The One You Feed - Laura McKowen on the Magic of Being Sober

Episode Date: May 19, 2020

Laura McKowen is an author, award winning blogger and host of Spiritualish, a show that provides an irreverent take on self help. She has been featured on WebMD, the New York Post, Bravo, the Today Show, and more. Laura also hosts sold out retreats and courses teaching people to say Yes to a bigger life. In this episode, she and Eric discuss her newest book, “We are the Luckiest, the Surprising Magic of a Sober Lfie”You can find all of the most up to date crisis help & support resources that Eric is making available through The One You Feed by going to www.oneyoufeed.net/helpThe wisdom and practice of self-compassion is a foundational principle that Eric teaches and helps his private clients learn to apply through the 1-on-1 Spiritual Habits Program. To learn more about this program, click here.Need help with completing your goals in 2020? The One You Feed Transformation Program can help you accomplish your goals this year.But wait – there’s more! The episode is not quite over!! We continue the conversation and you can access this exclusive content right in your podcast player feed. Head over to our Patreon page and pledge to donate just $10 a month. It’s that simple and we’ll give you good stuff as a thank you!In This Interview, Laura McKowen and I Discuss the Magic of Being Sober and…Her book, We Are the Luckiest: The Surprising Magic of a Sober LifeAddiction isn’t about will power or being badHow we as humans are “magnificent monsters” in that we all have light and dark inside of usBeing in a liminal space is where transformation takes place.  Looking at challenging times and asking “What is this trying to teach me?”Embracing the mystery of not knowingHow addiction demands everythingHaving a “split mind” – the conflict of wanting to drink and knowing that you shouldn’tThe cognitive dissonance between who we think we are and what we’re doingBeing afraid of how you’ll feel when you’re not drinkingUnderstanding that sobriety gets better, then it gets worse, then it’s differentHer experience with AA and the positive and negative aspects of this recovery programThe importance of dealing with the physical body in recoveryThe fear of “aloneness” and not having a home within ourselves Dealing with the ongoing struggle and need to be fixed or saved by someoneLearning to not being afraid of herself and starting to build self esteem and dignityLaura McKowen Links:lauramckowen.comTwitterInstagramFacebookGrammarly: The digital writing tool that you can rely on to get your message across clearly, effectively, and correctly. It works where you work: in Gmail, Google Docs, Slack and many other platforms. Get 20% off Grammarly Premium when you sign up at www.grammarly.com/feedCryo-freeze CBD Roll-On by Omax Health: Quick, effective, and long-lasting relief from joint and muscle aches and pains. Enter promo code WOLF to get 20% off and free shipping of any Omax Health product at www.omaxhealth.comIf you enjoyed this conversation with Laura McKowen on the Magic of Being Sober, you might also enjoy these other episodes:Catherine GrayMishka ShubalyAnna DavidSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Have you tried to start meditating daily but can't seem to stick with it? I had that same problem too for a long time, which is why I've created a new guide called The Top 5 Reasons You Can't Seem to Stick with a Meditation Practice and How to Actually Build One That Lasts. Just head over to our website at oneufeed.net and you can get free access to this helpful resource. Again, that's a free guide called The Top 5 Reasons You Can't Seem to Stick with a Meditation Practice at OneYouFeed.net. Not drinking is not a replacement for drinking. It's just not enough because it's just taking away the anesthetic. You're left with the wreckage and the wounds. You're left with yourself.

Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like, garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter.

It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Hey y'all, I'm Dr. Joy Harden-Bradford, host of Therapy for Black Girls. This January, join me for our third annual January Jumpstart series. Starting January 1st, we'll have inspiring conversations to give you a hand in kickstarting your personal growth. If you've been holding back or playing small, this is your all-access pass to step fully into the possibilities of the new year. this is your all-access pass to step fully into the possibilities of the new year.

Listen to Therapy for Black Girls starting on January 1st on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor what's in the museum of failure and does your dog truly love you we have the answer go to really know really.com and register to win 500 a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition signed jason bobblehead the really know really podcast follow us on the i

heart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Laura McCowan, a writer of books and an award-winning blog and host of Spiritual-ish, a show that provides an irreverent take on self-help. She's been featured in WebMD, New York Post, Bravo, The Today Show, and more. Laura also hosts sold-out retreats and courses

teaching people to say yes to a bigger life. Her newest book is We Are the Luckiest, The Surprising Magic of a Sober Life. Hi, Laura, welcome to the show. Thank you. Hi. It's a pleasure to have you on. You wrote a wonderful memoir called We Are the Luckiest, The Surprising Magic of a Sober Life, which we're going to talk about in a moment. But before we do, we'll start like we always do with the parable. There's a grandmother who's talking with her granddaughter and she says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear.

