The One You Feed - Special Episode: 4 Different Journeys to Sobriety

Episode Date: January 6, 2023

  In this special collaborative episode with Eric Zimmer, Gillian Tietz, Casey McGuire Davidson, and Dave Wilson (aka Sober Dave), they each share... 1. The reasons they kept drinking and why they weren't ready or felt they could give it up. 2. The strategies or methods they used to get started on their recovery journey and how that evolved during the different stages of their recovery. 3. The importance of finding a supportive community, either in person or online, and understanding that recovery is not one size fits all- you must find what works for you and in your life. To learn more about our guests on this special episode. click here!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Every week we learn something new and this journey is never linear and it never will be. I look at it like riding a bike uphill. Some days you're on a straight with the sun out and others you head down hill like that and it's pouring the rain. You either throw the bike in the bushes or you keep pedaling. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like, garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear.

We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction. How they feed their good wolf. I'm Jason Alexander.

And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really No Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead.

The Really No Really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi everybody. Today is a special episode. It's a collaboration with Eric and three other guests called the dry January collaboration. It includes sober Dave from the one for the road podcast, Casey from the Hello Someday podcast, and a previous The One You Feed interviewee, Jill, from the Sober Powered podcast. They discuss not only sobriety in general, but also their specific stories and the concept that there are many ways to live a sober life based on one's needs and lifestyle. Welcome to the show, Eric, Dave, and Casey. I thought that we could get started with a little quick intro of who we are and

what your story is. Eric, do you want to start us off? Sure, I'd be glad to. So my name is Eric Zimmer. I am the host of The One You Feed podcast, which is a interview style podcast where we talk about really what it takes to live a good life. You know, how do we thrive? How do we prosper? I've had the pleasure of having Jill on the show. I've appeared on her show. So there's a quality of guests. We get lots of great guests. You know, my sobriety story started a long time ago. I got sober for the first time in 1994 and was a homeless heroin addict at that point. And, you know, kind of a really low bottom. I mentioned homeless. I weighed a hundred pounds. I had hepatitis C. I was looking at potentially going to jail for 50 years. Things

were not going well. So I got sober. We're going to talk more about how all that happened later in the episode, but I got sober and I stayed sober for about eight years. And then a couple different things happened and I ended up going back out and drinking. I didn't go back to heroin, but I was drinking, I was smoking marijuana. And eventually by the fact that I'm appearing on a podcast about sobriety, you can tell that that second experiment did not end well. And so I had to get sober again. But it was a very different experience because the first time was this extremely low bottom. The second time I was on the outside thriving, I was making more money than I'd ever made. I had just been promoted into the best position I've ever had, had a nice car and a nice

house and all those things were all in place. And yet I knew on the inside, I was just as sick. So I got sober. And fast forward from there, I had a career in the software business, I founded a solar energy company, and that failed. And when that failed is when I sort of launched this podcast. And since launching the podcast, I've gone on to do lots of one on one coaching with people from around the podcast, I've gone on to do lots of one-on-one coaching with people from around the world. I created a program called Spiritual Habits and I have the podcast. So I think that's my quick version. Thank you. Yeah. It's hard to summarize it all in two seconds. Did I stay within my allotted time? I think I did. Yes. All right. You did.

Dave, do you want to tell us a little bit about who you are and your sobriety journey? Yeah, sure. Thanks, Jill. Thanks, Eric. My name is Dave Wilson, aka Sober Dave. Yeah, my story started back when I was 14 years old, and I had the misfortune of my mom leaving the family home and I got in with a group of lads from school actually that led me down a path of stealing, drinking, bunking off school, you know, I didn't actually finish school and then I kind of lived a normal late teens, early twenties where I would go out but I would work hard and just drink at weekends but when I reached 32 I was introduced to a local pub in the UK there was an

old-fashioned pub you know with a saloon bar and a public bar and the public bar was where all the builders and workmen used to go to and the other side were solicitors and you know their suits we used to call them and I used to use the excuse of actually getting work from the pub because I was in the carpet industry and I was called Dave the carpet so I always used to say you know the work the money I get from the work will pay for my drinking so there's not a problem but the trouble is with that it was never quite enough in the pub so I used to get takeouts and I started drinking indoors and back then you could get a cider called diamond white and it was 8.4% and I started drinking indoors and then that kind of led on

to my health declining putting on weight when I 40 years old, I moved away from the pub and I realised then that the pub near me wasn't the same. So I started drinking indoors all the time. I put on more weight. So I googled what alcohol has the least amount of calories in that vodka. And I was never really a spirit man. I went from half a bottle which lasted me about half an hour to a bottle to then a litre and to be honest I don't remember my 40s at all I was drinking a litre a night for a long time passing out blacking, but I was still functioning, getting up, going to work, drunk still half the time. And it got to my 50s that the doctor basically said to me that if I didn't stop, I would die.

I didn't stop. And I ended up like Eric, not the same, I imagine, but I made myself homeless for a few days by going AWOL. I vanished. no one knew where I was and I drank in the pub all day and then went and drank vodka on a freezing cold beach and nearly died there because it was April in the UK it was freezing I was paralytic and it still wasn't enough for me to stop drinking but January 2019, I had an epiphany and I just stopped. And I will say that I shouldn't have stopped the way I did for medical reasons.

