The One You Feed - Mark Nepo on Connecting to What Matters

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hi friends, this is just a quick reminder that we've got lots of free resources available for you during this difficult time. Things like free group coaching, free coaching for healthcare workers, special bonus episodes, and other things. And you can get details on all of that by going to oneufeed.net slash help. And I'd also encourage you, if you're not, to get on our email list and follow us on social media, because that's where we're announcing other things that we're doing, and it's the way that you can find out about it. Be safe and take care of yourself. Thanks. We are challenged to honor what we're going through,

Starting point is 00:00:36 and at the same time realize that what we're going through does not define the world or life. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like, garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction,

Starting point is 00:01:30 how they feed their good wolf. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to reallyknowreally.com

Starting point is 00:02:04 and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. The Really No Really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Decisions Decisions,

Starting point is 00:02:18 the podcast where boundaries are pushed and conversations get candid. Join your favorite hosts, me, Weezy WTF, and me, Mandy B, as we dive deep into the world of non-traditional relationships and explore the often taboo topics surrounding dating, sex, and love. That's right. Every Monday and Wednesday, we both invite you to unlearn the outdated narratives dictated by traditional patriarchal

Starting point is 00:02:40 norms. With a blend of humor, vulnerability, and authenticity, we share our personal journeys navigating our 30s, tackling the complexities of modern relationships, and engage in thought-provoking discussions that challenge societal expectations. From groundbreaking interviews with diverse guests to relatable stories that will resonate with your experiences, Decisions Decisions is going to be your go-to source for the open dialogue about what it truly means to love and connect in today's world. Get ready to reshape your understanding of relationships and embrace the freedom of authentic connections. Tune in and join in the conversation. Listen to Decisions Decisions on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Mark Nepo, a poet, philosopher, and cancer survivor who has taught in the fields of poetry, health, and spirituality for 40 years. Mark is a New York Times number one selling author, has published numerous books and audio

Starting point is 00:03:37 projects. He has also appeared with Oprah Winfrey on her Super Soul Sunday program on OWN TV. Today, Mark and Eric discuss his book, The Book of Soul, 52 Paths to Living What Matters. Hi, Mark. Welcome to the show. Great to be with you. Thanks so much for having me. Yeah, we're really excited to have you on for a second time. We're going to discuss your book, The Book of Soul, 52 Paths to Living What Matters, in a moment. But let's start like we always do with the parable. There is a grandfather who's talking with his granddaughter and he says, in life,

Starting point is 00:04:10 there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the granddaughter stops and thinks about it for a second. She looks up at her grandfather. She says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. Yeah, well, thank you.

Starting point is 00:04:38 You know, I think it speaks to the proper use of will. We think in the modern world that will is meant to bend and manipulate things that are in the way, when actually that's feeding the darker wolf. And, you know, throughout all the traditions speak, have different language for it. But basically, when we cooperate, listen, and work with, which leads us into areas of acceptance and surrender and co-creation. Then we're feeding, and I would even, let's open up synonyms for the good and bad wolf. I would think that the quote good wolf is the whole wolf, W-H-O-L-E, the integral, you know, the word integrity really means to make whole. So the whole wolf and the dark wolf is the partial wolf, the limited wolf, the isolated and alienated force in us.

Starting point is 00:05:36 So, I mean, it's interesting in Stephen Mitchell's translation of the Tao. You know, he talks back in the, I'm one of those people who reads all the notes, you know, because it's like a whole deeper conversation. You know, it's just like going down a side street. It's amazing what you find. And one of the things he talks about is that the word sin, when you go to translate that in the East, it actually doesn't translate as evil or bad. It translates as opaque. bad, it translates as opaque. So when we don't see, when we don't open up, when we're not listening, when we're not present, things get blocked. And that leads us to mispaths or paths that lead us where we start misfeeding the wrong forces.

