The One You Feed - Kelly Wilson on Being Liberated from Anxiety

Starting point is 00:00:00 My vulnerability seemed to me to be the enemy, and I tried ever so hard to make it go away. And when I made peace with it, it ended up being the center of my career. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like, garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do.

Starting point is 00:00:44 We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like

Starting point is 00:01:26 why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to reallyknowreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. The Really Know Really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Kelly Wilson, an associate professor of psychology at the University at Mississippi. He's past president of the Association for Contextual Behavioral Science and winner of the University of Mississippi's prestigious LCM Hood Outstanding Teacher Award.

Starting point is 00:02:06 Dr. Wilson is one of the co-developers of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, also known as ACT. Today, Kelly and Eric discuss his book, Things Might Go Terribly, Horribly Wrong, A Guide to Life Liberated from Anxiety. Hi, Kelly. Welcome to the show. Well, it's good to be here. I am glad to have you on. We're going to talk a little bit about your book, which I love the title of, called Things Might Go Terribly, Horribly Wrong, A Guide to Life Liberated from Anxiety. And we certainly will be spending a fair amount of time talking about acceptance and commitment therapy, also known as ACT, for which you are a significant contributor. But we'll start like we always do with the parable. There is a grandfather who's talking

Starting point is 00:02:50 with his grandson. He says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and he thinks about this for a second. He looks up at his grandfather and says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. I'm not personally super enamored of the idea of a war inside,

Starting point is 00:03:26 although it's not incomprehensible to me. You know, I know what it is like, you know, to feel as though I have a war inside of me. And I certainly remember a time in my own life when I was sure that, you know, the worst of the players were winning. You know, for me, I got peace, a measure of it when I let go of the war. I do know the piece of that parable that strikes me is that we're always practicing in life. And what we practice gets stronger. And I practiced running away for a very, very, very long time and have been practicing sitting still and moving towards things. And it's gotten stronger, you know, so I suppose that that is what it means to me. Excellent. Well, I agree with you that the parable has its value and certainly its limitations.

Starting point is 00:04:17 Let's talk a little bit about problems in life. And so you say that through the lens of ACT, problems in life such as anxiety look a little different than we might be used to. Instead of seeing a problem like anxiety as something we have, like a virus or a broken bone, ACT describes these problems in terms of our ability to function in six process areas. So before we go into the process areas, let's talk about that view as a whole. Not that I have anxiety, but that some certain ways of functioning, let's say mentally or psychologically, I may need a little tweak in a couple areas versus having, like you said, like a virus. You know, I suppose the idea that people with psychological struggles in order to be legitimately understood as having struggles, you know, have to have some kind of

Starting point is 00:05:11 disease label that troubles me, you know, it starts with this sort of metaphor that, you know, your problem in life is that you're somehow broken inside. I don't mean at all to discount that human experience is extraordinarily varied and, you know, that we don't all carry certain kinds of vulnerabilities, some of which are very hard to carry, very poorly understood by people around us. And it's very easy to make an enemy of them. That is the piece that I object to in all of that. I think this is an interesting topic because sometimes a diagnosis can be liberating, right? A diagnosis can be liberating like, oh, okay, there's this thing and it provides me some context and it gives me a frame of reference and maybe now that we know what the

Starting point is 00:05:57 problem is, we can work on it. And yet diagnoses are ultimately then, depending on how they're interpreted, become limiting. I wouldn't take anything away from that. And I know that there are communities out there like my good friend Lisa Coyne does work in OCD, and there's a whole kind of community around people supporting one another. You know, when I look at when people get a diagnosis and they get a kind of an experience of relief, usually, you know, what I hear in that is I'm not alone. Yes. It's not just me. Yes. And, you know, I want to say to people, like, say you're somebody who's suffering, but you don't have a diagnosable disorder. Well, you're also not alone. Like a diagnosis can be an instrument.

Starting point is 00:06:46 It can be sometimes use usefully, um, engaged and people do community building around. I don't have a problem with that. And more and more people, I think are thinking of this kind of more in terms of things like neurodiversity and that kind of language, which'm much more at home you know i'm much more at home with yeah yeah like me i'm not the anxious sort you know i always sort of half joke with people that you know i'm the more moody depressive sort of myself me too anxious people are afraid bad things are going to happen you know people like me you know they've already happened you know and and even if they do who cares you know well you know i know for myself that um i'm like i'm extraordinarily easy to hurt i mean especially like in a social exchange. You can send me to tears with a word, you know.