You know, I should have reduced, but I stopped. And since then, everything has changed. I'll talk a bit more about that later. But I can honestly say it saved me and it's the best thing I've ever done for myself ever. Lots of things have happened since I've become sober. Thank you, Dave. Casey, do you want to give us a quick intro to who you are and how you got started in sobriety? Yeah, absolutely. So I'm Casey McGuire-Davidson. I live in Seattle, Washington. I'm a life and sobriety coach and I host the podcast, the Hello Someday podcast for sober curious women. But

before I started that, I was sort of a self-declared red wine girl for many, many, many years. My story is a little bit different than Dave. I spent 20 years, I was climbing the corporate ladder in big companies and small startups in Seattle, and got married, had kids, bought a house, all the usual things. But I was pretty consistently drinking a bottle of wine or more every night. I was sort of the seven nights a week, 365 nights a year drinker. I sort of varied where I drank, you know, just for variety. So I'd drink at happy hours, you know, out with my coworkers. I'd drink on date nights with my husbands or girls' nights. But most of it was me coming home from work with my kids after picking them up for daycare

and sort of a glass while cooking dinner, a glass while doing the dishes, and then finishing the bottle on the couch while watching TV, you know, to quote unquote relax or whatever. Nobody really said anything to me about it. It was just sort of like part of who I was. I was always a big drinker since college. And I think that I had so many other things distracting, like what Eric talked about, from, you know, there's nothing to see here. I had a good job. I was successful.

I had a good marriage and friends and my kids were good. And at the same time, I would have the 3 a.m. and my kids were good. And at the same time, I would have the 3 a.m. wake-ups and I would, you know, hate putting my eyeliner on my bloodshot eyes in the morning and not want anyone to look at me too closely when I was at the bus stop with my five-year-old and yet promise myself I'd take a break and by 4 p.m. rationalize that, you know, it's been a hard day, a good day, it doesn't matter, whatever it is. So that was pretty much my story. I quit drinking almost seven years ago. Again, like Dave said, it was literally my worst case scenario in my life. I desperately didn't want to quit. I wanted to figure out how to moderate, and it's been the best decision I've ever made. I love that. Thank you, Casey. So a quick intro for me. I'm Jill. I host the Sober Powered

Podcast. I just celebrated three years of sobriety in early November. And I was a solo drinker like Dave. I loved drinking by myself. I used to say drinking by myself was my jam. It was my favorite thing to do. Even though my husband never made a comment about my drinking or thought that I had a problem or needed to drink less or stop, I still preferred drinking alone because then I could just really go for it. And those were always the worst nights too at the same time. I was also a daily drinker pretty much right from the start. And I had a lot of mental health consequences from my drinking. I had a lot of depression, which eventually became suicidal thoughts. And that was what finally pushed me into sobriety. I spent so many years thinking that I could just learn to moderate and control it if

I tried hard enough or I found the right strategy. And eventually the suicidal thoughts became so powerful that I just accepted, I just can't, I can't do it. And I gave up. And now it's been three years and I agree with all of you, best decision that I ever made, even though it's hard and even though it felt scary. So I think we've all mentioned reasons why it was hard for us to stop. But Eric, what do you think was the main thing that held you back from stopping the second time around? Well, I think the thing that held me back in all cases was simply a huge part of me not wanting to, you know, I don't think you get to the level that any

of us got in our relationship with substances if they are not doing something somewhat profound for you in some way, right? They have been a friend of sorts, not in the long term a good friend, but certainly in the short term and in many moments, at least for me, was a good friend. So what held me back was not wanting to have to quit. And we all talked a little bit about this idea of moderation, right? Which I think in AA, they say it's the great obsession of every abnormal drinker that will someday be able to control our drinking, right? And we try all kinds of different strategies. And if you're like me and you're mixing multiple substances in, you've got even more variations to try. No drinking, but only weed. Only weed on the weekends or alcohol on the weekends, weed in the morning. You know, only taking Valium three days a week. I time, the fact that I could not find a way to make alcohol and drugs work in my life. And eventually getting to the point where I realized,

well, the answer probably has to be abstinence, which is the worst possible answer, at least for me, particularly the second time, because I knew what was going to happen if I couldn't figure out how to moderate my drinking. I knew I was going to go back to a 12-step program and I was going to have to give it up completely and I was desperate not to do that. So I really tried hard to moderate. So I think that's the most concrete answer. On the other hand, take more of my Buddhist perspective, right? Buddhism talks about this moment is here because of all these causes and conditions that arise, right? So on another level, in addition to what I just said, the things that would support my sobriety didn't come together till they came together, you know, and those were internal to me things, those were external to me things, those were support that I was able to

get. So all that stuff sort of had to line up in the right way at the right time for me to achieve something like permanent sobriety. Dave, you mentioned that you had a lot of moments that should have encouraged you to stop. But what do you think was the main thing that kept you trying to keep drinking in your life? I used alcohol as a coping strategy. I stopped enjoying alcohol a long time ago, to be honest. So I would numb myself out really quickly. I'll get in from work and I'll pour the largest vodka you could imagine to numb me straight away. And I will continue like that. I would never sit there sipping it, watching the telly with my feet up thinking, oh, this is great. It was purely doing a job I intended it to

do. And after 40 years of drinking, it's a tough decision to make to end that relationship. And I compare it to a relationship that you've been in because it wasn't always awful. In the beginning, it was fun. It gave me confidence and it made me funny. I used to really love having a drink, but during my 40s and 50s, it was purely there to numb out the pain, but I wasn't ever ready to address the pain. So the first time I tried to stop, I lasted a few days and I just couldn't do it. And I just put it down to the fact I wasn't ready so I had to change my mindset and after that in April I had to go back to the doctors and I will add to that as well the doctor had doubled my antidepressants just before that happened right so I was a bit psychotic

