The One You Feed - Matthew Quick 3rd Time: Mental Health, Alcohol, Anxiety and Getting Healthy

Episode Date: July 18, 2017

Please Support The Show With a Donation   This week we talk to Matthew Quick Matthew Quick is the New York Times bestselling author of The Silver Linings Playbook, which was made into an Oscar-winning film; The Good Luck of Right Now; Love May Fail; The Reason You Are Alive; and four young adult novels: Sorta Like a Rock Star; Boy21; Forgive Me Leonard Peacock; and Every Exquisite Thing. His work has been translated into more than thirty languages, received a PEN/Hemingway Award Honorable Mention, was an LA Times Book Prize finalist, a New York Times Book Review Editors’ Choice, a #1 bestseller in Brazil, a Deutscher Jugendliteratur Preis 2016 (German Youth Literature Prize) nominee, and selected by Nancy Pearl as one of Summer’s Best Books for NPR. The Hollywood Reporter has named him one of Hollywood’s 25 Most Powerful Authors. All of his books have been optioned for film. In This Interview, Matthew Quick and I Discuss... The Wolf Parable His new book, The Reason You're Alive ICATS - what it means and why limiting it in your life is helpful to anxiety How public speaking causes him to have anxiety His calming practices to manage his anxiety Why dismissing whole groups of people is a mistake The importance and benefit of meeting people who are different than you Comfort the Disturbed and Disturb the Comforted Generational tendencies in worldviews The damage that's done when we shame others about their thoughts The relationship between anger and fear How silencing people is un-American and frustrating The transparency of the main character in his new book Humor is experiencing the unexpected Laughing and Crying give relief to tension The major life changes he has made over the past 3 years and their impact Believing he couldn't function without alcohol and Rxs The long-term benefit of passing on some forms of short term relief The power of the past to continue to live on Every experience leaves an impact on you and affects the rest of your life The power of focusing on process and not result       Please Support The Show with a DonationSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You can't just have a blanket statement for everyone because everyone's different. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like, garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit.

But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction. How they feed their good wolf. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor,

what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to reallyknowreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. The Really No Really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Matthew Quick. This is Matthew's third time on The One You Feed. He's a New York Times bestselling author of several novels, including The Silver Linings Playbook, which was made into an Oscar-winning film. His work has been translated into more than 30 languages.

His new book is The Reason You're Alive. If you value the content we put out each week, then we need your help. As the show has grown, so have our expenses and time commitment. Go to oneufeed.net slash support and make a monthly donation. Our goal is to get to 5% of our listeners supporting the show. Please be part of the 5% that make a contribution and allow us to keep putting out these interviews and ideas. We really need your help to make the show sustainable and long-lasting. Again, that's oneufeed.net slash support. Thank you in advance for your help.

And here's the interview with Matthew Quick. Hi, Matthew. Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. You are the first three-time guest. I am very proud of that. It's in the honor of some sort, I suppose. I feel like I should get a jacket or something.

Well, I was looking before I left. I was like, I wish I had a t-shirt in your size, but I didn't have one. Oh, that's okay. So, you know the podcast. I mean, I love your work. And then, secondly, it's just a thrill for me that you actually listen to the show a lot. So, it's kind of cool to have somebody that I really want to have on who also knows the show. So we've done this twice. And this time is different for listeners because we are in person. We are in Cleveland. Making eye contact. Making eye contact. Matthew's doing a book tour and I live about two hours away. So I figured I'd come up and we do it in person. So this is a live one. So let's go ahead and start

with the parable. Take three on it. There's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson. He says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and thinks about it for a second and looks up at his grandfather. He says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to ask you your take on that parable. I've answered twice already. And one of the things I've noticed, and again, I listen every week, a lot of, I shouldn't say a lot, some guests come on and maybe try to pick apart the parable, or they'll

say they're not comfortable with the parable. And I'm always at home arguing back. And I always take their point. I understand what they mean. But I think the parable is great because it's very simple. And for someone who struggles with anxiety, if we think of anxiety as the dark wolf or the bad wolf. It's very simple. And lately, I've been using this little thing called CATS. I think I picked this up on another podcast, but it's caffeine, alcohol, tobacco, and sweets. And for me, I know that I've got to eliminate or lower that stuff in order to deal with my anxiety. But my wife is very quick to add an I in front of that and call it iCats because she says internet, you know, and the thoughts that you're taking in is really a big one. And especially on book tour,

you know, there's a lot of things that can trigger anxiety on book tour, public speaking. People will say to me like, you're a great public speaker, but they don't know that for three hours before I get up on stage, I have to do breathing exercises and I've got to be alone and calm myself. And I share that because, you know, it normalizes it for other people. But also with the information on Booktour, you're constantly getting reviews and people writing about you. And I'm definitely a perfectionist. And the book is very, every one of my books is very personal. But when people read the book, even if they like it, if they don't like it for

the reasons I intended, that could be troubling. And of course, if you want to find someone to tell you that you suck and you're a terrible writer, there are plenty of people on the internet lining up to do that for you. So limiting the flow of information and what you access, even just stuff like news too. My wife and I try to not be looking at the news all the time. But you're in an airport and you're seeing newspapers, headlines, TV screens everywhere when I'm traveling that I'm not used to seeing. And 95% of it is just horrible, horrible stuff, makes you think that something bad is going to happen to you every second of the day.

