The One You Feed - How We Can Transform Our Inner Dialogue to Heal and Connect with Kimi Culp

Episode Date: December 20, 2024

In this episode, Kimmy Culp explores how we can transform our inner dialogue to heal and connect. The discussion includes the complexities of mental health, personal identity, and the power of self-talk. Kimi also shares her journey with bipolar disorder as she emphasizes the importance of community, shared experiences, and the healing power of recognizing one’s struggles. Key Takeaways: Exploration of mental health and personal identity The impact of self-talk on well-being The importance of community and shared experiences in healing The complexities of labels and identity in relation to mental health The concept of comparative suffering and its implications The role of gratitude in mental health and healing The significance of authenticity and vulnerability in relationships For full show notes, click here! Connect with the show: Follow us on YouTube: @TheOneYouFeedPod Subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify Follow us on Instagram See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey friends, it's Eric. Let's talk about something hard. How many times have you made a promise to yourself and broken it? You said you'd go to bed earlier, start exercising, or stop reaching for that late night snack. But when the moment of choice came, something pulled you in the wrong direction. Those moments, those choice points are where everything happens. And when we keep failing at them, it doesn't just derail our goals, it chips away at something deeper, our trust in ourselves. But it doesn't have to stay that way. In my upcoming free workshop, The Six Saboteurs of Self-Control, we'll explore what happens at these choice points, why they're so hard to navigate, and most importantly,

how to approach them differently. This isn't about willpower or trying harder. It's about understanding the hidden forces that lead to making the wrong choices and learning the tools to rebuild your confidence one choice at a time. Imagine trusting yourself again, knowing that when you say you'll do something, you actually follow through. That's what this workshop is about. Join me and let's turn your choice points into moments of strength. Go to goodwolf.me slash self-control. That's goodwolf.me slash self-control to register for this free workshop. to register for this free workshop. I think so often when we're looking outward, whether we're judging or comparing or whichever end of the spectrum we're looking at, it's all just so often a mirror of ourselves. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like, garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us.

We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. Thank you. keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor. What's in the museum of failure? And does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to reallyknowreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. The Really Know Really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Kimmy Kalp, a TV and film producer and the host of the All the Wiser podcast. As a filmmaker,

television producer, and podcaster, Kimmy has traveled the world interviewing hundreds of people with the intention of inspiring audiences. Today, Kimi and Eric do one of the collaborative interviews that Eric has done before, where they're really not talking about a specific project, but just having a conversation. Hello, Kimi. Hello, Eric. As listeners would have heard, this is a special collaborative episode where I'm not interviewing you, you're not interviewing me, we're just talking. But I am going to start off by asking you a question that I ask all the guests that come on our show, which is about the parable of the two wolves. And in the parable, there's a

grandparent talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops, thinks about it for a second, and looks up at their grandparent and says, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. When I hear you say it and when I read it, it immediately makes me think of inner dialogue and how we speak to ourselves on a daily basis. And then the implications of the ripple effect of that self-view into the world, right? Into anyone and everyone we interact with.

into the world, right? Into anyone and everyone we interact with. So it's a hugely powerful statement that for me clicks immediately and goes to that place immediately of how we talk to ourselves about ourselves. And then the next step is the implication that has in the world for good or for bad. Yeah, I think that's a great place to start, which would be sort of examining the way we talk to ourselves and what our thought processes look like. You know, there was for you a fairly fundamental point where you were able to come forward and be open about your mental illness, bipolar disorder. And I guess I'm wondering, did your internal self-talk, was that shifted much by that actual moment or that was really just sort of a beginning and then it's been, you know, incremental change since then in how you talk to yourself internally? Yeah, thank you.

That's a great question. And I think the answer is that it did shift specific to my mental health and my narrative around that. I don't think all the other really mean horrible voices necessarily change as a result of the sharing of that piece of information, but it certainly changed and shaped the way mean things to say about it to myself before sharing. And in the sharing, it alleviated, I think, a lot of the shame and negative talk around it, put some light and lightness around it for me, for sure. Yeah, I mean, I know for me,

you know, when I started sharing and saying that I was an alcoholic, I would have identified as an addict at that point. It certainly changes a lot of that dialogue, at least for me, because all of a sudden I had a lot of other people saying, yeah, me too. Yeah, me too. Yeah, me too. And that idea that like lots of other people share this was really powerful. I remember reading the Narcotics Anonymous book and this was a while before I got sober. It wasn't like I read this book and suddenly I got sober, but I remember this moment very clearly. And I don't remember a lot very well, but I was reading the Narcotics Anonymous book. And I remember I just was sobbing through the

whole thing because for the first, I heard people articulating what was going on inside of me. And I was seeing like, oh, this is what I have. Oh, these are the symptoms of it. Oh, other people have felt this. It's just there's something about hearing someone else be able to help us articulate our inner world and not be alone. That is so powerful. Yeah. You know, I was thinking about this analogy, which I shared lately, this idea of like being in a classroom, which we've all been, and you have no idea what the F, how it's supposed to work. You don't get it. You know, you're just sitting there like, like, I am so freaking confused.

