The One You Feed - Ruth King on Healing Racism

Episode Date: November 7, 2018

Ruth King is an emotional wisdom author, coach, and consultant. She's a guiding teacher at Insight Meditation Community of Washington and she's on the teacher's council at Spirit Rock Meditation Center. In addition, she's the founder of Mindful Members Insight Meditation Community in Charlotte, NC. She has a Master's Degree in Clinical Psychology and is the author of several publications including her new book, Mindful of Race: Transforming Racism from the Inside Out. In this stirring, thoughtful and wise conversation, she touches on the heart of racism and teaches how we can move to heal this heart disease.Get Ad-Free Episodes and More Ancestry DNA - more detailed in the different regions globally- www.ancestry.com/wolf get your kit for $59Casper - you spend 1/3 of your life sleeping so you need to be sleeping on the right mattress that's comfortable for you. Casper mimics the shape of your body. Affordable because it cuts out the middleman and sells direct to you www.casper.com/oneyoufeed promo code oneyoufeed get $50 towards select mattresses In This Interview, Ruth King and I Discuss...Her book, Mindful of Race: Transforming Racism From The Inside OutThe value of being curious about the good and bad wolves inside of usRacism being a heart disease that is curableHer open heart surgery at the age of 27Rage being an exit routeRage being energy moving through the bodyHabitual patterns of racism being a layer on top of the real issue that we can't tolerate - they are defense mechanismsRacial affinity groups6 hindrancesThe structure of racismRacism vs PrejudiceRacist vs RacismUnderstanding our own experience with racism and talking about itWhat it's like to be "membered"Individual vs group identityDiversity within the body of colorRuth King LinksHomepageFacebook Please support the show with a donationSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I work with the bad wolf, so to speak, in a way that is not making it wrong because the minute I make it wrong, it has to act out more to get my attention. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true.

And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. I'm Jason Alexander.

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Our guest on this episode is Ruth King, an emotional wisdom author, coach, and consultant. She's a guiding teacher at Insight Meditation Community of Washington. She's also on the teacher's council at Spirit Rock Meditation Center and is the founder of Mindful Members Insight Meditation Community in Charlotte, North Carolina. Ruth has a master's degree in clinical psychology from John F. Kennedy University and is the author of several publications, including her new book, Mindful of Race, Transforming Racism from the Inside Out. And here's the interview with Ruth King. Hi, Ruth. Welcome to the show. Thank you. It's lovely to be here. I am happy to have you on. Your book is called Mindful of Race, Transforming Racism from the

Inside Out. And I'm looking forward to sharing the book with the listeners. But let's start like we always do with the parable. There's a grandmother who's talking with her grandson. She says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and thinks about it for a second and looks up at his grandmother. And he says, well, grandmother, which one wins? And the grandmother says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the

work that you do. Well, it's a beautiful parable. I've heard many versions of it. And the one I'm remembering is from the Cherokee tribe. It's a grandfather talking to a grandson, but you know how these things go. We turn it around. You know, they go through like the can listening and they come up with different versions. So I don't know what it is, but the point of it is so powerful. And what it means to me, especially lately, is that the polarity of the good one and the bad one, you know, is really both coming from our mind. So part of what I'm really sensitive to at this time in my life is really befriending both the good and the bad thoughts or, you know, beliefs and things that race through our mind and not being attached to

one being better than the other because they all come and go with regularity. You know, I work with the bad wolf, so to speak, in a loving way, in a way that is not making it wrong because the minute I make it wrong, it has to act out more to get my attention. But when I welcome it and sit with it and become more curious about what the disturbance is and how it's running through my mind, heart, and body, just like how the good thoughts and beautiful things run through my body, I have to develop a tolerance for that also, because sometimes I can have an allergic reaction to good things and want to move through that quickly. But mostly what I'm doing these days in my life is holding both in my heart with a sense of curiosity and non-attachment. That curiosity is so important.