And so I try to reframe my thoughts and think, well, there's all these people in this hive of an airport, and yet you're safe. And somebody just smiled at you, and somebody held the door for you. And so trying to control my thoughts as well, you know, feeding that good wolf, you know, where are you going to put your attention? And I understand when people come on the show and they want to, you know, intellectualize the parable, but I think you're really missing the point if you do that. Right. I mean, that's why it is a parable. Although I heard the other day that a parable has humans in it and a fable has animals. So it might be a fable, but I'm too late to change. That's okay.

But yeah, I mean, I agree on one level. It's a very simple thing. Where do we choose to put our attention, our energy, our actions? And I think too, especially when you publish a novel, people do want to intellectualize things. And I get it. I've been the MFA student. I've been the I get it. You know, I've been, you know, the MFA student, you know, I've been the, the, the academia person. Like I've been the lit snob and the older I get, the less important that stuff becomes. You know, I used to think when I got on stage, like, oh, if I confuse like a fable with an allegory or whatever, like it would be the end of the world. But I make mistakes in public all the time. You know, I use the wrong word and you know what? That's okay. You know, the world goes on. And I think the meaning is more important than specifics. I think when you let go of being right, you actually take in more information that's good for you.

You definitely do. Not having to be right helps in so many different ways. I mean, having to be right for me is a limit on what I actually even listen to or learn. Because if I'm thinking I have to be right or I am right about this thing, I'm just not really listening anymore. And I've more and more thought about that and looked at that and tried to just step back and go, well, maybe I don't know. Open my mind to the idea that I don't know. Yeah, and there are times in the past where I've said, I don't want to tweet something because maybe I'll make a spelling mistake. of times in the past where I've said, I don't want to tweet something because maybe I'll make a spelling mistake, or I don't want to get up on stage and speak because maybe I'll say the wrong thing, or I'll say um or like, or all the things you're not supposed to. Chris will get rid of

those for you in this case. I appreciate that. Anytime I speak or anytime I put a book out, the people that I really connect with, they're not interested in that. There are definitely people in the audience that will, every time I say that, and they'll point to that. But there are other people that say, what is this guy about? What is his core value? What is his truth? And that's what they're interested in. You want to connect with those people. So when I'm on the road, I'm constantly checking in. There'll be moments when I'll replay something I said in an interview at two o'clock in the morning. Anxiety will wake me up and I'll sit up at three in the morning and say, what did I say in that interview? And the one you feed and I'll get very nervous. And I have to remind myself that it's not the specific thing

I said. It's a collection of all the things you say over time. And that's what people are going to remember. I think that's a great way to transition into the new book. It's called The Reason You Are Alive. And it has a character, the main character is somebody who would be challenging for a lot of the people who listen to this show, right? He's a very strong right wing, you know, some of us would call, you know, nut job, right? I found it fascinating, though, to start the book with him and then watch over time as you realize on some level what a wonderful person he is. And that's one of the things that, you know, after this election and all that, and I've stayed out of politics because of when I've wandered in, it's, you know, it's not really my space. The thing that's troubled me the most about it, though, is that it seems like we picked the worst example of the other side and use that as a representative for all of them. And I just don't think that's

the case. I mean, there's been a lot of work about conservative versus liberal values, and they're, they both have really strong values. They're just different. Yeah. And so I loved the book, because you start with this guy, again, I think a lot of people listening to the show will immediately be like, wait a minute, because I think our audience skews left. But over time, you really get to know this guy. And you see that despite certain things, he's a wonderful person. Yeah. And thank you for saying that, because that was one of the things that I wanted to explore. I should say that I finished writing this book before the last presidential election heated up. It was before we imagined that Trump would be president. That wasn't my

intent. I wasn't even thinking about Trump when I wrote the book. But I grew up in a very conservative Christian home. And if you had asked me when I was 16 to describe myself, I would have said Republican, a fundamentalist Christian, probably. And when I went to college, I remember my grandfather saying to me, you need to get your degree, but I don't want you to believe anything that the people at school tell you because they're all liars. All your professors are going to lie to you. And that was a really confusing message for me to get at 17. But of course, when I went to liberal arts school and I was an English major, secondary ed, everyone I met was extremely liberal. And immediately my needle started to move left.

And now I work in publishing and I work in the movie industry in L.A. And everyone is extremely liberal. And so when you have something like the election and people make comments like about a rightwing nut job or, you know, like all of those people in the other states and you pick a color and you go with your team, it's frustrating for me. You know, because I might agree with the politics of the people making those comments, but they're dismissing a whole group of people that are human beings. making those comments, but they're dismissing a whole group of people that are human beings. And so someone like my grandfather was a World War II vet. He was extremely conservative. He grew up in the Great Depression. There are reasons why he had the opinions. There's reasons why he was so tribal. But he was also so wonderful and loving and caring to me. My Uncle Pete, who was a Vietnam vet, he said a lot of offensive things, but he was

also the first person to recognize when I was in my 20s that I was struggling with anxiety, because he spent a lot of time at the VA. And so while he might say some things that I thought were offensive, he's also the guy that called me and said, hey, you seem awfully stressed out. You know, you're getting out. You know, don't hold up. You know, I spent a lot of time with veterans. You can't make those mistakes. Like, you have anxiety. It's what you have. And he was the first guy to reach out.

