The One You Feed - Susan Piver on The Four Noble Truths of Love

Episode Date: May 14, 2021

Susan Piver is a New York Times bestselling author of 9 books and a renowned Buddhist teacher. Her book, The Four Noble Truths of Love: Buddhist Wisdom for Modern Relationships walks us through the Four Noble Truths of Buddhism as they apply to relationships.In this special episode pulled from our archive, Susan and Eric discuss her interpretation of the four noble truths and how she applies this wisdom to love and relationships.But wait – there’s more! The episode is not quite over!! We continue the conversation and you can access this exclusive content right in your podcast player feed. Head over to our Patreon page and pledge to donate just $10 a month. It’s that simple and we’ll give you good stuff as a thank you!Registration for the Spiritual Habits Group Program is open now! Visit spiritualhabits.net to sign up and learn more about how to bring forth real transformation in your life!In This Interview, Susan Piver and I discuss The Four Noble Truths of Love and…Her book, The Four Noble Truths of Love: Buddhist Wisdom for Modern RelationshipsThe emotions underneath fear, hatred, and greedDepression being a calcified sadnessThe four noble truths of loveFeeling your feelings without the story and ask yourself what it feels like in your body and environmentDifferences between anger and irritation in the bodyHow enormous space opens up when we drop expectationsThe threefold path: Precision, Openness, Going beyondThe role and importance of good manners and honesty in relationshipsOpening to the other person as they are in a relationshipIntimacy in relationships has no endHow you can’t think your way into intimacy or inspiration – they come when you make the spacePassion between two people will constantly arise, abide, and dissolveRelax with what is and space will open upHer interpretation of the concept of non-attachment/detachmentA spiritual practice frees people up to feel everything in the moment, as it isYour life IS the spiritual pathIn meditation we’re not trying to get anywhere, we’re trying to BE somewhereMeditating In’t about focusing on something but rather, bringing the brain down from some dreamworld into reality in the momentSusan Piver Links:Susan’s WebsiteFacebookInstagramIf you enjoyed this conversation with Susan Piver on The Four Noble Truths of Love, you might also enjoy these other episodes:Being Heart Minded with Sarah BlondinSusan Piver (2015)See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In case you're just recently joining us or however long you've been a listener of the show, you may not realize that we have over seven years of incredible episodes in our archive. We've had so many wonderful guests that we've decided to handpick one of our favorites that may be new to you, but if not, it definitely is worth another listen. We hope you'll enjoy this episode with Susan Pimer. You can't think your way into intuition or inspiration or knowing, but if you make space, it arises. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have.

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on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Susan Piver, who is here for the second time. She's a New York Times bestselling author of nine books, including the award-winning How Not to Be Afraid of Your Life and The Wisdom of a Broken Heart. Susan has been a practicing Buddhist since 1995 and graduated from a Buddhist seminary a Broken Heart. Susan has been a practicing Buddhist since 1995 and graduated from a Buddhist seminary in 2004. Her work has been featured on The Oprah Show, Today, CNN, and in The New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Money, and others. Her new book

is The Four Noble Truths of Love, Buddhist Wisdom for Modern Relationships. Hi, Susan. Welcome back to the show. Hi. So glad to be here. Thank you. Yes, we have had you on before. I don't remember which episode number it was, but it's been a while. But you have a new book out that we will explore in depth. But let's start like we always do with the parable. In the parable, there's a grandfather who's talking with his granddaughter, and he says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and

bravery and love. And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the granddaughter stops and she thinks about it for a second and looks up at her grandfather and she says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you wolf. And I'm a longtime Buddhist practitioner, as I think you know. And in certain schools of Buddhism, there's this idea that afflictive emotions have a positive flip side. And so I was thinking of what is the flip side of hatred and greed and anger, the three qualities you named? And what is the vulnerable part in those qualities? And how can we touch those vulnerable parts? Instead of running in fear from the bad wolf, can we somehow uncover the goodness of the bad wolf in some way? makes me think of something that you say in the book that sort of caught my attention. And it was that underneath other emotions like anger or rage and fear and all that is sadness. And that sadness is a more tender emotion that we can work with. And what I wanted to ask you about that is that