And the granddaughter stops and thinks about it for a second. She looks up at her grandmother. She says, well, grandmother, which one wins? And the grandmother says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. I have two answers. One was I just recently rewatched Harry Potter with my daughter, all the Harry Potter movies. Yes. And they have a moment. I don't know if you caught this in either the books or the movies, but they have a moment where basically where Dumbledore relays this lesson to Potter about the good and the bad.

And it depends on which one you feed. So I loved that that happened. It literally came on last night when we were watching that one. And I was like, this is good for the show. Because she caught on to that, you know, that that lesson. Yeah. Or that idea. She thought about that and asked about it. So there's that. But to me in my work, you know, I had this idea, I think that a lot of people do until we are faced with something that tests that idea within ourselves, that there are good people, bad people, or that things are pretty kind of black and white, you know, when it comes to addiction, which is what my book is about, and really what

my work is about. I, like most people thought that people who get addicted, have lack willpower, thought that people who get addicted lack willpower. They lack grit. They're weak, right? On some level. Or they're bad. They're just bad inside. And that that would never happen to me, someone like me. And what I learned in going through addiction myself was obviously that that was not true and it really had nothing to do with willpower and it didn't matter how good i was uh or how bad i was or anything and um i have a chapter in my book called we are all magnificent monsters and it's basically about that it's like look we are all capable of everything every piece of light and we have it all in us,

all the light and every bit of the dark. Essentially, I don't go around wondering if people are good or bad anymore. I know that they are both. And to me, that parable is not just the fact that we have all that in us, but that if we can find that in ourselves, we can find it to be true in other people. And there's a lot of compassion that can be found there. Right? Because we become a lot less judgmental of people's badness as we would label it. That's sort of what I draw from that. And I didn't get into the book. It just didn't work. But if there's a quote that says, believing you are all good is like believing in the half moon. So it's the same thing. It's like,

we're all made of everything. And it doesn't matter what you feed. It matters what you feed. Yeah, I love that idea. And I tend to agree. Often religions get into debates. Buddhism says, you're all good. Christianity says, you're all bad. And I'm like, well, what point you start from? And I just sort of think, well, it's all in there, right? It's all in there. well, what point you start from? And I just sort of think, well, it's all in there, right? It's all in there. It's kind of all in there. And then it just depends what life experiences we have, everything that we have that happens.

Yeah. Where I want to start from here is a slightly less usual place than I normally would. But I want to talk about this because I think it's great for this time. In your book, you're saying every big transition in your life, pregnancy, becoming a mother, marriage, divorce, and especially getting sober, you've been gobsmacked by the messiness and difficulty of it all. And then you go on to say there's a term for these phases of life in biblical and psychological terms, liminal space. Limen is a Latin word that means threshold. It's the time between what was and the next, a place of transition, waiting and not knowing. And goodness gracious, are we in one right now. Yes, we are. And so it sort of stood out to me as very topical

for where we are. So let's talk about living in this liminal space. How do we do it so that what we come out with is positive? Yeah. You know, I hadn't thought of us living in a liminal space right now, but we most certainly are. Richard Rohr. Richard Rohr, yes. Who I adore. I really admire his work. And he says we should seek liminal spaces whenever we can. We should embrace them and desire them and invite ourselves into spaces whenever we can. We should embrace them and desire them and invite ourselves into them whenever we can. And I believe that's because that's where transformation really takes place. When we're going along and the ground is pretty steady,

we don't grow much. We don't change much unless we force it on ourselves. For me, it was many things, but getting sober, becoming a mother, the things I just said, like anytime when change is forced on you, like it is right now for everybody, literally in the world, how you look at that time is so important. Like, I think the primary thing is not looking at it like a mistake or something that you want to rush through, but something that you can say, what is this trying to teach me? Right. What is this trying to teach me? And to assume that there is something to be taught in that time. And that doesn't mean you slap on positivity and say it's all good because it's not. It's extraordinarily uncomfortable.

Extraordinarily uncomfortable. But I think that's, what does that quote? Great change is always preceded by chaos. If you think of it as something is completely busted, like you have a vase that fell on the floor and it's completely busted. Before we put, if we decide to put that vase back together in some kind of other shape or make a mosaic out of it

or whatever you might do, when it's just lying on there on the floor, it's in this liminal space. We don't know what it is yet. And we don't know what we're going to become in this next phase. We don't know how we're going to come out of it. So I don't know how to say let's come through it with positivity in a positive way. But I do know that how we feel about it and how we look at it in the perspective that we have about this time is not being a mistake and not rushing to get to the next part is sort of where the magic is. It's like, oh, this is reality. This is what's happening right now. And I am in the in-between. I don't have the answers and sort of embracing that mystery because who knows, right? When I

tried to force myself out of that type of state, first of all, it doesn't really work. It's not on our timeline. But whenever I've tried to impose some order or impose my will on the forces of change in a liminal space, it doesn't really work. And oftentimes I miss the blessings at that time. Yep. I think that's right on. It's embracing it to the extent we can. And I'm always sensitive to talking about deep suffering things that are happening to certain people in the world as like turning them into like a growth opportunity for me. Yeah, totally.

