The One You Feed - Why Chasing Goodness Keeps Us Stuck with Elise Loehnen

Episode Date: August 29, 2025

In this episode, Elise Loehnen explains why chasing goodness keeps us stuck and how to choose wholeness instead. For so many of us, the drive to be “good” shapes how we show up – as friends, partners, coworkers, even in how we speak to ourselves on hard days. But what does it cost us to live that way? Elise invites us to see that the real challenge isn’t to feed only the good wolf, but to become a whole wolf; one who integrates all parts of ourselves, even the ones we’d rather hide. She explores the hidden price of goodness, the surprising usefulness of envy, the roles we unconsciously inherit, and the stories that keep us small. This conversation will help you rethink what wholeness means and how embracing it can lead to a more authentic, empowered life.Discover the six hidden saboteurs that quietly derail your best intentions—like autopilot behavior, self-doubt, and emotional escape. Download our free guide to uncover what’s getting in your way and learn simple strategies to take back control. Get it now at oneyoufeed.net/ebook.Key Takeaways:Exploration of inner conflict and personal growth.Discussion of the concept of wholeness versus goodness.Examination of the parable of the two wolves and its implications for self-identity.Reframing the seven deadly sins as energies rather than moral failings.Identification of common obstacles to personal growth, such as self-doubt and emotional escapism.Introduction of practical tools for recognizing and transforming personal narratives.Importance of setting boundaries and learning to say no.The role of envy as a complex emotion and its potential for self-discovery.Discussion of the influence of cultural narratives on personal desires and behaviors.Emphasis on flexibility in self-understanding and the ongoing journey of personal integration.If you enjoyed this conversation with Elise Loehnen, check out these other episodesMimetic Desires in Everyday Life with Luke BurgisHow to Embrace the Wisdom of the Women Mystics with Mirabai StarrFor full show notes, click here!Connect with the show:Follow us on YouTube: @TheOneYouFeedPodSubscribe on Apple Podcasts or SpotifyFollow us on InstagramSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

When envy is made conscious and when we start to use it as a GPS, it's a very powerful connector to the soul. Welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do.

We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. How much of your life have you spent trying to be good? For me, that question has shaped so many choices over the years.

It shapes how I show up as a podcast host, as a friend, how I show up in my relationships, even how I speak to myself on hard days. But after my conversation with Elise Lunan, whose new book is called Choosing Wholeness Over Goodness, I started to question something at the heart of every episode of this show. We talk about feeding the good wolf. But maybe the real challenge is to become a whole wolf, not just a good wolf. Today, Elise made me rethink what goodness can actually cost us, how much of ourselves we leave behind when we chase it.

We dig into the moments where envy can be useful, the roles we inherit, and the stories that keep us stuck. I'm Eric Zimmer, and this is the one you feed. Hi, Elise, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. We are going to be discussing your book, which is called Choosing Wholeness Over Goodness, a process for reclaiming your full self, but we may also talk about your substack, your podcast, you have all sorts of great things out there in the world.

But before we get into any of it, we'll start in the way that we always do with the parable. And in the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild, and they say in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. one is a good wolf which represents things like kindness and bravery and love and the other's a bad wolf which represents things like greed and hatred and fear and the grandchild stops and they think about it for a second they look up with their grandparent and they say well which one wins and the grandparent says the one you feed so i'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do oh eric that is so incredibly rich because that's, I think, a parable that perfectly encapsulates, particularly in the last five years, all of the work that I do, which is how do we recognize that both wolves are present? You cannot deny the presence of the wolf that you do not like or does not affirm your identity or ego, right? Which I think for most of us is particularly as a woman.

my first book was all about the way that women are conditioned for goodness, quote, unquote, goodness. And so we want to disavow that bad wolf, right, and pretend that it doesn't exist. And it goes into our shadow and it is nipping at our heels. And so all of my work is about both of these wolves are present and at the table. And they're both essential pieces of our wholeness and what it is to be human. and you cannot deny any part of yourself. Our job is to integrate, to tame that wolf, right? Not to eradicate it or destroy it.

And I grew up in Montana, so I know all about what happens when you destroy wolves and what that does to the ecosystem. So the ecosystem collapse, says. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's one of the things I love about the parable. I mean, the first is just the obvious choice. You have choice, choice matters, right? But the second one is that we all have this inside of us.

I like that normalizing aspect of it. Like, of course you do. Of course you have parts of you that are, you know, quote unquote greedy or quote unquote lazy. And you really take this on in your last book and in this book that these things we call bad are energies that we can learn to use in a skillful way. And, I mean, right in your title of your book, right? You're kind of right away saying, like, hey, let's move away from just goodness, the good wolf, and towards wholeness, which is both wolves. Yes. Tell me about this idea of wholeness over goodness.

