The One You Feed - Joey Svendsen: Depression and Fundamentalist Christianity

Episode Date: April 12, 2017

Please Support The Show With a Donation   This week we talk to Joey Svendsen Joey Svendsen grew up in Charleston, SC and received a degree in Elementary Education from Winthrop University in 1999. After graduation, he taught school for 5 years and served as a youth minister at New Beginnings Church in James Island. He is now the campus pastor Joey for the James Island Campus of Seacoast Church. His book is called Fundamentalist and describes his journey of growing up in a fundamentalist church while having OCD and depression. He is also part of the popular The Bad Christian Podcast  In This Interview, Joey Svendsen and I Discuss... How the rigid do's and don'ts found in Christianity are so contrary to Jesus How he found a form of Christianity that worked for him, so much so that he became a pastor His podcast, Bad Christian How he grew up in a fundamentalist Christian church as a child with OCD and depression How we can accept that as humans we're flawed and also move forward with a good life Scrupulosity That you can train your brain to be consumed with fear, self-loathing and punishment How his goal is to be a catalyst to unity and understanding That we the people make the country regardless of what's happening in the government The stupidity and ignorance of assuming your beliefs are 100% right and the beliefs of the other side is 100% wrong His beautiful description of depression That it's hard to properly evaluate a situation when your brain is the problem How he manages his periods of depression The importance of having grace with those suffering from depression Thinking of the brain as a physical organ when it comes to depression How important it is to give people the benefit of the doubt How his view of depression has evolved How to be open Please Support The Show with a DonationSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

A lot of my problems weren't spiritual. A lot of my problems were that I trained my brain to mess me up. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like, garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. I'm Jason Alexander.

And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like... Why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor? What's in the museum of failure? And does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. The Really No Really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Joey Svensson. What happens when you grow up in a fundamentalist church and you have OCD and depression? Well, Joey can tell you. He grew up in Charleston, South Carolina, and received a degree in elementary education from Winthrop University in 1999. After graduation, Joey taught school for five years and served as a youth minister for New Beginnings Church in James Island. His new book is Fundamentalist, stories of a mentally ill, obsessive-compulsive, legalistic youth group kid turned pastor. And here's the interview with Joey Svensson. Hi, Joey. Welcome to the show. Hey, man. It's good to be on here.

I'm happy to have you on. We're going to talk about depression and maybe politics and mental health and all kinds of fun stuff. But before we get into that, let's start like we always do with the parable where there's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson and he says, In life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops, he thinks about it for a second and looks up at his grandfather and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life

and in the work that you do. Well, I would say that for me, I'm coming from a pretty Christian spiritual slant. So for better, for worse, for right or wrong, I think that we are in need of a higher spiritual source. And honestly, it just seems to be something that's pretty apparent in our world. If you see self run wild, just the different examples of people that have done such horrible things. And I do think that there is a place for just self-discipline and doing the right thing and thinking right thoughts. And I totally think there's a place for that, but at least in my own experience, and that's all I have to go off of. If I do all of that stuff outside of a spiritual lens, then I just get super prideful. And I think I'm really

awesome and just a top-notch guy that just does awesome things and thinks awesome things, which leads to bad stuff, in my opinion. But I love that parable. I think it's super important, our thoughts and just thinking through, hey, what are we doing from day to day that's going to make us one person or the other? In your book, you talk about yourself when you were younger and you had the, I'd say, dual affliction of being in a very strong Pentecostal church with belief systems that, as you wrote, I think scared the bejeebus out of you. So you paired that with OCD, and you got a little of what you were describing there, which is this, I am super focused on my behavior and I am keeping score of myself and everybody else. do that. And I think that is a very common misconception inside and outside of the church. You know, that seems to be what people think the vehicle of the church is, is just doing the right

stuff and avoiding the wrong stuff, which I believe in the spiritual element of being connected with who I feel is God, which is Jesus. But yeah, you're right. I mean, religion really screwed me over big time. I mean, just from a very early age, I was focused on some of the good stuff, but the bad stuff, I think, overshadowed the good stuff and just thinking that, you know, gosh, I got to do this. I can't do that. And if I do this too much, then I'll screw myself over and maybe I'll go to hell forever. And like you said, pairing that with OCD and irrational thinking, I mean, gosh, I could give you examples that would make your jaw drop. I mean, just the crazy stuff that I thought and how it played out in my head.

