The One You Feed - Spring Washam on Deep Transformation

Episode Date: September 1, 2020

Spring Washam is a well-known meditation and dharma teacher based in Oakland, California. She is a founding member and core teacher at the East Bay Meditation Center located in downtown Oakland. She is the founder of Lotus Vine Journeys an organization that blends indigenous healing practices with Buddhist wisdom. In addition to being a teacher, she is also a healer, facilitator, spiritual activist, and writer. Spring is considered a pioneer in bringing mindfulness-based healing practices into diverse communities and is committed to enriching the lives of disenfranchised people everywhere.In this episode, Spring Washam and Eric talk about how we can foster deep transformation within ourselves and our world.But wait – there’s more! The episode is not quite over!! We continue the conversation and you can access this exclusive content right in your podcast player feed. Head over to our Patreon page and pledge to donate just $10 a month. It’s that simple and we’ll give you good stuff as a thank you!In This Interview, Spring Washam and I Discuss Deep Transformation and…Her book, A Fierce Heart: Finding Strength, Courage, and Wisdom in Any MomentBalancing action and contemplationFocusing on what you are fighting for (not just what you’re fighting against)Her constant, daily practice of forgivenessUprooting greed, hatred, and delusion to heal her heart and mindHer profound experiences of interconnectedness Why she takes things far less personally now but still feels the pain of lifeThe deep shift in the heart that transforms someone into an antiracistHer Sunday program: The Church of Harriet Tubman & The Underground Railroad CrewConnecting to our ancestors and learning from historyHow no one is exempt from the 10,000 joys and the 10,000 sorrows of lifeThe way faith in a bigger, loving force can lead to beautiful transformation when pain in life happens to usThe lawful unfolding of the universeWaking up to our innate Buddha natureTransforming difficulty into growthGiving our suffering meaning for transformationDropping into the body to feel the energy and find the blocks in the heartGetting curious when we feel triggered Being afraid of our feelings blocks our transformationMeeting our numbness with loving self careDeveloping self-compassion and compassion for othersSeparation being at the core of many of our woundsThat our whole journey is about letting goSpring WashamLinks:springwasham.comThe Church of Harriet Tubman & The Underground Railroad CrewTwitterInstagramFacebookBLUblox offers high-quality lenses that filter blue light, reduce glare, and combat the unhealthy effects of our digital life. Visit BLUblox.com and get free shipping and also 15% off with Promo Code: WOLFTalkspace is the online therapy company that lets you connect with a licensed therapist from anywhere at any time at a fraction of the cost of traditional therapy. It’s therapy on demand. Visit www.talkspace.com and enter Promo Code: WOLF to get $100 off your first month.If you enjoyed this conversation with Spring Washam on Deep Transformation, you might also enjoy these other episodes:Soring Washam (2017 Interview)Sarah BlondinSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Maybe it's just my heart that believes in it, not my mind. With my heart, I know that being kind and being just and compassionate is freedom. I just know it. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like, garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do.

We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction. How they feed their good wolf. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden.

And together, our mission on the Really No Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor what's in the museum of failure and does your dog truly love you we have the answer go to really know really.com and register to win 500 a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition sign jason bobblehead the really know really podcast follow us on the iheart radio app apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Spring Washam, who was also our guest on episode 191, way back in the day. Spring is a well-known meditation and dharma teacher based

in Oakland, California, and she's the founding member and core teacher at the East Bay Meditation Center. She is the founder of Lotus Vine Journeys, an organization that blends indigenous healing practices with Buddhist wisdom. On this episode, Eric and Spring discuss many things and cover a lot of ground, including her book, A Fierce Heart, Finding Strength, Courage, and Wisdom in Any Moment. Hi, Spring. Welcome to the show. Hi, Eric. It's so great to talk with you again here. Yeah, it's such a pleasure to have you back on again. Your latest book, which is called A Fierce Heart, Finding Strength, Courage, and Wisdom in Any Moment is wonderful. And

goodness knows we can use some strength, courage, and wisdom collectively right now. So we'll jump into all that in a minute, but let's start like we always do with a parable. There's a grandmother who's talking with her grandson and she says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops. He thinks about it for a second. He looks up at his grandmother. He says, well, grandmother, which one wins? And the grandmother says, the one you feed.

So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. Yeah, I love that parable. I've used it in talks and it's just so relevant. I think for my life right now, it really is, especially during these times is every day. What are you choosing to focus on? You know, there's so much fear and anxiety around us and, you know, but yet we can focus on our practices.

