The One You Feed - Monk Yunrou

Starting point is 00:00:00 If we didn't believe that we were somehow more important, that we were not so special in this whole natural world, our whole world would look different. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like, garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit.

Starting point is 00:00:44 But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction. How they feed their good wolf. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like

Starting point is 00:01:21 why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to really know really.com and register to win $500 a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition sign Jason bobblehead. The really know really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for joining us. Our guest this week is Taoist monk Yun Rou, formerly known as Arthur Rosenfeld. He's an author, activist, and a 35-year master of Taoist arts. Yun Rou was born in America and ordained a monk at the Puryang Temple in Guangzhou, China. Combining his spiritual focus with a Yale literary education, he's an author on the cultural, social, and spiritual

Starting point is 00:02:04 dimensions of Eastern thinking for the Western world. And here's the interview with Yun Rho. Hi, Yun Rho. Welcome to the show. So happy to be with you. I'm excited to get you on because one of my favorite books of all time... Oh, hang on a second. We got a dog making noise. Well, when my turtles start breaking wind in the background, I won't feel so bad. I'm excited to talk to you because one of my favorite books of all time is the Tao Te Ching, but I've never really had a chance to learn a whole lot more about Taoism or talk to anybody

Starting point is 00:02:41 who was a Taoist. So I am excited to get into that book a little bit and some of your other philosophies. That'd be great. It's one of my favorite books to talk about even though every word we say is not the Tao. That's right, that's right. But let's start like we always do with the parable. There's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson. He says, in life there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and he thinks about it for a second and he looks at his grandfather

Starting point is 00:03:16 and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in your work. And also, what are some of the things that you do in your own life to feed your good wolf? So I should start by saying that I love the bad wolf. And I love the bad wolf because I love the dual, non-dual nature of everything. And as a Taoist, I tend to see things in terms of binary opposites harmoniously interacting. And we want to make them harmoniously interact, but sometimes disharmoniously interacting in order to define

Starting point is 00:04:06 each other and also the cycles of life. And without those cycles, we would have much less to appreciate and experience. And without that bad wolf, there would be no good wolf. Right. So without, you know, our cloudy days, we don't appreciate the sunny ones. And by the way, there's, I think, an important distinction between appreciating and experiencing. So I wouldn't say, for example, that someone who has never known heartbreak or disease or challenge is someone who doesn't experience joy or pleasure or satisfaction in life. But I might argue, I think cogently, that the appreciation of that experience

Starting point is 00:04:55 would be greatly diminished without something to compare it to. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. So, I mean, one of the lovely things about bringing traditional Taoist thinking into our high-tech quantum world these days is to see how very often in terms of science, basic science, tech, world exploration, universal exploration of things that have been expressed very clearly, if not in the same language, for thousands of years in Taoist texts and the Taoist canon. So, you know, to me, it's not so much that you want to make a habit of feeding one wolf to the exclusion of the other. It might be that in one circumstance in your life, you want to starve the good wolf. And in another, you want to starve the bad wolf.

Starting point is 00:06:15 And in many others, you want to feed one a little bit more than you feed the other. You want to play favorites. You want to be conscious and active in this process of feeding. Because what you see and experience and understand in the cycles and changes in your daily life ought to be cuing you to what you're doing with your kibble. So would you give your summary of what Taoism is? This actually is a far more challenging question than you may know. You may know how challenging it is, and you just did it to make me squirm. But you may also not realize that it is to some extent a debated issue. In a broad way, Taoism is a cultural and social phenomenon.

Starting point is 00:07:03 is a cultural and social phenomenon. And it is inextricably intertwined in traditional Chinese culture. And it is born of life in China, the bitter life of the people in early China, the flooding of rivers, the conquests, the famines, the droughts, the difficulties, the invasions, the constant pushback against the people who, nomads on horseback who ringed China for millennia and created a certain nucleation of culture in that enormous piece of land. And without some understanding of the history of China and how things developed there, I would submit that a deep comprehension of Taoist thought is not possible. Now, you know, it's funny because I have two Taoist masters, and one of them is my martial arts master and another one is my abbot.