I think and I was on four medications I was on tablets for my cholesterol. That was quite high. My blood pressure was 184 over 126. And the doctor said I'm a walking heart attack. And I was only 54 then. I was 130 kg. I had acid reflux daily. I would projectile vomit acid without warning. You know, I was basically, I think, on the brink of death. And that didn't stop me because I

still wasn't ready to deal with what was going on in my life and it was when I say an epiphany it was almost like a friend texted me on the 7th of January and he said to me how do you feel like joining me to stop drinking alcohol for three months and when I got this text I had a hangover obviously Monday morning I looked here and literally burst out laughing. I thought, I can't even give up three days, right? But something happened that day. It trickled in slowly. And then I remember pulling over in a lay-by later on that day. And I sat there and I thought, I wonder where I would be in three months. I wonder how my health would be, how my relationships would be, you know, how I would feel every day if I was three months without

alcohol. And I text him and I said, let's go. So that was it that day. And do you know what? The weird side of me often wonders, I wonder what my last drink was because I don't remember because the night before I hadn't planned it. And it's almost like I want to go back and revisit that last drink and go that's it because I'm pretty sure that I ain't gonna do it again trust me so it was pure serendipity I think that I stopped drinking but you know I'll add to that there's a thing about spontaneous sobriety and you could label mine as that because I gave up on the day but I think there was a lot of subliminal thinking going on along the lines of, I know I've got to stop. So it was psychologically preparing myself for that day as well. Dave, I was actually thinking about my last drink over the weekend. So it's funny

that you mentioned that. And I was reflecting on it. I don't remember the exact one either, but I was reflecting on it and I was like, it probably wasn't even like anything great. You know, it was just like a stupid drink in a dive bar. And I didn't know in that moment that that was the very last one. So thank you for sharing that. Okay. Casey, what do you think was the main thing that held you back from quitting drinking? Yeah. I mean, I was laughing too when you guys were saying you don't remember your last drink or you didn't know at the time that it was that because I didn't either.

I mean, my last night drinking, and we can talk about this, but it was so uneventful. You know, typical bottle of wine on the couch, you know, same things, turned on, scandal or some show. And my husband said to me, I think you watched this last night. And I said, no, I didn't. You know, you're wrong. He doesn't pay attention, whatever. And I got to the very end of the hour and something about that was familiar.

And I was just like, oh my God, my brain literally did not record an entire hour, which wasn't unusual. And yet I was so sure he was wrong. Like I was just like, you're completely wrong. And so, you know, you don't know anyone listening to this when you're like, oh my gosh, I have to be ready for day one. You don't know when your last day drinking is going to be. Jill, you asked me what held me back from getting sober sooner.

I think the biggest idea in my mind that held me back was that I was quote unquote not that bad. You know, I knew I drank a lot. I knew I drank way more than other people did. But everyone I knew drank. And you. And that's by design. We surround ourselves with drinkers. But I literally didn't know a single person in my social life who loved drinking the way I did and had stopped and said that life was better and they were happier on the other side. And so I had this sort of dichotomy,

which I think so many people do, that either you are a quote unquote alcoholic and therefore you need to stop, or there's nothing to see here. You just abuse alcohol. You need to get better at moderating it. And it was so ingrained in my identity, you know, who I was as a red wine girl, and it was shorthand for everything from I have two little kids, but I'm still cool. It was part of business networking. It was part of how I sort of expressed, yeah, I have fun, you know, all that kind of stuff. So I think that what held me back, obviously, I did not want to stop drinking, right? I loved it. And I think for a lot of us who drink, we love it.

But also it was the idea that like, I kind of by the end knew that this was going nowhere good and that it was unsustainable the way I was drinking. But very clearly in my mind, I was like, I could probably string this out a couple more years. You know, like, if I'm going to have to stop, I can probably, you know, play it out for a while longer. Yeah, it held me back for a long time, and I wish it hadn't. Jill, what about you?

Everything you guys said, definitely. But I think the main thing for me was what it meant about me if I had to stop. That was the thing that I was fighting against the most because I thought that people who had to quit drinking were weak-willed losers who can't control themselves. I believed everything bad that you've ever heard out there about alcoholics. So I didn't want to be that. I didn't want people to attach all of those things to me. So I was scared to give up the fun, which barely existed anymore, and connecting with other people. And I thought I was like this little wine connoisseur who knew all these fancy things and went to wine tastings. And so I didn't want to give up that,

but it was more like what it meant about me if I had to stop. So I was fighting against that. So if I could just learn to moderate, then I wouldn't be a loser. And I would shame myself when I wouldn't moderate. Like if you can't figure this out, you're going to have to stop for good. And everybody's going to say you're an alcoholic and a loser and you have no self-control. So I would like threaten myself with the stigma and that only made it worse, but that was what held me back. is I think another thing that holds us back is sort of the destructive spiral of addiction, which is I don't feel good about myself, so I take a drink. And then I behave in ways that I don't feel good about, or I have a lot of stigma towards myself for drinking, which then makes me feel worse, which then causes me to need to take another because I feel so bad, which then causes me to feel worse. And it's just this slow, gradual eroding of who we are and the shame that creeps its way in also. And I think