And the idea of raising your hand and being afraid of what the people around you are going to think or what the person in the front of the room is going to think and asking the question and having like a sea of heads nod and say, me too, I'm confused. And like the relief that comes, it's just this very simple thing of knowing we're not alone. In your recovery with addiction, it sounds like with NA, you said, I'm not alone. It's simple and as complex as that all at once, right? Yeah. And that obviously unfolds in stages. At least for me, there was the initial like, oh, this is what I have. This is what's wrong. But then, you know, when I started actually going into treatment and going to meetings, there's a part of me that was, and I think this is common, was looking to find ways I wasn't like the other people around me, both

because maybe I was hoping to be able to talk myself out of needing to be there. And because, you know, there's some sense of always wanting to be special in my mind. I always needing to be there. And because, you know, there's some sense of always wanting to be special in my mind. I always want to be special. I want to be exceptional. And to say I'm just like the rest of you was difficult for me, but very healing. So would you say you didn't want to identify with them? Like, sometimes there's this not wanting to identify, like, I want to prove to myself like, oh, no, no, no, it's not as bad as that guy or that girl. I have found that with people who are publicly living with bipolar disorder. I want to quickly explain to everyone, but that's not me. That's not me. I'm not, I don't have it that bad. So did you find that in your recovery journey and your recovery story being with, you know, other recovering addicts

that you wanted to separate yourself? You said you did, but I guess I'm curious about digging a little deeper as to the why. Yeah, I think there's a few factors at work. I think one is still feeling my way into, am I really an alcoholic? Am I really an addict? You know, and in that case, I think anybody who's paying any attention is smart enough to know this. I'm not saying that I'm particularly smart. The implication is if I'm an addict or an alcoholic, well, thank you. If I'm an addict or an alcoholic, I can't ever use again.

And that is not the answer I'm looking for at this juncture in my life, right? So there's a part of me that's a trying to get help, but there's another part of me that's trying to go, you don't really belong here, man. It's just a knife. Yeah, you can do it. Like, have you thought about doing it this way? You know, so I think the denial inherent in addiction is at work there. I think the other thing is, it's very interesting to watch how we respond when we are thrown into a new group, because we are are social creatures and we are wired to sense out hierarchy almost immediately. And I found when I get into a new group situation, I do one of two things. I've gotten much better at this, but it still happens sort of automatically

and I have to work with it, which is that I'm either looking around going, I'm better than them. I'm better than them. I'm better than them, or I'm way worse than them, I'm way worse than them. And it doesn't matter what the criteria is, right? If it's an addiction, it has to do with addiction. If it's at a podcast conference, it's, you know, how many downloads do I have versus how many they have? But groups do that to us. And I think that's one of the reasons that groups can be a particularly potent form of healing is if we recognize that it brings out our insecurity and now I can watch how I react when I feel insecure. And again, for me, it's often alternating within the same five minute window, better than worse than, better than worse than. And so I think that was the other element that had me trying to be different or special.

And I think so often when we're looking outward, whether we're judging or comparing or, you know, not that bad or whichever end of the spectrum we're looking at, it's all just so often a mirror of ourselves, right? Yes. Whether we view it as our lacking or, you know, so often what we desire, right? You see something. And so it is totally fascinating that within groups, I think so much of what we're observing is just a mirror and reflection of our own inner world. 100%. You know, in the spiritual habits programs that we do, we do a lot of group work. And I find it a really good opportunity to say what you and

I just said to people ahead of time, like watch what's going to happen as you end up in this group, because it is a great reflection of your inner state and just see how you can notice it and be kind to yourself. Don't be judgmental that you're doing that because every human on the planet does it, but notice it. And then notice, is there a different way you can maybe respond? You know, can you respond in a way that is kinder to yourself or is kinder to the people around you? You know, I think seeing it can be really powerful. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, when we were talking earlier, we were talking about identifying the good and the bad of labels. They can be of value and helpful. I think there's times when they can be harmful

for different reasons. So you and I both, I think, started our podcast driven by clearly our own personal stories and journeys. So I was curious in recovery, and you mentioned, you know, alcoholism and addiction all these years later, because how long have you been sober? 15 years of continuous sobriety this time, and I had eight years right before that. So, you know, 23 years, more or less. Most of my adult life. Yeah. So most of your adult life. And how much do you personally identify with those labels? Yeah. That's been a journey that has been unfolding. But I identify as an alcoholic.

Yeah. And an addict. Now, whether I would put ex-alcoholic or ex-addict in front of it, I don't know. I just don't. You know, I came up in 12-step traditions. In 12-step traditions, that's just what, you know, hi, I'm Eric. I'm an alcoholic, right? Yeah. Or hi, I'm Eric. I'm an addict.

So on a broad sense, I identify with those terms still. And to me, what they mean is I can't drink or use drugs safely. So it's almost a reminder of that past self? Yeah. It's a reminder just that those things have not worked out for me historically and that it's not a good idea. Now, where I ran into a problem in 12-step programs and is one of the things that led me to be much less involved than I used to be is that oftentimes that term alcoholic

or addict ends up getting a lot of other stuff thrown on top of it that it means. And, you know, it means we're different than most people. It means that we are particularly damaged in some way. It means that we have a bad character. I mean, there's a lot of different things, even within a supportive movement like that, that different groups layer onto that. And that is what I sort of really lost a sense of because I went, you know what? The difference between, say, me and you is maybe you can have a couple drinks successfully and I can't. Right. But beyond that, we're probably very much similar in a thousand different ways.

Right. And I so I stopped seeing myself as being different than other people. You know, like the world as a whole humans as a whole, but I did see myself as different in that regard, almost like, well, you know, if I had a peanut allergy, I can't eat peanuts. Now, that is a an analogy that is a little bit simplistic, but it gets to the heart of it for me. As you're sharing that, I'm thinking that it's really about the labels and the associations that society and culture that we collectively have put around things. Because I guess where I was getting at with that question,

something I've thought about in myself is there's owning the truth of who you are, right? Even the aspects aspects and perhaps most importantly, the aspects that you may have had shame and secrecy around. But then for me, it has been, and that's why I was curious to hear from you, sort of a journey to not have that be the entirety of my identity. I give it so much power,

yet there's like everybody in the world, you and every human being, we're layered, we're dynamic, we're lots of things. And going back to what we feed, I feel like I was so caught up on the pieces of myself, my body, my being, my chemistry that I deemed damaged versus the other pieces that, you know, are often thriving or really working well. And that's just interesting to me, I guess. Yeah. And I think there's a natural healing journey that happens, right? So when I went into treatment and recovery from addiction, or when you were newly diagnosed as bipolar, right? There is a moment where that identity takes a little bit more of a prominent center stage role.