We can focus on helping people. We can focus on positive energy. It's really a choice, you know. Heaven and hell is right there, and it's just a mind state away for most of us. So choosing to practice and to follow a path that leads to happiness. So that's really what that parable is about. Who wants to be a bad wolf in a way? It's kind of suffering in that path, actually. Right, right. Yeah, I want to jump right in kind of with a little bit of what's happening in the world right now. And I'm always really interested in, I'm just framing this up for kind of the overarching ideas, I'm always

really interested in the role and the balance between action and contemplation, you know, between our internal practice and our outer work in the world, right? And you give a really compelling story near the end of your book, where you talk about very shortly after Trump was elected at your sangha in Oakland, which is primarily a sangha that has a lot of people of color, a lot of people who probably felt very disenfranchised by the results of that election. And that you've got 200 people in the room and you guys are working on your practice and outside, you know, people are starting to riot and protest. And I thought that was a really powerful encapsulation of these two energies in us, the energy to practice,

to do our internal work, as well as the external work that happens out in the world. And so I just kind of would like to start there with you and how you balance and think about those two aspects of life. Yeah, I mean, that's really a very powerful question. And I think in spiritual communities, people don't know how to balance that all the time, right? They maybe take a stance of, oh, well, I'm being a quantumist. So I'll just stay here and meditate. And, you know, I sort of ignore the relative reality, I'll go to the cosmic reality, ultimate reality, which is true, right? We have these two truths that we have to navigate, which is this conventional karmic level. And then we do have, we are made of stars. We are just

energy. So we really have to balance that. And I think that that's really key. And in the Buddhist tradition, they talk about these two great truths and you have to live in that paradigm of this earth experience, this relative level, social security numbers, police brutality, you know, you can't escape that. If you live too much in ultimate reality, you tend to be like, well, you know, everything's changing, why try to do anything? You know, who cares about the polar bears? You know, everything is everything. And you get, actually, you lose a certain amount of compassion. It's not really integrated. And then if you're too much in the relative karmic level reality, you can get be too bitter and attached. And you forget that we're the space too, you know, that this is just a moment in time and we get too attached and too fixated on that being the only truth. So in some

ways I try to have my foot in both worlds here. And often my motivation to go out into the world and do things is often motivated by compassion. This desire that I have to alleviate suffering when it's internal in myself and when it's in the community or something's happening. You know, so I often say I'm not doing anything. It's compassion that wakes up every day and moves. It's an energy that it tends to itself. It's like if you were sitting there and somebody fell down in front of you, your immediate response would might be to go grab them, right? Like, like a child or something. You don't have to think about that, right? It's just, it's an energetic response to something that's about to happen. And so for me, that's really how I experienced the work that I

do in the world. It's like, I just wake up and the movement is there. It's going in that direction, you know, to help others or to provide support. I care about the suffering around and I want to try to alleviate it, even though it's enormous. Right. You know, it's like, oh, I'll just get my little scoop and start digging in, you know, and I just it's just how I am. It's just how I'm made. I don't even question it anymore. framing up these challenges of racism, sexism, homophobia, all these things that are out there. You've got a couple of lines here. You said, we can do our activist work by calling on the forces of truth and love. That is what we are for. And you really talk about, in that sense, about being for something instead of against everything. Talk a little bit about that. You know, I founded the East Bay Meditation Center, co-founded it with some friends almost

14 years ago. And now we're in downtown Oakland, that center, filled up with the activist movement, right? So we had people of all, you know, feisty and it was social justice, you know, place. Oakland has always been a sort of a catalyst for social change, social movement historically, you know, place. Oakland has always been a sort of a catalyst for social change, social movement historically, you know, over the last decades. And so I had many years working with communities of color and activist communities, and I saw the high levels of burnout. And being so rooted in the Buddha's tradition, I realized that unless you, you know, you save the world or you say you're an environmentalist, you help the world because you love it. You want to help save the trees, love the trees. You're moving from that place, not against what's happening. It's like a different

frame of mind, how we approach our work. Because if we do it in a dualistic way, if I believe everyone's my enemy and I move with this aggression out on the streets or online or in the world for a just cause, I'm part of the problem of it in an unconscious way and myself suffer. And I saw the level of sadness and burnout. Many people came to retreats or to meet with me or classes, and they were just at the brink, you know, of breaking down. And then that does no one good, you know? So challenging in that way. Yeah. You talk a lot about forgiveness. I'll just read a short section here. You said, as an African-American woman, practicing forgiveness keeps me from being consumed by anger. People die from hatred.

I beg you not to become one of them. Forgiving everyone for everything is my only practice these days. The heart wants to be free. And the only way is by letting go of the resentments we carry from the past. And so that's a beautiful sentiment. How does forgiveness also blend with still fighting for change? Well, again, I really have to rely on so many years of studying Buddhist psychology, Buddhist philosophy, following His Holiness the Dalai Lama, and many Buddhist teachers, Thich Nhat Hanh, that were also great spiritual practitioners, but great activists. You know,

great spiritual practitioners, but great activists, you know, his holiness leading the people out of Tibet, a genocide, right? Or I can look at Nelson Mandela in South Africa or Thich Nhat Hanh being kicked out of his country over, you know, the Vietnam war and the communism and the suffering of the government inflicting on people, innocent people, various types of human rights abuses. lifting on people, innocent people, various types of human rights abuses. And so for me, I really model myself after those great elders. The fight really within the Buddhist tradition is against greed, hatred, and delusion. We are uprooting that in all of its forms. And that's what we have right now, an epidemic of greed. You know, hatred is kind of like whoa it's

unleashed here we are back in the civil war times we've gone totally back in time i mean we're debating confederate flags soldiers you know we're we're back in it and and then just delusion yeah i mean look at how much delusion's out there. You know, it's just conspiracy stories, you know. So those are the things that as a Dharma practitioner, as someone who is looking to heal my heart and mind, I've had many spiritual experiences on the Buddhist tradition in South America, studying with shamans, that I have had a very profound experience of interconnectedness that went so deep that I saw myself as, you know, we're cells in the mind of a great being, right? Do you call it energy or the field or quantum theory, right? And so we come from a single source.