The reality is when we are forced into difficult circumstances, and we all are varying degrees of difficulty, we have the opportunity to grow and change. Doesn't mean we will, but we have the opportunity. And when I read your book, that just jumped out to me. Liminal space. I was like, yes. it, just even acknowledging that that's a thing. It's been philosophically true and spiritually true in the beginning of time. There's some rest in that. Like, oh, there's a beginning, a middle, and the end to everything. There's a beginning, a middle, and the end. So this is the middle part. So your book starts off pretty early on with this line, and it hooked me immediately. You said, on July 13th, 2013, the night of my brother's wedding, I left my four-year-old daughter alone in a hotel room overnight because I was blackout drunk. And the reason that that grabbed me, beside the fact that it's a completely compelling statement, is that I got sober this most recent time for me, which has been about 12 years ago, because I passed out and left my son alone.

Now, he was home with my partner at the time. So he wasn't alone alone. Yeah. She got him up. She got him to school. But the point is that, like, I just dropped the ball. And like you, I had thought, yes, I've got some problems, but I'm not going to miss the boat. That's never going to happen.

That won't happen. And it did. And that was what brought me back to recovery again. And I had one short relapse after that, but I've been sober since. I got sober young from heroin, stayed sober about eight years, drank again for about four years and have been sober since. I got sober young from heroin, stayed sober about eight years, drank again for about four years and have been sober since. But that was the event that for me too, that it was just like, okay, something's got to change. And I know for you that that really sort of woke you up and then it took you about a year to get all the way sober from there. But yeah, like you, I just really resonated with that because the horror of it for me was even though I could say, well, she was home with him, I was supposed to be there to wake him up. I was supposed to be there.

For me, it was the most horrific thing that could happen to me. Like you said, I thought, although there was plenty of evidence, plenty of evidence to the contrary, I thought, even when I was really drunk, it wouldn't supplant my instinct, my mom instinct, that I would always make my way back to her. And I didn't. you know, is struggling against something within themselves of any kind. But I wrote it especially for mothers, because there is such a special vitriol and shame for mothers. And I assume fathers too, I can only speak to mothers who drink or use and I wanted to invite them in and say like, this is where we're going. I've got you, you know, because I don't feel shame about that anymore, which is the miracle of it all. And obviously, there was a lot of work involved. But yeah, it goes against everything natural. Right. But you say elsewhere in the book, if there's one thing you can count on, it's that addiction will always demand more,

more attention, more loyalty, more time, more everything. It will demand everything. And it's a phrase that we hear in recovery, which is like, I didn't do that yet. I know for me in my addiction, it was all a matter of time. It was no horrific thing that I wouldn't have been willing to do at some point to get high or drunk. I just didn't have to. You just weren't there yet. Yeah. Yeah. You hadn't had the time or the circumstances or whatever. Right. Yeah. More. It took everything. Another thing that really struck me, and you gave this description, and it's so good because I often talk about, I think the worst place in the world to be is stuck between really, really wanting to drink and really knowing that you shouldn't. To me, that is a special kind of hell. And I stay sober a lot of times because I

simply never want to be there. But you describe it as Wile E. Coyote, that moment when the earthquake hits and the ground splits in two, and the poor coyote is grasping all wide-eyed and panicked at both sides of the earth. The divide becomes bigger, bigger, bigger, and his body starts stretching like a rubber band until he's unable to keep any grip. I love it. That is so, you know, you call it this purgatory, this unbearable wishing for one side or the other, this unsustainable stretching. It's just a nightmare. It is the nightmare. Yeah.

The nightmare. That year plus between when that incident happened with my daughter and when I finally got sober was honestly the worst year of my life. Yeah. Because I didn't want to get sober. You know, I really didn't. I mean, let's just say that. I just didn't. I thought it was the end of everything. And yet I knew I couldn't keep going as I was. And I tried desperately to call it like the third door. There has to be another option. And that's what I spent purgatory looking for was that option. And I, and you know, it's funny that the crazy thing is I knew it didn't exist, but I just couldn't accept that it was over yet. I just couldn't

accept that all that was over. I didn't know how to do that life. So yeah, I mean, in, in psychological terms, I think it was young, maybe Freud, who knows that said a split mind is hell, maybe Freud, who knows, that said a split mind is hell. Like a split mind is hell. Yes. I think a really good analogy is like, if we hear conflict, like say other people having a conflict, say you have kids and they fight,

it jacks your nervous system up. It's like freaks you out, you know, or even if you're strangers fighting, it immediately causes such internal friction in you and your heart rate goes up, you know, or even if you're strangers fighting, it immediately causes such internal friction in you. And your heart rate goes up, you know, feels terrible. But that purgatory is like the one foot in one foot out is like that friction inside of you. And we withstand so much of that when we are caught in addiction, we withstand it every day, even not just related to the drinking, but the lying, the presentation of two different versions of ourselves, saying one thing and doing the other thing. The cognitive dissonance of who we think we are and yet what we're doing just doesn't match up. And that causes that's extraordinarily hellish, painful place.