And it's appropriate that it does, right? For a couple different reasons. A, for me, I was dying and I needed to really give that identity a lot of attention and care and love. It's also that at that moment, given where addiction took me, I wasn't much else anymore, right? I was a homeless heroin addict that was spending my time either doing drugs or stealing to get drugs. I mean, there wasn't much else to identify with at that point, right? But as I naturally got better, and as I got healthier, and as my life

expanded, there was more and more and more and more of me to identify with. And that idea of myself as an addict took on less and less and less and less area of importance. To the point that the only reason I think it's particularly important to me now is just simply to remember, don't do that again. Because I've tried it again after being sober and it didn't work. So that's the reminder to me is, you know, don't do that. It's destructive for you, but that's about all there is to it at this point. Now you and I talked a little bit, and I think I'd love to hear some of your thoughts on this also, you know, we talked about depression and I think that's one that there's even a more

nuanced one for me and one that I'm more in the middle of sorting out than I am alcoholic or addict. But first, I'd love to kind of hear what you think about how your identity or label as someone who has bipolar has shifted over time for you. Well, I'll answer that. But first, thank you for that answer for myself and for everyone listening, because I think it's a really good one

that what I heard you say is the more healing and attention at that time desperately needed healing and attention for you, the more important it was to focus on that piece of your identity. And that over time, as you grew and all these other and healed, which was like, what led me to my question, all these years later, how do you identify? And I think that's beautifully put that there was a reason for the strong identity and association. And with time and healing that sort of dissipates, yet it still lives within you, right? It's still part of your story. So yeah, we talked about depression. And I know you said you had a hard time sometimes identifying or explaining yourself, articulating that process for you and that emotion and feeling and way of being for you, I guess would probably be the right description. So I mean, my experience with

depression, I have lived with a lot more hypomania and anxiety being very ever-present versus periods of some people with bipolar, including people in my family, go through really incredibly painful depressive states to watch and witness. And I have had a few in my life that have been crippling, but I feel much more so it's a battle and a dance with low-grade depression. So it's not, I'm not functioning, I can't get out of, which I think probably a lot of people can relate to. It is this dark heaviness for what feels like no reason based on the circumstances of your life. And, you know, sad seems like such a wimpy word to describe it, but it's hard to articulate what it feels like. And as I've often said, and I'm sure this is something you can relate to, I tend to layer shame upon that because I feel like I have a pretty good life, right? I have meaningful relationships. I

have work and family that I love. So yeah, it's hard to explain other than you're in emotional pain and it's really tricky and hard to get out of. That describes my experience with depression. I had depression earlier in life where it felt debilitating at points. This is post getting sober. But over the years, it has become, as you would say, I would describe it much more as a low grade thing. And what I often wonder about is, is it depression? Is it just part of the way my personality and my mind and I work? Am I just melancholic? Right? That's what they would have described. You know, some people have a melancholic temperament, they say, I think that's me. And so where I have been, you know, over the last number of years,

is trying to balance using a word like I have depression, balance the benefit of using a label like that versus the downside. So the benefit to it is to say, this thing happens to me. I know that it happens. Here's the ways that I know how to treat it. Here's how I can work with it. I can be kinder to myself, perhaps when it's happening, I can not make a big deal out of it. The world seems like it doesn't mean anything today, but that's just not because the world doesn't mean anything. It's just because that's how you get time to time. And so relax. Like that's enormously helpful, right? The counter that I've started to really look at is by calling it depression, am I taking some sort of normal range of human functioning? Am I labeling it in a way that either causes it to amplify or stick around or am I feeding it in some way by giving myself that diagnosis? And I don't know the answer. Like I said, I'm still kind of working with it. And it's not a hugely important question for me right now because I think I hold it very lightly. But it's just little things like lately I've really been, this is probably the last year, I've really been exploring the idea of am I depressed or am I just tired? Because you know what, for me, they feel very, very similar. But tired is just, I'm tired, go to bed, Eric. Depressed is a bigger problem, right? It causes a little bit more like, well, I need to do something about that. Right. Whereas tired, you just go, I'll just go to bed. And so, again, that's where depression has been more of a nuanced element of that diagnosis. And, you know, do I still have it? Do I not have it? How do I talk about it? What are the ways to engage with that label that give me the benefit of having a label, but minimize the downsides of having a label, which is that we start to live sometimes into our expectations. Yeah, it's hard. You know, it's you're

talking about depression and how it presents and shows up for you. I was thinking that for me, always an indicator is I feel incredibly empty and lonely. And when I know that it's depression is that I feel incredibly empty and lonely while in connection with other people. So I can be in a room with people that I love that light me up and that connection is not firing, right? I'm sitting there and so it is hard that distinction between there are days for everyone on the planet where it's hard to be a freaking human and the outlook is depressing or you're feeling melancholy and it's nuanced, right? But it can be helpful to give language to anything, right? To just simply state, at least I know what this is, right? But, you know, and it's interesting, I'm a mom of young

kids. And often, people are, you know, what the world tells them, they are certainly in the parental, you know, if you're constantly saying, you know, well, you're the athletic one or you're. So I think how we identify in the labels we continually give ourselves, it is a delicate dance, right? So it's times when it's helpful as you can say, I don't need to judge myself because I understand that this is depression and this is what it looks like and how it presents and shows up for me, but not over identifying. Like anything, I think, you know, there's two ways to look at it. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden.