So I think one of the things that people appreciate about me that's a little bit different voice is that when I'm talking to people, I feel the interconnectedness, even if we're coming from very different perspectives, even if one of my brothers wants to hurt me in some way, because they don't recognize me as connected to them, right? It's somewhat easier for me to have a dialogue or hold the complexity of it, because I see it more as mind states. It's not so much an individual, it's a movement of greed, a movement of hatred, a movement of delusion. It's like, you know, people are just responding to their mind. So I guess in some ways, those experiences

have fundamentally changed how I have these conversations. And I think it helps because I take things far less personally, even though it's painful. It doesn't mean it's not painful. less personally, even though it's painful. It doesn't mean it's not painful. It just means that I don't have that attack back like I might have when I was a lot younger. Yeah, I love that. And that idea of greed, hatred, and delusion, you know, I am a pretty serious Zen practitioner, and we do the great vows for all. And the second one, you know, various translations, but greed, hatred, and ignorance rise endlessly. You know, they're going to goes on to say, and I, I vow to abandon them, but I love that idea that they rise endlessly.

Cause it just gives me like, yep, that's what happens in me and in others. Greed, hatred, and ignorance. They just, it just keeps coming, you know, and we can transform it in ourselves to a certain degree, but it's just there. And I just, I always find that a helpful, helpful reflection. And I think you've done a nice job of articulating just now and in the book, that, that piece that I'm always trying to hold both in mind, which is the absolute view that says, Hey, things are perfect and perfect doesn't mean all good. It just sort of means, at least in

the way it's often used, they're complete. They are as they are, you know, but there's a deep underlying reality that is okay. And we have this really screwed up reality that a lot of us exist in and holding both those things. I find such an interesting practice, but it's the people that can hold both that attract me. It's the people that can hold both that I look at and I go, that's the wisdom I want. Because if I just have one, I think, like you said, if you only have the absolute, people do. They get very callous to me. You just seem to not care. Like, well, yeah, of course that awful thing is happening to that person.

But that's just God in costume playing out the drama. I'm like, well, maybe yes, but also still hurts, you know? And then people on the other hand, go to the other extreme and only see the problems. I feel like, well, there's a big part of wisdom they're missing. So I think you do a really nice job of integrating and talking about both those things that I find really inspiring. Yeah. And being compassionate and being understanding doesn't mean less active. It means actually you're more effective in a lot of ways because people can hear you. This has to be a revolution of the heart right now. And I keep reminding all these people involved in the civil

rights, this new evolution of civil rights. And, you know, there's a lot of attacking of even teachers and it's like, oh, you guys, this is a heartfelt revolution. We cannot beat someone into being anti-racist. You know, it just is never, it has to be a deep shift in the heart. And so I think hopefully we'll, we'll move into that sort of second level of this experience that we're all having collectively as we grow, you know. I hope so too. I see the same sorts of things and I just think hatred and despair and anger, they're just not energies that, that lead to healing of any sort. And they, they, and ultimately, just not energies that lead to healing of any sort. And ultimately, they consume us,

they destroy us. And so I do think, very similar to you, I think it's, we've got to find our way to come from a strong, centered, heartful place. What matters to us? Like you said, what are we fighting for? Not always, what are we fighting against? Yes. And that means you could stand fully at a protest line, but your experience is different. Right. I like that some of the footage I saw yesterday was of Oregon, a group of mothers out there. They were very calm. Yeah. Right. They're like, well, the moms are here, you know, and there they, you know, and they weren't, you know, hitting things or yelling, but they were just present. You know, that kind of movement is what will stop things.

And I understand all the emotion. I do understand all the emotion. It hurts to see what's happening. It really, really does. We want a just world and our hearts want justice. And we want everyone to have a sense of equality and safety and living lives of prosperity and freedom. And so it does hurt to see what's happening. So we hold that as well, you know.