that's the other insidious part of this that makes it so hard. Yeah, I think what I love the most about not drinking is just the absence of that horrible voice in my head, the self-loathing, the berating every morning, just to have that be gone and to wake up and think of nothing but the smell of the coffee or whether it's raining or all that stuff is pretty incredible. Do you know what I think as well? It's the time that you get back in your head because you have the usual thing in the morning when you say you're not going to drink that day and then you start to negotiate throughout the day right and then by the afternoon there it is so i might just have one and then you get your two bottles

or your liter of vodka knowing for where you're going to do it and then it starts again so what eric's saying about the hamster wheel isn't it i call it the hamster wheel of doom where it's so impossible to get off because you go through this cycle don't you of repeat repeat repeat behavior yeah and it just brings you lower and lower and lower and needing alcohol more and more and i thought that the only good part of my life was like those first two hours where I was drinking. And I thought that my actual life was bad and the drinking. So it really just tricks you into thinking you suck and the drinking is good. Yours lasted two hours, Jill. Mine lasted about 10 minutes, the way I was drinking. Well, that's because you had 30 more years on her, Dave.

Jill would have gotten down to the two-second mark had she stuck with it. Yeah. Thankfully, I still kept my two hours. Yeah, well done. Hey everyone, this is Jenny. One of my absolute favorite things is when we hear from listeners of the show. And something we hear quite often is that one of the biggest obstacles to feeding the good wolf is remembering. Because life is busy and we get caught up in routines and we're all on autopilot so much of the time. So to help with that, we've started sending

a couple of text messages after each episode is released to listeners who sign up for them, and it's something we're offering for free. A listener wrote us and said, the messages caused me to pause, even if just for a moment, and help me to remember important bits of wisdom, bringing them to the forefront of my mind. Remembering is the hardest part, and the text messages are super helpful. So if you'd like to hear from us a few times a week via text, go to oneufeed.net slash text and sign up for free. Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer.

Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts his stuntman reveals the answer and you never know who's going to drop by mr brian cranson

is with us how are you hello my friend wayne knight about jurassic park wayne knight welcome to really no really sir bless you all hello newman and you never know when howie mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really, no really. Yeah, really. No really. Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead.

It's called Really, No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Eric, when you stopped, you mentioned that you started with AA the first time. What do you think you did the second time that really helped you to get sober? I did 12-step programs in both cases. I mean, the first time I chose that because I went to a rehab and that's what they did there. And honestly, in 1994 in Columbus, Ohio, there was no other game in town. Like very literally, there was no other choice. So that's where I got sober. And so then when I realized I needed to get sober the second time, that just seemed like the place to go. You know, this is 15 years ago.

So I don't know, 2007, maybe there still wasn't a lot in the way of alternatives in the way there are now. So I just went back because that's what I knew. I knew how to do it. I knew it worked. You know, there's lots of things about 12-step programs that many people find objectionable, and I find some of those things objectionable too. But the thing about them, the power I think that they have for many people, and certainly was for me, was in Columbus, Ohio, there were hundreds and hundreds of meetings a week. So if I needed support and help, it was available in person for me nearly any time. That is a real strong advantage to it that I think, at least in my case,

offset what many of the disadvantages are. And maybe we'll get into that as we talk about how we get sober. But I did it 12 step both ways, but largely due to lack of choice. I think today in today's world, I would probably very likely have gone a different direction, whether that would be good or bad. I have no idea. I can't say. I just know what did work for me. But I do think the fact that there are lots of alternatives now is great. And I think that's part of why we all wanted to do this episode was to show that there's not one way to do this. I think that's really important. Yeah. And even though a lot of people think that AA is the only option, if you start exploring and Googling or hanging out in the sober community, you'll see there are lots of different options. But I thought that AA was my only choice too. And I remember my biggest fear about that was

that someone would recognize me, which was so stupid because they're there for the same exact reason I'm there. But that was my main thing. Like I can't go because someone's going to recognize me there and then they'll know. That is a hugely common thing. I mean, me there and then they'll know. That is a hugely common thing. I mean, it really is. I mean, I think stepping into any new group is always hard under any circumstances, right? Particularly for those of us who are a little bit more shy, perhaps, or introverted. But then you add that stigma of addiction, alcohol to it. Boy, that is a very brave move. Walking into whatever support you find the first time is a really big and brave move. I totally agree.

Dave, you mentioned that you had spontaneous sobriety a bit, even though it was a mindset shift for a while leading up to it. Yeah. When you did get sober and you did decide to stop with your friend for three months, what did you do for support and why did you do that over other things as you both say at that moment I only thought there was AA and a friend of mine actually she was going to AA local to me and ironically I didn't care if anyone knew I was because I came out the closet straight away and I thought I don't care because it was my way of dealing with it I wanted everyone to know that I was getting help and I needed help so I had no issue with that but I went there about five times and towards the end it didn't quite sit with me and I couldn't

pinpoint it and now I'm four years sober I think maybe it was the wrong meeting that I should have mixed and matched and tried other meetings and met other people because I went to the same thing but I created my page on Instagram and started posting my story and there were a lot of people that were messaging me about it because I'm a bit older and I say it how it is and people seem to like that and then I saw an event that was held with a few guests there was a couple of authors there and whatever so I bought a ticket and I got on the train to go to that and normally I would have pre-drinks you know turn up bit of Dutch courage and I got there and it was really rough this this area, and I was walking up and down. I was thinking, I don't know if I can go in.