my experience seems to be that sadness is the emotion that is relatively easy for me to access. And that certainly I have had people say before that my depressive condition looks more like anger turned inward. And so I'm just kind of interested in what you think about about what I just said, because they're kind of different approaches to that thing, or a different way of looking at sadness versus anger. I think certain people have a tendency toward one or the other, or neither. You and I apparently both tend towards a depressive response to unhappiness. Some people respond with anger, which is their first response. And I think in both cases, a similar emotion underlies the response, which is some kind of fear or some kind of being hurt. Because the truth is we're vulnerable and we're fragile and we're sensitive, I think is a better word than fragile. and when something upsets us we want to turn it into something we can work with as opposed to just feeling the pain directly and anger is something you can work with it's

something you can turn on others it's something that you can express it obliterates everything actually and i just want to differentiate between depression and sadness because depression i think does something similar as anger does. Anger turns it outward, and like you say, depression turns it inward, but it also sort of calcifies it. I think of depression as a kind of calcified sadness. In both cases, anger and depression could be thought of, this is my experience, I'm not a therapist, but this is my observation, as unfelt sadness. Because sadness makes you feel so vulnerable. Once someone was interviewing Gloria Steinem, the feminist icon, I think I mentioned this in the book even, I'll never forget what she said when an interviewer asked her if she was depressed over the recent death of her husband. They'd only been

married a few years. And she said, I'm paraphrasing, I'm not depressed, I'm sad. And the interviewer said, what's the difference? And she said the most beautiful thing, when you're depressed, nothing has any meaning. And when you're sad, everything does. So when we turn towards sadness, we can enter the realm of reality, I think, a little bit more directly than when we turn it into something else, whether it's anger or depression. Yeah, I've always loved that quote. And I think it's interesting because my willingness to be sad, I think you're probably right, is a more recent phenomenon in my life. And probably as I was younger, that wasn't something I was looking to do. I like that idea of calcification. That's a good word for what depression feels like. It's almost like this really tight calcification. I like that. But let's turn to your book, which is called The Four Noble Truths of Love, Buddhist Wisdom for Modern Relationships. And as most listeners know, the Buddha expounded

four noble truths about life, and you have reinterpreted those to relationships. And so, I thought, why don't we just start with talking about what those Four Noble Truths are? The Four Noble Truths of Love, just as you suggest, are based on the Buddha's very first teachings upon attaining enlightenment. He taught four things, and the entire Buddhist path is based on these four things. And at one point in my marriage, we had hit a really bad period. And anybody who's been in a relationship knows what this is like. Everything seems okay. And then suddenly you can't get along. And we were in one of those phases where whatever one did, the other one

took offense. And we couldn't tell why we argued about the silliest things. We couldn't get along. And this went on for months. One day I was sitting at my desk. I was crying because I didn't know what to do. I had thought we loved each other and I thought I still did, but it seemed that there was nothing but coldness between us. So I was crying, and I had this thought upon wondering, I don't even know where to begin. I had this thought that said, begin at the beginning. At the beginning are four noble truths. And as a Buddhist practitioner, like I say, that meant something to me, but I wasn't sure what, because what do the Four Noble Truths have to do with my relationship?

So I sat and thought about it. And this is what I came up with. The first noble truth of love is that relationships are uncomfortable. They just are. If you've never met the person you're about to go on a blind date, it's uncomfortable. What if they don't like me? Or what if they do like me? Or what if I repeat all my old relationship patterns? And you haven't even met the person and it's already very uncomfortable. And if you fall in love, I mean, that's heavenly, literally heavenly. But it's also oddly uncomfortable because it's so intense and every moment is so fraught.

And every look and every word could have some extraordinary kind of meaning and you could spend a lot of time wondering what that expression meant and worrying that this is just going to disappear and then if you're in a long-term relationship it just so happens nobody really told me this that there's a lot of irritation people have habits people do things that trigger you, and they do them over and over again. And you just sort of live with this sense of, it's just hard to live with another person, even if it's, you know, there's certainly matters of degree, but it's just, it's hard. So that's the first noble truth, relationships are uncomfortable.

