The One You Feed - Mishka Shubaly

Episode Date: September 2, 2014

This week we talk to Mishka ShubalyOur guest today is author Mishka Shubalay. After receiving an MFA from Columbia University, Mishka promptly quit writing to play music. He lived out of a Toyota minivan for a year, touring nonstop, and has shared the stage with artists like The Strokes, The Yeah Yeah Yeahs and The Decemberists.His Kindle Singles for Amazon have all been bestsellers. He writes true stories about drink, drugs, disasters, desire, deception and their aftermath. The Long Run is Mishka’s mini-memoir and details his transformation from alcoholic drug abuser to sober ultrarunner. His latest Kindle single is called Of Mice and Me and details him finding an orphaned baby mouse and the life lessons it brought to him.Also at the end of the interview we have a pre-release of a song from Mishka’s forthcoming record. In This Interview Mishka and I Discuss...The One You Feed parable.Watching the wolves battle since he was a kid.Nihilism and self defeating behaviors.How he celebrated his 5 years of sobriety.The ebb and flow of life.Remembering and forgetting our life lessons.How running is his meditation and prayerDoing the hard thing and embracing the challenges remind him that he wants to be alive. How its harder to train for six weeks than to run 10 miles at once. That smaller changes can be more difficult to maintain.Changing the default posture of our mind.How his mantra went from Fuck It to Try Every Day.Success being built on a series of failures.Learning to recover from our mistakesExtending the benefit of doubt to ourselves.The negative voice of the bad wolf.How we won't recover from addiction unless it is the most important thing in the world.His fear of AA.How there are no magic bullets.His public promise to attend an AA meeting.How it's worth trying anything once, expect maybe crystal meth.Our communal desire for having a lot of pain over a long period of time versus a brief intense pain.How following our dreams is not always the right approach.Playing music for the love of it.How the only thing that makes us happy is happiness.How getting everything we want doesn't always make us happy.Posting a picture of the The Strokes guitar player's ass all across Manhattan.Mishka Shubaly LinksMishka Shubaly Homepage Misha Shubaly Amazon Author pageMishka Shubaly on TwitterOf Mice and MeThe Long RunBeat The Devil Some of our most popular interviews that you might also enjoy:Kino MacGregorStrand of OaksMike Scott of the WaterboysTodd Henry- author of Die EmptyRandy Scott HydeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Just because I'm recommending that other people shouldn't do stuff doesn't mean I don't do it all the time. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like, garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living.

This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you? We have the answer.

Go to reallyknowreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. The Really No Really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for joining us. Our guest today is author Mishka Shubali. After receiving an MFA from Columbia University, Mishka promptly quit writing to play music. He lived out of a Toyota minivan for a year, touring nonstop, and has shared the stage with artists such as The Strokes, The Yeah Yeah Yeahs, and The Decembrists. His Kindle singles for Amazon have all been bestsellers.

He writes true stories about drink, drugs, disasters, desire, deception, and their aftermath. The Long Run is Mishka's mini-memoir and details his transformation from alcoholic drug abuser to sober ultra-runner. His latest Kindle single is called Of Mice and Me and details him finding an orphaned baby mouse and the life lessons it brought to him. By the way, at the end of this interview, we have a pre-release of a song from Mishka's forthcoming record, so listen for that. Here's the interview. Hi, Mishka, welcome to the show. Thanks a lot for having me, man. So our podcast is based on the parable of two wolves, where a grandfather is talking with his grandson, and he says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and love,

and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like hatred and greed and fear. And the grandson stops and he thinks and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. Well, actually, the first time that I came across that parable is when I discovered your podcast a couple months ago. And it almost has too much significance, you know, for me personally and for my life and what I've been going through since I was a kid

and specifically in the last five years. One analogy that I heard early on when I was a big Elvis fan when I was a kid and he was one of a set of twins and his twin brother died at birth. And there's a folklore legend that if there are two twins and one of them dies, or if a set of twins is born, one is good and one is evil. And if one of the twins dies, then the remaining twin has the burden of being both good and evil.