I mean, into the early years of my marriage, I mean, I got married in 2002 and still was battling a lot of that stuff. I remember sharing some of the stuff with my wife, and yeah, that was a moment there. Yeah, certainly lots of prayer checklists and, you know, rigid adherence. You know, we had Richard Rohr on recently. You may or may not have heard of him. He's a Catholic priest, more on the mystical side, but he talks about that same idea that, you know, this idea of what he calls them the hot sins, you know, the sex, the pornography, the drinking, that, like, that's the most basic level, and that's where a lot of people get stuck in religion and not getting on to the deeper connection, you know, and so I'm not a Christian, but I strongly believe

in a spiritual life, and I strongly believe in a spiritual life, and I strongly believe that our connection to things, whether those things be our internal higher self, external things, that connection is really a huge part of the game. And rigid behavior really doesn't foster that. Now, it can get in the way of it if you're out of control, but just by having that under control does not necessarily mean the way of it if you're out of control, but just by having that under control does not necessarily mean the rest of it's working. Yeah, and the thing with Christianity, too, is, and I'm speaking from a standpoint of, you know, I'm not the sort of Christian that says, I'm 100% sure that I am right and everybody

else is wrong. Bottom line is, I have faith, but I don't know. I mean, until we die, I don't think that we can know. But if you take Christianity in its purest form, the rigid do's and don'ts and all of that stuff is just so contrary to what Jesus stood for in the first place. I mean, he was just like, hey, just follow me and I'll take care of the rest. I'm not condemning you anymore. I'm not judging you anymore, which is just crazy because that sort of stuff is what screwed me over. Stuff that was anti-Jesus. I mean, here I am being brought up in a church and the stuff that I was being taught and stuff that was just wreaking havoc on my brain, literally, was stuff that Christianity

doesn't even entail, you know, just super backwards approach. But you found your way through that and didn't become disillusioned with all religion. You're a pastor. So you found, you know, I think a lot of people end up being driven away by some of the things you're talking about. In your case, you managed to, I guess, I'm not sure what the right word is, transform or overcome, but find a way to find a Christianity that works for you. And here again, for me, it's, I know that what I, like, I like to preface, my friends make fun of me for prepping so much, so none of these statements are intended to be like evangelistic, I'm trying to save people

statements. This is personal reflections. So for me personally, there have been times in the past even few years, and I've been a pastor now for nine years, and there's been times where I've just been literally scared out of my mind, just like, gosh, there's so many doubts, so many questions, so many things that I'm unsure of and not sure of anymore. And I've said this a thousand times on our Bad Christian podcast, so they're sick of hearing it, but I literally have felt the craziest peace come over me. And I didn't ask for it. I didn't meditate. I didn't sit there trying to train my thoughts to go into a peaceful place. It just came over me. And to me, that's everything that I've ever thought of as far as Jesus. So for me, that's the personal

relationship with Jesus as far as him saying, hey, I'm with you. You don't have to fear any of this stuff, like where you're at and your questions and your thoughts. It's all good. Just relax. Everything's cool. And then honestly, that piece goes away. It's almost like a father patting his son on the head saying, hey, it's okay. Chill out. You're good. Don't worry about it. And I'm with you, but I'm not always going to reveal myself to you this way. So that's really what's kept me going. I mean, honestly, there have been times that I've been super scared as a pastor. Yeah, a couple thoughts on that. I mean, one is, I think, regardless of, again, using different terms, but I've become more convinced as time has gone on. I used to think differently. We

