The One You Feed - Megan Feldman Bettencourt

Episode Date: December 30, 2015

This week we talk to Megan Feldman Bettencourt about forgivenessMegan Feldman Bettencourt is an award-winning writer and journalist. She has reported from many countries, and her journalism has appeared in publications including The San Francisco Chronicle, Psychology Today, Salon, The Daily Beast, Glamour, Newsday and many others. Megan is the author of the internationally-acclaimed book, TRIUMPH OF THE HEART: FORGIVENESS IN AN UNFORGIVING WORLD, which explores forgiveness through science, stories and memoir. She holds a master's degree from the Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism. Our Sponsor this Week is Thrive Market! Wholesome Products. Wholesale Prices.In This Interview, Megan and I Discuss...The One You Feed parableDrinking poison and expecting your enemy to dieThe story that got her interested in researching forgivenessHer definition of forgiveness- giving up resentmentHow forgiveness is not about enabling someone to avoid accountabilityHow Forgiveness and justice are not mutually exclusiveForgiving because it benefits usThe toxic effects of resentment on our bodyThe process of learning to forgiveGrieving and feeling the emotions are part of the forgiveness practiceEngaging the part of the brain that is more able to become forgiving For more show notes visit our websiteSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

That's what letting go is. It's realizing that you can't move forward when you're holding the tail of the past, you know? I mean, you're not going to go anywhere. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like, garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit.

But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction. How they feed their good wolf. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like

why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, And does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. The Really No Really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Megan Feldman Bettencourt, an award-winning writer and journalist.

Megan has reported from many countries, and her journalism has appeared in publications including the San Francisco Chronicle, Psychology Today, Salon, Glamour, Newsday, and many others. Megan is the author of the internationally acclaimed book, Triumph of the Heart, Forgiveness in an Unforgiving World, which explores forgiveness through science, stories, and memoir. She holds a master's degree from the Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism in New York City. And here's the interview with Megan Feldman Bettencourt. Hi, Megan. Welcome to the show. Thank you. It's good to be here. I am excited to have you on. Your book is called Triumph of the Heart, Forgiveness in an Unforgiving World. to have you on. Your book is called Triumph of the Heart, Forgiveness in an Unforgiving World. And you have in it one of my favorite quotes of all time, which is, I won't get it exact, but Nelson Mandela talking about how hating other people or resenting other people is like drinking poison and expecting your enemy to die. And that phrase has been incredibly helpful to

me in my life once I truly understood it as a true fact. Yes, it's a powerful quote and message. Absolutely. So we will get much deeper into all that here in a minute, but let's start like we always do with the parable. There's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson. He says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and he thinks about it for a second. He looks up at his grandfather and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed.

So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life, in the work that you do, and maybe any ways that you feed the good wolf in your own life. Sure. So I have always been really interested in how people cultivate fulfilling lives, maybe in spite of very difficult circumstances. I was raised as the daughter of a psychologist and grew up hearing a lot of stories about difficult childhoods and difficult experiences. And so I was always interested in how people, you know, became happy and loved their lives in spite of the difficult parts. And more and more in recent years, as we've looked at the research that's come out about positivity and about different practices and ways to change the brain and maintain feelings of fulfillment, for example, the more we've learned about the truth, the real powerful and extreme truth of that parable about the wolves. And that, you know, it really is the way we think and the way we act that determines which wolf controls us. And I would say that that really is a perfect setup for my book. Because when you talk about forgiveness, Because when you talk about forgiveness and you think about, you know, forgiving versus really living in blame and resentment and anger, or learning how to let go of those or channel them productively in order to feed that other wolf. That's all about love and peace and fulfillment and happiness and joy. Yeah. And I think that, you know, the thing that