Yeah. So I, when I wrote my first book, on our best behavior, it's the superstructure of the book is the seven deadly sins. And I write about them as this. punch card of goodness. It's a secular book. I was not raised in a religious household. And yet I realized, and I do sort of this excavation of history in the book and explain how these sins came to, in some ways, represent sort of this, the rejected parts of the ego of a good woman. But they really map to how we are expected to behave and perform our goodness in the world. and to remind people of the sins, they are sloth, pride, envy, lust, greed, gluttony, and anger. And when I thought about the way that I was controlling myself and performing this goodness, I'm such a good mother and I'm so caring and selfless and I don't have any ones because I

subjectate everything I want to other people's needs and I keep my body so disciplined and small and constrained. And I don't talk about money because money is base and unspiritual. And I'm desirable but never desiring, Eric. I know how to be sexy and visibly appealing, but I'm not sexual, right? And I'm never upset about anything. That's really like what it is to perform this idea of goodness. And after I wrote this book, I see a young, youngian therapist. Many of my good friends are Jungian therapists. I love the work of Carl Jung. And one of my friends said to me, I don't know if you were conscious of this, which is hilarious, but you have written a book about the cultural shadow of women and everything that women repress and suppress

and then project onto other women because we refuse to own these qualities in ourselves. We refused to be gluttonous or greedy or lustful or angry, right, or lazy. And so that was a big aha for me, and it was the impetus to do this follow-on, choosing wholeness over goodness, because the book is really about balance and how these are our internal GPS points. This is, these appetites, desires, instincts, show us what we want. they tell us what's important to us. They outline our boundaries with other people. And when we disavow them and pretend like they hold no sway because we're so good over here, we're good wolfing, they run our lives and in unconscious ways. And so I am much more interested as I've come to relax my own grip on what it is to be a good woman. I am much more interested in a

wholeness and getting close to my fear and getting close to what I want and getting close to my anger rather than pretending like it doesn't exist in me at all. Yeah, I think that there's certainly cultural things for women 100%. And I think many men also have these. I mean, these were these were deadly sins for everybody, you know. And one of the things that I have sort of myself wrestled with are similar things about I'm very comfortable being good and, you know, smart and dependable and I mean, all these things. And I find it difficult to tweeze out. It takes a lot of inner work for me to tweeze out something like, let's take something like

kindness. Yeah. I think it's a core value of mine. And I think it's a personality. It's a part of how I'm wired up. So there's the good. And when am I performing? When am I doing that? Because to not do that would cause me to be seen in some way that I'm not comfortable with. And that gets really tricky when these things are so close together, at least for me. I have found those always to be, I find that an ongoing excavation. Can we stay with this for a minute? Because I think it's so important. I haven't really gotten the chance to talk to many men about my work. I think that instinctually,

they think that I'm going to be blammy or sort of shaming of men, which isn't at all what the work is about. And I write about sort of how women are conditioned for goodness, men are conditioned for power, and that the reputational harm that we levy at women, that she's a bad mother, bad friend, toxic coworker, that is so destructive. destructive, right? To say, if someone says about me publicly, Elise is like a horribly mean person, that's devastating potentially to me and my livelihood even, or that's how I would perceive that as an existential threat. I do perceive it as an existential threat. So it's so interesting that that to you also feels rigidly defended. That's one of my things is like,

I can't have anyone say that I'm unkind, even though I'm sure I know, Eric, that there are people who don't like me. It's taken me a long time to even admit that because I was so scared of that truth, right? Isn't that fun? It's hilarious. And when someone confronted me on that and said, you don't really think that like everyone holds you in the way that you want to be held, which is that you are this super kind loving person. Like, are you delusional? Um, And that was so threatening. So I'm so curious about this for you. Like what, when you get at the fear underneath this idea of like, I'm a kind, I'm a hardwired kind person.

And I have no doubt that you are. And I'm sure that there are moments where you're not kind, right? Because you're a human. Yeah. But what does that feel like for you? I would say it feels sort of like you said, mildly, existentially frightening. Because I think we get cultured in lots, like we can talk about culture. as a whole, but then we get cultured in specific ways, specific places. So, for example, at 24,

