The One You Feed - Practical Techniques to Manage Anxiety, Improve Listening, and Speak Clearly When It Matters Most with Matt Abrahams

Episode Date: May 5, 2026

In this episode, Matt Abrahams, author of Think Faster, Talk Smarter: How to Speak Successfully When You’re Put on the Spot, shares practical techniques to manage anxiety, improve listening, and speak clearly when it matters most. Matt explores how to improve spontaneous communication under pressure, embrace imperfection, and enhance important listening skills. Matt introduces practical frameworks like “What, So What, Now What” for structuring responses and the “ABC” approach for handling communication anxiety. He emphasizes that anyone can improve these skills with practice and the right mindset. Struggling to stick to your goals? Sign up to receive the FREE  6 Saboteurs of Self-Control Workshop replay. You’ll learn the six hidden obstacles that sabotage your progress and how to overcome them. From breaking free of autopilot habits to tackling self-doubt and emotional escapism, this workshop offers practical tools and strategies to help you make better choices and stay aligned with your values.  Key Takeaways: The brain’s cognitive bandwidth and its impact on spontaneous communication. The evolutionary origins of communication anxiety and its prevalence. Techniques for managing communication anxiety using the ABC framework (Affective, Behavioral, Cognitive). The importance of meta-awareness in recognizing internal and external communication dynamics. Embracing imperfection and the concept of “good enough” in spontaneous speaking. The significance of explaining the “why” behind messages to enhance understanding. Transforming small talk through open-ended questions and genuine curiosity. Balancing supportive and switching turns in conversations for richer interactions. The role of mindset in viewing spontaneous speaking as an opportunity for growth. The importance of listening skills and reducing noise that impedes effective communication. For full show notes:⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠click here⁠⁠⁠!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ If you enjoyed this conversation with Matt Abrahams, check out these other episodes: How We Can Improve Communication in Polarized Times with Charles Duhigg Oren Jay Sofer on Mindful Communication By purchasing products and/or services from our sponsors, you are helping to support The One You Feed, and we greatly appreciate it. Thank you! This episode is sponsored by: ⁠⁠Aura Frames: Named #1 by Wirecutter, you can save on the gifts moms love by visiting AuraFrames.com. For a limited time, listeners can get 25 dollars off their best-selling Carver Mat frame with code FEED. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout! Rocket Money Let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster. Join at rocketmoney.com/feed. Taskrabbit: When life happens, your to-do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get fifteen dollars off your first task at Taskrabbit.com or on the Taskrabbit app using promo code FEED. Taskers book up fast, especially for same-day tasks, so book trusted home help today. Hello Fresh – Get 10 free meals + a FREE Zwilling Knife (a $144.99 value) on your third box. Offer valid while supplies last. Alma has a directory of 20,000 therapists with different specialities, life experiences, and identities, and 99% of them take insurance. Visit helloalma.com to learn more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Your brain in many senses is like a computer. It's not a perfect analogy. But you know on your laptop or phone or tablet when you have lots of windows or apps open, each one of those is behaving less well because the others are open. They're all sucking that precious CPU bandwidth. Your brain is the same way. You have only so much cognitive bandwidth. Welcome to the one you feed.

Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter.

It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. In this episode, Eric and Matt Abrams explore how to think faster and talk smarter when you're put on the spot, especially in those moments when pressure rises and your mind doesn't quite cooperate. They discuss why communication anxiety is so common, where it actually comes from, and how to manage it without trying to eliminate it. Because the goal isn't to get rid of anxiety, it's to keep it from getting in the way. Eric and Matt also explore why aiming for good enough can actually make you a more effective communicator and how the pressure to be perfect often makes things worse, not better.

Throughout the conversation, they share practical tools like simple communication structures, ways to ask better questions, and techniques for listening more deeply that can help anyone communicate more clearly even in high-pressure situations. If you've ever struggled to find the right words or felt your mind go blank right when it mattered most, this episode offers tools you can start using right away. This is the one you feed. Hi, Matt. Welcome to the show.

Eric, thrilled to be here. I look forward to our conversation. We're going to be discussing your book, Think Faster, Talk Smarter, How to Speak Successfully, when you're put on the spot. And I really love this idea right now because it's one thing to prepare speeches. we're all using AI to communicate more in our writing. We can refine things. But it's not there to help us when someone asks us a question

or we're in small talk or we're in a meeting. And so there's so many great skills in here that can be applied in a lot of different situations that I think will give people a lot more confidence when it comes to their ability to respond to imprompt to situations. Absolutely. That's the intent of the book. If you think about it,

Most of our communication, both in our personal and professional lives, is spontaneous. You know, it's not the planned PowerPoint, keynote, Google slides, meetings with agenda. Somebody asks you a question. You have to give feedback in the moment. You make a mistake and you have to fix it. Most of our communication happens in a spontaneous, impromptu way. And yet, most of us aren't ever trained in how to manage that. And that's really what I've spent the last few years of my life, helping people to come feel more comfortable and confident when put on the same.

spot. Excellent. So we're going to get to all that in a moment, but we have to start in the way that we always start, which is with the parable. And in the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild, and they say in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other's a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops. Think about it for a second. They look up with their grandparent and they say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. You know, it's a very

powerful parable and one that I have heard many times and have reflected on often. You know, for me, it's all about focus. It's about attention and intention. And where do you put your attention and your intention really matters. And for me, it's all about helping people and myself to hone and develop our communication skills. At the end of the day, communication is all about connection. And if we feed that, if we invest effort in working on it, I like to say there are only three ways to get better at communication, repetition, reflection, and feedback. And if you give yourself the grace and the time, feed that desire, you can actually improve how you communicate with others, which ultimately means how you connect and build relationships. Wonderful. That's a great place for

us to kick off. You come right out of the gates in the book talking about one of the things that messes up people in their ability to communicate with others on the spot is anxiety. Yes. We get very anxious. Tell me a little bit about that idea. Yeah. So those of us who study anxiety around communication, and it is ubiquitous. There's research that suggests up to 85% of people experience anxiety in high-stakes situation, be they planned or spontaneous. It is part of of the human condition, at least those of us who study it, believe that, and it's ingrained in us. Now, that said, we don't have to fall victim to it. We can actually claim power over it and leverage that anxiety to help us, so we can do things about it.