Starting point is 00:07:46 And as a boy growing up in the, you know, 1950s and 1960s, oh, my goodness. I'm small. I got a girl's name and I cry, you know, at the drop of a hat, you know. My vulnerability seemed to me to be the enemy. And I tried ever so hard to make it go away. And when I made peace with it, it ended up being the center of my career. Yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:08:17 You say this in the book. You say that when we look at problems with living this way, we start to see that there's actually some really common threads that run through the whole cloth of human suffering, of human experience on the whole. And I think there's a couple values there, right? What I find interesting about that, I agree, I see that too. And I find it so interesting that we will say that one potential intervention, let's just take exercise, right? Exercise helps like a ton of different things, which tells you there's some degree of commonality running around here. The other thing that you said there that I really relate with is, you know, I'm a recovering alcoholic and heroin addict. I don't really go to 12 step a whole lot. It saved my life and it

Starting point is 00:08:58 meant so much to me, but I eventually got tired of dividing the world into us and then what they used to say all the time, normies. And I went, I think that's a false distinction. I think the problems that plague me as an alcoholic, whether they be over sensitivity or selfishness or various things, they plague everyone. And I think it helped me to feel more a part of the human community when I saw that. And one of the things you do in the book so well is you paint the idea, without being gloomy, how ubiquitous human suffering is, and how that by certain measures, one out of every two people

Starting point is 00:09:39 will have suffered some degree of deep psychological pain at some point. And that's a really interesting way. You have an exercise in the book where you're like, just go out to the next party. Be like, one, two, one, two, one, two. And you all of a sudden realize that these barriers that we put up to distinguish ourselves from different people, oh, I have anxiety, oh, I have depression, oh, I have alcoholism. These things start to break down a little bit. Yeah, I just find it a helpful way to look at life. They're useful when and where they're useful. I mean, alcoholism and heroin addiction, check, check. I'm there. You know, one of the things that I've heard people talk about coming out of 12-step meetings sometimes, and they'll say, well, that's alcoholic thinking or that's addictive thinking. And I have a theory on why people think that. It's because they go into these rooms and the people in the meetings, they say the stuff that's going through their heads. And people hear it and they think, oh, man, that's how I think.

Starting point is 00:10:44 And then they leave the meeting and nobody's talking about that. Yes. their heads, you know, and people hear it and they think, oh man, that's how I think, you know, and then they leave the meeting and nobody's talking about that in their out loud voice. And they assume that it's only those people in those meetings. You know, it wasn't, you know, until I'd spent a few years in clinical psychology when I, you know, and I started to listen to people who were, you know, not addicts, but they were depressed or they were anxious or they were whatever they were. And it's sort of like, oh, no. And that number you pointed to, Kirk Strassel cites in his book on suicidality years back, where he talked about in some community samples, something like 40 to 50 percent of the people surveyed at some point in their life experienced such a level of just hopelessness that they seriously considered ending their own life. Not as a fleeting thing, but spend a couple of weeks where they thought about it, maybe with a plan, maybe not, but serious. And that's where that exercise, that one, two, and I have literally sat with clients on a bench in a public place and just said, you know, leaned over and said, you know, like, look into these people's faces, you know, and like, which one, you know, one, two, one, two, one, two, that one.

Starting point is 00:12:26 It changes you, you know, you sit on a park bench and you count those faces and you just wonder what the flavor of that hardship that they've known and they won't show it. I've asked people that in big, big workshops, you know, and I asked them, how many people did you tell? And far and away, the most common number of people that anyone has told about their own suicidality is zero. That's a really great point about AA. And that's one of the beautiful things about 12-step programs is that you walk in and you're like, holy mackerel, like people are talking about the real stuff, you know? And your point is exactly right, because you go back out into the world and nobody's talking about it. And then it's easy to assume like, well, it's only the people in there that have that. But I think that in a way of feeling less alone in the world and of having greater compassion in the world, it's important to broaden beyond our diagnosis. I think, again, our diagnosis can help build community. It can help join us together.