I was a homeless heroin addict, and I got cultured in AA after that for a number of years. And AA is, you know, saved my life twice, but they start talking about character defects, right? They start talking about selfishness being the root of your problem, which I actually kind of agree with, and right and then I move from there into spiritual circles and I start reading Buddhism and I start and I now am getting cultured in another way that your emotions you should have them under control and so yeah I think to me those things feel sort of existentially frightening even though I totally recognize that as a man it's different than it is for a woman but I think there's these smaller cultures that can have a really strong influence, even when the bigger

culture might look a certain different way. Yeah. And I think, yeah, saying like this is men and this is women is obviously highly reductionist. And I really don't want to be an essentialist. And in the book, too, I write about, and this is, I think, a better fit, honestly, for all of us and a really important distinction that gets like, I don't think it's woo-woo. Some people think I think it's woo-woo, but like I'm really talking more in some ways about the archetypal energies of femininity and masculinity, divorce from gender, right? Yes. And that ultimately, Eric and Elise are these whole balanced humans who are equally, maybe not at every moment of the day, in their feminine and in their masculine, they're in their masculine being sort of structure or order. truth and that external drive in the world and the feminine being creativity,

nurturance, love, care, and that internal holding, and that we have those capacities equally. Yep. And that it's important for us to express them both. And I think men, the way that we're conditioned, women are conflated with femininity, right? And that they're supposed to hold that energy only and entirely. and that men conversely are conflated with masculinity

and that they are supposed to hold that entirely in that that masculinity is power and that femininity is goodness and in reality obviously we need men more men like you who are fully also in their feminine and I'm a very mask I'm very comfortable in my masculine maybe more comfortable but yeah so I think that that's where you start getting into these really juicy conversation

where we're both, we're all grappling with these ideas of goodness and power. Power is also getting a really bad rap for good reason, but how do we actually hold it in a healthy way? Right, because power can be power over other people, but power can also be an internal type of power. It can be a self-efficacy. It can be a belief in my ability to derive outcomes in my world. It's not only a power over other people kind of thing, even though that's how we tend to think of it, but it's an, but it is an, it is an energy. And as you were saying that about masculine and feminine, I was also thinking about one level before earlier condition for me, which was that at like 15, I got really into punk rock music. Of course you did. And a lot of that music seems aggressive, but there is a definite, at least in the bands that I love, like, You don't want to be like those guys.

You don't want to be like those typical idiot. And so all of a sudden you start defining yourself as an opposite of something, which is I don't think usually ever a good way, a good way to go about it, right? Not at least in the long term. I mean, I think there's pendulum swings often, but, but yeah. So I think it's a, I think it's an interesting question. And I do think learning to allow both of those energies their place. and finding out what your balance sort of naturally is. Yeah.

Do you know the Enneagram? Are you an Enneagram type 9? Yes, I sure. Well, look, I guess this is. You are giving yourself away. This will play me even. I'm married to an enneagram type 9 who has a lot of things in common with you. Yeah.

This will further make me clearly a 9 is that I feel like any test I take, I'm a little of everything. Yes, that's very nine. Which is nine, right? And so, yes, 100%. You've got me. I got you. What are you?

Yeah, no. I'm a six. Okay. Sixes and nines. I think we're the most common. Is that true? Yeah. I think so.

That I did not know. I think three, sixes and nines are quite common. And nines are very hard to type because, as you just said, they see themselves in everyone. And all you want is that wholeness and that harmony. And sixes, because we're so context-driven, and we see everything through sort of that lens of fear, we are like, well, I could be like this in this situation and not in this situation. So we're both very hard to type and mutable in that way. Yeah. But, yeah, sweet.

I mean, I really love a nine, I have to say. Well, here I am. I'm always like, let's get you in your body. No need to not. No need to dissociate, you know? Yep, yep. That has been a big part of the process for me, for sure, for sure. All right.

So let's move on a little bit. And I want to talk about a concept that I've heard you write about, I guess I haven't heard, I've read you right about on Substack and is in the book. And it's this idea of above the line below the line. What does that mean? This is such a good and helpful tool that, so Courtney Smith, who's a friend of mine, who's actually an amazing Enneagram coach, worked on this book with me. And this concept comes from Conscious Leadership Group.

And it's this idea that we live our lives mostly below the line. And we're driven below the line because fear is the baseline reality for most of us. Even if we, I think speaking of Enneagram, we all have our mechanisms and strategies for trying to get away from fear. But fear runs our lives in many ways that are somewhat invisible. And when fear is present in our system, we go below the line. So when you are below the line, you see yourself as being at the effect of the world. The world is happening to you, which is inherently disempowering. And when you are below the line, you are typically in what's called the drama triangle where

there are heroes and villains and victims. And you are very busy when you're below the line figuring out who is in those roles, right? Creating, driving towards certainty, who is to blame, what needs to be fixed, who's suffering, how do I get, how do I resolve this situation below the line? And most of us spend most of our time below the line. and it's just a function of being human. Now, when you are able to recognize that you're up below the line, sometimes you can get above the line.