remaining twin has the burden of being both good and evil. And yeah, so that, you know, speaks nicely to the, you know, to the wolf parable. And I've certainly noticed that duality in myself where, you know, I feel like from a very young age, there's been a side of me that's trying to destroy me. And then a side of me that's trying to destroy that side so I can so I can keep going. And, you know, specifically, drinking and a super nihilistic attitude. And, you know, I, daily, I catch myself, you know, doing self-defeating stuff and say, you know, I'd say, no, don't, don't do that to yourself. Don't put yourself through that. It's, it's not always an epic battle of good and evil, but some days it is an epic battle of good and evil, just to get out of

bed and go about your day, you know? Yep, exactly. So maybe I'll give the listeners just a quick overview of, I'll call your story that I'll do in 30 seconds, and then you can, we'll kind of build from there. But basically, you've come to fame to some degree by writing a series of Amazon singles at this point that detail different parts of your life. And a couple of the most famous ones have been about your recovery from alcoholism, how that took you into running, ultra running, and your most recent book is about your career in the music business. So, and I think you've been about five years sober now, is that correct? Yeah, end of May was my anniversary and

I celebrated my sobriety by going out and doing a 50 mile race, which is a brutal way to celebrate, but it seemed like it was the right thing to do to sort of recommit myself. but it seemed like it was the right thing to do to sort of recommit myself. Well, congratulations on five years. I heard you say about a year ago somewhere that you were less, maybe you wrote it, that you were less interested in running than you had been. Have you found that you're kind of back in the groove again? Yeah, like everything else in life, it ebbs and flows. Yeah, like everything else in life, it ebbs and flows. And one of the things I've learned, too, is that movies and TV would have us believe that there's always this central epiphany, and the character has this epiphany, and then they're able to forgive their parents, or they're able to recover from their drug addiction or whatever. And it's just this moment where the sun peeks through the clouds

and then they figure this thing out and then they're able to move forward happily with the rest of their life. That's totally not memetic of reality. The truth is that you learn how to forgive your parents and you learn how to forgive yourself and those kinds of things. And then you forget. And so daily, it's a process of remembering, like, no, I deserve to be alive. It's, you know, it's okay for me to have a sandwich. I deserve this.

It's okay. Are you sure about that sandwich? Well, not every day. There are some days where I forget. So I find that I have to keep reminding myself. And running is one of those things that, you know, I think for me, Running is one of those things that, you know, I think for me, it plays a role in my life that maybe prayer plays in the life of someone who's, you know, who believes in God or meditation for some people in that it's, man, I hate running. I hate running.

All my friends say, oh, I can't believe you run these 50-mile races. You're crazy. You must love running. No, I hate it more than anybody. The hardest thing that I've ever done out of all the stupid races I've done is putting on my running shoes and getting out the door. That is the hardest part. And my favorite part of running is when the run is over and I get to stop. But going out there and doing that hard thing that I know is good for me, that's good for my brain, and that's good for my body, and it's good for my overall sense of

momentum. It's sort of, you know, it's like telling your wife that you love her. It's something that you do to continue a positive relationship and to keep things moving in the right direction. And by going out there and doing that hard thing and embracing that challenge, I remind myself that I do care about my life. I am finally glad to be alive. I want to do stuff. I want to do things. I want to engage with the world. I want to talk to people. I want to make it all matter. I find myself asking myself rhetorically or out loud often, like, haven't I learned this like 30 times? Like, why do I have to exercise is a great example. I know it makes me feel better. I know it's good for me, all those things. And yet of why honestly we started this podcast was simply it was a way every week to sort of remember that you know life that life is positive and that you know happiness is you know comes from the inside etc etc and it seems like the smaller and the less dramatic the changes the harder it is make. I mean, I really think that most people could walk outside and even if they're not in shape, you know, if they just made up a relic effort,

they could go out and run 10 miles once. And that seems like a big deal, but it's not, you know, and what would be harder would be to, you know, to train for six weeks to run a half marathon or something like that. But the most impressive thing would be to change your posture, to learn to stand up straight and sit straight. I mean, I have terrible posture. I always have. That's the hardest thing to change, man. It's not hard to learn how to run 50 miles because you can go out and run,