He was one of the first people to encourage me to write. And so when people just dismiss whole groups of people, especially I work with a lot of people who've never met anybody like my grandfather and my uncle. Right. It's frustrating. It's just as frustrating when I go home to my family and they make a comment about the people on the left. It's the same. And so oftentimes I find myself in isolation in the middle, not politically in the middle, but just I don't want to pick a team and dismiss a whole group of human beings based on their political preferences. I don't want to demonize them and say,

you know, this is the snowflake over here, so they're idiots, and these are the right-wing nutjobs over there, because there's no communication, and it's a lie on both sides. Yeah, and I think one of the ways to bridge the divide, I think, is meeting people that are different than you, talking to people that are different to you, which is very difficult to do. Like you talked about, the industries you work in, you're not going to find many people like that. I happen to be in Columbus, Ohio, which is like 50-50. You know, it's like right down the middle, you know, and so Ohio is an interesting place to be because I am exposed to both those things. And it's just interesting. And it's disheartening to me, you know, these days, kind of what the overall political discourse is, not just among the politicians, but even more

among, I mean, certainly the politicians too, but just people. Your book to me was a very thoughtful and useful way to look at that and, you know, to use art to shine a light on a current situation. Yeah, and I think comfort disturbed and disturbed comforted. I know that most of the people who are going to be in charge of promoting my book, and most of the people who are going to read it are probably going to skew left. And that was a conscious choice for me to set it from David's point of view. One review called it subversive, which, you know, the punk rocker in me back in the day was very proud of that. But, you know, I do think it was a conscious decision to say,

hey, I'm going to give you a character that is going to really frustrate you for 50 pages, but you're going to fall in love with this guy by the end. And it's going to challenge your worldview, and it's going to check to see how tolerant you really are. And that's one thing that sometimes frustrates me about the left, because we always hear about tolerance, tolerance, tolerance, except for,

you know, tolerance for people on the right who don't agree with us, who don't agree with us. And so, um, you know, for me, I practice tolerance all the time when I'm with my conservative family

members, especially with my grandfather, whom I loved or my uncle Pete, whom I was really close with in order to have a relationship with him. I had to practice tolerance and he had to practice tolerance with me, you know? And that was a real strong bond I had before they both passed. And so, I was hoping to provide that same experience, you know, through the vehicle of a novel or art for the reader. You did, and he really gets fleshed out as a whole person. You know, he would be the opposite of politically correct, right? And yet, some of it is just

hilarious, the things he says. And I'm going to go here, which I'm going to regret later, but I'm always interested in racism. I think we all are, and we're looking at it and trying to understand where we fit. And I look at people of a certain generation, and this guy was a Vietnam vet. I look at my mother, and there is this interesting categorization of a group of people. Like, you know, David does this in the book all the time, group of people. Like, you know, David does this in the book all the time, right? He's like, you know, you'd be an idiot to hire a straight man to do your flowers, right? Or you'd be an idiot to hire a white man to mow your lawn. Because these groups, gays and Mexicans, are known for, gays are known for being good at arranging flowers,

and Mexicans are known for mowing lawns. So they're making these generalities about people. But the interesting thing about him that I found about David was he has nothing against and even likes the people in those groups. So he's grouping them and he's sort of judging them by some stereotypes, which sometimes stereotypes become stereotypes to a certain extent because there's a kernel of truth in there. But yet, he likes those people. They are his friends. And I look at that and I go, is that racism? And again, this is going to get into a debate that I don't want to get into,

but I notice that in people, particularly of an older generation, and I see that very quality. They're sort of stereotyping people, but they like those people at the same time. They're friends with those people. And so it's just an interesting take on, you know, what is racism? Yeah, and I'm not so sure that I was trying to tackle with the book, what is racism? But the one thing I did want to question is, I think in this day and age, we've come to a point where if somebody uses a certain phrase or if somebody says a certain word or somebody fails to keep up with the changing political or the etiquette, the vocabulary, then all of a sudden we're supposed to put them in a box and we know every single thing about that person. And I've met people who use offensive language who have good qualities too.

And I think it's a lie when you say if somebody says a certain word, then therefore they don't count as a human being and we should just eradicate them from the planet. Also, with my grandfather, I struggle with this all the time. He grew up in a tribal system in Philadelphia. Literally, rough on the streets, you're stuck with the people in in your neighborhood and if you strayed into another neighborhood with a different ethnicity they would beat the hell out of you you know and that's that's the way that he grew up um same with you know my uncle in vietnam you know you spend a year where everyone you see who

is vietnamese is trying to kill you you, obviously that's going to affect you in a way that if you grew up in New York City at a time it wasn't war, obviously it doesn't cost you anything to be tolerant, you know? And so, you know, you never want to excuse racism, but I think you're never going to solve racism if we don't really get to the heart of why people are thinking what they're thinking. And if we just shame everyone for their thoughts before they get a chance to explain them, then we're never going to understand them. Yeah, I agree. I think it's shutting the conversation down. And it's a, I've heard the phrase, you know, we live in a culture of outrage. And that's the thing that I see most is just everybody is always all bent out of shape about something. And I look at a lot

of it and I go, well, I don't think that's really what that person meant. Like we can take that thing that they said and we can make them out to be an horrible person because of them. But I think we're taking it way out of context. There was one the other day where I showed Donald Trump and a foreign leader and she walked past him to shake his wife's hand. And the video, that was all you saw. And it looked like she snubbed him. Well, she shook his wife's hand. Then she turned, you know, it's just like she was already seeing her. And I looked at that as an example of taking something and sort of twisting it in a way to make it look worse than it really was to justify a worldview. And I don't like that. I mean, again,