And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you. And the one bringing back the woolly mammoth.

Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Brian Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel

might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really No Really. Yeah, Really No Really. Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So how do you work with, you know, a diagnosis of bipolar to, again, balance the positive aspects of it being a diagnosis, a label, or do you see any negative sides to that identity? How do you work with

this question of identity and your diagnosis? So it's funny because the thing I didn't talk about forever, I now feel like I talk about all the time. I write about it. I talk about it. Everyone's like, God, is she going to talk about, you know, living with bipolar again? But I still, to be honest, have a lot of issues around it, for lack of a better word. So part of me, like I said, liberating, I have a kinder, gentler narrative around, quote unquote, being mentally ill or living with a mental illness is a nicer, kinder way to describe it. But at the same time, like I said, I often want to distance myself to protect myself for people judging me as crazy or unhinged. You know, I can't control how the world experiences that label and that diagnosis. And when I'm openly, you know,

putting it on myself, it feels a little out of control and scary and vulnerable still. And I find myself trying to associate with like historical figures in a positive light. You know, I mean, it's really funny. I'm like, have you read that Winston Churchill may have been bipolar? And then I'll quickly jump to somebody who is, you know, publicly going through something, you know, very exaggerated and particularly maybe harmful and embarrassing and say, oh, no, no, no, but that's not me. So I still have a ton of insecurities and I'm still tripped up by it. and I'm still tripped up by it.

Yet, I get that when I was diagnosed, if I saw somebody, an older woman, living a life that felt meaningful and rich in many ways, who said, I have this thing and I've learned how to manage it and live with it, that would have been hugely valuable and hopeful to me. So it's like I'm walking that tightrope because I think that's probably worth it. Absolutely. I've always tried to err on the side of being more open about addiction, about depression. Again, appropriate. If I have to err

on one side or the other, it's to be more open. And it's largely because I know how valuable it is for me to have heard other people talk about that stuff. So in my professional career, before I did this, I was in the software development industry for a lot of years, and I was fairly open about those things there. And, again, appropriate, I didn't waltz into every meeting, but like, do you know, I used to be a heroin addict, you know. Again, appropriate. I didn't waltz into every meeting, but like, do you know, I used to be a heroin addict, you know? But what was interesting was that over time, I started to find that two things happened. One was over the years, different people would come up to me often much later and be like, Hey, Eric, my brother's really struggling with addiction. You know, what should I do? Or Or yeah, I've been dealing with depression. What did you do? So, you know, some of that, which really helps others. But then I also sort of found it was in some ways a professional superpower. And what I mean by that was so much of the work I did was about getting people to work well together and build good teams and just how does everybody come together? And that level of open sharing often leads to people trusting you. I'm not saying I ever did it for a professional advantage. That is not what I'm saying. And that's probably a bad way to approach it, but that it did turn out to not only be good for others, but I think it in general was good for me in precisely the place I was most afraid that sharing it would be, right? I thought that it would be a liability

and it didn't seem to be. And then of course, in general, for me, it was just good to not be carrying secrets, to just be able to be who I really am. Now more than ever, people just want people to be real. Yeah. And when you're in a conversation or you meet somebody new and the first time they share some piece of themselves that is real or raw or has some depth or weight to it, you know, there's a connection to it. You're like, oh, we had this moment. And so this act, which you're talking about in a more public setting, like in work, which first of all, nobody with a voice like yours should be a software developer. You need to be in front of a microphone. Well, it took me a lot of years, but here we are.

Thank you. It's a really powerful place of human connection. And, you know, now we know there's research and science around it. But I do think it's a little bit superpower. There's some magic to it. I have seen it for sure. Even in just sharing this podcast and being so open, I often see people and I don't know how to explain it other than the way that they interact with me is almost like as if we're closer than reflective of the time we've spent together. But I think it's because they trust me, right? They feel like,

oh yeah, Kimmy tells me everything she trusts. I don't know if you've had that experience. Have you? Oh yeah. Yeah. And there's a lot of studies out there. I've looked a lot into building friendships as adults because loneliness is a real problem in our world. And, you know, throughout my years of coaching people, I've just come across a good number of people who are kind of isolated. And so I've looked into how you build friends as an adult. And there's a lot of research out there that seems to show that to build friendships as adults, it takes a lot of hours of time together. It's why you often become close with people at work. You just have the requisite amount of time. So it takes a lot of time. But I have also found that in certain circumstances, that time can be greatly reduced.