I don't know if I can do it. Eventually, I plucked up the courage and it was packed in there and I met all kinds of people. There were a couple of bikers in there, you know, people from all walks of life. And I remember after all this talking was done, the speeches and whatever, and the interviews, I left there and got on the train and I thought, oh my God, there were so many normal people. I didn't know what to expect, but it was like, everyone's normal. You know,

I feel part of something now. And from that day, we stayed in touch and as you know Jill I mean we're all on our podcast we talk to people all over the world I've done 15 hour live-a-thons globally all three people I've met for the community so the community is a huge pull for me even now after four years I might have a down day and I might post and people come in like yourselves and say, Dave, you know, come on, mate, get through today. And, you know, the community on social media has been a real savior for me. I didn't think any of us were normal either, Dave. So same feeling. Yeah. Yeah. Casey, when you stopped drinking, what did you do for support? And then why did you choose that over your other options? Yeah, I was resonating with what Eric said about the options available when he stopped

drinking, both the first time and sort of what he knew was available the second time. So like many people, I'm sure listening to this, when I finally stopped drinking seven years ago, that wasn't kind of my first rodeo, I guess. I tried to stop drinking 10 years ago when my son was five. And I did it because I'd really gotten to the point where I felt like I couldn't cope with my life. I felt like I couldn't cope with my job, my marriage, my kid, even though I loved him more than anything.

And so I was like, I have to get sober to get some clarity on what specifically isn't working in my life. And I went to a therapist and he was sober through a 12-step program. I joined an online group just in the very, very early days of that stuff a decade ago, so 2012, 2013. very, very early days of that stuff a decade ago, so 2012, 2013. And people there invited me to go to AA. And I went with them and met really incredible people. It turned out not to be my path for various reasons. And I'm sure part of it was I wanted to go back to drinking. But part of it was sort of the structure and the approach and the rituals that weren't necessarily the direction that

I wanted to go. So I went back to drinking. And the second time, I came back seven years ago. So just three years later, the world had changed quite a bit, which is incredible. I was still a member of my online not drinking group, but as I was debating quitting drinking or not, people recommended sober coaching to me. And that ended up being my path. I went after that fairly remarkable night of not remembering the shows I watched. I had the 3 a.m. wake up. I felt like garbage in the morning. I went into my

office and went online to look up this sober coach and signed up that day at 10 a.m. And in the spirit of support is available anywhere. She lived in Paris. We emailed every day. She had audios you could listen to. It was Belle from Tired of Thinking About Drinking. And we had coaching calls. I'd go out to my car for 30 minutes in the middle of my workday. I think that worked for me for a couple of reasons. Eric, I love that you said there's in-person support available at any time through a 12-step meeting. And I think that's incredible. Also, as a mom of an eight-year-old and a two-year-old with a full-time job, it was difficult. My husband coached after his job and it just didn't work for my schedule. But being able to tap into online groups and email my sober coach or listen to

audios when I was driving into work or walking to coffee or rocking my baby to sleep at night. That worked for me. And so the other thing I loved about coaching was there was no labels. That was a big holdup for me. I didn't have to call myself an alcoholic. It was also that I needed help with the big things. And for me, the big things were, who am I if I don't drink? What are all my liminy beliefs about life without alcohol and what it'll be like? And like Jill said, what will people think of me? But it was also the really small block in tackling, like, oh my God, I'm going to a dinner party.

What am I going to say to the host? I am driving home from work and I desperately want to pick up a bottle of wine. What do I do instead? I am angry at my husband and my two-year-old is crying. What do I do? And it was those like really practical things that I needed help with. Yeah. And we don't realize how hard the everyday things can be, especially I get mad at my

husband too. So I get that. And a lot of other people, I used to just drink at people all the time. And then I didn't realize that until I got sober and I had the urge to then drink at those people. And you have to learn how to just handle everyday things. Yeah. Casey, I love that you sort of countered the in-person support with what you needed, because what we ultimately need is what fits into our life, and what works with our characteristics and our personality. And like I said, I think the fact that there are more options is an amazing thing. I mean, the second time I got sober, it was in-person support is what I had. And I had a really difficult time because I had kids, same thing. I'm going to take my kids to, you know, this in

the evening and I'm coaching soccer. I'm doing that. Actually, I never coached soccer. I'm terrible at soccer, but I did coach baseball. And, you know, so then for me, it was like, all right, I got to get a lunch meeting in and then I'm having to rush to the meeting and, you know, then can I get out of work in time? So, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of advantages to this convenience. And Jill, I'd love to kind of hear maybe what your path was. So I didn't really do much in the beginning. I stopped and I did that because I realized that drunk Jill, my alter ego, would probably do something really bad to me if I were ever drunk and alone, which, as I said in the beginning, was my favorite way to drink. So I felt really scared for myself and I accepted that I can never drink ever again for the rest of my life.

And I didn't take it a one day at a time approach. at a time approach. And because I said forever, not that I was like cool with it, but I accepted it. I felt like I didn't need support. So I didn't do anything. I was in like a Facebook group or two and I kind of hung around there and like posted a little or commented a little, but I didn't do much. I listened to podcasts. When I quit for good, I binged all of Craig Beck's stuff because he makes me laugh. I love all of his thoughts on moderation. He's so funny. But eventually in these Facebook groups, I started kind of sharing. And at that point, a couple months in, I still thought like I was the only one that had my experiences. still thought like I was the only one that had my experiences. And I was afraid to tell people about it because I kept saying, if I tell people that I used to feel suicidal when I drink, they're going

to like call, I don't know who you call on me. And I'm going to get like the 72 hour hold. And like this whole, I was really afraid that that was a completely unique experience and that there would be some consequences if I shared it. So I kept a lot of things to myself. And then eventually I got comfortable sharing. And so many people told me like, me too. And that helped me. And I was like, wow, it wasn't just me.