Starting point is 00:08:07 And we could talk, if it's relevant, we can talk more detail about that later. But, you know, they both always tell me that, you know, the ideas of Taoism, of harmony, of balance, they don't really depend on even calling it Taoism. It doesn't matter whether you know anything about China or you know anything. And although they say that, and I bow to them and respect them greatly and love them both very much, I have to say that on this score, I don't fully agree. And I think that the reason that they think that is that they are Chinese and their whole worldview is so colored by being Chinese that they may not is that they are Chinese and their whole worldview is so colored by being Chinese that they may not see that from the same point of view as we do. So let's say it

Starting point is 00:08:52 this way. Taoism is a way of looking at nature. It is a way of understanding natural forces and natural phenomena and a way of integrating what you see and feel, smell, taste, and hear so that you can live a healthier, more compassionate, humbler, and more frugal life. How's that? and more frugal life. How's that? That is a great start. Most of my exposure to Eastern, you know, philosophy or religion has largely been through, you know, various schools of Buddhism. But like I said, I've always loved the Tao Te Ching. But what does Taoist meditation look like? Is that something you practice? And if so, what is that? How do you do that? How is that different or similar maybe to some of the other meditation styles out there? is that you may see Taoists standing or walking as opposed to sitting or lying down, which is not to say that Taoist meditation can't also be conducted prone or in a seat,

Starting point is 00:10:14 but we prefer to stand or walk if possible. And that is because there's a connection in Taoism, which I think is really quite different from Buddhist meditation. And I've studied some Buddhist meditation. In fact, one of my twin Taoist lineages is a version of Taoism, which is sort of all-encompassing. It's called Longman Pai. It's also known as complete truth, is the sort of overarching idea of it. And this complete truth sect, if you will, includes some Buddhist and some Confucian ideas. So there's some bleed over. But a core thing that I want to get to is that in Taoist meditation, the notion is that in order to awaken the mind, in order to achieve what we would term enlightenment, we don't have that exact phrase, but what we might call it, enlightenment in the West, to open the mind, to awaken the mind. In order to do that, we have to do a lot for the body, because it is the body that supports the process of enlightenment. In other words, you can't have the strength and clarity of mind that you need without having a strong and healthy body. So for example, something like Zazen sitting in Zen, where you damage your knees and hurt your

Starting point is 00:11:55 back, and you use the strength of your mind to force your body into an uncomfortable position and ask it to stay there for a long period and then have to have a knee replacement later or back surgery. But you can point to how strong your mind is at triumph over the flesh. That sort of Descartesian dualism about mind-body is not present in Taoist thinking. In fact, we find it difficult to understand why anyone would want to do that. So we want to nurture the body in order to help the mind. And now back to the rest of the interview with Yun Rho. In addition to being a Taoist monk and a prolific author, you are also, I don't know what the quite the right term is, but I'll say a Tai Chi master.

Starting point is 00:13:05 You teach a lot of Tai Chi, which I think is a form of Taoist meditation. Is that accurate? It is somewhat accurate. It's not exactly a form of Taoist meditation, although Tai Chi practice does include specific meditations that are by definition Taoist, since Taoism is the overarching idea. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you

Starting point is 00:13:42 and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Bryan Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park.