I want to ask you a question here about this, because this is a point that I am struggling with in my own life. And it's this, I get the general idea that we should, you know, resistance causes us a great deal of trouble, right? Now, I am somebody that that wrestles with being irritated, particularly by sounds and things that are around me. And I have this happen semi-often where I will find myself very irritated. And then I find myself thinking I should not be irritated. And I do this, I go back and forth between these two things. One is that I try and go, just allow the sound to be whatever it is, just let it be. Right? So I'm trying to decrease my resistance there and just let it go. Right? So I'm trying to decrease my resistance there and just let it go. Right? So that's one approach. And then I sometimes that works. And

often it doesn't. And then I go, okay, what I'm going to try and do then is just let my irritation be. And I never know which of those is more effective. And maybe the answer is the one that works at that moment. But I'm just kind of curious on your thoughts, because that's a dilemma that shows up often in when you're when you're talking about not resisting what's happening. So I guess just your thoughts on that. Yeah. And I share that, by the way, I'm auditorially very sensitive. And if two people start talking to me at once, I actually feel a temper flare.

Yeah, they're not doing anything wrong. But it does something to my nervous system that is uncomfortable. So I would say my approach is if you get irritated, it does not help to become irritated by the fact that you're irritated. You're just still irritated. You just changed the object. So I would say be irritated. But the key here is without the story of the irritation, because it's the story that actually causes more pain and suffering than the original, the presenting issue. So feel the irritation. Like, what does it feel like in your body? That's where most people feel it. Like, their chest gets tight or they feel their shoulders hunch. Some people feel it in the environment, like the actual environment feels

different. It feels combative or dark or whatever it might be. Place your attention on that. And when a story tries to arise, it says, well, if only people would be quieter or I shouldn't be irritated. Those are all thoughts. Just put those aside to turn toward the felt sense of the irritation. That tends to be more expeditious and also kinder to yourself. That doesn't involve any condemnation or self-improvement. You just feel it. And eventually it dissipates. Yeah, I think that's really good advice. It's funny. That is the one emotion. I've just recognized this very recently, but it is the one emotion that I am absolutely the most uncomfortable with. Because I think, you know,

sadness is sadness, even anger. You know, it's not one of my most comfortable, but usually if I'm angry, there's a reasonable, at least in my own brain, a reason, right? I can say like, well, this person is doing X or Y and this causes that. But with irritation, it's just this, like you said, the person isn't doing anything. I mean, they're doing absolutely nothing wrong and I'm seething, you know, and it, and it's, so it's the one that I am uncomfortable with because it feels completely unjustified to me. And I guess, you know, I get that my emotions have to be justified is that the root of part of that problem. I've just, I really let in the last week or two have noticed this. I don't think I've ever been able to put it quite together. What happens to me in those situations and how much worse I might be making it by the storyline, which is this is not okay. Well, I have something that I want to suggest, and this is my theory based on nothing, which should be the title of my next book, I think could be the title of all my

books. But my theory based on nothing is that the irritation that you feel and that I feel is not the same as being angry at someone for ignoring you or hurting you or doing something that you think is wrong. It comes from a different part of the organism. There's a psychological and emotional hurt of someone doing something upsetting to you. That's not the case here. I feel like this is a limbic system response in your nervous system, just fires. And then you attach a story to it but i think sound and you're i mean look what we're doing right now your life so much of it i imagine revolves around sound and there's a threat i think your limbic system perceives a threat and so when i get

irritated like that i try to think not of course i well, I shouldn't be irritated or why can't I be a nicer person? But I also try to think, well, something, some, although it does not make any sense and there is nothing threatening me right now, some part of me perceives a threat. So can I turn toward that part and just go, everything's okay, sweetie, let's just relax. okay, sweetie, let's just relax. You read about highly sensitive people, and that's the one thing, when I read about highly sensitive people, I went, that one is me right there. When they say that incidental noise is just, I really do have a very difficult time if there's a TV on in one room and another room,

or somebody's talking, or I just, when there's multiple sounds coming at me, I get, like you said, I almost just quickly get angry. Weird. Yeah. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like

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And Zoe Tillman, senior legal reporter. Courts are not supposed to decide elections. Courts are not really supposed to play a big role in choosing our elected leaders. It's for the voters to decide. Follow the Big Take podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I think we had just finished the first noble truth of relationships and we're about to hit the second. Yes, yes. Relationships are uncomfortable is the first noble truth because they never stabilize. That's something else no one ever tells you. And the second noble truth is that

thinking they should be comfortable and stable is actually what causes them to be uncomfortable and unstable. In other words, instability and change, that's a part of life. There's no feeling that is solid. Love and connection are always pulsing in and out of existence. They don't, it's not solid. So, okay, we have to live with that. We have to figure out a way to deal with that. But then we think, well, there's a problem here that we have to fix.