It boils down to when we communicate in front of others, we feel it as a threat, and it has an evolutionary origin. In the small bands of people that our species used to hang out in tens, 10s,000 years ago, your relative status in that group meant everything. If you had higher status, you got access to resources, food, shelter, reproduction. If you had low status, it was literally life or death. So anything you did that would jeopardize that status would invoke a fear and a threat. And speaking in front of others in a small group like that could jeopardize everything for you. And so we carry that forward with us.

yet over time we've learned and developed techniques to help us learn to manage that anxiety. And I use manage very carefully. I don't think we can ever truly overcome it, but we can learn to manage our anxiety so it doesn't manage us. You talk about the ABC framework for managing anxiety. Yeah. So ABC, very simple to remember, affective, that is emotion, B is for behavior and C is for cognition.

So any emotion affects us on these three levels. But when it comes to anxiety, we can address each of those levels with different management techniques. So from an affective perspective, that's the emotional perspective, we might feel unworthy or some form of imposter syndrome. I shouldn't be here doing this. And there's a lot of research that reframing that as an opportunity, seeing it as value you have to provide, can blunt that negative affect. So a very simple thing people can do is a positive mantra or affect. I use this all the time. When I feel as if I'm inadequate in the moment for whatever that speaking moment is, I'll say simply, I have value to bring. There's something I know I was invited here.

I have value to bring. And that can cancel out a lot of that negative self-talk. So that's an example of addressing affective issues. Behaviorally, many of us feel our hearts pounding, our blushing, or sweating. Deep belly breathing is one example of something we can do. If you've ever done yoga, Tai Chi, Chi Gong, meditation, that deep belly breath can calm those nerves and reduce those behavioral symptoms. And then cognition, you know, many of us are worried and are speaking about not achieving whatever our goal is. So what's making us nervous is a potential, negative, future outcome. So a way to short circuit the anxiety that comes from the fear of not achieving our goal is to become present oriented. Do something physical, walk around the building. Do like

athlete, listen to a song or a playlist. I like to say tongue twisters out loud. That's a way of warming up my voice and getting me present oriented. Would you like to hear my warm up tongue twisted? I would love to hear how you warm up. I'm going to blow it here on air, but it's one hen, two ducks, three squawking geese, four limerick oysters, five corpulent porpoises, six pairs of Donovarsus tweezers, seven thousand Macedonians in full balleret, eight brass monkeys from the ancient sacred crypts of Egypt, nine apathetic, sympathetic, diabetic old men on roller skates with a market propensity towards procrastination, sloth, 10 lyrical, spherical, diabolical, denizens, the deep pulse, all around the corner of the co, the quay, the quivery, all at the same time.

I love it. And I am very well aware of that. It's an old one, yeah. The power of that is not only does it help you focus in the moment, but in saying that, you say every sound that we have in the English language. So you are warming up your voice. Every sound we make is in that 10 list. and I love it. Well done. I don't have it memorized. I have to read it. It's questionable whether,

if you listen to the unedited version of this podcast, it's questionable whether it actually helps or not because I'll hit a three-syllable word and I'm done. But yes, carry on. I love that you do that. So the bottom line is this. Most people are nervous. We have to recognize that. And then there are things that we can do to help ourselves. Everybody I coach, everybody I teach, I talk about building an anxiety management plan. These are techniques that you can do before and during your communication, be it planned or spontaneous, to help you manage the symptoms and sources of your anxiety.

And everybody's plan will be slightly different because everybody is different. The first book I wrote was called Speaking Up Without Freaking Out, 50 techniques to Manage Anxiety. And one of the 50 techniques works for people. I am thrilled if three to five techniques work for people. Yep. And so you have to take the time to think about the anxiety, think about what works for you, and then work on it. Do you, Eric, have a specific thing you do besides the 10 phrase warm up to help you feel comfortable in those moments of anxiety? I don't get them often. Good for you. Is that always been the case? I think to a certain degree, yeah. I don't know why. Maybe lying so much as a child.

Well, you know, you told me that you were a position. Prepared me, you know, or. Yeah, being a musician, I just, you could put me in certain rooms where I would get nervous, or you could have a certain guest on that might make me a little nervous, in which case I'd need to work on some of that stuff. But I'm generally pretty comfortable talking, whether it's in a group, whether it's in a meeting, improvising, public speaking, doing this podcast. You're seeing pretty at ease. Well, yeah, I mean, that's a whole lot of work in a whole lot of realms over a lot of years. Right. Yes, right.

But yes, that's good. And the reality is some people feel more comfortable than others. And those who do, I feel, need to role model for those who don't, how you can get there. So the work you is helping people who might not be as comfortable as you. Yeah, I love the breaking it down into the ABCs because you're right. Any situation there is a, there's the effective, there's the emotion, then there's the behavior and then there's the cognitive or thinking aspects. And being able to intervene in different ways is really helpful. So when you encourage somebody to create anxiety management plan. Are you asking them to sort of put one or two in each of those categories? Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So first and foremost, what I'll do to help people, and anybody can do this on their own, is I ask people to think about a situation that would make them nervous speaking, being planned or spontaneous, and to describe it. And what I'm listening for, the words they use to describe their anxiety. So if somebody spends a lot of time talking about, well, it's the number of people in the room or the power and status of people in the room. That leads me to think of certain techniques that might help them.

So, for example, if you're really worried about the number of people in the room, then there are techniques to help you connect and make that room feel smaller, maybe asking a question, taking a poll, and when you get that response, all of a sudden it feels conversational. For people who talk about, oh, if I don't do well, I'm not going to get that raise or I'm not going to get my project supported, that leads me to think, okay, that's that cognitive goal direction. So a different technique would come in. So by having people speak out or write out their fearful situation, it gives clues as to which technique. And then you begin looking at where's there an effective technique, a behavioral technique, and a cognitive technique that could plug in here.