talked earlier about making effort towards rigid behavior. I think I went from that to thinking on some level that if I meditated enough, if I got my thoughts right enough, but as time has gone on, I've started to recognize some element of, I think the word, you know, you could use the word grace or, you know, for me, I was, you know, I'm a recovering alcoholic and addict and in AA, you know, you've got this thing where you're turning your will and your life over. right? And I had these moments where I was like, what am I turning my will and my life over to? And for me, I realized it almost didn't matter, right? It was me letting go of clenching so tightly to everything that if I let go, and I think spiritual practice for me, I'm recognizing

a little bit more of that too. Like, okay. And I'm always on this show kind of asking the question about like, how do you strive and want to be a better person and live a better life and also accept where you are, accept who you are and enjoy the life you have? Like those things seem to be a balancing act. You know, honestly, I don't want to diss any other beliefs or wherever, but I feel like however people believe and however they are moving along in their life journey, if it's moving closer to feeling bad about themselves and feeling more constricted and more in bondage, I feel like I'm comfortable with saying, hey, I think that's wrong, which is so ironic because that's typically a lot of church circles pushes people in that direction. And again, I'll restate, I don't feel like that's typically a lot of church circles pushes people in that direction.

And again, I'll restate, I don't feel like that's what Jesus is about at all. But I mean, any time people are moving towards more freedom, I'm just like, gosh, that's because honestly, as humans, can't we all understand? Hey, we're all pretty jacked up. And so let's let ourselves off the hook a little bit and realize that we're jacked up and let's accept that. And now let's move on and let ourselves off the hook, not beat ourselves up all the time and just be like, okay, I'm trying. I mean, God help me. I'm trying. I'm trying to do what I can do each day. I'm taking one day at a time. I'm going to mess up, and all I can say is I'm trying. Yep. I love not being a Christian, but living in a country that has a tremendous, you know,

Christianity still is a major part of this country. I love seeing guys like you and Science Mike and Richard Rohr, you know, talking about a Christianity that really resonates strongly with me and really seems like a sane version of it. It's just so nice to see. I love it. And I love the doubt piece that you guys are bringing in. I don't know all the answers, and I don't have to know all the answers in order to engage in a practice and a way of life. Yeah, I mean, and some of the stuff that I struggled with growing up, there's actually a scientific terminology, it's called scrupulosity. And I was,

for my book, I was researching and stumbled upon this. And when I was reading the depictions and people's personal autobiographical depiction of just how their thoughts operated for years and years and years of their lives, I was like, oh my gosh, there are lots of people out there like me. Now, I will say they say that's one of the rarest forms of OCD, but still the fact that there's terminology for it. We're talking thousands, tens of thousands of people at least that have these sorts of struggles. And it's just insane. And I think what I have part of part of the freedom I found is realizing just how much science plays a role in this. Like it's a lot of my problems weren't spiritual. A lot of my problems were that I had trained with other people's help.

A lot of my problems were that I had trained with other people's help, and I use that help word loosely, but I trained my brain to mess me up. I trained my brain to think thoughts of bondage and beating myself up and fear, constant fear and OCD thoughts and irrational thoughts and all that stuff. And so my brain had been trained year after year after year after year. And I had to relearn. And I think really recognizing, okay, this isn't just a spiritual matter. My brain is an organ that operates and it gets used to certain things. And you have to retrain it. That's why counselors are so important and people that are experts in the psychology field because they can help you untie some of those knots. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden.

And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you. And the one bringing back the woolly mammoth.

Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Bryan Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really, No Really, sir.

Bless you all. Hello, Newman. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really, No Really. Yeah, Really. No Really.

Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really, No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. oneufeed.net slash support and make a monthly donation. Our goal is to get to 5% of our listeners supporting the show. Please be part of the 5% that make a contribution and allow us to keep putting out these interviews and ideas. We really need your help to make the show sustainable and long lasting. Again, that's oneufeed.net slash support. Thank you in advance for your help. I saw a comedian the other night, Brian Regan, who said something like he introduced the topic of the presidency and he said, I've never been so scared to talk about anything in my entire life, right?