Starting point is 00:13:01 It can help us not feel so alone. But in the longer run, I find it more empowering to realize most people suffer to some degree or other. Life is life. It just delivers the blows. You know, many years ago, I worked in a place for intellectual disabilities and there was a guy there who was part of an organization called People First. And it was an organization for folks with intellectual disabilities. And I remember him explaining it to me. You know, it was just this plaintive kind of, we're people first. And to bring home that the people in this group were more like you than

Starting point is 00:13:37 were not like you. And I remember at the time and still, it moved me that these labels can sometimes stand in for people and they don't tell us how rich those people are. You know, sometimes the label almost obscures the person. I don't know if we'll get through all of them, but I'd like to explore the six process areas that make up acceptance and commitment therapy. I'm just going to read what they are real quick just to put them all out there. And then we'll just kind of see how our discussion goes.

Starting point is 00:14:07 One of the things that's important to know is, you know, you guys just say that, you know, each of these process areas is sort of like the facets of a gem. If you peer in through one, you'll see the other five reflected. So it's not like we're going to go in order because they're not in order. And we're just going to see as we start talking about one, it's going to lead us into the other. And who knows where that will take us. But at least I'll get them out there. And then we'll go from there. So the first one is just contact with the present moment. The other one is diffusion. And we've talked about diffusion on this show, but the ability to get a little bit of distance from our thoughts. The third is acceptance, the ability to sort of accept the aspects of our life as they are. The fourth is values, being able to choose what matters and what's important to us. The fifth is committed action, the ability to actually take positive action towards what our values are. And then the sixth, which is perhaps the most mysterious, is self as context, the ability to see ourselves as a dynamic and evolving setting

Starting point is 00:15:06 in which our life unfolds. So we'll go into those. But I'd like to start with something that ACT often talks about. And it's something that I agree with 100% when I hear it in principle. And then when I look at it in my own life, and I at it in others' lives, I go, I don't know, right? And it's this idea that the goal isn't symptom reduction. The goal, or so in this case, the goal is not the overcoming of anxiety. The purpose of this work is to make more room in which to live a life that matters to you. And I get that at its basic level, right? And I get that at its basic level, right?

Starting point is 00:15:49 And I get the idea that the goal is that I decide what's important to me and I live that way and that these symptoms don't stop me from doing that. So, for example, if anxiety is the thing I'm mostly concerned with, right, my anxiety doesn't stand in the way of me doing things that matter to me, like going to spend time with family or getting on a plane to go to an event that I love. We don't go into experiential avoidance. We don't avoid things. So again, in principle, I'm 100% on board. What I've seen in practice is yes, and boy, when we're deep in symptoms, like I've got a client, you know, God bless him. He works hard and he does not let his issues stop him from going. So he'll describe it like I got myself

Starting point is 00:16:31 to jujitsu class. And then the entire time I was there, I was so anxious and miserable that like, I might as well not have gone. So I'd just be interested in your initial thoughts on that little riff I did there. One thing is that, you know, like the word acceptance, I don't even use the word acceptance with people until they really, really get to know me, you know, because when I say acceptance, what they hear is not what I mean. It's just not, you know, and I mean, even graduate students, it probably takes them a couple of years before they, you know, before it sort of penetrates what I mean by acceptance, you know, because they think acceptance means, you know, thoughts of acceptance or feelings of acceptance or something like that. And of course, that is not at all what I mean. that you described that. I don't know that it's inaccurate, but if I sit in here and like in the middle of the deep, dark depression and you say that to me, it's just going to feel invalidated.

Starting point is 00:17:32 Right. You know, I'm just going to like say, you know, if you know what I know, you would not say that shit to me, you know, make me feel better. Yeah. Make me feel better. Yeah. Make me feel better. Like, here's the thing. Some kinds of things are really amenable to direct action and to trying harder. You know, like, you choose the action, you try harder, and that forwards the action. And some things just aren't like that. And I think most people can understand that. You know, usually, like, I'll ask people, like, do you dance? You know, and if they dance, then I'll ask them, what happens when you're dancing and you start thinking about, you know, which foot you move next? And, you know, you start thinking about each dance step. And what happens is you start to look like me when I'm dancing, you know.