and then when the running's over, it's over, and you eat and you rest and you recover. But to change your posture, it has to be sort of every second of every day. You have to make that change, and you have to keep it happening. And that is so hard. I agree. I think that that is a great analogy, particularly that going out and running 10 miles is a short-term painful thing. Learning to train to do it every day over and over takes a lot more effort. And the posture example is more akin to what it's like to try and change your mindset or the way you view the world, because that never turns off. Exactly. And, you know, and I guess that's the analogy of what I've

been trying to do for the last five years is change the default posture of my mind, change the default setting. You know, I mean, and examples are everywhere. You know, when we were, you know, linking up for this interview, my Skype name is still Mishka Sucks, which is what it was when I set the account up, you know, like 10 years ago. And that was, that was just an accurate reflection of how I felt. And I feel I've come far enough at this point that I should change it to, you know, Mishka doesn't suck all the time. Right. Let me read some of your own stuff to you here for a second, because you wrote some things around your five-year sober anniversary that I think are really profound for kind of what we're talking about. And you say, this is how I understand my illness. There are two people inside of me. One guy values his friends and family still as a dreamer to is interested in the world and wants to do stuff to engage, to participate, to express, to create. The other guy wants to destroy the first guy. He wants a drink before even getting out of bed

because fuck it and fuck you and fuck the world. Yeah. I remember when I was 17, a, uh, an acquaintance picked me up while I was hitchhiking and, you know, she said, Oh, you know,

you seem to be doing better this year than you were last year. Um, we were worried you were going to kill yourself, except that you thought that suicide was pointless. And, and it made me laugh that my nihilism was so deep at that point that I even thought suicide, the most nihilistic gesture was stupid and pointless. And that it was, it was just my nihilism was so severe that it had saved me from myself.

So I, yeah, I mean, I really got, you know, I got dark early and often and stayed dark for a long time. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer.

We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you. And the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Brian Cranston is with us tonight. How are you, too? Hello, my friend.

Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really No Really. Oh, yeah. Really.

No Really. Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason Bobblehead. It's called Really, No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So what sort of things besides running do you do to try and help make that posture change in your mind? My mantra before I stopped drinking was, fuck it. And my mantra when I stopped drinking was, try every day. try every day and not just to try not to drink or, you know, to try to remove something or to not do something, but try to do something, try to make an effort. And I really learned

that success isn't built on a series of successes. Success is built on a series of failures. series of successes. Success is built on a series of failures. You try something and you fail, and you try something and you fail, and you try something and you fail, and then you try something and then you break through. And it's getting back up when you've been knocked down. That's what makes a champion and not never getting knocked down. You have to learn how to recover from your mistakes. And I don't think I'd ever, I'd ever learned that. That resiliency seems to be a pretty, pretty critical thing. And also one that that can be challenging to get. Sometimes we have to learn to build that, that resiliency. self-sabotaging. I was really sort of self-torturing where, you know, I would knock over a glass of water and instead of saying, oh, I knocked over a glass of water, I better, you know, grab a, oh, I'm clumsy. I should grab a rag and wipe that up. Part of my brain would say,

look at you. You're such a failure. You can't even drink a glass of water. This is proof that you'll never do anything good. You should just kill yourself now. And it's hard to do anything when your brain is on you like that, like a rabid dog just sinking its teeth into your leg and never letting go. sinking its teeth into your leg and never letting go. And so I had to, I had to extend a little bit of, I had to extend the benefit of the doubt to myself. And, you know, if a friend knocked over a glass of water,

I would just be like, ah, you knocked over a glass of water. And it wouldn't be such a huge deal. But when I did it, it was indicative of a larger illness. It was an omen, you knocked over a glass of water. And it wouldn't be such a huge deal. But when I did it, it was indicative of a larger illness. It was an omen, you know. And I just had to stop doing that to myself. I had an experience like that today. I don't know what I did. I think I left my lunch at home. And the thought that ran through my head was, you're such an asshole.