Yeah, I think it's important because without it, we're just on automatic pilot, right? We're just like believing our thoughts and moving through the world like it's absolute and then separating the good and the bad wolf becomes externalized and we see good and bad people and good and bad cultures and good and bad races. And we don't get to understand this subtlety of mind that is projecting on what arises in our view and our consciousness. So I think it's a good calling, especially when the good and bad are extreme. You know, that's when we get gripped the most, you know, to really back up a little bit and just gentle, be a bit gentle and curious about how the experience is being lived

in the heart, body and mind. And just to relax with that in it without taking action, without feeling like you got to go do something. Just really feeling into this thing, these two wolves, and maybe having them have a conversation with each other. You know, when the bad wolf thoughts come up, we can call in the good wolf to kind of... Talk some sense into that guy. That's how I'm working with that. So you say that racism is a heart disease. Explain what you mean with that. So you say that racism is a heart disease. Explain what you mean by that.

Well, it's rooted in my having open heart surgery at the age of 27, where I realized that so much of what I had been doing up to that point was just really running around in righteous rage. My first book was about rage, you know, and, you know, being so right in the world about how I felt and saw who was wrong and the racist this and that. And I didn't realize how to be with my upset. And before I knew it, because of a hyperactive thyroid diagnosis, I had had a hyperthyroid that had gone undiagnosed for many years, which enlarged my heart, which contributed to the need to have open heart surgery for a mitral valve prolapse. And in the course of this surgical procedure, I became aware that it was more a spiritual intervention that was suggesting to me that I needed to reevaluate

how I went about living my life, which up to that point had just been righteous rage run amok. And it was in the recovery of the heart surgery that I got in touch with how matters of the heart was really my work in the world to do. And so it took a while for me to realize what that actually meant lived out loud. But I often say to people that the recovery from the heart surgery was my first silent retreat because I got a chance to really listen to how much hate I was embodying. And a lot of it was wrapped around race. The rage was wrapped around race. And my body was just riddled with such upset that I needed to vacate the premises. And I vacated the premises using rage as an exit route until I couldn't do that anymore. And then I had to thaw out. I thawed out into a realization that I had to make a different deal with the

disturbance I was in. And that it required tenderness, that it required a lot of care, that it required me befriending the upset, the bad wolf, if you will, in a loving way. And in the course of that, I stepped into mindfulness meditation and that became a real tool for me being able to sit with the upset in a loving way and to hold it and see it as energy moving through the body, as beliefs that I didn't loud to me about how race is so entangled with the heart and matters of the heart that I call it, you know, a heart disease, a global heart disease. And it's curable through our awareness, through our care, and through this kind of tenderizing or gentling that I talk about that's so important as medicine that supports us and being able to tolerate this conversation, being able to keep our heart

engaged when we're having this conversation. It just requires a lot of love, basically. So I bring that to this phrase of racism is a hard disease and it's curable. It's not easy. It's messy as hell, but it is possible to transform internally that shifts our view and shifts our relationship to our understanding of what race and racism is. our understanding of what race and racism is. You talk about early on that when any of us, people of color or non, hear the word racism or we start to think about it, something happens. You say, you know, we get alarmed. And then whether we're conscious of it or not, we tend to go to our weapons of choice, which each of us have. You know, you mentioned aggression in your case or hatred, you know, distraction, denial, doubt, worry, depression, indifference. I really like that summary to realize that how that word triggers all of us. And we all have habitual patterns

of how we think about it. And that for all of us, our habitual pattern doesn't serve us as well as it could, or doesn't serve us as well as a pattern that is more current, let's say that. Yeah, because a habitual pattern is oftentimes a layer on top of what the real deal is that we're experiencing, that we can't tolerate, by the way. So it's a defense mechanism. And I think that after a while, if we're really interested in deepening our understanding of this topic, we have to be willing to step into that zone