Starting point is 00:18:34 Ask like a guitar player or something like that who is playing. They cannot think about each note because if they think about each note and, you know, the picking pattern or something like that, you can't do it and think about it at the same time. And you can try harder. But I had a traumatic baseball history from when I was a kid. I played Little League baseball for four years. And I hit the ball one time in four years, you know, and I asked my dad about it, because he was our coach, you know, he was a good guy. And I said, you know, Dad, I tell people this story that I hit the ball only once in four years. But it was a long time ago. And I'm not sure if that's right. And he says to me, one time he says, yeah, that's about plus or minus.

Starting point is 00:19:20 And it was because, you know, like I'm up there and I want to hit the ball. And I'm thinking, keep the bat up off your shoulder, you know, step into it. Don't step in the bucket. Keep your eye on them. And all these rules are buzzing around in my head and the ball just goes whizzing by, you know. So some things just don't seem to respond very well to that. to that. People can also understand the idea of openness to experience better when you ask them questions about what they care about, what matters to them. And like in a world where they could move ahead in their life, what would they move towards? What swells their heart? See, I want to ask people those kinds of questions. People can understand

Starting point is 00:20:05 sacrifice for something valuable. People can understand pain in the service of valued action. So I want to have a conversation, you know, before I ever start talking about acceptance, I want to talk to people about what they lay their life down for. And from that place, about what they lay their life down for. And from that place, then I want to have a conversation with them about practices that we can cultivate, that we can try and see if those practices don't make movement possible.

Starting point is 00:20:36 There's a certain informed consent at the front end of a therapy that you have to do. And so, you know, I'll just tell people, they come in and their head is buzzing with difficult thoughts, and they're buzzing with all the difficult emotions,, I'll tell people they come in and their head is buzzing with difficult thoughts and they're buzzing with all the difficult emotions. And I'll tell them there are some people who do types of therapy that directly target the reduction of these. That's not the kind of work that I do. If you want someone who does that, I know people who do that and I can make a referral.

Starting point is 00:21:03 There's another approach to therapy and it has to do with what do you love? What do you love? How would your life move in a world, you know, where you could choose a direction for it? And then we start to practice and engage with all of the different parts of you. Here's what I've found in my own life. And I've told a thousand clients this, that the thing that I thought was the enemy and that drove me to all kinds of action and inaction that were incredibly destructive to me and people around me, that some of those very same things that I thought were the enemy are now a central part of my ability to hear the suffering of others? Like, what if there's something in some of your experiences of that are not refuse? Like, yes, they hurt, but maybe there's something

Starting point is 00:21:56 else in there. Maybe it's how you're carrying it. You know, like if I took a piece of a cactus and I cradled it in my hands, you know, just real gentle, like I could roll it around, I could feel those spines, but they wouldn't cause any damage. But if I grabbed a hold of it tight, you know, and squeezed my hands, you know, maybe some of what you're feeling, maybe some of the suffering that you're experiencing has to do with how it's being carried, not that it's being carried. I think that points to a phrase that you use a couple times in the book that I really love, which is that our values and vulnerabilities are poured from the same vessel. I think that's a beautiful phrase that really says that the things that we care about the most are also the places that we can suffer the most. But I think it's

Starting point is 00:22:46 helpful when we're suffering to see that. And a lot of what you're talking about strikes me, I often say on this show, I don't know where this phrase came from, but that people don't become great in spite of their difficulties, but because of them. And just like you, a lot of the things about me that caused me so much trouble turn out to be great gifts in a context of a different way of living. Yeah, yeah, no doubt about it. I'll often ask people, you know, when I'm teaching and to think about the people in their life who they most admire, you know, people in their own families, friends, public figures who they most admire and try to look are those people who have not had a drop of rainfall in their life. It's never true. There are always people who in fact have suffered tremendously and persevere, you know, and persevered with purpose. That's why we admire them. It's not very admirable you know if it all you know just came

Starting point is 00:23:47 easily well it's sort of like well great for you yeah i think yalom tells a story about two soldiers and i think it's world war one and the jewish guy is you know down in the trench and the bombs are flying and the german general says, this proves the superiority of the German aristocracy. Look how brave I am. And the other guy goes, no, no, it proves our superiority because if you were half as afraid as me, you would have run away long ago. It is in the face of these things that we understand what courage and sacrifice looks like. අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි I'm Jason Alexander.

