The One You Feed - Josh Johnson on Humor and Healing

Episode Date: August 11, 2020

Josh Johnson is a comedian and an Emmy-nominated writer. He is currently a writer on The Daily Show with Trevor Noah and a former writer and performer on The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon. Josh was named New York’s Funniest Comic at the New York Comey Festival in 2018.In this episode, Josh Johnson and Eric talk about comedy and how humor can facilitate healing, understanding, and our connection with one another. But wait – there’s more! The episode is not quite over!! We continue the conversation and you can access this exclusive content right in your podcast player feed. Head over to our Patreon page and pledge to donate just $10 a month. It’s that simple and we’ll give you good stuff as a thank you!In This Interview, Josh Johnson and I Discuss Humor and Healing and…The duality of being humanUsing humor as a coping mechanism that can facilitate healingHow when you laugh you feel no painThat levity can strip something of its power over usWhat it means to be truly contentThe role of comedy in his lifeThe relationship between objectivity and comedyHow he’d rather try and fail on stage than not try something out of fearThe prevalence of mental health issues in comediansThe way humor can change our perspectivesHow he approaches depressive episodes in his own lifeHow skewed our feedback can be based on who surrounds usJosh Johnson Links:joshjohnsoncomedy.comYouTubeFacebookTwitterInstagramIndeed: Helps you find high impact hires, faster, without any long term contracts and you pay only for what you need. Get started with a free $75 credit to boost your job post and get in front of more quality candidates by going to www.indeed.com/wolfBest Fiends: Engage your brain and play a game of puzzles with Best Fiends. Download for free on the Apple App Store or Google Play.Talkspace: the online therapy company that lets you connect with a licensed therapist from anywhere at any time. Therapy on demand. Non-judgemental, practical help when you need it at a fraction of the cost of traditional therapy. Visit www.talkspace.com and enter Promo Code: WOLF to get $100 off your first month.If you enjoyed this conversation with Josh Johnson on Healing and Humor, you might also enjoy these other episodes:Pete HolmesPaul GilmartinSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

If you can understand people, you can make them laugh. If you understand what makes them tick, you'll understand what they enjoy. If you understand what they enjoy, you'll understand how to cure some of their ails because you'll know where they're coming from. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true.

And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Wolf. I'm Jason Alexander.

And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really No Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor what's in the museum of failure and does your dog truly love you we have the answer go to really no really.com and register to win 500 a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition signed jason bobblehead the really no really podcast follow us on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Josh was named New York's Funniest at New York Comedy Festival in 2018, and his story, Catfishing the KKK, has amassed over 8 million hits on YouTube. Hi, Josh. Welcome to the show.

Hey, thanks for having me. Pleasure to have you on. Let's start like we always do with a parable. There's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson. He says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and he thinks about it for a second. He looks up at his grandfather and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. I think it's very important that even though the parable is like a beautiful analogy of the duality with people, that it's not so simple as the one

that you're starving. So the one that you're not feeding doesn't necessarily go away. And it's very easy for us to look at an individual that's only feeding, you know, one wolf per se, and think that that's all there is to them when really, you know, maybe the other wolf is starving, but it's not exactly dead or gone or anything. And I think that at any time people can switch over whether whether we think that's good or bad is is in the eye of the beholder, I guess. But I do think that it's a reminder that there's a duality to being human and there's also like a duality to intention, you know, because sometimes you can be feeding one and not intending to and really be starving the other.

I like that a lot. That made me think as you were saying that of like looking at other people and almost believing that they're just bad versus realizing like, well, there's a good wolf in there. And your point of intention that most people who a lot of us might look at and go, well, that's bad. That person's intention still might be very good. It's just, what's your perspective? What's your position? Yeah. And I think that there's a hard line to

draw on good and bad. I think that most decisions either make you happy or unhappy and make other people happy or unhappy. And so I think that even in most of the things that we would consider bad or of like a more negative quality, it's mainly because they lead to unhappiness and unhappy decisions. It's not necessarily because the thing in and of its essence is bad, if that makes sense. Right, right. I'm just often struck by how underneath everything, we're all trying to be happy. And that's what everybody's trying to do. It's that we differ on strategy. You know, we differ on what makes happiness for us or for other people. But underneath it, if you look at most people, again, you can debate good and bad, how fixed they are versus how relative they are. But underneath it, everybody's trying to be happy. It's just that with a lot of people I look at and I go, that is a terrible strategy. Yeah. And I mean, there's also something to be said for that instant gratification that we've all been conditioned to addiction to, you know, I think that there are a lot of things short term to make you very happy and

