The One You Feed - What Puzzles Can Teach Us About Life with A.J. Jacobs

Episode Date: August 1, 2023

Embark on a mind-expanding journey with author AJ Jacobs as he unravels the paradox of personal growth through puzzles! While challenging assumptions and finding joy in the process, A.J. explores the fascinating conflict between perseverance and giving up too easily and how this applies to solving actual puzzles and the puzzles of life. In this episode, you'll be able to: Unearth the potential of puzzles to develop your cognitive skills and problem-handling capabilities Find the balance between curiosity and empathy in facilitating smoother disagreements resolution Discover how setting goals and undertaking profound quests can lend purpose to your life Sharpen your capacity to notice finer details for a fuller and more satisfying life experience Gain insights into the fine equilibrium between persistence and knowing when to step back To learn more, click here!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I believe in life, there's no one right answer. Like you say, there's a series of answers, and some are better than others. And part of the puzzle is figuring out what is the best answer. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter.

It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction. How they feed their good wolf. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure,

and does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to reallyknowreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. The Really Know Really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Thanks for joining us. Our guest on thisRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is A.J. Jacobs, the author of four New York Times bestsellers, including The Know It All, Drop Dead Healthy, and The Year of Living Biblically. A.J. has given four TED Talks to have total views of more than 10 million. He's a contributor to NPR's Weekend Edition and writes for the New York Times and Esquire magazine, among others. Today, AJ and Eric discuss his book, The Puzzler, one man's quest to solve the most baffling puzzles ever, from crosswords to jigsaws to the meaning of life. Hey, AJ, welcome back.

Delighted to be back. Thank you, Eric. Yeah, I am really excited to have you on, as I was saying to you before the show. So far, I've enjoyed reading everything that you have written. The book that we'll primarily be focusing on today is called The Puzzler, One Man's Quest to Solve the Most Baffling Puzzles Ever, From Crosswords to Jigsaws to the Meaning of life. So we'll get to that as well as some other things in a minute, but we're going to start like we always do with the parable of the two wolves. And you answered this not that long ago. I think we talked sometime in November, so you've had only a few months, but I'll read it and see what you

think about it this time. So in the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with a grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops, and they think about it for a second, and they look up at their grandparent, and they say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. I love that parable. I love that you start off every episode with it. Now, I can't remember,

because I have a terrible memory, what I said. So this might be a repetition. And if it is, just tell me and I'll come up with something else on the spot. But what it immediately reminds me of is I wrote a book about gratitude. And in that book, I have my own version of the two wolves. That version is everyone in them has two sides, the Mr. Rogers side and the Larry David side. And of course, the Larry David side is the one that is great at finding the negative and complaining. And the Mr. Rogers side is the one where you're able to find gratitude, appreciation, kindness. And I was born, I believe, with a very big Larry David side. I was very good at, you know, the classic, if you hear 99 compliments and one insult, what do you focus on?

And so I think the Larry David side, which we all have wired into us, is the one that draws us to that. So my book on gratitude was trying to build up the Mr. Rogers side. And it is exactly what your parable says. The way to make Mr. Rogers or the kind wolf stronger is to feed it. And you feed it with thoughts. So I would try to remember the hundreds of things that go right every day instead of the three or four that go wrong. If I'm online at the pharmacy and it's taking 25 minutes, I just try to stop my brain from racing and put a little pause in it and say, you know, first of all, the fact that we have modern medicine in this pharmacy, that's crazy. I've done a lot of historical books. And one of the mantras I always say to myself is surgery without anesthesia, because you read about

surgery without anesthesia, and you will be grateful that you live in current times. As many problems as we had, it is still better than 200 years ago. And I'll try to remind myself that, you know, I have this brief time on earth. I try to notice, I'll try to remind myself that, you know, I have this brief time on Earth. I try to notice. I'll try to look around and be like, oh, you know, that fluorescent light, it's interesting. Look, can you believe that someone actually invented that? And people in factories made the glass and other people shipped it with a truck. And, you know, that is pretty remarkable. So that is my attempt to feed the good wolf slash Mr. Rogers.

So I'm curious about an element of that. You do a lot of books where you sort of embark on a particular quest for a period of time. I'm going to thank a thousand people. I'm going to live biblically for a year. I'm sure you could expand the list. There's a bunch of them. What I'm curious about is how much of what happens in those little experiments sort of sticks with you and, you know, carries on into your life. So for example, like if I was very focused on just gratitude for a month, I would be

very grateful for a month, right? I would get that skill down to some degree. And then as my attention turned towards all my other things, that would tend to sort of flag. So I'm curious, how do you, if you do, integrate some of the lessons that come out of your different books to make sure that they remain sort of in your life? Yeah, great question. And I do feel that I take away a handful of lessons from every project. As you say, I could never continue to live completely biblically. I shaved my beard, and I stopped stoning adulterers with tiny pebbles, but it definitely, each one of them has changed my life in a small or not so small way. And overall, they have a profound effect. So, I'll just give you some examples of takeaways that have stayed with me. First of all, following all the rules of the Bible, again, that overlapped with the gratitude because the Bible has a lot to say about gratitude

and it kind of spawned the gratitude project in a way. The gratitude project, as you say, it's a discipline. If you don't pay attention to it, it might fade away if you don't feed that wolf. So I have different rituals that I'm very conscious of and very intentional about. They could be when I'm going to sleep, I try to think of one thing that I'm grateful for that day related to every letter of the alphabet. So A could be, I'm grateful my parents named me AJ instead of my full name is Arnold, but I like AJ. So I'm grateful for that. I'm grateful for, I don't know, Bear Grylls. He's an interesting guy on TV for B. You have to work at it, but it has definitely stayed with me.