Starting point is 00:25:20 And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you

Starting point is 00:25:41 and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Brian Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park.

Starting point is 00:25:56 Wayne Knight, welcome to Really, No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really, no, really. Yeah, really. No, really.

Starting point is 00:26:10 Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really, No, Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It sounds like you like to start, or at least an initial place to focus, is with values. What do we value? Yeah, I mean, I am facile with the model. And so I can start anywhere in the model, but I'm kind of known in act circles. I'm the one who wrote the original values protocols in the 99 book. I wrote them back when I was a graduate student. I am kind of known as the guy who starts with values. When I start a therapy, it's the values and vulnerabilities that interest me. So people

Starting point is 00:26:57 will very often present their vulnerability. And I want to hear, you know, what is the other side of that, you know, where they would move if they could. When I start to teach, including sometimes in therapy, I start with my own vulnerability. I just take my heart out and I lay it on the table and they know this is going to be like one of those places. So I like to start with values with a sort of light hand. I don't want to force people to it, but what I'll say to people is like, look, we're going to do hard things in here. That's no surprise to you that there'll be this hard work, but I want to make sure that we don't do any hard work that isn't in the direction of something you care about. And it will help me to be helpful to you if you can kind of give me the taste of what would just make the hardest thing worthwhile.

Starting point is 00:27:53 I want to hear it, not just like a checked box, but sort of like, if I were to tell you, I had a conversation with my daughter this morning who has made this sort of move where she's letting go of a very certain job and kind of stepping off into uncertainty for the next thing that she's going to do and she's done it in the most extraordinarily adult way and i admire her so deeply for what she's 25 years old my goodness you know see i want to hear it like that. My guess is you just hearing that from me, you can hear how important being a father is to her. I love to have a client or a student, if they can sort of ring that bell for me so that I can hear it just as a clear tone, like what they'd love. Now, sometimes people don't know.

Starting point is 00:28:47 They don't know. They've been so upside down for so long. And there were times in my own life when I would have said, I believe in nothing. I believe in nothing. I want nothing but oblivion. But then I'll ask them, would you like to know? Did you know once, you know, Tell me what that was. Yeah, so let's talk about this process of digging into values because I know that in the work that I do with coaching clients, I often simplify the work we're doing. This is a vast oversimplification, but to think about what matters to us and then be able to bring that into the world.

Starting point is 00:29:22 If we can do those two things, we've got a pretty good life, right? And so I'm interested in the ways in which you lead people into that work, because I know a lot of our listeners, they hear it and they really resonate. They go, yes, I want to start with my values, you know? And so I'd like to explore in general ways of doing that. And then I think it's also helpful to maybe talk a little bit about what you just said, which is that people that go, well, I don't know, I'm not sure. How do I explore this topic in a useful way? Somewhat paradoxically, I suppose, you know, I said mindfulness for two and wisdom, a couple of places I've said that values and vulnerabilities are poured from the same vessel. When people don't know, or they know and say, you know, when I say, you know, tell me what's really important

Starting point is 00:30:11 to you, and you get like a not very engaged answer to that, like it might be kind of, you know, like textbook true, but not, you know, a witnessed, felt, experienced connection to a value. I'll ask them where they hurt. I'll ask them about their vulnerability. Like I ask them about, tell me when it hurts. And they'll usually give me abstract things about how they hurt. And then I'll ask them if they can tell me a specific moment, you know, that they can remember, you know, carrying that weight, kind of slow motion, like a meditation, help me see the inside of that particular moment. And if they can carry me into that, then I can start to ask a question like, and if this burden could be lifted in some way, what would you move towards?

