The One You Feed - Kevin Griffin

Episode Date: February 4, 2014

This week on The One You Feed we have Kevin Griffin.Kevin Griffin is a Buddhist author, teacher, and innovator in the field of  addiction treatment. The insight and intimacy of his teaching have made him a leader in the mindful recovery movement.He is the author of the classic, One Breath at a Time, which is one of the first books about blending mindfulness and 12 step recovery. He recently released a workbook based on those teachings . His most recent book, A Burning Desire: Dharma God and The Path of Recovery, deals with the concept of a higher power through a Buddhist lens.In This Interview Kevin and I discuss...The One You Feed parable.How what we think about becomes who we are.If you want to be loving think loving thoughts.How the Buddha applied a penetrating intellect.What  the 5 Precepts are and how they apply in our lives.Why spirituality is not anti-intellectual.How recovery is a behavioral approach and meditation is a more cognitive approach.A passable definition of spiritualityHow we all know that happiness doesn't come from thingsHow we don't live according to our beliefs.What the root of mindfulness is.Limiting beliefs.Cause and Effect.Kevin Griffin LinksKevin Griffin HomepageOne Breath at a TimeBuddhism and the Twelve Steps: A Recovery Workbook for Individuals and GroupsA Burning Desire: Dharma God and the Path of RecoveryKevin's musical album: Laughing BuddhaSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Everybody knows that happiness doesn't come from things, except the people who have the bumper sticker that says the person who dies with the most stuff wins. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking.

Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor,

what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to reallyknowreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition sign Jason bobblehead the really no really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for joining us today. Our guest on this episode is Kevin Griffin, Buddhist author, teacher and innovator in the field of addiction treatment. He teaches

around the world and is the author of two books, One Breath at a Time and A Burning Desire. He also recently released a CD of original music called Laughing Buddha. Hi, Kevin. Welcome to the show. Our podcast is based on the parable of two wolves. And in the parable of two wolves, there's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson. And he says, in life, there is a great battle going on inside of us. There are two wolves who are always fighting. One is a good wolf, which represents kindness and love and peace and justice. And the other is a bad wolf, which represents greed and hate and self pity. And name your name your negative emotion. And the grandson

thinks for a second and he says, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So this podcast is really about how people feed that good wolf in their own lives. So I'd like to start the interview off by asking you what that parable means to you in both your life and in your work. life and in your work. Yeah, it's a wonderful, wonderful parable and quite relevant to Buddhist and recovery principles. Certainly, addicts are pretty much all about feeding the bad wolf the destructive wolf and um and from the you know the buddhist teachings are so much about karma about what actions we take and that that things happen as a result of actions uh That's not, you know, as in the story, you know, maybe the grandson was thinking that there was some magic going on or some intervention from some, you know, spirits to sort of control

the outcome of that battle. And what the, what the grandfather is saying is that, no, it's really your own actions, your, your thoughts, words, and deeds that, um, cultivate, uh, whatever qualities, um, you know, are going to become dominant in you, in you, in your character, in your life. So that's exactly what the Buddha taught. And, you know, there's a famous teaching where he says something like, whatever we think and ponder upon repeatedly, that will become the inclination of our mind. repeatedly, that will become the inclination of our mind. So in the same way, whatever, whatever,

if we focus on negative, hateful, or selfish thoughts, we will become selfish and hateful people. If we focus on generous and loving thoughts, we will become generous and loving people. So yeah, the same teaching. One of the things in your, in your most recent book that you were sort of discussing was very much that sort of same idea. I think you said something about, you know, when our mind is filled with thoughts of anger, we feel terrible. When we are filled with thoughts of love, we feel wonderful. When we let our minds go off into dreams and fantasies, we feel empty, lacking. When we focus on what we are doing right now, we feel connected and complete. So I think that does align very much.

My question to you would be what are some of the ways that you go about doing this? Because the other thing that you talk about in the book that really resonated with me was the idea of that as you think these thoughts over and over, they create a pathway in the mind. And the longer that goes on, that gets pretty easy to fall into. And so for most of us who would be interested in a show like this, it's obviously because we have some challenge in keeping the good wolf fed and maybe have a history in feeding the bad wolf. So I'd be interested in how you go about sort of undoing that groove in the record or karma, as they would say. The starting point of meditation is to sort of try to ground yourself in your present moment experience, which we use the breath, which means connecting with the body, because that allows us to kind of detach a little bit from the mental process

and be in a place of something real, which is our physical experience. It's not something we're making up. which is our physical experience. It's not something we're making up. And then starting to observe the thoughts that arise and to kind of question them or look at them, see what they are saying, whether they're credible or whether they are destructive, whether there's wisdom there. And this is a, I mean, to develop this capacity, you know, it takes time. It's a practice.