of what's underneath our habituation, our habits, and really understand it and then be willing to kind of let it go, you know, or move it to the side so that we can see a bigger picture and entertain a bigger story about what this is about. One of the most striking parts of the book for me was this idea that you bring up. And I'll just read what you say. A common disconnection between people of color and whites is that the former tend to experience the world through group identity, whereas the latter tend to experience the world through individual identity. the world through individual identity. White people generally think of themselves as well-meaning, hardworking individuals, unaware of themselves as a racial group. And boy, did that really strike me and hit home. And you go on to say that part of white privilege is the ability to identify or not identify racially, whereas people of color, it's not really that case. That racial identity is

so strong. It's part of the world that you swim in. And as white people, we can choose to either be a part of being white or distance ourselves from being white. And I just thought that was very profound. I had never thought of that before in quite that way. Oh, yes. That's one of the most common and painful ways that we miss each other when we try to have a conversation. You know, white people come to the conversation in this certain innocence and an individual, you know, I'm a good person. And I didn't do anything. I wasn't living in that time I'm here now, you know as if there's no rude rootedness and the history the lineage of the people the collective people or that we've been touched by our lives and

The in the generations of people that helped us get here And whereas people of color are aware being good individuals as well as being racial identity groups, because part of being a subordinated group, racial group in this country know, a poor person, the dynamic of subordination is that what groups us together is that we share oppression. And dominant groups, whether it's white people, or it's men, or it's heterosexuals, or it's Christians, I mean, there's a lot of, you know, those categories. The characteristic of dominance is that you don't have to look. You just don't have to look at yourself as a group because you just don't have to. And so you don't. But this is particularly painful when we're talking about race. It's kind of the piece that will support what I believe will be a transformation around this conversation. When white people get together with other white people and explore the territory of whiteness

that every other race seems to know a bit about, but them. And what this means is that I work with a lot of white people that are in what I refer to as racial affinity groups. And it's so difficult for them because they talk about, you know, we get together and I don't feel anything and I'm bored and we don't have anything to talk about. And, you know, and the tendency is to go off and join a cause or to have other people of color educating you about what's needed, how do we fix it. But there's a lot of avoidance among white people to talk about whiteness. And I think that's a very interesting place to begin this journey. අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden.

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We've had Austin Channing Brown on the podcast, and I'm trying to have more of these conversations as a way of trying to engage in that debate in a useful and healthy way. Tell me about a little bit more, tell the listeners, because I know, because I read the book, about racial affinity groups, because that was a very interesting idea that I had not really heard of. And the book spends a fair amount of time talking not only about what they are, which you're going to tell us, but also how to have one. Yeah. I just want to have that concept out there in listeners' ears if it's something they're interested in. Very good. Well, first of all, you know, it's important to understand these six hindrances that I talk about in the book so that there is something to get our arms around and discuss within the racial affinity group. So there's some education we need

about the structure of racism that's in our social realm. There's a structure to it that we can begin to recognize and not only see out there, but see our relationship to it. And when we have that kind of curiosity that's alive in us, forming a racial affinity group would be a simple process of getting together with from two to five other people of your same race. And actually with white people, I would say with your same gender, because sometimes white people get together and it's mixed gendered. The issues that white women have with white men tends to trump the discussion around race and it becomes more of the upsets around gender. So to minimize that, I say, you know, white men get together, white women get together, however that goes, you know,

biracial people get together and just come together, commit for a year to meet once a month for about two and a half hours. And what you're doing in this racial affinity group, and what I'm offering is a mindfulness practice of getting yourself still and stable together. So there's a guided meditation that you would begin with. And then there's a series of about 35 or 40 questions that you would answer over the course of the year. And what these questions are, are they're inviting us to look at our conditioning, look at our beliefs, look at our longings, look at what's unfinished that we're still carrying, talking about the oops and ouches and those places of embarrassment and shame with each other

so it's really teasing through these these kind of tender zones where you've been conditioned to believe certain things and looking at your anger and whatever it might be that can come up it's it's a structure that supports us and having a place where we can engage this topic. So when white people, for example, form racial affinity groups, one of the beautiful things about it, because I also suggest people of color forming racial affinity groups. But when white people learn about whiteness, it takes the weight off of people of color educating them about whiteness. There's certain things that white people can do on their own. But, you know, habitually, you know, so many white people that I meet don't even think