Starting point is 00:31:11 What would you allow? What second chance would you give yourself? People can understand that. It's not technical language. Sometimes I'll use figures and things like that that have things like family which ones of these you know matter to you and then not just like oh family matters or you know parenting matters or you know work matters with each one of those things that I ask them about that they value then I want that same kind of thing. You know,

Starting point is 00:31:45 like, Eric, are you a brother? Do you have siblings? And does being a brother, is that an important thing to you? See, I might ask you, can you think of a moment when you like knew yourself as the brother that you want to be? Like a time in your history with your sibs when it was like that's it that moment i was the brother i want to be see and then i want you that same process i want you to help me see it like like let's close our eyes for a minute and tell me who you're seeing there and tell me what the you know describe the context and then and then like that moment, you know, walk, slow walk up to the moment, you know, when you behave like the brother that you would be. Now, see, if you can help me connect with those things, now we have something

Starting point is 00:32:34 we can kind of put our hand on. So when we approach suffering, we can put our hand on that value and remember, okay, what are we doing here? What is this about? It's about being that brother. Remember that day? And I'll get a few of the details of it so that we can use it as a sort of a touchstone when things get hard. It's such a great conversation. I love this conversation of just working through the different areas of a person's life. Some of them, they're lost to them, but I still want to hear about them. I want to hear about them because there may be a way that those values can live in their current life, even though sometimes there are bells you can't unring. And can you go in the other direction? You went in from the positive. Tell me a moment that you remember being the brother you want to be. Tell me a moment where you didn't. Sure. And what that brings up,

Starting point is 00:33:31 or a moment that you weren't the partner you wanted to be. Yes, but not in the kind of ruminative, categorical kind of flavor. I want to see it moment by moment. I want to know the grit and grain of that experience, the phenomenology of that experience. As a way to touch the emotion. Those conversations almost always spawn one another. You know, if I talk about you being a brother, you'll also remember the times that you were. And I don't touch those as things to ruminate over. But like I myself, you were asking me when we were chatting before the

Starting point is 00:34:05 show if there are things that I've been thinking about. And one, and it's a long time theme for me, I'm not a religious guy at all, but the concept of redemption is a marvelous and underexplored in psychology. A friend of mine, Pat Freiman, I saw a film that was done, a documentary thing the other day. And he was talking to this room full of brand new, fresh-faced interns. And Pat says, I have done bad things. I've done bad things. And so have you. And this work that we do is redemptive. And I just thought I knew exactly what he was talking about because he's right. I have done bad things. I don't mean it except in the most plain way. Like if I mean to my wife, well, what next? What will I do now? If I've broken things,

Starting point is 00:35:03 how might I mend those? Or at least act like someone who recognizes that they broke those things. I think people can understand those kinds of conversations. Not a lot of fancy language around it. It's in some ways quite common sense. අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer.

Starting point is 00:36:16 Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's gonna

Starting point is 00:36:33 drop by. Mr. Brian Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really, No Really, sir. God bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really No Really.

Starting point is 00:36:49 Yeah, really. No really. Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My go-to when I am exhausted, tired, burnout, and just need to relax is a game that I play on my iPhone or my iPad called Best Fiends. It's a challenging puzzle game that has all these fun characters that you collect and you use them in your strategy. I'm hooked, and if you're anything

Starting point is 00:37:25 like me, you will be too. No Wi-Fi, no worries. You don't even need an internet connection to play, and it's easy to play. Even a non-gamer like me understood it immediately and was able to enjoy it right away. It's a unique and exciting puzzle game unlike any other out there, and when I finally solve one of the puzzles, I can't tell you how deeply satisfying it really is. There's been over 100 million downloads, so you know this is a great game. Best Fiends has thousands of levels already, with new levels, events, and characters added every month. It's hours of fun right at your fingertips. So download Best Fiends free on the Apple App Store or Google Play. That's friends without the R. Best Fiends. My siblings don't listen to this show. Well,

Starting point is 00:38:14 actually one of them does. She does. She'll probably hear this. The other one, I don't think he does. If he does, give me a call. But you know, she could probably pull up better than me. I've got a terrible memory. She could probably pull up for me some memory of me not being the brother I wanted to be. So go ahead, let me know. And let's say that that brings something up. And you said, you know, not in a ruminative way, right? So rumination is not is not useful. You know, there's a phrase that people use a lot, like, don't beat yourself up over that, right? Which, okay. And how do you balance that with, I'll say guilt in the useful sense of the word, which is when you act outside your values. You know, I think there's lots of ways guilt gets twisted. But I think a useful use of guilt, at least in my own life is I go, I feel guilty. Why?