Yeah. You were mentioning some of the elders that you have learned from, but there's an elder who is a great inspiration to you right now that I thought we could spend a couple minutes on, who is Harriet Tubman. Yes. You know, I have this magic going on right now with Harriet Tubman. It started a couple of months ago, maybe just two months ago, where it was right before George Floyd was killed. It was like maybe two days before that. And my sister and I had this really weird experience. So similar to a lot of people. We were out walking in a neighborhood here in California, in West Marin, and a woman, we were just like hiking, walking down a road, and she really started harassing us, telling us there had been break-ins in the neighborhood, and here my sister and I are like laughing,

walking. It was like, whoa, we were actually, I can't believe,'re, is this racism? You know, we were just so, I mean, we knew it, but it was like, and I remember right after that, I had this dream where a soul power fly was running down a dark road. And you know how we always have in dream analysis, there's always like, we're being chased or falling very classic, right? So I'm being chased and I'm running down a road and I'm holding on to the back of Harriet Tubman's jacket. And I can tell we're being chased, right? It's that sense of, Harriet, get me out of here. I remember saying that and holding on to the back of her jacket. And she's leading me down this road and it's all dark. I can't see anything. We're at night and I'm just trusting her with every ounce of my being.

Like she's navigating and she says, I'm going to get you out of here. And then I had a series of feeling her spirit constantly around me. Like I would, I would see images in my mind. I was constantly thinking about her and I was like, wow, I feel like Harriet Tubman spirit is with me. And so, you know, for me being also a shamanic practitioner, that's not that far fetched. But so I was talking to a friend and I said, you know, I feel so inspired by Harriet Tubman and the Underground Railroad. I'm going to do a five week class called the Dharma of Harriet Tubman and the Underground Railroad.

Right. And we put them, you know, Siddhartha Gautama leading to freedom, Harriet Tubman leading people out of, you know, down the Underground Railroad. And I just started studying and the class was such a big deal. Hundreds of people were on the Zoom. People were forwarding it, loving it. And then so I decided to continue. So I have a Sunday class and I named it the Church of Harriet Tubman, bringing together Dharma and social justice, right? Yeah. And I talk about Harriet Tubman in a way that is uplifting because what I feel is that people

that we can embody the spirit of being conductors. Isn't that what we have to be right now? Either you're a conductor in your living room with your family, or maybe you're leading a class, but how do we become conductors? So it was a very uplifting way to share information about how to stand up with Dharma, with embodying the qualities of courage. You want to talk about a fierce heart. My God, I cannot believe the stories about Harriet's life are, I mean, I would have thought they were made up. I mean, I really don't, I can't imagine a more powerful Bodhisattva actually.

So I've been very inspired by Harriet and I get letters from people telling me their kids are dreaming about Harriet and there's a whole wave of her energy. You know, she was supposed to be on the $20 bill. I was going to say, yeah, maybe we'll get our $20 bill. Which seems weird and cool. At the same time, when you look at the actual bill, you can Google it and you can see the mock-up. It's like, wow, that is a mind bender, right? Totally. It's like, wow, that is a mind bender, right? Totally. It's so cool, though. I love it.

Yeah. So I'm encouraging people to connect to their ancestors and these great ancestors of ours, because there's so many people I'm learning about. You know, right now we're studying history, right? We're learning about who is that statue over there? Wait, why do we have a slave trader on the top of the library in Minnesota or whatever? And it's just something very joyful. So it's full of gospel music, great dharma. We're evoking the power of Harriet and everyone's feeling empowered. So that's the idea, not to feel deflated. Send me the link and we'll put it in the show notes for sure.

Because I feel like there's a mission right now to stop people from falling into despair. Yes. And to give the mind something positive. Even my mind needed this. And then my publisher got on the call just to come on the class and said, oh my God, you've got to write a book about this. So now I'm writing this book about me and Harriet. And that's great. That's great. So it will continue on my journey with this great ancestor that everyone should just check out and be inspired by. So transitioning more to our interior lives a little bit, you use a phrase in the book

often that one of your core teachers, Jack Kornfield, uses all the time, which is one of my favorite phrases to reflect upon, which is the 10,000 joys and the 10,000 sorrows. And you say, none of us is free from either. Yeah, I mean, it's so true. No matter who you are, if you're rich, you got rich people's sorrows. If you're poor, you got poor people's sorrows. No one is exempt. We're all living these lives that are impermanent. And materiality will never lead to freedom.

We know that. So no matter how much you buy or surround yourself with, you know, we have these experiences. People we love die. There's change, you know, times of loss, times of gain, times of being attacked, times of being worshipped. You know, we have this complexity, don't we? It's never just all good. Yeah. Yeah. I just find that such a helpful reflection. Like, yeah, we all get the 10,000 joys and the 10,000 sorrows. Like it just normalizes it for when we're struggling. It just goes, oh yeah, this is what happens. Yeah. And it humanizes us. I mean, we have what, 7 billion people on the

planet all just trying to be happy. And we all have similar setbacks. Some deal with way more though. I will be honest, the challenges are enormous. And sometimes somebody could have everything in the world and have the most suffering mind. You know, it's again, you get this burden by being born and living this experience. And that's why I always say it's school to deal with it. All life is school, you know, and these hard chapters that we're on right now, you know, soon there'll be joyful chapters. And some are having joy in the midst of all of this. You know, some feel excited. You know, I can see that position very much. Thank you. I'm Jason Alexander.

And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you.

And the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Brian Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park.

Wayne Knight, welcome to Really No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really No Really. Yeah, really.