And when we fix this problem, either something small, like you're always late, please be on time, which may not be that small for some people, or something really big, like, I don't know, we don't seem to have much romance in our life, or I don't know, whatever you would want to call it. And if we could solve that problem, everything would be okay. And that's not true. We should all try to solve our problems and not just say the status quo with things that are upsetting. But the idea that if we solve this, we will be happy is, I think, the root of the most difficult discomfort. I just want to read something you wrote, because I think it says this very eloquently, but

we are always trying to get rid of the problems in our relationships. This is only human. However, expecting that upon doing so, you will finally be happy can cause a lot of confusion. Thinking that a relationship will finally come to rest in a peaceful place is actually what makes it uncomfortable. When that expectation is softened, an enormous space opens up. Yeah, an enormous space opens up is the thing because we stop holding each other sort of hostage, I think, to something, some idea about the way things should be and turn towards each other, which is the third noble truth of love, that meeting the discomfort and instability together is love. So instead of like, okay, you need to perfect this, you need to change that, I need to work on this. Okay, that's cool. All that's fine. I'm not trying to say that there's anything wrong with that.

that that's there's anything wrong with that but when things happen in a relationship that cause pain instead of looking at each other like what did you do to cause this or what did i do to cause this to turn away from each other and look at the problem itself look at the sort of weather front that you are in currently and to see it together. Oh, look, now we don't like each other. Now we really do. Now I like you, but you don't seem to like me. I'm not saying all of those are equally good because they're not. But to look at the cycling and be on the ride together, I would say that is loving, a loving thing to do. Yeah. And I want to read something else that you say about that, because I think that one is so, they're all powerful, but that one really resonates with me to that idea. And you say, what if instead of looking at each other accusingly, you shifted your gaze to the conflict itself together?

conflict itself together what if instead of telling the other how they need to change so that this will never happen again you could look at the problem as a kind of third entity that somehow landed in your house and is sitting on the couch next to you and i just think that can be so transformative another way to say that in a slightly different way is that like you guys are now on the same team and it's you as a team against the problem or, you know, looking at the problem. Right. And just that metaphor of like, okay, we're back on the same team. Um, I've just found that one to be really very helpful myself. And it's also the sort of thing that I've seen really transform a lot of other people. So I just wanted to, to read that because I just think it's such a powerful thing. That's awesome. And I love the way you said it.

We're on the same team. That's exactly the spirit of it. Yeah, it's so freeing. It doesn't mean that you don't have the problem. It doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt. It just means that you're on the same team, just like you say. Yep. So the fourth noble truth is that there is a way to do all of this. The Buddhist fourth noble truth is called the eightfold path right view right intention and

so on what i made up because i want everyone to know i made this up this is these teachings are in no sutra or tantra these are my interpretation so they must be vetted very carefully the fourth noble truth of love is that there's a threefold path and it is based on the sort of qualities that one cultivates in a sitting meditation practice and is one of the reasons why i think meditation and love are such natural allies so the three sort of steps on well how do you actually do these things and that sounds like a good idea, how do you do it? The first step is called precision. Like you have to create, use some sense of precision to create a foundation for your relationship or your meditation practice. In meditation practice, the precision

is that you focus on your breath or whatever your object is, but in most cases, it's the breath. And that establishes the foundation for your meditation. If you're not trying to place attention on the breath, and of course it strays and cool, you bring it back, you're not meditating. You're doing something else. So what is the corollary in a relationship that if you're not doing those things, even though you may be in the same house together, you're not having a relationship? Even though you may be in the same house together, you're not having a relationship. The precision here is to have good manners.

I know that may sound kind of superficial, but I don't mean know what fork to use. I mean be cognizant of the other person's presence, think of them, develop some awareness of them, and then some idea about what might be helpful to them, loving to them, kind to them, develop some awareness of them, and then some idea about what might be helpful to them, loving to them, kind to them, or that you don't want to do those things because you're mad at them, but at least you still have the awareness. Good manners is a very profound gesture of compassion, I think. And then also, of course, precision involves honesty. It doesn't mean blurting what you think whenever you think it. Skillful honesty means knowing the truth yourself and then knowing when you don't know it and so shutting up or not trying to make something up. So if you can't have good manners, meaning

thoughtfulness, and you can't be honest, I don't think you can have a relationship. You can have something else, but I don't think you can have a relationship. You can have something else, but I don't think you can have a relationship. Yeah, I was really struck by that in the book about good manners, because I've often felt like good manners are really important, but I've never been able to articulate it. And again, we're not talking about which fork to use, but you said the ground level of good manners may be among the most important of the qualities a person can have that make a successful relationship. True good manners are far from superficial. They're a sign that you're really paying attention to the other person and showing evidence of that in the way you act and speak. And I just, I love that because like