Starting point is 00:39:02 Oh, because I value this and I didn't act that way. Okay, that leads me to want redemption of some sort. So how do we balance using this sort of thing in a useful way, but not a ruminative way? What's the distinction to you there? To own a regret is different, you know, to acknowledge and own a regret. Like right now, here's a very contemporary example. We are watching our country in incredible turmoil in the midst of the Black Lives Matter protests. I was academic for a career in academia. and I think that I was, you know, what I would consider generally on the right side of, you know, history and this kind of thing. But at the same time, I've got students, you know, a whole bunch of them who were educating me over, trying

Starting point is 00:40:00 patiently to educate me over the years. And I've seen them write things, you know, on Facebook about, you know, like, if you see me and you don't see color, you don't really see me. And it has caused me to sort of reflect on my own action and inaction. And it's caused me to move caused me to move into trying to, best I can, to understand that I have been a participant in a system, you know, because I have not demanded that it end. I've complained about it, but I have not insisted, you know, that it end. Now, here's one thing I could do, is I could sit around and feel bad about all of my inaction over the years. But, you know, how is the black community served by me sitting around feeling bad about myself or going over the times I said stupid racist things? You know, and I'm old enough that,

Starting point is 00:41:01 you know, pre-woke, you know, holy heavens, you know, I know where the bodies are buried. No one is served. No one is served by me, you know, sort of grinding over and over again all of the things that I didn't do or that I did do. There is something valuable about me acknowledging those things for me to say, you know, I could have done more. Or my heavens, how did I not see that? So the ladder of how did I not see that? And what can I do this day? What is in my power to do this day? That's a redemptive act in the way that I'm talking about. You know, it's where I reclaim what I valued all along. You know, when it hit me is I have a graduate student. She's got a daughter who's nine years old, who that child was gestated in an act seminar at my house. There are all kinds of pictures of me out on Facebook. When she was a baby, there are pictures of me lecturing with her sitting on my lap, you know, in lectures. We took her to lab meetings. I mean, she was just like everywhere all the of, you know, there's 38% of the population of Mississippi is African American.

Starting point is 00:42:45 Something like 70% of the state of Mississippi talking about it. And the interviewer asked him a question about that, you know, just incredible disparity in mortality. And he says, that's just the way it is. It was right before I went to bed. And I thought about this little girl who calls me grandpa, you know, and I thought, am I going to tell her that, you know, I'm going to go to little Aiden and say, well, that's just how it is. No, no. In that way, I didn't get it. And no amount of sitting around feeling guilty changes that for her. And that's what's important. How I feel, that is not the most important thing, not even close. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. I love that idea of redemption because redemption points to going back to our six process areas, right? The value, the guilt tells you what you value. Redemption is committed action towards that value. It's now what's the next thing that I do? And I always say,

Starting point is 00:43:44 you know, when I look at guilt in my own life is like, it's useful to the extent it moves me back towards the value that I, for lack of a better word, transgressed against. When it doesn't do that, it's not a particularly useful emotion. You want to know what is the next right thing, no matter how small. Acknowledging where you've been wrong, if you've been in the business of denying it, it's probably a good start. And I'm talking about this in terms of systemic racism and white privilege and how we play a part in it. But I don't think that this is different than psychological difficulties like addiction or like anxiety or like depression. It's not different.

Starting point is 00:44:29 We get oriented away from the things that we care about, that we value. And when we do, it makes us sick and it makes us hurt. Moving back towards what we value, that also hurts. Yeah, yeah. And we're already out of time. But I don't want to leave it there. I'm going to go a little bit long here because you just said something I think is really important. And you said, do the next right thing, the next little thing.

Starting point is 00:44:58 And that's one of my favorite phrases of all time that I got from AA, do the next right thing. But I want to talk about committed action for a second, because committed action sounds like, okay, I commit now and forever forth that I will act to stamp out systemic racism, right? I've got, I mean, you gave your story. I've got my own, right? I've got my own awakenings that come up where I go, well, no, I, okay, I know more now. I didn't do enough. I could have done more, need to do more. I think that, and I see this happen a lot with coaching clients. And this is why I want to bring it up. Because a lot of times when we think about committed action, we look at like, okay, I am, I'm not going to do that again. And so we cast ourselves and we look out into the future and we go, oh boy, I'm not going to live up to that. Holy mackerel. I'm not going to live up to that. So I'm not sure I even want to start because I don't think I can keep going. So let's talk

