The One You Feed - The Surprising Choices That Make You Happier and Help the Planet | Elizabeth Dunn & Jiaying Zhao

Starting point is 00:00:00 I think we all have the capacity to make changes in our lives that can make us happier and reduce our carbon emissions. But we can't change everything about our lives all at once. So I would encourage people, if you care about climate change, pick one area of your life. Maybe think about food or think about your vacations or think about the way that you commute. Just pick one. Welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true.

Starting point is 00:00:41 And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf.

Starting point is 00:01:13 We're all busy. There's a lot of things that we want to fix both in our own lives and in the world around us. And when I find something that can do both at the same time, I'm always interested. Elizabeth Dunn and Jai Ying Zhao call it the sweet spot. Choices that cut your carbon emissions and make you happier at the same time. Liz Studies Happiness. Jaiing is a climate expert, the one colleagues call the human carbon calculator. Their book is called Leave the Lights on, and it's full of changes you might actually want to make.

Starting point is 00:01:45 I'm Eric Zimmer, and this is the one you feed. Hello, mid-sized business. We see your big ambitions, but how do you achieve the wins you want when your technology is holding you back? SAP Grow is built to grow with your business, no matter its size. with AI embedded at its core, working across every system, all ready to go from day one so you can hit the ground running. Bring it with SAP Grow. AI Cloud ERP for any size business. Hi, Liz.

Starting point is 00:02:16 Hi, Jain. Hello. Hello. Lovely to have you both on. We're going to be discussing your wonderful new book, which is called Leave the Lights on, how joyful decisions can save our species. But before we get into that, we will start. like we always do with the parable.

Starting point is 00:02:33 And in the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild, and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other's a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear.

Starting point is 00:02:53 And the grandchild stops, they think about it for a second. They look up at their grandparent, and they say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. So I actually wanted to be on this podcast because I heard you tell that parable on a previous episode. And it really changed the way that I thought about the work that we've been doing.

Starting point is 00:03:22 So I think that there is kind of a bad wolf in terms of climate change communication that is all about fear. and anxiety, shame, guilt. And it's a powerful wolf. It's done some good things. Even a bad wolf has its strengths, right? But I see our work as really trying to be about feeding the good wolf, saying, actually, we can motivate climate, pro-climate behavior by encouraging people to think of this as an opportunity for kindness, for improving their own lives. The bad wolf is not the only wolf. There's a good wolf. And we can use the

Starting point is 00:04:07 power of that good wolf to change people's behavior in a really positive direction. I love that. And I think you're right. And a lot of the book is turning on an idea that I spend a lot of time thinking about, which is what motivates change most effectively. And there's certainly a school of thought that says being really hard on ourselves, being that so-called more strident voice, the one that says not, the one that says like, you've got to get in shape, you got to, you have to do this, you have to do that, versus the sort of change that happens by feeling good. And the Stanford professor B.J. Fogg said something to the effect of in his book, we change more by feeling better than feeling worse. And that's kind of the theme here in a lot of the book, yeah?

Starting point is 00:05:00 I think that's exactly right. And, you know, feeling good is sort of nature's reinforcer. Happiness, joy, feeling good about what we do. It just naturally makes us want to repeat those behaviors. And for a grand challenge like climate change, doing something once doesn't usually help very much. It's doing something many, many times day after day. And so that's where I think feeling good becomes a really,

Starting point is 00:05:26 powerful motivator. And for a grand challenge like climate change, doing something once doesn't usually help very much. It's doing something many, many times day after day. And so that's where I think feeling good becomes a really powerful motivator. You guys talk about joy as the sweet spot. What do you mean by sweet spot with all of this? Yeah, so the sweet spot is actually the conjunction of joy and climate benefits. So what are the most high impact actions we can take to fight climate change? So that's quantified by a carbon emission reduction. Then what are the most impactful things we can do to improve our happiness? So the sweet spot is the conjunction of the two. So it's the idea of one action produces two good outcomes. It's like a double word

Starting point is 00:06:22 score. A double word score. Yes. Yes. Or another phrase people use is, kill two birds with one stone. Yes, although that sounds a little bad wolfish. Well, here's what's funny. I had Peter Singer on the show years ago, and I assume you guys know who Peter Singer is, really brought animal welfare into the consciousness of everybody. And I unfortunately used that analogy with Peter Singer, who was, he was very polite about it. He's like, I think I would use, I think I would say it differently. So yes, it's a little more dark wolf. But I think about these sort of opportunities a lot in life.

Starting point is 00:07:01 Like if I can go on a walk and do it with a friend, I'm getting sort of two benefits there, right? I'm getting the physical exercise being outside and I'm getting the socialization benefit. And I think what you're saying is let's look for those opportunities. That's exactly right. And I think these two benefits, it's not just that we're getting, hey, two good things.

Starting point is 00:07:21 and two is better than one, but also that it can help reinforce us to continue. So, you know, if you go to the gym with your friend, you're getting that, or you're going to go on a walk with your friend, you're getting the exercise that you really need, you know, but also the fact that you get to see your friend probably makes you less likely to cancel, right? And so similarly, if we can identify changes we can make in our own lives that reduce our carbon emissions, but that also make us feel good that we enjoy, then. it's going to be easy to stick with them, just like it's easier to stick with going to the gym if you're meeting a friend. So let's go back to what you said in your response to the parable where you said there's kind of a dark wolf of talking about climate.