about race unless a person of color brings it up. I'm suggesting you think about race and you commit to your own engagement in education. There's loads of resources out there around whiteness, you know, for white people. You know, if you don't have to look at those resources, you won't. But I'm encouraging a structure of tenderness and care where there can be a mindful, an intentional, compassionate looking at our conditioning around race so that we can soften and forgive and open our awareness to see something beyond what's often fear and shame that kind of closes the lens and the heart closes along with it. So the racial affinity groups are just a crucial part, I think, because it provides a structure for us to

investigate our conditioning and work with that in a very intentional way. And when we don't have a structure, we tend to just not go there. We just can easily go back into amnesia or we can just work, you know, think our thoughts are all there is. And so I think it's very helpful. It's been said to be very helpful for people. Wonderful. Let's talk for a minute about, you know, in order to understand the dynamics of racial, you call it dominance and subordination, we have to look at group habits of harm rather than looking solely at individual acts or single incidents. And I thought that was so another very helpful way to think about this is, again, as a white person, Another very helpful way to think about this is, again, as a white person, I'm familiar with the concept of, well, I'm a good person or I wasn't there or, you know, I'm looking at individual actions.

And you're talking about looking at habits of harm. And you use a great metaphor for this around stars and constellations. Could you share that with us? Yes. The stars and the constellations are one of the six hindrances that's important for us to look at. The first one we've talked about a bit, which is around the white individual as a good person. That's the first hindrance. But the second one is the stars and the constellations, and it goes with individual versus group. Now, all of these hindrances have to do with racial group dynamics, not so much individual acts. So the stars and the constellations are inviting us to

notice for ourselves, and we can all do this, the habits that we tend to have around how we view racial harm. So one of the ways I describe this is when Michael Brown was killed in Ferguson, there was a group of us here in Charlotte that got together, a mixed group, to talk about the killing. The video was showed and we were all asked to talk about what we saw and how we felt. And there was a white guy in our small group of about four or five people who spoke very passionately and sincerely about how, you know, that man should have never killed that boy and left him in the streets. And this is horrible. And I'm just really upset. And he was shaking and trembling and crying. And he was telling his story. He saw a star. His description of what he saw is what I would call a star,

a single incident described in the situation. When I talked about what I saw, I said something like, I can't believe that once again, a white police officer has killed an unarmed black person. And this has just gone on way too long. And I named several of the people that have been killed. And I was describing a constellation. And I think this is another way that we miss each other. And because of what we bring to the table and how we've been conditioned to see. So, you know, the white guy that spoke saw an individual incident. It wasn't even colorized in the description and the language that he used. It wasn't like a white man or a black man. It was that man should have never killed that boy. Well, to me, it was very textured.

And it's because of the ways, because of the pattern I see, the tattoo that's out there, the repetitive motion injury, the chronicness of this situation. It's a big dipper. It's a comic in the, you know, in the constellations. So to me, it's useful if we're not just seeing

single incidents because it doesn't have the gravity. It lacks an understanding of the gestalt, of the broader pain that's repetitive out there. So I think that's a difference also in looking at it from an individual lens and also from a racial group identity lens that you're part of a group. An individual wouldn't see all these things. They would just see the single incident. Another example of this is when people talk about all lives matter as opposed to black lives matter. All lives matter is an individual view. We're all important. Black lives matter is speaking to a constellation.

So these are things we can begin to open our hearts and minds to, to see that it's not just a solo incident. It's the patterning that we want to bring some attention to and open to. Yeah. It makes me think of something that you wrote in the book that really was touching. And you said, you're talking about a Dharma talk you gave. And you said, I ended with this. The next time you hear of a brown person being killed by anyone, stay present and say to yourself, oh my, another of Ruth's children has been killed, then check in with your own heart to determine the appropriate response. Yeah. That's, that's how I move in the world as a, as a body,

as a woman, you know, as a lesbian, as a author, as a great grandmother, you know, I'm concerned about these constellations of harm, uh, towards the bodies of color And, you know, and there's probably harm within the white body as well, but we're looking at the dominant and subordinated dynamic here. But I don't want to overlook the fact that we all have experiences of suffering and harm. Terminology question for you here. I was talking with someone recently who said that, well, it was my son, who said that only white people in this country can be racist because racism indicates a system of oppression. Now, everybody's prejudiced, but that racism is speaking to this, you know, constellation of harm that we're talking about, or this system of oppression.