prompted you to write the book, the story about Azeem is probably as clear a, you know, telling of the wolves parable as as there could be, right? I mean, yeah, he made a very clear choice. Do you want to tell listeners the story that got you interested in exploring forgiveness? Yes. So a few years ago, I did a magazine story about a man named Azeem Kamisa. And Azeem experienced what most of us fear most, those of us who are parents, which is that his only son, Tariq, was murdered by a group of teenage gang members, and one in particular, who was 14 at the time. They had planned to rob him. He was a pizza delivery guy on the side of finishing his college degree, and he was delivering a pizza, and these teens approached him and tried to rob him of the pizza and ended up shooting and killing him. And Azeem talks about

how when he got the phone call to notify him about his son's death, he passed out cold on his kitchen floor. And when he came to, there was this mysterious phrase in his mind that he attributes to God. And that phrase is, there were victims on both ends of the gun. And he ended up forgiving this young man who killed his son. And not only that, he ended up forgiving and becoming friends with the young man's family, and in particular, the young man's grandfather, with whom he formed this extraordinary organization that does violence prevention work and education in at-risk schools around the country. Yeah, that's an amazing story because the normal reaction and the reaction that nobody

could really even be blamed for would be one of a great deal of hatred towards the people that did that to his son. But he chose forgiveness. Now, I think maybe we could go into what forgiveness is and what it isn't, because I think that hearing something like what he did sounds almost like dealing with a saint. And, you know, I don't think that's exactly what it is. So can you tell us what your definition of forgiveness is? Yes. My definition, the best, most accessible definition that I found in a year and a half of research is a very simple Merriam-Webster's definition, which is giving up resentment. And giving up resentment, it doesn't rule out being angry. Like a lot of us would think it does. You know, like you say, when we hear that he forgave that person, we think, wow, you know, how could he

possibly do that? Does that mean that he wasn't angry or upset? And in fact, it doesn't mean that. Azeem was absolutely angry. He was depressed and he went through, you know, those phases or experiences and emotions that anyone would go through after such a horrific tragedy, including at one point being suicidal. However, he says he knew on a visceral level that if he didn't somehow find a way to forgive, and he didn't use the words give up resentment, but in our conversations and in my time with him, it became clear that that's what he was talking about. He knew that if he didn't give up resentment, he could never have the quality of life that he wanted. He said he knew he would always be a victim of his blame and anger. And so what's interesting to me is that forgiving didn't mean that he wasn't angry. It meant that he

channeled that anger in a productive way. So that meant for him being very upset about the state of gun violence in the United States and doing something about it. And so every day he channels that anger and grief over what happened because he'll never get over it. But every day he channels it into this effort to prevent any other child from dying the way his did or from going to prison the way Tony did. Right. And I think a lot of people assume that, like you said, that forgiveness means you don't get angry. People think forgiveness is like letting somebody completely off the hook. And that's not what you're talking about here. It's not. It's really, it's not enabling someone to avoid accountability. And that's really important. You know, some people, especially

if you're talking about something like sexual assault, might think, if I forgive, that means I can't pursue charges or I can't press charges or even file a lawsuit. And that's absolutely not true. And you can have forgiveness with justice. They are not mutually exclusive. Right. And you're not talking about the need for forgiveness or the importance of forgiveness. You're not coming at this from a moral perspective. You're not coming at it from, that's what God wants you to do, or that's what whatever wants you to do. You're coming at it really from, if we go back to that Nelson Mandela quote, you're coming at it from the fact that when we really hate someone

or have resentment for someone for a long, long period of time, we suffer greatly from that. And so what did you learn about why we would want to forgive? What are the benefits? Because we're really doing it for ourselves, right? Yes. And that's really where I started, because I have to say, I have never really been a naturally forgiving person. I'm much more likely to hold a grudge. I'm quick to anger. That's my natural temperament. And so when I, when I did the story, I found myself really confounded and very intrigued and troubled at the same time, because I've always kind of enjoyed, you know, feeling righteous anger, for example. And so I wanted to know, that's what I wanted to know. I wanted to know, is there a real benefit to this? And if so, what is it? know there's a large body of research about the detriment of anger and resentment over time on our bodies, right? It's similar to stress, but anger specifically puts us more at risk for heart