The health book, I wrote a book about trying to be the healthiest person alive. Now, of course, I can't do everything I did during the book because it was literally a 24-hour-a-day job because I was trying to follow every piece of health advice from every doctor and nutritionist. And yeah, it's very stressful, which is not healthy. So that was actually one of the takeaways is don't get overly obsessed with health because stress is not healthy. But I have massive takeaways from that. I still write my emails on a treadmill desk. I still have these sort of rules of thumb, these heuristics that stay with me. Like, if I'm going for a snack, go to the fridge.

Don't go to the cupboard. Don't go to the pantry. Because the fridge has real food. Real food rots. And what's in your pantry, a lot of times is it may be chemically stable, but it's not good for you. It's going to make you lethargic and fat and all those other things. So every project has given me some wisdom takeaway, but I just want to stress it's always an ongoing process. So it's not like being grateful or compassionate automatically becomes natural to me.

A little bit, maybe. A little bit it sinks in, but it's still a discipline, I think, for any of the good stuff. You still have to work at it. You still have to make an appointment. You still have to be intentional about it. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think that's, you know, the other part of the parable is that basic idea that we just have to keep sort of choosing again and again and again and again.

What direction do we want to go? What's important to us? Who's the person we want to be? Absolutely. Yeah. And the other thing about the parable that I think is interesting is, in a sense, you're saying it depends on whom you feed. And feeding is actually a very active process. You are actually choosing to give food to that wolf. And that is one of the

themes that I have seen recurring through all of my projects, which is action, behavior is very powerful. And I think we talked about this last time, but I love the idea of, it's not just thoughts that change your behavior. You can change your thoughts by changing your behavior. And I might've quoted this. I wish that I came up with this quote myself. There's a big debate on the internet who came up with it, but it's a wonderful quote. It says, it's easier to act your way into a new way of thinking than to think your way into a new way of acting. And I find this so often, even with gratitude, just forcing myself to thank people, even if I'm in a grumpy mood.

You do it enough and it sort of tricks your mind and your mind catches up. And there's tons of science behind it. It's the basis of cognitive behavioral therapy. So it's ancient wisdom, but also huge evidence behind it. Yeah, it may be the phrase I've used the most on this show over the years. And I heard it very early in recovery. The idea was very sound, which was basically, your brain is just going to be thinking about heroin all the time. I mean, that's just what it's going to do. That's what it's wired to do. That's chemically what's going to happen. Like you may not be able to turn that off right now. Right. Right. But here are the actions. Do these five things every day. Do these things, you know. And over time, if you do that,

then the thinking will come along. And so it was a huge lesson for me that was critically important in recovery, but turns out to be great advice for everything in life. I love that because, yeah, I'm not in recovery, so I don't know so much about it, but I'm fascinated and delighted that this is also powerful in recovery. I guess it covers every part of life. Yeah. So speaking of potential addictions, I've got to know whether you are at four in the morning doing the spelling bee this morning. It is true. I do have an addiction. It's not good.

I think any addiction is not good. But as far as addictions go, this one is perhaps one of the less dangerous ones. And I'm addicted to puzzles. I am addicted to puzzles. And one of the puzzles that I am addicted to is called the Spelling Bee. And it appears on the New York Times website cruelly at 4 a.m. or 3 a.m., I believe. I don't know why they do that. But every day there's a new one. And every day when I wake up in the middle of the night to go to the restroom, I'm like, when I wake up in the middle of the night to go to the restroom, I'm like, well, I really should not check the new puzzle, but I really want to as well. So I do. And it's just, it is not healthy,

but puzzles give me so much joy and I'm happy to talk about why and why I think they're a force for good, despite the potential for addiction. I do think overall puzzles are a force for good, despite the potential for addiction. I do think overall, puzzles are a force for good. Yeah, that is a good puzzle. That's the kind of puzzle that I can generally solve. And so I like it. Do you do it every day? No, you know, I did it every day for a while. And then I'm not a hardcore puzzler. It just isn't for whatever reason in my nature. But yes, for a while, I was doing it every day. I was not waking up at 4 a.m. to check it. I suppose they're trying to get the London crowd in the morning, right? Which is why they're doing that would be my guess. That's a great theory. I love that.

You know? Yeah. But still, not so good for their core readership in New York. That's right. I appreciate them trying, but please, next time, just save it till eight. So I'm going to give you a puzzle for us to go into. I love it. Now, this may not be an actual puzzle. I don't know. This may be a question, but I'm framing it as a puzzle to get your attention. So it is this.

What does living biblically, tackling the toughest puzzles, and gratitude have in common? Well, I love that puzzle. I have a few answers. One, I've written books about all of them. Maybe not the best answer. I think that a lot of it has to do with my quest for self-improvement and that I feel I'm quite a fixer-upper and I can always use help in getting better. And as we talked about, it's a process. I don't feel I'm anywhere near perfect, but I think just having the quest, I love having a quest. And sometimes the quests are admittedly

a little silly, but I just think the activity of having a quest is one, as humans, we're built for. And I think we're built for puzzles in the biggest sense of the world. The first puzzle was, how do I eat? What do I eat? Who do I meet with? Those are big puzzles. And that is why I think many of us are sort of drawn to these smaller puzzles, but which are good training for the big puzzles. Good answer. How did I do? Did you have a better answer? You did fine. Yes, you passed. No, no, I had no answer. I had no answer. I just figured they were three things you've written about, and I wanted to see how you were

going to tie them together. And we're going to get to puzzles in a second, I promise. But what you just said about Quest made me think of something that you wrote for Men's Health Magazine sometime, I think, late last year. And the title of the article is The Life-Changing Power of Chasing Absurd Fitness Goals. And in it, well, why don't you tell us what the goal is or what the quest is in that one? Sure. Since I wrote a book on health, I've always been a fan of the treadmill desk. So putting my laptop on, I just have a little jerry-rigged system that I do myself, and I type emails while walking. But walking 10,000 steps a day was fine, but it kind of got a little boring. So I thought, let me try a new one. And I noticed