And when you are above the line, you are in a creator space. You see the world is happening for you, by you, through you. You see that you are participating in your reality. And that not that you're, again, you don't want to shift below the line and saying, like I'm to blame, but it's more about like you recognize that you are responsible for your experience and that you have power to affect your life. And you're not looking again in that drama triangle way to say like, this is the problem. You're the problem. You're being hurt. You're the oppressor. You're the oppressed. It's a different frame. And it's much more creative,

actually and empowering to say, oh, I can actually affect the world. I can change the world. I can engage with the world. There are a lot of Holocaust films that focus on the horror, and rightfully so, But what struck me about Bao, artist at war, is that inside all that darkness, you see something else. Love, humor, creativity, even moments of laughter. It's people insisting on their humanity when everything around them is trying to take it away. Joseph Bow was an artist and a dreamer.

He risked everything to help others survive and to keep his love for Rebecca alive. In the middle of the concentration camps, they secretly married. a wedding and a concentration camp. It wasn't only an act of love, it was an act of defiance. And for me, this film isn't about what was lost, it's about what was found, the resilience of the human heart. And if you know me, you won't be surprised to know that by the end I was in tears. Bow, artist at war, directed by Sean McNamara, opened September 26.

You can watch the trailer and find showtimes at bowmovie.com. That's spelled B-A-U-Movie.com. I love that you used three different framings there. You said you could say the world is happening for you. And then what were the next two that you said, through you and... Through you and by you. By you. Yeah.

Because that phrase for me, I just can't get there. Like, and I find this a lot. Like I'm like, I kind of have to move neutral-ish, right? Yeah. Nine, right? Of course. you know for me i have a bunch of reasons why why that challenges me but i can get to sort of through me and to a certain degree by me meaning i am absolutely integrated into this whole thing

and i am just a part of everything that's happening and sometimes there are things that are happening that are good and sometimes there are things that are happening that are bad and that's being a human. Yeah. I'm with you on the for you because I think when we get to a really evolved place with our experiences where we've done a lot of work and you've obviously had some really hard experiences, it's, I think, a lot to ask of people immediately to be like, this is happening for me. I really recognize that like I'm supposed to be sleeping on the street corner right now. Maybe now, you know, you can say that that happened. for you, but I think it's too much to ask on the regular, you know, that we're like, yes,

this terrible tragedy really happened for me. Yeah, my issue is not so much that, because I can see that, like, I mean, many very difficult things in my life were remarkably important in what happened. And I would say on some level, I'm grateful that I'm a heroin addict. I mean, I would go that far. Like, I'm grateful that that's the way things kind of went for me. I don't think everybody has to get to that point. It's more that there is, that the world is being arranged in such a way for me versus, right?

It centers me in a way that I'm not entirely comfortable with. Well, there you go. I'm playing to type. I get it. I get it. You are. You are. I know it's like you're the biggest piece of shit that the whole world revolves around, right?

Like, it's that paradox that I think so many of us hold. Yeah. Reminds me of that story of, like, this Hasidic rabbi who keeps two notes in his pocket. And one is, like, essentially, like, you're a speck of dust. And the other says, like, this world was created for you. And that he sort of throughout the day is referring to one note or the other to just write himself. And that's like, that's so life to be. Yes.

both to quote Father Richard Roar, praying for your daily humiliation and right-sizing, and to feel enough sort of natural hubris or healthy narcissism that you are like, my life counts and matters and I can change things, maybe not for everyone, but I can have a positive impact on the world. And so finding that balance where you, you know, speaking of power and what we were talking about earlier in the way I think we're watching what feels like kabuki theater at this moment and time of people who are just drunk and inflate so inflated and distorted and just watching it's like one of those hoses that's completely out of control right yeah um it's like wrap that up Like, you know, and it's just, it obviously is like devastating, uh, implications, but so it's

that balance of like, I'm important. I'm special and we're all special. Yeah. Right. There's a, there's an Indian mystic, uh, Nisgadarda. I never can say. I'm terrible with you. I can't pronounce anything. I can read anything. Oh, good. I'm glad we chose this, the, the, the, the, career where we have to talk. It's constantly exposed on this. I'm like, it has three. It has three syllables. I don't think I know how to say it. It's really helpful to people that we can't say it. Or I know what it means. I've never heard it aloud. Like I think readers find that a lot, you know. Yes. Yes. Anyway, this guy said something along the lines of, you know, wisdom tells me I'm nothing. Love tells me I'm everything in between the two my life flows.