attack, high blood pressure, excuse me, and also anxiety and depression. Whereas what I didn't know and what I found was there's this body of research from the last 20 years where studies specifically on forgiveness show how it can alleviate symptoms like depression, anxiety, heart issues as well. Cardiac patients actually were found in different studies to be less at risk to have a massive fatal heart attack if they were forgiving, as opposed to if they held a grudge. Right. Not to mention just much better day-to-day sanity and quality of life. Yes. Because stress really, you know, when you think about anger, the anger response, it really is the stress response, which means adrenaline, cortisol, norepinephrine,

all those stress hormones flooding your brain. And over time, they not only tend to make you depressed, but they inhibit your ability to problem solve and think creatively, which really, if you think about it, gets in the way of so many parts of life. Discount. As we head into the new year, a lot of people are thinking about New Year's resolutions or trying to get the year off to a good start. We've got a couple spots open in the coaching program right now. So if you're interested in getting some help and a little extra boost in getting the year off to a great start, go to oneufeed.net slash coaching. And you can find the details there and book a 15-minute introductory call with me where we can talk more about it and see if it might be a good fit.

And now back to the interview with Megan Feldman Bettencourt. As listeners of the show know, I'm... I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like... Why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal?

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very early in my life, I got clean the first time when I was very young. I was exposed to the idea that resentment is really bad. And in some of the 12-step literature, they refer to it as the number one offender, being the number one reason that people go back out drinking. Right? Yes. And I think that's why it, for me, I really somehow internalized that truth that I was the one that was suffering. And once I think, at least for me, once I really internalized it, it wasn't really so much a question of should I do this or not. It was how do I do it? Right.

And so what did you learn about how people can go about forgiving? Because that sounds lovely, right? But when you are in the grips of that anger or that pain or all that stuff, it's not enough to just go, well, I forgive. And, you know, it's like positive thinking. You just can't turn on your happy face and everything is fine. Exactly. So what are places that people can start and what does the process look like? Right. Well, when it comes to, when it comes to pretty, pretty severe offenses, like the one Azeem experienced losing his son, that's, that's a really, really huge

experience, obviously. So something like that really requires grieving. And one thing that was surprising to me is that I found that the people who I interviewed and spent time with who seemed to be really good at forgiving tended to be good at grieving. And even when we're talking about less severe offenses, maybe not grieving is the word, but being authentic and allowing themselves to feel their feelings. You know, there's this kind of silly expression, but I think it holds true. What you resist persists. It's one of my favorite phrases.

It's great. I mean, it sounds kind of flip, but it really is true. And so, you know, Azeem grieved after he lost his son, he really allowed he gave himself. He gave himself that, you know, he allowed himself to feel it. And, and he talks about the Rumi quote about the only cure for the pain is the pain. Yeah, that's another great. And that's another great one. or feeling hurt or not speaking to someone. But so just allowing yourself to feel whatever it is gives it such less grip on you. So that's one thing.

And another is developing, if not empathy, at least some level of understanding for whoever committed an offense against you that you might be trying to forgive. Because in some cases, it might be easy to empathize with someone. You know, I interviewed people in my chapter about forgiving parents, about forgiving a whole range of things when it came to childhood and our parents. And, you know, some people were able to develop that sense of understanding and empathy pretty easily by saying, so one example is once this woman's mother was mentally ill and she didn't know exactly what her mother had. It turns out she was bipolar at a time when that disorder had not been discovered

or defined, much less treated. But this woman, she knew that her mother was not capable of the sort of parenting that other parents were. And so she was able to empathize on some level with her mom. And other people, like for example, a young man whose father had left him or who kind of appeared off and on throughout his life, mostly to disappoint him again, he didn't necessarily have that empathy. You know, his father was not ill. But over time, he was able to build this level of kind of understanding with his father. And he did end up having a conversation with him and learning that his father actually was afraid that he would be like him. And that's one reason he stayed away. So any way we can develop some understanding for why someone