Okay. So let me give you an example that largely isn't a problem for me anymore, although it's still there, which was that when I would go into a meeting with men of a certain age, i.e. my father's age generally. And they were at all stoic or cold or just non-responsive, non-effusive in their way they look at me. I would start getting nervous. Yeah. I would start to get anxiety. Now, I know where it comes from and all that, but still in the moment, I had to work with it. So how would you counsel, let's just say me before I sort of stumbled my way into how to deal with it? Right. So what I'm hearing is part of what triggered some anxiety for you was where you had power in status differentials. They were older, more experience, and they were not very responsive. So they weren't engaging.

So part of what I would do from an affective, emotional place is I would work again on a positive affirmation, that there's value you can bring, there's insight that you can provide, there's experience that you've had that could add value here. And we would try to name it and figure out what that is. So you could say that as you walk in to cancel out some of that, perhaps self-doubt. Behaviorally, depending on what would happen, I don't know if your heart would be faster. I don't know if you perspire more. Can you reflect on those moments? What would happen in your body? That's hard to say. What I noticed is I would subtly start to alter what I was saying to what I thought they wanted to do. I see. So let's give you an example. I'm on a call. I'm teaching 50

student something. Yes. And I see a guy on the Zoom who looks like, you know, he's an older person and he's just kind of giving me the look. Like, yes. All of a sudden think, like, what I'm saying is just too touchy-feely for him. And so I would notice myself wanting to adjust what I was saying or doing to get rid of that. So that skill, that metacognition of here's what's happening in that moment, it can be very useful. It can also be harmful. It can be distracting because now you're other focused in a way that's pulling you from a message. But in that moment, so you could take a deep breath to calm yourself down because you're getting spun up a little bit, probably thinking really fast so that deep breath can not only slow down your heart rate, but it slows down your

thinking. So that behavioral action would be a good to take a deep breath. And cognitively, I would challenge you in that moment to think about what am I saying? What am I bringing to this communication that has relevance for the people I'm talking to. One of the ways to pull people into engagement is to highlight the relevance. And sometimes you can name it. Sometimes you can say, this will help you feel better. You'll sleep more thoroughly, whatever it is. Other times, you can ask people by simply saying, think through what this might mean for you or imagine what it would be like if you were able to. So you can have them come to the relevance themselves. But by serving up the relevance, one, it validates the value you're bringing, but also engages them and

pulls them forward. So for you, based on that very short description, those would be three techniques I would look to have you try. And an anxiety management plan is nothing more than a set of hypotheses. It's an experiment. You have to run the experiment. And sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. If two of the three work well for you, we call that a success and we try to add another one. I'll admit I'm a little spoiled. Ginny does a lot of the cooking, and she's great at it. However, she has been traveling a lot lately, and I am really busy launching a book,

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and take the first step towards getting back on track. I think what I generally would do, because it doesn't happen in like work meetings anymore to that degree. But if I'm on like a call teaching a group of students, as I just redirect my attention to all the people who are looking positive and enthused and loving what I'm saying. And I just go, okay, let me, you know, for me, if I focus on that, it allows me not to. Absolutely. It brings you back to the present. And again, that meta awareness that you have is really helpful. And I work with a lot of the people I coach and the students I teach.

teach to build that meta awareness. We can be so self-focused that we're not observing what's going on. And many of us carry around in communication the goal of just broadcasting information. That's not the goal of communication. The goal of communication is to have the message connect and resonate with the audience. So you have to have that ability to observe and see what's going on. All right. So let's move on to another idea where you say that when it comes to spontaneous speaking, good enough is good. great. Yes. So share what you mean by that. So this is an idea that comes from the world of improvisation. So when I started doing my research into spontaneous speaking, I looked at across multiple fields of academic studies, psychology, anthropology, sociology, neuroscience.

And I also looked into the arts. And in improvisation is a wonderful tool. And in the world of improv, the focus is on what's happening in the moment. And when we put pressure on ourselves to do whatever happening in the moment right or perfect, that gets in the way of us actually doing it well. Let me explain why this works. Your brain in many senses is like a computer. It's not a perfect analogy. But you know on your laptop or phone or tablet when you have lots of windows or apps open, each one of those is behaving less well because the others are open. They're all sucking that precious CPU bandwidth. Your brain is the same way. You have only so much cognitive bandwidth. And if I am constantly judging and evaluating what I'm saying as I'm saying it, I end up

reducing the amount of bandwidth I have to actually connect and communicate effectively. So I have the audacity with my Stanford MBA students on the very first day of class. I tell them that the goal in our class is to maximize their mediocrity. And Eric, their jaws drop. These folks have never been told to be mediocre. No. But we talk about why? Because when you just strive to get the job done, not to do it perfect, just to get it done. You actually have more resources to do it really well. So I like to say it's about connection, not perfection, strive for mediocrity to achieve communication greatness. When we focus on connection and not saying every single word right, by the way, there is no right way to communicate. There are only

better ways and worse ways. And when we realize that, it makes a difference. And that's what really helps unlock for a lot of people. When you give yourself that permission, just good enough is great, all the sudden great things happen. Right. It's advice that's given to writers all the time, which is you've got to divorce the editing part of your brain from the creating part of your brain. If the editor is there when you're creating, it's very, very difficult to create. If you think that what's going on the page has to be good, at least for me, I was in trouble. Like, that doesn't work. I have to get something down. There's a stage. There's a point where I come back and say, all right, now let me think about this.

And I think that's what you're talking about. There is a way to go back and review our communication to reflect on it, to see what we might have done differently. But in the moment is not the time for that to be happening. One quick comment. That distinction between the creative writing brain and the editing brain, I physically have to move to a different location. So I write in a different location than I edit because I need that external reinforcement to help that separation. It's a great idea. But this notion of reflection is key.

You must reflect, but not in the moment. So I don't know how familiar you are with college basketball, but there was a great coach, Mike Shoshiewski. And he used to teach his players this notion of next play. So if you're a basketball player and you're going down the court and you make a mistake, you miss a shot, your ball gets stolen from you. Rather in that moment than ruminating, talking bad about yourself, you have to get back. on that next play because if you don't, your team's one person down. We have to do the same in our communication. If something doesn't go right in the moment, next play, move on, later reflect. Reflection is critical to improving any kind of any skill, but especially communication.