Do you use the same terminology? Yeah, you know, I want to meet your son. Well, he's not too far away. I told you he's in North Carolina. He really speaks to this, you know, the younger generation, too, maybe that's coming up that seems to be, you know, have their fingers in a lot of these pots. And I think I think it's good news. But, yes. So I very seldom use the word racist because racist is a word that speaks to individual actions. And, you know, so it's at the individual level. Certainly people can have racist behavior depending on what they're doing at the individual level. But racism is at the institutional level. It's at the group and beyond level. beyond level. Racism, I associate very much with policies, practices, social norms,

political systems, when the dominant system is white. White supremacy is an expression of racism in the sense of its intentionality. The alt-right movements, the, you know, white nationalist movements that are concerned about staying on top are examples of racism, racist intention rather. But racism in our social structure is when it becomes institutionalized. It becomes normal that we see Black folks killed with regularity. You know, it's normal that most of black folks killed with regularity. You know, it's normal that most of the people in in our social context, their norms, practices, policies, blind assumptions, you know, a police institution and the habitual pulling of the trigger. You know, and racism is not something I think we all need to try to avoid recognizing or associating with. I think it's something we need to, you know, kind of embrace and be curious about, because if we're afraid of being a racist or being a part of a racist system, being being a part of racism, then it's very hard to, you know, we're ashamed of that. It's very hard to investigate it, to really understand it more deeply.

of that is very hard to investigate it, to really understand it more deeply. But yeah, it's part of, it's more of a collective dynamic and reality in our social realm. You know, who do you see on television most when you turn on the news? Who's got positions of power most when you look at, when you go to your doctor? Who are most of the lawyers? You know, you can see the economic influence of it as well as the cultural piece. But I associate racism with culture and with the ways that norms and practices and policies and beliefs are embedded in the social fabric that we all are breathing that air and swimming in that water together. Thank you. You know, I think one of the reasons that people tend to avoid things, whether it be common run-of-the-mill procrastination, like my task list, or bigger things, is when things feel way too big to tackle. You know, when something feels overwhelming, our tendency is to walk the other direction. And when we talk about race in the sense of a racist, a person, you think, well, if we could

just get that person to change how they feel, well, that feels like, okay, I could step up to the plate there. When we start talking about this racism as this overwhelming, you know, the water that we swim in, how do people not, you know, I even feel it in myself when I start to think about all of that. I go, oh, sheesh, that's, you know, I can think about changing a heart or two, right? So what's your reaction to that? Well, I think it's a really good question and a common one. And I think we have to start with changing our own hearts because I think that's really the fundamental ground of waking up around this. Again, that's why I talk about it as transforming from the inside out, because that's where we get in touch very intimately with the mechanism of changing our habits.

And this is where a mindfulness practice can be most helpful, because it allows you to sit with what's involved in softening into opening up. in softening into opening up. You know, when we get ourselves still, when we set our intention, hey, I'm gonna take this on. I'm gonna give this some real daily time. I'm gonna be paying attention to my habits, to my thoughts around race.