And it does tend to be when people are coming together around a shared human vulnerability. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I made friends with people in 12 step programs way faster than I would outside of them in our spiritual habits programs. Often people come together much more quickly because they're, they're really sharing from the heart. Now, again, this does not mean like show up to your local food bank and tell everybody you have bipolar and hope to make new friends, right? Like, there's a nuance to this, but there is something to be said for in general,

that we can form closer connections when we are being fully authentically ourselves. And when we're connecting around, I guess I'll just use the word vulnerability. I feel like it's an overused word maybe these days. Yeah but we're sharing around a vulnerability or a common issue. It can really accelerate the process of getting close to people. I love that you brought up adult friendships because I think they're so invaluable. They're so important. And it does take time and shared experience and nurturing and effort, which can be hard, right? Whether you're dealing with life and how much time you have, or whether you're dealing with depression

and like, it feels hard enough to freaking get in the shower. Like, do I really have time to call this person planet? So yeah, I'm curious if there's anything else, you know, poignant or, you know, interesting or powerful that you've learned around adult friendships. Well, I mean, I think there's a few things. I'm also curious about male friendships because I think it's so different for men. Well, I am very blessed. I don't have a lot of friends, but I have a good number of very close friends that I have had for a long time. You know, I started this podcast partially because my best friend Chris and I weren't spending much time together, and he's an audio engineer. And so one of my primary motivations was, I'll start this podcast

and we'll have to do something together and I'll see him much more, which turned out to absolutely be a stroke of genius because it has happened deeply. Is he still the engineer? Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. I love that. He's listening right now. Hi, Chris. Hi, Chris. Chris, what can you tell us about friendship? Oh, Chris could tell you a lot. He's a savant of friendships. Actually, Chris and I did a

episode. It's our 500th episode. We were interviewed by my partner, Ginny, who also sometimes does interviews on the show. She interviewed Chris and I all about what friendship is, which was really great because it was so fun to reflect on, you know, 35 years of friendship with somebody. So it's so funny you brought that up because you're not going to necessarily have this experience because of Chris. But when people have asked about podcasting, and there's so many things that I love, the creative process, the people that I meet, but I often described it as very lonely. I realized how much I value collaboration, that I loved working in particular with really smart, creative people, and that everything I had done leading up to podcasting was in some level of collaboration or partnership. And that that energy fed me and I felt I was better as a result. Like literally, I feel more energetic when I'm sitting at a table brainstorming with other. It was a silo and, you know, often I'm

in a closet, like sweating, recording. And so during COVID, my friend Christy, who people who listen to this podcast, it reminds me of you and Chris, I reached out and she has a degree in positive psychology. And I said, we tell these really incredible stories, but I'd love our listeners to be able to take action upon that inspiration. Do you want to start exploring whether we can work together? So I feel like we're still trying to figure that out. But the reason every time we talk about like, is it working? Is it not working? Should we be doing this? We're like, but we talk so much. I mean, the fact is, it reconnected us. And this is my childhood best friend, we would go six months without talking. And now we talk and we are on Voxer. And for both of us being somewhat perfectionist, we hold it so loosely, like the product itself, like whether it works, whether it's quote unquote good enough, because we get to be friends and we get to collaborate and we get to talk about meaningful things and we have a date on the calendar. And so it's been so like personally enriching and it's made the podcast a lot less

lonely for me. So I'm glad you have Chris and I'm glad I've had Christy these past two years. Indeed. And I think we've identified a pattern that I would not have identified before about adult friendship, which is perhaps, you know, one way to do it is to have something that you do together. Yeah. You know, a project, you know, one way that we know adult friendships happen is through volunteering, but only through a particular type of volunteering. And it's the type of volunteering that occurs over and over and over and over again. So a lot of times we will make a volunteer commitment. I'll go to the food bank this over and over and over and over again. So a lot of times we will make a volunteer commitment. I'll go to the food bank this week and volunteer and maybe I'll make some

friends. Right. And we go and we volunteer and we don't make any friends and we go, well, that didn't work. Right. Versus a commitment that said, all right, I'm going to go every Wednesday to the food bank for the next three months, that gives you a really good opportunity to build a friendship because you're going to see the same people over and over. I mean, I probably won't look you in the eye till our third or fourth meeting, right? Like I'm a shy person. Yeah. You know, throw me into a group of people I don't know. And it takes me a little while before I sort of really kind of come out of my shell, unless it's in a state where I'm like the host of the thing. But again, throw me in any random soup kitchen on a Wednesday night

with a bunch of people who know each other and you don't know me, it'll be three or four weeks before I start to really be able to be myself. It just takes me a while. And I think a lot of us are that way. So volunteering is a great way to make friendships, but we want to make sure that the type of volunteering we do is set up so that we have many, many exposures to people over time instead of like, oh, I volunteered to run registration at this 5K.

Like, that's great, but you're not probably going to walk away from that experience with a new friend. I mean, you might, but knowing what we know, it takes time. Yeah. And I think, I don't know that working out would be the good or bad analogy, but you know, if you go to the gym once or twice versus every Tuesday and Thursday after, but I do think those friendships, whether it's you and I have created it through these podcasts, right? There's a point of connection that's on the calendar. But I've often found in the past when my friendships have been really strong, there is some sort of anchoring piece. Like I used to have a friend and every Friday morning we walked. Like it just, we were set up for connection and success because we had woven each other into

that. So yeah, whether it's every Sunday night you go to the same Chinese restaurant or, you know, that repetition, being proactive and intentional about, I need to feel like I have more deep and meaningful friendships. And this is a path to that, right? And finding a shared experience that both people enjoy. And you just hit on a really important behavioral principle. Like I work a lot on, you know, how do we change our behaviors? And the general behavioral principle is separate decision from action, meaning whatever it is you want to do, you got to plan ahead for it and set it up. But what you gave was a particularly great example where you basically make a decision every Friday this happens. So I don't have to keep re-deciding when I'm going to see Chris. Yeah. It's every Friday. Now, of course, not every Friday happens. I'm traveling. We don't do it. Of course, yeah. But the rule is we're together.

Yeah. Instead of us having to figure out when we're going to get together over and over, right? Now we only have to figure out when we won't get together, right? So it's structured in such a way that it's more likely to happen. And so much of behavior in life does come down to environment and structure. And so that's a really smart way to structure that friendship element. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like

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Plus, does Tom cruise really do his own stunts his stuntman reveals the answer and you never know who's going to drop by mr brian kranson is with us how are you hello my friend wayne knight about jurassic park wayne knight welcome to really no really sir bless you all hello newman and you never know when howie mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really? No, really. Yeah, really.