I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's settle down here for a second. But that is a very habitual reaction. And I often think that the, you know, you talk about the bad wolf, that the bad wolf for a lot of us is just that voice that goes on in our head all the time. Because it's, mine is by nature, if I'm not sort of training it, Because mine is by nature, if I'm not sort of training it, that's where it goes. It goes to the worst possible interpretation of a situation. You know, the situation is blown way out of proportion.

It's the worst thing that could happen. And when I tune in and listen to that inner chatter, sometimes I'm like, what? No wonder, you know, no wonder that I had challenges at different points in life if that was what I believed if I believed that voice because I did for a long time I think now I've got enough distance to sort of look at it and and a lot of times look at it and realize it's it's just it's just a voice it's it's not in it's not the truth. One of the positive things I've found about being an alcoholic is that when you have that super strong bad wolf, What's tough is that some days it's an exhausting struggle where you spend the bulk of your energy trying to negate that destructive voice. But I found, too, that in order to defeat it, you don't make that bad voice weaker. You make the good wolf stronger. You know, so I've found that by having to deal with

my vicious brain day in and day out, that when there's a difficult situation, if, you know, if somebody gets mugged or there's a fight on the street or there's a car accident or something like that, that now I'm the guy who can go through that process, who can weather that experience and get through that okay, because I'm sort of, my good wolf is always getting a workout. You know what I mean? I'm used to having to overcome negativity. You've written about it a little bit. I've heard you talk about it with Rich that you got sober basically on your own. You didn't go into any of the 12-step recovery programs. And I think when you and

I were exchanging emails, it's been several months ago, you alluded to potentially looking into that. I guess I'm curious about where your thoughts are five years into the process on continuing to do it yourself versus looking for support? And I think that's a broader question than just 12-step meetings. It's about, you know, looking for help and asking for help in general. You know, I don't regret how I got sober because I have a sense of pride now that I did it on my own and I did it, um, I did it on my own terms and that I really own my sobriety. And I also, I had,

you know, I had sort of a concrete goal that I didn't want to go to AA because, and I didn't want to be a humble, sober alcoholic. Because I've been a humble alcoholic. And I just lived in a state of apology. And I wanted to stand on my own two feet and be an actual human being and have a sense of self. And if someone attacked me to be able to say, no, you're wrong. And stand up for myself, and that I wouldn't just have to always issue this blanket apology that, well,

I can't remember last night, so you must be right. And, you know, I even, you know, I published an article that, you know, sort of questioned the merits of AA and, you know, and sort of, you know, talked about my experience. Ironically, now, five years in, when people write to me and say, I don't want to go to AA, how did you do it? You know, show me the way. Nine times out of 10, I write back to them and I say, go to AA. Because I think the reason that my story is remarkable is because most people who try to quit on their own fail. And, you know, the way I presented it to a friend who approached me

recently about getting sober is, you know, he said, I'll do anything to quit drinking. And I said, you know, you know, he said, you know, but I don't want to go to AA. And I was like, well, there's your test then. Go to AA. And if you really want to quit drinking that much, if it's the most, you won't succeed quitting drinking unless it's the most important thing to you in the world. If it's the most important thing to you in the world, you'll get over whatever fear or disdain you have for AA and you'll go to Muse.

He went, he loved it. It's a big part of his life now. It's a big part of how he got sober and I'm really proud of him. I need to apply that to myself. AA scares me. It's funny, whenever I do a podcast like this one or, you know, or anything that has any dimension of self-help to it, you know, my old friends always look at me like I told them I'm going to a swingers club or something like that. That's kind of what it's like here in our recording studio. I'm sober, but I'm still a really messed up dude.

I still have tons of problems. I win most days, but it's definitely 51-49. And I feel like I squeak by a lot of the time, but I'm honest about that. And hopefully that's, that's what makes me a voice worth listening to is that, you know, I feel like the only magic bullet is the knowledge that there is no magic bullet. And sometimes you just have to do things the hard way because that's the only way they're going to get done. I agree there's no magic bullet.

Do you worry that if you did go to AA or you increased the ratio instead of 51-49 to 70-30, that you wouldn't be a voice worth listening to? Because I'm sort of reinterpreting what you just said, but I'm curious what you think. It's funny. A couple of weeks ago, I had an evening where I didn't have anything planned, and I was like, fuck it. I'm just going to do it. I have to do it the same way that I go for a run.