Certainly is. I agree with you. I don't know that I could get sober again. I don't know that I would come out on the side of sobriety. So I just can't. I'm out because of that, no matter how shitty sobriety you might get. I'm the same way. I literally think back that feeling. I think back to that feeling and that's what I go. I can't. And I know that if I go drink, I will, I will be forced to that juncture again. It's not like it's going to go well. And so I'll be forced back to that juncture. life should have become easier. Everybody thinks it will be easier. And I think it's really important to be able to say that not right away sometimes, you know, that sometimes it feels worse

for a little bit. You know, I always say that being sober is amazing. Getting sober sucks, you know? And, and so, but it's important to realize because I think that's what confuses a lot of people. It confused me. Well, I quit. Why isn't everything better? I feel terrible. Why? This doesn't seem worth it. Yeah.

You know? Yeah. And I think if we don't have somebody saying to us, well, hold on a second. What you're experiencing right now is not what you'll be experiencing later. You got to get through this. It took me a while for whatever reason coming in and out of recovery a couple of times before I got that message clearly enough, like, oh, I see. I need to hang on here. You need to hang on. Well, there's so much to that, right? There's so much to why that's true because the drinking was never the thing,

right? The drinking actually served a purpose. I say like not drinking is not a replacement for drinking. It's just not enough. Yes. Because it's just taking away the anesthetic. And then you're left with yourself. Yes. You're left with the wound.

You're left with the wreckage and the wounds. And like by the time I got sober, and this kept me drinking for so long as I was afraid of what I was going to have to look at. You know, my wrecked marriage, I felt like a shitty person just all the time. And I didn't know how to feel things. You know, the reasons why we end up drinking start so early. It's just like this accumulation of limiting beliefs and bad conditioning and bad patterns. And then of course, when we get sober, we're left with ourselves. One of the first guys I talked to, one of the only two sober people I knew when I was trying to get sober, he had like 20 years of sobriety at that point. You know, what you want to know so desperately is like, does it get better? And that's what I would ask sober people, like, do you like your life now? Because I just didn't believe they could. And I said, like,

is it better? Are you better now? You know, 20 years sober, and he just like, had the best laugh. He's like, Oh, honey, it's like it gets better. Because you're not creating all this wreckage anymore. Like that does feel better. It gets better. And then it gets worse. And then it just gets different. That's a pretty good description. Yeah. Although I will unequivocally still stand on the, yes, it's better. Oh, yeah. The different is not a bad different. I mean, unequivocally, it's better.

Almost not even a comparison. It's like an apple and an orange. Like, well, you know. Sort of the crux of my entire book was like everything I thought I wanted and everything I thought that made life worth living and everything that I thought I was so wrong. But it took time. Like I hated sobriety for a good year, hated it because I wanted to drink all the time. And that's really painful. That obsession didn't leave me for a long time. I was pissed off. I was sad. I was in so much grief. And yet there were bursts of such extraordinary joy and hope and love and all of that in there. Yeah. Yeah.

So, yeah, no, it's unequivocally better, but it's not easy. No. It doesn't mean life is easy, right? Now, I had two very different getting sobers. I mean, when I got sober at 24, it was from heroin addiction, and it was a low bottom. I was homeless. I was looking at going to jail for a long time. I weighed 100 pounds. I had hepatitis C. I mean, I was in bad shape. And I went in, and I got into treatment, and I stayed in treatment, and then I went to

a halfway house. I wouldn't say that it felt easy, because it was not easy. But- Yeah. Life was was less complicated probably, right? Life was way less complicated. And it was so bad that it was like, oh my God. It was relief. And I was supported and I was carried. And the second time I had just gotten the best job I'd ever had. I had a family. I lived in the suburbs and I drove a nice car. You had a lot more to lose. And nothing bad had happened. I mean, okay, yes, I didn't go home to take care of my son that one night.

But compared to my earlier one, which was such a bad thing, I was like, what? This isn't so bad. I had enough wisdom to know that inside I was just the same. Yeah. You know? Right. But it was harder. And like you, the desire to drink didn't leave. It just, it dogged me for like six months. I was like, is this, you know, first time it felt like it went away kind of quickly. The second time I was like, oh my God, it just, you know,

and it was a little bit more of an intellectual exercise because I hadn't fully had my ass kicked. I'd had it pretty well kicked, but it was still enough. I found my way through it. You feel like that's because alcohol is just everywhere. It's so there, it's so socially acceptable. It's so benign to most people. Whereas heroin, obviously, everyone's like, of course, no one does heroin. That's what I mean. Inside, I was exactly the same person. I was out of control and desperate. It's just that alcohol, I could walk down to the store and for $10 buy a pint of whiskey.