behaved the way they did, it makes it a lot easier to forgive. Yeah, a few things come up for me when you say that one is we had a guy on the show a while ago, Kerry Patterson. He wrote a book called Crucial Conversations, which is really great. But they've got a line in there, which is to kind of ask yourself, like, why would somebody behave like this? What would cause somebody to behave like this? Because it gets you in the thinking about what that might be like. that might be like. Actually, in the book, you refer to it that that the very process by trying to think about why somebody might have done what they do engages the part of the brain that is the part of the brain that is more able to become forgiving. And it takes less energy away from

that more reptilian part of the brain. And, and then the last thing would be, I've got a great approach for forgiveness, which is or develop an empathy, which is if you screw up as often as I have in my life, it becomes very easy to emphasize with others with the challenges they have. Well, I would say the more aware you are and the more ownership you take of that, because I promise you there are a lot of people who have made a lot of mistakes, but they don't recognize it. And it's easier to blame other people. And obviously you have made a practice out of really being aware of how you relate to other people and what actions you take. And when you've made mistakes, you have a practice of owning up to them. And so what's interesting and I think really important about what you just said is that the more we can be responsible and accountable for our mistakes without beating

ourselves up and hating ourselves and indulging in self-loathing, the more we can be accountable and also compassionate with ourselves, the more compassionate we can be with other people. Because we realize that as Pema Chodron says, they're up against what we're up against. Exactly. One of the things in the book that you talk about, and it's related to empathy, and you say that one of the ways to, you know, to work towards forgiveness is to recognize maybe that it's not as personal as you think it is. And to realize that other people have suffered the same thing as well. It reminds me of, there's an old Buddhist story where a woman comes to the Buddha and she's just out of her mind with

grief because her son died. And she's like, what can you do? Can you bring him back? And the Buddha says, all right, here's what I want you to do. I want you to go find me, bring me a mustard seed from a house where no one has suffered. And so the woman goes door to door to door looking for this. And, you know, over and over, what she finds, of course, is that everybody has had these awful things happen to her. And so obviously, her son is not brought back. But what happens is she realizes she's not so alone in it. That's right. And I love that story. I love that story, because it's so true. And I think for all of us, whether it's something as extreme as losing a child or experiencing a war or something more every day, like, you know, being fired from our job or,

you know, losing a relationship or being broken up with getting divorced. It's so easy to think or to feel like you're alone in that experience when in fact it's the opposite, right? Like that story shows. And that's actually part of Dr. Robert Enright's process in his clinical practice, helping people forgive. And Dr. Enright is one of the kind of founding fathers of forgiveness research. And he talks about that, about imagining how many other people have experienced that, and in a lot of cases, actually connecting with those people. And that's why for people who have gone through specific things, it's really helpful to connect with other people who have experienced that same thing. It definitely is. I mean, I think, you know, you reference 12-step programs in the book a couple

times and, you know, the efficacy of them. And, you know, there's a lot of debate out there. And, you know, I think some of the reasons that those programs work are not the reasons that they themselves think they work. But one of the big things that I think is important in those is that you recognize that you're not alone. Yes. You hear other people say the things that have gone in your head and you go, Oh, wait, I'm like that. And that, that is such a, you know, when you're really struggling, that is such, and it doesn't matter what the struggle is. That is so comforting. It is. And I think there's, I think it's also helpful when you're developing or aiming to develop a level of self-compassion, because speaking with

people and spending time with people who have gone through what we've gone through, it helps us not to feel alone. And it also helps us to realize that, you know, if they've gone through that and they're not terrible people and they didn't do something that made them deserve that horrible thing, you know, then we probably didn't either. And, you know, one important part of forgiveness comes down to forgiving ourselves. And I think that's lost in a lot of conversations about forgiveness. Right. Now you say that in order to be able to forgive, there are some conditions that are usually favorable that make it easier to forgive. What are the things that are important to sort of be there to help us with that process?