Starting point is 00:13:57 Wayne Knight, welcome to Really, No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really? No, really. Yeah, really. No, really. Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really? No, really. And you can find it on the iHeartRadio app on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Starting point is 00:14:26 Maybe put a different way, I'm not aware of any system of movement anywhere in any tradition. There may be one, but I'm not aware of it. Anywhere in the world, from any period of history, that is more intimately interdigitated with a system of philosophy and thought than Tai Chi is with Taoism. They are inextricable. So the practice of Tai Chi is one of the Taoist practices that I engage. It's my favorite one. It's the one I probably spend the most time at. age. It's my favorite one. It's the one I probably spend the most time at. But it's importance to me personally and to my students because I run what I call a martial arts, rather a philosophy school

Starting point is 00:15:17 with a major in martial arts, rather than a martial arts school that pays lip service to philosophy. The most important part of it is as a Taoist practice. So whether we are doing brush painting or landscape painting or calligraphy or playing a musical instrument or writing or standing in meditation or practicing with a seven-foot sword, all these things fall under the umbrella in my own life, practice and teaching of Taoist practice. Okay, here will be a geeky question. Do you have a favorite translation of the Tao Te Ching? Because I have one and I'm curious if they are similar, or what you think

Starting point is 00:15:57 of the one that I really like. I could almost reach out and touch from where I'm sitting, 66 translations. Wow. All right. So mine is the Stephen Mitchell translation. Right. That was a pretty good guess. I guessed it might be. And I think it's good. You know, I like Mitchell's writing style. I like the poetry of his prose. So from an aesthetic point of view, I like that version too. But it's not that alone, because I'm a fan of the science fiction and fantasy writer Ursula Le Guin, who also did a translation which was based on somebody else's translation. I don't believe that she reads Chinese, but I don't care for that one, as much as I like her other writings. I didn't care for that one. And I mentioned that in connection with Mitchell, because I think Mitchell has some grasp of what's going on and has a point of view, which I respect. You know, I have to say that if you had asked me this, I've been involved in this quite some

Starting point is 00:17:00 years now. And if you had asked me this five years ago or 10 years ago or 15 years ago, I might have been super eager to give you a list and say, hey, these are the ones, right? Read these. And what I've come to over time and with some thousands of hours of practice and meditation about these things is that it's such, we are so far from really understanding what the context of that book was, who wrote it, what its purpose was, and what it might have sounded like in the language of the day. My guess, I can tell you what I guess. I can tell you what I surmise about that book's origins. Before I go there, I will tell you that I think for most people, Guy Leakley's version, L-E-E-K-L-E-Y, is probably a great place to start.

Starting point is 00:18:01 It's a wonderful edition. Mitchell's is good. Jonathan Starr has got a good one. There are, and you know, we can maybe email and you can put up, if you wish, a list of some others I like. But let me go back to the sort of the point about the whole book.

Starting point is 00:18:23 Whether or not the putative author of the Tao Te Ching was a real historical personage is an open question, as indeed is the historicity of a lot of other things that people say about that book. I choose, because I have a romantic heart, to believe that Lao Tzu was a real person. But intellectually, I doubt it. that is going to be released tomorrow, is predicated on the decision that I was just going to embody him and envision him and indeed tell a love story about him as a sage who is in search of a soulmate and the difficulties of being such an enlightened personage and finding somebody with whom you can have that kind of connection. But I think that historically, probably, he was a creation of a coffee clutch of guys who were responding to the Confucian, draconian, highly regimented and ordered society of China at that time. So maybe you could think of it this

Starting point is 00:19:48 way. If you believe that Jesus Christ, for example, or Moses were actual historical personages, you could see and become attached to their message with greater avidity and warmth and enthusiasm than if you found out that, you know, Jesus was really an amalgam of a bunch of rabbis who were writing at the time, and they were pretty much fed up with being told what to eat and, you know, with whom to sleep and what to wear and, you know, how to pray and so on. the time, whether he was a real single person or whether he was a construct designed to put forth a point of view that was like just a great relief to people. So, you know, Confucian society was quite regimented as early Orthodox Judaism was, and is. And so, you know, being offered a way to still be considered a good person, a religious person, in the case of