I walk on the treadmill at an incline, like a 12 degree incline. And my treadmill keeps track of how many vertical feet I walk every day. And I said, oh, well, that's novel and interesting. And I figured I walked about 800 vertical feet a day, which is about the height of the Eiffel Tower. And I thought, well, what if I just kept track and spent the year trying to walk as high as I can? Could I walk to space? Could I be like Neil Armstrong? And I figured, yes, because space officially begins about 330,000 feet above Earth. So in a year, I would walk about to space. It made me laugh because, as you say, it's such an absurd quest, but it stuck with me. And I put it on Facebook and I

said, I'm going to walk to space. And what I loved is that there were 30, 40 people who also said, that is a great idea. I want to walk to space too. So we became a community of spacewalkers, and we kept track on Facebook. You know, I'm up at the height of a hot air balloon. Oh, I'm, you know, where falcons fly. And it was just, or Kilimanjaro. And it was just a blast and an interesting way to form a community. And like it said in the headline, there is something wonderful about having this absurd goal, whether or not you reach it, just the idea of having something that you wake up every morning and, I'm walking to space. That is interesting. Let me keep going. And one of the psychologists I talked to about this had a good point. He talked about sort of man's, human's need for putting meaning on quests.

So saying, I'm going to walk to 330,000 feet, that is much less appealing than saying, I'm going to walk to space. The space part gives it a meaning. It gives it a reference, a context. So that has been fun. I've walked about 400 vertical feet today, and I've still got a ways to go. Yeah, I love that. And it brought up in me some questions, because what I do with a lot of people that I've done work with, and in my spiritual habits

program and all that, is talk about the value of really small steps, like not taking on too much, right? Because we often come out of the gate too hot, right? And we're going to suddenly work out for two hours a day, and we're going to start writing in our journal, and we're going to take up painting, and we fail. I wanted to think a little bit about what you're saying, because I recognize instantly in it truth. Like, yeah, of course, like a quest like that. What a great thing. We'll see people who say, I'm going to train for a marathon. It orients their training. And then there's also the small step piece. And what I thought a little bit about was that what you're talking about is an accumulation goal. Yes. And the nature of an accumulation goal is a good one because it's not a pass fail. It's not,

I'm going to work out six days a week. And when I only work out four, I give up because I failed. You can't fail. You could not hit the goal as quickly as you wanted to. But the accumulation goal continues to add up. It's like with sobriety, you know, in sobriety, abstinence has been the thing that everybody's aimed for forever. And there are very good reasons for that, right? Because if you can't get to abstinence, you may not get rid of the

psychological craving, which is torture, right? So abstinence has a place, but the grading ourselves at either 0% or 100%, I think is really detrimental. I've got a client who every day that she's sober, she puts a marble in a jar. You know, she wasn't able to get to, you know, 100% sobriety all the time, but we're able to look at over a month, a year, two years, like, I mean, there are a ton of marbles in that jar. And so it's allowed her to really see progress and feel progress. And that's kind of what your space goal was. When I thought about it, I was like, oh, this is an accumulation goal that is done by a series of daily walks.

There's a couple of things I want to dig into, because I just love what you said. First, I love the idea, yes, I agree, goals should not be all or nothing. I love the quote, most of life is not an on-off switch, it's a dimmer. And so this goal, walking the space, yes, it's a goal, but there are so many sub-goals along the way. You know, walking, I've walked to the top of Everest. I've walked to the top of five Everests. And so it's fun. Like you said, it's very much like the chips or the marbles. The second part I loved is that I am also a huge fan of micro goals and step by step. So it's an interesting balance between having these big, crazy, wild goals and the more everyday goal of just doing one small thing. And actually, I use micro goals all the time, including to get on the treadmill.

Right. Because if I said I have to walk a thousand vertical feet today, that would not be motivating. Instead, I say to myself, all right, I'm just going to put on my sneakers. I'm not going to guarantee anything after that. I put them on and I've got a little momentum. And I say, okay, well, you know what? I'm going to get on the treadmill, maybe walk for 30 seconds. I'm not going to promise myself anything more than that. You're on the treadmill. You're like, all right, I'm here. I can make it to five to 10 minutes. And it's the same with writing. I mean, thank God I don't have to sit down every morning and say, I'm going to write a book because I would be paralyzed. So instead, I say, today I'm going to write a third of this section on, say, you know, I have a section on

pencils. I'm going to write one third of the section on pencils today. That is my goal. And that allows me to continue as opposed to the big scary goal. But eventually I know my goal, my ultimate goal is to write a book. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. I'm working on a book too, and it's new for me. So I'm a new writer. So for me, I'm not even at the point where I can say today I'm going to write X because I have no sense of how long X takes. Right. So I always think it's interesting to think about how we measure things, right? So for me, the thing that feels important to measure right now is just effort. Did I sit down and write for an hour? And just like you, I often have to ease my way into that. Like just sit down and just put your fingers on the keyboard, right? Like, okay, get started

five minutes and you can quit. Right. And then I usually get to my 90 minute goal, but it's interesting because knowing what to measure can be really important because if I was trying to measure, I mean, I'm actually in a book proposal phase. So, you know, write, you know, four chapter summaries that could be a real way to set myself up to fail because I'm not experienced enough to know what I'm capable of yet. You, on the other hand, have been doing this a long time. You're probably a little bit better able to say, all right, this is what I think I can get done in a writing block and have it be a little bit more accurate.