I said, I've always had this feeling about like, that's really important, but I could never really articulate it. I think it's hugely important. And it's great that you have that sensitivity to good manners, because honestly, I think of all the qualities you can bring to a relationship to make it successful. You know, you might think, oh, well, self knowledge or compassion or good sense of humor, whatever, I don't know. But honestly, I think good manners is the most important thing. I don't know. But honestly, I think good manners is the most important thing. It's certainly one of those things that if you don't have, it may not, you know, I don't know, you know, ranking things and importance, but it's certainly a baseline qualification for it to work. It seems like, you know, it's like one of those foundational skills.

Absolutely. And again, we're not talking about the fork, as we both said. We were talking earlier before this, and I told you I have a broken foot. And it's not a big deal, but at the same time, you can't do very much because you can't walk. And your hands are engaged in moving your body on crutches or on a scooter or whatever. So I can't really cook food. It's really irritating. So when my husband thinks of that, when he's coming home, and plan something, knowing that I have this, I cannot prepare the food, because I work at home. So I often do that anyway, that to me is and then make some plan for that, because I just find that to be so loving. And so that's what I mean by good manners, thinking of the other person and making some accommodation,

some space for them in your actions and your words. I think it's really loving. So the second piece here is called openness. And in your meditation practice, if you have one, you sit and you place your attention on your breath, and then that's it. You don't try to do anything else. You just allow yourself to be as you are. You open to yourself when you're speedy, when you're relaxed, when you're boring, when you're

violent, you know, in your mind, you experience all of that. You make room for yourself in this very un-American way of just being with yourself as you are. And in a relationship that translates to something quite shocking. I was quite surprised to find this, Eric, that, oh, there's another person here. This relationship isn't just about me. But openness here means considering the other person as having at least equal importance to yourself in the relationship. And it's easy for people that are very self-sacrificing to think that means they should be more self-sacrificing. I really don't mean that you should put yourself second. I do not mean that at all. I just mean to see, oh, we both are important here.

It doesn't mean, so me too, I'm important, and so are you. And having that willingness to look at the other person, not as a device that you have somehow, are trying to craft in the name of your own happiness, but as a being who you're sharing space with, sharing life with, feelings with, a date with, to open to them as they are. Of course, that is a very loving thing to do. And the third piece is called going beyond,

which is evoked in a meditation practice when you notice you're absorbed in thought, which is fine. It's not a big deal. You're not trying to stop thinking when you're meditating. Yeah, you get absorbed in thought. You see see notice that some kind of light goes off and you notice that and you let go you let go and when you let go there's a space and you come back you come back to your breath in meditation practice and you are constantly putting down conventional thought to return to a felt experience of the present moment, which is called the spiritual path. And it deepens. Every time you let go of thought to come back to the present, something deepens. In a relationship, we look at everything that happens to us as we often put it in a plus or minus column.

Good things are good, bad things are bad. Agreed. Totally agreed. But it so happens that everything that happens, the good, the bad, and the in-between, can be used, I have discovered, to deepen not romance, which always has an end. I'm sorry, may come back, but it'll end again. But intimacy, which has no end. There is no way that you can be, oh, we know each other now completely. Intimacy can always go deeper. You can always reveal more. You can always discover more. And I find that to be very inspiring and heartening because I can commit to that. I can't commit to love because sometimes I feel it and sometimes I don't.

But I can commit to intimacy. That is a vow that I can honor. I can honor. So that's the third quality of going beyond conventional ideas of love to deepen intimacy. But I want to make a very important caveat here, just for my own sake, probably, which is to say this does not include problems that are beyond the pale, which includes things like abuse and addiction. I was really careful in the book, and I really don't want anyone to think that, oh, I should tolerate any form of discomfort because that'll make me good at love. There are certain things that are not included, because not only can you not control them, but the person themselves probably has no say over them.