For heroin, I had to have all this money and I kept having to spend more. And where am I going to get $300 a day? And I've got to start stealing it. and I've got to engage with a different group of people that's dangerous. But fundamentally, the mechanism of addiction in me was the same both times. And so I luckily had had enough time in sobriety, I'd have been sober about eight years that I could see that. I could think back and I'd learned enough in that time that I was able to see, okay, this is the same thing. It's just that the consequences aren't here yet. And they may not be here in the same way for a long time.

But the question I kept asking myself was like, do I really need to keep riding this elevator down? Like, do I need to get in a car accident with my son before this is enough? And I just kept going, no, I don't have to do that. No, I don't have to do that. Yeah. That's a different game. It is a little bit of a different game, but I was fortunate to have support and help.

I could go on and on about how fascinated I am by alcohol and that we basically think it's a benign or celebrated drug. But, you know, that's a whole different conversation but i think that you don't have to explain also not using heroin no you know people wonder when you don't drink it's like a conversation they wonder yeah there's you know because it's a thing yeah it's not a thing to not do heroin. Hey, y'all. I'm Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, host of Therapy for Black Girls. And I'm thrilled to invite you to our January Jumpstart series for the third year running. All January, I'll be joined by inspiring

guests who will help you kickstart your personal growth with actionable ideas and real conversations. We're talking about topics like building community and creating an inner and outer glow. I always tell people that when you buy a handbag, it doesn't cover a childhood scar. You know, when you buy a jacket, it doesn't reaffirm what you love about the hair you were told not to love. So when I think about beauty, it's so emotional because it starts to go back into the archives of who we were, how we want to see ourselves and who we know ourselves to be and who we can be. So a little bit of past, present and future, all in one idea, soothing something from the past. And it doesn't have to be always an insecurity. It can be something that you love.

All to help you start 2025 feeling empowered and ready. Listen to Therapy for Black Girls starting on January 1st on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really Know Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor.

We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does tom cruise really do his own stunts his stuntman reveals the answer and you never know who's going to drop by mr brian cranson is with us how are you hello my friend wayne knight about jurassic park wayne

knight welcome to really no really sir bless you all hello newman and you never know when howie mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really? No, really. Yeah, really. No, really. Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really? No, Really? And you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Similar to you, when I got sober the second time, I had a job that was a professional job. I was in sales for a software company and my job was taking people out, entertaining them, going to conferences, you know? And so I'm just, I'm just waltzing into

these drinking situations all the time. My wife at the time continued to drink. It was a strange getting sober, but it but it worked, which thank God. Thank God. The elevator continuing to go down. I guess my primary feeling, because I obviously didn't stop drinking after the most horrific thing happened, but I think that what scared me the most is that I just really didn't know what was going to happen when I drank anymore. I just, anything was on the table. I just didn't know. And so you said, you know, Emma, do I have to get in a car accident with my son? And it's like, that might be the best thing that was going to happen to you. I agree. It was the same situation for me. Like when I start, I don't really know.

Most times what happens is I do this, then I do this, then I do this. But then there's those other times I was a complete blackout drinker, you know, so like all the time. I often think back and I'm like, well, there's probably horror stories back there that I just fortunately don't recall, you know, that I just don't, I just don't recall. Sometimes blackouts are a blessing, I suppose. Let's talk about another complicated topic, which is AA. It seems like maybe we've had a similar relationship to AA. Like I think AA saved my life twice and it saved my life. I think that's all I can say about it. And yet I'm not really that big a part of it anymore. And

there's lots of things with it that I have some challenge with. But I love to be able to have a nuanced dialogue about AA because most of the dialogue that we hear out there is not nuanced. As you say so well, as in politics and religion, the beliefs on both extremes of AA are dangerous and limiting. And I think it's really important. So I thought maybe we could just spend a couple minutes about what are some of the good things about AA that we love and what are some of the things that maybe we don't love as much. And then I'd love to hear some of your ideas on alternatives to AA. Sure. You know, I'm always really hesitant to say too much about getting sober without AA because that's

what I did. You're right. Right. And it would be disingenuous to do that. I can say, well, I've heard good things about this and this seems interesting, but I don't have firsthand experience with it. Yeah. So I'd love to just kind of talk a little bit about it. Sure. That was a chapter that I wrote many times, like at least 10 times. And I still wasn't sure if I wanted to include it because I just didn't. It's a delicate topic. And at the end of the day, my feeling is the same. The people in AA saved my life. Period. So my arguments are kind of, it's not even an argument.