So, you know, when working with clients or for listeners listening to this, I think it's really important to ask yourself, like, what am I measuring and how? Because it makes a real difference. Yeah, I love that. First of all, I'm very excited for your book. If there's anything I can do to help, please let me know. Second, I do that same thing. Sometimes my goal will not be, I'm going to write a third of the pencil section. Instead, it's, I am going to spend 25 minutes just trying to write something. And sometimes it's just nothing's coming to me.

So I'll write about the pigeon bopping its head outside the windowsill. And just the feeling of pushing the keys and getting a little momentum gives me a little more courage to keep going and eventually write something. But that's also a very important strategy I have to myself is I say, I am a kind of writer who it takes a while to warm up. So I try to block out two hours to write. And I tell myself, you know, the first 30 minutes of what you write is probably going to be crap. It's going to be unusable. And that's okay.

That's part of the process. Don't freak out. And that is very reassuring. Because then if I'm not typing something masterful in the first three minutes, I'm like, I knew this was going to happen. Just keep going. It'll get there. Yeah. Yep. It's that lead with the action, the thought will follow, right? Right.

It's getting started, which is, I think, oftentimes, at least 80% of the battle is getting started. Just getting started, it doesn't always get you through, right? Then you have to learn to sort of stay in it sometimes, which is often just a variation on that, right? At least for me, which is like, just keep going. Five more minutes, you know, just stay with it. Five more minutes, whether it be on the Peloton or writing or preparing a talk or anything that feels difficult, there's a desire to be like, get me out of here. I agree. And that's why micro goals, I think, are so helpful for just getting started. I did read about, I think it was Hemingway who had a good strategy. I don't use it,

but in case it's helpful to any of your listeners or to you, he would, at the end of the day, when he stopped writing, he would stop before the last sentence that he had written. You might have heard of this, but he would have the last sentence in his mind. And that way, when he picked up the next day, he would be like, all right, I'm not starting from scratch. I know the next sentence. And then that would give him a little momentum. That's a great one. Okay, puzzles.

I'm actually going to get finally to puzzles. And you pose a question early in the book. Are puzzles an addictive peril or are they crucial mind-sharpening tools? Did you come to a conclusion? Well, my bias, as you might suspect, is I am very pro-puzzle. So, I mean, of course, everything is a tool and can be abused. But in my opinion, puzzles are mostly a force for good. And I loved that puzzle that you posed earlier, because you said, I don't know if it's a puzzle,

what is the connection between? But to me, I am very liberal in what I consider a puzzle. And one of my favorite quotes is from Quincy Jones, the musician, because he's been known to say his life philosophy is, I don't have problems, I have puzzles. And I love that because the word problem is very intimidating and very negative. It implies maybe there is no solution. Whereas a puzzle is very inviting. And it's like, I'm going to roll up my sleeves and I'm going to solve this puzzle. And so I do try to say, you know, I'm having a conflict with my wife. All right, this is a puzzle. Let's see if I can make this marriage work better.

That's the puzzle. If I'm, you know, struggling to figure out what my book is, it's not a problem. It's a puzzle. Let's solve this puzzle. So to me, it's just a very motivating frame of a way to look at life. I love that quote. I was actually going to ask you, what's the difference between a problem and a puzzle? And when you were talking, it just reminded me of something that I often say to clients, which is, this is just a puzzle for us to figure out. Because what I'm trying to get from is an orientation around I'm bad, or I'm not the

kind of person who can stick with things, or I'm lazy, or I'm like, we just haven't cracked the puzzle yet. I love that you, yeah. Of how you make this work. Actually, until you just said that, I hadn't even equated that even after reading an entire book of yours on puzzles. So that's puzzling. That's stupid.

I know, I couldn't resist. Listen, I am not going to critique. I am a fan. Anytime you want to say that. Well, one of my favorite quotes also that I mentioned in the book is, I heard it from a child psychologist who was giving a lecture on how to raise kids during the pandemic. And he said, don't get furious, get curious. And I love a good rhyming piece of advice. Yes, rhymes good. They don't always work. But this one I

believe is very true and profound. And he was just using it for child rearing. You know, if your kid is throwing a tantrum, don't get angry at them. Try to figure out what's the puzzle. Why are they doing it? How can we stop it from happening in the future? But I apply it to everything. So it's so easy to get angry these days. That seems to be sort of a favorite emotion. And I understand because I'll read the newspaper or the media and I'll get angry. Or if I'm in a conversation with someone from the other side of the political

spectrum, my default is to get angry. Why do you think that? But instead, I find it much more productive to say, all right, this is a puzzle. Let's get curious. Why do you believe what you believe? Why do I believe what I believe? Is there any evidence that could change one of our minds? Where do we go from here, even if we continue to disagree? That is going to be much more productive than trying to berate them or get berated, which is just going to polarize both of us and make us more entrenched in our position and unhappy. I mean, I find being angry to be an unpleasant emotion. So if I can reframe it as a curious puzzle that has a positive solution, then I'm going to be much happier in any conversation I have. Yeah, it makes me think of, I think this is from a book called Crucial Conversations,

which is a really great book about how to communicate. And I feel like the question posed in there is, what would have to be going on in someone's mind for a, you know, well-meaning person to act this way? And so now you've created a puzzle for yourself, right? You've created that curiosity. Well, why? And it's partially what I've always loved about the Buddhist framing of the world in that recognizing that, you know, the commonality that we all have as every creature wants to avoid pain and experience more pleasure. It is universal at the bottom line underneath all of it. That is what we all want. We all have it in common. So if you start from there, then you can become curious about, all right, that's what this person's trying to achieve. Now they're going

about it in this way. Why would they go about it that way? Why are they picking that strategy? For me, it's always a way of, like you're saying, it's a way of getting curious. I love that. And I also love the idea that as different as people are, they can still get in each other's minds. And I think that we are all humans and we all can understand the desire to be happy or to be fulfilled, to help others and the dislike and the horribleness of pain. So yeah, I think it's a great way to remind ourselves what we have in common as well. Hey, everyone, this is Jenny. One of my absolute favorite things is when we hear from listeners of the show. And something we hear quite often is that one of the biggest obstacles to feeding the good wolf is remembering. Because life is busy and we get caught up in routines and we're all on

autopilot so much of the time. So to help with that, we've started sending a couple of text messages after each episode is released to listeners who sign up for them. And it's something we're offering for free. A listener wrote us and said, the messages caused me to pause, even if just for a moment, and help me to remember important bits of wisdom, bringing them to the forefront of my mind. Remembering is the hardest part and the text messages are super helpful. So if you'd like to hear from us a few times a week via text, go to oneufeed.net slash text

and sign up for free. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really Know Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like... Why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer.