pleasurable and fun. And then, you know, upon further inspection, you look at the grand scheme of things, you look at the entire playbook laid out and you see that this is actually a terrible idea. Right. Exactly. Yeah. You're a comedian. So I think the place I'd like to start this conversation is really looking at how we use laughter as a coping mechanisms. What are the

ways that we can use humor? You know, I often say that I think that levity should be listed as one of the virtues in life, that levity is a spiritual virtue. So let's talk about the role of humor as a coping mechanism. When you laugh, and especially when it's coming from a genuine place, you feel no pain, you know, like the act of taking something in that either someone said or did or happened and laughing at it and the general and genuine joy that you get from that thing is like so akin to like our nature and what's important about being human. And I think that it's something that is not just to like cope as a band-aid. It's something that like can change your outlook if you let it. One of the reasons that there are subjects that people think are too

precious or too sacred to laugh about is because they want to keep the veneer of austerity. I don't know if that would be the right way to word it, but they want to keep this general veil and idea preserved about what the thing is, how important it is, and how you're supposed to look at it. And when you laugh at something, you strip it of its power to a certain degree. And I don't think that we as people should be in a place where ideas, institutions and people have power over us as individuals. And I think that by making fun of things, especially when it comes from a place that brings it down to earth and makes it human, not just like poking fun to make fun and to be malicious. I think that the laughter and the joy and the camaraderie you feel with the other people laughing breathe a certain change in mindset that I think makes it easier to not just cope, but to move on from trauma. So do you think that laughter is not just a coping mechanism, but actually a healing

method? I think that there are certain ways that you can look at the world that are very, you know, pessimistic, sad, or optimistic and uplifting. And those mindsets, they almost program your responses before you have them. So I think that by having, like you said, like a layer of levity, that virtue of levity, I think that you're automatically bringing yourself into situations that are going to make it easier for you to get through because of your outlook and because of the way that you approach things. Most of what happens in the world is just stimulus. It's something that, to a certain degree, sociopaths look at the world as like, I don't know why I would be happy about this or sad about this or whatever. And we see it as a

very negative thing because we see sociopathic people as having an extreme chance of doing bad because they don't have any emotions about what would happen and the outcome. It doesn't matter to them. But when you pay close attention to, you know, like Zen literature, it almost comes from the exact place, but not from a perspective of telling people what to do. And you should just shouldn't care because what's happening is going to happen. It's more telling people the way to cope is that you're not trying to cope. You're not trying to cope with what happens because everything that happens is life. To cope would almost mean that I am supposed to be in a consistent, constant state of bliss and happiness and anything that interrupts that is bad and should

be avoided. And so I have to learn how to cope with the bad things to get me back to the good place because that's where I'm supposed to be all the time. And truthfully, life is like an ocean and you're in a boat and you're going up and down and you're getting tossed around and everything. And if life was on land in that scenario and that analogy, and then you got tossed by waves, yes, that would be insane. That would be terrible and you'd need to figure out a way to cope. But because your life is as tumultuous as it's going to be, Because your life is as tumultuous as it's going to be, because whether you believe in some sort of predetermined set of events, or if you just believe that life is happening as it happens, and it's all crazy, and it's all snapping by as it happens, you don't necessarily need to cope to get back to some sort of place. You need to learn to accept as everything is happening. And I think that levity lets us do that. You know, levity brings you back to almost a center of like,

hey, this is crazy, or this is good, or this is terrible, but also like, this is just happening. You know, like I had a joke I was doing for a little while before the lockdown started that was about how living in New York, you're around millions and millions of people all the time, every day, every time you go out. And every single day in New York is the best day of someone's life and the worst day of someone's life. And they're usually in the same room. Yeah, that's funny. You made me twice in like 40 seconds think of two separate songs by a band that I love called Dawes. I don't know if you're familiar with them, but there's two songs. One of them, there's a line that I love. The line is just things happen. That's all they ever do, which is a great line because he's sort of talking about somebody who's getting all bent out of shape about everything and thinking he's like, you know, things happen. That's just, that's all they ever do. And then the other line is he goes through this list of really amazing and terrible things happening. He says, all these things are happening right this second, less than five miles away,

which I think is an amazing sort of perspective. Now you led into all that by sort of correlating Zen and sociopaths. I've got to go back to that, partially because I'm a Zen student, and I'm hoping to get permission here to call my Zen teacher a sociopath. But let's talk a little bit more about that, because I think what you were saying was that a sociopath doesn't really see things as good or bad. It's just sort of neutral. And that's very much a Zen or a Buddhist idea, which is that things are good or bad. It's just sort of neutral. And that's very much a Zen or a Buddhist idea, which is that things are good or bad because we decide that they are. And that if we were to let go of that, if we were to let go of that grasping, I like this, I don't like this, I like this, I don't like this. If we let go of that grasping, we would suffer way less.