So addiction and abuse, emotional, physical, not included in this picture of love. No, I think that's really important to point out. And it brings up sort of a bigger question around approaching relationships in this manner. And I think it's a bigger question that just comes to how we approach life in general, right? And I'm sure listeners are tired of me touting how important the serenity prayer is, right? But in a relationship, it's that idea of like, what do I want to allow and deepen into

and allow to be the way it is? And in what circumstances does something need to be changed? Whether that be the relationship as a whole, like I should not be here, or all gradations of that, right? And that wisdom to know those two things can be, I think it's the thing that drives a lot of people crazy in a relationship, or particularly people that are in a challenging relationship, is that constant trying to figure out what should I do here? And near the end of the book,

you have some questions from listeners. And in one of them, you quote your mother when it comes to making decisions that the big decisions make themselves. And, you know, I mentioned to you before I had been in a difficult marriage. And what I realized was, I think I knew this isn't the right thing, right? But I was always in this spot of sort of evaluating that. And the only way I could stay sane at points, because I would look at and I go, okay, I'm not ready to go. So what I'm going to do is be here for this period of time, I'm going to pick three months, right? And if no new information, you know, new information comes in that changes things. But in

general, for this period of three months, I'm not going to pick this question up eight times a day. You know, I'm going to let that question sit and I'll revisit it again. And that was so helpful to me because that constant trying to figure it out. And that's part of what you're getting at with the four noble truths, right? Relationships never stabilize the thing, us thinking that we should. And so for me thinking, I should know the answer to some of these questions and relationships which are incredibly difficult thinking i should know the answer was a cause of great pain to me and relaxing into okay i'm here now and i'm gonna i'm gonna be here for this period of time was was ultimately really helpful to me. That sounds so smart and so kind to yourself and to your situation.

You sort of gave yourself some space because I totally get what you're saying. And it is so, it must have been so painful. And it's so difficult when you're in a situation where it just doesn't feel right. And you don't know what to do that. Everything that happens, you put in the pro or con column, you stop seeing the subtleties of your world, and you just see stay or go. But inspiration and knowing, knowingness and instinct, come from space. They come when you make space. You can't think your way into intuition or inspiration or knowing. But if you make space it arises and and you're very smart idea to just say well for three months i'm not going to pick up the question

creates that space so that that's an awesome story We've all been stuck inside for a year, living amidst the really difficult conditions of this pandemic. We've had to change a lot about who we are in order to adapt. And maybe we've developed some behaviors and ways of thinking that aren't really serving us very well. This time has also brought up some fundamental questions about who we are, what matters to us, and how we want to live our lives. These are spiritual questions, and they have a newfound sense of importance to many of us. As things are starting to open back up, now is the time for us to re-evaluate where we are and rethink our habits and goals. We need positive, supportive, and intentional paths forward. To do that, we could benefit from some support. We need positive, supportive, and intentional paths forward. To do that, we could

benefit from some support. We need to reconsider how our habits are helping us to become these new versions of ourselves. And that's why I've decided to again offer the Spiritual Habits Group Program, and it's open for enrollment from May 4th through May 25th. Go to spiritualhabits.net to learn all about it and sign up to join us. Translating what we know into what we do requires intentionality and skill, especially in the realm of spiritual principles like mindfulness, compassion, and perspective. When you use behavior change principles to put powerful spiritual wisdom into practice, the result is a set of transformational spiritual habits. Spiritual habits are things you do throughout your day to remember and take action on the

things that really matter, thereby experiencing greater meaning and connection. Spiritual habits build the bridge to a life where we thrive. Importantly, we learn spiritual habits best when we work with others. That is one of the core orienting principles of this program. When we work alongside other people who are building their own habits, we find inspiration, hope, and support for our own practices. In this program, we support one another. Because of how we structured the program, you'll build real connections, community, and friendships.

We offered this program a year ago, and I know of deep friendships that started at that time, which still exist today. Small groups that met then are still meeting now. Members of that community are still connected, still supporting each other. That's the type of community we're talking about here. So whether you're looking to develop a consistent daily meditation practice, or implement mindfulness practices into your life, or just to connect more deeply to what really matters, the Spiritual Habits Group Program will give you the tools you need to turn this wisdom into daily and sustainable practice. And you'll do so in a community where you belong and feel connected. If you join by Sunday, May 9th, you'll get access to the early bird bonus I'm offering,

which is an additional live 60-minute session with me on Sunday, May 16th. During this bonus session, I'll be teaching how to make time for spiritual habits no matter how busy you are or what you've got going on in your life. To learn all about the program and sign up, head to spiritualhabits.net.

