The One You Feed - Toni Bernhard

Episode Date: January 13, 2016

This week we talk to Toni Bernhard about not getting what we wantToni Bernhard was a law professor at the University of California—Davis when she became very ill. Since then she had dealt with, and helped teach the world about how to deal with chronic conditions.She is the author of How to Be Sick: A Buddhist-Inspired Guide for the Chronically Ill and their Caregivers. Her second book is titled How to Wake Up: A Buddhist-Inspired Guide to Navigating Joy and Sorrow. Her latest book is How to Live Well with Chronic Pain and Illness.  Our Sponsor this Week is FractureVisit Fracture and use the promo code “wolf” to get 10% off!!In This Interview, Toni and I DiscussThe One You Feed parableHow we are forming our personality as we goThe malleability of the mindOur inability to be nice ourselvesHow it feels good to be nice, kind and compassionateHer journey through illnessLearning to handle not getting our wayHow hard dealing with chronic illness isHow most of our suffering comes from our reaction to events, not the events themselves.Building a life within our limitationsDealing with things that are out of our controlHow pain and sorrow are inevitable but suffering is optionalFor more show notes please visit our websiteSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The mind is malleable and flexible, and that means it can change. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like, garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet, for many of us, or you are what you think ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit.

But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction. How they feed their good wolf. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you?

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Our guest on this episode is Toni Bernhard, a law professor for 22 years at the University of California. Her blog, Turning Straw Into Gold, is hosted by Psychology Today Online. After an illness forced Toni to retire from teaching, she reinvented herself as a writer, authoring the three books, How to Be Sick, How to Be Well, and How to Wake Up. And here's the interview with Toni Bernhard. Hi, Toni. Welcome to the show. And here's the interview with Toni Bernhard. Hi, Toni. Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me.

I'm excited to get you on. You've written three different books about learning to live with things in life not going the way we want them, and that's a great topic. So we're going to focus on that. But before we get into your writing, let's start like we always do with the parable of the two wolves. Yes. There's a grandmother who's talking with her granddaughter and she says, in life there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear.

And the granddaughter stops and she thinks about it for a second and she looks up at her grandmother and says, well, grandmother, which one wins? And the grandmother says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life, in the work that you do, and any ways that you work to feed the good wolf in your own life. Well, when I read the parable, I have to say that the very first thing I thought about was a teaching from the Buddha. My second book is really my Buddhist book. My first and third focus more on chronic illness with Buddhist influence. But in that second book, right in the introduction, I quote a Sutta of the Buddhas in which he says that whatever a person frequently thinks and ponders upon, that becomes the inclination of his mind. And of course, today we'd say his or her mind.

And of course, today we'd say his or her mind. And so when I read the parable, that's immediately what came to mind for me, because what he's saying and what I work on in my own life is inclining my mind toward kindness and compassion and equanimity and all of those healthy and skillful qualities because uh the more you incline your mind that way and this takes effort it's not always easy but the more you incline your mind that way the, it's like it sets down a groove in the mind. It starts to, you think of the old 78 records, you know, the old records, 33 and a third, I guess. And, you know, the needle just wears the groove. And every time, let's use compassion as an example. let's use compassion as an example every time you act with kindness and compassion you're teaching yourself to be a kind and compassionate person and then it's easier

the next time to be that way so i like to think of it as you're you're actually forming your personality by whether you feed the greedy wolf, the angry wolf, or whether you feed the kind, compassionate, honest, all those wonderful qualities, whether you feed that wolf. And in my experience, the one you feed gets stronger and stronger and wants more and more. And it becomes easier and easier to incline the mind in that direction. So when I read that parable, and I don't know where it comes from. I don't think anybody's really sure where it comes from. Oh, I immediately thought of that teaching of the Buddha because it has been so influential to me. It can be life-changing.

And the other thing I like, and this comes up in other places in his teachings, I like, and this comes up in other places in his teachings, is this idea that neuroscientists are confirming today that the mind is malleable and flexible, and that means it can change. And the wonderful thing about that is that just because you're an angry person today doesn't mean that anger is set in stone, that it's a permanent part of your identity. With effort, sometimes with guidance from teachers, which can come through books, you can begin to incline the mind in a different way it's like you're you're undoing a lifetime of conditioning to feed that nasty wolf yeah and you start maybe baby steps at a time just a little more so of kindness because uh i the one thing that uh people write to me more about than anything else is their inability to be nice to themselves. And I think this comes from years of conditioning to hold ourselves to impossible standards that we get from our parents and the culture. And so I tell them, start with a baby step,