Starting point is 00:06:25 Yeah. It doesn't counter the definition. It opens up synonyms and different ways of holding what those two things we feed represent. Yeah. We had Stephen on the show recently because his translations of things are stunning, and so is some of his actual writing. translations of things are stunning, and so is some of his actual writing. And I've often heard of sin, you know, translated as missing the mark, but I had not caught that opaque piece, you know, about not seeing. And so much of this book, so much of what resonated with me was talking about this idea that so much of our suffering comes because we only see part of reality. And you talk about this over and over in the book,

Starting point is 00:07:07 and you referenced it just now when you talked about wholeness. You say, I'll just read a line from it because I think this speaks to it. You say, we're always part of something larger than our condition. And the circumstance we're in, real and consuming as it can be, is not the condition of the whole. We all struggle between the narrow condition of our understanding and the vastness continuing around us. As soon as we succumb to our narrow condition, whatever it might be, as soon as we stop receiving life, we begin to paint everything with the color of our trouble. And A, that's beautiful, and I think it speaks to what you were just saying, that this problem is one of seeing the whole, and we very often, we don't. We see just this little

Starting point is 00:07:51 teensy slice of it, and we suffer when we do. Well, and yeah, thank you about that passage, and you're reading that. And let's say under that for our viewers, too, that there is legitimate, the friction of being alive does cause us difficulty pain suffering but we double that suffering by not connecting and staying connected to the larger vastness there's two things here i would share about one is a metaphor of the the ocean of the surface and the depth so we all know like the waves that are constantly being churned and, you know, through the weather of circumstance, the top six inches or so, eight inches of the ocean, the sea are constantly being disturbed. That's the psychology of our circumstance, our condition,

Starting point is 00:08:42 whatever that might be, whether it's calm, whether it's churned, whether it's choppy, you know, whatever it might be. And that's natural. It's like, we can't say, oh, gee, I don't want that. If I'm peaceful enough, it'll never be. No, that's where the inner world meets the outer world is like where the sea meets the air. But, you know, you take any one wave, and we see them as waves from the top, but they're all one connected body of water. You can't go down and say, the wave stops here, and the depth begins here. So, as we go down further away from that surface, we go into the depth of being. And there, we don't avoid the turbulence of the surface, but it's right size because it has a context. So we all know when we go into that depth, then the surface, it's not as disturbing. If we stay on those top six or eight inches, we're like a

Starting point is 00:09:46 pinball in a pinball machine. We live in both and we have to live in both. But very much the passage you read, which has been a great learning for me, you know, over the years, pain, fear, worry, all these things pull us to the surface. And that's why we need to have some kind of inner practice and friends to help us balance that by wait wait wait no i also need to touch in below this trouble not to deny it or ignore it but to right size it that's right yeah i love that metaphor i think it's the right sizing of it's That's right. Yeah, I love that metaphor. I think it's the right-sizing of it. It's not denying that it's there. It's not denying that it's real.

Starting point is 00:10:30 It's just putting it into a bigger, vaster perspective. Yeah, which is always there. And all the traditions, all the meditative traditions, I mean, everything is trying to offer us all kinds of ways to touch into that vastness that holds us. So meditation is a way for you in your own life. Like, what are some other ways that you, when you find yourself churned up on the surface, right?

Starting point is 00:11:01 What are ways that you connect with the deeper vastness? So starting from the inside out, you know, just with me, there are infinite ways. And this is where for people who are listening, what I share are examples, not instructions. And if this, what we're talking about speaks to anyone, then how would you populate your toolbox of practices? populate your toolbox of practices? What is that equivalent for you? So for me, the first thing I try to do is difficult things push us back. So I try to lean back in. I try very hard to practice leaning in, holding nothing back, being present to whatever is before me, whatever is before me, and giving it my whole heart's attention. And usually, while it's a struggle, that will bring me back in touch with that underlying vastness. If that doesn't work, if this fear or this pain or this worry's got a grip on me, well, then I'll read something that has always touched me.

Starting point is 00:12:09 It's funny how, you know, back when we were just buying albums, you know, and I'm sure everybody does this, but I would hear one chord in one song on an album that would just take me there. And I'd buy the whole album for that one chord. And actually, you know, now, later in life, I mean, I'll just play that because we have the technology to do it. Forget the rest of it. I'll just play the one chord over and over.