Starting point is 00:08:06 Tell me a little bit more about what that sounds like, what it is, and how it tends to affect people. Is it useful? Yeah, the dark wolf is the doom and gloom narrative of focusing on the climate. climate catastrophe, the crisis, emergency, that tends to scare people away. It builds negative emotions like fear, anger, despair. Other narratives around the dark wolf are about, you know, give up your meat, give up travel, don't shop. So a lot of those sacrificial behaviors that are not very enticing.

Starting point is 00:08:46 So the negativity is the dark wolf. and we've done a global mega study to show that this dark wolf actually backfires. The doom and gloom narrative discourages climate action as opposed to encourage it in that. So that's the reason to move away from the dark wolf. At the same time, the dark wolf has some power. So that same global mega study showed that these doom and gloom messages, the one thing they did really well was replicate themselves, spread on social media. were likely to share these doom and gloom messages.

Starting point is 00:09:21 So the dark wolf has its power. And again, I think had an important role to play in kind of raising people's awareness about the problem of climate change. But now that people know about it, we need that good wolf to kind of step in. And so feeding the good wolf is really what we are all about. Yeah, I think this is such a nuanced point because knowing the reality of a situation is important, right? I think reality in general is good to know. Deception denial is not really a great, great standard practice. So knowing some of this is helpful in some sense, but then also to your

Starting point is 00:10:06 point, it feels so overwhelming. And I think so much of our world today, whether we look at climate change, whether we look at what's happening with AI, whether we look at our political system, regardless of what side you are on, it feels so big. It feels bigger than we are. And you guys are providing an approach that says, here's a way to make a difference in a way that is more likely to keep going because you enjoy doing it. Exactly. I want to get into all these actions here in a moment because the book is full of ways. of thinking through this and I really love that. It's a very practical thing and we love practical things here but I want to talk a little bit more about like what is a way of

Starting point is 00:10:57 thinking about climate change for somebody who is really worried about it. I'll just speak for myself really worried about it, sees that it's a potential existential crisis feels like we're not making the kind of progress that we probably need to make and so what's a way of holding that thought that also allows me to actually do something about it? Yeah, so our approach is to combine both individual action with system level changes. So we tend to not just worry about climate change, but also think that individuals have nothing to do with it. It's governments and businesses. Yeah. Now that's only one side of the story.

Starting point is 00:11:43 Individuals have everything to do with climate change because we are voters, we set policies, we can vote in the right politicians. We're consumers. We drive demand. Our wallet is a voting signal for businesses. So everything we do has a carbon impact. And if you are in North America, we tend to have the largest carbon footprint per capita. So there's a lot we can do, especially in Canada and U.S., to cut missions in our lives. but also call for higher system level changes as citizens.

Starting point is 00:12:19 So I think the right approach is do both and also do it away to boost our own happiness. I think that's the critical missing ingredient so far. And I would suggest that what we want to avoid here is wallowing in depression and despair. Because not only do those emotions feel terrible, they also don't get us anywhere. Yeah. And so instead, if we can transform this into taking action, not only can we as individuals actually make a real difference, but also it just feels so much better to take action,

Starting point is 00:12:52 to take some control, to re-empower ourselves. And we would suggest that this notion that individuals have no bearing on climate change and it's all about governments and businesses, we really see that as a new form of climate denial because it's wrong. It is factually wrong. Individuals have an immense amount of power, both through their own actions, the way they influence other people, and the way they can potentially shape systems. And that's really our goal in the book is to help people reclaim that

Starting point is 00:13:20 power. So one of the things that's really unique about the two of you, and we have two people on an interview, is that you come together bringing really different things. Tell me about that. So I'm a happiness researcher. I never thought writing a book on climate change was going to be on my bingo card. But I really cared a lot about climate change and it actually dawned on me that in fact, happiness research might have an important role to play in tackling climate change. And I brought this idea to Jay-Z and maybe she can take it from there. Yeah, so Liz approached me one day, actually, back in 2019, and she asked, can we make climate action feel happy instead of miserable? And her question gave me a light bulb moment when I realized that happiness is the missing ingredient in the

Starting point is 00:14:13 fight against climate change. So my job is actually to change people's behaviors. And I specifically design interventions to reduce emissions, to reduce waste, to encourage these pro-climate actions. So at that time, I had the eureka moment. And ever since then, Liz and I worked together to identify these high-impact actions to reduce emissions while increasing happiness. When I was in ninth grade, I started working at a restaurant right next to my high school, and I was there every single morning before class because I was obsessed with cinnamon toast that they had. I never got tired of it. So when Kachava came out with cinnamon French toast flavor, I was going to try it no matter what, and it is delicious. It tastes like the thing I remember

Starting point is 00:15:21 and it's made with real cinnamon bark, which is probably why. I love Kachava. because with two scoops, I get complete nutrition that my body needs. 25 grams of protein, lots of fiber, greens, and so much more. There's no artificial flavors, colors, or sweeteners. It tends to be the perfect mid-afternoon pick me up, and it tides me over to dinner. Treat yourself to a childhood favorite. Go to kachava.com and use code feed for 15% off your first order. That's kachava.com code feed.

Starting point is 00:15:53 That's K-A-C-H-A-V-A-com code feed. If I have this right, Jay-Z, you are the climate expert. Elizabeth, you're the happiness expert. Putting the two together is really what brings this book to life and what's unique about this book. Exactly. And Jay-Z calculated just how many hours we spent together. And it is pretty crazy. Really just like hundreds of hours a year we've been spending together.