I think that's what you were saying. Yeah, it was. Yeah. how possible is the Buddhist view of the world for most of us. And by that, I mean, the idea, this is a vast oversimplification, but the vast oversimplification is if I could stop wanting, if I could stop saying, I like this, I don't like this, I would be perfectly happy. The first time I heard it, I went, that's brilliant. Yes. Then I look at what it's like to actually be a human. And I go, geez, that seems pretty deeply wired in, you know, and I then I start going down and I look in like a single cell organism and even a single cell organism at the most basic bedrock of life is going to go. That's good. I'll move towards it. That's food. Oh, that's toxic. That's bad. I'll move away from it. So that this is good. I want more of it. This is bad. I don't want to. It also seems baked into the very nature of our existence. So I'm just kind of curious your thoughts on that. Yeah, I mean, it is part of our biology. It's why, you know, we are attracted to attractive people.

Outside of whatever social and cultural norms you create, there's a deep, deep sense for us to procreate with a healthy mate. And to us, what is beauty is healthy. And so we look for those healthy mates. And so we want and we lust after them because somewhere in culture and society, our wires got crossed to where we don't necessarily do things for their instinctive purpose and we just do them for pleasure. So that does create like a sense of lust, a sense of wanting to like get a person or conquer them or get at them. And I think that to your example, if we were to get rid of that want, yes, we would cure the sort of like lust, unrequited love, all of these things that make us unhappy. But we wouldn't necessarily get rid of the deepest, deepest want that is to be human because it's from a biological

standpoint. And I don't think that it is our job. I'm not necessarily like a Zen student, but I've read a lot about it. I respect it a lot. And I do think that it's one of the best ways that you can live your life if you're trying to be less harmful and to be harmed less. I think that it's not necessarily our job to destroy all the parts of ourselves that we deem unhappy or bad, just like the two wolves never die. I think that there is something good.. I think a lot of good comes out of those less than perfect qualities that humans have, whether it's biological or it's like a personality thing. And so I don't think that even if we did get rid of the need for want, let's say we didn't live in a capitalist society and let's say we didn't need a hierarchy the way that even the monkeys do, I think that we would still have something that we needed that

even if it does create suffering, also created want. And that is what would keep us going. You know, I think that to a certain degree, if you completely destroy all of want, and you destroy the ego, then yes, you are not suffering as much. But I don't know if that would make you happy by default. I do think that it would make you super content. And I think that that's dope. Like, whenever you run into like a truly content person, it's one of the most enviable positions to be in, you know, because you're like, wow, wherever it is you are, no matter what I think about it, no matter what everyone says about it, you're genuinely happy. And that's actually attained by fewer people than attained wealth. of a species that species would die off. I mean, it just wouldn't survive. Some of what's built into us to survive is what drives us. And I find it interesting. There's a Buddhist teacher

who once said, our survival instinct is great for survival. It's just not real good for making us happy. It's wired these things into us. A certain amount of dissatisfaction makes you want to procreate, makes you want to eat. So I always find it interesting trying to balance this deep spiritual aspiration of hitting this point of no preferences with what's actually likely attainable. Otherwise, if we're not careful, we end up just always measuring ourselves against some spiritual ideal that we can't hit. That's just another way of feeling bad about ourselves. Yeah, you've just described most people's experiences with Catholicism,

you know? And I mean, also, I think that for everything that Zen does, what I really appreciate about it is that it's not necessarily preaching what should be, it just sort of lays out what is. necessarily preaching what should be. It just sort of lays out what is. And I think that by doing that, it's done itself as a movement, religion, philosophy, whatever you want to call it, has done itself a great favor in not actually being hypocritical because most of the things that it mentions cause suffering also cause people to learn Zen. A desire to change and a desire to understand is why someone would come to the class in the first place. So sure, if they already had it, maybe they wouldn't need it and maybe they wouldn't show up. But if they didn't partake in it, who would be able to both spread the message and also enjoy the message, you know, because I think that there are a lot of my friends that are very, very happy practitioners of Zen that are, in my opinion, like living that

enviable life because they are like, look, I have a couple things I do that I need to do to survive. So maybe I don't love my job every second of it. But you know what, I go to work and work provides me with this thing, which does make me happy. So I think it's a zero sum total of necessity and need and I'm having a great time with it. And someone that has that outlook is like, wow, that's amazing. Because so many people, especially growing up, like in America, so many people are trying to climb. Even people who are already on the upper echelon society are like trying to like climb or beat something. Even if they grew up a billionaire, they're trying to beat their dad's company. It's like, you know, so much desire, so much want, so much seeking. And I think that the seeking that brought some of my friends to where they are