Like that isn't a weird, abnormal experience to have. And then I just continued hanging out with Facebook people until the world shut down and we all went into quarantine. I was about four months sober and I worked in a lab. So I always had to be like at work. And I have liked therapy at that point for like 10 years, but I felt awkward about like leaving work at the same time every week. And like, maybe people would know I was going to therapy, like, oh my gosh, shocking. Someone goes to therapy, right? And when we all went home and I couldn't bring my lab work home with me, I had a lot of time and therapists were now meeting with people

virtually. So I started doing therapy around four months sober. So that's when like I finally did something and got support. And up until then I was angry. I would go out to social things and I would cry afterwards from the stress. Like I still wasn't drinking, but I wasn't doing fabulous at it. I was just not drinking. And through therapy, like I learned, why are you so angry all the time? Why do you want to drink at people? Like, why is it so hard for you to think about like shameful things? And why do you believe you're a loser if you don't drink? So I learned kind of like what was going on in my own head. And that was what helped me the most. And then over time, the rage started to calm down and I could learn to manage my emotions a bit, but I had no tools or skills when I stopped drinking

because my only coping skill, like Dave was saying, was just drinking. You have such a sweet disposition, Jill. I can't see rageful Jill at this juncture in my life, but I'm not doubting her existence. I'm just saying it's a very stark contrast to what we get, you know, of you now. Yeah, everybody says that, but she does exist. Yeah. My husband. I was going to say the same thing. Yeah, my husband can tell you guys she does. She does appear sometimes. And the way that she appears is like, we'll be sitting on the couch and I'll stand up to like rant at him about something. And it doesn't even have to be like rage directed at him.

But he still sees it even if it's directed at other people. Yep. Serious business. Put down your phone and get ready for a lecture. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who the way to the floor. We got the answer.

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Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really No Really. Yeah, really. No really. Go to reallynoreally.com

and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So for you guys, it seems like it wasn't that hard for you to get support. I think for me, I had all of these beliefs that it meant something bad about me. If I needed help, did you ever feel that way? Or did you just feel that support would help you? So you wanted it? Oh, I think I came about it via a long path. And I think most of us do in the same way that there's this moderation thing, right? Where I'm going to moderate this.

I'm going to figure this out. There's also this idea that I can do this on my own. I should be able to do this on my own. And so my experience was lots of attempts of that, right? You know, I think from when I first started really drinking to the first time I got sober was not that long, right? Maybe, I don't know, six years. Now, again, I have a tendency to burn the house down quick,

which is, I suppose, an advantage in many ways. But I think from early on, I started knowing something's not quite right. And so I started trying in my own way, thousands of little moderation quitting experiments. And so I don't think I wanted support. I think that in my case, I ended up in a detox center because I was in big trouble. I'd gone to AA and NA before that, and just, it didn't do anything for me. It just had no real effect on me. But I ended up in a place where I was just desperate. And then I was kind of surrounded by support. And I think in that process, I started to see like, oh, this feels good. This feels good to walk into a room and have other people tell their story and maybe like, oh, yeah, that's a lot like mine. I don't feel so

alone or to share some part of me and then everybody look at me and be like, yeah, of course. Yeah, I felt that. So I think it was a, I don't really want it, but I started getting exposed to it. And as I got exposed to it more, it started, I started to notice that a, it worked and B, it felt good, but I don't think I wanted it. I think I'm a little bit like Dave in that my outward identity was so alcohol and addiction focused that there was no shame for me. If there was any shame for me in getting help, it was from the people around me who were like, what, are you a quitter? You know, I mean, like that kind of shame, you know, it wasn't from the rest of the world being like, oh my God, you've got a problem. It was from the people in the trenches with me who were like, what,

you're going to AA? Are you kidding me? You know, that's where I felt the pressure. So it was kind of the opposite direction. Dave, you said that you were like proud to get support. What made you feel that way? I've always been interested in how we think. I've always had a real passion for becoming a therapist one day. So when I was drinking, I actually signed up to a course, trying to be a therapist and then go on to university. And part of that was because, as I was drinking, I actually signed up to a course, trained to be a therapist and then go on to university. And part of that was because, as I said before,

when I was at school, I literally failed everything and left before I was due to leave. And I've always had this thing that I'm ill-educated, thick, useless, can't do anything. So I've done basic jobs, but I've got by because I think we'll all agree when we go through this addiction become incredibly resilient so I did two years at college doing a course to become a therapist and I learned a lot I learned a lot about listening skills theory but surprise surprise I

failed miserably because I used to get drunk whilst doing my homework. I thought it was a good idea to have four or five pints before I even opened my MacBook. And then I would do a 1500 word dissertation thinking it's the best thing ever and put it in. And think, yeah, I'll smash that and then be hauled into the office saying, what the hell is this? So I failed that. But do you know what I was saying about my sobriety? You know, the first year was just outside lockdown, but in lockdown, I believe education is key. And quite often, Jill, I head people towards your podcast because they're short, they're science based. My podcast is more life stories, you know, so it gives a bit of variation there and I decided to do a course on becoming a grey area drinking coach like Casey said how important it was for her to have a