This is a loaded time. And so I don't want to get into politics politics but i do want to talk about a couple things that i've heard you say because they they resonate a lot with me i despite what concerns i might have about what's happening politically i am more worried about how we're acting towards each other and treating each other and and i heard you say my goal is to be part of the catalyst for unity, listening, and mutual understanding. We're all right on some things and we're all wrong on some things. Yeah. I mean, because if we think about it, I mean, come on. Like when Obama was president, you had just... Now, let me back up a little bit. Trump is an enigma. I mean, Trump is kind of an

exception, in my opinion, to the Bush haters and the Obama haters. I mean, Trump is like, oh, my gosh, this guy's president. Different ballgame. you could say that was the most polarized our country has ever been at that point in time. And, you know, maybe it just remained consistent with Obama. I don't think it was more polarized, maybe a little less, but just throughout our country and what's really changed. I mean, what did Obama really just jack up our country? I mean, are we are we now seeing the demise of America? Are we in a second Great Depression? You know, when George Bush was president, did things just completely fall apart? I mean, 9-11 happened.

Seems like things should have fallen apart. And it's just like I I love America. I don't think America is like this great above reproached country, but I'm an American. I love what our, you know, soldiers have done in the past as far as fighting. You know, my grandpa fought in World War Two, at least in his mind, was a good cause. People gave their lives up. So I feel like I'm even patriotic. But as far as our country being above reproach and not doing evil, that's a stupid thought. So along the way, I mean, our country has kind of been just staying on the same level. And so what I don't understand is how people can't see

that we are what makes the country. It's the people. And despite what's going on in the government, if we can't figure out how to coexist and we can't figure out how to love one another and have conversations. I mean, once the conversation ends to where one side cannot hear the other side and the other side can't hear the other, it's just like, whoa, wait a second, that's dangerous territory. I mean, is it out of the question to think that there could be a civil war at some point? I don't know. I mean, that sounds crazy and barbaric, but it's like people are so stupid to think that they are 100% correct and the other side is 100% wrong. I mean, to me, that is ignorance at its highest level to assume your beliefs are 100% right

and everybody else are dumbasses. I mean, that's just the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my life. It doesn't make sense. Yeah, the thing I've seen and that I find most disturbing, and I'm going to quote you in a minute to back it up, is I just think that each side keeps picking out the worst example of the other side and using it as the example of the other side. And you said, assuming that all voters for Trump are racist, and all voters for Hillary, you know, love killing babies. That's what we're doing. We're picking the worst example of the other side and using that. And as long as we

keep doing that, of course, those people are despicable, right? You know, you get too far on the extreme on either side. And I think you find, you know, you find problems, but I'm just so concerned about our inability to dialogue about it in a, you know, semi rational way. And I think that the more angry everybody gets about their side, the more entrenched the other side gets. And so I just really appreciated kind of hearing some of the things you, you said about it. Cause I think you were, you know, we're coming from kind of the same place on that, which is like, we got to find a way to, you know, move together and listen to each other and, you know, assume positive intent. You know, that's a big thing that I found in my life is to try and assume positive intent. Now, again, I think that there are times that that is challenging and depending on your views, but I agree with you. I think the solution is going to come from us finding ways to talk to each other better. Right. And I will say that I think part of the major problem with our

country right now in this season of our country is just this crazy fear of what Trump is capable of doing. And I just happen to have a little more faith in our structure and in our people and in Republicans and in Democrats that no one's going to let Trump cross those lines that everybody fears. I mean, do you really, I mean, people have mentioned this guy is capable of doing what Adolf Hitler did. I'm like, give me a break. Do you not think that his own party would even be like, dude, sorry, we're going to get you impeached. Like you are, you are crossing some dangerous territory. No, no, sir. We are not allowing this. I mean, but people really do just let their thoughts go wild and think, man, this guy's are not allowing this. I mean, but people really do just let their thoughts go