I'm gonna be involved in a racial affinity group for support and to know I'm not in this alone. I'm not going to commit to doing a bunch of actions just yet. I'm going to give myself a few months just to be with my own kind of unfolding and awareness around this. So I think that's a place that we begin. place that we begin. And I also, you know, I coach a lot of educators and meditation teachers and dorma teachers. And one of the things I say to them, and these are, a lot of them are white. And one of the things I say to them, if you're doing your own investigation around race, if you're bringing it and dropping it right into the seat of your mindfulness practice, if you're bringing it and dropping it right into the seat of your mindfulness practice,

when you're bringing that disturbance in, all that confusion, all of that anxiety, whatever it is, and you're dropping it into your practice, then you have some stories to tell about how that's going for you, right? And when you have some stories to tell, that's really all you need to be telling, you know, in terms of working with other people. Of course, there's the institutional level of joining organizations and, you know, how you vote and all of that. But I think at the interpersonal level, we don't have to change anybody. We just need to maybe begin to understand our own experience and talk about it. to maybe begin to understand our own experience and talk about it. You know, I think for white people, it's a good use of privilege to talk about race and how you're working with understanding your race. You know, it's a good use for you to have me on this show to be exploring this

discussion. I worked with a guy that was in a high position in a bank. And when the devastation happened in Florida with the floods, he rented three trucks and called a bunch of his friends, most of whom he worked with. And they went down there to help clear out some some of the homes. Right. Helping people that. I'm Jasonason alexander and i'm peter tilden and together on the really no really podcast our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor we got the answer will space junk block your cell signal the astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do

his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Bryan Cranston is with us. How are you? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really No Really.

Yeah, really. No really. Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason Bobblehead. It's called Really No Really, and you can find it on the I heart radio app on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. We're stuck there. And in the middle of, of them doing that work,

he got a call from his boss saying, listen, you know, you're putting us in jeopardy down there. You know, you're setting a precedent. This is not part of our policies. I think you need to come back to work right away. And he, he said, when you come down here and see what I'm seeing and understand what I'm understanding, you will understand why I can't leave here until I'm done. And he hung up the phone. He was pissed off. And that was kind of the end of it. There could have been a situation where he could have really been in trouble, but he wasn't really in trouble. He really challenged a policy or a belief or a kind of way, a norm that they had always operated.

He challenged it with his own authority, his own privilege, and said, no, that's not what I'm doing. I'm staying here until this job is done. So we all are on that edge as people of taking that risk of whether we, what I often call, bid or pass in these situations. that risk of whether we, what I often call bid or pass in these situations. Do I follow my good wolf or my bad wolf when my heart is telling me I have to go to Florida and help these families, whatever it takes. So we're always making these decisions whether we know it or not. And when we turn a light on that to really see and listen to and respond from that place, that place of care, that place of this is something I want to do.

This is something I can do. This is something that will serve. It may not fix the whole problem, but it's something I can do, something I want to do. That's I think that's the zone we're in because this is messy. It's not going to be fixed in our lifetime. So we don't have to bite the whole elephant. We can just keep planting seeds and knowing that when we plant them, it's the future generations. It's your son.

It's people that come after that kind of smell a certain fragrance from that bloom and say, oh, I get it. You know, I can look at it this way. Yeah. There's another story that you tell in the book about back to this idea of, you know, white people tending to see ourselves as individuals and not as part of a racial group and how people of color do differently. You tell a story about talking with some folks in a training program you were doing after the 2016 election, where there were a couple of white men who felt like, you know, I'm being treated as a Trump supporter because I'm white. Can you share that story? I thought that was very insightful. Yeah. So it was these these white guys in the training. And when I was talking about the individual and group, you know, that we're all good individuals and we're part of racial identity group.

They both said, you know, I'm getting all this flack as a white guy because people look at me and think I, I'm just because I'm white, I'm a Trump supporter. And, um, so again, that's a very individual voice, you know, it's not me. I'm not one of him, you know? Um, and I, and I basically said, welcome to my world, you know, and the welcome to my world part is that that's what it's like to be membered. Yes. That's what it's like to be membered. Yes. That's what it's like to be a racial member. I have to manage and most people of color have to deal with not only their own, we're all in this. Most of us have to deal with our own experience as well as the projections that other people place on us.