Starting point is 00:12:35 Because that happens for me at that moment to be the thread I can pull that will bring me back. to be the thread I can pull that will bring me back. So then if that, you know, another thing is calling up my dearest friend or talking to my wife or, you know, calling up a friend and saying, tell me a story. I don't care what it is, just anything that's not me. Yeah, what you said, I think is really true. And meditation, I think, is a really profound tool. But for me, I found if I'm pretty churned up, meditation is not always the best place to go. Sometimes, but very often not. And I love that idea. I often think of it as like, I need some other voice in my head besides my own. Whether it's, like you said, reading, talking to a friend, listening to a piece of music, I've got to get some other voice in my head besides my own

Starting point is 00:13:25 sometimes because I just, I feel trapped in it. Well, and meditation, let's open it up. It takes many forms. It's not just sitting on a cushion. You know, for me, I swim, you know, which is my exercise, but I learned pretty quickly. I've been swimming for about 15 years, but I learned pretty quickly that while I did it, I, you know, I went to it went to it physically for aerobics and all that. But it turned out, oh, it's really a moving meditation. It really does more to center me. And sure, it does stuff for me physically. But I realized that's why I really do it.

Starting point is 00:14:00 And so whatever it might be, it know, it could be, you know, raking leaves or, yeah, whatever, picking up branches at this time of year that have fallen in the winter. Whatever it is, when we can be present, then our being and doing align. You know, I like to talk about that is, so one thing that I try to do when I'm agitated is return to moving at the pace of what is real. What do I mean by that? Well, for me, what I mean is nobody can stay there. But when my mind and heart and body are moving at the same pace, that seems to be like a mystical tumblers and a mystical lock that opened me to those peak moments when everything starts to glow or that, that conduit back to that vastness. And, and then, yeah, then, you know, I,

Starting point is 00:14:53 I trip and now adrenaline runs in my heart races and I'm not there anymore. Right. But, but that, that effort to try to move at the pace of what is real, to slow down enough so that those, my mind, heart, and body align, and I have a out running, and I'm setting a variety of these Buddhist Zen chants that I have to my footsteps, and it's boom, boom, you know, got done, done. And it just, after five, 10, 15, 20 minutes of that, boy, do I sink into a connected deep place that's very different than like what a sitting meditation would be or whatever because it's like you said my mind is moving at exactly the pace that my body is moving and there there's a real connection there and i found that to be uh and i'm outside so it's kind of beautiful and it's it's that's a wonderful practice it's it's been nice another thing in this regard is which we

Starting point is 00:16:01 often don't do i mean i do it as a poet all the time but it's it's just helpful as a being is to read out loud it's very different than reading we can't we're blessed that we can read silently but there's a different thing that happens to us when we read out loud even when we're alone even to ourselves and uh because you know it's like sheet music. I mean, I can't read sheet music, but somebody who maybe is a very talented musician can read sheet music and hear some sense of the music, but most of us can't, and even if they could, that's different than playing the music, and it's the same thing.

Starting point is 00:16:40 Reading to yourself is one thing for comprehension, but for embodiment, that's just sheet music. We need to play it. I committed more seriously over the last year to a deeper Zen practice. I've shared this on the show before. I'm interviewing somebody different every week, and it's easy for me just to kind of be all over the map. And about a year ago, I went, you know, I just, at least for this little part, you know, this one aspect, I want to go deep in one area. And so there's been that part of the Zen practice too, which is the chanting, which is something I haven't done a whole lot of in the

Starting point is 00:17:15 past, but, or even reciting some of these things out loud after my meditation, there is a different feel to it to actually say it and hear it out loud than to just read it, even in my head, repeat it in my head. And the beautiful thing about what we're talking about is that these things align us, and they're not about chanting beautifully. And no danger of that, in my case. It's not about reading well. You know, we meditate not to be great breathers, but to be clear vessels. And the same thing, we sing, we write, we express, we dance,

Starting point is 00:17:51 not to be great performers, but to be clear vessels. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a floor? We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned

Starting point is 00:18:46 during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you, and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by.

Starting point is 00:19:01 Mr. Bryan Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening?

Starting point is 00:19:16 Really No Really. Yeah, really. No really. Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The forces shaping markets and the economy are often hiding behind a blur of numbers. So that's why we created The Big Take from Bloomberg Podcasts, to give you the context you need to make sense of it all.

Starting point is 00:19:45 Every day in just 15 minutes, we dive into one global business story that matters. You'll hear from Bloomberg journalists like Matt Levine. A lot of this meme stock stuff is, I think, embarrassing to the SEC. Amanda Mull, who writes our Business Week Buying Power column. Very few companies who go viral are, like like totally prepared for what that means. And Zoe Tillman, senior legal reporter. Courts are not supposed to decide elections.