Starting point is 00:16:22 working on this project for a number of years now, conducting original research and figuring out how to translate these ideas for the public. Have those hours made you happy? They have made me very happy. It is so fun working with Jay-Z. And also, the great thing about having almost non-overlapping areas of expertise is that each of us is constantly learning from the other, and that is so fun. So this idea that individuals can't do very much seems to be, at least to me, a much.

Starting point is 00:16:52 more recent, and I mean in the last several years, take on the climate thing. What I hear from climate people is what this whole individual responsibility thing is something that the companies, the big emitters, came up with to kind of put the responsibility on us and take it off of them. And I think what you guys are counseling, which I always love, is sort of a middle way approach. It's both. Yeah, that's just absolutely right. I mean, individual action doesn't mean that you can eat salad all the way out of the climate crisis. That's not going to work.

Starting point is 00:17:30 But also, you can't just sit there and do nothing and expect businesses and governments to do everything. So there's this middle ground where both bottom up and top down actions matter. And this is what we want to do to re-empower people to take action. As one specific example, you know, biking is a very sustainable form of transportation. and to make it feel safe and comfortable to people. We really do need governments to invest in infrastructure like safe bike lanes. But we also need individuals to use those bike lanes to get out on their bikes. And these things work in tandem.

Starting point is 00:18:03 So the more people bike, the more governments tend to be willing to invest in a self-reinforcing cycle. And so seeing individual action in opposition to systemic action, we think, is just completely backward. You also talk in the book about how individual climate action sometimes radiates outward. Tell me a little bit about that. So individual action is contagious. Our behavior is contagious. That's probably the most important lesson of behavior change. Let me give an example.

Starting point is 00:18:38 So if you have solar panels on your roof, your neighbors are more likely to get a solar panel because they see it. and your words spread. So as a personal example, my dad got an EV many years ago. I got to drive it recently. I loved it so much that I got my own EV. I not only got my own EV, I wrapped it in hot pink and drive it around the city. People take photos of it. Now the word starts to spread.

Starting point is 00:19:04 And now I'm working on Liz to try to get her to buy an EV. So behaviors spread. What color will your EV be, Liz? the question. I mean, I'm going to have to think of it as an accessory to Jay-Z's EV and, like, pick a color that, you know, accentuates the hot pink. So I'm going to have to give that some serious thought. But I will say, seeing how much Jay-Z really enjoys her EV makes me want to get one. Like, this is now the number one big expense that I'm, like, saving up for. Whereas, you know, I have other friends, for example, I have a friend who drives across town to go to this store where

Starting point is 00:19:42 she can get nuts and things in refillable containers and shampoo and stuff in refillable containers. And that's like an hour out of the day. It sounds so annoying. You're filling up these containers. Yeah, it saves a little bit of plastic, but this did not catch on for me because it didn't sound enjoyable. And so again, I think really finding ways to change our lifestyle or behavior that we actually enjoy, not only is it nice for us, but it makes us more contagious to other people. You reference a study, I think, that says that you see solar panels show up in clusters. Well, so solar panels are contagious. So, yeah, they seem to appear in clusters, almost like viruses, that they spread through neighborhoods.

Starting point is 00:20:25 And so I think we often don't realize just how much of an impact we're truly having on others. We can actually see this in a really cool, fun little study that was conducted right on our campus at UBC, where our colleagues observed the orders people were placing at a little cafe. People stood in line at this cafe, and they could choose either a meat entree or a vegetarian entree. And as it turned out, these people ordered the same dish as the random stranger in front of them 72% of the time. So just what you hear, the person in front of you order matters. And, you know, we don't necessarily recognize what the person in line behind us,

Starting point is 00:21:04 literally or metaphorically is taking from our own behavior. But it turns out they're taking a lot, even if they themselves don't realize it. And so our own actions make a much bigger difference than we realize. That is an amazing study. And I don't know why I continue to be sort of surprised by them, because there are so many examples of these, but all the ways that our environment works on us that we just don't even understand. It's really wild. Absolutely. And I think it's fun to think about how these little behaviors that we're enacting are influencing those around us, like these ripple effects that we're creating throughout the day without even realizing it. Check in for a moment. Is your jaw tight, breath shallow? Are your shoulders creeping up? Those little signals are invitations to slow down and listen. Every Wednesday, I send weekly bites of wisdom, a short email that turns the big ideas we explore. here in each show, things like mental health, anxiety, relationships, purpose, into bite-sized

Starting point is 00:22:10 practices you can use the same day. It's free. It takes about a minute to read, and thousands already swear by it. If you'd like extra fuel for the weekend, you also get a weekend podcast playlist. Join us at one you feed.net slash newsletter. That's one you feed.net slash newsletter and start receiving your next bite of wisdom. All right, back to the show. I just wrote a book called How a Little Becomes a Lot. So obviously, we're in line on this. But the little things that we do,

Starting point is 00:22:44 they ripple in ways we can never see. It'd be nice sometimes if we could. I suppose our negative actions, they ripple in a similar way, and we probably don't really need to see that. So I suppose it's a mixed blessing. You guys talk about finding, these things to do for the climate that are enjoyable, that we like, that we will continue to do,

Starting point is 00:23:08 but you also talk about finding actions that have real impact. So it's very confusing, I think, unless you really spend a lot of time on it, what things are most beneficial, right? And you guys point out a lot of trade-offs, so I think this would be a good time to turn into the individual sections of the book. where we can talk about the choices that both bring happiness, but also the choices that are best for the climate, that are proven to be valuable. And that's really where I see, again,