But you don't do it in the moment. I love the next play idea in general. That is such a valuable way of moving forward when something has not gone right. Correct. we can get so stuck in those things in all domains, in so many domains. And, you know, Next Play is just a very useful framework that's easy to think about. Absolutely. You say that there's a surprising power of because. What do you mean by that? Well, when we look at the why behind the what, it can be very empowering to us. And because gives us an explanation, a reason. Now, we have to judge and evaluate that. Is it appropriate? Sometimes our rationale is it comes from a different place. Many of us, especially in our communication, we're looking for what to do. What do I do right? What do I do wrong? And instead, really focus on the rationale, the reason behind. So the why behind the what is very powerful. I find that the people I teach, the people I coach really like to explore the why behind the what. And then it inculcates it. It makes it part of you when you have that understanding. So thinking through the because of what we do is really important.

At the end of the day, Eric, all I do is try to help people turn habits into choices. Most people have found ways to communicate effectively, enough to get by. But there are other options and choices that we could make that might help us do things differently or better. And understanding the because, the why behind the what, allows us to ask, is this habitual way of doing my communication serving me as well as it could or is there another option so focusing on that is is important i love that idea of habits into choices because we talk a lot about habits i mean i ran a program called wise habits spiritual habits right you know so there's this idea that ideally if you have a choice that is well considered if you can make it more habitual the behavior more

habitual that's good that's a positive use of it but the exact opposite is true there's a zen teacher i love who describes us as uh that habit-ridden consciousness yes and when you think about not just what you say but how we think there's so much of it just happens unconsciously and when i was reading your book i started reflecting on my own communications and i was like there is a enormously habitual amount of that. And again, that's good. If I had to ponder in great detail, everything I was going to say to everyone I met, I would be a mess. Correct. And there are ways that we want to become more conscious of what we're doing. And I love that idea of habit to choice. Yeah. And you know, in the academic world, we call these heuristics. We just follow certain patterns that have served us well.

And we need heuristics. I mean, if you think about the amount of decisions you make on a daily basis, it would be paralyzing if we didn't have these heuristics. But at the same time, heuristics lock us in to a certain way of doing things. And so, again, coming back to that notion of meta-awareness, metacognition, we have to have that moment of saying, I'm going to turn my heuristic off here because something important is happening. The example I always use is this is a true story. I came out of a meeting with a colleague, and the colleague turned to me and says,

how do you think it went? I heuristically heard, oh, feedback. And I went in and itemized all the things we did. did wrong, could have done better. Had I really paused and listened and watched the person, so listen, not just to what he said, but watched how it was said, where it was said, he didn't want feedback at all. He wanted support because he knew the meeting went poorly. And because I just clicked into that heuristic mode of giving feedback, I damaged our relationship. It took me almost six months to repair that relationship because of that one heuristic bias I had. He thought you were kicking

him when he was down. Exactly. And I just, I just was not there in the moment realizing what he really needed. And that's the danger of this kind of habitual, heuristic thinking. Again, it serves a valid purpose, but it can get us in trouble. I have a good friend who recently has started, every time somebody asks him how he's doing, he says, best day in my life. I love that. And he started doing it, not because he is a perpetually optimistic person. He started doing it because he realized what we're talking about, that all these interactions, they're just pattern repeats. How are you doing? Fine.

Like, none of it went anywhere. None of it did anything. And he was like, I'm going to start. And so I think he came up with a couple of snarkier ones. And he was like, no, that's not me. But I've seen him do this in restaurants multiple times. Server says, how are you doing? He says, best day in my life.

And all of a sudden, now there's an interaction with that server. You pattern interrupted them. They're used to saying, how you do, and you say, fine. Then you give me your order. And now this guy is just, just kind of broken that up. Now, I will say, I tried this on my sister, on my sister, who knows me a little too well, she was like, no, it's not. But I bet you you had an interesting conversation or a different conversation that you might have. We absolutely did. Yes, we did. I love pattern disrupts.

And this is really leading into what can make small talk so magical. Many people really loathe small talk, because they don't know how to start it, they don't know how to end it. But what you're talking about is exactly how. You do something that's interesting. You demonstrate interest. You throw, in the world of improvisation, they call it, you make an offer. You put something forward, and somebody can take that offer. Many of our offers are habitual and ritualized. And when you do something that's slightly different, all of a sudden, there's a spark there. And if the person's willing to take the bait to play with you, if you will, then all of a sudden some magic can happen. All right. So let's have you coach me through a conversation. So this happened last night. I'm pulling all kinds of examples out here. Yeah. Communication is ubiquitous. It's everywhere. Yeah. I got it in an Uber. And my tendency is just to sit in the back and go about my business. But every once in a while, I have an interesting conversation. And I thought, I'm going to try and do that more often. So I get into the Uber. And I ask him, what now as I'm talking to you, I'm thinking through, I asked him closed questions. Yeah. How long? long have you been an Uber driver? Right. How long have you been in Columbus? Right. And he would,

he would answer, I've been an Uber driver for five years. Right. That's it. Yeah. I've been in Columbus six years. Yeah. That's it. And again, it's possible the guy just doesn't want to chat, but it's also very possible that he like me can't figure out how to get the conversation going. And I've not given him any kind of good offer at that point, right? That's correct. That's correct. So part of this has to do with approach and framing. On a podcast I host Think Fast Talk Smart, I interviewed a woman named Rachel Greenwald. Rachel's fantastic. She's an academic and a professional matchmaker. So she's in the trenches. And she taught me something that really helped me reframe these. She said the goal of any conversation, especially small talk, is to be interested, not interesting.

Many of us put a lot of pressure on ourselves to say something interesting and catchy. And in fact, all we have to do is be interested. And then pair with that, what you highlighted, open questions, not closed questions, really can allow something to get started. So instead of saying, how long have you been driving Uber, you could have said, what's one of the things you like most about driving Uber? And all of a sudden, that opens up to a conversation. It signals interest, curiosity.

