The One You Feed - James R Doty

Episode Date: July 13, 2016

This week we talk to James R Doty about the power of compassion James R Doty, MD, is a Clinical Professor in the Department of Neurosurgery at Stanford University and the Director of the Center for Compassion and Altruism Research and Education at Stanford University School of Medicine. He completed his undergraduate education at the University of CA, Irvine and medical school at Tulane University. He trained in neurosurgery at Walter Reed Army Medical Center and completed fellowships in pediatric neurosurgery at Children’s Hospital in Philadelphia. As Director of CCARE, Dr. Doty has collaborated on a number of research projects focused on compassion and altruism including the use of neuro-economic models to assess altruism, use of the CCARE developed compassion cultivation training in individuals and its effect, assessment of compassionate and altruistic judgment utilizing implanted brain electrodes and the use of optogenetic techniques to assess nurturing pathways in rodents. Dr. Doty is also an inventor, entrepreneur and philanthropist having given support to a number of charitable organizations including Children as the Peacemakers, Global Healing, the Pachamama Alliance and Family & Children Services of Silicon Valley. Additionally, he has endowed chairs at major universities including Stanford University and his alma mater, Tulane University. He is on the Board of Directors of a number of non-profit foundations including the Dalai Lama Foundation, of which he is chairman and the Charter for Compassion International of which he is vice-chair. He is also on the International Advisory Board of the Council for the Parliament of the World’s Religions. He is the author of Into the Magic Shop: A Neurosurgeon’s Quest to Discover the Mysteries of the Brain and the Secrets of the Heart  In This Interview, James R Doty and I Discuss... The One You Feed parable His book,  Into the Magic Shop: A Neurosurgeon’s Quest to Discover the Mysteries of the Brain and the Secrets of the Heart  The impact of compassionate acts on our brain, health and well-being How early in his childhood he felt like a leaf being blown around by an ill wind The four key lessons that, when learned, changed the trajectory of his life The difference between you and your inner voice That when you create the internal circumstances for reaching your goal, that allows for the possibility of the outward circumstances to align themselves for your own success A scientific perspective on the connection between the brain and the heart and the rest of the body For more show notes visit our websiteSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

When you create the internal circumstances for reaching your goals, then that allows for the possibility of the outward circumstances to align themselves for your own success. Welcome to The One You Feed. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like, garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other

people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really No Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to reallyknowreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. The Really Know Really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is James R. Doty, MD. James is a professor in the Department of Neurosurgery at Stanford University and the director of the Center for Compassion and Altruism Research and Education. He is also a philanthropist funding health clinics throughout the world and has endowed scholarships and chairs at multiple universities. Here's the interview. Hi, Jim. Welcome to the show. Thank you.

It's wonderful to be with you. Happy to have you on. Your book called Into the Magic Shop, A Neurosurgeon's Guide to Discover the Mysteries of the Brain and the Secrets of the Heart was a really enjoyable read. I love when I get a combination of a memoir that is compelling and that also weaves wisdom sort of in and out throughout it. So your book did that and I really enjoyed it. Well, thank you. I appreciate that. It's funny, a lot of people say, I'm really mad at you. And I say, why? And they said, well, I started the book at about eight or nine at night and I couldn't stop, so I had to finish it 2 or 3 in the morning.

That's good praise for a book. That's the idea. In addition to writing that book and being a neurosurgeon, you are also the director of the Center for Compassion and Altruism Research and Education at the University of Stanford. Can you tell me a little bit about what that group is? Can you tell me a little bit about what that group is? Sure. This is an interest that I've had for some time, but basically what we do is examine the neuroscience of compassion and altruism and the value proposition associated with those behaviors. And not surprisingly, when an individual engages in compassionate or altruistic behavior, it

has a very positive effect on their physiology. And in fact, not only does it improve mental and physical health, but it also increases longevity. Yeah, I want to dive into some of the research that your organization has done a little bit further into the show. Let's start here, like we always do, with with the parable where there's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson. He says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. The grandson stops.

He thinks about it for a second, and he looks up at his grandfather and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you, in your life, and in the work that you do. Well, I think that the reality is there's actually a fair amount of neuroscience behind that statement. We know that individuals, when they see behaviors, typically I like to refer to positive

behaviors, but in fact, it can be negative behaviors. Oftentimes, they will model themselves after that. And clearly, most people would acknowledge that promoting negative or bad behavior doesn't help anyone, certainly not in the long-term sense. And clearly, as I just alluded to in relationship to the work that I do, one personally benefits from activities that promote positive activities or positive behaviors. positive activities or positive behaviors. We know that when we see individuals demonstrate compassion or kindness or inclusive behaviors, that this has a rippling effect on others around them. And in fact, interacting with individuals in this fashion results in an increase in bagel tone, which, if you will, engages the parasympathetic nervous system, which is part of our autonomic nervous system, and is the opposite of the sympathetic nervous system, which many of us know is associated with the flight or fight response.