Starting point is 00:23:44 the interaction between the two of you so powerfully, right? Like, Liz, you really understand happiness. You research what actually causes us to feel good, what sort of things would become reinforceable. And Jay-Z, you've got the knowledge of, like, yeah, that actually makes a difference. in the climate versus that's kind of I wouldn't spend my time there. So let's use that to move into chapter two, a loaded subject, which you guys title

Starting point is 00:24:14 in defense of bacon, which is about the choices we make around food. So let's start maybe Jay-Z talking to us about how our food choices, what the impact of those Are? Is it a big impact? How important is it? Give us some of the science. Switching diet has a huge impact. And in fact, you don't have to actually go vegan to be good to the climate. The meat that you should maybe reduce is beef and lamb. But for other kinds of animal protein, like chicken, turkey, pork, seafood, maybe don't worry about them so much. And in fact, I think pound for pound, chicken has half the impact of cheese. So this is a little milk and dairy is also high impact because they come from cows. But not all vegetarian food is great.

Starting point is 00:25:09 So for instance, like a BL meat burger actually has a higher carbon impact than a BLT. So when it comes to food, while my message is make meat a treat, make beef and lamb in particular treat. So I had my first steak in three years after I finished writing the book as a celebration. So it's an infrequent, rare, extravagant indulgence for myself instead of eating it on a weekly basis. But for most vegetables and nuts, not highly processed fake meat, they are excellent for our health, for our happiness, and for the climate. And so I think that's kind of the general takeaway from food. There are delicious carbon negative food out there. There are a handful.

Starting point is 00:25:57 So maple syrup being one of them, which is the literal sweet spot. Since I read your book, I have basically been covering everything I eat in gallons of maple syrup. We're going to need to get a nutritionist on here in a minute to discuss just how bad that might be. But go on, maple syrup. So maple syrup produced in Quebec is carbon negative. This is because the maple forest in Quebec capture 10 times more carbon than maple syrup production emits. So the more maple syrup you eat, the better it is for the climate. And in fact, if you just eat one teaspoon a day, that's enough to put one maple tree into production.

Starting point is 00:27:12 So you don't need to eat a ton every day. Just one teaspoon is enough. You have a lovely chart in the book that shows via size of circle how impactful certain foods are in the climate. And there were two on there that were a bigger circle that are actually certainly part of my diet. And one was coffee and the other was dark chocolate. Now, is the fact that I only drink like a cup of coffee and only a little bit of dark chocolate sort of make this less of an issue? Because if you look at that chart, one approach would be like, I just eat these tiny little circles.

Starting point is 00:27:50 Let me just only eat these tiny little circles. But that would not be a choice that probably sparks joy for a lot of people. So how do you think about finding that literal sweet spot again between these things? So Jay-Z, you talked about, okay, eating steak or beef as a rarity versus a regular thing. What are some other things that you think of that would find that sweet spot versus me giving up coffee and dark chocolate. I want to be very clear. As a happiness researcher, I don't think anybody should give up coffee or dark chocolate.

Starting point is 00:28:26 Okay. And instead, you know, what you said about the amount that you eat is very important. You're just eating like a square or two of dark chocolate. You're not eating a one pound dark chocolate bar every day is the impression I'm getting from you. Say it's somewhere between one square and a pound. Okay. Well? No, actually it's four squares.

Starting point is 00:28:45 So there it is. Yeah, so amount matters. And this is interesting, right, because if we take a really moralizing approach to climate change, then eating any high carbon food, any amount of it is, you know, might make you a bit of a bad person, right? Might make you feel some guilt. Other people might shame you. But if we instead take a more sort of math-based approach, which I think is what we do in this book to say, actually, what is the true, like, impact of these choices, then we can see that, you know, the amount that you eat matters. And in fact, one reason that we talk, titled this chapter on food in defense of bacon is that you can have just a little bit of bacon and it goes a long way. You can take one strip of bacon and crumble it over some Brussels sprouts and suddenly you have like really delicious Brussels sprouts that have been substantially elevated by that strip of bacon. Similarly, like small amounts of dark chocolate, I think, can go a long way. And the other piece that I would suggest here in thinking maybe about your dark chocolate habit is that maybe not just making it a daily habit. habit could also elevate your capacity to enjoy it. So my lab ran a study with chocolate where we,

Starting point is 00:29:53 you know, as a happiness lab, we buy a lot of chocolate. It's a good pleasure stimulus. We brought people into our lab. We had them eat some chocolate. We measured how much they enjoyed it, how much they really savored it. Then we asked one group of students to please give up chocolate for a whole week. Meanwhile, other students were given a big bag of chocolate and asked to eat as much as they comfortably could for the week. And finally, a third group, control group got no special chocolate-related instructions. Then we bring everybody back into the lab a week later, have them eat some more chocolate. And what we see is that overall people just enjoy eating chocolate less the second time than they did the first time, except for the folks who gave it up in between. So taking a break from that

Starting point is 00:30:36 chocolate seemed to really renew people's capacity to enjoy it. Now, this is not a one-size-fits-all approach. If like the dark chocolate that you have at the end of the day is something that you look forward to, that you continue to savor, that really gives you pleasure, then I think you should have it. However, if you're just eating it mindlessly without really noticing it, not particularly appreciating it, that's where it's a great opportunity to take a break from it, renew your capacity to appreciate it, and save some carbon in the process. The joys of hedonic adaptation. Exactly. Although there are, I mean, obviously, it, It gets a bad name sometimes in happiness research, and it's a good useful human skill.