Instead of, you know, what do you think of Columbus, you could have said, what are two or three of the most favorite places you like to go or you've dropped people off at? All of a sudden, you're showing interest and giving a pathway to a deeper conversation. There's been times where I knew I could use some extra support, some therapy. And then I would start looking and it's like, who's a good fit? Who takes insurance? How do I even sort through all of these options? And that's why I love what Alma is doing. They've built a network of over 20,000 therapists,

and you can browse their directory without creating an account. You can filter by the things that actually matter, like what you're dealing with, the therapist's approach, even background. So it feels a lot more human and a lot less like guesswork. And one thing that really stands out, most Alma therapists except insurance. On average, people save about 80% on sessions, which makes getting help feel a lot more doable. Because for a lot of us finding therapists, we just don't know where to start and we worry about the cost.

So if you've been thinking about therapy but haven't taken that first step, this is a good place to begin. Go to helloalma.com slash feed. That's hello-a-l-m-a-com slash feed and find a therapist who fits you. So I have another question for you communication related because I am maybe too much happy to take the interested role. Maybe it's just my profession is just asking people questions so I can do it. Maybe it's just habitual. You're good at it. But one of the things I've noticed is that there are some people who will never come back around and then ask anything, it all about me.

And what I can't tell is, am I just? dominating the whole thing with my questions, or do these people really just only think about themselves? Do you have any theories or thoughts on that? You've studied this a lot. Well, so I'm very familiar with the literature. So there are people who study conversational science. And when they look at conversations, they look at turns. If you think about it, a conversation is nothing more than taking turns, sharing control of communication. And there are two fundamental types of turns. There are support terms, turns that support what's being said, and then there are switching turns that switch, focus, or topic. And what the research suggests is you want to blend of both, maybe slightly

in favor of supporting turns. So you, Eric, are very good at asking questions. Those questions tend to be very supportive and keep the conversation focused on the other person. A good blend is appropriate. So as you look at your conversations, and I would challenge everybody to think about a successful conversation you've had, I can almost guarantee it involved a balance of supporting through questions and staying on a topic and then switching. So just to make it very clear, imagine you tell me, hey, Matt, I just got back from Hawaii. A supporting question or conversational turn might be, oh, which island did you go to? A switching turn would be, oh, how cool. I just got back from Costa Rica. So a good conversation blends both of those.

if all you do is ask supporting and all you do is push supporting, it looks like you're trying to deflect and don't want to be part of the conversation. You're interrogating. And if all you do is switching and make it all about you, you look narcissistic. So we need to balance these. And again, it's an awareness of it. And so having the tools to do the switching, to do the supporting, open questions help with support, paraphrasing, helps with switching. By developing those skills, you can have richer, deeper, more beneficial conversations. That's really helpful. That's really helpful because I definitely am really good at the supportive.

Yeah. I'm generally interested. I ask a question. They say something. I'm like, oh, well, what's it like to be that person or what's it like to do that job? Or when you're in that job, how do you solve this problem? Like, I'm genuinely always very interested, but I don't switch much. Yeah.

And curiosity is fantastic. And people generally like to talk about themselves. They know something about it. But at the same time, if you don't, if all you do is come at them with support, they can feel, I wouldn't say attack. It's definitely overfocus on. All right. Mindset. Yes.

Let's talk about the value, importance of mindset in communication and give us some that you've found that make us better communicators. Yeah. So in the methodology that I developed around spontaneous speaking, it divides into two major parts, mindset and message. mindset is critical. We've already talked a little bit about anxiety management, and that's part of mindset. Many of us approach our communication, especially spontaneous communication, as a threat, as a challenge, as some kind of crucible we have to make our way through. And in fact, it doesn't have to be that way. Think of a Q&A situation. When most people find out that people are going to ask them questions, they don't say, great, I'm really excited to do that.

They think, oh, no, I have to defend my position. People are going to find holes in what I've said, maybe they're inadequacies. If we can reframe that, change our mindset to see these situations as opportunities to connect, to expand, to learn, all the sudden it changes everything. It changes our approach, our demeanor, our answers are longer, our responses are more cooperative. So I'm not naive, though. There are people who do come at you with heat and spice and challenge, but even in those moments, you can find some area of connection. Let's say you and I, Eric, are having a conversation and you really challenge me. Your view is opposing completely mine.

Communication is worthless, Matt. That's my view. You couldn't even say that without a smile on your face. But even in that moment, even in that moment, the one thing that we both have in common is we care about this issue. I can find some way of connecting with you on that. I might say I disagree. I think communication is absolutely important. But the fact is we both believe that this is an issue we should be discussing.

And that gives me a place where we begin to collaborate. So part of the mindset shift is looking for that opportunity. Where can I connect with somebody? And then the other part of the mindset has to do with the wonderful work of Carol Dweck. She's a colleague at Stanford, really about growth mindset. When it comes to communication, especially spontaneous communication, many of us feel like we either have it or we don't. You're either born with the gift of gab or you don't.

And that's not true. We can all learn it. Just like an athlete, just like a musician. if you work at it, you can learn to do it and do it better. So Carol's work on growth mindset, part of that which I really adore is this notion of not yet. Carol likes to talk about if something doesn't work for you, it doesn't mean you're incapable, doesn't mean it's not possible. It just means not yet.

And then you can begin to think about what can I do to actualize this, to make it happen. So mindset plays a huge role. If you manage anxiety, see it as an opportunity, realize it's a skill you, can develop, then you're set to really help yourself with the in the moment messaging that you do. So one of the things on mindset that you do is you talk about mistakes. Yeah. So I have a framing of mistakes. So, you know, many of us get really down about the mistakes we make. And in fact, mistakes, as we have all heard, are the ways we learn. We learn through what doesn't go the way we expected. So I like to reframe a mistake as a mistake.