because that first morsel, if I can go back to the parable, that you may only be able to handle a little morsel the first time, but then the next time, knowing that that morsel tasted good and feels good. I mean, it feels good to be nice. It feels good to be kind and thoughtful and giving. It doesn't feel good to be angry and resentful. And so if you just take that baby step and try the small more so next time you can take a bigger bite and bigger bite and a bigger bite until it becomes your habit of mind exactly yeah so that's how i see it oh that's a great great reading of it i'm a big fan of that quote and that idea from the buddha also so you've got three books as you referred to the very first one is called i think it's How to Live Well with Sickness. The very first one, which was five

years ago, is called, of all things, How to Be Sick. How to Be Sick. Okay. Yep. Yep. So that book is about being sick. The middle book that you talked about is more focused strictly on Buddhism, and the latest one is about living well with chronic pain and chronic illness. And that is something that you obviously have firsthand experience in. Well, it is because I've been chronically ill now for 14 and a half years. And it took me a while to get to a place where I could write about it in a way that would help other people, hopefully. But it's been a long haul. My husband and I took a trip to Paris, which I live in California. So this was a big trip for us. This was in 2001. And I got sick with a seemingly everyday acute viral infection. And we don't know what kind of virus, what caused it,

where I picked it up, maybe on the airplane. And it's 14 and a half years later and I'm still sick. I never recovered. It somehow triggered some dysfunction in my immune system so that my immune system reads me as my immune system is in this constant battle against a virus which may or may not even be active in my body we don't know none of the doctors know and so I was a law professor at the time, actually, at University of California, Davis, and had to give up my career because I'm housebound most of the time. Once in a while, I meet a friend for coffee for an hour or two just to get out of the house.

But think about how you feel when you have the flu. I call it the flu without the fever. Thank goodness I don't have a fever. But I have those aches and pains and terrible lack of energy and fatigue so that after about an hour of activity, your body gives out and you have to lie down. And so I can't be very far from a place where I can lie down. And it's been difficult. And now back to the rest of the interview with Tony Bernhard. One of the things I like about the books is, and I looked over the first two and I really spent a lot of time with the last one, is it's a combination of really practical strategies for people who are dealing with illness. really practical strategies for people who are dealing with illness,

things that I think are very important in the day-to-day living of that. And like you said, it's infused with a good deal of Buddhist philosophy. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really Know Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal?

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Very few companies who go viral are like totally prepared for what that means. And Zoe Tillman, senior legal reporter. Courts are not supposed to decide elections. Courts are not really supposed to play a big role in choosing our elected leaders. It's for the voters to decide. Follow the Big Take podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I really like the way that you're making the best out of a very difficult situation. One of the things that you say in the book, and I think it comes up a lot of different ways, but I'll just pick this particular reading of it.

But you say, I found myself face to face with that stark reality. A lot of the time we simply do not get our way. And yet it's not the fact that we don't get our way that makes us miserable. It's how we respond to that fact. The question becomes, do we get angry and upset? Or do we tolerate and accept whatever is happening that we don't like. Yes, what I discovered, and it took me four or five years of, maybe despair is too strong a word, but when I left my job, really, I just couldn't do it anymore. I tried to go back part-time, and it was really a bit

of a disaster. I would sit in the classroom, come home and get right into bed. My husband would leave work so he could drive me both ways. And at first, I was very negative about it. I blamed myself because in my world, people get sick, but unless they have a diagnosis of a well-known chronic illness, you get sick with a virus and then you get better. And so I really was blaming myself for not getting better. And I was also in a bit of a panic because my kids were grown and had moved out of the house and my whole life revolved around my work at the law school. I'd been the dean of students there for six years. All my colleagues were there. It was my life and suddenly it was just taken away from me

And here I was in. I was embarrassed. It's embarrassing not to get well when you appear to have some acute illness because everyone was waiting for me to get well and I couldn't pull it off. And I spent, I would say about four years in a pretty dark place and I do think it was my Buddhist background that helped I don't practice Buddhism as a religion but really as a practical path to finding some measure of peace in this life, which can be so difficult. And I began to think again about the Buddhist teachings and how he's right up front with us in that very first noble truth that life can be tough. And if you put actually the first and second one together you get this picture that life can be tough we're in bodies bodies get sick and injured and older