I love that. Yeah, which is sort of the same thing as the rabbi with the two notes. It's both those things you know i'm incredibly special and i'm not really that unique yeah let's move into the book for a moment and as you mentioned the book is laid out by these things that are traditionally considered the seven deadly sins but that you would frame as uh perhaps energies within us that how would you say powers um the enneagram holds them as energies i think energies is the right i would say energies. Yeah. Before we dive back into the conversation, let me ask you something. What's one thing that has been holding you back lately? You know that it's there. You've tried to push past it, but somehow it keeps getting in the way. You're not alone in this, and I've identified six

major saboteurs of self-control, things like autopilot behavior, self-doubt, emotional escapism, that quietly derail our best intentions. But here's the good news. You can outsmart them. And I've put together a free guide to help you spot these hidden obstacles and give you simple, actionable strategies that you can use to regain control. Download the free guide now at one you feed.net slash eBook and take the first step towards getting back on track. Before we get into those, though, there is in the book a sort of core process that you apply to all seven of these. we're not going to get through seven processes and seven sins. That's 49 things we would need to get to, and we're not going to get there. I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about these

key tools, though. Yeah. So there's this, the way that we set it up is that there's this core process that you can apply to any story. And it doesn't have to be a story related to one of the sins. It could be any story in your life, but that it's these seven tools that make up this core process and then each sin has its own we're calling them expansion moves or shift moves tools that you can use that are specific to the body or money and feelings of scarcity and enoughness or anger scripts for saying no just like there's a ton everything I've learned from being a podcast host and writer is in this book I don't know how to calm myself down Eric and restrain myself so I know same problem in my book I mean I was like I

I know that, like, I should be, like, I should really, this probably could be narrowed down, but I'm like, I can't, I mean, I did, you know, I narrowed it and, yeah, yeah, yep. Yeah, no, my editor, when she asked for this, I think she was expecting a journal with some prompts and blank pages. And I was like, here's a 345 page book. But it's actually, it is, you can work it so that it's not so overwhelming. It has both. Yeah, it has both. It has both. And so the core process really hinges on this idea that when we are constructing our personalities and figuring out who we are in the world and how to show up for approval

and love and all of these external markers of success, we start telling ourselves stories about who we are and how we need to behave. So the central premise of the process is built around identifying a story and making it conscious and stories as distinct from facts because many of us think that facts and stories are the same thing. So a fact is something that can be captured on a video camera. Eric and Elise are having a conversation on a podcast. The story is everything else. So I'm the best guess you've ever had. I'm the best guess you've ever had. Yeah. Yeah. I'm failing. Eric's an idiot again. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We have a million stories, right?

Like, in your own life, an easy example is a fact might be that my husband walks into the house and doesn't acknowledge me. And then the stories that I start telling myself, he's mad at me, I've done something wrong, he had a really bad day, he lost his job. We're getting divorced. You know, it's just crazy, right? What the mind does to make meaning of a simple fact. And that is such a foundational. thing, I think. Yes.

Learning to disentangle a fact from a meaning or a story from a truth, you know, and it's amazing to be able to do it. Yes. And to see what you are capable of, we're incredible creators. And this is how we make meaning. Yeah. These stories structure our whole lives. Culture is a story.

Gender is a story in many ways. All of it is story. Country is a story. Being a parent is a story. And I tell myself all sorts of stories about how much my kids need me and a la la la, la, story. Unfortunately, story. I don't know that that's true. So this is the core thing is using fact versus story to start, as a practice, to start generating the stories that you have.

So if we're talking about sloth, for example, which is this idea that women are sort of, I think many of us, so we can just stop talking about it as women. there's always doing that needs to be done, to take rest as lazy. I have, this is a big one for me. Yep, me too. Yeah. So this, one of my stories, by going through the facts, by doing this process of fact versus story, I came to understand that one of my stories is I'm the only one who can do it right, Eric, so I should do it all.

And then when you take that story, so that's a story that I work, and you take it through this seven-step process. The goal is that you start to make it so visible to yourself, and you start to, through these tools, you recognize the underlying fear that drives that story, how far that story has gotten you and why you've ascribed to it so intensively. I can attribute a lot of my success in life to that story. It's true. It's been helpful to me. It's also been totally deleterious. And I have structured all of my relationships to reinforce this story. to myself. So one of my favorite parts of this process is a tool called teach the class where you take your story. So another story for me is if I accept money from someone, then they own me. It's another story of mine. I have a lot of stories about my body. If I, you know, I've gained 15 pounds in the last five years. That's a fact. One of my stories is if I don't get myself under control, you know, I'll be giant.

This is probably a story that's very familiar. Like, I'm totally out of control. I'll never be, I'm done. So then you take those stories, and this is, I think, tool five or six in the process. You've done a lot of work to understand the fear that's driving that story. You teach it. You teach a class on it to a woman's college, a bunch of 20-something women, to make sure that they also have that story.