politics aside, I'm not going to get into who I prefer and don't. I mean, and I think there's a lot of things that are really going wrong at a political level, but at a human level, I think that's what we're losing. And we just are all looking for something to be angry about. And I don't know why. I think because we're afraid. Yeah. And it gives us the illusion of making us feel safe. You know, I mean, that's all the rage, like safe spaces, and we need language that's not offensive. But people use offensive language to express emotions that exist. And you can't just shut down people's emotions. Just because somebody doesn't say a word or they don't use a phrase that's deemed offensive

doesn't mean that they're, on the inside, not offensive. It just means that they've on the inside not offensive you know it just means that they've learned to mask that right and so one of the things with my character david granger is because he's had brain brain surgery he has no filter he says everything that comes to his mind and so i think one of the reasons why a lot of people are enjoying him so much is because when he says the most horrific thing that comes to his mind, you think, I can't believe this guy just said this, but it makes you believe him when he says the good stuff. Because he's saying everything. So when he tells you how much he loves his granddaughter, or how much he loved his wife,

or how much he loves his country, or that he's befriended this gay couple, or he's befriended the quote, little yellow woman in spin class. You believe that those intentions are good because he would tell you if he had other intentions. There's no masking. There's no academic language or flowery language that he's using as a key to get through a door. He's just being himself. Right. And I think that's one of the things I want to get to with this book. I think that's one of the things that people have loved about Trump, is that he just says anything. Now, I don't think that's a great quality for the president of the United States, but I get it, right?

I mean, you don't have to wonder what he thinks. Well, I think the big difference between my character and Trump is any politician is not saying what they think they're saying what is going to get them power. Whereas my character, David Granger, is at the end of his life making this confession that's kind of almost like he has nothing to lose and he's coming out and just telling you he's not gaining anything from it. That's right, yeah. Except for perhaps redemption or some type of closure at the end of his life. Yep, I agree. I think it's different.

I think, but that's what, even though it may not be that case, you know, that's what people think is happening. They think somebody is finally saying what they think. Somebody is not being silenced and shamed into silence. Right. They're saying the things that you've been told you're not allowed to say.

And I think I'd probably get in trouble, but it's un-American to say you can't say things. To make a list of words and things and opinions that you can't express, it just goes against what America is. And that's not to say we don't have a right to say we don't like those opinions, but when we try to shut people down and say the way that we're going to protect everyone is by silencing these groups or

taking away the language of these people or, you know, make a list of rules that is constantly changing about what you're allowed to say. And by the way, you know, that is politically motivated as well. I think people find that frustrating. And I think people, you know, like, I think Trump and other people can exploit that frustration. And I think that's dangerous too. Tolerance all around. That's the idea. Well, I think honesty and discussion and transparency, you know, I think that's a big thing too. And I think my character, David Granger, he's completely transparent. And I think that's why the people who have really enjoyed him

love him because he's honest and i think he's funny because he says the things that he thinks right and i've often heard that uh humor is experiencing the unexpected that's it you know why do we laugh when someone trips when they're walking on the sidewalk it's not because we want them to get hurt it's because we didn't expect it to happen. And it just triggers the thing in us that, you know, the person trips, they didn't get hurt. We can laugh because it's a release. And I think we live in a time when everyone's just feeling so tense that we laugh when somebody says something audacious because we're like, oh, we forgot we're allowed to say audacious things. We forgot that we're in America and we can say whatever. Hey, y'all.

I'm Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, host of Therapy for Black Girls. And I'm thrilled to invite you to our January Jumpstart series for the third year running. girls. And I'm thrilled to invite you to our January Jumpstart series for the third year running. All January, I'll be joined by inspiring guests who will help you kickstart your personal growth with actionable ideas and real conversations. We're talking about topics like building community and creating an inner and outer glow. I always tell people that when you buy a handbag, it doesn't cover a childhood scar. You know, when you buy a jacket, it doesn't reaffirm what you love about the hair you were told not to love. So when I think about beauty, it's so emotional because it starts to go back into the archives of who we were, how we want to see ourselves and who we know ourselves to be and who we can be. It's a little bit of past, present and future all in one idea, soothing something from the past.

And it doesn't have to be always an insecurity. It can be something that you love. All to help you start 2025 feeling empowered and ready. Listen to Therapy for Black Girls starting on January 1st on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast,

our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts?

His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Bryan Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really, No Really, sir. Bless you all.

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And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really, No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Radio app on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. So hold on before you hit the fast forward button, pass the mid-roll. I've got Matthew Quick here with me who we're doing the interview and he has been kind enough to donate 10 signed copies of his new book. So we're going to do the contest that we've done before for everybody that since it's a signed copy, for everybody that pledges, you will be entered in a contest to win a signed copy of his book. And based on the donations, I bet you've got a really good chance of winning that. So, Matthew?