and what makes us unhappy is this is our denying of this as you called it and i call it in the books this stark reality we deny it we don't want to look at it in the face we just want our way we want our desires fulfilled i wanted to get better and i wanted to get back in the classroom. And it took about four years for me to start to realize that if I went on that way, I was never going to be happy again. And I was never going to find any peace of mind because all of my wanting it was not bringing it about we you know if you review your day and think about all of your desires and wants most of them don't get fulfilled and so I began to realize that the only measure of peace I could find was to start where I was, to say, okay, this is where I am. I've contracted some illness that has stumped the doctors and that they can give me some pills here and there for pain relief and that kind of thing. But there doesn't, at this point, seem to be a cure. I'm not the only one this has happened to. Sometimes this is lumped under chronic fatigue syndrome, which is now being

seen as an immune system and a neurological disorder there's still a lot of research that needs to be done because no one really understands it but here i am with this illness that i've been to two dozen doctors at all the best places and none of them can cure it and so at this point and it doesn't mean i don't hope I'll wake up tomorrow better, and I might. I mean, that could happen. Yeah, and that'll be cool. I'll take that. But that isn't how today is for me.

And I began to think, okay, what if I stop beating my head against the wall, blaming myself, wishing for what I can't have, and start to build a life within my limitations, a life based on what I do have. And those limitations need not necessarily be health related. has limitations that's why for me this is a more universal message whether it could be financial limitations it could be relationship issues family issues everyone has difficulties in life and there's some things we can do things about, and there are other things we can't. We can't control the way other people treat us. People sometimes let us down. Any peace with my life had to come, I know this is maybe a bit of a cliche, but has to come from within because it wasn't coming from without.

Right, right. And so I began to think about what I could do within my limitations. And actually, that's when I started writing because I I'd like to teach I like to reach out and try to help other people in that way there's lots of ways to help other people this is how I tried to do it and so now I'd have to do it through the written word because I couldn't be in a classroom and that's when I actually began to write that first book. It was really a measure of accepting that my limitations, I wrote all my books from the bed, actually. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, what you're talking about here, and it comes up on the show a lot, is really the difference between pain, which is inevitable, and then the suffering that we layer on top of it. I'm sure you're, we use the Buddhist parable of the second arrow a lot, you know, on the show of like, you know, we get shot by an arrow and that's painful. And then we start shooting ourselves with the second arrows, which is all the suffering that we get from resisting what is. And I just am really inspired by your writing because you are putting these things to work truly in a difficult situation and making the best out of it.

And I find it really inspiring. Thank you. Yeah, when I think about that second arrow, what I think is, okay, pain is inevitable. And I add to that sorrow, because we lose people that we're close to. I lost my job. That was a source chatter in our mind where we take a simple fact. I'm really sad because my best friend died about 30 years ago. And I look at how I handled it then and how I would handle it now.

It would be very different. Just accepting this is sad, this is a sorrowful moment. I'm grieving and not adding our stories to it. So to me, the second arrow are the stories. And the stories we tell ourselves are usually regrets about the past. Oh, I should have spent more time with her. You know, whatever the regrets are. And then the worries about worrying about the future. And for someone with chronic illness, that's a real problem.

Worrying about what the future of your illness is. My particular worry is what will I do if my husband, who's my caregiver, if my husband develops some medical problems and needs me to take care of him? That's one of my worries. Well, there's a difference between constructive planning, talking to my children and saying, you know, you're going to have to step up to the plate. And this sort of obsessive worrying. That's the second arrow. Yep. I won't get the phrase right, but from a philosopher where he's saying, you know, the person who worries about things that are going to happen in the future is already suffering

from the event. Yes. If this thing happens, it would really be painful. And then we spend years of our lives already inflicting the pain that we are hoping to avoid. And you're right, that difference between being constructive, planning, thinking about solutions, problem solving, and then that ruminating over and over in that dark spot are very different things. then that ruminating over and over in that dark spot are very different things because the fact is i have no idea whether he'll ever develop medical i have no idea that's one of you know

we're talking about life's stark realities but one of them is the inevitability of tough times which you were calling pain and i was adding adding sorrow. And another one is what I think of as the corollary of the universal law of impermanence. And those corollaries are that life is unpredictable and uncertain. And so it just doesn't make sense to spend our time worrying about things that we have no control over and we have no way to predict. We don't know what will come to pass and what won't. And this is why I talk a lot about mindfulness practice, a word that's, you know, overused these days. But to me, the value is that it brings you out of your stories and into your present moment experience. And there's just a lot of value in that.