actually ended up paying off, you know? So let's talk a little bit about you and what comedy has done for you in your life. In a weird way, it makes it sound like an institution or like a mentor or something. But truthfully, it's like changed everything. Like through comedy, I've been able to travel, I've been able to meet incredible people. It's, it's, it's how I've met some of my best friends. It's helped making me want to be a better person and like bring more of that compassion and levity to other people. And it's also made me study from a genuine place, both myself and other people, because if you can understand people, you can make them laugh. You know, if you understand what makes them tick, you'll understand what they enjoy. If you understand what they enjoy, you'll understand how to cure some of their ails because you'll know where

they're coming from. And then the more that you understand yourself, the more that you understand your reactions to things. And I think it's made me the type of person that looks at all sides of a thing because I think that a lot of jokes in the world are unfinished because they were just very one-sided and i think that for everything that you can make a joke about there's like an opposite joke that changes the angle and there's like a diamond's worth of angles to every joke and i think that to really start displaying a type of mastery in comedy you have to not necessarily have that perspective, but you have to be willing to completely change your approach and adapt it.

Because you look at comedy from the 40s, and it's like, the little bit that people do get is like slapstick. But there was like really funny social commentary being made at the time. But our society has changed enough where all that stuff is commonplace, you know? And I think that there's a lot to still grow and learn about each other through comedy. And I'm excited to be a part of that. In watching some of your comedy, and I think this is true of a good number of comedians, but certainly not all of them, you seem to zero right in on your own, this might be a stronger word than it needs to be, but your own wounds, your own places of

vulnerability, your own places of fear, you know, talk to me about how that works for you and whether that's a healing process for you. I think that for the comedian specifically, it can be a bit difficult because for myself as Josh, as a comic, I have to already be close to over something to share it with other people and put it out on stage and make jokes about it. So for me, the writing of it helps in the healing process. The actual performing of it is, I guess, therapeutic because I get to make a connection with someone who is laughing, which means they're agreeing and understanding where I'm coming from. But I also think that I make it about myself because there's a precarious stage that's been created due to

the current climate. So coming from a place now where it's very easy to offend people, it's very easy to be misunderstood. It's very, very easy for people to almost willingly misunderstand you and attack you. And I think that I separate myself and avoid 99% of that by making it about me. You can't get offended at my life. You can't get offended at my understanding of things or what it used to be, because I'm laying it all out for you. So if you want to get offended at it, that's fine. You have a beef with a person that no longer exists. And I think by me sharing the things that I'm going through or thinking about my fears and my hardships and anger and the way those manifest to make jokes, it then lets people connect with me with an open hand. Basically, what I'm trying to do by making the jokes about myself and my experiences is make it okay for the people who have been through the same thing to laugh and understand that someone either got through it or is going through what they went through or sees the thing the way they see it. But it also doesn't

push away or alienate the people who haven't been through what I've been through. So by just talking about myself, it's an open door to the experience, whether you're going through it or not, and then my reaction to it. So I still have a lot of time left in my career to talk about real trauma, real problems, and try to make them funny. For the most part, in the beginning catalog of my work, I stay mainly very silly and would talk about things I was just super, super over because it happened in high school, college, when I moved to Chicago, little things, living in New York, stuff like that. And as I mature, I've been veering into more, I wouldn't say dicey territory, but just like more

strange and controversial topics, you know, and I don't do that to be inflammatory or to get a rise out of people. I do it because as a person, I'm just now coming in contact with a way to articulate these things and people will understand where I'm coming from and not just saying it to say it. Thank you. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor.

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or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you think that the things that you are willing to write about and then perform, you said you kind of have to be in a place where you're sort of over them. Do you think that it's often the writing of it and the joking about it that gets you over it? Or do you have to get over it first to get to a point where you can do that? Or a little of both? I do think it's different for every person. I know some people who genuinely exercise all their Davids on stage and it can be beautiful and it can also be a train wreck, depending on their level of experience and their level of like mastery with communicating ideas. willing to try to figure out in front of an audience because I would rather kick myself and be disappointed in how the performance went later because I tried rather than still being nervous to try it again. I had experience in Chicago. It's so silly now, but in my 22-year year old mind at the time, it was like life changing. But basically I was in this comedy competition, very like low level, like, dude, this is like

a bar show. This is like, this is not a big deal at all. But I was told by the organizer and, and maybe even another person that was supposed to be clean, right? You had to be completely clean. And then like first person went up and they weren't clean at all. They were like actually super clean. And then like, first person went up and they weren't clean at all. They were like actually super dirty. And then the second person was, and the third person was, and then the host kind of tried to remind them. But then like,