Starting point is 00:20:11 Courts are not really supposed to play a big role in choosing our elected leaders. It's for the voters to decide. Follow the Big Take podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. You say early in the book that the purpose of the human journey is to live openly and honestly until we become a source of uncovered light. And I thought that was a beautiful line. It made me resonate with what you just said, you know, until we become a source of uncovered light or, as you said, a vessel. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. or as you said a vessel yeah thank you thank you recently i heard you say somewhere and i think this is valid right now for a variety of different reasons and not the least of which is the fact that

Starting point is 00:20:51 we have a potentially terrifying uh virus uh on the planet right but you said we've become addicted to the noise of things falling apart and i think that's a really wise statement and i thought we could explore that for a minute. Well, yeah, and it pertains right now. I very much appreciate and love the Buddhist notion of seeing things as they are, which is maybe the at once the simplest and hardest practice we can do individually and collectively. And here's a good application of it or case study of it is that things by nature, when they fall apart, they make a lot of noise. And when things come together, they're quieter. Now things, by the very nature of existence, kind of like spiritual physics, things are always coming

Starting point is 00:21:37 together and falling apart at the same time. When we're falling apart, we see the world as dark and terrible and chaotic and as tragic. And when we're coming together, oh, isn't it wonderful? Everything's a miracle. Well, of course, it's all things at the same time. We are challenged to honor what we're going through and at the same time realize that what we're going through does not define the world or life. And so I do believe in the modern world, we are addicted to the noise of things falling apart, which makes it hard to see things as they are. There's no question that this coronavirus is a thing that we all need to look at carefully, participate, be serious about. It's unknown. We have no idea what's going to

Starting point is 00:22:27 happen, but it's hard to address what's actually happening once we inflate and sustain a distortion of all that, which leads to excessive fear. And, you know, we've already heard, for example, And, you know, we've already heard, for example, multiple medical sources and experts say that if you're sick, it helps to wear a mask. But if you're not, the mask doesn't do anything to protect you. It keeps you from contaminating others. But it's our distortion out of fear where, you know, everyone, so many people are wearing masks and also it's creating a shortage where people in the health professions were working in hospitals, doctors, nurses and caregivers and going down into the depth, not the waves, to say, okay, this is real. We're not going to deny it or minimize it, but what is actually happening so we know what right action is? There's a great metaphor from a master teacher of Akaido. I don't know anything. I can't practice any of those martial arts, but of course, I read about

Starting point is 00:23:44 everything and there are wonderful teachings in all of this. And so this one comes a master, a Kaido teacher will often teach beginning students how to right size things and see what's actually there. knife now adrenaline will make everything in front of you a cloud of fear and the instruction in addition to physical movement or whatever is to outweigh the cloud of fear so you can see that of all the places in front of you only one spot is dangerous and that's the tip of the knife everything else is safe once you can see that, you have real choices. Now, in real time, I have no idea how you practice that. But as a metaphor for how we meet the outer world of circumstance, this is a powerful metaphor. How can we outweigh the noise of things falling apart and the cloud of fear?

Starting point is 00:24:43 I face this all the time from my work. I'm a long-term cancer survivor over 32 years. You know, I almost died in my thirties. I'm just recently turned 69 and thankfully I'm well, but part of the PTSD of being a cancer survivor is every time something happens, you know, I get a cold or I get a gland that because, you know, run down that shows up. All of a sudden, that cloud of fear like that knife appearing, it's uh-oh, uh-oh, it's coming back, it's everywhere. And, you know, that's been practice ground for me to say I can't react and go running into the labyrinth of tests and everything. I need to outweigh the cloud of fear so I can see what's actually there so that I have real choices and I'm not just flailing blindly. And all of this with passion. Of course, this is scary. And this raises another thing. I mean, again, with the coronavirus, this is scary. And this raises another thing. I

Starting point is 00:25:45 mean, again, with the coronavirus, this is serious, it's real, but we're not responding well because also in the modern world, we have catastrophized our relationship to the unknown. When I was a kid and there were only three TV channels and, you know, Weather Report was called the Weather Report. Now it's called Storm Watch. Storm Center 10. Right. So, well, you know, storm is only one form of the unknown. It's only one form of weather.