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And you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So I think the answer to your question about whether puzzles are a addictive peril or a crucial mind sharpening tool is, of course, it's just in how we use them, right? I mean, nearly anything. I mean, even a substance like alcohol, there's plenty of arguments for the good that it does. And there's plenty of arguments for the awful that it does. You know, when I say the good that it does, the benefits it brings people, right? The enjoyment that it brings people. So I want to jump ahead to a section that you wrote about the Rubik's Cube puzzle. And I'm just going to read what you wrote because I think it gets to

some of what we're talking about here, which is, this brings up a big question I've been wrestling with for years. How many of life's messy problems could we solve like a Rubik's cube or a pizza recipe? Are there step-by-step algorithms to happiness and success? I desperately want there to be, right? I've always been a sucker for tools like 123 Magic that give you the recipe for raising kids or articles like 10 Steps to Beating Depression. Yes, that section, just to give some quick background, I love all kinds of puzzles, but my true first love is crossword and word puzzles. And I'm not very good at Rubik's Cubes, but Rubik's Cubes are perhaps the best-selling toy of all time, or puzzle of all time. 400 million people have bought a Rubik's Cube. And I interviewed some of

these Rubik's Cube fanatics, including this hilarious guy named Jeff Varvanos, who was one of the first Rubik's Cube champions way back in 1981, I believe, early 80s. And he won one of the very first tournaments. And he won, as all Rubik's Cube champions do, with a series of algorithms, which is a series of steps. So if the Rubik's Cube has, you know, eight reds and one green, then you do this series of steps and you will get all red. Now, he did not go on to devote his life solely to Rubik's Cubes. Instead, he became one of the great pizza chefs in all the world. And he actually wrote a manifesto, which he says was the number one pizza recipe on the internet for many years. Maybe it still is. And it's how to make the perfect pizza. And it is hilarious

because it's not short. It's like 45 pages. And it is like the most detailed thing you can imagine because he tested everything. He tried 45 different types of oregano. He let the dough sit for five minutes, for eight and a half minutes, for 11 minutes. And so he has, through experimentation, figured out what he believes is the ultimate piece of pizza. And his argument is everything in life can be this. Whether it's a marriage, whether it's dancing, whether it's your career, there is a step-by-step way. Now, my feeling is there are ways to improve our lives that involve step-by-step. A lot of them. A lot more than people realize.

But I'm also a little skeptical that everything can be boiled down to a step-by-step routine. But I will say, I think I do a lot in my own life where I have built up a step-by-step routine that makes me happy. And just to give you one example that popped into my head is I have a little card of everything that I want to do every morning, like my morning ritual. And I'm sure there's a lot of good stuff on to-do lists, and those are really helpful. I mean, there's a very popular book a few years ago. So this is my morning to-do list, and I find it very conducive to my happiness. So it's got the regular brush your teeth, but it's also got and send the note to my mom on what I'm grateful for that day. But it's also got some mental stuff.

what I'm grateful for that day. But it's also got some mental stuff. I wrote down memento mori, which means remember death, which is a classic. Stoics did it way back in ancient Greece to remind yourself life is fleeting. Try not to get stuck on the small stuff. I even, and this might be a little morbid for some of your listeners, I even, on my computer, I have a rotating series of photos. 95% of them are my family and happiest memories, but 5% of them are actually friends who I've lost. Just to remind myself, you know, I lost friends. First of all, it's nice to remember them. But secondly, I like to remind myself, that could be me. That could be me any day now. And then I was worried you were going to say 5% of them are rotting corpses or something,

which certain Buddhist traditions would meditate in the charnel grounds, right? That's where they would go to do it, you know, in the cemetery or where they were burning bodies. So I'm happy that you're remembering friends that are gone, not corpses. I prefer the sort of the happier memento mori. And in fact, I do have on my desktop, I have a little picture of a skull, but it's like a fun psychedelic colorful skull. I didn't want like a scary, depressing skull. So yes, I feel there's a room for sort of happier memento mori. But anyway, that to me is a very good way to go through the morning. And it is step by step. It's not foolproof. I'm still sometimes depressed in the morning, but it structures my day and it reminds me of healthier ways to think. I love this because I too share this question of how much of life can we turn into

practical steps to creating a better life and how much of life is too complex, too complicated for that. And, you know, I guess like most things I land somewhere in the middle that like, I just think there are some things like life is complex. Humans are complex. Emotions are complex. I mean, health is complex. There's so many variables that go into so many different things and we're all different. Even the perfect pizza, the flaw there is that I'm not going to think the perfect pizza is the pizza that he thinks is perfect, right? Great point. You know, so even there on something like that, that's the advantage of puzzles, as you often say in the book, which is that there is an answer in most of them. There's an actual right answer.