Starting point is 00:31:17 Like anything, knowing how to work with it skillfully is valuable. Absolutely. So hedonic adaptation is really helpful when it comes to negative things in our lives. We're able to get used to things, but that also is a real barrier to lasting happiness in that it can prevent us from continuing to reap joy from the same thing that we do over and over again. And again, what this means is there's a great opportunity to have more joy in our lives. by making some changes. I had an experience just today, but it's not unique to today, but I think it speaks a little bit to this feeling good about what we do is better than bad, because I really try and

Starting point is 00:31:56 be conscious of my water use, particularly around doing dishes, like just turn it off or when I brush my teeth, turn the water off. And today I went in, I turned the shower on, and then I got distracted. And about four minutes later, I'm like, oh, and my brain says, says you just undid two weeks' worth of dishes in this one moment. And what happens in that situation to me, if I don't catch it, is that I all of a sudden stop doing the dishes because I'm like, I guess it doesn't really matter. Yeah?

Starting point is 00:32:33 Yeah. This is called the what the hell effect, where, you know, once you've messed up, it's like, you know, in this, you see this with dieters, once they start. drinking a milkshake, they might as well, you know, eat a tub of ice cream too. There's actually research showing this. I definitely think it's true when it comes to carbon. And if we can overcome it, you know, this can help us make better choices because the reality is, you know, everything still matters to some extent. At the same time, I don't think we should beat ourselves up for these little mistakes that we make. I think we tried to take a very compassionate approach

Starting point is 00:33:06 in this book. And, you know, it's not about scolding others or scolding ourselves. It's like, can we just keep trying to do better? Yeah. In my book, I was a little more direct when I called it the fuckets, you know, which is essentially exactly that thing. And learning to not do that is so valuable, right? Learning to go, okay, well, all right, I can start over again. I can start over again.

Starting point is 00:33:31 All right. So now let's move into our buying habits. And I think what's really interesting also is recognizing. how these things interact and overlap. And maybe we can tie some of that together at the end. But these are not entirely separate things. But let's talk about buying. There's a fact that you put out that says the fashion industry

Starting point is 00:33:58 generates twice the global emissions of all flights and shipping combined. So I have a question about that. So you don't mean the shipping of fashion because you said that. You're talking about the production, just the actual. making of... No, so that statement comes from a report that quantified the emissions of fast fashion and everything else. So that statement means flying, just flights, not flying clothes, flying people.

Starting point is 00:34:27 Okay. And maritime shipping, not shipping clothes, but shipping altogether globally. Got it. Got it. Okay. And so the amount that fast fashion accounts for is partially shipping and partially production of the clothes then? Yes, but the carbon footprint of fast fashion is way bigger.

Starting point is 00:34:49 Yeah. Than shipping flights combined in a total sense. Yeah, I'm just trying to understand what part of it. So what is fast fashion? It's a term I've heard a few times, but I can't honestly tell you that I know exactly what it. I couldn't walk into a store and be like, that's fast fashion, that's not.

Starting point is 00:35:06 So I'm clearly on hip, but what is it? So fast fashion is basically the mass production model of clothing, cheap clothing that rapidly gets purchased and thrown away. So a lot of fashion brands unfortunately use this model. They produce at a massive rapid scale. So consumers keep buying them and throwing them away and buying more. The sort of fastest fashion will have a two-week cycle. So what's in fashion in all the stores is there for two weeks. and then it's gone and there's some new color or new style that's in.

Starting point is 00:35:43 And so it really encourages people to feel like they constantly need something different than what they already have. So it's not just that it wears out quicker. It's that the style cycle through the shops quicker. The styles cycle through more quickly. And because the clothes aren't really meant to last, they're often made that way. Got it. And I think it does exist upon a continuum, right? So I would say if I buy something from Patagonia, I mean, Patagonia is producing things on a pretty big level.

Starting point is 00:36:17 They're not your mom and pop shop. But I end up owning those things for years and years and years. So that's on the other side from fast fashion, but not all the way to a hand-sown suit by my local tailor. Right. And I don't think too many people are getting the hand-sown suits. So if we want to kind of counter fast fashion, it's more about choosing high-quality clothing that is made to stand the test of time that can be worn through different sort of fashion crazes. I will see too again, as the happiness researcher, I'm just going to say,

Starting point is 00:36:54 it doesn't mean you have to completely deprive yourself of some of these fun fast-fashioned trends. You know, it can be nice to have the like digital lavender that's currently in style or whatever. But then what we would say the way to do that is by getting a T-shirt. Because a t-shirt or a tank top is actually going to be pretty low carbon. In contrast, jeans, a single pair of jeans, emits more carbon than an iPhone. So it's really with jeans where we want to think, hey, maybe I want to invest in some nicer, possibly more expensive pairs of jeans than I would normally buy, but that I think will really last that aren't just sort of like on this moment's trend, but that are really good quality that look good on me that I'm going to continue to wear for a long time.

Starting point is 00:37:34 I try and stay focused in interviews, so I'm not going to do this, but now I'm like, what the hell is digital lavender? I assume it's a color, but why? It's a color. It's not in fashion right at this moment, but I bought a mug in digital lavender, and I was like, why did I do that? And then I was like, oh, this was actually a couple years ago. I looked around, everything was that color.