Starting point is 00:26:14 And so, yes, the unknown can produce catastrophe and pain and difficulty, but it also produces wonder and beauty. But for me, not one person who has been important in my life, who I've loved, a significant other, a friend, anyone, that's not something I've planned. It's always been a surprise. It's always been a function of the unknown. So the things that make us resilient are out there in the unknown about to appear as well. And if we simply cut off the unknown, we cut ourselves off from the resources and only hunker down with the catastrophes. Yeah, there's a lot you said there. That line, addicted to the noise of things falling apart, what I like about it is, as someone who's suffered from heroin addiction and different things, addiction shrinks everything down. That's it.

Starting point is 00:27:08 That's all there is. And to your point, you know, that's a great way to think of it, because it's not that things aren't falling apart, because some things are falling apart, as is the nature of things, and they're real. And I also love that idea of, and this gets back to us talking before, about seeing only the problem or only the very small slice of reality versus all of it. And that's the point you're making about seeing, you know, the knife point is dangerous, but there's stuff all around it. And, you know, it just, it points to this idea that the smaller our view gets, the more we suffer regardless. And the more broad that we can make our view, the more whole and vast we can

Starting point is 00:27:45 make it, the better. And I'm always sort of struck by this sense like, well, yeah, there's lots of things that are going wrong in the world, but every moment of every day is populated with beauty everywhere and people treating each other well and kind and love. And it's everywhere also, even probably in far greater numbers. It's just not nearly as stimulating. Nothing that everybody doesn't sort of know, and yet it's hard sometimes to look away. There's a real paradox there, and we're all susceptible. It's so humbling. This goes back to the good wolf and the bad wolf, or the whole and the partial. If I'm not present and open-hearted, then the smallest thing governs me and it leads me into addiction of all kinds of perception, of feeling, of thought.

Starting point is 00:28:33 Okay. But when I'm present in everything, every smallest moment in detail is a threshold to the holy universe. It's a huge difference and it's a humbling thing because pain can reduce us. Sometimes we break and we fall into being completely overrun by the smallest thing. And sometimes we break open and fall into the lens of the miraculous. And anything can be an addiction. You know, I have my dearest oldest friend who I've written about, Robert, he's a recovering alcoholic who's been in recovery for almost 40 years. And we helped save each other's lives because he had bottom while I was in the hospital. And years later, you know, he had neuropathy from advanced alcoholism and I had neuropathy from being damaged by chemo. And we were about, I don't know,

Starting point is 00:29:32 eight years on the other side of him hitting bottom and me still being here. And we were out in the summer, we were having a sandwich, sitting on a bench, quiet, with our numb hands. And all of a sudden, out of nowhere, he looked at me and he said, well, I'm an alcoholic, but you're a makeaholic. And I immediately, while I had never thought of it, I knew exactly what he meant. Yeah, I knew exactly what he meant. You know, I mean, this creative force in me, which is a window to the holy, has been the source of all my life force. And if I don't stay grounded in my heart, if I don't stay balanced, I can become addicted. I mean, it will use me up. I can work for days.

Starting point is 00:30:24 It's not a question of sticking to it. It's a question of stopping. And so, you know, when I'm there, when I was younger, I would just ride it. And it would be like, it would be holy, but it would be like a high. And then at some point, that force, that light force would say, come on, keep going. You don't need to eat. Keep going. We're almost there. Come on. And again, obviously, this is not just about me. This is that fine, fine line between what's holy and what we feed, the light, whole light, whole good wolf or the dark, partial black hole wolf. Right. Yeah. It really is back to the, having the big picture, not the small picture. I'm Jason Alexander.

Starting point is 00:31:38 And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like... Why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you.

Starting point is 00:31:59 And the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Brian Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park.

Starting point is 00:32:13 Wayne Knight, welcome to Really, No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really, No Really. Yeah, really. No, really.

Starting point is 00:32:26 Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really? No, Really? And you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The forces shaping markets and the economy are often hiding behind a blur of numbers. So that's why we created The Big Take from Bloomberg Podcasts, to give you the context you need to make sense of it all. Every day in just 15 minutes, we dive into one global business story that matters. You'll hear from Bloomberg journalists like Matt Levine.