Because even if the present moment isn't particularly a pleasant one, and it's not always, at least you're not making it worse. Right. By mocking up scenarios, like, for example, if you're experiencing physical pain, this pain will never go away. Oh, Thanksgiving is in two weeks, and I'm going to be in too much pain to even sit at the table. That's the second arrow. All those stories that go on in our minds. And for me, one of the best ways for dealing with that is just consciously bringing yourself into the present moment by taking a few conscious in and out breaths. the present moment with by taking a few conscious in and out breaths and another is always underneath any uh suggestions i have is self-compassion to be kind to yourself about this because one of the

things that happens is maybe this is a third arrow. Right, right. Not only are we worrying, but then we get down on ourselves for worrying. Because we're worrying, yep, yep. Right. And instead, be kind to yourself about it. Oh, this is so painful to be worrying about something I have no control over. have no control over and when you acknowledge the pain of worry the pain of actually if even if we go back to the parable anger jealousy greed resentment those things we hope not to feed the wolf the fact is sometimes we do feed them. Sure. I still get angry.

You know, those things still arise for me. But I've learned not to get down on myself for it by simply bringing them into awareness and saying, this is how I feel. It takes away a lot of their sting sting and it keeps them from intensifying. Because to be able to say, I'm angry and it feels awful. I'm not blaming myself, but there's anger here. That is a huge step toward that anger dissipating because it's lost it doesn't have anything to hook on to anymore because you see it it's like it's another little buddhist story

where the buddha says in effect anger i see you you know resentment see you. And that takes away the power, their power over you. Because they are just arising and passing mind states, you know, our minds are just, I think of them as, you know, computers, information coming in and going out and coming in and going out. And this is really what I said maybe at the very beginning about just because you're angry doesn't mean you need to set it in stone and say, I'm an angry person. Start trying to look at it as just what the mind does that things pop in and pop out pop in and pop out in the same way that we can't control what thoughts and pop into the mind we can't always control what emotions pop in but we can keep them from getting their hooks in us by seeing them with compassion for ourselves

for how painful they are When we're in these states of depression or pain or discouragement, it's easy to believe that that's the way we're always going to feel. You say, you've got a line that says, do not treat discouraging and disheartening thoughts or emotions as permanent fixtures in your mind. And that's really what you're getting to here. It really is. And the proof of that, that they're not permanent, is the universal law of impermanence the the buddha talked about three life experiences that all of us have and one of them is impermanence but that's not something he came up with you'll find that in every spiritual tradition that's why i call it a universal law, where everything around inside us and around us is in constant change. And sometimes people, that scares people. And I understand that,

but I like to say that the universal law of impermanence can be your friend. That's right. Yep. Because the mood of today is not going to be the mood of tomorrow. And if it is, it won't be of the next day. So it allows you to hold disheartening moods and, you know, the blues and that kind of thing. It allows you to hold them more lightly because you know that they're not you. They're what has arisen due to causes and conditions in your life. And if you look back and say, oh, I was so blue yesterday. Why was that? Oh, you can find the causes and conditions

that brought it about. Maybe you were alone for the day. And, you know, I will say that, you know, I'm not a therapist. I'm just, I'm not a therapist. And so there is a difference between moods that arise and pass, like the blues and the bad moods and the down and out moods, and a mood that actually settles in for weeks at a time. I just want to say, you know, that could be the sign of clinical depression, in which case you really should seek the help. I'm Jason Alexander.

And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really Know Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like... Why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you.

And the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Bryan Cranston is with us tonight. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park.

Wayne Knight, welcome to Really, No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really, No Really. Oh, yeah, the opening? Really, no, really. Yeah, really. No, really.

Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really, No, Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Of a professional. Yep. Definitely different things. There's a difference yep so one thing i thought in your book you talk about mindfulness practices that address physical discomfort and we all have physical discomfort at times some people live with it chronically other people live with it you know periodically but i thought it was really interesting because you talk about discomfort and you talk about the three components of it. And so it's not just,

you know, we tend to think of it as the unpleasant physical sensation itself, right? The, I have a headache or I have this thing. But you also say that there are two other components when we're suffering from physical discomfort. The other is your emotional reaction to that discomfort. And then the stories that we tell. That's right. Right. Yeah. And so two out of those three are mental and emotional and you can work with even if you are stuck with chronic pain. Absolutely. And not to trivialize it like, oh, if you just, you know, thought differently, everything would be great. I mean, this is these are not easy things to do, but they are places that you can work with that pain and the emotions that go with them and not have to, you know, as we've