Starting point is 00:37:55 And I was like, oh, God, but it was just like a flash in the pan. Let's talk about recycling. Recycling is a big one, and I feel like I am constantly hearing different. things. Like, yes, it's really important. No, it doesn't matter at all. 90% of what you recycle gets shipped off to China. I mean, the various things go on here. So you do make a point that reusing beats recycling, but let's talk about recycling. How valuable is recycling? I mean, I keep doing it. Is it worth doing? Recycling reduces waste to a certain extent, but it doesn't cut carbon by a lot. It's

Starting point is 00:38:34 actually a low-impact action when it comes to carbon. For carbon. Right. You can reduce waste. And as you said, there's a lot of issues with recycling because a lot of things we actually recycled don't end up being recycled. They are shipped off to other countries, for instance, or dumped in the ocean or landfill. So that's the demoralizing piece of recycling. You know, in the book, we argue reuse actually is the highest impact action we can engage

Starting point is 00:39:04 over recycling. So, again, I think I will keep recycling because it seems like it has some benefit, and it's, again, very simple to do, and it's a habit at this point. But what you're suggesting is going through my closet and finding all the clothes that are in there that I don't wear, and donating those has a lot of impact. Yes. So instead of throwing away, as in fast fashion, you donate it to thrift stores. So become somebody else's treasure.

Starting point is 00:39:34 And there's the same go for us trying to reuse other people's things? If we can, yes, instead of buying new, we buy used. So I belong to a great buy nothing Facebook group for my neighborhood. And these are all over the place. And so almost any time I'm getting rid of something, I offer it to people in my neighborhood on this buy nothing group. And similarly, like if you need something, you know, often neighbors will turn out to have it. And in line with our sort of sweet spots concept, this is also a fun way of building connection between neighbors. So when you're actually giving things away, not just sort of dropping them off in the bin at the thrift shop, but actually giving them to other people in your neighborhood.

Starting point is 00:40:16 I was getting rid of a coffee maker recently. I got a new one. And so somebody else was happy to get that. And it creates a cycle of good feeling as well as reducing carbon. Maybe if I can just add, I think Jay-Z, would be great if you talked about your recycling study, how people, when you ask people about the best, ways to reduce carbon. Oh, yeah. So we ran as a quiz, a carbon quiz, where we asked people, you know, what is the highest

Starting point is 00:40:42 impact action you can take to reduce carbon emissions? Recycling comes at the top. People say that. That's right. But that's the misconception. And also in the quiz, which we encourage people to try, we tested almost a thousand people, only one person ate it. So it's not a easy quiz.

Starting point is 00:41:04 So the quiz basically ask questions like, how many hamburgers do you have to give up to offset a trip from, a flight from New York to Paris, for instance? How many? Before I give you the answer. Okay. You want me to think? Well, I read the book.

Starting point is 00:41:22 I mean, I'll appear smart. Of course. I mean, I can just flip open to the answers, which would be cheating. and I don't want to falsely make people think I know more than I do. So the right answer is around 300. That's the median. Which would be a whole lot of chicken.

Starting point is 00:41:38 I don't eat. Oh, yeah. The chicken will be even. So I would need to basically devastate an entire state full of chickens to make up for my flight. I'm on a chicken mass murder. All right. I think the important point here is that people's intuitions about the impact of everyday behaviors on carbon emissions are really off. even people who care a lot about climate change don't necessarily have good intuitions about what matters.

Starting point is 00:42:03 And that was one of our motivations to write this book is that Jay-Z is finally known as the human carbon calculator. And so as somebody who was coming from outside of the area of climate change, I was always asking her, you know, what about this? What about that? Tell me the carbon emissions for that. And so often I was surprised. And it really changed the way that I think about a lot of these things. And so I was like, we need to be able to share this with people and give people a more accurate sense of what matters and what. what doesn't because behaviors like recycling that people tend to focus on and maybe even shame other people for not doing sufficiently. You know, my husband gets really upset with me if I don't wash out

Starting point is 00:42:36 the peanut butter jars so I can put them in the recycling. You know, these behaviors actually turn out not to matter very much. And meanwhile, there are other things we could be doing that have a much higher impact. And so refocusing our limited bandwidth on the actions that really make a difference, I think is just key. I want to put a little pointer in your head, which is AI environmental climate impact. How bad is using AI for the client? Yeah, so I get that question a lot. So using a chatbot is actually very low in terms of carbon for print. So the average query that you put in an AI chatbot generates a tiny amount of carbon equivalent to a human breath, a human exhale.

Starting point is 00:43:18 Okay. That's the carbon intensity. In terms of energy consumption, every query is equivalent to one second in the microwave. Okay. But your personal AI use is not having a huge impact on the climate, period. But what you should be concerned about, this is, of course, beyond the climate argument, is the data centers, the massive consumption of energy and therefore environmental footprint of data centers that are not just running your chatbot, but a lot of the training, model training, is, that's the headline share of,

Starting point is 00:43:58 of energy consumption. So this is a controversy basically anywhere these days. Data centers being built and arguments about whether that's good or bad, usually by local politicians. And you certainly look at that and you look at how much more electricity we need as a whole for AI. The numbers are kind of stunning. I used to own a solar energy company and I look at some of these numbers and I'm like,

Starting point is 00:44:27 my God, these are big, big numbers. So you're saying that the bulk of that is going into training models? Yeah. AI is consuming about 1% of global energy. That's the latest estimate. Okay. And then 90% of that energy consumption is model training, not model use. Interesting. So the practical takeaway here is that as a regular person, you should not feel guilty about asking chat GPT or Gemini a question. The impact of that action is genuinely tiny. So you could do 200 searches and burn about as much carbon as if you heated up a burrito in the microwave. Like, it's pretty trivial. But what we should care about as individuals is asking these big companies questions about where, you know, are you using in clean energy, where are you putting your data centers? Are you putting them in places with clean