But because of the power difference, it has different impact. So I'm dealing with all of the projections that people place on me as a black woman, you know, the automatic assumptions that might be made about me being a teenage mom and, you know, growing up in South Central Los Angeles and all these things, you know, people seeing that as old, poor poverty, you must have been poor. And it was like, yeah, all of that's true. And I was raised around all this strength and jazz and the civil rights movement and all this passion, right? So I'm dealing with what's projected on me as well as my lived experience. I'm dealing with my individual experience as well as my group,

racial group identity experience. White people tend to deal with their individual experience, but when their racial group identity experience is fed back to them, there's like, wait a minute, right? Exactly. Yeah. You know, that's kind of what happened. So it was a real moment for these two white guys to thaw out and get that. That's what we're dealing with. Of course. So how are you managing the fact that you are a member? A number, another spin on this, Eric, is I think that white people have said to me that another reason they don't want to move towards racial group identity

is because they'll be considered maybe a Trump supporter, but also, you know, I've heard them say a skinhead or, you know, something extreme as opposed to the majority. Right. The majority experiences around whiteness that hasn't really been vetted or examined. So the fear is that it's going to look like these extremes. And because they're not that, they don't go there. And because they're not that, they don't go there. But I think there's some real value in seeing what this experience of day-to-day ordinary white people is really about under the lens or under the inquiry of race. Being curious about what is the collective experience that we share as white people could be really valuable. I can't think of the comedian whose joke is, you know, it's similar to that about how good it is to be a white person and how he could, you know, as people of color have to be afraid getting in a time machine, but as a white person, you can get in a time machine and end up in any time.

And it's like this pretty good time to be alive. you can get in a time machine and end up in any time. And it's like this pretty good time to be alive. I also think racial affinity groups are also important for people of color because, you know, some of the traps we get into are thinking we know all there is to know about race. But I just came back from Canada. And this is just one example. My partner and I traveled through the Canadian Rockies. And then I stayed for 10 days and it was amazing. And I ended up in Vancouver at the end and taught a five-day retreat there, meditation retreat there. And being in Vancouver was one of the most diverse places I've ever been in my life. And I've traveled a lot. And so people of color, sometimes we think we know all there is to know

about race, but we haven't really examined the body of color that we have this presumed solidarity with. So what happens with us as people of color is we know a bit about our own racial group identity, but not about other racial groups identity in the body of color. And so we know a lot about our own race. We don't know about other people of color races. We don't know that experience people of color races we don't know that experience but in our conversation we tend to think it's all clumped together so for people of color it's important for us to investigate what people of color means what does it mean among us as a body of color, especially when we come together, say in a racial affinity group? What is our individual experiences of being a race? Not so much as a collective, but as individuals. And how do we understand our diversity within the body of color? And this is where my Canadian experience

comes in, of being in Canada and working closely with a Chinese Canadian there, which is very different than a Chinese American who had roots, his family roots were in the railroad, building the railroads there. And so it was, it really stretched my assumptions about Chinese because I was in another context. I wasn't in American context. I was in Canadian context. And I think it's this kind of intimacy with the body of color that we need to understand and be curious about so that we're not making blind assumptions and we're not moving just because we have a common enemy, so to speak, the white people, you know, that we really turn that around and look at, you know, what is it that we're missing out in terms of our own connections with each other. Makes sense.

One of the things, Ruth, that we have not had a chance to talk about is in addition to all your teachings on race, you're a hell of a Dharma teacher. And we are out of time here, so you and I are going to do it in the post-show conversation, but you have a little part where you talk about the three marks of existence that Buddhists talk about and a short teaching there that blew me away. And I'm really excited to talk more about it. Listeners, if you're interested in the post-show conversation, go to oneufeed.net slash support and become a contributor.

And you can hear all of those. You can listen to them right in your podcast player. And this one, I assure you, is going to be worth hearing. But Ruth, thank you so much for taking the time to come on and to share your book with us and your thoughts. It was very helpful for me. Thank you so much for having me. Okay.

Bye. Bye-bye. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a donation to the One You Feed podcast. Head over to oneyoufeed.net slash support. The One You Feed podcast would like to sincerely thank our sponsors for supporting the show.