I don't think about what I'm going to do. I just put my shoes on and get out the door. And I was like, I'm going to look out where an AA meeting is. I know there's one happening nearby this evening. I'll go find one. I'm going to go. I'm just going to crack the seal. I'm just going to jump in and do it. And I was on my way there and I was two blocks away and a buddy texted, he texted me and he said, Hey, you know, my band has a gig in two days. My bass isn't playing right. Can you fix it? Are you around tonight? I was like, yes, I know, my band has a gig in two days. My bass isn't playing right. Can you fix it? Are you around tonight?

I was like, yes, I can totally do it. It got me off the hook and, you know, made it that I didn't have to go. I'm going to go. I'll make a public promise that I'm going to go just on the grounds that I, I said, I've always said everything and anything is worth trying once. When I first said it, I think I was talking about crystal meth,

but there's no reason it shouldn't apply to AA as well. I think one of the hangups that I have about it is that when I started getting sober in the first, that first six months to 18 months, a lot of people sort of came to me like, you figured it out. You've gotten your life together. I need you to help me. And I'm not afraid of helping people. I've been helping people since I was a kid. But I know that when I was drinking, help didn't help me at all. There were a lot of people who would pay my parking ticket or help me get my car back after

it got towed or buy me lunch or buy me dinner or I think one friend got me four jobs in a row and I got fired from all of them one after another I think we've got two two over here but not four my coast and I've done that dance before and all it did was it made it easier for me to keep drinking and keep living the life that I was living. And when I finally quit, it's not because my friends were there. It's because they started not returning my calls or not hanging out with me because they were afraid and what was like, they couldn't, they just couldn't bear witness to what was happening or they were afraid I was going to die and they didn't want it to happen on their watch or they just couldn't stand to be

around me anymore. And when I, when I, and my friends are pretty hardcore and to alienate people like that and be alone, I was like, wow, I really have to pull it together now. Um, so it was the absence of help that helped me when there was nobody there man that was some terrifying shit you could argue that your friends did help you

by leaving you that was sometimes that's the best way to help somebody is like nope you can't come here anymore you're done exactly and that's the hardest kind of help to provide to somebody. Oh, I agree. I mean, I talk to parents sometimes who've got a child, you know, who's out there drinking or drugging. And my advice is sometimes, no, you can't give

them money. No, you shouldn't let them come home. And by the way, I recognize that may probably the hardest thing you'll ever have to do because it goes against every instinct inside you. And if you decide to do it, there's no judgment. But the best thing for them is probably to stop helping them with things like traffic tickets and jail and money. We have a communal illness in America. Maybe's global, in that we would much rather have a lot of pain spread out over a long period of time than a brief amount of pain, you know, and then nothing, you know, because that's the thing is, if, you know, if your kid is smoking crack or whatever, and you change your phone number, change the locks,

shut them out entirely. Um, they may have a really miserable couple of months and then get their shit together. Or if you keep them, if you keep paying their cell phone bill, keep bailing them out of jail and stuff like that, they can do that for 10 or 20 years. And, If you keep paying your cell phone bill, keep bailing them out of jail and stuff like that,

they can do that for 10 or 20 years. You need to take the pain up front. Just tear the bandage off, man, and just get it over with. I remember I was working this construction gig, and I approached my boss one Friday when I was getting paid. And I said to him, I was like, Vinny, I don't do any work for you here. I just procrastinate and screw around. I don't do anything. I don't get anything done.

And all you do is make me miserable. You just torture me and torment me all week. You won't fire me. You keep paying me so I'll stay here. But like, I don't do anything for you and you just make me miserable. Can we just compress that? And I'll just come in here like once on Friday afternoon and you can kick me in the balls as hard as you can. And then I'll just collect my check and go home.

And he didn't say anything. And I was like, are you going to fire me now? And he was like, no, no, no, actually I'm considering your proposal. Yeah, you got me on that one. I am absolutely guilty of the, I'll just take my pain spread out over a long period as long as it's mild enough versus the really acute pain. I do that sometimes. I'm fully aware of that one.