We don't just sit down and close our eyes and all of a sudden start to have insights. But we have to kind of develop this quality of observing, which is, it's a capacity we all have, but it's kind of underdeveloped in most of us, because most of the time what we're doing is just following our habitual patterns and our conditioned ways of being, the ways we've always been, and the ways we've been taught to be and learned how to be. And all of that has to be kind of deconstructed. So in a way, the meditation practice is a deconstructing of reality to try to see what is rather than what we believe is. There's also practices that are specifically geared towards kind of cultivating positive mind states. So the loving kindness meditation is very much

focused on that and kind of seeing the negative tendencies and trying to really let go of them and intentionally bring the mind back to more compassionate, kind thoughts. The Buddha also taught a lot about just behavior. so the five precepts not to kill not to steal not to harm with our sexuality not to harm with speech not to use intoxicants just following the precepts can have a very transformative effect on our lives um so that's more in line with the recovery approach which is kind of i'm going to stop doing the things I'm doing because the things I do, the actions I take, actually then affect my mind. So in a certain way, the Buddhist approach and the recovery approach are coming from different directions but kind of arriving at the same place. Recovery is more of a behavioral approach.

Buddhism is more of a cognitive approach. I would agree that that idea, you know, in recovery, you hear the idea that you can't think your way into right acting, you have to act your way into right thinking. And then, you know, as you said, the Buddhist approach is a little bit different. I would be curious about – so the mindfulness piece is really about sort of just becoming aware of what's going on in a negative spot or, you know, what sort of thing do you recommend in, you know, I like to look for things that are bite-sized that I can do just kind of as the day goes on and I can do in real quick increments. Do you have any thoughts on how to apply some of those Buddhist and recovery principles in, you know, and again, in bite-sized pieces? What's somewhat under-emphasized in meditation teaching, but really is at the heart of meditation, is connecting with the body and connecting with emotions through the body. So feeling what's going on, sometimes just observing thoughts doesn't really tell us that much. And it doesn't, it can be very difficult

to detach from a thought because the beliefs are so sort of deeply programmed and we've sort of got a logic that convinces us that they're true. But if we can, so I find that just connecting with the physical experience of a mood, for instance, allows me to release that in a way that sometimes just seeing a thought doesn't. that in a way that sometimes just seeing that i can actually release mood or emotion or soften it anyway give it more space by just kind of softening the body around it I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like

why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer.

And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Brian Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really No Really. Yeah, Really No Really. Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win $500 a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition sign Jason bobblehead. It's called really know really and you can find it on the I heart radio app on

Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. There was something else you said in in your most recent book that sort of really applies to what we were just talking about. And I thought it was a very interesting, interesting piece. You said the Buddha applied a penetrating intellect to the problem, and he applied a penetrating practice. And I think that's very interesting because it's kind of both, right? I mean, I've spent a lot of time in my life reading books about meditating, which is not really by any shot the same thing as actually doing it. And yet there is also an element of, you know, retraining how we think. And so I thought that was a really succinct way to sort of sum up that it's sort of a

combined approach. You can't have just one or the other. you can't have just one or the other. I think that sometimes meditation is portrayed as this, oh, just empty your mind. And first of all, that's very difficult to do. And most people can only do it for brief periods. But it also sort of misses the point. Obviously, the, yeah, that, you know, quote you're referring to was in the context of saying, you know, the Buddha wasn't just walking around with an empty mind. He was a brilliant thinker. And so bringing, I don't think spirituality should be anti-intellectual. But as you say, there needs to be a balance.

If all we're doing is thinking about it, we're not really getting it. Insight, in the Buddhist sense, is not actually intellectual. In some ways, it's more physical. But fundamentally, it's experiential. So we experience, for instance, the truth of impermanence, or we experience the truth of suffering, or we experience the emptiness of self. And in that experience, there's a knowing, and that's what we call insight. insight. I practiced early in my practice, I sort of had this idea that at some point, some great, brilliant thought was going to come to me because I was doing insight meditation. But it's another one of those kind of problems of translation that in Western language, when we say insight, we talk about thought. But in Buddhist teachings, we're talking about an experience, an understood experience.

So yeah, that kind of blend of intellect and experience and practice is really what I think makes for a mature practice. One of the things that you hear in recovery programs is about having, you know, that the key to recovery is to have a spiritual practice or to be spiritual. And certainly for a lot of people, that's pretty straightforward. But you're certainly writing for an audience that is most likely struggling with that concept of, well, what does spirituality mean if I don't believe in an interventionist God? What does that mean? And one of the things you said was that the first aspect of spirituality is the understanding that happiness doesn't come primarily through the material world, which is a very, very practical way of sort of defining what that is. Do you want to expand upon that a little bit? Well, yeah. I mean, to start with, I talk about that. I sort of define that idea because I do think that the idea of spirituality, people make it into too mysterious and exotic an idea. And, you know, people are like, I'm spiritual or I'm not spiritual. And that, you know, it's just one of those, again, sort of language gets in the way.