Starting point is 00:45:29 energy? This is where we should be focusing our action. And again, it's about trading that knee-jerk response of wanting to shame and guilt each other for the specific things we're doing to instead a more informed perspective of going, oh, this is a time where we do want to hold companies accountable. This is an entirely trivial point, but since we're on it, I need to ask, does it make any difference, Jay-Z, whether I use the latest model versus a more efficient model so I could use, like, in Claude, I've got Fable 5.0 now, or I could use Haiku 4.6. Does that make the slightest bit of difference? Not at all. Okay. All right. No, don't worry about that. Let it, let it rip then. Okay. All right, so we've covered food. We've covered buying. There was a point I wanted to make also around

Starting point is 00:46:17 some of this stuff, which is we are talking about these things from a carbon-based angle pretty much exclusively, right? Whereas if we look at something like recycling, there's a waste element also to it, right? Carbon is not the only lens which we look at these choices through. It's just the lens that you guys are focused on through this book. Right. And I think it's really important to draw that distinction because you're going to make different choices depending on what your concern is. So if you're somebody who's very concerned about animal welfare, of course, you know, you're going to want to think very carefully about whether to eat meat at all. And it does often become a moral issue at that point. But these issues can sort of blend into each other in a way that I think creates a lack of clarity

Starting point is 00:47:04 for people in thinking about them. And so what we're trying to say is, you know, if you care about climate change and this is an issue you want to tackle, here's how you can do it. And so, let's be really focused and clear on what we're trying to do. And in the book, we really try to give people a kind of a guidebook to making over their lives in different ways in every domain from food and shopping, as we've already discussed, to travel and work and major life decisions. And so in each one of these, there's an important carbon lens that we can apply and then understand how we can make a difference in terms of climate change. All right. Let's move on to the next. next category, which is indeed travel. And I'd love you guys to share a little bit about your own

Starting point is 00:47:52 wrestling around this issue. Yeah, this was the chapter of the book that we kept postponing writing because as a happiness researcher, I will say, you know, there's a lot of work suggesting that buying experiences, including vacations, is a really good source of happiness. But that's where we kind of bump up against the knowledge that flying is a very carbon-intensive activity. So what do we do? Well, actually, in working on the book, I was very pleased to discover that there are a lot of ways out of this carbon conundrum. So for one thing, we can think about cutting out some of our flights.

Starting point is 00:48:33 So there's some really interesting happiness research showing that the worst part of tourism is the travel part. So if you can explore a little bit closer to home and spend less time actually traveling and more time being a tourist, this can be more enjoyable. So thinking about maybe if you're going to take two vacations this summer, doing one of them closer to home, that can be potentially a really valuable strategy for happiness as well as cutting back on carbon. Let's be fair. That's a little easier to do if you live in Vancouver than if you live in Des Moines. Nothing against my Des Moines listeners. I'm not trying to make you angry. I live in Columbus, Ohio. I'm just saying some places offer more touristy. I mean, the number of things within a driving

Starting point is 00:49:23 distance of Vancouver that are awesome to see is an awful lot. That is absolutely the case. And yet, many people who live in these cities that attract tourists from all over the world don't actually get around to visiting the tourist attractions in their own hometown. So even in London, which of course is one of the world's great cities, many residents of London have actually visited fewer tourist attractions like Big Ben than folks who have just visited their city for two weeks. So for those of us, again, we do not want to take a kind of listical approach that you see on the internet where everybody should do these five things. That's not going to work. It's about thinking about your own particular situation. And if you happen to live in a place that has a lot of great attractions, then this is a nice opportunity. Yeah, it's one of the things I really appreciate about the book is the nuance to it. The nuance and the recognition that all of us are different, and we're going to stack our own things up here to make up our own approach. And to try and dictate one to someone else is not the right way to go for a whole bunch of reasons.

Starting point is 00:50:28 So I have a question about travel. So let's say I have to go to New York City. I live in Columbus, Ohio. I'm going to fly to New York City, or I could rent a car and drive to New York City, eight-hour drive. Car better, same. Does it matter? Flying, in this case, makes more sense.

Starting point is 00:50:48 From a carbon perspective? From a carbon perspective, yes. So for a short flight, like a three-hour flight, in the U.S. emits about just under a thousand pounds of carbon round-trip. Per person? Per person, yes. But if you're driving the car back and forth, one would take more time, it will emit over 2,800 pounds of carbon. So you have to drive three people in your car in addition to yourself to equal the carbon impact.

Starting point is 00:51:17 So in this case, if for a short flight, I would say fly instead of driving a gas car. Evie is a different story. But for long-haul flights, that's the flight that we should reconsider and try to minimize. So flying to Europe, flying to Asia, South Australia. Those are, I think Liz put it beautifully in the book, treat that as Olympics or FIFA. Every four years, you take one long haul flight and make it into a vacation, you know, spend a month in Europe, for instance. Treat that, make that a treat as opposed to a frequent event. Before you check out, pick one insight from today and ask, how will I practice this before bedtime?

Starting point is 00:51:56 Need help turning ideas into action? My free weekly bites of wisdom email lands every Wednesday. with simple practices, reflection, and links to former guests who can guide you, even on the tough stuff like anxiety, purpose, and habit change. Feed your good wolf at one you feed.net slash newsletter. Again, one you feed. Dot net slash newsletter. I love your, do you call it the what the hell approach?