It's a bad road. Listen, man, I do that all the time, too. Just because I'm recommending that other people shouldn't do stuff doesn't mean I don't do it all the time. Advice is easy to give and hard to take. And, you know, I think if I, I think if I took all the advice, I think I give good advice. I think if I took all the advice that I gave, I'd probably be a much happier guy. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast,

our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you

and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Brian Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really No Really, sir. Bless you all.

Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really No Really. Yeah, really. No really. Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason Bobblehead. It's called Really, No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. So let's transition a little bit and talk about your latest book, Beat the Devil, which is sort of a recounting of your, it's sort of a recounting of your alcoholism as well as your music career and wrestling with the idea of when is enough enough, not just with alcohol, but with pursuing something that doesn't appear to be working. Would you say that's a reasonable summary of the book? Yeah, definitely. You know, people thoughtlessly parrot this really destructive phrase, follow your dreams. And I did. And it just about killed me, man.

Not every dream is a good dream, remember? My dream was to, you know, was to shred on guitar, you know, in front of, you know, thousands of adoring fans. And then as I got older and found out that I would never be a shredder, and I started listening to punk rock, and then my dream just became to be like Johnny Thunders and just die in a hotel room with a hooker with a bottle in one hand and a guitar in the other, something like that. And I almost got my wish.

And I felt the whole time that I was struggling to make it as a musician and just fighting so hard that I was butting my head against the world or public opinion or, you know, possibly there was some vast conspiracy to keep me down or, you know, people just didn't recognize the genius of my songwriting or whatever. And then when I got sober, I realized that there had been a conspiracy, but it was just one person who was trying to keep me down. And that was me. I blew so many opportunities and, and, you know, just out of, uh, arrogance and self-loathing and, and just getting too drunk. And it was, it was incredibly depressing and incredibly sad to let go of that dream and to sort of quit the band and say, all right, we're never going to make it. This isn't going to happen.

And also incredibly liberating. You know, it's like when you have a beloved family pet that's three legs or, you know, three legs don't work. You know, the dog is blind. It can't hear. Legs are, you know, three legs don't work. You know, the dog is blind. It can't hear. It like, you know,

he's all over the house and it lays in a pile in the corner. And like, you love that dog and you remember it when it was a puppy and you had all these great times together. And so, you know, you can't bring yourself to put it down. And then finally one day the dog dies and you're terribly sad

because you loved old Lucy or whatever her name was. But at the same time, you're like, oh my God old Lucy or whatever her name was. But at the same time, you're like, oh, my God, thank God the dog finally died because now I don't have to put myself through this anymore. We had a guest on the show named Joe Astrike who wrote a book called Hitless Wonder, which is a really good – it's called My Life in Minor League Rock and Roll. And it's a great story about them, and they're from Columbus, and getting signed, but the ultimate question is, you know, they still play music today, they're, you know, they're over 40, and his question is, I don't know whether to consider that really brave and heroic or really pathetic. My answer is D, all of the above. Yep. I, uh, ironically, um, and then

when I told, uh, Rich Roll this, I, you know, he just, he cracked up and I thought he was going to throttle me. Um, ironically after, you know, I, I quit Fresh Kills and effectively broke up the band. Um, you know, in Beat the Devil, I talked a lot of trash about James, an old friend of mine who, you know, we'd been in a band together. And now I'm playing in a band with Zach, the singer from Fresh Kills, and James, the old friend I hadn't spoken to for eight years, who I talked a lot of trash about. Because he read Beat the Devil and he was like, yeah, we should work this out. Um, you know, I don't, I don't really disagree with anything you said. And I think a lot of, you know, I think mostly you let me off easy, but you know, we were such good friends for such a long time. Like let's figure this out.

And, you know, so now we're, you know, a bunch of guys approaching 40, um, getting together once a week to, you know, so now we're, you know, a bunch of guys approaching 40, getting together once a week to, you know, get loud in the practice space. And it's awesome. It's so great. I love it. I really, you know, I'm like, all right, when's the next practice? You know, I'm excited about stuff. And the reason is that there's nothing at stake now.