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All right. you get your podcasts. All right. So I love that. I'm going to shift us now from a Friday coffee date with Chris to comparative suffering. Chris's life is way worse than mine. Let's just compare ourselves to Chris and we're going to feel so much better about ourselves. 99 out of 100 people are going to pick my life over Chris's. So let's just, I'm sorry, Chris. We love you, Chris. We do. So you and I were both clearly drawn to some extent to understanding and being curious about suffering and what that looks like for people. I certainly become very aware if you go back and look at the history of people I've interviewed, that's certainly indicative. But this notion of comparative suffering is something that

I have learned through the podcast, and particular an interview I did with Dr. Edith Eger. Have you had her on your podcast? I have, yes. I mean, wow. I don't know if you are as obsessed as I am, but. You know what amazed me about her? I mean, she's a very old woman. Yes. Right? And so we'd be talking and I'd ask her a question and she'd start to answer and she would just kind of wander off. Yeah.

Mentally. And I thought, well, she's just lost the thread. She's an old lady. She's. Yeah. So she's wandering around sort of doing this. And then she just comes right back around and totally sticks the landing. I'm like, she was with me the entire time. I just couldn't follow her. Wow. Yeah. I've had the

same experience. And I'm thinking like, okay, what is like the tech check situation going to be having a 94 year old guest? Like I was just not convinced that it was going to be smooth, you know, getting on and the mic checks and audio. Granted, she has really incredible people who work with her. Yeah. But I mean, she is significantly more savvy than, you know, 40 year olds, I know. I mean, she's pretty darn impressive. For those of you who have not listened, I hope you will listen to Eric's interview or my interview or both with Dr. Edie Eager, Dr. Edie, who is a 94-year-old Holocaust survivor who published her first memoir at 90.

But a big thing she talks about and she really introduced me to is this notion of comparative suffering. And it's been really interesting for me in particular, because the stories on my podcast, All the Wiser, are so often unthinkable, harrowing, you know, so people will say, oh, thank you so much for your podcast. It's really put it in perspective. Like, I shouldn't be that upset that my husband left me and I'm going through a divorce. Well, what Dr. Edie would say is, you should absolutely, your pain is real. Your suffering has nothing to do with the fact that the Holocaust happened and I suffered. And so she's really into that that is not the point or that it's helpful to anyone, right? When we compare our suffering, but instead to honor it, regardless of what that

suffering looks like, because it's all real, right? And there isn't healing or a path forward without that first step of just honoring that your thing is really hard and that you're in it. And so as somebody who endured the greatest hell on earth, right, can you imagine something that is more steep and the deepest of suffering? And she's giving permission and validating everyone around her that their pain is real and it deserves to be seen and it deserves to be heard and they deserve to honor it so they can move through it. I just thought it was really beautiful of her and illuminating and helpful for me to understand what comparative suffering is. Yeah, that's a pretty remarkable thing coming from her. To me, this is a little bit like the concept of labels and identity, meaning that there's a fair amount of nuance in the conversation and there's a fair amount of you can use these things in helpful or harmful ways. And so the harmful way that

comparative suffering shows up is I go, yes, my wife left me, but I'm not in Ukraine. So Eric, quit being a little baby and get over it. Yeah. Right. That's using comparative suffering in a really damaging way. And I won't heal from that divorce. Yeah. Right. And I will perpetuate that pain on down throughout the world. Right. That's the negative use of it.

I do think there is a place. For perspective. But again, it's nuanced for perspective. Exactly. There is a place to say, you know what? I do have a lot of great things in my life. You know, I do have a lot of benefit. And so the way I look at this, and maybe we're sort of straying out of comparative suffering, but this is how I sort of think about it, is that my goal is not to eliminate, despite the parable

of the wolves, my goal is not to eliminate either the positive or the negative from my life, right? It's to say, if there are bad things happening, acknowledge them, work with them, heal them, but don't lose sight of the fact that there's also lots and lots of blessings. Both those things can be true at the same time. And sort of like when I said, you know, early on for me in addiction, the focus really had to be on me as an addict and healing that because that's what was present. When we're in the midst of a great deal of suffering, I think the right orientation generally is tend to your pain, work with it, heal it. Don't keep trying to minimize it away by saying,

oh, well, I've got all these other good things and not to get stuck in that, right? Because I can get stuck in a place where nothing is good enough no matter what I do. I could not agree more. And it's this notion of both and, right? That both things are incredibly true and incredibly powerful. And so you're not minimizing your pain and suffering or anyone else's. That's right. Yes. And also, again, cliche, try and be careful when I say, oh my gosh, this word is overused or this cliche, because I do try and remind myself that probably not everyone is as immersed as we are in this particular content, right? It's like, we're drawn to this work. But so what I heard you say is, when you said, you know, there's this other

piece that is helpful, what it made me think of is the gratitude is where I'm getting at, which is saying this is gratitude practice, you may have heard it, you may be like, whatever, I know I'm supposed to be thankful. Man, is that a powerful tool. It works for me. And like, again, going back to this depressive, low-grade depression, feelings of emptiness or loneliness, if I actively do it, and not just one thing, but why, I am grateful for my husband being present with my daughter so I could, you know, just getting really specific in your gratitude. Yes. That for me was a big jump just from writing down a thing, but then understanding why it

had a deeply positive impact and just some of the minutia, the small stuff, not just like the friendly checkout person, but like I was in a really bad mood and she smiled at me and it made just writing it down and like the gratitude, it works. It really works. And so maybe that's, I'm just reflecting back to you what I heard you say, which is honor the suffering, but also kind of looking around and being grateful for what's working, even if that's just really small stuff and diving into fully understanding the large impact of those things that seem small. Yeah, I could go deep down a gratitude rabbit hole, which I'm not sure we want to do just yet. I just taught a weekend workshop at Omega Institute in