We want people to do these practices because, one, it makes it really visible to yourself what you're up to. And then it also, you recognize the way that you're transmitting these stories to the people you love and to younger generations and what you're modeling by being someone who's the only one you can do it right. So you should do it all. And when I teach that class to a bunch of 22-year-olds, I'm like, you pick a, you do everything really fast so no one else can do it first. you say and then no one knows how to do it because they've never done it before so they don't know any of the processes or the protocols or the contact so then they have to ask you and just reinforcing that you're the only one who can do it right right when you believe the story you get to be the only one in control of everything and that also means that you get to do everything

so you get to perpetuate it when you believe this story you don't delegate at work because man someone could take your job or be better at it than you so you make sure they don't even have a chance to shine, right? Like, as you start scripting it and we provide all these exercises, when you're scripting this curriculum, you're like, holy bananas, look at what I'm up to and what I have created in my life that I am then enslaved to and committed to upholding, because if I don't do that, I have to face my fear, which is for me and that story in particular, is that no one would love me. People love me because I'm so useful and I do everything for them and I'm always

of service and I make everything convenient. And absent that, like, why would my husband be married to me? Why would anyone like me? Because my whole ego and personality has been structured around being a person who is useful. And that is hard medicine. But now that I know that, I can start putting that story down and relaxing it and letting my husband answer some school emails and we're changing the dynamic of our relationship rather than blaming him for my own story. Right, right. So I want to stay in here, but a question comes up with what you just said because you just said, you know, my worth comes from being useful, right?

Yes. And for me, I actually think being used. useful is an actual value. Yes. I have. Right. And so, so this is the, this is that tweezing apart process we talked about. How much of this usefulness I'm doing is because I, because it's a value of mine and how much am I doing it because I am hiding? Is that, I mean, how do you think about that question? Well, I think that the story that I put down and took up in its place, is I am more powerful and in greater service to the world when I can accept support. And the place that I got to was that I am fearful of accepting support because I don't think I'm deserving.

I'm worried that absent that utility, like I would cease to have a purpose or a role in people's lives. So it's like finding that line between my greatest joy is to serve. and our work, right? Your show, my show. Like, I love giving that as my service to the world. And it's like, it feels like my deepest Dharma, right? It feels so good. I love the taking care of the details of people's.

It's soothing to me to, like, do that. And I can do that without feeling so committed to the rigidity of this story. And I learned this. some ways from Courtney, my co-author, because when we first taught this retreat, taught a retreat that became this book. And she showed up. I was like, we'll just go and like be with these women. It will be amazing. And she showed up and had created this core process. And I was like, I have never experienced professional support in this way. I have always been the person doing this for other people. And it was so moving, Eric, for me and so fun. And I just got to be myself and be in the

room and make it fun for people. And she had created all this structure and support. And I was like, wow, this can actually be far more powerful than me being like, I'm just going to do everything myself. You know? Yep. Absolutely. That sounds wonderful. Did that answer that question, though? Because I think it's really important. It's like when, when that gift becomes like an enslavement, right? Right. Right. And I think these seven key tools, the core process, is sort of how you start to delineate that. Yeah. And choose it consciously. And choose it, you know, choose it consciously. And, you know, there's another thing that, and I think this maybe comes with with more time or more more awareness, but I also sometimes can tune into, do I feel like I'm feeling compelled?

There's something a little jagged about it, and there's something a little, it just feels pushed, versus is this something that feels right? And it's actually very subtle, but I feel like I've gotten better, at least, at tuning into that. And I bet it's through bringing your body online and into some sort of alignment and saying, like, is this, we call it in the book, is this a full body yes? Is this a full body? No. How does this feel when I run it through my body? Does my energy go up or does my energy go down? Because similar to you, I found myself compulsively responding. Yes, yes, even though I was like, I don't want to do that. And As it would approach, I'd be like, I don't want to do this. And I'm angry that this person asked me to do this, even though the responsibility is on me to say, thank you for the opportunity, no thank you. Yeah.

Right? Yeah. I find one of the hardest things about that. I remember I had a coaching client at one point. And she was constantly saying yes to things. And we set a rule, which was you cannot say yes to anything. all you can say is that's a great opportunity I will get back to you and I think that was really important for her because I think something happens I have this happen somebody asked me to do

something and on if I just take it on its own I'm like that sounds awesome but I have to take it in the context of everything else in my life right it's not a thing that exists out there on its own. It has to exist in my actual life. And that takes me a little bit longer to be like, all right, hang on a second. That does sound amazing. But do you really want to fly back from London and immediately get on a, you know, get on another flight to loss. I mean, and then I start going, oh, that's actually like, okay, this all, in principle, this sounds like something I want to do. But in reality, you know, but that energy of like, oh, that sounds great. you know, will sink me every time if I'm not careful.