The jigsaw puzzle goes together one way. The crossword puzzle goes together one way. And that is very satisfying because I don't think a lot of life is that way. Well, absolutely. That is sort of the allure of puzzles. They're sort of the platonic ideal, and they always have that one right answer. And I believe in life, there's no one right answer. Like you say, there's a series of answers, and some are better than others. And part of the

puzzle is figuring out what is the best answer. But having the perspective that there is an answer, whether it's perfect or not, I think is very helpful. Yeah, I'm with you on that. I was thinking as I was reflecting on you and the spelling bee and how I played the spelling bee for a while and then stopped. And I did wordle for a while and stopped and waffle for a while and stopped. I get a little bit of a thing. But there's two things I tend to keep doing, one of which I am certain should not qualify as a puzzle because it's too mindless, which is play solitaire. It's just, I can't give myself credit.

It's just a mindless diversion. But the other one is backgammon. And you bring up chess in the book as a type of puzzle. And I find backgammon a fascinating one because I feel like it mirrors life to a certain extent. And what I mean by that is that there is skill, right? You can be a better or worse backgammon player, but there is also randomness because you are rolling dice. You know, if the person you're playing against has much better dice rolls than you, it doesn't matter how skillfully you play that, right? You're just going to win. And so I think that to me, that mirrors life a little bit in that, like, just take health. There's lots that we can do to be skillful about our health. And then there's just

a randomness element to it. You can do all the right things and still get lung cancer. You can do all the right things and still get hit by a car. And so I was just reflecting on backgammon as sort of a puzzle, but also sort of, you know, not exactly a puzzle because there isn't a right answer. Wow, I love that. First of all, congrats on the Backgammon. That is a wonderful game. I mean, the people I know who are into games, it's underrated. It's been around since ancient times.

It's had some crazes, sort of like the Rubik's Cube in the 80s. I forget what year there was a particular craze, in the 60s maybe. But I also love the way you think about it as a metaphor for life. And I 100% agree that we really, certainly I did, underestimate the amount of luck that is involved in life. And I think it's very important. It's important to my own happiness to remember that luck plays. I can do everything right, but still something happens to me. I think it's important for compassion. Yes. You know, seeing people who are down on their luck, literally, like, they might have worked hard, they might have done made a lot of

great decisions, but then a tornado ripped up their house. And that's not their fault. So have a little compassion. But yes, I think luck plays a part. And interestingly, I've had this debate with my son, who's a big chess player, because there are some people who say that even in chess, there's a lot of luck. And it's a controversial statement, but I kind of believe it out to be a brilliant move because it opens up these possibilities that no one would have predicted. So I think luck is in play everywhere, even in those things that seem totally skill-based. That's interesting. I'd never heard of anybody think of chess in that way. That's an interesting way to think about it. I'd like to turn now and see if we can extract some of the lessons that you got out of puzzles. The way the book is set

up just for readers is that you go through a series of different types of puzzles, you know, Rubik's Cube and jigsaw puzzles and crossword puzzles and mazes and all these different kinds. And you sort of talk about your adventures with each and your attempt to solve the most difficult of each kind, which cracks me up. Not so successfully always. But usually leads you somewhere interesting in the process. Yes.

And I love that. And so we've talked about one of the benefits of puzzles is sort of the meta benefit of curiosity and seeing, right? But there are also many more specific benefits I find. And one is also something we've touched on is flexibility of thinking and not falling in love with your hypothesis and saying it's got to be this way. And also, relatedly, thinking outside the box, which is a cliche, but I find with using it, because that cliche actually comes from a puzzle. Many of your listeners have probably seen this puzzle. It's the one with nine dots arranged in a square, and you have to use a pencil to try to connect all the dots in as few lines as possible. And the best way to do it is to go literally outside the box. You have to draw a line so that it's way outside the box and then diagonally it'll connect. So let me give you one example of the importance of not being attached to a certain way of

thinking. And you may have seen it in the book, so you may know the answer. But there's two girls in a classroom sitting in front of the teacher. They were born on the same day, in the same week, in the same month, in the same year, to the same mother, but they are not twins. What's going on here? Go back through. I need to listen very closely. Yes. And I certainly did not get this.

I am going to give you a hint. So, but I would not get this without a hint. Yes, there are two girls. They were born same day, same time, same year to the same mother, but they're not twins. What's going on? So to just to give you a little strategy or tool to cracking these kinds of puzzles is one way is look at your assumptions. Your assumptions are always something to examine. So in this case, you're thinking, okay, let's look at the word twins. A twin is when two people are born on the same day. Two people are born on the same day. But why does it, in this scenario, there are two people, but maybe you're assuming that there are only two people.

Maybe there's more than two people. So, what might be going on there? They're triplets. Or quadruplets or quintuplets. Yep. So, yes, you sort of, we fall into this assumption, this default, and we have to take a step back. Another method I find useful in attacking everyday life problems is to look at the problem upside down. Look at it reverse, just inside out, and then see what happens. So for instance, there's this classic puzzle, same idea, it's called lateral thinking puzzle. There's a man and he's in a room with concrete

walls on all sides. The floor is dirt. The ceiling is also concrete, but there is a skylight. So the man starts digging. He has a shovel. He starts digging a hole. He knows that the walls go down 50 feet. There's no way he's going to dig his way out of this room. But he keeps digging. What's going on? Why is he digging? Well, because he's building a pile tall enough to climb on out of the skylight. Exactly. You nailed it. Well, but it was in the book. I did solve it. I did solve it. In the book, I did solve it, but not that quickly, right?

Right. I don't want to give listeners a false impression of my abilities. I did solve it, but I had to sit and think on it for a little bit of time. Yeah. To me, the way to solve that one is, again, to think exactly the opposite. And you see that in a lot of great ideas. Even the assembly line was kind of that kind of thinking. So instead of having everyone go to the car, the car would come to them as they sat there.