It's a luxury that I can have this conversation. But, you know, I would say even since I wrote the book, I have different opinions now. So, which is beautiful. It's like we get to change our mind and we get to grow. And that's the reality of people and nature is right. Yeah. We just don't like to acknowledge that. My arguments against AA were largely about the fellowship of AA. I didn't really grasp and I don't think people largely do from the outside or even inside the program that there's the

fellowship, which are the people. And there are all kinds of dysfunctional things that happen in the fellowship because it's people. But then there's the 12 steps, which is the program of recovery. That is the actual program. I think the program is beautiful, incredible. I wouldn't change a thing. I wouldn't touch a thing. I think it's ancient spiritual wisdom. It's not even unique to the 12 steps. You can find that sort of process in other places. But the fellowship is where I struggled because I really had a hard time. I would often leave meetings feeling more depressed and not more hopeful because I felt like in some cases there was just this overwhelming sense of fear. These things, you know, like my addict is in the parking

lot doing pushups and meetings are my medicine. And if I stay away from meetings, I'm going to, you know, drink and die. And not just that, that's fine. But it was more telling other people they can't be sober and that they're not really sober if they aren't doing AA. That's what I took a lot of issue with. No one has any right to tell anyone how to do their sobriety or their life or what constitutes being a healthy, sober person. So I didn't like that. There's that, just this overall sense of that people who are 20, 25, 30 years sober were coming into meetings. I heard them say the same story every time they shared. And it was like, I don't know how this just feels like being stuck. It didn't feel expansive to me at certain points. I also felt like there's this over-identification with being an alcoholic and

that being the center of all your issues in life and why you do everything you do. And I just, I rejected that so hard. It's like, no, you're a human being. That's why you're doing these things. I agree. That was one of the things that drove me crazy was this idea, this constant delineation between us, alcoholics, and normal people. Normies. Oh, me too. No, I don't think so. Yes, there are some things that are specific to my alcoholism, but all humans struggle. All humans go through all this kind of stuff and we're not so different and we're not so unique. I sort of related with that. And similar to what I think you're also saying, the thing I sort of got tired of hearing was, you know, I'm still sick.

Yes. You know, sober 10, 15 years, I'm still sick. I'm still a liar, a cheat. And I was like, well, I'm not the same person I was when I came in the door. I'm not saying that my alcoholism is fixed. But the big book says we recover. Right. It does not say we are forever sick. It says we recover.

But that's missed. There's a lot of misinformation that gets spread through the fellowship because people go to meetings and then they take what someone says in meetings and they pass that on and they pass that on and they pass it on and that becomes common knowledge and it's really not what that was intended you know and it's not actually even in alignment with the program so those were my arguments and the literature there are parts of literature that i was like come come on, can we please update this? Like the for the wives chapter. And if your husband is, you know, just be gentle with him and let him do the things he needs to do

are ridiculous at this day and age. Okay. So those are my arguments. Some of my arguments in the beginning were like arguments against getting sober. They really were. I just didn't want to get sober. And so AA is the problem, right? But some of them were legitimate and they were real. And I wasn't discerning enough to really just take what worked for me and leave the rest. I just wasn't there yet. So that stuff got to me. Over time, however, there is such incredible community in AA. The fellowship is beautiful. I have met some of the most loving, wise, peaceful, serene people in the fellowship of AA. And if you have an alcohol problem, it is a place where you can bring that. I think the tenets, you know, service, being of service are huge. That's a massive part of my life. And I think what

sustains my sobriety and keeps me healthy. I never had an issue with the God thing. That was always very easy for me, but I know a lot of people do. And so that didn't bother me. I love, you know, the trust God, clean house, help others. I think that's a pretty decent way to live. You know, it's a good foundation for a life. And again, I think the 12 steps are beautiful. What I've noticed is that over time, and especially since this pandemic has started, almost immediately when it started, I kind of was like, oh, I need to go back to my roots. I need to be in meetings with other people that are struggling. I need, I want to be of service specifically to those people. And I want to sit and hear other

people too. And, you know, so it's interesting that that I found that to be my foundation, the foundation of my recovery. And yeah, so those are my general thoughts. I mean, And yeah, so those are my general thoughts. I mean, I think it's okay for it anywhere you can find free places to go that you will get support and care and an opportunity and people who will understand you. And you've got a great line. Nothing is such a balm for a broken soul as this to know you are not alone. And you'll get that in AA or 12 step program. You'll walk in and you'll hear people telling stories. You might, Oh my God, like, yeah. Okay. That's the only one that was this way. So it's ubiquitous and it's everywhere. And I think that's amazing. I agree with you. Some of the literature I think is

outdated. It's just, AA's got this, we're not going to change anything from what was 1939. It's got a little of that, like it was written right out of God's mouth. I'm like, well, and I do have a little challenge with the God thing. Not so much that there's that element of it. And I thank God for the line. Thank God, it's something I don't believe in, for the line, as we understood him. Because I think that's probably saved millions of lives. But I still do think like the Lord's Prayer, that is a severely Christian prayer. I think that's probably saved millions of lives. But I still do think, like the Lord's Prayer, that is a severely Christian prayer. I think there are places that we could not lose the heart of AA, but we could de-emphasize the Christian God piece of it, mainly because it would open it up, I think, to more people.