as the night went on, even the host started like getting dirty because it was just too hard to get people's attention and get laughs in the room outside of like doing that thing. And then I went up and I did my set and I stayed clean. And like, I had a couple of jokes that I wanted to do that weren't necessarily dirty, but they weren't in that like family friendly, whatever cookie cutter clean thing, which I don't know why we were doing. Cause there were no kids and it wasn't like a Christian of it. It was at a bar. So I was like, I don't even know why. And then after the competition, I had to leave to do another show. And so apparently I won, but I didn't get to win because I wasn't there to like accept it. And they

thought that was embarrassing. So they just gave it to second place or whatever. And then later on, I saw a comic who also did the show that was like, I know that you could have done better. Like, even though you won, I know you could have done better and you held yourself back. And even though you did well, I know you could have done better and you wanted to do better because I could see it on your face while you're on stage. And ever since then, I've been of a mind that it's better that I just go ahead and try and maybe fail than to not try and be like, well, I'll do the joke next time I'm on stage or let me write, let me add some more thought to the writing, whatever. I think it's okay to just like trip up, you know? Yep. Just be willing to go for it and fail versus not try it. Makes me think of at a certain point

in life, I hit this place where I was like, you know what? I think the pain of being rejected would be less than the pain of continuing to be a chicken when it came to like asking girls out. I was like, you know what? All right, I'm going to swap the pain out here. I might get rejected, but I just can't live with not trying anymore. Yeah, a hundred percent. And also there's definitely something to be said for as much rejection as you fear you're

going to get in real life, you're going to get like maybe a tenth of that and that's with all the trying in the world like when i when i go up like i i've started because comedians talk about bombing like when you truly like fail on stage in front of everyone so you either get no laughs or you get booed or you like turn the audience against you, whatever. And I found that for me, the bomb has started to just be not creating the vibe that I wanted to create or not like, so, so you'll always have some sort of a critique of yourself. And even as you get better at things, that critique actually just rises. It's one of the things that, you know, Zen actually helps people start to move away from and eliminate because you're always going to have your demons chasing you if you never address them. So one of my demons definitely is wanting

to put on like perfect performances all the time. And I found that I actually rarely fail as much as I think I'm going to. And I get rewarded for taking chances because then a joke that in my heart, I felt was ready, but maybe I wasn't ready to do when I actually tried it and it got all the laughs. I'm like, wow. Okay. Not only did they accept it, but they liked it. And that's coming from me putting myself out there because we're all adults now. If you're at a comedy club and people pay to see you, no one is paying to be nice to you. They came to see a good show. So if you give them that good show, they're going to be appreciative and they're going to like, let you know that they are coming from the same place as you, you know? And so fear of rejection definitely stopped me from doing a lot

of things and halted me before. And I think that as I get older, you just start to care less, you know, you, you become like those old guys at the gym who like don't even wear a towel anymore. They're just like, yeah, yeah, I'm here. Look at it. What are you going to do? Yep. Yep. I'm not old, but I'm getting in that neighborhood. I can certainly speak to like, yeah, it's like, wow. All right. I never would have dreamt of doing that when I was 25, but at 40, 48, well, who cares? I suddenly am more able to look at certain old men and be like, I can see how he ended up near that outfit. You know, 10 years ago, I'd be like, what, what would cause you to possibly look like that? And now I'm like, well,

I don't know. I can't, I'm starting to see the thought process a little bit. Yeah. So let's talk about mental health and comedians. That's not a subject that doesn't come up from time to time that, you know, comedians have mental health issues. Is it mental health that makes people want to go into comedy? But let's talk about depression specifically and the role of dealing with depression as a comedian, particularly a performing comedian. Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot to be said for the different aspects of depression in the brain, whether it's a chemical imbalance or whether it's, you know, a culture that has surrounded you and is trying to not in a way that is a conspiracy,

but just in a way of how we're surrounded by both like social media expectations and, and the expectation to rise as you get older in a capitalist society, all of those things can begin to like ring the joy out of a person like a rag, because then it just feels like it's your job to be happy, to make everyone else happy. It's your job to not have problems. It's your job to fix all those problems when they come along. And I think that that's why we're looking at a country and a nation of people who are struggling with their mental health because of the parameters we've set ourselves up in to live. As a comedian, I like to think that I help with

easing some of that by both poking fun at it and reminding people that all of these pillars of society that you're supposed to adhere to in order to be an adult or be a man or be like a worthy person of friends and family. All those things are made up and different cultures have totally different expectations and are going through their own version of those same things. And I think that in full examination of the world around you and the way that it works, it's very easy to get discouraged and it's very easy to get overwhelmed. And I think that's why a lot of comedians deal with their own forms of depression. If you sat someone in a room and had them examine everything for 24 hours a day, including themselves, I think you would get a depressed person to a certain degree. If you're paying close attention