You know in film and television, they have that clapboard where they say take one, take two. And each take is where a director is asking the actors and actresses to do the scene slightly differently. So no one's scene is wrong or bad. We're just looking for a different way of doing it. So when I do something or something doesn't go the way I expect, instead of saying to myself, oh, my goodness, I did it wrong, I'm bad, I should have practiced more. I just say take two. Let's try it again.

and sometimes that means I repeat myself in a different way. Other times it means I catalog it and say the next time I have to do that or say that, I'm going to look at it a little differently. When we do this, all of a sudden, it takes the fangs out of the error or what we didn't like and actually makes it empowering. Okay, I can do it again. Take two, take three, however many it takes. So I really like looking at those errors as opportunities and by framing it as a mistake.

it really helps me get through that. That makes all the sense in the world because when we are stuck in the, it was a mistake and I'm lousy and I'll never get good at this or we're not able to learn. Right. Right. And that's what we have to do. You said one of the keys is you've got to be able to reflect. So, all right, I miss that take.

Okay. Pause for a second. Okay. What would I do? You know, all right, what am I going to do in the next take? That's correct. That's correct. And sometimes it's appropriate to make the adjustment in the moment.

And other times it's just catalog it and next time I'll do it. All right. So I want to pivot to we've been talking about speaking. But any part of a conversation, as we've said, should be a back and forth thing. Talk to me about listening. Yeah. Listening is critical in communication. It is so interesting that we teach public speaking, but we don't teach public listening.

And we really should. Listening is critical. And the reality is most of us don't listen well. Now, I have to come clean with you, Eric. My wife gets really upset with me when I talk about and teach listening skills because she says I'm still a work in progress. And I would agree. I need to work on it. Most of us listen just for the top line, not the bottom line.

So once I get the gist of what you're saying, I begin rehearsing, evaluating, judging, planning my response. In fact, we have to listen more deeply. There's so much subtlety and nuance in what gets communicated that can impact how we respond. So I like to tell people to listen for the bottom line. And the best way to practice, I believe, is listen as if you will paraphrase. Paraphrasing is not where you pair it back word for word what somebody has said. That's what a five-year-old does and it's annoying. Instead, I'm looking for what's the key bottom line of what you've said.

What's the crux of what you're saying? And as I'm listening, that forces me to listen in a much more detailed, deep way. And sometimes I'll actually speak the paraphrase to validate. I heard what you said and you can clarify, or to just validate you when you're in a conversation and you show that you listen, not just by nodding your head and saying, uh-huh, uh-huh, but literally saying, here's what I heard you say in your own words. It does wonderful things for relationships. It brings people closer together. It builds trust, builds deeper connection. So when you listen to paraphrase, you train your brain to listen more deeply.

So we can practice. You know, any one of your listeners to this show, at the end of each episode, can just paraphrase, what was the central idea? Or in any conversation or a meeting where you're not the one speaking, just paraphrase. What was key with what that person said? When you practice paraphrasing, you're practicing listening, and it is a wonderful skill, not only to deepen relationships, but paraphrasing is a very useful communication tool. I love that idea. Don't listen for the top line, listen for the bottom line, because I do that a lot.

Someone will start talking. I will get the top line. And I'll be like, all right, I know where this goes. Jenny and I joke, I'm like, why use 20 words when you could use two? And she's like, why use two words if you could be you 20, right? Like, we're just very different in our style. Right. What that leads to for me is me sometimes just going, oh, well, all right, I got the gist of it.

Now she's just going, she's going to go on. Right. But thinking of the bottom line allows me to stay with it more. And you're right. More does unfold if I'm paying attention. That's right. You did an excellent paraphrase there, by the way. So good, good on you. Good on you. I'm a good paraphraser. I'll take the last five minutes of conversation and try and sum it up in like one little thing. The three P's that impede listening. What makes this hard? Yeah. So there are a lot of things that conspire to make listening difficult, right, besides our tendency to listen just to the top line. So the three P's, physical noise. So they all have to do with noise. Noise is the enemy. of the, let me start over. The three P's represent three different types of noise. Noise is the

enemy of the F word of communication, and it's not the naughty F word. It's fidelity. The goal of most communication is fidelity, accuracy and clarity. Noise gets in the way. They're inversely related. As noise goes up, fidelity goes down. So the three major types of noise, I'll start with the letter P, physical, psychological, and physiological. Physical noise. We have all been in a situation where it's just loud. It's hard for me to hear. And the older I get, the more of these environments exist.

Psychological noise is all of my judgment, my evaluation, my desires that filter in as you're speaking. And that gets in the way. So I get caught up on, oh, that was stupid for him to say that or that was silly to do. And then I'm not really present. And then finally, physiological noise, if I'm tired, if I'm hungry, if I'm nervous, if I'm hangary, all of that gets in the way of my ability to be present and to listen. So part of the way we become better listeners is to focus on the bottom line. But the other way is we try to reduce these three P's.

Get yourself into an environment that's quiet. Make sure you're psychologically focused and able to focus. Make sure you've taken care of yours, just fundamental. hygiene. You're not hungry, thirsty, et cetera. And then you're in a position to listen better. So you have a framework for listening better that you say, pace, space, and grace. I love a good rhyme. Yes, assonance is great. So yes. So how do we get ourselves into that place to be present? And I learned this from a colleague of mine at Stanford's Business School. His name's Collins Dobbs. And he applies pace space grace to challenging conversations. And as he and I were talking one day, I said, these same

principles will help people be better listeners because it forces them or invites them to be more present. So let me walk through each. Many of us are very busy. Life is hectic. We've got lots going on in our minds racing around. If we slow down, physically slow down, sit down, not walking, not moving around. Slow the pace down and slow your mind down. You can be more present. So consciously focusing on the pace of the interaction. Second, you have to give yourself space. Again, physical space, put yourself in a place where you can be present, but more importantly, mental space.

Clear the decks. If you know you've got a big stressful meeting coming up next, maybe have the important conversation after the meeting. Give yourself that space. And then finally, grace, grace to know that you may or may not get it right, but you're going to try. And grace to listen not just to what is said, but be able to. the words, how it's said, where it said. So with a little bit of pace, space, grace, you allow yourself

to be present. And being present turns down the volume on all three of those different types of noise and allows you to listen for the bottom line. So all of those aspects fold together. Pace, space grace puts you in the place where you can be present, less noise, and listen to the bottom line. So let's talk about the psychological noise because in any sort of conversation that is charged or important, the psychological may not be the big meeting that's coming up next or it may not be my children. I mean, maybe it is, right? But it might very well be what that person just said. Yeah. And so one of the things that I've observed and I would love to hear your thoughts on this is that like good listening for me means, yes, I'm definitely giving that person a lot of

a lot of my attention, most of my attention. But I have to keep some of it turned inward. Yes. I have to keep some of it because otherwise these psychological reactions, the noise is there, but I'm not really aware of it. I'm not focused on it. So it was a paradigm change for me to think like it's not just only listening to the other person.