Yeah. And the reason why I donated the books is because I believe so much in the show. It's helped me and I want to help promote the show. And when I found the show, I was getting it for free every week. And at some point I found the show, I was getting it for free every week. And at some point, I thought this is something I would definitely pay for. And I have donated to the show. And if you win a book, the book would run you about 26 bucks. So that's quite a bargain if you win the book. Yeah. And it's signed. So again, within the next week, sign up for a donation and you'll be entered into a contest to get a signed copy of Matthew Quick's greatest book, which is wonderful. And now back to the interview with Matthew Quick. I was thinking back to our first interview, and I think one of the things that we talked about was you were talking about Silver Linings Playbook and how some people laughed and some people cried and totally different reactions. But the thing that I said, and I still stand by in this book as another great example, is that I feel like I can laugh and cry nearly in the same page. It's that blend that is so powerful to me in fiction,

to be able to trigger those two emotions simultaneously. And you're very good at that. Thank you. That's why I come on the show for comments like that. It's wonderful. But I think when you think about laughing and crying, there are two emotional responses that accomplish the same thing. They release tension. So they're very closely related. For me, being someone who's very anxious and someone who is an INFJ, who is an empath, I feel tension all the time. And so at a very young age, it became a coping mechanism to try to get people to laugh because it changed the energy that they're putting out, which would give me relief. And so people will say, do you consciously try to make jokes in your books? Do you try to make them funny? Or are you trying to trigger the tears? And no, I'm just going through the emotions of the characters. And I know that if I'm crying while

I'm writing, or if I'm laughing while I'm crying, that's probably a pretty good sign. But it's not, like I say, what is going to make me laugh or cry? I try to channel those emotions in an honest way. Yeah. You're talking about your anxiety. You mentioned to me, you're on a book tour this time, and it's a little bit different from you, and that you've made some changes in your life to be healthier. Is that something you want to me you're on a book tour this time and it's a little bit different from you and that you've made some changes in your life to be healthier is that something you want to talk about? I'd love to talk about that and I'd like to give you a lot of credit for that too

not to embarrass you but I've been listening to the show for three years now and it's become a really important part of my life every week just because it's just a reminder and I almost think of you as like a friend you know that just comes into my life every week just because it's just a reminder. And I almost think of you as like a friend, you know, that just comes into my ears every Tuesday or Wednesday morning or whenever I listen to it. And, you know, it's funny because like feeding that good wolf, you know,

and I first heard this show and I first heard the concept of it, I said, you know, this is a good thing for me. And I had known that I had a problem with food. I had a problem with food. I had a problem with alcohol. I had a problem with being obsessive about internet information, like I was talking about in the beginning. But there was a big part of me that thought, because I have anxiety, I can't function without alcohol. I can't go to a party without alcohol. I can't do a book tour without, you know, Klonopin or something. And that was a belief I had for myself. But as I listened to your show and I listened to other podcasts and read widely over the years, and I started this journey in my 20s of trying to figure out what was going on inside of me. And my wife's been a big part of it too. About a year ago, I said, all right, now it's time to face that lie. You know, it's time to like, and you know, and so I started running a lot and that started to give me relief from anxiety. And, um, then I said, well, you know, I'm reading all this stuff about, you know,

eating processed food and bad food and, you know, get rid of that. And that started making me feel better. And then the last thing was, it was alcohol, you know, and I'm not completely off alcohol. I have a drink every once in a while, but I started off thing was alcohol. And I'm not completely off alcohol. I have a drink every once in a while. But I started off with saying, I'm not going to drink for a month. And my friends and my wife said, that'll never happen. It's the way he's making it. But it was the first time when I said, yeah. The only other time I had done that was when I had gotten a blood test that said my liver was damaged. And so I had to go off alcohol for a month. And it turned out that the test was a fluke.

And so I was fine. And so my wife was upset because she thought I would stop drinking every night. And I just went right back to it. So this was this big test of going off alcohol for a month. And what I found this time was that my sleep was better and the anxiety went way down and my depression started to lift. And it's funny because you would think, okay, I have depression, so I'm going to put a depressive into my body every day. It sounds so ridiculous now, but it was a habit for so long. And so I just made this commitment to getting healthy and to drinking less and I've lost 48

pounds I've been running a lot you look great well thank you and it's funny because people will say that you keep saying you know you get a lot of affirmation you look great you look great but I didn't do it to look great at all I did it to like clean out my mind um and it just got to a point where I just was tired of waking up every morning a little hungover and a little anxious and, you know, counting down the hours so, you know, I could have that drink at the end of the day. And it's been really freeing. And, you know, I hesitate to say all this because for so many years, whenever I would hear this message, like, if you stop drinking, you sleep better. I was like, yeah, but I'm not going to stop. Like, that's so uncool. Or like, everyone drinks. What

am I going to do? Go out to the bar. And I have another friend that runs all the time and he always goes to bed at nine o'clock. And when I first started hanging out with him, I thought, you know, it's so lame. But now that I'm running and eating healthy, I love going to bed early. It's so weird. It's just transformed everything in my mind. But it's been much better and this tour has been a lot less anxious for me, you know, surprise, surprise, right? You know, I've been running every day on tour and working out and no alcohol, no Klonopin. So there's no thought getting up in the morning, like I need to take another Klonopin or, you know, and the other thing that would happen on book tour is I try to get off the