wild and think, man, this guy's capable of doing the worst stuff ever. I tend to agree with you. I see a lot of behavior that really frightens me trying to silence the press, trying to do all that. But if you think of where Nazi Germany was, right, they were in a whole different place than we are. They had a government that was barely functioning at all, and it had just been erected, right? They were like in the Great Depression after having lost the war. I mean, it was a disaster over there, you know, and I tend to agree with you. I think that we as a country and our structural systems are strong enough. Now, I think, unfortunately, a lot of individual lives get caught in the crossfire while we sort it out. And that's, that's unfortunate and, and hard to

watch. But I tend to have your optimism to that says, hey, you know, in the long run, this is going to be a blip on the radar. But, you know, like I said, there are people now who are, you know, feeling some of some of the impacts. I was in New Mexico last week, and you see these signs along the road encouraging people to make sure that they have power attorney for their children in case, you know, they're deported tomorrow. That's just hard to see, that kind of thing. So anyway, all right, let's get off that subject. That was, I hesitate to wade in, but I liked your approach. So let's talk about another of my favorite topics, which is depression. So you're a...

Man, you're a messed up dude. That's your favorite topic. I know. No, I say that tongue in cheek, but it does come up a fair amount on the show, given my background, and you've got a similar one. And I wanted to talk about depression in the sense that I'm going to just read something you wrote, because I think it's interesting. And I wrestle with this question, which is, all I know is everything is negative. And I'm back up on that dock gasping for air and the storm clouds roll in. There's nothing else I can do. So I waited out knowing the storm won't last forever. I may be wrong to see it this way, but I haven't found a solution. And I have learned to start treating bouts of depression very similarly. I

almost think of them as like having the emotional flu, right? Like it just comes and I'm going to hang in there and it's going to go away. But I think in reading your book, I think you've got the same sort of a little bit of that seems to be the most tenable and useful approach. And yet, is there something more I should be doing? Yeah, you know, that book was written, a lot of that subject matter and content was written a year ago. And I think that I've learned a lot since then. But yeah, most of that, I'm still at that place of seeing depression in this light. And what I'd say about that is there are times when I truly believe that there's not a whole hell of a lot I can do with my depression. It's just there, and I can't do anything about it.

And I would put that in the same category as you get the stomach bug and you start throwing up, you can't just say, okay, I'm going to start doing some different tricks with my stomach to knock this out right now. No, you just have it and you got to figure out how to get through it. And when it's over, it's over. Now, before getting the stomach bug, if you know what's going around, you can wash your hands, you can stay away from the person that has it, and you can do all sorts of stuff to keep yourself from it. Just like I believe there are ways of helping your brain stay away from these pits of depression and those sorts of things. But I really believe, at least me that, that there's some chemical stuff and, and I'll go so far as to say, maybe you can always figure out how to avoid depression. Maybe that's true. But

bottom line is I don't think any of us is smart enough to, to know always how to navigate our brains from, from going in a certain direction. So when I'm there, I've struggled with depression for long enough to know. And it's actually pretty encouraging. I'm like, okay,. So when I'm there, I've struggled with depression for long enough to know. And it's actually pretty encouraging. I'm like, okay, I know that I'm depressed right now. I know my outlook on life is not really how Joey sees life. I know the stuff that's making me sad when my depression is over is not going to make me sad. I just need to ride this out and accept the fact that my brain is not operating right. And that's actually brought me a lot of peace where early on when I was struggling with

depression, I didn't have that insight. I was totally convinced, no, the way that I'm thinking right now is reality. That was tough. That was really tough stuff. Yeah. I love everything you just said there. I love the analogy of, I've used the one of the emotional flu a lot. I love the analogy you made about what you can do in a preventative sense. And I agree 100%. I think one of the mysteries or the things and paradox or things is difficult about depression is, on one hand, it happens to you, and it's very hard to deal with. And, you know, you had a great line, which was basically something along, you know, it's hard to properly evaluate a situation when your brain is the problem, right. And so once you're in depression, there are some very difficult,

