiful she is. And I'm always trying to raise her up. And I'm always trying to give her all these positive things, but it doesn't work. And I don't understand, like, for the person who is really trying to do that in this very loving way. My recommendation is like, okay, try to flip it. Maybe that's not what they want or need. Maybe you're making them feel lonely, or that if they don't rise to that occasion, like

if you haven't made them feel better, then you feel like a failure, but they also feel like responsible now for your feelings. And so what if you dim the lights? What if you go in there with them, go in the cave? You don't have to, you're not responsible for cheering anyone up. Like probably, or if it's not going well, try a new tactic, like use all that energy you've been using and just like switch it, switch the mode to like, just sit there with them. Maybe bring them a movie. Maybe it's not about words. A lot of people are obsessed with like,

what are the right words, especially in grief. What should I say? And it's like, well, maybe it's not about words. Maybe it's just really about your presence and about your non-demanding presence. You don't demand that they be okay around you. You don't demand that they even want your presence or anything like this. But just kind of, I want to help people feel less lonely, like the suffering among us, I want to help feel less lonely by trying to draw attention to the way in which the so called like consolers sometimes get it wrong, even if they have the best of intentions. They get it wrong, because they're feeling the best of intentions, they get it wrong because they're feeling so uncomfortable and they want it to go away. But in fact, we feel like then

they're trashing us instead of just like it's not working and it also makes us feel worse. So I feel like just like, I don't know, pointing these things out, I think can be quite helpful. I think there's actually a third option that people do when they share their emotion with someone and it isn't met. And you talk about this in the book when you talk about first order anger and second order anger. I actually think there's a variation of this in that, which is I escalate my un-okayness to get your attention. You didn't hear me when I said it like that so I'm going to double down on it because you're not hearing it and while that may get your attention it's also doing something inside me right it's escalating it inside myself and so it is problematic in that way

also because I mean I just have noticed this enough in different relationships in my life that if I meet somebody where they are emotionally, everybody just sort of settles down. But if I am like, well, you know, maybe you should or you could or you, you know, I'm a fixer by nature. It's almost like, no, you're really not getting this, man. I'm not just a little bit bad. I'm terrible. Right. And then after that, it's I'm horrible. And I mean, so I think, yeah, that also happens. Yeah. That reminds me of this term, help rejecting complainer, which is not exactly what you're talking about, but I think it was like in the 80s or even before that, I can't remember who came up with this term, but it was like when the person, you know, just refuses your help, you try you you suggest x y and z and that person is just a real you know it's like pathologizing the person who is rejecting all these platitudes and i feel like today in 2024 i'm like laughing at this notion because it is so clearly biased toward the helper like that helping is the correct thing and like those people just

want to be negative and so in 2024 like i'd to rewrite that. I'd like to like save all those people who got that. It's not a diagnosis, but got that label on them of like, you're just a helper. It's like, well, no, you're doing it wrong. Right? Like, like, when are we actually going to realize like, if people are responding badly to us or escalating or doing something like, yes, it might be them. It always might. There's no like hard and fast rules about, you know, who's doing what, when, or which anger is okay and which one isn't, but it deserves like attention, right? It's like, if that person seems to be needing more attention or getting more, whatever with me escalating, maybe it's something that I'm doing that is not working for them. And my energy would be better put into just like sitting there. I

actually think that all the people who think that they need to cheer people up will be relieved to know that our job is never to cheer anybody up. Just don't think that we have the responsibility to cheer anyone up because we can't. And so many times it backfires, it makes them in a worse spot. So I just think we're just here to accompany each other. Like the people we love, we're just here to be together. We're just here to like maybe cry together. Like we don't have to fix other people's problems. Like, so I think that the job of being a friend or a loved one is actually easier than we think it is. Cause we don't have the responsibility to like, at the end of this conversation, they're going to feel better. Like, Oh, that's way out of our control, especially when

it comes to grief, which is just not something that is within our power. Like, yeah, we just let each other be human and say it's perfectly normal to be human. Like, that's good. Yeah, I'm here. I'm here. Mr. Rogers said it really nicely. He said, a lot of times when we say to people, don't cry, what it means is I'm too uncomfortable with you. So please stop. And the world that I want to live in, I'm paraphrasing him, is where the person would say, go ahead and cry. And I'll still be here. I'll just, I'll just be here with you while you're crying, right? Like, it doesn't take much. It just takes not a rejection. So if the immediate feeling is like, no, no, don't think that don't say that. Don't believe that. It's like, Oh, how about yes. Oh, you feel too old for that job. Tell me about it. Like, you're not going to change

a person's feeling about themselves just by telling them they're beautiful. Like you're battling something that they can't even get out of, right? So you're not going to convince them that they're beautiful. Like, it's like, oh, tell me about that. Like, let it be heard. You know, I think that's the only thing is like, we want to like see each other and accompany each other. We don't need to worry about cheering each other up. Well, I think that is a beautiful place for us to wrap up. You and I are going to continue in the post-show conversation. We're going to keep on this thread a little bit, and I'm going to ask some questions about, well, is it ever our job to offer help and in what circumstances? There's a conversation in the book that you referenced just for a second there, which is

about a middle-aged woman going back into the workforce and the way her husband and son responded. And I had all kinds of emotions through that whole story. So you and I are going to talk about that in the post-show conversation. Listeners, you can get access to that, add free episodes, and become part of our community at oneufeed.net slash join. Thank you so much, Mariana, for coming on. I really, really enjoyed the book.

I've really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you. It was so nice to talk to you. And you're a wonderful host. Soiana, for coming on. I really, really enjoyed the book. I've really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you. It was so nice to talk to you. And you're a wonderful host. So thank you for being kind. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a monthly donation to support the One You Feed podcast. When you join our membership community with this monthly pledge, you get lots of exclusive members-only benefits. It's our way of saying thank you for your support.

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