Sure. Well, we know that getting an apology or some sort of accountability statement along with remorse from the offender does make it easier. The tricky thing about that is that if you make your forgiveness contingent upon an apology and an authentic one with remorse, then you're really giving that person even more power over you. And you're handing over the reins of your wellbeing, which, you know, which is not a good thing. Um, so I think it's important to know that that does make it easier, but it's also important to know that you don't have to have an apology in order to forgive that you can, you can do that on your own. And that you may not

reconcile with someone this kind of goes back to what you asked about in terms of what forgiveness is not, but it's not necessarily reconciling. And so I think that makes it more accessible, necessarily reconciling. And so I think that makes it more accessible that, you know, there may be grounds to reconcile. For example, the person has apologized or taken accountability. The person is safe, you know, and has provided assurance and maybe evidence that they won't hurt you again, and so on. But keeping in mind that those two things are different, forgiveness and reconciliation. Right, they don't necessarily go together. And I think so you were saying that one is ideally, if somebody expresses remorse, or apologizes, that helps. And then the other that you touched on was sort of the safety thing. It's hard to forgive, if you're sort of

still in danger of the same thing happening to you again. Right. So in this, you know, one thing that comes up a lot in this conversation is often dangerous relationships or abusive relationships. You know, when really, I mean, the first thing to do is make sure that you're safe and protected, and then you can work on forgiving. And maybe one day you reconcile, maybe you don't, but absolutely safety is very important. I don't know if I'll call it false forgiveness, but that forgiveness that happens in abusive relationships is not what we're talking about here. No. And, and, and I think, I don't even know if I would call that forgiveness. I think I would call that a lack of self-advocacy and a lack of boundaries. You know, there was an interesting study that I read about in the book where this researcher looked at a number of marriages.

And it was, I think, the first two to three years of a certain number of marriages. And he found that in the couples where one person was often transgressing against the other, and that could be with sarcasm, you know, or insults, snapping at them, etc. And the other person was kind of constantly or routinely forgiving that. The effect was that they got more of that negative behavior. And so that really tells us that is keeping yourself, that is not advocating for yourself. That is, you know, failing to lay down a boundary and say, this doesn't work. Yep. There's some old phrase I can't remember that goes along with that, which is something like,

you get what you allow, or it's it's something to that degree. And I certainly have been in that position of like trying to be the ultra forgiving, just it's all fine, it's all fine. Until I basically set up a situation in which that the expected behavior was that the other person would be unkind and I would forgive it. And boy, once you're in that pattern, it's so hard to undo it. It is. It is. And what's interesting is that I think, I don't think I'm alone in this. When I was reporting the book and writing it, I really had to confront that in my relationships, particularly in my romantic relationships, for a long time I had vacillated between those two extremes. acting as this kind of doormat and setting up that dynamic that you describe where, you know, I'm just saying, oh, that's fine that you insulted me, or that's fine that you got drunk and humiliated both of us or whatever it was, and then vacillating to the other extreme of overreacting

in certain different situations. So I had to really look at that. And, you know, and in my marriage now, I find myself much more willing to rock the boat, you know, by laying down a boundary and calling out something that doesn't work for me. But I'm also less likely to overreact. So I think I've found some more balance in between those two extremes. Let's talk about adrenaline management i love that term yeah it's a great term and i actually i quoted dr fred luskin of the stanford forgiveness projects talking about adrenaline management and i think it's so brilliant because that's really what this is. If you think about what's happening in the brain, when we react in anger, and every time we even think of a grudge, even if we don't do anything about it, even just thinking about a grudge, we experience that stress response with the flood of adrenaline in our brains

and throughout our bodies. that stress response with the flood of adrenaline in our brains and throughout our bodies. And the parts of the brain that are activated are those primitive parts that some people call the reptilian parts of the brain, right? The amygdala, which is the fight or flight part. And the more we can actually interrupt that by observing it, like merely just observing it actually disrupts that stress cascade reaction and activates the frontal lobe, which is responsible for reason, problem solving, empathizing with other people, you know, forgivability judgments, which is thinking about whether or not someone merits forgiveness, all of those things. So observing our reaction is the first step to interrupting that. And then doing some deep breathing is another one that can really just stop that reaction in its tracks and increase oxygen, introduce some relaxation, and enable us to really think and really be rational. Yeah. You say in the book that what happens when we get into that adrenalized state is you go into the no thinking zone. And I've become so cognizant of that in my life because I realize that once