New York, and there were two topics, hope and gratitude. And Dr. Eager made an appearance, not in person. I mean, I use some of her words as a teaching point. So I don't want to go too far down that rabbit hole just yet. Let's come back to comparative suffering and maybe talk about how does it show up in your life? What are the ways that comparative suffering shows up in the unhealthy way that we've talked about it being. I'm not a person who I feel like minimizes other people's suffering a lot. Even my kids, I know some people will be like, well, that's dumb. It's 12-year-old girl stuff. I don't think that I minimize other people's suffering. I think I have a lot of empathy and compassion around mostly all suffering. It shows up for me personally and

feeling shame around my suffering that it is not enough or it is somehow wrong. Like what's wrong with you? You have so much, you have so much privilege. Like what to say that you're suffering, really? So I think that I compare my own pain and suffering and feel ashamed of having it in comparison to other people's suffering that mine doesn't feel particularly valid, if that makes sense. Yeah. So you honor it in other people and tend to think you shouldn't have it. As you were just talking, I thought about the extremes of human experience are often helpful teaching tools, right? That's some of what you're doing on your show, right? You are bringing in extremes of human experience for what they have to teach all of us. And Holocaust survivors

like Dr. Eger or Elie Wies or victor frankel they're inspiring because it's such an extreme thing and then thought of another extreme example that shows sort of the comparative suffering element and it is really rich and famous and successful people who kill themselves yeah right like you know robin williams came to mind right and he's a little bit more complex because of some of the brain injury stuff he might have been having. But the point being, we can know that everybody's suffering is equal because we can take somebody who has all the privilege in the world at that point, all the money, all the fame, and they suffer so badly they kill themselves. Right. You look at Anthony Bourdain. You look at Kate Spade. I mean, yeah. I read a statistic recently, and I don't know if it's true, but let's pretend it's directionally true, because I'm sure it's in the neighborhood of being true. The more wealthy and safe and prosperous your zip code is, the more likely

you are to kill yourself. Yeah, that doesn't surprise me. That's startling. You know, I mean, it does speak to that all types of suffering are really real and meaningful. Do they say why? Or is there any sort of clarity? No, I think that there's a variety. I don't think anybody fully knows, right? In the same way that we don't fully know, like, why does it appear that depression and anxiety rates are going up so much?

Is it that really depression and anxiety is going up? Is it that we report it better? Is there something about the modern Western ways of living? I think everybody's got theories on it, right? And my theory tends to be like the great song by the band Dawes is that it's a little bit of everything. Yeah true one, a little bit of everything. Yeah. But comparative suffering may have a role. And now I'm firmly in speculation. I always like to be clear when I'm just making things up. So now I'm just making something up or speculating, which would be, I wonder if in the wealthier zip codes, the comparative suffering issue manifests in that there is an element of that extra layer

of shame that you talked about, which is like, I'm doing so well. I am fortunate. I am lucky. And yet I still feel so miserable. I must really be broken. Well, I mean, it's a larger issue, right? With stigma and what we have said historically about mental illness and like, pull yourself up by your boot, you know, get over it and not treating it what it is, right? Which is brain health, like, regardless of where you are socioeconomically or where you're living, if you have cancer, you have cancer, right? And so I think with mental health, the fact that somehow there is shame, right? I shouldn't be feeling this way.

And as we know, shame leads to getting help and treatment and it leads to the help that comes from healing and connecting with people around you by virtue of sharing because you don't share when you're ashamed. So when you say it's a little bit of this and that, it makes sense to me. And a lot of these illnesses like bipolar, frankly, can be a very fatal illness. People die from it.

Yes. You know, commonly. But because it's a mental illness, it's trickier for sure. I guess maybe the message would be if you're suffering, really suffering, get some help. Find ways to not suffer alone so much. Because I think that's a big part of both you and I's story is, let's end the secrecy, let's end the shame, and let's, you know, move into communion with others around these things. Amen, brother. Amen. So we're nearly out of time. And there are many weighty topics that we could talk about. We could talk about them all day and we have been.

But I would be completely remiss in my duties to my own heart if I did not bring up a book or a series of books that you have been a participant of called A Letter to My Dog. Dogs are so incredibly healing to me. I think I learned how to love much better from a dog named Sadie. Tell me a little bit about that book and why you did that. Yeah. So my maiden name is Davidson and I grew up with a dog named Harley, Harley Davidson. So I did not have a dog when I did A Letter to My Dog. I had just left working for Oprah Winfrey for the show and then for the network. There is a huge amount of dog lovers in that world. And I had worked on a personal project for her for the 25th anniversary of her show. It was a book. On my way out, you know, going to my

next chapter, I was at a big dinner and this really accomplished photographer, who's also in particular known for her photographs of animals and dogs, is at the table. A book publisher is at the table. One of my bosses, who's a huge dog person, and I was a producer, like I oversaw and executed. And we, you know, breaking bread, drinking wine was like, we should do a book about dogs. And we're like, how could it be different? We're like, what if people wrote letters to their dogs and was called, and I was like, we could get kindergarten classes and we could launch a blog and we could get famous people. So that's what we did. We spent three years and it was like we poured our hearts into this. We had competitions in schools. We had Tony Bennett writing letters and Robin traveled around the country photographing the dogs. And I was in charge of finding all the letters and the stories. stories. And we published this book, A Letter to My Dog. And, you know, it's in paper source and anthropology. And we went to Costco and did book signings. And we would like be next to the

guy with the hot dogs and everyone would want the free food and not our book. And it was a total journey. But now I do have a dog who I love madly. Waffles is our dog. And that is a great dog name. Yes. Thank you, Waffles. The next thing I'm going to say is not a joke, but Waffles is currently filming a music video with Beyonce. You're serious. I am 100% serious.