When you engage the parasympathetic nervous system, what this does, it results in a sense of calmness, connection, it promotes executive function, improves creativity, promotes productivity, and puts you in a mental state of calmness and relaxation, which promotes affiliative behavior. Excellent. I'd like to definitely talk more about the interaction between the brain and the heart and what you guys have learned there. Let's start from here with a little bit about the title of the book. The book is called Into the Magic Shop. Where did that title come from. As you noted, this book is in part a memoir and also incorporates neuroscience and, if you will, contemplative practice. But the book originates from an experience, or excuse me, the title from an experience that I had as a 12-year-old. I grew up in poverty. My father was an alcoholic. My mother was an invalid. She had a seizure disorder and was partially paralyzed, was chronically depressed, had attempted suicide multiple times. Neither of my parents had gone to college,

and we were on public assistance. And obviously, this is not a combination which is associated with success in life, generally speaking. And what happened to me was that I was fortunate because one day, by accident, actually, I walked into a magic shop, and the owner was not there, who I wanted to discuss magic with, actually, but his mother was there, who just happened to be sitting in while he was doing an errand. was there who just happened to be sitting in while he was doing an errand. And frankly, she knew nothing about magic, at least in the store, but in some ways she knew about a different type of magic. And I described this woman as an earth mother type. She had this incredibly radiant, engaging smile. And as a 12-year-old in my situation, it wasn't really often that adults treated you necessarily with kindness or with patience. And she did both of those things.

And she also asked some actually fairly penetrating questions about my background, which I was somewhat embarrassed to tell her, but did. And at the end of the conversation, after about 20 or 30 minutes, she said to me, you know, I think I can teach you something that could really help you and change your life. And that she informed me she was going to be there for another six weeks visiting her son. And if I came in every day, she would teach me these things. And I wish I could tell you I had self-awareness and insight at that time. But frankly, I actually showed up hoping to actually meet her son and learn more about magic. But also she gave me some cookies while I was there.

And I frankly had nothing else to do. So in fact, I did show up. And over that six week period of time, what she taught me, really changed the trajectory of my life. And in fact, prior to this, I tell people that I felt like a leaf being blown by an ill wind, and really had accepted the fact that I had limited, and really had accepted the fact that I had limited, if any, future possibilities. And after this period of six weeks with this woman, I really understood that I had unlimited possibilities. And it really was my first experience with this concept of neuroplasticity, which at that time in 1968 was not ever heard of. But in fact, we do know that we can change our brain. We do know that certain types of meditation or mindfulness types of practices can do that. And really, that's what happened to me. And it took me from this perspective of limited to few possibilities to unlimited possibilities.

And while my personal circumstance did not change, how I viewed my circumstance changed, and that changed everything. And so she really taught you a few different things. I think you broke it down into four key lessons. One was around learning to relax your body lessons. One was around learning to relax your body. The other was around learning to calm your thoughts. So both of those are meditative type of exercises. She taught you about learning to open your heart. And I think we'll spend a lot of this conversation on that. And then the last thing she taught you was to visualize the things that you want to have happen in your life, which sounds a lot like some of what we hear today, which is like the law of

attraction or things along those lines. And I'm really curious about your take on that, because as a scientist, I think you don't believe that like we just think about something and it magically comes true. But yet, if you look at your life, those visualization techniques that she gave you very much allowed you to achieve remarkable things in life. How do you see that that last part, that visualization actually works to help us bring outcomes into our life that we want? Well, just to make a comment on the law of attraction, or I think there's another book called The Secret, or if you will, there's a concept of prosperity gospel. And I would say that clarity of intention or visualization is wonderful, but I think you have to keep in mind that if what you're desiring has a selfish motive

or is purely for self-benefit, it's really not quite clear to me that type of a motivation is helpful or if you're as successful in the context of visualization. And I'll explain that a little bit further. The other side of this is sometimes people like to sell to naive people a vision that, well, you can be just like me if you do X, Y, and Z, and please pay me money. And in fact, again, it's a selfish intention, and it's taking advantage. So that being said, though, what I would tell you is that many of the events that happen in our life and many of our behaviors are manifestations of unconscious activities that are going on within us. As an example, and this, if you will, relates to Ruth's lesson number two, if you will, and it's a realization