Now, of course, assembly lines have their downsides. They're not good for human meaning, but they are good for creating cars. There's a puzzle maker. I am a classic butcher of pronunciations of names. So makikaji? Yes, that is an excellent way to say it, I think. I mean, your listeners can correct if we get it wrong. Yes, yes. You were on Tim Ferriss's podcast, and he would certainly probably have that exactly. And he'd be breaking down the etymology of the word, and we would get a whole Japanese lesson there. But for purposes of what we're doing today, we're going to move on to his expression of what happens in a puzzle. Can you share that little, I don't know if you call it an equation or an algorithm or what you want to call it. Symbolism. Yeah. He's a great or was a great puzzle maker.

Sadly, he died about a year ago. He is called the godfather of Sudoku. Sudoku was actually appeared in an American puzzle magazine, but no one really noticed it. He noticed it. He gave it a new name, Sudoku, and marketed the heck out of it. And it took off. And he came to speak in New York City. And I was writing the book.

So I went to go meet him. And he didn't speak great English. But he was able to get his point across. And one of the points I love is he wrote on the whiteboard. He said, here is the essence of puzzles. And he took out the magic marker and wrote three symbols, a question mark, an arrow pointing forward, and an exclamation point. And so the question mark refers to the bafflement you feel when you first encounter a puzzle. The arrow, that was where you're solving. That's the

struggle. That's the trying things out, experimenting. And then the exclamation point is the aha moment. Now, what I loved is Mr. Kaji had sort of the profound life lesson that you're not always going to get to the exclamation point, both in life and in a puzzle. So you have got to embrace the arrow. You've got to fall in love with the process of trying to solve these puzzles. And that is where the joy is. The joy is in the arrow. He was a mountain climber. He talked about the importance of enjoying the journey. That's sort of the traditional way of saying, you know, it's not about the destination, it's about the journey. I think this is a nice, fun way to represent that. My only edit on Mr. Kaji's brilliant

formulation would be that the arrow is rarely, if ever, straight ahead. Like, if I were to draw a more accurate arrow, the arrow would go in curly cues, it would go backwards, it would go two steps back, three steps forward. And that is most journeys to solving puzzles or problems. But it's something I think about all the time, trying to enjoy the arrow and not just the exclamation point. I love that. And I love your modification in that. Yeah, most puzzles are solving journeys, particularly if we want to present the things in our lives that we might traditionally call problems as puzzles. We want to use that framing are certainly not, you know, straight straight ahead you don't just keep

making progress i've referenced recovery a number of times but it is a puzzle in a sense and you know it is one that for me was not a straightforward solve it was like i made a little progress i had 10 days yeah you know then i'm back out and then i come back and now i got a little bit more this time and this works but this doesn't work and And, you know, and eventually, at least in my case, when it comes to just, you know, physical sobriety, the puzzle has been solved at least for a long time now, you know, but it was certainly not like I sat down and studied it for five minutes and solved it. No, I mean, on that point that often you have to go backwards to go forwards. For one of my adventures, I went to Vermont to the hardest corn maze in the world. And it's by this guy who's a, he's very friendly, but also very sadistic because this corn maze is so hard. And people take four hours, eight hours.

He said, when I said, I'm thinking of taking my teenage son, he said, well, you might not want to because, you know, teenage boys end up so angry and frustrated and in tears that it's not fun for them. So, he said people break up. You said that he told about like a family that the husband got so mad, he ran back to the car and drove off and left his family there. Exactly. He's like, that's it. I'm out of here. And the poor family was left. But one of the points he told me is he used to have a bell that you could ring at the end. And he found it was very troubling because someone would finally get to the end, they'd ring the bell, and everyone would head towards the bell, thinking, okay, that's the way

out. But of course, it's a maze. So, that is not the way out. You've got to go eight turns backwards before going towards the bell. So, it was actually confusing. So, he then added some other bells just to show people don't head towards the bell. And yeah, I think that's a lovely little metaphor for life that sometimes to solve a problem, it's not going to be straight ahead. You're going to have to go back. You're going to have to backtrack. And maybe then you will get to where you want to be. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast,

our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts?

His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Bryan Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really, No Really, sir. Bless you all.

Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really? No, really. No, really. Go to really, no, really.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition sign Jason bobblehead. It's called really no, really. And you can find it on the I heart radio app on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. One of the things that solving most puzzles entails, unless it's a really easy one that you solve right away, is a certain amount of persistence, right? Which is why I don't think I'm a great puzzler because I can be persistent, but I have to feel like I have a really good

reason to be. And I get partway through a puzzle. I'm like, I don't think I care enough about this to hang in here, right? So what I'm curious about, though, is, you know, for you is back to that arrow piece, right? What are some strategies that you found for being persistent without being frustrated, right? Without being like, I can't do this. I want to give up.

Because I do think that's a real thing that solving puzzles can do is, at least for me, it's shown like, if I stick with this a little bit longer, what seemed like I could never figure it out, I actually can with enough persistence. But a lot of times what happens is I think we get frustrated and we think we can't. And so then we abandon ship. So what are some strategies that you found that allow you to stick with something that's difficult like that and not get too frustrated or convinced you'll never do it? Yeah, I love that question. And I would say in response, a couple of things. First is what we were talking about earlier, that you have to embrace the arrow and the journey and

realize maybe you are going to solve it and that's okay. So, enjoy the experimentation and the mild. Try not to focus on it as a pain, but as an interesting challenge, interesting sensation. Second, often we underestimate ourselves. So, doing that spelling bee, for instance, I will get to a point, I'm like, there are no words left. There's no way you can arrange these seven letters to create more words. But I know that's not true because there are 50 points still to be had. And so, it's this convincing yourself, you know what? I've done this a hundred times before. I can do it. Don't give up.

So, and then the third part is I just think that working on puzzles is, as you say, a great way to build up this tenacity, this idea of endurance. And one of my favorite examples that I talk about in the book is one of the most famous unsolved puzzles in the world. It is located at the CIA headquarters. Not many people get to go. I was lucky enough. I got permission to go to the CIA headquarters to see it.