Starting point is 00:21:06 Christianity, a God-fearing person, and yet have some personal freedom and have the ability to be bacchanalian and go into the mountains and meditate in the cave if you want and drink wine and write poetry and do all those things, but still be considered a worthy person. This was the attraction of that early Taoist message, and maybe the power of the Tao Te Ching and why both the Tao Te Ching and the Judeo-Christian Bible have become, from what I hear, the two most widely translated works in the world. Yeah, we had a guest on, Edward Slingerland, who wrote a book called Trying Not to Try, and he talks about a lot of ancient Chinese philosophy, Confucianism and Taoism. But he has a funny line in there where he refers to the Tao Te Ching as possibly the book that more joints have been rolled to than any other book in history, which I thought was funny.

Starting point is 00:21:59 The minute you say that, I think of Tai Chi joint locking, of course, and rolling the shoulder over to his uncle. But yeah, different joint here. Different joint, yes. Well, you know, I actually corresponded with Professor Slingerland once or twice. And I did hear his interview on your show, and I liked it. It was very interesting. So I'm going to read a section from the Tao Te Ching and just kind of ask you to elaborate or, you know, talk about kind of what it means to you. And this will be from the Stephen Mitchell translation. It is number 44. Right. Fame or integrity, which is more important? Money or happiness, which is more valuable? Success or failure, which is more destructive? If you look to others for fulfillment,

Starting point is 00:22:44 you will never truly be fulfilled. If look to others for fulfillment, you will never truly be fulfilled. If your happiness depends on money, you will never be happy with yourself. Be content with what you have. Rejoice in the way things are. When you realize there is nothing lacking, the whole world belongs to you. Do you see how deeply revolutionary and rebellious that is? Oh, yeah. Yes, I do. I read it as an 18-year-old probably in a suburban town that was, you know, in my view of the world, that's all anybody cared about at that point was money, which was not true. But that was my view of it. So I do recognize that this was, for me, this was very revolutionary. For me, this was very revolutionary, and I'm sure far more so in an age like the one you're talking about, when it was originally written. So, if I may, I want to just talk to you about this from a personal point of view. Please. home with a very, very successful, famous father. My dad, Isidore Rosenfeld, he's still with us,

Starting point is 00:23:54 was, you know, one of the most famous heart specialists in the world for many years. And he had, as his patients, and not only, but among his patients, he had many luminous individuals, people who, you know, ran the world, you know, captains of industry and Hollywood stars and powerful politicians and heads of state and so on. And I watched as a young man, as a boy, I watched a parade of these folks through the lives of my family. I saw them in our home. We would take holidays on their islands and their yachts and travel the world in their company. Probably because like you, I was born with a certain gene, which made me a real pain in the ass to my parents. I had my doubts about all this. And I had my doubts that if these things that I was being told were true, or in fact, the way the world really did work. And if fame and wealth and power and beauty and notoriety and all the rest of it, if all that was really the be-all, end-all, the purpose, the thing for which we should strive and so on,

Starting point is 00:25:17 then how come so many of these people that I saw growing up were so miserable? How come, you know, they threw their wives down the stairs or they went to jail or their parents or their children hated them or or you know they were just assholes and and you know what this is not true of this was not true of all the people that i'm talking about there were many wonderful people among them but But I was able to, I think, at that tender age, separate, to tease out the good characteristics of the people that I thought were great from the ones that I didn't think were so good. And to realize that there was no connection there to their fame and the rest of it. to their fame and the rest of it. Right.

Starting point is 00:26:07 So I think, you know, early on, what you have alluded to, I believe, and what I experienced, I know, was, you know, sort of the path, the seeker, the calling of the seeker, the personality of the seeker, whatever you like. In fact, Guy Leakley's Dao De Jing that I recommended to you earlier, unfortunately, Guy Leakley was a good friend of mine, and he passed away just a short while ago. And it was very sad to lose him because he was a wonderful scholar and writer on the Tao Te Ching.