That's spiritualhabits.net. I hope you'll join us. The other thing that you mention in the book, and I want to go back to kind of what you said before I sort of took us on a slight tangent, which was that intimacy is something that can always go deeper. And I love that idea that there's no end to that, that, you know, love is this thing. And, you know, a lot of times we think about romance, etc. And I want to read something that you wrote about passion, because I think this is really great. Passion between two people will constantly arise, abide and dissolve. Though this is a very difficult thing to navigate, I don't

think it is a problem. Wishing that you were in a different arc of the cycle, however, can be. When I read that, I was really, really struck by it. Because again, going back to your noble truths, all this stuff is always changing. And that's not a problem unless I'm only okay with a little part of the whole experience. And I'm determined that that's the part that has to stick around or there's a problem. Right. And of course, you know, different parts of the cycle feel better than other parts of the cycle. And if you're upset because you're in a part that you don't like, I don't think that's a problem either. But I don't think you should deny that or I don't think it's wrong to feel sad or upset or lonely or, or whatever you might feel. But I think this actually relates to what we were just talking about, too, because I love that you chose that quote, because it's sort of saying, relax, you can relax with what is. And in so doing, a space will open up. And then something interesting can happen.

But when we're constantly driving toward an outcome or, you know, sort of pounding an agenda. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal?

The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you. And the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Brian Cranston is with us today. How are you, too?

Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really No Really.

Yeah, Really No Really. Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. That space is gone. And so it's very limiting. Yeah, the quote that has come up in so many of the recent interviews, just because it just seems so relevant all the time right now, is the, I think it's Shinzen Young who said it, but it's a variation on something that, you know, thousands of people have said, which is that suffering equals pain times resistance. And when you were talking about, you know, there are parts of that cycle that are more pleasant than other parts, right?

So there's a pleasant part and there's a less pleasant part. The less pleasant part is less pleasant, but it really starts to become suffering when I resist it. Yeah. In Buddhism, there are many ways to talk about suffering. And one way is just ordinary suffering that is unavoidable. We're human beings. We have losses. We have disappointments, that you cannot avoid those things. But then there's something called the suffering of suffering,

which is what you add on to it by the way you react to it, or the way you think about it. So ordinary suffering hurts, unavoidable. But the part that we add on to it of making up stories about it or strategies for having it never happen again and pondering it, that is a kind of suffering that is optional. It makes me think of, we interviewed someone named Toni Bernhard, and she's a Buddhist teacher who's dealt with chronic illness her whole life. And she talks about physical pain. And she says, there's really three components to it. There's the sensation itself, right? Then there is what I'm telling myself about the sensation. And then there's what I'm telling myself about what it means.

And that two of those three, you can work with, you can affect the sensation. But two of the three types of things that would happen there that we consider to be suffering, can be worked with. And that same sort of analogy applies to everything. I think on the show, we've tended to say that's the difference between pain is unavoidable, it's what happens in life. and then suffering is that extra layer, whereas in your case, you're calling it suffering, and then suffering of suffering, it's about the same thing. And this leads me to something that you wrote that I really wanted to talk about, because I'm not a Buddhist teacher, but Buddhist ideas have influenced me very,

very deeply. And one of the things that people will say about Buddhism is that, you know, they'll hear the word non-attachment or detachment, and they will say, well, that's a cold thing. Like, what is life if you're not attached? You know, what kind of life is that to just be sort of, eh, about everything? And I'm going to let you elaborate on what you wrote here, but I'm just going to write what you wrote because I think it's a great place to start. And I never am able to answer this with people well, which is why I grabbed me. I was like, oh, I should remember that. But non-attachment does not mean you do not feel the joy and suffering of being human. Rather, it means to recognize that everything, every experience,

moment, idea, emotion, and form will arise, abide, and dissolve. Non-attachment is about staying on the ride no matter what. Exactly. Well, I said that, so I was just agreeing with myself. Of course, yeah. I didn't mean to sound that way. But I know exactly what you mean because I hear that too, people wondering, saying, oh, you shouldn't be

so attached when people get you know when someone gets upset about something which really pisses me off um and we think that non-attachment means sort of converting everything into an equal tone like a mid-range or not getting upset by upsetting things and, non-attachment means the opposite. It means feeling everything fully, directly, on the spot, and then moving on with it. Not too soon and not too late, but it means opening and feeling everything fully. It means the opposite of what most people think. This is my interpretation, which is a kind of reserve. It means going way toward what you're experiencing, not being reserved about it. And I have to say, I also noticed that people that tout non-attachment as an important strategy and marker of spiritual progress are very attached to their ideas about non-attachment.