you're into that place, there's nothing good that can happen. And never. I mean, I won't say never, but very, very rarely until one person can step out of that. And I think it's interesting. I've noticed in my own relationships with people and in watching people around me, it's interesting how quick sometimes we get there. And so it's almost like the conversation starts and it's, you know, have to take a step back almost immediately. But that pushing through just is so destructive, at least. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like

why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does

Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's gonna drop by. Mr. Brian Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really, No Really, sir.

Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really, No Really. Yeah, Really. No Really. Go to reallynoreally.com.

And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It has been in my life. Yes, and I think the more observant we become, the more we were tipped off earlier to that reaction, because I think everyone probably experiences it differently. I feel like it's,

it's almost like a head rush. It's like a buzzing in my head. And so I know that as soon as that, as soon as that's happening, I need to stop talking or doing what I'm doing. Exactly. And, and just politely excuse ourselves.

Yes, exactly. So you talk about something called repair moves in a relationship. What does that mean? of specifically romantic relationships, talk a lot about this term conflict intimacy. And basically, that's how you fight how you deal with disagreements, because that's really the one most powerful determining factor of whether relationships do continue and continue happily is if you can really deal with conflict in a positive way and in a productive way. So not avoiding it, but, you know, allowing for the conflict, engaging with it in a rational way and repair moves basically are statements that show that you're listening statements that show

that you're working towards some sort of resolution, you know, so it could be as simple as, I hear you, or I get that. Or could you explain that more? You know, I didn't, I don't quite understand, like, just, so it's moving towards connection and understanding and resolution, as opposed to shutting someone out, being defensive, etc. Yep. What did you call it? Conflict intimacy? Yes. We touched on one of them earlier that there were a lot of different approaches to forgiveness, but that it appeared that all of it boiled down to two key components. One was, you talked earlier

about the ability to grieve it, to feel it, and the other was letting go. What does that process look like? Or what do you mean by that letting go? Yeah, so someone said that forgiveness, in the end, is about giving up your attachment to a different past. I'm not sure the exact words, but it was something like that. So, oh, giving up the right to a different past. I'm not sure the exact words, but it was something like that. So, oh, giving up the right to a different past, because of course the past is what it is, right? And we can't, we can't change it. And so at a certain point in forgiveness and in order to forgive, you really have to relinquish that attachment to judging the past and trying to change it because you basically value your well-being and your future over that past and I mean I think that's what letting go is it's realizing that you can't you can't move forward when you're holding the tail of the past.

You know, I mean, you're not going to go anywhere. Reminds me of a phrase that sort of applies to this, which is, would you rather be right or would you rather be happy? Yes, that is exactly it. That's exactly right. And it's easy to say that, right? It's not so easy to actually get there and do it. But I think, you know, one thing that the people in my book share, they share a lot of things, but one thing along these lines is that they were committed. They were really, really committed

to forgiving for their own well-being and in a lot of cases for the well-being of other people and frankly of the world and so that commitment and that intention really held a lot of weight so what that means is that you know you're not going to get there in one day if we're talking about something big right a big loss or a big betrayal it's not going to happen overnight but if when you're feeling upset if when to happen overnight. But if when you're feeling upset, if when you're grieving, you know, if when you're observing yourself one more time, you know, wanting to rain this person's neck, you have in the back of your mind that bottom line commitment to letting go and moving forward for your sake, and for other people's sakes, you'll do it. Right. And I think that's what I was sort of referring to earlier when I said, once I really understood the value of forgiveness for myself, what it did for