And so we already know I'm a little crazy. But just so you know, I'm not a doggy agent mom. Our dog Walker works on sets, training animals on sets and asked if waffles could participate in that. She needed a dog, but it ends up it's with Beyonce. So he's been with Beyonce for the past week. That is absolutely incredible. I am so glad I chose to go down this line of thinking. Does it bother you that you've been spending, you know, your entire adult life in the entertainment industry was like saying, like, I'm like, he has so much information and he can't tell us. I'm like, is she good to her people? Like, was Jay there? Like, what was she wearing? Spill it, Waffles. Spill it. And I'm just looking at him. I'm like, you were just with Beyonce and you can't give me any information.

and you can't give me any information. Yes, so a little bit of a tangent, but hopefully an entertaining one, literally. And the healing power of dogs and the joy factor, I feel like bringing a dog into our lives sparks so much joy and silliness and spontaneity that just would not exist. I think it's been great for relationships because walking the dog, sometimes when we can get two of the people, it's helped us be closer with one another in that way. And waffles is the point of connection.

And, you know, I think I told you this, my one daughter, probably a lot like me, is pretty sensitive to the world. And it is if he knows, like before I see it, maybe even before she feels it, we'll go and just crawl up and love on her because it's like he can sense that she's gonna need comforting. They're really, really powerful beings.

And so, yeah, I'm so glad you brought it up. And I am curious about your dog. You mentioned that he can't walk on his back legs. And I heard you talking to him off mic and just the sweetest, most tender voice. So yeah, I'd love to hear from you. Yeah, it's Beansy. It's a girl. She's an old Boston Terrier. Yeah, it's Beansy. It's a girl. She's an old Boston Terrier. And I think we are probably within a few weeks of her time, her time coming. So sorry, Eric. Yeah, yeah, it's tough. Talk about silliness and joy. I mean, she is just a clown and she has been a clown for 13 years. But yeah, she's got a degenerative disorder in her back legs and they've just been, you know, slowly failing and failing and she's just not doing good. So yeah, it's a little bit sad, but you know, the thing with a dog I have found is there's a simplicity to a relationship with a dog, right? The simplicity of love, the simplicity of joy. And even when they go, there's a simplicity of grief.

Yeah. Interesting. And what I mean by that is like, I had two previous dogs in my adult life and they both passed and they passed within like nine months of each other. And the second one, Ralph went early. He went from cancer, you know, and there was a part of me that started to go like, well, it's not fair. Yeah. You know, I just lost Sadie and Ralph's young. But I just realized like, well, animals get sick, they get old, they pass, you know. So I didn't have a quarrel with the universe. And by not having a quarrel with the universe over it, I was able just to fully grieve it. It was just this absolutely clean, searing, extraordinarily painful and powerful grief, but it just felt so simple and elemental. I would only hurt that much because I loved something that much. You know, like what a gift to have had something that meant that much to me for that long. Like what a gift. And again,

this isn't to minimize the grief. I felt all the grief, but in it, I recognized a great love. So there was something really spiritual in that to me in the way that I use the word spiritual, not otherworldly, but deeply meaningful. And so with beans, I mean, I'm, you know, same sort of thing. I feel like I'm carrying a high degree of weight around it, just sadness, but she's had a wonderful, good, long life and we've been very happy. And so we'll see her off in a beautiful way. Thank you for sharing that. And I'm so happy that she brought you the joy and the love that she did. And I think that's so beautifully put about, you know, the brave act of loving when we know we're gonna experience loss

and how clean and simple and heartbreaking that loss is. That really made a lot of sense to me. So I hope you get to soak up a lot of precious moments in these next weeks or months with her. Yeah, and I'm glad I got to talk about it and give her a on-air honor. A shout out. Yep.

Tell Waffles not to forget me. I know. Now I feel like an asshole. Your dog's passing away and I'm talking about Waffles romping with Beyonce. Comparative suffering. No, I'm joyful for Waffles. I am joyful for Waffles. And I hope he doesn't forget you when he's famous.

That's all. Yes, yes. I am joyful for waffles. And I hope he doesn't forget you when he's famous. That's all. Yes. Yes. Well, I'm glad we got to talk about the power of, you know, dogs and animals in our lives because I think it's really, really impactful. Yeah. Well, Kimmy, thank you so much. This has been really fun. I knew from the first moment that you and I connected that this was going to be a great conversation. And to my ears, it sure has been. Yes, I feel the same way. I'm a big fan of

your show and your work. And I hope everyone listening will discover it if they have not already. Yep. And right back at you. Okay. Take care. Okay. Bye. Bye. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a monthly donation to support the One You Feed podcast. When you join our membership community with this monthly pledge, you get lots of exclusive members-only benefits. It's our way of saying thank you for your support. Now, we are so grateful for the members of our community. We wouldn't be able to do what we do without their support,

and we don't take a single dollar for granted. To learn more, make a donation at any level, and become a member of the One You Feed community, go to oneyoufeed.net slash join. The One You Feed podcast would like to sincerely thank our sponsors for supporting the show. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like

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