like you said, it's very can be very difficult to get out of. I also believe at the same time that we are responsible for dealing with our depression. And I think there are things that we can do that make it more likely, like you said, that we're, you know, for me, if I'm exercising regularly, if I'm meditating regularly, I have a much better chance. If I'm connecting to friends, I've got a much better chance of staying out of those pits. When I stopped doing that stuff, I usually will find my way into, you know, feeling kind of, kind of lousy, but I love your attitude of, you know what, I could be all wrong about depression, right? Like, this is what I, this is

the best I've come up with right now. This is what I've learned. This is what I think. And you know what, I could, I could be wrong. And I think that's a great way to, to have humility about looking at it. And so I always try and strike that line too of, I don't want to make a big ruckus about this, right? Because, you know, in the middle of depression is not the time to start evaluating the entire direction of your life, right? But that's what it feels like, you know?

And so it's like, I want to ride it out as sort of, you know, a cold or the flu. And yet at the same time, there is more to it. And how can I be working on those things? And so much of what you wrote kind of hit home with me as far as what my experience has been and the ways that I've found to sort of stop it from being such a huge deal. And I think being sick is a great analogy because when you feel sick, you're just kind of like, oh, you know, everything looks crappy.

And that's been a big relief to me. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer.

We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you. And the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Bryan Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend.

Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really, No Really, sir. Bless you all? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really No Really.

Yeah, really. No really. Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason Bobblehead. It's called Really No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You say, don't ever assume a depressed person

is slacking on troubleshooting their problem. Remember, depressed people are mentally and emotionally crippled and may not have the strength to do what is obvious to you. Instead, have some grace. Yeah, the two sides of that is, if you are depressed and people are not adhering to those instructions, we also have to have grace for them because we have to realize that we're hurting people. We're hurting, but our hurt is also hurting other people. And, you know, but I do,

you know, let's camp out on that though is you know if you know someone that's depressed i mean just just you gotta think about the brain as a physical organ and so make the jump of okay if this guy had a broken leg and we had plans to play flag football saturday i wouldn't be pissed at him because he wasn't able to play. I'd be like, well, that sucks. You have a broken leg. Sorry, you're going to miss out on flag football. And it's one of those things to where you have to realize that if the brain is a physical organ, then there has to be some things that that person who's struggling with depression is just unable to do. And just like you don't assume, you know,

the person with the broken leg, you're not assuming, oh, you're not doing anything, you know, to get better. The response is, yes, I am. I'm sitting here. I'm relaxing my leg. I'm trying, you know, not to walk on it and everything. The tough thing, though, is when it has to do with the mind, it's just not a tangible thing that you can evaluate as far as how hard someone is trying, but you might as well give them the benefit of the doubt. And, you know, unless you're super close to the person and you can tell, man, you're not making any progress. You're not even seeking counsel. You're not seeking medication. You're not doing anything. I'm your friend. I think you really need to, you know, take some steps in reaching out to someone. Yeah, that is such a tricky line.

You're right. Because, you know, I know for me, you know, one of my favorite phrases is depression hates a moving target, right? Yeah. And yet, sometimes that is the hardest thing to be is a moving target when you're depressed. And so I find that as someone who suffers from depression, and who also has several people in my life who also have depression that, you know, I can find myself getting that feeling towards them. Like, hey, come on, you can, you know, it's just so funny how hard it is to deal with that gracefully. And I really like what you say about being graceful towards the people who don't understand it also. But I think, you know, think, like you said, give them the benefit of

doubt or assume positive intent was a way of saying it. Yeah. And oddly enough, I think that's the trick with all relationships. And we were just talking about politics for a second a little while ago. And that's the same solution with politics is the same solution with this. And I think that's pretty much universal. Try to be more understanding and realize, hey, that is a different person than me with a different brain, a different background, different relationships, and assume that you don't get the full picture before you start making judgment calls. And with depression, it couldn't be any more true. It's just like, don't size a person up and just assume, oh, you're not stepping up to the plate. You need to suck it up. You need to be stronger than this.