Everybody knows that happiness doesn't come from things, except the people who have the bumper sticker that says the person who dies with the most stuff wins. But everybody else knows this. I mean, this is, I really don't think that's a surprise for most people. It's not that we don't know that. But the problem isn't what people believe, but rather how we actually live. Many people have good values and good beliefs that they're not able to live by. Desire is a survival mechanism. If humans didn't have desire, they wouldn't reproduce

and they wouldn't survive, right? So survival, desire is not a bad thing in and of itself. The desire for stuff isn't a bad thing. The desire for stuff comes out of the fundamental desire that I need to have food, clothing, housing. Those are just natural human cravings for comfort that allow me to survive. But evolution and survival are just powerful forces that don't actually have any restraint on them. Civilization and spirituality are the things that we bring to those instincts to restrain them so that they don't, you know, take over. I agree with you. I think if we went out and polled people, they would all say, yes, you know, happiness is an inside job, right? It's kind of a, it's sort of a cliche.

But if you look at us by and large, might throw It's kind of a, it's sort of a cliche. But if you look at us, by and large, might throw me into the boat, too. It's not the default mechanism of most of us in our culture is not the way we live. And that's one of the things with this podcast that I'm interested in is, is how do we sort of remember or become mindful, as you would say, over and over again of what our intentions are? You know, the root of the word that's translated as mindful is remembering. So sati is the word we translate as mindful, S-A-T-I. This is in the Pali language, the language of the earliest Buddhist scriptures. And the root of that word is in memory and remembering.

So I absolutely agree with you and see the challenge as being that very thing, which is to remember. The starting point is to remember to be present. From a loftier idea is to remember who we are. But to remember your intention. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the

bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really

do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Brian Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie

Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really, no, really. Yeah, really. No, really. Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead.

It's called Really, No, Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. you get your podcasts. I'd like to just touch on a couple more things and then I think we can wrap up. One of the ones, and this is again sort of getting back to creating our own reality and using thoughts that are beneficial or skillful towards us. In your book, you tell a story about you were a guitar player when you were younger. You're still a guitar player. But when you were younger, you were a guitar player.

You learned to play some chords. And then you saw somebody play lead guitar. And you somehow in your mind thought that you would be unable to learn to play guitar like that. Like it was a state. And you didn't even try because your mentality was a, it was a, it was a, it was a state and you didn't even try because your mentality was that you were not a lead guitar player. So I'd like you to maybe spend a minute and explain a little bit more about that. Yeah. Obviously it's not really about playing the guitar. It's about beliefs and limiting beliefs. And, you know, there's this whole sort of idea,

and it's sort of a New Age idea that we create our own reality. And that can turn into magical thinking, right? If I just think about it enough, it'll happen. You know, I'll just win the lottery because I think about it. And I don't really go to that school of thought but it's the idea that we create our own reality is coming out of i think some spirit as i would call the spiritual principle but it's not even that spiritual in a way which is just that if we believe something, then we act on that belief.

If I believe I'm not capable of something, then I don't try to do it. And in that way, I create my reality because I'll never learn if I don't try. And I mean, you know, it's kind of one of those things your grandmother probably tells you, you know, hey, you're never going to get it if you don't try. But, yeah, I mean, it's one of those things that I think, again, we need to and I need to investigate in myself to see what my beliefs are. You know, our beliefs don't come with signs and, you know, lights around them. We live out our beliefs unconsciously a lot of the time. So we have to really investigate ourselves to see what it is that we're believing and then question that. Is that a helpful belief or not?

And it can go the other way too. Oh, I mean, I also had this kind of delusional belief that I was going to be a rock star, but I didn't really do anything to make it happen. So it's not enough to have a belief. We need belief and action. Right, which gets back to that earlier discussion sort of about insight and practice. And you had a quote that made me laugh where you said, to think that sitting on a pillow will make you a rock star, get you lots of money, solve your drug and alcohol of a lack of a belief in really in cause and effect because cause and effect would say if i work at this i will get better at it that's a fairly you know it's sort of a fairly straightforward rule that that is true and and to sort of say well i could never do that is simply a sort of denying that that basic piece and it i think a lot of it just simply has to do, like you said earlier, about putting in the effort. Magical thinking is a whole lot easier than true practice

and discipline. People have the same problem around meditation. They're like, oh, I tried meditating, but my mind kept wandering. I can't do it. And, you know, I say, well, you know, it actually takes a lot of work to become, I'll just use the term, a good meditator. Although I don't particularly care for that term. But, you know, to become a successful meditator and to play lead guitar, yeah, it's going to take a few years of practicing hard. We're not very patient. You know, we want it now. That's why we get loaded. Because, you know, I can have the same experience that I have on marijuana by meditating, but it takes a lot more work, you know. And addicts are impatient. And we want it now, and we really don't want to put in the work. Plus, probably a lot of addicts do have sort of self-esteem issues and don't really think they can do it, whatever it is, anyway.

So might as well just get loaded and imagine it. That'll be just as good. Well, Kevin, thank you very much. I really enjoyed talking with you and, you know, learning about sort of how you approach different things. Is there any last things you'd like to leave us with? my books or my music or my teaching, my website is kevingriffin.net. And, uh, there's links to all of that stuff there. I have my schedule, you know, I teach pretty much year round. People are interested. They should check those things out. And, uh, thank you. Thank you very much. Really nice to talk with you. All right. Take care. All right, you guys. Bye. You can find out more about Kevin Griffin and this podcast in our show notes at one you feed dot net slash Kevin.