Starting point is 00:52:24 Which is like, if you're going to go that far, stay longer, which is why I've ended up being in Europe for like three months at a time. three months at a time because I'm like, well, if I'm over here, and again, that's a luxury to be able to do it. But your point is, if you're going to go, try and maximize the amount of time you spend there because you're getting more out of the same, quote-unquote, emissions. I try to think about my return on emissions, like how much joy and pleasure and social connection am I getting from this trip. For example, I am going to a conference in a couple weeks and I'm staying a bit longer to make sure I get to see friends and really make the most of

Starting point is 00:53:04 this experience. So one of the things that I've done over the years and have increasingly wondered if it's valuable is purchasing carbon offsets. I'm like, okay, I'm using X amount of carbon to do this. I can find airlines. They'll be like, hey, offset your carbon emissions or even the rental car company I went to recently. It's like, offset your carbon emissions. And not all offsets are created equal. What are some actually valuable offsets that I could do if I really wanted to make sure that, like, hey, I'm offsetting this in a way that's actually doing something, not just planting a bunch of tiny trees that turns the whole forest into monoculture, which, again, I think

Starting point is 00:53:51 planting trees is good, but I don't think it's the best option. So what is? The best carbon offsets you can buy are from goldstander.org. The projects you need to fund or select is clean cookware, cook stoves. So those projects actually offset carbon. Everything else doesn't. There are many reasons for that. So a lot of projects are going to happen regardless of your offset or not.

Starting point is 00:54:18 So your additional money doesn't make additional impact. That's number one. So I'm funding a solar project. What you're saying is that that project may happen with or without us buying offsets. It's just additional money that sweetens the pot for a developer. That's exactly right. So try to avoid those, even tree planting projects, they're probably going to happen regardless of your funding or not. I also don't buy the offsets offered by airlines or car rental companies.

Starting point is 00:54:51 they don't disclose how they're using the money, so don't do that. But fund projects that are essentially in Africa or other parts of the world that offer clean cook stoves. So if I am buying offsets in a project that is buying clean cook stoves for people, this is going to people who would otherwise be using a cook stove that is burning propane or something? No, burning wood. Burning wood. Okay. And that is a very high carbon versus if they get a cleaner stove, it's less carbon.

Starting point is 00:55:30 And this is one well-known way of doing it. But I assume on goldstander.org, there are more options than that? Yeah, there are many. But we provide a link that only targets those carbon offsets that work, like clean cook stoves. Our book website offers that direct URL on the, gold standard.org. I would also add another way that we can think about carbon offsets is actually to create a carbon savings account for ourselves. And then you know exactly where the money is going and how it's making a difference. So if there's something that you would like to buy to reduce

Starting point is 00:56:06 your carbon impact, so maybe like me, you're saving up for an electric vehicle or you want to buy a heat pump. A heat pump is a great investment, fairly expensive. So if you, every time you fly or do some other high carbon activity, you don't get that money to the airline. You put it in that special carbon savings account you've created. And over time, and maybe you do a bit more than you would do if you were giving the money to the airline, over time, you're actually going to be able to afford that purchase that otherwise might have seemed out of reach. How far off is your EV, Liz? Are we talking years? We talk in months. Do you have a model picked out? Where are we in this process? Well, I think it's still at least a few months away. But I will say one thing that Jay-Z has done

Starting point is 00:56:48 made the process a lot easier for me. So she's just really interested in EVs, so she's done a lot of research on them. And this is where I think people can be really helpful to each other and make themselves more contagious. As if you've dug into, like, you just find it interesting and you've dug into electric vehicles or heat pumps or solar panels, you have that knowledge.

Starting point is 00:57:08 And sharing that with other people makes it so much easier for them to follow suit. Wonderful. So is there anything to sort of sum up what we've talked about that you would want to leave listeners with? I think we all have the capacity to make changes in our lives that can make us happier and reduce our carbon emissions, but we can't change everything about our lives all at once.

Starting point is 00:57:32 So I would encourage people, if you care about climate change, pick one area of your life. Maybe think about food or think about your vacations or think about the way that you commute. Just pick one. Really zero in on that. And I will say the podcast that we've done today should give you the old. overall introduction to this way of thinking. And then we've really written our book so that you can just jump right to that one chapter. I know reading a whole book can feel like a lot. Just pick the one chapter that you think is the area of your life you want to maybe give a little makeover and start

Starting point is 00:58:04 there. I love that advice. And yes, the book is wonderful and has far more than we could possibly ever cover here. We'll have links to it in the show notes where people can find each of you individually and the book. We're going to continue in a post-show conversation. where Liz, I want to talk about some of your research on AI and loneliness. So listeners, if you'd like access to that post-show conversation as well as ad-free episodes and you want to support a show that means a lot to you, please go to one you feed.net slash join. Liz, Jay-Z, thank you so much. It's been a real pleasure. Thank you for having us.

Starting point is 00:58:41 Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to the show. If you found this conversation helpful, inspiring, or thought-provoking, I'd love for you to share it with a friend. Sharing from one person to another is the lifeblood of what we do. We don't have a big budget, and I'm certainly not a celebrity, but we have something even better, and that's you. Just hit the share button on your podcast app or send a quick text with the episode link to someone who might enjoy it. Your support means the world, and together we can spread wisdom one episode at a time. Thank you for being part of the one you feed community.

The One You Feed - The Surprising Choices That Make You Happier and Help the Planet | Elizabeth Dunn & Jiaying Zhao

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