I mean, those are just maddening. It's like, you can't say that to someone because it makes the statement that you understand them more than they understand themselves, and that's just ludicrous. Yeah. As you were talking earlier in this being open to not knowing a lot about depression, I think depression is like addiction in that it is an extremely complex syndrome. There are so many factors. And when I was early on in recovery, I think I was arrogant enough to think like, I know how to do it. I know how to get people, get sober. And 20 years later, I am probably less sure than I've ever been about what the driving forces are in addiction. It is just such a mystery. And we make progress.

But as we make progress, we realize how much we don't know. And I think depression is similar. There's so many factors, so many contributors that, you know, having an open mind towards, hey, there's always more to learn here. I'd be curious. So you wrote the book. What sort of things have you thought about depression that are maybe different than what was in the book? Yeah, I don't think there's anything super concrete. I go back and forth with the whole question of how much control do we have? And I remember when I was writing the book, it was a very fresh idea and it was super humbling to admit this because I had always been a pretty defensive person about my depression and kind of like defending myself and saying,

I know what I'm talking about, blah, blah, blah. And that stuff isn't helpful. But I think as I was writing the book, it was, it was during a time where I was just like, wait a second. I think I do have a little more say in which direction my brain goes and where my thoughts go. Because every seven years, our, our church requires pastors to go on a month sabbatical. And the place where they send you, you get some free counseling. And it's a super gifted psychologist that I talked to. And he was so helpful in opening my eyes just to the ways my brain goes.

And he's just, I mean, helping me see those. Those just aren't right. Those aren't good thoughts. goes and he's just, I mean, helping me see those, those just aren't, those aren't right. Those aren't good thoughts. And so obviously that's going to open my eyes to be like, Whoa, wait a second. If this guy showed me that in like three hours, what are some other things I'm missing? And so, and you know, I was using that sabbatical to write this book. So I was like, man, this is, this is crazy. But that's, that's what I go up and down on. I do think we have more control than I originally thought, but I also am at a place where I think there's

sometimes it's just like, oh, there's nothing we can do. But I think that fluctuates. I don't think I'll ever know. I'm not sure if we can ever know how much control we have over our depression. if we can ever know how much control we have over, you know, our depression. Yeah. And I think depression has, you know, different levels of severity, right? Like, you know, I know people who have had, you know, depression that makes mine look like a stroll in the park. And so I'm always hesitant to be like, well, exercise and eating right, I'll do it for you. You know, like, I know for me, I have discovered for myself, the levers that I can pull that help, and I'm, I'm always looking for new ones to pull. So, you know, I believe it falls for myself somewhere in that middle ground of I do have some control. And then there are some things that are

not in my control. And, and sometimes that goalpost might even move, you know, this year versus last year. So it is a big mystery. We're nearing the end of time, but I wanted to touch on one more thing that you talked about in your book, and I really like this. So, you know, you're a pastor and you're being open about all this stuff is remarkable, right? And I think it's wonderful. You being open about the struggles and how life isn't easy, and you talk about how to be open. You've got some things in the end of the book. I think they might be for discussion groups, right? And you describe here's being open and here's not. So I'm just going to read these to you, you know, so this is being open.

I'm beginning to realize I rarely think I'm wrong and I end up belittling my life when we argue. I feel like crap about it, but feel so defensive. I don't know what to do about it. So that's one way of sharing and a useful way. And then you talk about the other way, which is this. I struggle with pride. And I loved that because the difference between those two things is really big.