Most people just see a picture of it. And it is a secret code by the sculptor. 30 years ago, he teamed up with a cryptographer and they put a secret code in the sculpture. The sculpture is basically a wall of metal with a bunch of symbols on it, letters and characters. And those letters spell out a secret message. Now, people have figured out a lot of the code. And one part of it is a quote from the guy who discovered King Tut's tomb. But there is a section that remains after 30 years uncracked. And what I love is that I am on this

mailing list of thousands of people who every day are still trying to crack this code. Every day, they're emailing ideas. Maybe it's Moby Dick is the key. Maybe it's American Windtalker language. And it's every day they have not given up. They sent me all these ideas when they found out I was going. I had all of these secret missions to do and look for. But when I'm helping my kid with a math homework or whatever, and I want to give up after a minute and a half. I try to remember, remind myself, you know, these folks have been going for 30 years, and they are undeterred. And I love that. It's a little crazy, perhaps a little obsessive, but I also admire it greatly. Yeah, that does show a remarkable degree of tenacity.

Yeah, that does show a remarkable degree of tenacity. But like you said, there's also the danger. It's a balance because, you know, it is important if you are in some sort of activity that really is never going to yield any results that are useful to you or society. There is a skill of knowing when to quit, when to give up. It's a really hard balance, and I don't have the exact quit, when to give up. It's a really hard balance and I don't have the exact equation of when to give up. I think in general, we probably give up way too easily on most things, but sometimes giving up, that is important. Yeah, I was going to say, I think you're right. I think most things we give up too easily and then there's usually a thing or two that we cling on to way beyond its expiration date. Exactly.

Another puzzle lesson that I really like comes from hide-and-seek puzzles. Tell me a little bit about what a hide-and-seek puzzle is first. Sure. Well, the most famous one is Where's Waldo? So you've got a big scene of people at the beach playing volleyball, and hidden somewhere is that red and white striped rascal, Waldo. So you've got a big scene of people at the beach playing volleyball and hidden somewhere is that red and white striped rascal, Waldo. These have a long, long history. They were long before Waldo. There was a famous Flemish painter in the 16th century, I believe, maybe even 15, who would hide all sorts of secrets in his paintings. And I was kind of a snob. I was

kind of a snob. I thought, oh, this is not a sophisticated form of puzzles. But I am a convert. I changed my mind 100%. And I think there are two reasons that I love these kinds of puzzles now. One is that it's all about noticing. It's all about looking at something closely. And that is a skill that I have tried to use in my life. And I think it makes my life better. Because say I'm standing in line at the coffee shop, you know, my first temptation is to look at my phone and scroll through. But what if I just stand there and try to notice my surroundings? And it can be really a lovely experience. Look at that purple lamp. I never noticed that shade of purple. So interesting. And walking down the street,

trying to look at the world like it's a big spread of Where's Waldo and noticing things, the world like it's a big spread of where's Waldo and noticing things because noticing is what leads to gratitude and savoring and all those other good things. And it's the same as what all those other good things we talked about. Unless you make a discipline out of it, unless you try to remember to notice, you will go through life noticing very little. Yeah. I mean, I think that is a fundamental meta skill is that ability to sort of continue to look closely. I think it's what great artists do. It's what poets do. I think it is how we turn sort of the ordinary into the extraordinary is just by attention, you know, by looking more and more closely. I mean, so many of the meditative traditions, that's what they're pointing at. You know, my primary study and training has been in

Zen. And that is, I mean, that is a core Zen principle. It's like, just look closer, man. Like, just keep looking. You know, so I think the hide and seek puzzles really bring that out. Now, there's a funny example of a hide-and-seek puzzle that happened with the Baltimore Sun. Can you share what happened? It's one of my favorite puzzles ever. The Baltimore Sun had a spot-the-difference puzzle. So you probably know what those are. They put two images, look very similar, but they're like little differences.

Maybe the socks are red instead of green. So they had these two images of this boy brushing his teeth. And the next day, they had to print a correction that said, we apologize to our readers. The spot the difference puzzle actually was of two identical images. We apologize. And part of me was just filled with sympathy for the hundreds of people who spent thousands of hours looking for non-existent differences. But part of me just wanted to laugh because, you know, in my darker moments, I think, well, maybe that's a good metaphor for life is like, we're looking for meaning and there is none. I don't really believe that. But I do think that that would be

an example of when it's okay to give up. You know, spend like 10 minutes and you're like, you know what, I'm not getting anything more out of this. I am going to give up. I have a list of difficult puzzles and that might be the most difficult ever. Well, AJ, we are at the end of our time. I could do this all day and we are going to do it a little bit longer in the post-show conversation. And we're going to talk about the difference between mazes and labyrinths. And we're also going to talk about framing, how the way we frame things has a lot to do with our experience of life. has a lot to do with our experience of life. Listeners, if you'd like access to the post-show conversation, as well as ad-free episodes and all kinds of other good things, as well as the joy of supporting something you love,

go to oneufeed.net slash join. AJ, thanks so much for coming on. I'm so happy to have had you on again and really enjoyed it. I loved it, and I love your show, and thank you for doing what you do and making my life better with your wisdom. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a monthly donation to support the One You Feed podcast. When you join our membership community with this monthly pledge, you get lots of exclusive members-only benefits.

It's our way of saying thank you for your support. Now, we are so grateful for the members of our community. We wouldn't be able to do what we do without their support, and we don't take a single dollar for granted. To learn more, make a donation at any level, and become a member of the One You Feed community, go to oneyoufeed.net slash join. The One You Feed podcast would like to sincerely thank our sponsors for supporting the show. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together together our mission on the Really No Really podcast is to get the true answers

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