talked about before, suffer more than is necessary. You said they're not easy, and this is why people actually, there are more and more chronic pain clinics that teach these skills. And people will go to, you know, like a month-long course or something to help them because it is a different perspective. And it is fascinating that two out of the three components that make up physical pain are mental in origin and it's not just that they're mental but they can actually increase your pain load because emotions are felt in the body and so for example when you're angry you contract your muscles and so if you have a point of pain you often are contracting without realizing it you're contracting muscles around it which increases your overall pain load and so they're developing mindfulness-based stress relief but they're really

in my mind mindfulness-based pain relief because i they're really, in my mind, mindfulness-based pain relief, because I have heard from just, well, really thousands of people who are finding relief from physical pain through some of these mindfulness practices that allow them to separate out what's happening. Okay, that's the actual physical pain right there. Now, this is all that I'm adding to it that makes it worse. And when you're able to see that and quiet the mind in that way, it really can help with pain. And I think the important thing to think about in regards to that, and basically all the

things we've been talking about is this is not like, oh, great, Tony told me that if I just become mindful, then everything will be fine. These are skills that develop. And the first few times we do these things, there isn't necessarily an immediate relief. It works perfectly. I mean, it's taken me a long time to develop, to whatever extent that I have, some of these skills about being able to distance myself from thoughts and emotions or to be able to not shoot the second arrow. But those things take time. And I think my tendency and a lot of people's tendency is to do this from thoughts and emotions or to be able to, you know, not, not shoot the second arrow, but those,

those things take time. And I think my tendency and a lot of people's tendency is to do this thing once or twice and go, well, that didn't really work and then give up on it. And I always think it's important to frame it as it's not like taking a pill, but they are real and true ways to improve the quality of your life. I'm glad you've raised that because it's absolutely true that it takes time. And that's why I always tell people, think in terms of baby steps. The only thing that I talk about a lot that sometimes people write to me and say that they felt immediate relief was my continual emphasis on treating yourself kindly and with compassion. And the way I put it is, treat yourself the way you would treat a loved one of yours who is in need. And for some people, that flips a switch because they just never thought of doing that. So it depends where you are in your life. A teaching can just go in one ear and out another, or it can have an immediate profound effect, or it can take practice. And all I can say is that the more you practice and then set the intention when you're done, say, let me practice this again. Set the intention to practice again, because the more you do it,

the easier it becomes. Definitely true. And I'm still working on it. Yeah, I think we all are. So we're nearing the end of our time, but what I'd like to do is ask you one last question or bring up something that you wrote in your most recent book that I loved. You talk about something called the want monster, W-A-N-T, monster. Yes. Well, the want monster is that state of mind we get ourselves into where we think that if we can, it's an if-only state of mind. If only, if only I could get my health back, I'd be happy the rest of my life. If only he would love me, I'll be happy the rest of my life.

If only I could get a Tesla, whatever it is, right? But that is not where happiness resides. Happiness comes from being at peace with your life as it is. Because even when you satisfy that want monster, I guarantee another want is going to take its place. I love the way you write about it because you talk about how intense it can be and how, how it seems so clear. Like it's when you're in that state, like I want this thing and if I have it, I will be happy. It is so intense and so strong that it's even hard to question that it's true because it just is, you know, the thirst, the word that's

used, you know, often is an unquenchable thirst. And so it's very hard to see through it in those moments. And I really like that idea of identifying it as, you know, as this thing, the want monster. For me, it's if only I could go back to Hawaii. Oh, that's the want monster. I remember one trip to Hawaii where my husband and I had a big fight. But we mock up that I don't have it to some degree, but I have come a long way with it. But I think for a great number of years, I didn't even know to recognize it as a fallacy. I totally bought into it and I believed it. I think part of the problem is that those things do work for a very brief time. You know, if it didn't work at all, like if getting the new car didn't feel good for a day or a week, it'd be easy to see through the illusion. That's a really good point. Yeah. But it does work, albeit very temporarily. Yeah. So I think that's what what makes it hard. But it's one of my favorite topics. So I want to get to it. So thank you so much for taking the time to be on the show. Like I said, I really enjoyed your writing.

I found it, I always find it inspiring to see somebody who is really kind of in the center of the ring with this stuff and really living it. So thank you so much. Thank you, Eric. I really enjoyed this. Okay, have a great evening.

You too. Bye. Take care. Bye. You can learn more about Tony Bernhard and this podcast at oneufeed.net slash Tony. That's T-O-N-I. Thanks.