Starting point is 00:26:31 But anyway, you know, I think if those things weren't true, what else wasn't true? Right. Think of Guy because he titled his Tao Te Ching, you know, a version for all seekers. So, you know, people who are listening, I would guess, I would bet that, you know, people who are listening, I would guess, I would bet that, you know, people who listen to this podcast of yours, and I know a few, and I'm an ardent

Starting point is 00:26:53 listener myself. I, you know, I think that people who listen are seekers, right? I mean, and then you obviously must be a seeker, one or both of you, otherwise, you wouldn't have this, it must be a seeker, one or both of you, otherwise you wouldn't have this show. So, you know, I think knowing that you have this deep suspiciousness, knowing that you recognize that the speed and greed culture in which we live, which is guided very much by our corporate masters, their lobbyists, their control of media, and so on, happily not this medium yet, is a relief. And the Tao Te Ching, for me, and I don't know if it did this for you, I don't know how early you discovered it, but for me, when I discovered this book, you know, 30, 40 years ago and began to read it, I realized that I was too young and insecure to have confidence in my own way of looking at the world. I wasn't sure about what I saw.

Starting point is 00:27:57 I wasn't sure about what I believed. And just finding out that there was this entire body of thought, which so completely validated that, you know, what I was seeing in the world, you know, the questioning of our capitalist materialist society and its values, but also a lot of other things in our Judeo-Christian tradition. For example, you know, the biblical notion of hegemony for human beings over the natural world, something that is written and spoken of often these days in environmentalist and climate change circles, right? If we didn't have a point of view that this is all here for us and that we can kill all the rhinos we want to grind up their horns so that we'll perform better in bed. We can kill all the bears we want to do the same with their gallbladders. We can take all the deer we want for the same reason. We can cure cancer by grinding up the shells of every endangered turtle in the world and all that. If people didn't really somehow think that,

Starting point is 00:29:11 and I used a lot of examples there from Chinese medicine, but this is a thread that goes through from our Western culture to the East, is the idea that if we didn't believe that we were somehow more important and that we were not so special in this whole natural world, something that Taoism doesn't exactly believe, at least not the same way, then our environment would look completely different. Our whole world would look different.

Starting point is 00:29:44 So these are big important ideas yeah it's that whole idea that it's that it's not connected that this thing over there does not connect to this thing over here you know we don't connect to the environment i think is what's missing from so much of modern thought So this business of connecting is very interesting from a Taoist perspective because it can be interpreted, and it should be, two different ways. Or not two different ways, but on two different levels. The first is the non-dual, which is to say that everything is one, everything is connected. And we were talking, or I'll come back to the other

Starting point is 00:30:47 in a second. We were talking about Lao Tzu a moment ago and about this, you know, Lao Tzu means the old boy, the old master, the great sage. And it's really a title more than it is a name. He had a family name, but who knows if it's real. But, you know, his job, this putative author of this book that we both love so much, his job at the time of the Eastern Zhou Dynasty, so let's call it 500 or 600 BC, maybe a little bit later, later. His job was, he was a fortune teller. He was a librarian and an oracle. This is how I render him, by the way, in my novel, Yin, and I had great fun with it. But long years, long years, right? Yeah. Which, by the way, probably refers to his Burmese origins. He may have come from, well, he was supposed to have come from the state of Chu

Starting point is 00:31:45 in those days before there was a China. China didn't come around for another 300 years or so. And that area is what now we would call Myanmar. I just came back from there. But anyway, so Lao Tzu was a fortune teller. And his job might have been, and this speaks to your question or your point about connection to the world. His job was likely to advise the king. Now, remember, this was not an emperor. This was a hegemon, a ba. He was a strongman, a local king, one of maybe some hundreds that existed in the area we now call China. These were fiefdoms, small kingdoms. And so his king was likely to have said to him something like, hey,

Starting point is 00:32:33 I don't have enough troops to protect our entire border, but I'm worried that we're going to be attacked by a neighboring kingdom or somebody else. Tell me where should I put my troops? And this is an example of this that I often use talking about this. And, you know, so Lao Tzu would have gone down to the river, and the capital of this dynasty was at that time in Luoyang, an early capital of China. And he would have watched them. I'm Jason Alexander.