No really. Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called really no really. And you can find it on the I heart radio app on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Your book is called a fierce heart. And one of the things that you say is that cultivating a fierce heart is about learning to embrace it all, even the most painful aspects of our lives, and that we have to open up to everything in order to transform it. And so I wanted to spend a little bit of time talking about that because one of the questions I'm always so interested in is really difficulty tends to do one of two things to people, a lot of difficulty. It tends to either transform them into more powerful,

more compassionate and better people, or it makes them bitter and mean and broken. And I'd love to talk about in your mind, what causes somebody to be able to go down that path of transformation versus the path of sort of being defeated by our difficulties. Well, I have one word for that, that I've seen in a lot of people because often I'm very interested in that because don't we love a hero story? We love the story of the beaten down, the one against all the odds,

that shot up out of the mud kind of thing. And we love that. That's very archetypal in our Western mythology. We love that. Faith to me is a determining factor in how you deal with challenges. If you have faith that your life, that the universe is a loving place, that everything is for your growth, that there is a law that we're surrounded in love and compassion. If you have some faith in that, you will grow from the experience. If you find that you have no faith, maybe someone doesn't believe in anything, non-existence,

nothing matters, love doesn't exist, then that experience will turn you very bitter. You'll follow the bad wolf path and you will act out and create more pain and suffering. But if you can use that trauma or that abuse as something, and you believe that there is a loving force, I think that's the key to it. When people really believe that they can often, not all the times, but click into using that difficulty, overcoming that difficulty, and then actually using that as a catalyst to create change in their community themselves, how they see themselves, the work they do. So for me, that's a big factor that I see in people of all faiths, any, you know, Buddhism, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, if you can find that, you will rise out of it and you will learn and you will grow and you'll be better for that

difficult experience no matter how bad it was. Even if it takes you 20 years to heal from it, you'll see it as an experience that was important even if it was traumatic. You'll see it as a, it was a shifting moment. The life changed in that moment. And there was a road and we go left or we go right. Very clearly from that, we spiral down or we spiral up, you know, and maybe we go down and then up, you know, that's okay. It's okay to go rock bottom. Sometimes that's a beautiful road too, right? We have to bottom all, there's only one place from the bottom, right? And a lot of people go down the dark path.

There's important teachings on the dark path too. The path of suffering and pain, you can learn there. But faith for me, faith in something bigger that's good. That is a huge motivation. And I have tremendous faith. And what does Dr. King says? The long arm of the universe bends toward justice. The long arc bends toward, you know, and so we just have to hang in there.

And faith also gives us patience. When I have faith, I'm willing to be patient and try to take it slow and be patient with my difficulties and my suffering and the burdens that are, you know, the things that happen that we don't want. We have patience knowing things will change. That is the nature of this experience. Nothing stays the same. So we have this divine patience that faith brings with that. I think faith is a really interesting thing. And you said something just there and you say it several times in your book. And every time I hear it, there's an instant sort of rebellion against it, right? And it's this idea that the universe is for us. Because when we look at the world, we see lots of really awful things, right? And we can see lots of instances, like they were, you know, serially abused as a child

and murdered at nine, like, okay, it doesn't seem like they got the chance. So, you know, serially abused as a child and murdered at nine. Like, okay, it doesn't seem like they got the chance. So I also know, I think in a lot of Buddhist cosmologies, there is a, there's the idea that this goes on over and over through lifetimes. And is that where part of your feeling of good and faith comes from is that if we only see it through this very short window of time, we might go, well, it's hard to see how any things are working for the good for us. But if we look at it with a longer timeline, and that timeline might even encompass multiple lifetimes, is that sort of where you get that faith? Yeah, I do. You know, I really do believe that the universe everything unfolds lawfully and i've been deeply the the the core of

the dharma is this lawful unfolding of seeds we plant grow and who we can't really understand for all of us who can fathom an eight-year-old being born and being abused their whole life and dying right what causes that and then what causes an eight an eight year old to be born in a beautiful home and given all the opportunities? Well, I really think it does have to do with the lawful unfolding seeds sprout. Now, this doesn't mean that we don't care about the eight year old karma unfolds as it should due to causes and conditions. How do I know that the president's supposed to be the president right now? That's what's happening, right? It's like, there's a way in which we rest back and we trust that things are unfolding. Doesn't mean we don't stand up though. And I do believe in the concept of Buddha nature. I remember I was at my first Dharma retreat I ever had with Jack Kornfield. I was like, this was 25 years ago or something.

He gave a Dharma talk the first night at a 10-day retreat. And he said, you know, he came out and he said, oh, nobly born. Those of you who don't know Jack Kornfield, you maybe look him up. He's a great Buddhist-based teacher here in the Bay Area and just wonderful in so many ways, psychologist and kind of like a shaman in his own way. He said, Oh, nobly born, remember who you are. You're the daughters and sons of the awakened ones. And he gave a talk on Buddha nature. And it was like, you know, I love that view of we're all awake. We forgot though, you know, it's not like kind of like original sin, you're born bad, and you could crawl on your knees for 1000 years, it'll never be enough,

right. But it was this idea that, wow, you know, I'm asleep, because I could see those moments of Buddha nature every now and again, like this expanse of love or this, you know, but then it gets obscured. So I do believe because of that innate quality, even though it's so buried in some people, and all there is is greed, hatred and delusion, right? We know that gets in the way. But because of Buddha nature, and because of things happening, I believe lawfully. And that's why I think I'm okay with what's happening, even though it's painful, even though I'm trying my best to help. I see that it's due to causes and conditions far greater.