I have to listen to myself a little bit too. There's an image that Carol Robin, who is a colleague, but also was on my show Think Fast Talk Smart, she talks about, and this really helps me, Eric. I'm a visual person. She said, whenever we're listening and communicating, we have two antenna. One is turned towards the person. The other has to be turned towards ourselves. And that balance you're talking about is so essential. But we have to listen as the internal, listening to our internal response, as a curious observer rather than getting so. so immersed in what is happening inside ourselves. Not to say that we shouldn't do that, but at first, in order to really do the other, have the other antenna focused, we have to just be a curious observer. Oh, that's interesting.

When he said that, I noticed I got a little tense. That's interesting versus, oh, he's pissing me off because he said that. So we need to be listening, have both antenna working, but when it comes to the internal listening, curious observer at first,

so that we can be more present with the other antenna listening to what the other person is saying. Yeah, that's a great distinction. And it is a little tricky to do that. It's a little bit, I compare it to like doing interviews like this because a huge part of my focus is on what you're actually saying. Yes. But some of my focus has to be on where are we going next? That's right. And what else do we, you know, and ideally that just all happens seamlessly. But there's a skill to that. And I think there's the same thing. There's the skill to be able to hear the person while having some internal attention in the way you described. Because it often seems like I can have one or two of those antenna working, right?

And you can develop that skill. One, I think you do a great job as a podcast host. But I believe moderating or doing what you're doing right now, interviewing, I believe that's the hardest communication skill. Because you're having to manage so much simultaneously. and yet it can be learned. It is a skill. It is a skill that can be learned and it can be practiced. But it is hard.

You know, I hosted a show for six years. You've done this for a long time. I think you would agree with me. You get better at it the more you do it. Yeah. And you can learn these skills. I am a far better interviewer today than I was when I started. I still have a long way to go.

But this repetition, reflection, and feedback is how we get better. People say, you're so good at that. I'm like, I have been doing it. for like 11 years. If I wasn't good at it, it would be something wrong with me at this point. Yeah. No, I mean, like anything, you have to practice. And, you know, people who are really expert at a skill, one thing I've noticed is, one, there tends to be a little bit of humility, but also they realize how much more they can improve. You know, experts will always tell them, oh, there's so much more I can do. And so I think that's a good sign that you've been doing

something for a while and you're continuing to work to get better at it. Okay. I'm going to move to the part of the book that was most helpful to me. And it was all about structures. One of my favorite phrases in life that I use a lot is structure liberates. Now, I use it in a different context than you, but put that now into communication. Yeah, absolutely. So many of us, when we have to communicate on the spot or planned, we simply list and itemize information. Here's everything I've got, blah, and put it out there in front of you. The problem is our brains are not wired to process lists of information. In fact, Eric, when you go to the grocery store, how many items do you need to buy before you have to write it down so you don't forget? If you're like me, it's three.

I was going to say two. Yeah, exactly. Every one. I get to the grocery. What? What am I here? What am I here? We're just not good with lists. Yet when many of us communicate, that's what we provide. Yet we know from neuroscience that our brains process structured information more fluently. A structure is nothing more than a logical connection of ideas, a beginning, a middle, and an end. We all know structure. Now, we might not know we know structure, but we know it. I'll give you a classic example. If you have ever watched a television advertisement, you have seen a structure. Most TV ads are in the structure of problem, solution, benefit. There's some issue or challenge in the world. The product or service the company sells helps fix that, and you benefit in some way. I don't

care if you're selling cars. I don't care if you're selling medicines, alcohol. Most follow this structure. The structure provides a logical connection. You transition and move from one point to the next. Our brains are wired to learn information through structure. So if you can develop structures that work for you, it helps because in any communication, you have two fundamental tasks, what to say and how to say it. Structure tells you how to say it. It's like a recipe. I am a lousy cook, Eric. You do not want to eat anything. that I cook. I'm a pretty good baker, but not a chef. I am only made better by using a recipe. By following a recipe, it gives you an order. Now, that doesn't mean everything you say sounds the

same. It just means that there's a direction to it. My favorite structure in the whole world is three simple questions. What? So what. Now what. What? So what, now what? What is the information you're conveying? So what is why is it important or relevant to the person you're speaking to? And now what explains how somebody can use whatever you've said in the future. So if I'm giving an update in a meeting, let's say my boss turns to me and says, hey, Matt, give me an update. I didn't plan to give an update. I didn't know I was doing it. I don't have a slide deck, haven't practiced. I would just say, here's what I've been doing. Here's why it's important to our goals and KPIs. And here's what we're going to do next in some of the contingencies in the way. I just answered

what, so what, now what. And you can use this structure for lots of other communication situations, answering questions, giving feedback, explaining things. But having a structure not only is like a recipe, it's a roadmap. It gives you how do it get from here and take my audience to there. So structure can be very powerful. I'm curious. You said it was very helpful for you. In what way did thinking about your communication through the lens of structure help you?

I tend to be really comfortable in just improvising when I'm asked a question. Like you talk in the book about some people don't like the, Q&A after. Yeah, I love the Q&A after. It's my favorite place. That's awesome. Now, some of that is I've, I've learned to, like, welcome questions that are hard because that shows me where I don't understand something. Yeah. But I love it. And I think I'm naturally really good at it. However, I do think that sometimes I get a little rambly, or I'd circle back on a point that we've already hit. And I think structure could allow me to move through it in a clear way that makes it a little bit more concise, a little briefer, and a little less circuitous.