me and how much I would harm myself when I didn't, that was when it changed me. It's not that I immediately forgave everybody instantly. It was that I knew that was what I want. That was where I wanted to end up with whatever the situation was. That was the place I wanted to end. Right. You mentioned it somewhere in the book. I think we get hung up on the idea of that's not fair. And that can really stand in the way of forgiveness. Yeah, I certainly do. I mean, I'm constantly dealing with, you know, some situation that I think isn't fair in the world and dealing with my, my opinions about that and my feelings about that and my reactions about that. Right. But ultimately, if I'm only focused on how something

isn't fair, that's not going to get me what I want. And so I think, I mean, what's really interesting to me now is that it's not only our individual practices being geared toward the goal of mutual forgiveness that makes a difference, but it's also our collective societal practices. where I spent time and where I did reporting on what the tools that they've used to drastically reduce fighting and drastically reduce suspensions in an inner city school in Baltimore that had a lot of fighting when they started. People don't always feel like forgiving each other or seeking forgiveness in that school. However, their daily habits collectively are geared towards that. And what that means is they happen to use a practice called circles, which means when there's a conflict in a classroom or there's a fight that is brewing, everyone involved is brought in to the restorative practices facilitator's office. And the restorative practices facilitator is this wonderful man named Brendan Lee, who's a former gang member.

And he then became a kindergarten teacher and then this facilitator at their school. He brings them into his office and they basically use a talking stick to take turns sharing his or her version of what happened in the conflict and ideas for what could resolve it. And, you know, like I said, it doesn't mean that they all feel like doing that or they all feel like just burying the hatchet and moving on, but those practices and habits really pull for that. Yeah, exactly. It's another version of a phrase we use a lot, which is sometimes you can't think your way into right action. You have to act your way into right thinking. Yeah, that's great. I like that. So one of the things I really enjoyed about the book, we're nearly at the end here, so I'll start wrapping up. But one of the things I really

enjoyed about the book was how much you took what you were learning and reflected it back on yourself in your own life. I really found a lot of that writing to be some of the most enjoyable parts of the book. So I think that was great the way that you did that. Thank you. I'm really glad because I went back and forth about including myself or not. And so I'm glad that that was valuable. I think it made a big difference in your willingness to be vulnerable with it. And I think you really took chances with it. And so it was, it was great. Well, thank you. And we'll wrap up with me reading a little bit out of the book near the very end. And then you can add any comments to it if you'd like. But I think it's a great summing up of the book and of really

the wolf parable in general. You say, gratitude and forgiveness, I realized, have a symbiotic relationship. They feed and strengthen each other. It seemed so simple, almost too simple, but there it was. The more you focus on the warm memories and appreciate them, the less power the painful ones have. And the more you look for what you like in people, the less you blame them for your own disappointments or failings. Yes. That is a really good sum up of the parable. I like the way you sort of tied forgiveness back to another practice that gets a lot of

attention these days, which is gratitude. But at the end, what we're really talking about here is very much the wolf parable. In any situation, there are multiple interpretations. And which one we choose to give our attention to is really determined so much of the quality of our life, like Azeem did. He chose to focus on what he could build out of the wreckage of what happened to his son versus what he wanted to destroy as part of that. And it's just such a powerful, powerful message. Thank you. I agree. And I think that point that it really is what we focus on is so powerful. And that means the choice of what to focus on from minute to minute to hour to hour to day to day. And that's what makes up our lives. Right. And what I love about the book and

the work that you do, though, is it says that's ultimately the point what you focus on is what matters, but it doesn't get into pretend like, oh, everything's fine. I mean, you like you talk about going through the emotions, feeling the pain is a big part of it. But then choosing what to do with that is is what you can do as you move through that process. Yes, definitely. Well, Megan, thanks so much for taking the time to come on the show. Like I said, I really enjoyed the book. We will have a link to the book and your website

and your TED Talk in our show notes. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much, Eric. It was really a pleasure to talk with you. Excellent. Well, take care. You too. Okay, bye. Bye.

You can learn more about Megan Feldman Betancourt and this podcast at oneufeed.net slash Megan.