to everything that's happening in the world, a lot of it is positive, but a lot of it is not. And I think trying to combat that, especially with something that can sometimes feel so as useless as a joke, you know, like I think that a comedian's job is important, but I'm not delusional enough to think I'm a doctor or like a lawyer that could file someone's appeal and help them get out of jail if they're wrongly convicted. Like, I mean, I feel like I'm armed with the power of ideas, but I'm mostly powerless in a world that is like completely concentrated, run by and obsessed with power. And so I think comedians have a big struggle with finding their place in social commentary and finding their niche of like, what success means to them and how much of that is necessary in order to like convey their message or make them happy. And I think that even with like, my own levels of depression and everything, like I said, writing the joke and coming to conclusions about it, especially ones that are

funny and make other people laugh, it takes some of the power away from my situation and it uses that power to make other people laugh and bring levity to their life. But I think that along that road, especially when it's not working, it can be an even more bitter one to travel down because now let's say, you know, I used to always say that if I try to be so honest on stage sometimes that if I bomb, that's just a thing a bunch of strangers know about me now. Right. Like, now we're just in it together because now you didn't think it was funny and it happened. So I don't know where we go from here. And I mean, to a certain degree, the same way that people have the stereotype of actors going to acting because they want attention.

I think that there's a stereotype about comedians that I am not sure is wholly untrue, that there's nothing mentally healthy about airing out your laundry for the approval of a bunch of strangers. This is essentially a lot of what we talk about, especially the ones of us who are very raw, should just be said to a clinical Wong has done tremendous things for not just women in comedy, but women to have aspects of their lives and their pregnancies and their attitudes that are finally addressed by someone that they admire, that has the confidence to stand in front of thousands of people and talk about it from their own perspective. And then that person goes out into the world and maybe they have a little bit more confidence about it. I think that so much pain and so much aggression and misunderstandings just come from a place of not knowing, not so much not accepting. So when comedians bring up things as a joke that normally would start a fistfight at a Thanksgiving table, you do walk away with that understanding. You laughed at it, and maybe it changed your perspective on a thing

that you thought you were decided on. Because especially if a person can make a joke catchy and repeatable to the point where you're like a George Carlin, where people are repeating your joke at a party, commentary or thought, I think that that permeates the culture. And not to say that comedians should be like lauded or all of us should receive millions of dollars. I mean, that'd be nice, but I understand that that's like a lofty dream. I just wish that people did recognize how much of what comedians say permeates the culture and the responsibility that we take in addressing our own and the world's mental health when we're either talking about it or not talking

about it. For some comedians, just being up there is like a champion of their fears of their mental health state because they have depression and they couldn't get out of bed this morning. And maybe someone did have to drag them to the comedy club or to their show. And they share their gift freely with the rest of the world, even though they're in deep, deep pain. And it's a testament, just like you see those Olympic runners who maybe pull the calf muscle in practice, and they still show up to the Olympics and run for a gold medal. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast,

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It's called Really No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you think that comedians are drawn to comedy because of underlying issues, or do you think that ask myself, you know, at a certain point as a teenager, like, is it the depressing music I'm listening to that's making me depressed? Or am I drawn to the depressive music? Because I'm already depressed. Like, what's the relationship here? Is listening to the Smiths bad for me? Is it healing? It's I can't quite tell. Yeah, I think it's a little bit of both of the things that you listed, because I think that people, they do generally work in spirals.

The same way that you talk about feeding the wolf, it's like, well, look, if you have two and you feed one, now the one that you fed has the energy the next time you're at the cave or whatever to come back and run up to you first and take the next meal and the next meal and the next meal while the other side is starving. So I think that a lot of comedians, like I know I was definitely depressed a lot as a kid and young adult. And, you know, I still, I still have my bouts. And I think that I was a specific case because I felt at least like comedy was the only thing I was good at. So then it felt like a no brainer to try to like, make it work one way or another, no matter what. But I also think that comedy can exacerbate those things because you have so much riding on your perspective, you live and die by your word. And when people misunderstand it, or they just don't get it, it does hurt. People's fear of public speaking is slightly rational. It does suck very much for a group of people to just stare at you like, what are you

talking about? That's a terrible feeling. And especially the way that comedy used to work, because in those rockstar days of Sam Kennison, Mark Maron's old sort of front half of his career where everyone was doing drugs and like clubs and bars and didn't necessarily have cash. So they would try to pay you in drinks, which like still kind of happens today from time to time. It's like, why do you think there are so many alcoholics doing comedy? It's like they get paid in drinks. So not only did they take all of their pain, and sometimes it's not pain. There are a lot of comics who stay very silly,