Yeah, and many people cite all of those reasons as why structure is helpful to them. And again, it comes down to a choice. There are times if I'm having a passionate conversation with a friend and deep thinking top on a deep thinking topic, I might not care if it's structure and package. but there are certain situations where it's really important. So I liken it to somebody who goes to the gym and just exercises one set of muscles, right? You need to exercise everything because otherwise, one, you'll be out of proportion and you can actually hurt yourself. You could be at a disadvantage if some muscles are really strong and others aren't.

So we need to be able to have a free-flowing, less structured conversation, communication, but we also need to know how to make it clear, concise, and responsive to the need. of the moment. And that's why training these structures can be really helpful. And there are myriad structures, you know, problem solution benefit, what so what, now what, past, present, future, comparison, contrast, conclusion, many, many structures. I don't care which ones you use. Just practice and be able to leverage a structure. All right. We're going to do a little experiment here because you recommend this in your book and I'm going to do it to you. Great. You recommend going to some Google random question generator.

Yeah. Or AI. It does the same thing. And I'm going to read you the question. I want you to reply and then tell me the structure you used. Good? Absolutely. We'll do so.

What was your best birthday? When I was 11, my family took me to, I live in Northern California. We went to the Winchester Mystery House. Sarah Winchester built this house that she had lots of superstitions and lots of concerns. And so the house has, it's like a maze, doors that opened to nothing, closets and things. And it was such an adventure and so much fun. And it's something that I think all of us as that time of our lives when we're 11 on the precipice of teenage years, curiosity, exploring, a little bit of being devious. It was just absolutely excellent.

So I encourage anybody who is planning a birthday for a kid at that age, think about ways to give them exploration, curiosity, and ultimately an experience that they can remember. So in that answer, I leveraged a different structure. It's a structure I teach for Q&A skills. It's called ADD, answer, detailed example, describe the relevance or value. So I gave the answer, Winchester Mystery House. I gave detailed example. It was a house built by Sarah Winchester, had all these doors that opened.

to nothing, lots of exploration. So you can almost see it in your minds all. And then I explain the relevance. Why is this important? Well, young kids like to, I did relevance at two levels. Young kids like to explore. And for parents who are planning birthdays, this is an interesting thing for you to think about. So answer, detailed example, describe the relevance. So if you were to ask me, if you were to pretend you were interviewing me for the job I have, I teach at Stanford's business school. You might say, you know, tell me about your experience. I would say I have over 25 years of experience teaching. I've taught at the undergraduate graduate level as well as in the corporate world. What that means is I can tailor my material to be very specific to your students'

needs. That's just another example of APE that's a little clearer. So you can take the same structure, answer two very different types of questions. I didn't know the question you were going to ask me about the birthdays, but I knew how I was going to answer it. And that made me feel very comfortable. Are there other ways I could have answered it? Sure, but in this moment, I chose to use that way. So did you choose that structure, ADD, in advance? Or do you get asked a question? I mean, because that was lightning fast. So in that moment, you did two things really quickly. One was you picked a structure. Yeah. And two, you have to have reflected on your best birthday. Because if you ask me that question, you're going to get about four minutes of silence while I try and see if I can

remember any birthday. Well, so two things there to that. So let me answer your question. Let me, let me share a little bit more. So in that moment, as soon as you ask the question, I know several different structures. And I thought to myself, ADD makes a lot of sense here. Instead of thinking about the world of possibilities of my birthdays, and I've had some amazing birthdays, the first thing that came into my mind was that, partly because I'm looking out of a window that's a nice day here. And I reminded me of the nice day that that was the weather. When we're put on the spot, we need to just commit and go forward. The self-doubt, the rumination, is this really the best birthday? Should I say something closer to my age today? What does it mean

when I talk about being 11? You know, so if I do all that, I'm paralyzed. Instead, I just made a commitment. 11-year-old, Winchester Mystery House, ADD, and then I can go. If it doesn't go well, take two. I can share with you my 50th birthday. That was a lot of fun too, right? So it's about making a choice and having the tools at the ready with whatever choice you make. Before we wrap up, I want you to think about this. Have you ever ended the day feeling like your choices didn't quite match the person you wanted to be? Maybe it was autopilot mode or self-doubt that made it harder to stick to your goals. And that's exactly why I created the six saboteurs of self-control. It's a free guide to help you recognize the hidden patterns that

hold you back and give you simple, effective strategies to break through them. If you're ready to take back control and start making lasting changes, download your copy now at one you feed.net slash ebook. Let's make those shifts happen starting today. One you feed.net slash ebook. So if you are going to leave people who are listening to this with one core idea, what would that be? I'm going to cheat. I'm going to give you two. one core ideas. At the highest level, we can all get better at our communication. Many people feel disempowered from their communication. They've had things not go well. They just feel nervous and they feel like that. I just, I'm not a good communicator. And I know lots of people like that. I have worked with

hundreds, thousands of people by now and help people improve communication. We can all hone in development. So at the highest level, you can always improve your communication. It takes time. It takes effort. At a very practical, tactical level, when you are communicating, remind yourself you are in service of your audience. It is not about you. It is about them. Everything we've talked about have been tools to help you better serve your audience. Managing anxiety makes it less awkward for the person I'm communicating to. Listening, make sure I am responsive to their needs. Having a structure means I package the message in a way they can better distill and remember it. So being in service of your audience is essential.

That's what communication is all about. So those would be my two, one critical thing to take away. Wonderful. Well, Matt, thank you so much for joining us on the show. I've really enjoyed this conversation. And I got a lot of benefit out of the book. And I think I'm a pretty good communicator. As you said, there's always more to learn.

Thank you. Absolutely, Eric. Thank you. And thank you for the good work you do. The information you bring and the way in which you do it is so helpful. Thank you so much for listening to the show. If you found this conversation helpful, inspiring, or thought-provoking, I'd love for you to share it with a friend. Sharing from one person to another is the lifeblood of what we do.

We don't have a big budget, and I'm certainly not a celebrity, but we have something even better, and that's you. Just hit the share button on your podcast app or send a quick text with the episode link to someone who might enjoy it. Your support means the world, and together we can spread wisdom one episode at a time. you for being part of the One You Feed community.