Right. I'm not holding that activity hostage to a dream. It doesn't, I'm not counting on it to change my life, to transform me in any way. It's my bowling league. Chris and I both play music, him probably a little bit more actively or certainly more actively than me, but I've battled over the years once, and I don't know how old I was when I finally realized, like, okay, I'm not going to make a living playing rock music. I was probably 25 when I realized that, which is when I got sober the first time.

But I've had to battle consistently since then, picking up a guitar, playing it, writing songs, recording them, loving the whole process, and not tying it to some thing that's more than that. Some, you know, like you said, an expectation that it's going to save me, or a feeling that I can turn into work, like I got to work harder on this. And I'm like, can I just enjoy this for the wonderful thing that it is? And that, that can be challenging. But when I do it, it's, it really is one of the best parts of my life. One of the things that I constantly

have to remind myself is that the only thing that will make you happy is happiness. Getting a new guitar isn't going to make you happy. Running 50 miles isn't going to make you happy. Running 50 miles isn't going to make you happy. Getting a Porsche isn't going to make you happy. If you can be happy while you're playing the guitar, then you'll just be happy. You don't have to go out and spend all that money or do all that crazy stuff or count on a thing or an experience to make you happy. Just enjoy the pursuit of it. Enjoy the, enjoy the moment, enjoy playing your guitar, enjoy driving, enjoy whatever, enjoy training, enjoy running, enjoy whatever, you know, and don't, don't count on, um,

that thing to, to be a catapult that's going to catapult you into happiness. Just let it happen, man. Just let it happen. It's so hard and it's so easy. Yeah, I was going to say, speaking of advice that's easier to give than follow, but I agree 100%. I think that's one of the conclusions that I'm finally, you know, maybe maturity or what, starting to get is I've

stopped thinking, oh, it's that thing that's going to make me happier. It's that thing. It doesn't mean I'm always happy. I haven't figured that part out yet, but at least I'm less deceived about what I think will be. And I can direct my energy in a way that's more likely to result in happiness than chasing the things that I think will bring me happiness that simply don't. And I, and I think some of it is I've gotten a lot of the things I wanted and it didn't work. You know, it, it, I got it expected. Oh, when I got that thing and sure enough, it was all of a sudden the, the target was further down the road, you know, 10 minutes later. Dude, I, I, I have a perfect life. I, you know, I'm 37 years old. I still live like I'm a teenager.

I'm 37 years old I still live like I'm a teenager I have about 100 guitars in my room I can play a different one every day for a couple of months I haven't had a real job in a couple of years I rarely like entire like a three day span will go by

where I never put on pants because I'm just at home writing, working on guitars Are we talking no pants at all like underwear and no pants on top of that or full nudity? Just like boxer shorts. All right. We'll keep it PG for your listeners. And, you know, my life is awesome.

I play rock music with my friends. I go running. You know, life is amazing. And a lot of the time, I'm miserable. You know why I'm miserable? I still hate myself. I haven't figured that part out. You know, I had a dream the other night, and it didn't even register for a day and a half how messed up this dream was but in my in the dream i had like cheated with with like three

different friends wives or something like that so i i was i knew that i had destroyed like three different relationships so i took a white garbage bag and wrote on it in a big black sharpie sorry and then put it over my head and shot myself in the head in my dreams that's messed up yeah that that that's an incredibly dark incredibly nihilistic dream and it didn't even register to me how screwed up that was for a day and a half and then i was like oh man i still have a lot of stuff to work out. But it's, you know, it's, it goes back to the, everything we've been saying that it's, you know, it's not like goodwill hunting where you just, one day you learn to forgive yourself and then you drive off to

California and your life is peachy and you get mini driver and you know, everything's great. It's a, it has to you have to do it every day man you have to forgive yourself every day yep you you absolutely do so we're getting near the end of our time here but i was wondering you've got a great story you've got a lot of great stories in the latest book but maybe uh as a as a little teaser for for the listeners can you you tell a story about uh a band that got really famous early in the 2000s, came out of the New York City area, and playing with them and a couple things that happened afterwards?