Vast time. This is one chapter in a great book. The Matrix has been here forever, I think. Right. And so here we are. Samsara, the Matrix circling again and again and again. I mean, I think on some level people can resonate with that been here, done that feeling, you know, like how we, doesn't it seem like we've been dealing with the racism for eternity? I mean, we just look at history. It's like, oh yeah, we have, you know,

we've gotten hundreds and hundreds of years now. And here we are in this moment, same place. Wow. Full circle. So I do have faith because of that. And maybe it's just my heart that believes in it, not my mind. It's just like with my heart, I know that being kind and being just and compassionate is freedom. I just know it. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a great way to say it is that my mind also can get very lost in looking at all the problems and going, well, how can that be? And, you know, I've told this story. It's not a story, but I've given this analogy on the show before that always works for me. Because when I try and think about like, what's the meaning of life? If you try and approach it intellectually, you can't. Because you're like, well, I'm one speck of a dust on a speck of a dust that exists for, you know, a flash of a second? How could any of that matter? And you made this analogy a little bit earlier, but like I walked outside my door and there was a dog laying there who had been hit by a car. Like I would know I had to take care of that dog and no intellectual argument, no amount of philosophy, no amount of anything could convince me that it didn't matter

to take care of the dog. And so that meaning for me has to come from a deeper place, the sense that it matters, that things matter. Yes. And I think that so many of our troubles in this Western world, you know, I spent half the year in South America, mostly I would be living there now had all this not happened, but I'm happy to be here in this time working on what I'm working on. It's a joy for me to do that. But one of the problem is, is that I think in the U S we're very disassociated from the heart, right? We live in our mind full of ideas and concepts and who's doing what, and we monitoring everyone else. We don't live in the body here. You know, like I was talking to

some friends in Ecuador and they look on our news and they see, you know, the protests of people against masks. And they said, but isn't it just a kind thing to do? Even if you don't believe it, you just, it's just like, you just do it because you care about others, you know, because they care about it. Or, you know, it's just, it's like a lack of connection. And I feel that even in the Buddhist communities, there can be this coldness where it becomes intellectual study. But it's not going into the deeper layers of the body for a real change to happen right now, for people to stand up to what's happening, for people to feel empowered.

The heart has to feel it. That's what takes you out into the world. You feel that push. It's not takes you out into the world you feel that push it's not a thought it's just movement the body has it it just gets up and there you are you're helping the dog you didn't even have to think about it you're getting the dog you're moving we have to be moved more from that place than all these head games that the eco mind plays endlessly yeah you know it's sad it's like we're lost in the story. That's the delusion part.

You know, it's like there's so much delusion. It's like, OK, you know, when let's just take care of each other. That's so basic. Right. Why is it so hard? That's the ego. Yeah. It's so hard to just be kind. I'm Jason Alexander.

And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you.

And the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Brian Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park.

Wayne Knight, welcome to Really No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really No Really. Yeah, really.

No really. Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You say, whenever I feel hurt or triggered, I get down on my knees and ask to see the lesson.

What is this painful situation showing me? And when I inquire with sincere interest in knowing, things that have been hidden reveal themselves and circumstances change. And I just love that because I do think that that's another one of the things that helps us transform difficulty into growth is to really at least, without using the idea that we're growing as a way to bypass the difficult situation, but if we can at least orient that way a little bit, all of a sudden our suffering has some meaning. And when it has meaning, it seems to have the opportunity to be transformative. Absolutely. I mean, I really believe that when I'm the most triggered by someone,

something has happened and I just feel crushed or very emotional or angry. It's like, well, wow, what is that? I get curious and I have a curiosity about my own mind. When there's something that's just caught and I'm just playing it again and I did that and I did that. If I just just settle into the body again, out of the mind, but into the body and I can listen and feel the energy, feel the rage, feel the fear, feel the outrage or the sadness that can accompany that. If I can drop into the body and become mindful of the energy in my body and keep inquiring what is the nature of this pain like where what is being not seen here I will find usually a huge attachment to something and then I'd love

to find these blocks in my heart I celebrate it you know it's like get a tangle out you know it's like I'm attached to this and I want that you you know, and I can find it. And then usually I can really investigate that through inquiry. Like, what do I think that's going to get? And I can usually see some big piece of just me, me, me, I, I, I. That's what I want, you know. So it's like if you're willing to investigate. But I'm also not so afraid of difficult emotions as much as I used to be. Some people are terrified of feeling