Klonopin, I go through withdrawal. And there are people that say Klonopin's, you know, as addictive or more addictive than heroin. You know, a lot of people will say that. And I would go through really, really bad withdrawal and I'd be depressed for weeks after book tour. And, you know, that's just not a good way to live. I got tired of it. You know, I got tired of looking at the lie, like looking in the mirror and saying, you're justifying all these things that you know, aren't good for you. aren't good for you. And I guess I'll be a little bit candid too. I think one of the things that I really started to square up with was the fact that there's a big part of me that thought I didn't deserve to be healthy. There's a big part of me that thought you don't deserve

the success you've had. There's a big part of me that thought, you don't deserve the success you've had. You know, there's a big part of me that thought, you don't deserve the love that you're getting. And, you know, looking back, I almost, you know, I say this with a little hesitation, but I really do believe it. I think it was a slow form of suicide. I really do. Like, I think it was a big part of myself that said, you're not worth it. You don't deserve this. And you should put poison into your body every day and make yourself sick because you're not good enough. And the drinking perpetuates it, right? Because every time that you think I shouldn't be doing that and you do it, you reinforce that

message. Oh, look, I'm not good enough, right? I said I was not going to do this. And I did it again. So, you know, here I am. And I think that's the that's the insidious thing. And you know, addiction is like such a weird thing. It's such a spectrum, right? There's, yeah, you know, there's like, one end is, you know, people who just have no tendency towards to and the other end is people who, you know, die, you know, not being able to quit. And there's a lot of people in between. But I think the insidious thing about it is that it does work for a while, right? There's a reason people keep going to alcohol or other things, because it does work. I mean, if I were to take two drinks right now, I would feel better than I felt probably in a month, or in a long time, for about 15 minutes.

Right? And then it would kind of go downhill from there. And then I don't feel good. So how do I get to feel good again? I drink again. And the more I drink, the less good I feel. And so, I mean, it's just such a tough cycle. It is. And this time around, the first night of book tour, it was in my hometown. And there's going to be a few hundred people there. And there's going to be a lot of people I hadn't seen for a while. Expectations were super high. And the three hours before were really, really tough for me. And I wanted a drink for the first time in months so badly. Not because socially or it wasn't just to relax.

It was because I felt like I needed a drink. I needed the Klonopin. But the funny thing was when I did the event, it was because I felt like I needed a drink. I needed the Klonopin. But the funny thing was when I did the event, it was great, alcohol, drug-free. And afterward, I was talking to my wife and I said, I think I'm going to go to sleep. It was a really cool event. It was good. And she's like, you do realize that you're way different now, like on the other side of it. Because I passed on the short-term relief, I'd, I'd get sleep that night and the next day I'd get up and I was fine. So you get through that three hours window of the struggle, it doesn't carry over to the next day. And the next day it gets a little bit easier. Yeah. I always say, I think people think about

not drinking or cutting back on drinking. And when you do it at first, it feels terrible. It does. And you think that's what consuming less alcohol or being back on drinking. And when you do it at first, it feels terrible. It does. And you think that's what consuming less alcohol or being sober is like. You're like, this sucks. And it's the hanging in there long enough to get to the other side of that. I always say that getting sober is horrible, but being sober is pretty great. And I stay sober a lot sometimes just on the fact I don't ever want to have to do it again. I don't ever want to have to cross that divide again because it is really difficult. I don't know that I'm an addict in the sense that I would get up and get the shakes. It was more that I have social anxiety and that was a cheat for me. And I became very dependent on that in

social situations. But I will say that since I've cut down on drinking, I learned a few things that one beer doesn't really do anything for me. And so if I'm really exercising and counting my calories, all of a sudden, I don't want to drink it anymore. And, you know, I love scotch. And, you know, I found that it used to be, you know, six months ago, it'd take me four scotches to get a high. Now I just have one scotch and I feel pretty buzzed. And, you know, like that's, I can do just one, you know, like once a week or once every two weeks. That's the key right there. I don't think everybody needs to be completely abstinent, right? Some people are able, once they can turn it off, to sort of use it like a normal human being can. And boy, if I could pick a superpower to have, I think that's the one I'd pick.

But I've proven to myself over and over it doesn't work. I don't have just one. Yeah, and everyone's... The train gets rolling and it happens fast. So I'm just different in that way. But I certainly don't think that you have to be completely abstinent to improve your relationship with alcohol. Yeah, it's different for everyone. I had a talk the other day with a good friend of mine who struggles with anxiety. And he needs to take anxiety meds.

That's his game. He has to have them. So I would never advocate for him to give up his anxiety meds. I just knew for me that the Klonopin was something that I wanted to not do and then see if I could do it. And it worked out for me. So everyone's path is different. That's right. And I like to emphasize that.

I just knew in my heart that I wasn't being the best version of me. And there were dark reasons for that. And my wife knew it too. And I just kind of woke up and said, I do want to be the best version of me. And that includes drinking less and eating healthy and exercising. And it's made a big... Hey, y'all. I'm Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, host of Therapy for Black Girls. And I'm thrilled to invite you to our January Jumpstart series for the third year running. All January, I'll be joined by inspiring guests who will help you kickstart your personal growth with actionable ideas and real conversations. We're talking about topics like building community

and creating an inner and outer glow. I always tell people that when you buy a handbag, it doesn't cover a childhood scar. You know, when you buy a jacket, it doesn't reaffirm what you love about the hair you were told not to love. So when I think about beauty, it's so emotional because it starts to go back into the archives of who we were,

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starting on January 1st on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The difference. There were a few themes that ran through the book. Obviously, you know, we talked earlier about the political theme or the, you know, respecting people of different views. The other one really is the power of the past to continue to live on. And you're describing a Vietnam veteran who had suffered greatly and continues to suffer in his life. And so I just thought we could maybe talk about that for a minute. You know, how strongly does the past control what we do today? And I think, you know, it's probably different for everyone, right? And what you went through. But I've read things like that before. And every time I do, when I read about what somebody went through in war, I have a completely different perspective about who that person is and what they went through.