who are very funny, who don't touch on social issues at all. And I respect and love, but they still took all of their brain power, all of their intellect to create something that lots of people enjoyed. And maybe because they're not business savvy enough or because they're not greedy enough or because they're desperate, they didn't get a cut in all those people showing up to enjoy their work or maybe no one showing up

at all. And so now they're paid for it with a beer. And it's like this little level of distraction is all of your efforts are worth. It can feel that way, you know, like because I don't drink. So I've had people try to pay me in beers and I'm like, well, I guess you're just not paying me. I don't know what we're going to do about this. So, you know, I think that comedians are drawn to comedy both because it lifts a lot of the aspects of depression, but also because it can be that extra downward spiral that you need. Some people ride comedy like it's taking them somewhere, but it really is you driving the car. So you'll see comedians who have a tough time, and then all their jokes are full of venom and spite and anger. And it's like, all right,

that's what you turn the comedy into, because that's what you thought either thought was funny or what you're feeling. You don't care if it's funny or not. And then you see people get to such a happy place that all their jokes are just like completely light. And it's like, that's what they created with it, you know? So what about you in your own life? Like, do you use strategies, emotional strategies or self-help strategies to deal with your depression? I definitely come to an understanding about myself that I almost need to time things out. Like I'll feel a certain way about something or even better yet, I'll be in a mood, right? So I'm

in a mood and I've at least been lucky enough to surround myself with good people and been alive long enough to have those moments where I'm like, all right, I'm in a mood. Maybe it'll pass. Maybe it won't. But for right now, I'm not going to act on anything with this mood in mind, you know? So if that means I stay in all day, I stay in all day. If that means I have to go somewhere, then I will go, but I'm just going to be very aware of myself. And it's one of the things that I got out of reading a lot of Zen back in the day when I lived in Chicago, because it was one of the first things that really captured me and wasn't in any argument with. So there are lots of sacred texts,

lots of religious writings or self-help books, whatever, that because you're reading, the way that reading works, when you're reading, you're talking in your head. You hear your own voice reading the thing in your head. But when it's something that you don't agree with or something that's annoying or something you don't believe or something you don't understand, it creates an argument in your head. It creates this like, well, no, that doesn't make any sense. That's crazy. Why would you? And Zen writings were the first thing that I read where there was no argument.

Not because I agreed with it, but because there was nothing to be agreed with or fought against. It just was. It was like, are you unhappy? with it, but because there was nothing to be agreed with or fought against, you know, it just was, it was like, are you unhappy? If you're not unhappy, then, Hey, you're fine. But if you are unhappy, maybe this is something that you could do about it. Maybe it's not, maybe you have a different path. And it just felt like talking to someone who actually understood, you know, it felt like talking to someone because, because sometimes people can be so close to you and love you so much. This is a thing that happens with every single person, but it also happens with comedians sometimes where people love you so much that they won't let you bomb. So if your friends are there,

they're going to laugh at your joke, even if it's not funny, even if they heard a hundred times, but then the people who don't know you are giving you the honest reaction of nothing. This isn't funny or I don't get it. And it's a trap that some people get in in comedy, especially in that open mic stage, because you're an open micer, you make friends with a bunch of open micers, then you almost start playing to the room. You start playing to your friends as opposed to playing to the crowd and trying to get better as a comic. The same thing happens with life. So you can surround yourself with people who love you so much that they won't let you fail. They won't tell you when you're wrong. They won't tell you the hard things that you have to do, how to fix them. And they'll make excuses for you.

And if you live in that, then you're never going to improve as a person. You're never going to be happier as a person because you're never going to address anything that you do that's making you unhappy. And it felt like when I was reading those Zen meditations, that it was the first time that someone was not judging, but also not hyping me up. You can read a lot of self-help books that are like, you deserve to be happy. up. You can read a lot of self-help books that are like, you deserve to be happy. And it's like, look, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but maybe not everybody deserves to be happy. There are people doing terrible things in the world, and maybe they do deserve to feel sad about them for a little while because it proves that they're human and that they have a conscience. So there are definitely

people who give you loving advice that's coming from the wrong place. You see it a lot with friends. Friends give some of the worst dating advice you can imagine because not only are they not dating the person you're dating, but you've never dated them and they've never dated you to see what type of partner you are. So then you tell them the scenario. You obviously tell them with bias because you're upset. And they tell you the scenario, you obviously tell them we're biased because you're upset. And then they tell you, no, you deserve better than that. But they weren't there. Yeah, totally. So now you go back hyped up and you make it worse because your friend was