Yeah, it's so interesting. But I think that you can come to AA, you know, like I just translated. When they say this, what does, like I just translated when they say this, what does that mean to me? When they say this, what does that mean to me? It just was like an additional step of processing that I sort of had to go through. And if you work with the right people in AA and you talk to the right people, which I have to acknowledge that experience varies wherever you are, right? Widely. So I got sober in Boston AA meetings, which was like extraordinary

because there are so many, there's LGBT, you know, meetings. There's literally every sort of faction you could find your own meeting. That's not the case in a lot of places outside of big cities. So yeah, agreed. That's a really good point.

Women's meetings exist and men's meetings exist. That's about as far as it goes. Yeah. I love what you said there. You sort of summarized, you said it's a, it's for people who, who didn't catch it. It's an AA line that says, trust God, clean house, help others. Right. And clean house means clean up your inside messes, you know, take care of your, your internal things. You feel bad about the things that haunt you, the, you know, clean your life up. Resentments that you have. And I think AA has resentments, right? Too. Like I'm almost six years sober. I will be this year. It's like resentments are this sort of thing that makes me the most sick, you know? And that language I think is brilliant,, is brilliant because it is about cleaning house. Hey, y'all.

I'm Dr. Joy Harnon Bradford, host of Therapy for Black Girls. And I'm thrilled to invite you to our January Jumpstart series for the third year running. All January, I'll be joined by inspiring guests who will help you kickstart your personal growth with actionable ideas and real conversations. We're talking about topics like building community and creating an inner and outer glow. I always tell people that when you buy a handbag, it doesn't cover a childhood scar. You know, when you buy a jacket, it doesn't reaffirm what you love about the hair you were told not to love.

So when I think about beauty, it's so emotional because it starts to go back into the archives of who we were, how we want to see ourselves, and who we know ourselves to be and who we can be. It's a little bit of past, present, and future, all in one idea, soothing something from the past. And it doesn't have to be always an insecurity. It can be something that you love.

All to help you start 2025 feeling empowered and ready. Listen to Therapy for Black Girls starting on January 1st on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Block your cell signal. The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you. And the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by.

Mr. Brian Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really, No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening?

Really No Really. Yeah, really. No really. Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I like the distinction you made in AA. There's a fellowship and there's a program of recovery. But I think what's really useful and what I often do is, particularly as I've drifted away from AA

a second time. First time I drifted away from AA and I ended up drinking. So moving away a second time, I'm like, well, hold on here. Do you not learn your lessons? But what's been helpful for me is to think about what is it that I got from AA that I think helped me to stay sober? And how else do I get that in my life? And I think community, people to talk to that I can share with and that understand me. you know, recovery community, not friends and family, you know, right. And then some method for dealing with my internal things, some sort of spiritual life, some sort of connection to something bigger than me. Again, words can, can, can be different and then opportunities to help others service, right? You

know, AA is really great in that way because it's sort of, it's just custom made. Yeah. You just keep going to meetings and new people keep coming in and you've got your opportunities. So outside of that, I've had to figure out like, okay, how do I patch those things together in my life?

And when I sometimes talk with people who are thinking through their addiction, they're like, AA is not for me. I'm like, okay, well, here are some things I think you might want to make sure, like, how are you going to get these things? Because it's the combination of those factors that is what I think makes AA, when it works, work. Absolutely. I totally agree with all of that. And I think there are ways to deal with underlying causes and conditions and really mental health, right? I say I threw the book at it. I was like,

I'm going to do AA and I'm going to read all the books and I'm going to do therapy and I'm a yoga teacher. And because I'm just sort of nerdy and curious for one, but also I didn't find it all in AA. You know, for example, AA doesn't address the body, the physical body. And to me, that's a massive, massive part of, and I'm not, that's not a fault of AA. It's just not part of the program. Yeah. That's a fascinating point that I've often thought of a lot of the times when I think, well, AA doesn't do that. And I

think a little bit more about it. And I'm like, uh, I don't want it. It probably shouldn't try that. Like, what do you want a fitness program? No. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. But even in the literature, it sort of doesn't address the body. And again, that's not a criticism of AA, but that has been a massive part of my healing. What I've learned about trauma, what I've learned as a yoga teacher is that so much of our issues are in our body and have to be released somatically. And that required something else. It's also therapy. I needed therapy. I needed more. And that is encouraged in AA. There's a line, I think it's page 131 or 133 that says, we encourage you to seek the help of professionals in all these other areas.

So I bring that up, not to cite the big book, but because some of the misinformation you hear is people saying, ignore that. NAA saying, ignore that. Don't go to that. This is all you need. And that's what spreads and perpetuates this sort of dysfunctional side. Yeah, I agree. And what you were just saying, I often say, I use a similar phrase when I talk about dealing with my depression, which is I just throw the kitchen sink at it. It's continue, it's just everything. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Like if there's a way that's been suggested to work on it, I'm yeah, I've probably given it a shot, you know, like, yeah, because it requires that, you know, it's for me, it requires that,

or I can slip into really bad states. Yeah. It's to use a buzzword. It's holistic, right? It's what it takes for me. And that's what recovery took also. Right. I agree. So I think that covers it all. Those are sort of the summary of how I feel, but at the heart of that is so much gratitude and so much reverence for my life because I don't think I would be here if not for that foundation in A. So you and I are nearly out of time, but there's a couple small things that I'd like to talk about, although they're not small.