Yes. So there are two tools in the book about this. One is, yes, like the pause. Just let me get back to you. That's been essential for me to a 24-hour. I need to sit with this because I get excited. Everything sounds fun. I want to help people.

I want to show up, et cetera. And then I also wrote a full page of scripts for saying no because I would find myself side skirt. you know, side-skirting, being angry at the person for asking, ignoring, not responding, ghosting. And with these scripts, there's an accountability measure of like you have to practice. You have to sit practicing no. In fact, we have a whole tool about this called the no diet where you just have to say no

ritually and habitually for a week as a practice because it's so hard for us. But yeah, these scripts for essentially acknowledging that, thank you for thinking of me. This is so exciting. I am overcommitted. Please ask me again. I would love to be considered. I do 10 variations just because it's so common. And I found myself at a loss for what to do.

And then I would get into these lengthy explanations. And I mean, it was a mess. It was a mess, Eric. Yep. But it actually, learning to do it and do it that way is actually really a kindness. Yes. I mean, it's good for you. I get. I mean, it's good for us. But it's a kindness. Like, I would much rather somebody that I know that I have a little bit of a relationship with to say, sorry, can't do that, then disappear, right? Or, you know, not know how to say no and avoid. And now everything's weird, you know? Just a simple, like, yeah, I'd love to, but I can't. Like, great.

You know, 98% of the world, well, I'm not going to categorize that. A lot of people will just be like, okay, thanks for letting me know. No. Clarity is kindness. And I think what I- That's a great line. Clarity is kindness. Lovely.

It is. And I think if you put yourself on the other end, your experience is exactly that. You're like, thanks for letting me know. I can move on and ask someone else. Yeah. I've also found now that I've been actually doing. this practice, that people do come back to me. Because I would also get that hit of FOMO, like, oh, what if that had been amazing? Maybe I needed that financially. And I found that actually people

do return or something comes in that's a better fit. It's weird how the universe conspires. The other thing is if you don't respond, right, the way that is often taken is they don't like me, they don't want to do anything with me, they're not interested in me, whatever that is, that's usually the least helpful way if you're on the asking end to interpret it. Like I just sort of assume, like if I don't hear from somebody that I thought would be the sort of person that would normally reply to me, I'm not going to badger them over this thing. But I'm also not going to be like, oh, I guess that relationship, I just be like, they're probably busy. And then I'll think about them a few weeks or a month or two later.

And I'll be like, hey, thinking of you again. You know, just as if, you know, as if nothing was weird. Right. Right. Totally. No, I think it's actually, I think part of what happens, at least I can speak from my own experience, is that we're so terrified, too, of hearing no, that we struggle to say it or to lay down a boundary of any kind and then when you actually start practicing saying no and you in turn build your tolerance for hearing no you're like oh this is fine actually this is fine this is not

world ending this is not the rejection of all rejections but i think for whatever reason we have i don't know if it's a new thing probably not but but maybe in the world of hyperconnectivity it is more present than it used to be, right? There are more requests. But I do think that building that tolerance for, it's really a setting a boundary. And obviously, as we know from the culture, boundaries are hard for people. There's a lot of interest in setting boundaries, Eric. Yes, they are exceptionally hard.

They sure are. Just a couple more things on this core process. The tool number five is, you know, what are these stories? get you owning the payoffs and costs of our unconscious stories and you alluded to that a little bit when you were talking through some of your stories but I think that's a really useful thing to think about too is like what what am I getting out of this and I think that's a like I I write a lot about change and how we change and recognizing that ambivalence is really important recognizing like okay I actually do kind of want to do that

even though I don't want to do it. Yeah. And I am getting something out of it. It's sort of like with addiction. It's not very useful to just throw the whole thing off as like a bad trait. Yeah. Right? It's because there was a reason you would destroy your life over something like that.

You were getting something from it. Now, it was no longer worth the trade by a long shot. But to pretend that you don't need what. whatever that thing was. And then once you do that, you can be more skillful in how you choose to meet that need. Yeah, yeah. And I think addiction is a really ripe example of this.