Starting point is 00:33:00 A lot of this meme stock stuff is, I think, embarrassing to the SEC. Amanda Mull, who writes our Business Week buying power column. Very few companies who go viral are like totally prepared for what that means. And Zoe Tillman, senior legal reporter. Courts are not supposed to decide elections. Courts are not really supposed to play a big role in choosing our elected leaders. It's for the voters to decide. Follow the Big Take podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. So let's change directions just a little bit. There's something that I wanted to explore in your book because I thought this was, boy, this really spoke to me. And you said,

Starting point is 00:33:43 we all struggle with the tension between our obsession with making things new and the wisdom that comes from reentering life as many times as necessary in order for it to reveal its secrets. How many times do we run from those we love because we insist on finding something new when we're often being asked to live more deeply where we are? The same can be said for our work in the world. How often do we abandon what has meaning because we think we're bored when we're actually being asked to penetrate the habit of work in order to unearth the very center of our calling?

Starting point is 00:34:15 And I thought that was so great because I think it's a question that I actively wrestle with from time to time that I think when I was younger, I just thought it needed to be something else and I just would lose interest in change directions over and over. And as I've gotten older, I think I've gotten wiser to realize no life is asking me to go deeper here. But boy, it's still that that siren call of something different. And sometimes that's what's needed. And I think it's discerning those two. But I was really struck by that. I haven't heard anybody articulate something that's been a fairly fundamental challenge in my life, or at least a fundamental

Starting point is 00:34:49 thing to work with. I haven't heard anybody articulate it that clearly. Well, it's a very profound thing. It's been a profound teaching for me. And, you know, I think as a poet, as an artist, you know, I mean, we were all trained, We all are trained. And you look at Ezra Pound at the beginning of the 19th century, made the famous statement, make it new. And he, in my view, he set an entire generation back because it feeds a deeper spiritual illusion. And then we'll get back to this part of the conversation. And that is the menacing assumption that life is happening other than where we are. and we spend so much time chasing, whether it's in time or place or relationship or work, if I could only get over there, or if I could only have a relationship like those people, if I could only be like this, if I could only get like, then I'd be happy, then I'd be whole.

Starting point is 00:36:01 And one of the profound blessings in my life and paradoxes is that at this time in my life, I love, you know, teaching and being with folks. And I travel a lot. And I literally, I travel all over the world. And whenever I get wherever I go, I go there to affirm that there's nowhere to go. Yeah. And I'm happy to do it. And, of course, we're on this, again, in the surface world of circum, of course, we're all traveling from different places. But it's like we were talking

Starting point is 00:36:31 about with those moments that every time we're present and open our heart, whether it's through love or suffering, it's always the same eternal moment that opens. There is no there, there's only here. So, you know, one of the things, and this applies not just to art, but to life and the things we're talking about, is, you know, again, I was taught when I was a young poet in graduate school, you know, be on the look for good material, good things to write about. And of course, almost dying and still being here, not only was it a miracle that I was here, but the real miracle was that it scoured my perception so that the ordinary revealed the lens of the miraculous. Everything is miraculous. Everything is good material. It's only whether I'm present enough to enter it. And so if I'm not present

Starting point is 00:37:28 enough, then I get bored and then I run over here. And this happens, you know, with serial relationships, you know. And certainly, let's be clear, I'm not saying we should stay in relationships at all costs and we outgrow relationships. We certainly shouldn't stay in abusive relationships. But a lot of times we get bored or we don't want to face things about ourselves. And then so it's always easier to fall in love than to stay in love. The intoxication of the quote new. And often, as I, you know, in that quote, we are being asked to enter and not go from here to there, but to go from out to in, to drop down, to open up so that the miracle appears wherever we are. And I also learned this through, not through any wisdom on my part, but because when I was ill, I couldn't, much as I wanted to leave what I was facing, I couldn't.