Starting point is 00:33:02 And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you, and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer.

Starting point is 00:33:31 And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Brian Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really, No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman.

Starting point is 00:33:42 And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging really that's the opening really no really yeah no really go to really no really.com and register to win 500 a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition signed jason bobblehead it's called really no really and you can find it on the iheart radio app on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. River, and he might have seen, for example, some mica in the sand at the bottom of the clear running water. And he might have known that that mica or some other little glimmering mineral that he saw in the sand came from the high moraine high up, you know, in the mountains above this kingdom. And he would know that if he saw those little shimmering bits of rock in the water, it meant that they were being washed down from the mountains, which in turn meant that the snow was melting. And if the snow was melting early, that meant

Starting point is 00:34:39 that mountain passes that might be normally impenetrable at a certain time of year would now be available, passable. And so he might rush back to the king and say, hey, put the soldiers to the north. That's where the mountains are. And in fact, there's going to be a surprise attack. Get ready, you know, for ambush them. And so the king, you know, would listen to him because he would trust him and know he was wise and observed nature, nature and human nature. I make the artificial distinction just to make the point. And so the king would go ahead and put his troops there and, you know, it would work out. These bad guys would come through the pass. They'd be slaughtered. The kingdom would be saved. Lots of would get another hundred concubines and

Starting point is 00:35:21 some tales of gold. Right. right right so so one sense of connecting with nature was to be watchful and sensitive to it right to see our own fates in the melting of the snow and the sign of the river right but another very very specifically taoist idea, which is regrettably absent from the Judeo-Christian model, although there are certainly some Jewish and Christian people who espouse this idea, is the idea of stewardship. So the idea that we would not be given this world as our sandbox, our playpen, but rather we would be given by dint of our intellect and our abilities, we would be given stewardship of it.

Starting point is 00:36:19 And this is an idea that goes back to Neolithic tribal, you know, proto-religious times, goes back to the South Pacific Islanders and their chieftains and their chiefdoms. It goes back to a lot of Aboriginal societies. The Aboriginal people of Australia still have these ideas very clearly about, you know, our our role in things, not just that we are connected and will suffer at the hands of nature with a capital N, but that there is a binary back and forth flow of traffic between us and nature, and that we are so actually part of it that to say us and nature is to create a dual structure that doesn't even exist. Our role in the play is to be stewards. I love that about Taoism. And it's very clearly connected to deep ecology and other things that have come

Starting point is 00:37:26 about much more recently. And by the way, there are Taoist scholars who don't like this idea at all and think that what I'm saying is very much wishful thinking on the part of an American guy living on the edge of environmental cataclysm. But there are other scholars who support it. Excellent. Thank you so much for coming on the show. This has been a really enjoyable conversation. I think we'll keep in touch via email because I've got a bunch more questions for you over time. Your book comes out tomorrow. Now, when listeners listen to this, it won't be tomorrow.

Starting point is 00:37:58 It will already be out. It will already be out. It's called Yin, and it's a novel that weaves a lot of these Taoist concepts in. And I'm not 100% finished. I'm about 85% of the way through, and I have really enjoyed it. I think it's a love story. It's got the Taoist concepts, and it's got some humor in it. So it's really well written, and I encourage the listeners to check it out.

Starting point is 00:38:25 And we'll have links to that as well as the Dao De Ching and other things on the show notes. Thank you so much for having me on. Thank you. I really appreciate it. Take care. Take care. Bye. you can learn more about yunrou and this podcast at one you feed.net slash yunrou that's y-u-n-r-o-u thanks

The One You Feed - Monk Yunrou

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