And unfortunately, I don't think it sticks as well as it could, because then when I read another one again, I'm like, oh yeah, it reminds me. But it was really powerful about the trauma he suffered. Yeah. I was having a conversation with my buddy down in OBX, and we were talking about karma. And I won't get exactly how he said it, but I'll paraphrase. And his thought was basically, it doesn't really matter if you believe, if you have faith in karma or not, because every experience that you have on earth creates a memory and that changes the software of your brain. So it will literally affect the rest of your life, every memory. So whether you believe in karma or not, the things that you do and the things that you experience

are going to radically affect the rest of your life. And I think that that's true. And there are definitely people who would read David Granger's voice in my book and, you know, close it after five pages and just say, no, like, I am not going to listen to this. Like, he checked off whatever box. And, you know, I've met people that I would not have introduced to my grandfather, who was a World War II vet, or my uncle was a Vietnam vet, because I knew that they would just say no. And I think that that's a shame, because my relationship with those two men really colored my life in a profound way. They were two of the only men when I was a child who showed me love in a real way. And they were really unlikely people to do that. I've told this story often,

but my uncle would always threaten to kill me if I hugged him. He was like, don't hug me. I don't do hugs. And somewhere in my 20s, I just said, I'm going to do this. I remember I said, Pete, I'm going to hug you. I'm going to hug you. This is my Vietnam vet uncle. And he said, I'll kill you if you hug me. I'm going to punch you in the face. And I remember I just went for him, put my arms around him and held on. And he started punching my back as hard as he could, kidney punches. And I said, I'm just going to hold on. And I held on for 30 seconds and the punches slowed. And then he just, his face just broke out in this like wonderful smile, you know? And it was one of these profound moments in my life because I learned that this man who was outwardly projecting,

you know, this image of being tough and owned all these guns and, you know, was always talking about violent things and tribalism, he really wanted a hug. You know, that's what he wanted. You know, he was this guy that had been thrown into this situation that was unfathomable, that would scar any of us. There's a quote in the book that I talk about, anyone who's been in war for a certain amount of time is considered legally insane. That's going to affect you. And then on top of that, of course, people with mental health syndromes or PTSD is one of those, you get the added stigma of being called crazy or whatever. And, you know, that's frustrating. And so I think, you know, the book, I hope it's a call for, you know, looking a little bit deeper

and, you know, seeing that sometimes really unlikely alliances can be made if we're willing to be compassionate and tolerant. And sometimes those alliances are the things that change your life. And quite literally, you know, my uncle was one of these guys that, you know, he was one of the few people who really encouraged me to take a chance on my art. You know, really unlikely source of inspiration, but, you know, he was not somebody who understood the publishing world or how that works, but he was somebody who loved me and encouraged me at a time that I needed it. that works, but he was somebody who loved me and encouraged me at a time that I needed it. Yep. It's an interesting concept to me about the role of the past or karma. Like you speak,

I agree. I think it's kind of self-evident that what we've done in the past affects who we are today. Sort of like believing that the mind is different from the body, right? There's a connection. I don't, it seems completely self-evident to me. One of the things that I find really interesting though, and we had Gabor Mate on, and he's an addiction specialist, and he was saying to a certain extent that at a certain point, the damage is so severe, the trauma is so great, that the range of recovery is really limited. And I think that's a really interesting concept, it it raises so many questions legally and and in so many different ways about what extent and what degree of choice do we have you know the if you if you get determinists on who are like you know strong in physics will say well there's no free will at all everything is determined which to me also sounds like all right hold on you know it doesn't that

doesn't make sense but i do think we're simultaneously freer than we think we are and not as free in certain ways as we'd like to believe. I think there's probably a range, right? I think we're each, with the experience that we're given, if it's a scale of one to 10, some of us are going to be able to score two to five, and so you shoot for the five. Some people might be in the five to eight range. And so you shoot for the eight. And I think in my relationships with people, especially family members, that you can't just edit out of your life. You got to look at it and say, you know, like with my uncle Pete was some things, you know, and it came to like being tolerant, you know, like he's not going to change. Yeah. His range on some things might've been like one to three.

And if he hit that three, it was a good day, you know? And, you know, I think that's what's interesting about human beings. You know, that's why you can't make these blanket rules, like thou shalt not, or if then statements, like if this person does this or says this, then it means that thing. That's just simply not true. Like, you can't just have a blanket statement for everyone because everyone's different. Yeah. Yeah. I find that idea of, you know, one to five, because I've read, you know, a lot about, you know, happiness and mental health, and they say there's a happiness set point for certain people, right? And some degree you can move it, you know, up or

down based on what you do. And there is a relatively good amount of movement you can do that depends on your actions and your environment, what you do. And then there's just a certain point. And so with me, I've kind of accepted to some degree, like, I think that happiness set point just isn't real high. You know, I think I've worked and I do the best I can to get to a point where I don't suffer, right? By and large. And I think I'm kind of happy, but I'm not one of those people that's just going to be bouncing around all day, every day, thrilled about everything. Like it just doesn't, and it's so, it's relieving to me on one hand to be able to let go of that and just say, you know what, this is kind of who I am and I'm going to do the best I can with what I've got.