Starting point is 00:38:32 I mean, I physically couldn't move a lot of the time and I had to be where I was until through exhaustion, it opened up. I mean, maybe you and through your journey through addiction have experienced something similar where this, you know, the miracle of what is opens up underneath us. And of course I was always like, I had no idea. Oh my God, it's right here. It's right here. Yeah. I've always studied Zen, but it's what drew me to make a deeper commitment there was because that's the thing of Zen that has always been so clear to me. It's always pointing to like, right now, this, this, this, this, over and over. And I realized that's, for me, that's where the learning was. I'm doing koan study and I'm working on a koan right now. And it's the best koan to illustrate this. And

Starting point is 00:39:22 it's a monk asks the master what is the meaning of bodhidharma coming from the west and bodhidharma is the founder of zen why did the why did the founder of zen come what was the meaning of the whole thing and they and the and the master answers the oak tree in the garden and you you suddenly have just taken this whole massive thing and you said oh the whole point of it was just that you could see and appreciate that beautiful tree there. Like it's right here. It's nowhere else. And, and, uh, what was it? You said the menacing illusion that life is menacing assumption that life is other than where we are. Yeah. Yeah. And that, that has an addictive quality, you know. Totally. Yeah, totally.

Starting point is 00:40:10 And another, there's a chapter, if you might remember, in the new book about the fire of aliveness. You know, we all have to survive and thrive. Often, out of fear, we make a god out of survival. But if we survive without thriving, what's the point? But, you know, so what I talk about in that chapter is that there is the fire of circumstance, which are the difficulties we encounter. And that fire needs to be doused. You know, that's the fire of worry, of pain. That's literal fire. You know, I'm working, I'm cooking at the stove and something catches fire. I got to put it out, you know, but the fire of aliveness that comes from within us. This is where the heart connects the portion of soul we carry with the rest of universal spirit. That fire needs to be fed.

Starting point is 00:41:00 That fire needs to be kept alive. And so we have this twin calling in order to survive. Yes, we, you know, to bring it back to the coronavirus right now, yes, we should wash our hands, okay? Can't be foolish and say, you know, well, forget about that. It's not really. No. but at the same time, we can't stop loving and living. We need to feed that fire of aliveness and kinship and connection. And that becomes an art, a personal art. What does that mean? Well, you, me, everyone listening has to personalize what does that look like for you to douse the fire of circumstance and to feed the fire of aliveness. Yeah, I loved that section of the book. And there's something you wrote here,

Starting point is 00:41:52 which is I'm going to read because it's kind of practical towards this. And you say, you mentioned when I find myself drifting into the future or dwelling in the past, right, which is what we're talking about moving out of being here. I close my eyes and start over, trying to bring all of me to whatever is there when I open them again. I vow to look at one thing at a time like a child. I vow to listen more closely like a person gone blind. I vow to rediscover the world in whatever gritty, precious thing is before me and to quiet my mind so I might feel the vastness of life flowing between us. And that's a very practical way to approach this. It's a very practical way of

Starting point is 00:42:31 doing that. How do I be the fire of aliveness? Another kind of practice is, and this happened, when we get caught up by any kind of detail or pull to other than where we are or worry or fear, you know, we tend to go over it. Like if I go, I say to myself, well, if I go over it one more time, I'll figure it out or it'll land better or I'll feel, and it never works. The only thing to do is drop it. And the hardest thing is to drop it just when you don't want to drop it And you know, I have a little poem of mine that I that's a real and these poems You know the things that I write I retrieve and they become my teachers, you know And and this one has been a great teacher for me. It's a very it's a short poem. It goes like this called practicing

Starting point is 00:43:21 as a man in his last breath Drops all he is carrying, each breath is a little death that can set us free. And so the harder, you know, when fear, worry, and pain push us away, we got to lean back in. You know, when I'm trying to figure things out too hard and I'm stuck in my mind, I just have to drop it. Just drop it. And this is another thing I think that's been a profound lesson for me over the years. And that is as soon as we count or compare, we're no longer present. Oh boy. Yep. And so I've learned that and we listen to that. We talk about it. Someone may be listening and say, well, good. I won't counter compare. Oh,

Starting point is 00:44:11 we will. That's not the point. The point is to recognize it when we do so we can drop it. Because, you know, for instance, good example, emotional example, we're friends. I respect you. Give example emotional example. We're friends. I respect you and one day you say something pretty harsh to me and All man because I love you and respect you it just goes right to me, right? And so later on I'm gone, you know, I'm working it I'm going well How could he say that and I thought I was now that you know, it's cuts my worth my self-worth And I'm going over it to try to make it better or land better with it. The matter whether I am counting up or down or comparing up or down, the more I do it, which is an addictive quality in itself, it only unravels my worth further. The only thing that will restore my worth is to stop counting and comparing and be present so I can restore my