But I'm just going to read a line from the book and ask you just to say a little bit more about it. You say, and you're talking about being lonely or alone. You say, we think it's the aloneness we fear, but I believe what we actually fear is not having a home within ourselves. I've been thinking so much during this time that this is like, we're all being forced into sobriety of sorts because we're just left with ourselves.

And I don't know about you, but I think it's causing a pretty large mental health crisis because we have created a world where we barely, we don't have to be with ourselves at all. If we don't want to, there are a million ways that we can escape. So just, you know, commentary on this time. But my first two thoughts when I went to get sober were what if I'm boring and who's going to love me? I was so afraid of that aloneness, even though I had been out, not really been in a lot of relationships. It was just the irony of that is that I was so much more alone. I didn't have a home in myself. I couldn't be trusted in my own house. You know, I couldn't be trusted in my mind and in my body. It was a scary place to be. It was a painful place to be. And when I went to get sober, I was just recently

separated, like a year separated from my husband at the time. The loneliness of that was like crushing at first. It's like, I need someone in my life. I just need someone to come in and fix this. And that's a narrative I have uncovered through a lot of work in sobriety is that I had this belief that someone else was going to come and save me and that that was going to fix me. And man, did I do everything to try and make people do that for me. And that has been the real work of my sobriety. That has been the real crux of it. That was underneath the drinking was this Medicaid and this inability to be with myself, this fear of being by myself and this crushing fantasy, crushing because it's a fantasy and not real that someone was going to save me. And when that didn't

happen and that didn't work and no one could ever do. Oh, my God, what a painful place that was. And it's ongoing forever. I'm not in this perfect place. I still desire to be in a partnership. I still want that. But it's, it's not a need. It's not like a fix that I need, like that anxious feeling of I need to be fixed, like you did when you were drinking or using. It's like, I need this because I can't be okay without it. It's more like I truly do have a home in myself. And the reason for that is because it's like, this is a safe place to be now. Laura is a safe place to be. I trust myself. When I was very early in sobriety, there was this like, I don't even know if you could call it a poem. It's just more a line that I wrote. And it says, but there is this, I am awake and I am alive and I'm not afraid of myself anymore. And that was

my baseline. It's like, at least I'm not afraid of myself anymore. And then you can, you can build on that, right? And then you start to build self esteem through esteemable acts. And you start to build dignity. And by esteemable acts, I mean, I didn't know how to be a functional person. I didn't know how to pay bills. I didn't know how to do laundry. I didn't know how to keep my word. My boundaries are all screwed up. So I would say yes, when I met no, and as I know, know when I meant yes, just try to get you to like me and to people please and bend myself in different ways. And all of those things, all of that, that work adds up to being a place that internally I am proud to be in that I am content to be in any way. There's still loneliness, but it's not that loneliness. I think that totally makes sense. And I think it's a natural and normal human desire to be

in a partnership. I think it's a desire that's part of being human, right? Yeah, I had to learn that too. I always thought it was like this very embarrassing weak thing. Yeah, no. And I think sometimes we're given this idea that like, well, if we're psychologically independent, then we just would never need that sort of thing. And it's not a need in the way you say, but it's a pretty strong human desire. But there's a very big difference between this is something I would like to have in my life and I want to have, and my life is not worth living without it, or my life is broken without it, or I am broken without it. Those are very different. Yeah. Because what it becomes is you essentially end up using people

to fill something. You're not really in relationship, right? You're using people to fulfill something in you. And that's not a relationship. I mean, we've all experienced that. Yeah, it doesn't work. It doesn't work. Right. My history of relationships was I'd go into a relationship thinking that's what I needed. I needed this person to fix me. And then when we'd finally be in the relationship and I wasn't fixed, I just go, you're the problem. You're the problem. You're not like, why aren't you doing what I need you to do?

I still believe like a relationship will fix me. You just are clearly the wrong one. And so I'm going to move just are clearly the wrong one. I'm going to move on and find the right one. Yeah. Anyway, you and I are going to continue in the post-show conversation by talking about this line from you. And you say, in my experience, the primary difference between those who recover and those who don't. So we're going to talk about what that is in the post-show conversation. Listeners, if you'd like access to that and many episodes, ad free episodes and all kinds of other good stuff,

you can become a member by going to one you feed.net slash join. So thank you so much for coming on. It's been such a pleasure to talk to you and I really enjoyed this. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a monthly donation to support the One You Feed podcast. When you join our membership community with this monthly pledge, you get lots of exclusive members-only benefits. It's our way of saying thank you for your support. Now, we are so grateful for

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