anything, right? I mean, isn't that what we're most scared of? Eric is our emotion. It seems to be. I mean, the worst thing that happens to us is thoughts and emotions for most people. And we're terrified. Oh, I don't want to feel that. No. And I think I understand that you have to get used to it. You have to get used to feeling you won't grow unless you're unless you start to be willing to feel and you know, so many people are so numb. You know, yeah. And and you talk about that in a really helpful way. Because, you know, my bigger challenge that I've experienced through my adult life has probably been more depression. And depression is more of a numbness, right? And I love that you talk about, I've got the actual quote here,

you said, numbness has to be met with the same loving self-care with which we meet anything else. This is a powerful practice. You're learning to feel, embody, and open. And I love that idea of how do I meet numbness? What is that actually like? Investigating it more closely. I find it a harder one to work with because strong emotion is easy for me to sort of just, I'm like, okay, I've got a lot of colors to work with here. You know, if I'm like doing a painting, I'm like, oh, okay, I got a lot of good colors. And then numbness, I'm like, oh, I have gray. I've got to make this painting out of gray. That's a harder painting to make. I loved what you said about that. The way to deal with it is the same loving self-care. Yeah. We have to be able to develop compassion, you know, and numbness happens in a lot of places.

It comes out a lot in relationships, right? When we marry someone and then we feel numb, we don't feel anything. We see things going, we become desensitized to everything. And it's just like, you know what it is, is this just a defense of the heart and mind. It comes a lot from people who have had trauma. They just disassociate. They're just not there. They're numb. They're disassociate. Can't feel what they have a hard time with empathy in those moments. That's when people like that are harsh on others for feeling right. And so they are learning. You have to be willing to explore your spiritual life. You have to be willing to put yourself out there. You can't just listen to other people's

spiritual lives. You got to put it into practice. You got to get on your road, you know, get in your boat and start, you know, navigating down the river. And it can be hard. You'll face emotion and you'll face the parts that are numb. And if you can develop compassion, that's when things get really interesting. Yeah. You know, self-compassion. I'm not talking about compassion for other people, it has to be rooted in how you respond to yourself. More and more, I find that lesson so important. And it's one that I feel like somewhere along the line, I learned fairly well self compassion. And as I work with a lot of people through coaching programs and different things, and I just more and more, I just keep seeing how important that element is, you know, how important self-compassion is in not just because

it feels better because it does, but also in actually being able to transform and change. It's a really key element. I mean, I didn't understand how deep compassion was when I was very young. My Tibetan teachers, you know, that is a core practice. My teacher, Minja Rinpoche, did two, three-year compassion retreats, you know, and they used to always like compassion, compassion. And, you know, first, we don't know what it means. And we're just kind of imitating, right? We're like, okay, have compassion. Okay, I'm going to try. I'm going to try. But over time, you start to see that it's a skillful response, that it is the most skillful response. Now, again, it doesn't mean that action's not required. No, you can feel tremendous compassion and then

immediately follow through with actions that need to happen internally and externally again. But internally, to be able to meet your pain with some degree of friendliness or care. You know, this is unbelievably hard for people, Eric, I taught, you know, retreats on compassion and loving kindness meta. And it was an all out battle for some people. It was like, I can't feel anything spring day after day, you know, I'd be meeting with students, I'm just frozen. I can do it for my cat, but not me. It's a little alarming, actually, when you look into someone's eyes, and you know, they have all those symptoms, anxiety, depression, not feeling despaired, not wanting to live, you know. And so how do we get that movement happening? Because people don't grow up with

these teachings on compassion at all. This is, I can't really blame them. That's not what you're learning as a child. Most people, you know, we don't learn that in high school compassion class, you know, seventh period, let's practice that really comes through search. It's not something we medicate people here. We, you know, doctor them in other ways, but we don't know emotional intelligence. And I think that that is coming. I have a feeling a mental state of those people in this country is going to get so much more fragile.

And how do we meet that? How do we help that? I agree. You say that as wisdom grows, we see that we can't control life's unpredictability no matter how hard we try. People who crave control have the hardest time on this path because the whole journey is about letting go. It's so true. Control freaks can't meditate. There's not a lot of faith. I have to do it. Nothing's going to just happen on its own. There is no flow to this. There's no intelligence behind anything. I'm the intelligence. I'm the doer. And that mind is the most difficult on a spiritual path. It's the most difficult to break through to see that there is this profound intelligence happening. Right now in our bodies, there's incredible intelligence happening. found intelligence happening right now in our bodies. There's incredible intelligence happening, right? It's like, it's everywhere. It's the atmosphere's intelligence, right? How the sun

rises and the moon then rises and the tide and everything's connected, working together, but people don't feel connected to that. And I think one of the biggest core wounds is this separation from source, the separation from the tribe on some level, right? This constant feeling of, I don't belong. I'm not included. You know, I was talking to my friend Alberto Veloto, a shaman from Chile, written a lot of books on all these topics. And he said, we were having a conversation. I said, what do you think it is in the Western mind that's so rooted in this suffering? He said, oh, it's their mythology. And I was like, well, what do you mean by that? He said, well, think about the Western mythology. Where does the story start? Adam and Eve thrown out of heaven. And that's where the begins. We're