sobriety coach and you know what I learned more in those few months than I did about life itself I learned about the nervous system about all the unique things that we need to put in our sober toolbox you know to help us and also the power of accountability as well and I flew through that loved every minute of it and then set up as a sobriety coach and you know what working with people that's starting out or like Eric you know second time around and I learn myself from people do you know what I mean I learn about their journeys and even on my podcast you know I love talking to people about what they've been through so for me the education was so important for me and as we all know every week we learn something new and this journey is never linear and it never will be I

look at it like riding a bike uphill. Some days you're on a straight with the sun out and others you head down hill like that and it's pouring the rain. You either throw the bike in the bushes or you keep pedaling, you know, and trust me, in the last few months I've been pedaling uphill, but I'm still not drinking. So that's a bonus. Dave, I also thought that drinking helped me study and do my homework. Really was convinced, actually. Did it every time. I know.

I would love to see some of those essays, Dave. I think those would really be special if you can find them. I'll probably got them somewhere, but that being the... You should publish it. The electra's been somewhere. That's your second book, Dave. Deep thoughts. Yeah.

Jill, I thought it was interesting when you said about, okay, I knew this was just it. I was never going to drink again, that I needed to stop forever. Because I think definitely that thought was one of the things that held me back for a very long time. And so when I finally stopped drinking for the last time, one of the things that appealed to me is that it was a 100-day challenge with a coach, with support. And what helped me about that was it wasn't, I'm going to try to moderate. I'm only going to have two drinks. I'm only going to drink once a week. It wasn't one day at a time, but it also wasn't forever. So, you know, I just had to go on faith that if I didn't drink for a hundred

days, I would feel better. And I would look back at the way I was living with the drinking and the bad memories and the hangovers and the 3 a.m. wake-ups and the anxiety and say, oh my God, I never want to go back to that again. I can't believe that was my normal. And that is what happened. But I think that if I had said forever, I would go out to dinner and see a woman at the table next to me with a glass of red wine and just be like, I am never going to have that again. And therefore, I'm going to drink one last time, right? And I think that that would have helped me back from ever getting the distance I needed from alcohol. When you talk about support, I think there were two pieces that I needed. One, the online support of knowing that there were lots and lots of people

out there, specifically women, mothers, people who worked out there like me, who also struggled with alcohol and their husbands drank and all their friends drank, right? I was like, okay, they have the same set of problems I have, which is different than other people. And that's okay. There's still pressures. But not only that, someone said to me, and I think it's so true that there are sort of two sets of problems that you solve for when you stop drinking. And the first one is sort of the aftermath problems, which are the hangovers, the sleep, the defensiveness, the self-loathing, the bad talk. That gets solved pretty quickly, but then you have the underlying problems. And so for me, I think I needed layers of support. So in the beginning, I needed the practical advice like, how do I not drink on

a Friday night? How do I tell my husband I'm not doing this? How do I go to a work happy or a business trip? And then, like you, Jill, I started therapy four months in. And it was because I had a major panic anxiety episode. And I was really upset because I thought that by quitting drinking, my anxiety would go away. And I was like, oh my God, I gave up the thing I love more than anything in this entire world and I'm not fixed. But it was the first time I could see it clearly and go to a therapist weekly and start to dig into why am I feeling this anxiety and get on medication while also not counteracting that with a bottle of wine at night. And what's amazing is I actually got diagnosed with a mild mood disorder that I'm sure I've had my entire life, but I wouldn't have

figured that out if I was still drinking. I would just blame myself for everything. So I mean, support started with an online group and a coach. And then I added exercise. And then I added therapy. And I added medication. And then after that, figured out some boundaries. So you need support for each stage of your journey. That's what I found. I love that. That's amazing. And I see that all the time that we quit drinking and we think like, that's it. Now I'm better. Now everything should be good. And then it's shocking when things still aren't good. It can be like really confusing and lead a lot of people back because why bother, right? If things don't get better immediately, why bother giving up my favorite thing? So thank you for bringing that up. Yeah, that's a really important point, I think, which is that some people feel

better almost immediately upon quitting drinking. Other people feel almost immediately worse. And so knowing that is really important. And we hear about the pink cloud in early sobriety a lot. And it's true. For many people, there is a pink cloud. There is that great relief that this thing, you know, this guillotine that's been hanging over my head all these years, someone has just wheeled it away and it's not here anymore. And there's a great relief. And then slowly life sort of starts to trickle back in, but we all have underlying issues. You don't get to the point with alcohol and drugs that many of us get to. That's not generally the sign of a well-adjusted personality structure, right? There's things we don't know how to deal with. We don't know how to cope with.

So I love that idea also, Casey, that you said about support at different stages of the journey and needing different things. But I think it's really important. I always say to people, don't confuse what getting sober is like with what it's like to be sober. Because for me, getting sober is a misery. It is a deep misery. It feels like being torn apart inside. Because one part of me desperately is like, I can't do this. The other part of me is like, but I have to do this. And then there's no relief from the substance to at least dampen that

down a little bit. So getting sober for me is misery. However, being sober for me, I mean, it's good enough. It's what I've done the vast majority of my adult life at this point. And it's really been a great thing. But I think those are two really important points you both just brought up there. I think it's also important to recognize landmarks. Because for me, the first year was all about stopping drinking physically. And I got up to the first year and then I celebrated my sobersery. And it was almost like a week or two after that, I went through the whole feeling of what now?