that oftentimes we have a perception of who we are or what we're capable of, it is a result of listening to a voice inside of our head. And that voice is a creation or construct that combines all sorts of commentary from others and reinforcement by ourselves. And unfortunately, for many people in the West, especially, that voice in your head is not necessarily one that is positive or one of self-affirmation. And oftentimes, people confuse that voice for them. And it's not. And if that voice is one that is negative or hypercritical, oftentimes then it will limit you in what you believe is possible, especially if you feel that it is you. So one of the things that she taught me was to have this understanding. As an example, even at that age, I had accepted my situation in life. And when I started, as an example, saying, geez, I wanted to go to college,

or I wanted to be a doctor. Well, on the one hand, I wanted that. Really, I also had going on in there, well, geez, your parents aren't this. You don't have this background. Who are you? You're poor. I was ashamed of my background. And all of that made me feel as though I was not worthy for success, if you will, and in some ways created shame and despair and anger and hostility. And when I realized that that construct or that voice was not me, it allowed me then to understand that I did not have to have an emotional response because that's what happens to many of us when we hear these negative things,

which may create fear or anxiety we don't appreciate oftentimes that we have a physiologic response to that so one of the first things was understanding that reality then understanding that i did not have to have that type of response and then further understanding that uh could, if you will, change the channel and change it to one of self-affirmation and one that allowed me to have a belief in my own potential. So that was critically important. The other aspect is to have goals and aspirations that certainly promote your own potential, but also are not negative in regard to other people. Because when you create that, that creates another form of emotional baggage that you have to deal with. So if you can create goals and aspirations that are

a positive or pure intention, then those can be integrated into your subconscious. And what we do know is that when you create the internal circumstances for reaching your goals, then that allows for the possibility of the outward circumstances to align themselves for your own success. So instead of having that anger, despair, hopelessness, if you will, I changed my attitude to one of just acceptance of the reality of my situation, not being angry, not having despair, and combine that with an optimism, a positivity, and really a sincere belief in possibilities and my own worth and my own goals, then that changed how everyone reacted to me. And instead of being in opposition to my goals, they actually became supporters of my goals. So it's really about who you are internally,

and what you're reflecting out to the world, and your strength of your mental state that causes these things to have a better chance of coming about versus some sort of magic field that exists. Well, that's my belief. I appreciate that people do have beliefs and things like that, but in terms of the context of my own situation, that is not how I have interpreted things, certainly. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like

why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you, and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do

his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's gonna drop by. Mr. Brian Cranston is with us tonight. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really, No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman.

And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really, No Really. Yeah, really. No really. Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason Bobblehead. It's called Really, No Really, and you can find it on the iHe it on the I heart radio app on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Ruth's third lesson to you is about opening your heart. And you say in the course of the book, and I'm not going to give too much of it away because it's a great read and people should go go check it out. But that was one of the ones that you sort of skipped over a little bit um was the opening of the heart and that that led your life in certain directions and now that's a big focus of everything that you do it's a focus of the the center that you direct it's a focus of your research so what do we know about how the heart and the brain interact in general? And a little bit more specifically, do we have any evidence that shows that the heart, as in the physical organ, is really the center of emotional behavior or thoughts? Because that's what we tend to think, right? We tend to talk about our heart being more of an emotional thing. Is there any evidence that that's really where that's coming from? There was a neuroscientist who, 20-some years ago, began trying to study compassion and how it manifests in the brains working with Buddhist monks who, as you probably know, Buddhism is centrally focused on compassion.

And the technique he was using was electroencephalography or EEG. And you've probably seen these pictures of individuals or even monks who are wearing these caps that have all these electrodes coming out of them. And it's really quite a funny looking picture. So he brought this cap actually to northern India where there were a lot of Tibetan Buddhist monks who were refugees. And he explained that he was using this device to measure compassion in the brain. And they all started laughing. Now, he made the assumption that they were laughing because of the appearance of this cap. But one of the monks explained to him, he said, obviously, you don't know where compassion is. And he pointed to his heart, it's here and not there.