outside of something. And we feel this kind of bizarre separation all the time that leads to this over heightened control and this despair of where do I belong? You know, this loneliness from that. Yeah. Yeah. I think control is such a big thing and you're right. This has been a big part of my journey. The last, really the last couple of years more so is really like, what do I trust in? What do I have faith in? You know, we really have to find that for ourselves. What is it that I trust in that I have faith in? Not what somebody else trusts in, not what somebody tells me I should. And sometimes we have to start really basic with that. I remember when I came back to AA the second time, I had been sober about eight years and things went really wrong in my life with a divorce. And I sort of had this fake faith. I tried to believe what people

told me I needed to believe in order to get sober. And I got sober. But when things got really hard, I realized that faith wasn't there. And when I came back, I was like, I've got to find my own faith. I don't know what I believe in. I had to start kind of small, like, well, I believe in this group of people that if I'm around this group of people, I'll do better. Oh, I believe in, I had to start kind of small, like, well, I believe in this group of people, that if I'm around this group of people, I'll do better. Oh, I believe in, you know, and I just found my way. But it's a question that comes up again and again for me, because I think you're right. There is this weird balance in the spiritual life of, you know, in Zen, we talk about, we talk about great faith, great doubt, and great determination. And I find all three of them

interesting. And what you're describing is a lot of people approach the spiritual path with the great determination. You've got to have that. You've got to have a determination that says, I'm going to practice. I'm going to do this. As you said, I'm going to get in my own boat, and I'm going to row. There's an amount we have to bring of ourselves to that. But then there's also the great faith that we have to have. And what is that faith in? And I think that's an important point because it's hard. Control is one of those things in AA we used to say all the time, you know, let go and let God. And I would go, but I don't believe in God. I don't believe that if I let go of this, anything's going to pick up. Like if I set the relay baton down, I don't have any

faith anything's going to pick it up. And then I finally hit a point where I went, well, you know what? It's just putting it down that's important. Even if nothing picks it up, it's better than me crushing it in my hand. It's the holding on that makes me sick. And so I think that that control, what you said there is so important because the whole journey is about letting go. And so I think that that control, what you said there is so important because the whole journey is about letting go. And I think I just keep sort of learning that for myself, like more and more unlearning, letting go, letting things fall away. I completely agree with you. And, you know, for people who are just starting and thinking about the word faith and thinking it has a set definition, you know, that's something scary. That word is intense,

you know, it's like, Oh, no, here comes the bumper is gonna hit me in the head. I went through all that, you know, but I look at it as like, just faith in the good of my own heart. It's also like everything you're being it's nothing outside. It's like you, it's everything is you there is nothing but you know, your experience here. It's all our minds, you know, but it's like you, it's everything is you. There is nothing but, you know, your experience here. It's all our minds, you know, but it's like faith that you, that your heart is good. There's goodness there. And I believe in that. And I think that's what used to get me up out of bed. You know, it's like, no, I believe in this love for myself and others.

And I'm going to follow that. And you could just look at the intelligence of nature, go to nature, take refuge there, like the mystery of the forest and how everything flows and just sit by the trees and listen and you'll start to answer that question, right? It's not going to come from outside. It comes from you. It is you, you know? And so I would take refuge in kindness, like, you know, because plant those seeds and they grow because everything is about planting seeds. That's the law of causality. You plant that, you get that. No matter how bad you want something else, you can't get apples and lemon seeds, you know, no matter how much you wish for

it. You've got to have that sense that your life matters, that you're part of some cellular living system. It's like the trees in the forest, they're all talking to each other in different ways. I mean, this is real now. So why wouldn't you be connected to that? You know, the great mystery, we're woven in. How could we not be? Yeah. Yep. Well, that is a beautiful place to wrap up. Have faith in your own heart, in nature, and in kindness. Beautiful way to wrap it up and tie it up. You and I are going to spend a few minutes in the post-show conversation because I want to talk about a line. You say that the ultimate goal of the spiritual path is to uncover the ways we

imprison ourselves. So I want to talk a little bit about that. And listeners, if you're interested in the post-show conversation, once a week, many episodes with me where I share a teaching, a song, and a poem, and the joy of supporting the show, you can go to oneufeed.net slash join. Spring, thank you so much. It's been so fun to have you back on and connect again. Oh, it's been so great to chat with you. And as always, it's an honor. I love it. Thank you. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a monthly donation to support the One You Feed podcast. When you join our membership community with this monthly pledge, you get lots of exclusive members-only benefits.

It's our way of saying thank you for your support. Now, we are so grateful for the members of our community. We wouldn't be able to do what we do without their support, and we don't take a single dollar for granted. To learn more, make a donation at any level, and become a member of the One You Feed community, go to oneyoufeed.net slash join. The One You Feed podcast would like to sincerely thank our sponsors for supporting the show. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast

is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to reallyknowreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. The Really No Really Podcast.

Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.