Can you share a little of that story? Oh, man. I'm going to be an old man in an old folks' home telling this story. Yeah, I'll try and get through it as quickly as I can. Cause I know we have limited time, but, um, in maybe 99, uh, my old band come on, was playing a lot and there was a lot, a lot of hype around us. And, uh, we used to play the same party at Dawn Hills. And, uh, you know, then one night the promoter wanted to add this other band um named the strokes and uh and we were like well whatever you know somebody told us that there were going to be a

lot of models there because they had some connection to models so we were like well in that case let you know let's let them do it so they played the show and then, and, and they were good. They're a good band. And then after we played, somebody came over and said, Hey, you guys might want to go and check on your gear. There's, you know, something, something, some kids are fooling around behind the curtain. So our drummer's girlfriend who had just gotten one of the brand new digital cameras, which was like, you know, space age technology at that time. She went and stuck her hand behind the curtain and just squeezed the pitcher and then came back to the bar. And a moment later, the pitcher came up

and she just doubled overlapping because it was the naked pimply butt of the Strokes guitar player pumping up and down between the legs of some unfortunate girl. So the next show we had was with the Strokes at another club. So we, you know, considerate gentlemen that we were, we used that picture on the flyer. You know, consider it gentlemen that we were, we used that picture on the flyer, but we, uh, we, we, we put a, uh, like a red tint on it so that it, um, the guitar player came up to, uh, our singer and was like, yo, it's not cool. You guys use my ass on your flyer. And, you know, we just sort of laughed. And then he was like, yo, it's really not cool.

You use my ass on your flyer. And, you know, our singer was the smallest guy in our band and I, and I was the biggest guy in our band. So I stood up, and I was like, the next time I use your ass is going to be when I put my foot up it. It was a joke, dude. You got laid. It's funny. You're not going to fight our singer. Sit down.

So I guess I showed him, right? I guess we had the last laugh, right? They're terribly famous now. And I live in the same ramshackle've, you know, you've been in bands for years, you've always hated hanging up flyers, but that day, there was a, you couldn't wait to get out there and hang them everywhere. It was a special flyer. It was a special flyer. Well, this has been a great conversation. I feel like we could do it. We could do it all night, but we try and keep the show to a certain, certain length. So I think we're going to wrap up. Is there anything you want to add on the topic of the wolves or anything else you want to add in general before we wrap up?

We'll certainly put links on our show notes out to all of your stuff on Amazon, and I would highly recommend it. They're all really – it has that – favorite kind of writing. I've talked on the show before is stuff that is really sometimes in the same page. It's both really funny and really poignant and you have the ability to do both those things. So you definitely listeners should check out your stuff. Um, beyond that, is there anything else you want to add before we wrap up? I don't know. Uh, just be good to yourself to yourself and try every day. When you get knocked down, get back up. That's fundamental stuff, man. Well, that's as good a way to wrap up as I can think of. So Mishka, thanks so much for joining us on the show. We really enjoyed having you.

I'm always happy when Chris is laughing. That always means it's been a good interview. So thanks so much. Awesome. Thank you so much for having me. All right. Talk to you soon. Bye. Take care.

You can learn more about Mishka Shubali and this podcast at oneufeed.net slash Mishka. Well, you sure got a big mouth And you know how to use it For screaming and howling And swearing and sobbing and boozing But lay down your weapons, we're ready to give in to your demands The getaway cars packed with cocaine and whiskey are better tinkered Ski a battered tin can Happiness is as dull as it seems And the company loves misery

You'd be happier being unhappy like me Cause I'll be cutting my milk chocolate heart out just for you The girl with the New Jersey Valentine's Day orphan lose Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, Well, I always do the right thing When I've run out of wrong things to do But God, everybody's made a few mistakes Everybody's buried a body or two or three You said with your hatred

and my hangovers that we'd bring the world to its knees I'll pull my head out of the toilet long enough to say that I disagree Me with my black market net And you with your tremors and heads Who's gonna look after the kids?

Just gonna look after the kids Cause I'll be cutting my milk chocolate heart out just for you The girl with the New Jersey Valentine's Day orphan blues Cause I'll be cutting my milk chocolate heart out Just for you The girl with the new jersey Valentine's Day orphan blues you