like, no, doc, you better than that. Don't take it. And comedy does the same thing sometimes. And I think that levels of depression can work in that same way where the things that feel good and normal and familiar that you're attracted to, sometimes they led to your depression. Sometimes they just don't get you out of it. And when I was reading these texts, it was the first time that I was like, wow, okay, this is my plan thus far. It may change and it may not even be a good plan and I may have to adapt it. But when I get depressed, I'm going to take a second, even if it is literally just one second and be like, this is where you are and then deal with it from there. And sometimes

that leads to me making really good decisions and being very pragmatic. And other times it leads to me not taking enough action. But at least if I'm honest with myself and aware of myself, I can move forward in a way that I won't regret later. I can proudly say that ever since I've read those books, and I've had long bouts without reading any Zen writings, anything, had long bouts without reading any Zen writings, anything like I'm not a Buddhist or anything. But I can tell you that when I was 22, 23, and I was reading, I was just devouring all these books about it. Even though I haven't read them as much since, it really changed my life in the way of taking a step back, even sometimes in the moment, giving it a good think. And I've had way less outbursts. I've had way less downward spirals. And I think that that's mainly due not

just to maturity and getting older and caring about different things, but also because I set that mindset at such an early adult age that now it's how I plug into everything. Yeah. Yeah, totally. You made me think of a bunch of different things there. One of them was there's always this balance with the people in our lives. And I run into this as a coach. I coach people for a living, right? All right. You know, I've got to understand you. I want to make you feel understood. I want to make it okay to be where you are. And I think you might need a little, you know, you might need to be pushed a little bit or pulled a little bit, you know, and I think it's always, it's always a challenging balance to do with,

with people we care about is like, all right, you know, commiserate, but also at what point do you advocate for a different perspective, a change of action, behaving differently, all of that. It's such a nuanced thing to know the right thing to do. like go to therapy, let's say, and, you know, don't always recognize that their therapist is just another person. And it's just, and it's just trying to navigate both their own life and how to help people. And so sometimes whether it's due to the form of therapy, the person doing the therapy, I've seen people almost have that same like misplaced hyped up response to stimulus as as if their friend gave them some bad advice because i don't know how rooted in psychology it's been since talk therapy was introduced but there's for many a distinct belief that if people talk things out enough they'll come to the right conclusion themselves yeah and it's like look, I think plenty of people can do that. But I think depending on the person in the situation, you do have to step in sometimes and be like,

because you're looking at it this way, you're always going to veer off because of the initial seed that you planted of this isn't my fault, or everyone else around me is against me or whatever thought that is. And don't get me wrong. Sometimes people are right. Like, like the way that I always try to air out things with my friends when they have grievances, uh,

not necessarily with me, but just with their world or their partner or whatever is I always am like, look, there is a case that you're right. What are you going to do about that? You know, even if you're right, where are you going to do about that? You know, even if you're right, where are we going to move from here? If the entire point of this fight is to be right, then let's pretend you're already there because you think you are. So how are you going to be

happy now? You know? And I think that that is where I try to be. And that's where comedy has brought me is that I looked out at the world and I saw this, especially when I was really little, like really young, I saw this like super unfair, super racist, super evil, misogynistic, painful world. And then as I got a little bit older and started like, whether it's reading like your Bible or the Zen teachings or Quran or just psychology books for people who are agnostic or atheists, anything like that, whatever you do to try to seek out some form of understanding about the world around you, I think that when you do it with an honest and genuine intention, you're going to find something that you can resonate with. And for me, that was

comedy more so than anything else. You know, it was like, comedy is how I deal with how unfair the world is. And it's how I point out all the great things about the world, you know, because like, you if you just watch mainstream news, and you just stay in tune with the legislative branch and you just stick to all the factual matter of factly things about the world. It looks like a bleak place, but inside and behind and around all of those things are beautiful, perfect examples of a wonderful human nature and a great place to live your life. You know, like this earth isn't perfect, but it's a nice place to be, especially if you make an effort to make it one. I think that is a great place to wrap it up. I love that.

Underneath, around, behind, there's always beauty. Yeah, I love that. So thank you so much for taking the time to come on. It has been a real pleasure talking with you. I do appreciate it. Thanks for having me, Matt. I hope I didn't talk your head off. No, that's the point of this. That's the point. Yeah, great to meet you. Yeah, thanks again. It's been a real pleasure. Take care. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a monthly donation to support the One You Feed podcast.

When you join our membership community with this monthly pledge, you get lots of exclusive members-only benefits. It's our way of saying thank you for your support. Now, we are so grateful for the members of our community. We wouldn't be able to do what we do without their support, and we don't take a single dollar for granted. To learn more, make a donation at any level, and become a member of the One You Feed community, go to oneyoufeed.net slash join. The One You Feed podcast would like to sincerely thank our sponsors for supporting the show. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden.

And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure? And does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead.

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