Oh, yeah. So it's impossible to be attached to the idea of non-attachment, and that's a misstep. Yep. I'm guilty as charged on that one at points in my life. Your reaction is too much. You should be more, I like that idea, everything should be the same tone. A spiritual teacher I really admire says it in the way of, you know, this is not freedom from things. This is freedom to experience them. So it's not freedom from experience.

It's freedom to have experience fully, to go into it, you know? And I just love that's a slight twist on like one word, but it really gets to kind of what we're talking about, which is that a spiritual practice done right, at least for me, means that I can experience life. I don't have to hide. And so I just was really struck by the way you worded non-attachment and that idea of that we think making everything an even tone is what non-attachment is. So it was a good thing to have to be able to answer people because that is the most confounding question I get. And that's almost always the criticism of Buddhism that I hear from people. It's that one. It's about not feeling. What's life if you don't feel anything?

Yeah. Well, good luck with that. It's very misplaced, but I understand. I understand how it's easy to interpret it that way. But when you say a spiritual path done right, and the first thing that I thought of was a spiritual path done right, in the Buddhist view as I understand it, which is limited, is your life. understand it, which is limited, is your life. There is no difference between the spiritual path and your life. Your life is the spiritual path. So, ideas about non-attachment and detachment and some notion that you should become somewhat inhuman is the opposite of the Buddhist teachings, which says fully human, fully here. My friend Michael Carroll, a wonderful teacher and writer, says in meditation, we're not trying to get anywhere, which of course is sometimes hard to swallow because we have an agenda for our meditation practice. But no, he says, we're not trying to get anywhere. And this, I think,

is true of the entire path. We're trying to be somewhere. That is a beautiful, beautiful thing that he said. And non-attachment means non-attachment to everything except for where you are. Yeah, I love that. It's not about trying to go somewhere. It's about trying to be somewhere. That really resonates. And I think my meditation practice has really transformed, and it continues to transform the more that I learn to do this, which is to really let it be. And the challenge with that is it's very counterintuitive on one level

because what I do most of the day is I just let my mind be and it runs all over creation and all kinds of bad patterns. I mean, just like doing absolutely nothing, right, isn't exactly what works, you know, for a lot of people. So I think when we go into meditation, we get this sense like, okay, now the job is to kind of pin this thing down and get it into this space. And I've really been working with learning, how do you do both those things? How do you like, and I love the precision and the openness, you know, how do you have the precision of staying with that thing and the openness that allows everything else to happen around it? And it's, it really has deepened my meditation practice

and my appreciation for what we're really trying to do. And I read meditation books for a lot of years, and I know people were saying this. I am not saying that this was, like, not written. I just didn't hear it for a long time. Right. I know what you mean. I know what you mean. Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche,

Tibetan meditation master who brought the Shambhala teachings, the lineage that I practice in. I was just reading, rereading an incredible book that he wrote called Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism, which is actually the very first book I ever read when I started meditating. And actually, I have it right here. So I can read you this one sentence, quote, meditation is not a question of forcing the mind back to some particular object but of bringing it back down from the dream world into reality oh that was a mic drop moment for me yeah we're not trying to get somewhere we're not trying to even be good

at meditating because who cares if you're the world's best follower of the breath it doesn't matter we're trying to be good at being here, coming down from the dream world into reality, which is fierce and beautiful and horrifying and confounding and joyous. Yeah, that's a great line. So we are at the end of our time here. You and I are going to go have a little bit more of a post-show conversation that is available to our Patreon supporters. So if you're interested, folks, check that out. And I think what we're going to talk about is the, I'm never going to say this right, it's the psychoanalyst Karen Horney, the Hornevian directional theory. It's actually pronounced Horneye, which saves us the embarrassment of saying horny. Karen Horneye and the Hornevian directional theory, which I love talking about.

So I'll forward to that. Yeah. I mean, I read it and I was like, how have I never heard this before? Because it is really a powerful thing. So we're going to do that in the post-show conversation. But Susan, thanks so much for taking the time to come back on and writing another wonderful book. Oh, thank you. It's always such a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you so much for allowing me to do so. Okay. Bye.

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