Starting point is 00:45:16 direct connection to my life and to the vastness that holds us. That's right. Yeah. I've often talked about that. It's been on my mind a lot in coaching work that I've done. It's been part of the spiritual habits program that we've put together and we're offering is this idea of we can compare ourselves up or we can compare ourselves down. You can always do that. But like you said, when we do that, we sever connection. And this ties back into what we were just saying about seeing things as they are. One of the things we do as human beings, which we just have to accept and have self-compassion. And I love your notion of spiritual habits. I love that.

Starting point is 00:45:53 You know, we need that. You know, is that we tend to inflate or deflate our sense of ourselves and our circumstances. our sense of ourselves and our circumstances. And we need to right-size them and see things as they are. Again, so we can have clear choices so that we can restore our presence. We can restore our direct presence. Yeah. I've told this story recently because it just struck me so much. We were watching with my partner's mother has Alzheimer's. And, I've told this story recently because it just struck me so much. We were watching with my partner's mother has Alzheimer's. And so I'm always looking for shows that she'll want to watch that relax her. And so we've been watching The Crown on Netflix, which is about the royal family, which is incredibly well done. Not really my normal thing I'd watch, but there's an

Starting point is 00:46:40 episode about Princess Margaret. And Princess Margaret is the queen's sister, and she wants attention. She craves attention. And she always feels like she doesn't have enough. But what's amazing is that Princess Margaret gets more attention than 99.9% of us in the world get. She just doesn't get more than one person. But when she looks at that one person and compares herself to her, she suffers mightily.

Starting point is 00:47:05 And it's such a stunning example to me that our comparison is this point of reference that doesn't make any sense and how much we can suffer from it. It's just such a blatant example of it that I saw recently. Well, that's a great example. That's a great example. And what it raises, too, is that when we insist on comparing not only do we increase our suffering but this is what leads and this is feeding the darker wolf because then if we don't face what is ours to face then this leads to jealousy and what's worse than jealousy is and know, jealousy is she wants the attention that her sister gets and doesn't see her own worth.

Starting point is 00:47:47 Envy is she doesn't want her sister to have that. Right. And that's destructive. So, you know, one of the first things we can do to reduce violence in the world is to stop counting and comparing when we find ourselves doing it and to have the courage to face what is ours to face. Well, I think that is a beautiful place for us to wrap this up. This has been a wonderful conversation. You and I are going to talk a few more minutes in the post-show conversation about, you say, the spiritual qualities of immersion and devotion, how they've guided and saved your life more than once.

Starting point is 00:48:26 So we're going to talk about those in the post-show conversation. Listeners, if you'd like to get access to that as well as an episode I do each week called A Teaching, A Song, and A Poem, you can go to oneufeed.net slash join and become part of the community. Mark, thank you so much for coming on. It's always such a pleasure to talk with you, and I get so much out of your work. Oh, well, thank you so much for coming on it's always such a pleasure to talk with you and i get so much out of your work oh well thank you it's a joy to be in this continuing conversation together thank you okay bye If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a monthly donation to support the One You Feed podcast. When you join our membership community with this monthly pledge, you get lots of exclusive members-only benefits. It's our way of saying thank you for your support.

Starting point is 00:49:25 exclusive members-only benefits, it's our way of saying thank you for your support. Now, we are so grateful for the members of our community. We wouldn't be able to do what we do without their support, and we don't take a single dollar for granted. To learn more, make a donation at any level, and become a member of the One You Feed community, go to oneyoufeed.net slash join. The One You Feed podcast would like to sincerely thank our sponsors for supporting the show. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really No Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead.

Starting point is 00:50:11 The Really Know Really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Decisions Decisions, the podcast where boundaries are pushed and conversations get candid. Join your favorite hosts, me, Weezy WTF. And me, Mandy B. As we dive deep into the world of non-traditional relationships and explore the often taboo topics surrounding dating, sex, and love. That's right.

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The One You Feed - Mark Nepo on Connecting to What Matters

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