And again, the range, maybe I can make myself 20 or 30% happier, which is a lot. We've got a lot that we can do in our own lives. And yet, at a certain point, experience, biology, genes, all that stuff does have a role also. And so I guess I would say, when I think about that, and I'm kind of talking out loud, it kind of gets back to the what can you control and what can salesman, if I was an extrovert who could gain energy by being around people, I'd probably be much better at selling my books. But I'm an introvert, and that means I'm good at spending time alone in a room, and I'm good at writing books. And sometimes I start to feel, well, how unfair is it that most authors I know are introverts,

and yet they expect you to go on book tour and do social media all the time and be this extroverted person? And then I say to myself, you're thinking about it the wrong way. You can reframe it and say, I'm an introvert, and I'm managing on book tour, and I had some really awesome experiences, and I'm going to do this for a couple weeks, and then I'm going to go back. And I'm going to do these events, and if I reframe what I'm going to do this for a couple of weeks and I'm going to go back and I'm going to do these events and that, you know, they're going to, if I reframe like what I'm trying to get out of them. So what I say to myself is, you know, I'm not trying to

get on the news or sell a billion copies. I'm going to give a talk. And if I connect with one or two people at that talk, if a couple of people come up to me and say, Hey, you know, something you said, especially about the mental health stuff, really connected with me. And thank you for coming. It made me feel better or made me feel less alone. Even if they don't buy a book, I say, that's a win. That's on mission for me. Because that resonates with me at the core level. That makes me feel less alone in the world. And of course, I'm trying to sell as many books as possible. But if I focus on that, that's where the depression starts to come. That's right.

Yep. You know, and another thing, too, my wife. Because you can't control that. No. And it's always, you know, focus on process, not result. Right. You know, which this show is always about. And it's constantly reminding me.

And, you know, sometimes you get what you need along the way. You know, I think when you focus on process, and that's different for everyone. But, you know, as somebody who's had some nice successes in the way, you know, I think when you focus on process and that's different for everyone, but, you know, as somebody who's had some nice successes in the past, before you get those successes, you think that's what you need and you think that that will be the place where you feel okay. And it's not, you know, it's never, it never, the anxiety was even more present when the successes came. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that's another theme on the show. We talk about a lot that is, you know, it's that external stuff isn't going to fix what you think's wrong with you. Again, you know, for people who live in extreme poverty

and deprivation, let's take that out of the, you know, that's not what we're talking about here. But for most of us that live a fairly comfortable, you know, life, it's not becoming more comfortable or having more money. You know, for me, it's not getting, you know, in, it's not becoming more comfortable or having more money. You know, for me, it's not getting, you know, in the top 10 list of iTunes. Like, that's not going to change the things that go on with me mentally, right? That's just not going to do it. It's going to feel good for a little bit, but that's not what the game is about. Or it becomes a new addiction. Like, I mean, for me, when I was in the MFA, the only thing I wanted more than anything in the world is to be a New York Times bestseller.

That's what I wanted. And then as soon as I became a New York Times bestseller, the thing that would happen would be people would ask me, when is your next book going to be a New York Times bestseller? And then it became this bar that, oh, I got to do it again. And I've got to perform the trick again and again. And you get on that hamster wheel and you forget why you started writing books in the first place. And the truth was, when I started writing books at 16, it wasn't because I didn't even know what the New York Times bestseller list was when I was 16. I was this blue collar kid that had all these weird feelings going on. And when I wrote words down in a notebook,

it made those feelings go away and gave me relief. And when I shared the stories with my girlfriend at the time or my friends and they thought it was cool and maybe it made them feel a little bit better, I enjoyed that communion. And I do to this day. And when I get back to that, that's when stuff starts feeling better mental health-wise. And at these events, if I start looking at where my book is in the bookstore, what's the best seller? How many people come? Yeah, or did the book owner like my book? Because you can always tell when they...

Instead of just saying, there's somebody in the audience right now who's giving me eye contact the whole time, and they're getting something from what I'm saying today. And it doesn't matter if they bought a book because I've been given a lot and I'm here to give back. I'm not here to focus on sales or all that other distraction that leads to misery. I'm here to engage with my core values, with other human beings who are going, the same stuff I'm going through on this, you know, big blue marble. And that's when the anxiety starts to dissipate, you know, and that's when you get on mission, you get on point, and you just have to keep going,

but you got to keep taking yourself back to that good place of, you know, what is the thing that you really, really want to do? Yeah. And, you know, again, your show has been a great reminder of that. And, you know, even this interview, I had no anxiety coming on this because it was something that I really wanted to do because I believe in the mission of the show and I knew we were going to have a great conversation today. I'm really enjoying it. So I didn't feel any anxiety walking in here. And that's how I know

I'm in the right place. I was like, you know, I agree with you. I feel like, all right, I'm going to meet a friend. So yeah, it's been a great talk. Thanks for coming on. Congratulations on your success. The book is called The Reason You Are Al alive and it is really great so i'd encourage folks to check it out all right thanks so much for coming by matthew hey my absolute pleasure thanks for having me bye If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a donation to the One You Feed podcast. Head over to oneyoufeed.net slash support.