Starting point is 00:45:58 about what we mean by committed action in act, because we don't mean a commitment for now and forever. Commitment, people seem to think that it has something to do with the future. And there may be some definitions of the word commitment that have to do with the future. But in act, I would say commitment has nothing to do with the future at all, zero to do with the future. The best way, I think, kind of common sense way to understand what committed action is, is take the metaphor of a breathing meditation. You sit down for a breathing meditation with the intention of putting your awareness on your rise and fall of breath. And if you're like me, you can get about a breath and a half in and your mind starts wandering to the groceries and to all these other kinds of things. And then there's a moment

Starting point is 00:46:45 when you notice that, you know, you're not on your breath, you know, that you're distracted. Maybe you're browbeating yourself about what a lousy meditator you are. You're not on your breath, right? And so there's that moment, and then you can return to breath. It's in that return, in the very return, not what comes later, but in that return, that's where commitment lives in act. So if I have a value of like being a dad or being a husband or being a teacher, it's not a matter of if, but when I find myself engaged in a pattern behavior that is off that, you know, I'm talking to my daughter and I find myself being sarcastic or something. And I stop and I think, really?

Starting point is 00:47:30 You know, is that the dad I want to be? You know, does she need more sarcasm in her world? So there's that moment of recognizing I'm off that value. And then, you know, there's coming back. And it's in the return. So tell a story sometimes about the same daughter who is magnificent. When she was maybe 16, she came into the day room where I was working with a fella. We're just frustrated.

Starting point is 00:47:56 And she says, can't find my car keys. You know, I'm taking the spare keys to the Honda. And I says to her, I said, well, I won't say anything about how if you put them on the hook in the kitchen, you'd know exactly where they are. And she's just like, thanks, dad. You know, you're just dead. And she storms out of the house, you know. And it was even kind of worse than that. My friend, I got a little laugh at her expense. You know, he was kind of like, oh, you know, kids, you know. And I just thought, really? Is that it?

Starting point is 00:48:27 You know, and so I send her this text message, you know, dear Sarah, you know, I don't know what possessed me to speak to you in that way. Please give me another chance. You know, a couple of minutes later, I get a message back from her that is, I love you, and I'm going to be back. Now, it's not the message I got back. It's that I went from being off who I want to be as a dad. And in that moment, when I came back, that's where commitment lives in that. It's in the next action that brings you back into the pattern. That's where commitment lives. Each one, there's no such thing as an action that doesn't count. It's all about direction, not distance. I love that idea. And I love the meditation example, because in meditation, we have generally the good sense. We do it a few times,

Starting point is 00:49:21 we go, there's no way I'm sticking with this breath, right? And so we just go, when I forget, I'm going to come back. Some of us do actually often give up because we think we can't do it. But the people who succeed go, well, it's the next breath that matters. And in life, sometimes what we do is I sometimes see this hesitancy to start because we're like, well, I just know I won't be successful. And I just love coming back to, that's why I love the next right thing. It's not like the next six right things. It's just the next one. And I think that's so important. We've gone long here. You and I are going to spend a couple minutes in the post-show conversation talking about self as context, whether in acceptance and commitment therapy, self as context bears much resemblance to the idea of no self in Buddhism. So one of my

Starting point is 00:50:07 favorite topics. So yeah, we're going to wander around for a while and come up with no answers. But listeners, if you're interested in the post-show conversation and they're good, and other benefits like a mini episode with me, go to oneufeed.net slash join and you can become a member and support the show. Kelly, thank you so much for taking the time to come on. I've really enjoyed talking with you. It's my pleasure, Eric. Thank you. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a monthly donation to support the One You Feed podcast. When you join our membership community with this monthly pledge, you get lots of exclusive members-only benefits.

Starting point is 00:51:02 It's our way of saying thank you for your support. Now, we are so grateful for the members of our community. We wouldn't be able to do what we do without their support, and we don't take a single dollar for granted. To learn more, make a donation at any level, and become a member of the One You Feed community, go to oneyoufeed.net slash join. The One You Feed podcast would like to sincerely thank our sponsors for supporting the show. I'm Jason Alexander.

Starting point is 00:51:27 And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to reallyknowreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast

Starting point is 00:51:46 or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. The Really No Really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

The One You Feed - Kelly Wilson on Being Liberated from Anxiety

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