And I related that to maybe pregnancy where there's a big build-up to the birth right and then the baby's born and then two or three weeks later the phone stops ringing and the baby's crying in the night and you're like oh my god I'm on my own and I felt I really don't know what to do now and I'm having more and more people come to me now with this feeling I call it the second phase of sobriety, where they've actually got used to not drinking. They've told all their friends they don't drink and they've experienced holidays, birthdays, Christmas, all without drinking. And then all of a sudden it's like, I don't know who I am. I don't know what I'm doing, you know. And I think that's an important thing.

As I said previously, that it's never linear. And that's an important thing as i said previously that it's never linear and it's an important thing the landmarks can be really triggering yeah that's really interesting dave because i think the first time around i was in a 12-step program and we hand out coins at 30 60 90 days a year there's a big focus on that and i think there's a lot of benefit in that however it is a double-edged sword right and the double-edged sword of it is, A, we invest too much belief that at a certain point, a year, then everything will be great, right? So we're building towards this big thing, and it's just another day. And then there's the other, which is that if you're not achieving perfect sobriety,

you feel like you're making no progress based on those milestones, which can be very disheartening. You know, when I came back the second time, I had had eight years sober before. So counting three days just felt depressing. You know, okay, well, I've got I've got a week now. Yeah, but you used to have eight years, you know, I've got a month now. Yeah, but it's not a year. It was just all so I finally just was like, forget it. I often get confused how many years I am sober, because I just have paid so little attention to it. I have a friend. I'm like, was it 2007?

Was that when it was? Was it 2006? Because for me, those milestones just, they got in the way after a certain point. So I think finding your relationship to them that works for you and holding them somewhat lightly also. them somewhat lightly also. For me, the 13-month milestone was the most anticlimactic, boring. It was 13 months. I woke up and I'm like, huh, I don't feel anything about this. I don't feel excited about it. I don't feel like anyone would care about it. And it was weird. And then it happened again at 14. I'm like, I don't think

14 is really that exciting either. And after that buildup, like the 11th month for me, every single day was so exciting because it's like, oh, 20 days until my one year, five more days. And then after the year, it's like you crash again. Yeah. I mean, I think that it's important, you know, Eric, you said about celebrating milestones in the 12-step program and how that's helpful. I mean, I think we always need something to look forward to. I think that just makes us happier before, during, and after. But what you're looking forward to needs to shift. But what you're looking forward to needs to shift. I mean, I still, for my annual soberversary, I guess, I take the day off of work.

I do exactly what I want. I plan something for myself. Because even though people in my life know, I mean, they know because I tell them that it's coming up because I want them to acknowledge it. But they don't get it. They don't get it. You know, they don't get it's a big deal. So for my one year, I went to a She Recovers yoga event in Seattle and was gathered with all these women. And, you know, it was just really special. But then the next day, I went to Mexico with my family and it was my first big sober vacation. But I think that, you know, my year two, I was just living.

You know, the first year you're learning how to do everything. And the second year I was just living, but I really focused on joy. So just planning all the little things that would make me happy. So I got kittens and, you know, took up doing a triathlon again. So I got kittens and, you know, took up doing a triathlon again and just little things that made me happy that were sort of incompatible with being drunk and passed out on my couch. Thank you guys so much for having this conversation with me and sharing everything. This was very insightful. And I think we all have very different experiences, but there's a lot of similarities too in the

way that we think and the way we've approached things. If someone wants to learn more about you and connect with your work, Eric, where can they go do that? OneYouFeed.net, O-N-E-Y-O-U-F-E-E-D.net, or look for the One You Feed podcast. Anywhere you get your podcast, you'll notice it has a little two wolf heads on it. It's fairly distinctive. Thank you. And Dave, where can people connect with you get your podcast, you'll notice it has a little two wolf heads on it. It's fairly distinctive. Thank you. And Dave, where can people connect with you and your work? Sure.

My podcast is One for the Road, and you can find that on all your podcast platforms. And all my other details, my coaching, my book, everything are on my Instagram at Sober Dave. Thank you, Dave. And Casey, where can we connect with your work? Yeah, my podcast is called the Hello Someday Podcast. And you can find that anywhere you listen. And my website is hellosomedaycoaching.com. And I've got a bunch of free guides on there if anyone's interested. Thank you. Awesome. And if anyone wants to connect with me, my podcast is called Sober Powered. That's my Instagram, my website.

And you can learn more about that at soberpowered.com. So thank you guys again so much for joining me today. Thank you. Thank you. This was really fun. And I think we accomplished what we hoped to, which was to show there's lots of different paths here. There's lots of different ways of feeling about this. And there is lots of solutions. Yeah. And whatever you try,

you can always try a different thing. And sobriety evolves as you keep going in it. Thanks so much, guys. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a monthly donation to support the One You Feed podcast. When you join our membership community with this monthly pledge, you get lots of exclusive members-only benefits. It's our way of saying thank you for your support. Now, we are so grateful for the members of our community. We wouldn't be able to do what we do without their support, and we don't take a single dollar for granted. To learn more, make a donation at any level, and become a member of the One You Feed community, go to oneyoufeed.net slash join.

The One You Feed podcast would like to sincerely thank our sponsors for supporting the show. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure?

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