So it is sort of an interesting statement that thousands of years ago, even without necessarily having the neuroscience, that there was an understanding that compassion, love came from the heart. What we do know is that coming from the base of the brain or the brainstem are a large number of nerves, both with inflow and outflow to the brain, that are extending into the heart and other organs in the body, but especially the heart. And these organs can also, if you will, give feedback to the brain about how they are reacting or the events that are happening to them independent of the brain. One of the things you've probably heard about,

that might give an example and that we did not appreciate and that we're learning more about, is as an example that the flora in your gut actually has an impact on your emotional state. And so what's happening is you're getting feedback from your gut to your brain based on what type of gut flora you have. And in some ways, the same type of communication works between your brain and your heart as well. There's also a syndrome called broken heart syndrome you may have heard about. heard about where an individual ends a relationship and the emotional context of that relationship is so much that their heart just stops. And this has been reported over and over again. We also know

that there is something called heart rate variability that has a relationship to the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system and that when your parasympathetic nervous system is engaged which as i mentioned earlier is associated with calmness and connection and affiliate behavior and increased executive control productivity creativity that when you have an increase in what we call heart rate variability, your heart actually functions at its best, while if it's the opposite, or you have a decrease in heart rate variability, a decrease in heart rate variability that, in fact, that is associated with sudden cardiac death. So we do know now, and we're learning even more and more, that this connection between the brain and the heart and the rest of the body is, number one, a two-way street,

and they both powerfully affect the other. And so heart rate variability in this case is a positive. Correct. And it does seem counterintuitive because you would think that a decrease in heart rate variability, which would imply a consistency and a stability, would be what you would strive for. And in fact, it turns out that that is not the case. And you have to be careful. This is not a variable pulse. This is the interbeat variability, which are different

because you can have somebody with the same heart rate and one have profound heart rate variability and another who has a heart rate of 60 in a minute that has little if any and meaning that the latter would have a much higher incidence of if you will sudden cardiac death uh than the former so heart rate variability more of it is good the vagus nerve that you talk about is one of the things that controls that. How do we build better vagal tone? There are a number of ways. One is you can actually increase your vagal tone, which

increases parasympathetic nervous system tone by certain types of mental practices. by certain types of mental practices. As an example, we've developed a compassion cultivation technique. And when one does that type of practice, that in fact increases your vagal tone. There are also certain types of breathing exercises that will do that as well. And they are typically incorporated into many of the practices that are associated with mindfulness, and certainly a number of other types of, if you will, Eastern practices. And all of these have, through, if you will, trial and error over the last few thousand years have been incorporated into practices that we know really have a profound effect on your physiology. The other thing that, again, oftentimes we don't appreciate is that if you don't appreciate how you can sway your autonomic nervous system one way or another, if you will,

by increasing or decreasing vagal tone. You don't appreciate that it can have a profound effect on your long-term health as well as your short-term health. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal?

The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts his stuntman reveals the answer and you never know who's going to drop by mr brian cranson is with us how are you hello my friend wayne knight about jurassic park wayne knight welcome to really no really sir bless you all hello newman and you never know when howie mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening?

Really, no really. Yeah, really. No really. Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason Bobblehead. It's called Really, No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Your research is really focusing on a couple things, it seems to me. One is what you're talking about there, which is practices that we can do, cultivation of compassion, etc., and what that does for the very things we've been talking about, your heart health, etc. Your research also, it's very similar, but also there seems to be a lot about the role of social connection with other people in society. So beyond just maybe some of these internal practices that we do ourselves to cultivate compassion or mindfulness about the actual connection with other people in the world,

and what are we finding out about how important that is to our health? Well, we've seen it from a number of different perspectives. As an example, there's a model of attachment behavior, bonding behavior, and it's been demonstrated that when you're young, if you don't bond with others or connect with others, young, if you don't bond with others or connect with others, or let's say you're deprived of those connections or nurturing or being cared for, it has a huge, huge, huge deleterious or negative effect on your future in regard to health. It is associated not only with the increased occurrence of cancer, of chronic diseases such as diabetes, but also for illnesses in general, probably due to a suppressed immune system. It's associated with not only the increased occurrence of disease, but also the severity of disease. We know that isolation and loneliness, which is, again, a result of lack of attachment or not being nurtured oftentimes,

again, really, really has a very negative effect on your health. And certainly, we also know that one of the challenges of modern society is that oftentimes we don't have the opportunity to have the connections which would occur, let's say, a few hundred years ago when people lived multi-generational in the same village, grew up with the same individuals. If you will, you were cared for not only by the family, but by the village. Everyone knew who you were. They knew your good parts, your bad parts. And as a result, you have this sort of sense of being enveloped by concern, caring, nurturing love. In modern society, where that is actually much less likely to be the case, in fact, is rarely the case, you have individuals who are not in any proximity to those they're related to or their loved ones

they're often transient in some senses where they may move from year to year or even month to month and as a result one quarter of americans when surveyed said that when they were in pain or suffering, they had no one to talk to. And what this means is that you don't have those same degree of connections. And again, the same thing happens. When you don't have connection, it engages the sympathetic nervous system because you don't feel safe. You don't feel that you can trust. system because you don't feel safe, you don't feel that you can trust. And as a result, you have, again, the chronic release of these hormones and other chemicals in your body that are