I used to be so good at telling you about what I struggle with when I'm not struggling with it. After I'd figured out the about what I struggle with when I'm not struggling with it. Yeah. You know, after I'd figured out the answer, you know, I struggle with pride. But then what I did was that earlier statement is so much harder to do and yet so much more valuable for us and the people we're around. Totally. Yeah, it tickles me because when a bunch of Christians are together and they're like, hey, man, let's be transparent. Let's open up. Let's share struggles. When someone says, yeah, I'm really struggling with pride, I just want to say, no shit. Everybody struggles with pride. Are you kidding me? Can you get a little more specific? How does that impact your life? I mean, you show me someone that

doesn't struggle with pride, and I'll say, well, they're prideful for thinking that they don't struggle with pride. I mean, it's just crazy. But, yeah, I mean, I think the difference is in those two statements is obviously that's easy to say I struggle with pride. Yeah, we all do. But, man, that's not easy to say, yeah, because of my pride, I belittle the person that I should be the most loving with. Yeah. That's two different things because you're being vulnerable in a way of, here's what it looks like behind closed doors nobody else sees,

and you wouldn't know unless I'm telling you right now. That's transparency and that's being open, not just a... And honestly, maybe somebody would say, well, if you admit to wherever your beliefs lie, you probably see even this subject matter differently. But most Christians would say lusting after other people sexually would be a sin. So it would be easy for a guy to say, yeah, I've been having a hard time, you know, not keeping my eyes off women and that sort of thing. Totally different story to say, yes, I actually last night looked at pornography and masturbated

to it. And that's the latter is transparency. The former is just like, okay, that wasn't too hard to say. But that's the jacked up thing about Christianity. And honestly, a lot of pastors is the inability or unwillingness to be open because then pastors set themselves up to be this guy that everybody's aspiring to be like, and they're a fake. So it's just like the whole congregation is like, well, that's what we need to be more like. And it's like, yeah, but that guy's not even how you think that they are. And then when they fall into this big scandal or their sins are revealed and everything hits the fan and you're just like, oh my gosh, I can't believe this. It's just like, well, why did you think that person was perfect? Like, that doesn't make any sense. Yeah.

You know, I think a lot of people want easy answers. And so it's lovely to see somebody who seems to have it all together. And that's the convenient story. But I think for people who are really trying to change and be different, the type of openness that you're showing is really so much more valuable in living a real life. Now, some people are not going to like it, right? A lot of people just don't want to go there. They don't want you to go there, and they don't want to go there, and that's fine. But I think the value of that real openness about what's going on is so useful. I mean, I think, you know, I get lots of letters

and notes about our show, I mean, from people who were really in a hard place. And this does so much for them. And I think some of it is just knowing you're not alone in this stuff. Yeah. Community is something I think that we all need. And even we're kind of in a technological age. And so I think a lot of people would be so quick to say, well, that's super shallow. Listening to a podcast, that's not real community. I'm like, I mean, who's to say that is actually, like you said, just knowing that someone else is going through similar things, I mean, gives you so much strength and so much peace. I would encourage people to actually find relationships that could even go a little deeper, but for sure, that is very helpful

to hear that sort of thing. I love what you're doing because depression is definitely, you know, mental illness is definitely one of those things that it's just so taboo and people don't want to talk about, especially if they're going through it. You know, it's one thing for experts that have studied it to say, well, here's how certain things work and here's what a schizophrenic person is and all that. But to actually be a schizophrenic and say, here's what I deal with on a day to day, there's just not enough of that. No. And it's the ones like me who do struggle with mental illness and are reluctance to share, but it's also everybody else. It's, hey, people are reluctant to share because of how you're going to respond. You're going to see them as lesser humans and freaks and outcasts. And so it's just

this cycle that feeds into each other that needs to stop. Yep. Yep. I agree. And I love all the work that you're doing and the bad Christian stuff and all that. So I've had an absolute blast talking to you. I could do it a lot longer, but we are at the end of time. So thanks so much for coming on the show. We will have links to your podcast, your homepage, all that stuff in the show notes if anybody wants to visit. Awesome. Thanks. Appreciate it.

Yeah, man. It's good talking to you. All right. Take care. Bye. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a donation to the One You Feed podcast. Head over to oneyoufeed.net slash support.