deleterious to your health. If you look at, as an example here in Silicon Valley, if you ask what the greatest costs of health care for the tech community, which makes up people in their 20s to 40s, if you will, predominantly, it is stress, anxiety, loneliness, and depression. this has a huge, huge cost, not only for those illnesses, but for the secondary effects of those illnesses, which is mind-body disconnections, which cause, as an example, oftentimes headaches, neck pain, back pain, gastrointestinal problems, a whole variety of illnesses. gastrointestinal problems, a whole variety of illnesses, again, as a result of your body reflecting, if you will, the fact that you are not at peace within yourself. That's one of the things that's been striking to me as we've done this show, and listeners have heard me say this multiple times recently because it just seems to keep getting hammered home.

You know, I think I thought so much about the Eastern practices of going inside and cultivating compassion and mindfulness and all that. But I've been so surprised in all the conversations we've had that come in right alongside that as such a key important part is the going outside and finding connection in the world around us. And so it's the balance of those two things that has been sort of eye-opening to me, at least from where I came from, which was really a focus on internal practices. It's interesting you say that, because the way I would put it is that, you know, these internal practices, as an example, mindfulness, they're wonderful in regard to example, mindfulness, they're wonderful in regard to attention, focus, if you will, relaxation. That being said, for certain types of individuals, unless there is some component of compassion, it can make a sort of self-absorbed narcissistic person more so.

Right. Because this is a journey of one right yeah and even though we talk about a sangha and a community oftentimes with this my own personal experience has been and i think you would probably acknowledge this there's a subset of people who uh just become more narcissistic and self-absorbed and in fact fact, it always strikes me as funny. I'll go to different places to give talks and I'll, it's like now your people come to compete with you about how more internally disciplined they are. Like, you know, I went on my third 10 day retreat in the last year with so-and-so over at Spirit Rock and it's like, really? Okay,

well, what did you learn? Not a whole lot, it sounds like, since your ego is talking now, right? And this is sometimes a problem because they're not a self-awareness that the goal of all of this is to not have attachment and not to have ego. And the other aspect that is forgotten sometimes is that what ultimately most of us strive for in our lives is to have meaning. And meaning is not a journey by oneself. What meaning for most people is, is a sense that you had a purpose during your life, that your interaction, how you behaved had a positive effect, and that hopefully

on some level, either by friends or family, that you will be remembered and have set an example which you wish others to emulate. And the requirement for that is an outward journey of connection. Otherwise, you cannot get that. And this is this idea of transcendence, to know at the end of your days that you contributed in a positive way to all other beings in the world, and that is a legacy that you've left. You know, I know very few, if any, people who say who say geez it was all about me i could have cared less about anybody and it was so wonderful being in a room by myself accumulating money and power now i would suggest there are probably one or two of those people chris uh but But for most, you know, that's an empty path. say that as I realized that I had the capability to achieve certain goals and really focused on that,

especially from my own background of poverty and deprivation, looking around me, I thought that the acquisition of things, money, would give me control and make me happy. Because in the context of my environment, where I had no control and events were always happening, it created anxiety and unhappiness. But really, what created an anxiety and unhappiness was not so much not having those things, it was having an emotional reactivity

to events of which I had no control. And ultimately, when I had accumulated this immense wealth and had essentially, if you will, quote unquote, everything, I realized I had nothing. quote-unquote everything, I realized I had nothing. And what I thought would feed this emptiness within me offered no nutrition whatsoever. And having lost everything and then choosing to give away the last thing that I had, it really opened my eyes to understand that caring for others, being kind, being of service to others, that is the thing that gives life meaning. That is the thing that ultimately gives one transcendence, if you will, and ultimately is what gives you great sustenance and nutrition and to have a life of meaning. Well, I think that is a great place to wrap up because I don't think I can add anything to

that last statement there, which is really a great summary of your book and really your life's work at this point. Well, thank you so much. Yes, thank you so much for coming on. Like I said, I really enjoyed the book. And thanks so much, Jim, for coming on the show. Great. I appreciate it. And for those who want more information about the work that I do at Stanford, there's a website, ccare.stanford.edu. And for more information about the book or where you might be able to get it, you can go to intothemagicshop.com.

Yep, absolutely. And we will also have links to all that stuff. So thanks so much. It was a great book and it was a real pleasure talking with you today. Thank you. Bye. you can learn more about this podcast and james r dotey at one you feed.net slash jim