I think that it's a bit like Marie Kondo. There are these, like, it's like thanking your socks. You know, sometimes we just outgrow these stories too, or we wear them. out or they're no longer useful. But often these stories and the ways that we structure our personality are life-saving and are essential for navigating the world and creating structure and safety. As mentioned, that story, I'm the only one who can do it right, so I should do it all, has gotten me really far. Now its costs are too heavy. It's too hard for me to keep maintaining

and feeding the story. It's time for me to put it down. But it was only through this point. process that I really realize like, oh, I'm committed to this. Can I commit to not having this story? Or can I say, I'm going to make this conscious and commit to it even more? I think, and I'm sure this has been your experience, and you can't really tell someone when it's time to put a story down too, but often we find, and this has happened at retreats where people will come and it's a bit like the story Olympics, you know, where they're like, this is my story. And you're like that is a hard story. Stories of betrayal and loss and just really difficult things. Even stories, you know, stories of addiction, right? And what can happen, and again, there's no

point, someone has to come to this realization on their own. You can't force it. But some people are not ready to say, you know what, like this story is, these shoes are too small for me. And I no longer want to be the person who is defined by their husband betraying them and walking out on their family, or I no longer want to be defined as the person who had cancer or who had an addiction, an active addiction. So there comes a point, I think, when people are like, oh, wait, this is heavy baggage. And I can continue to blame everything on this story or use this as a crutch. or use it as a reason and it might be a valid reason. Again, I'm not suggesting that it's not. Or I can say, all right, I got to be flexible here. I got to like choose something else. Yeah, I think about this a lot when it comes

to things like diagnoses, mental health diagnoses, addictions, identities. Like, there's a point for many, many people where those things are extraordinarily useful for a time. Yeah. Until all of a sudden they're not. Right? till all of a sudden they're not. And at that point, I think the word you use is one I really like, which is flexibility. Can I pick up this story when it's useful for me and can I put it down when it's not useful for me? Right. Can I see it as a thing that helps me orient and make sense out of my life? Okay, that's great. And can I see when it's not right in this particular situation? It is a flexibility is a key element, I think. Right. Like when you, Eric,

are in a situation where opioids are on offer. Let's say you're passing a kidney stone, right? Like, in that moment, the story, I have an addiction to opioids is a very useful story, right, for you to keep yourself safe. But when you are like, I can't get this job because of my addiction, it's not useful, right?

Precisely, yeah, yeah. And it's why I am like inneagram. I'm like, well, I like, I like these personality things up to a point. Right. Because then I'm like, I don't want to define myself that way. It's useful to a certain point to see my tendencies. Yeah. But I don't want to limit myself and see everything through that lens, which again, I get as a nine thing to feel.

but it is that ability to just be flexible and recognize and I use that word very specifically tendency because I think we have tendencies and it's good to know what our tendencies are but that's that's what they are they are not like you have to be that way you can only be that way you will always be that way it's that you left left unguided that's kind of where you'll drift to, but you can choose a different destination. Know what I've come to feel about personality systems like that, which I love, obviously, or astrology or any of the human design or any of these mystical systems or personality types, particularly when they're paired with coaching or with therapy, I think that they're incredibly

useful. And I have friends who are both, who are, you know, therapists who are astrologers or enneagram people who coach. And I think they're really helpful because they allow the therapist or coach to triangulate off of type or tendency, as you said, in order to actually address what's present in a way that is slightly less confrontational and direct. But I think it's really helpful to say, like, well, Eric, as a nine, your tendency is to dissociate and numb. And this is a trait of most nines, right? Like this is where, this is the addiction type on the onion gram. And it only goes so far, right? But it gives them, I think, an opportunity to sort of contextualize what's happening

for people in like a we context, like in something that's larger than them so that then you can actually like get close to what's present and it's not as charged. Does that make sense? It totally does make sense. Yeah. I don't want to ever hear my horoscope. I don't ever want to hear a psychic reading. I don't, like, even if you came to me, like, I'll give you this $25,000 package of, you know, all the best psychics in the world. I would say, keep going down the road for someone else. Because I don't even want it in my head. Yeah. I don't believe in predicting the future either for what it's worth. Yeah. Exactly. That's precisely it. Yeah. Because I would be like, that's all nonsense. Except for like 2% of my brain is going to be like,

oh, shit, you better watch out for X, Y, and Z. And I just don't want that, you know, I want that 2%, you know, I want it all for me. I know a lot of psychics and mediums, incredible world-class ones. And mediums, I think, can be so incredibly life-affirming for people who are in distress. But I feel like I have never heard anyone, any of these world-class psychics and mediums predict the future. One, I don't think that they would. It's not responsible. And two, there's free will.

You know, it's like they can see sort of a panoply. of possibilities, but I don't think that they would know. I don't think they see necessarily beyond that veil, but I think they can be really interesting in terms of contextualizing and telling you what's already happened to you in a way that you're like, wow, that's weird. Yeah. I don't want anyone to tell me what's going to happen. Yeah.

So I probably have a limited view of what that world is like because I tend to think of it as. I'm just kidding. You'll guide me into into the strange lands. Let's just woo-woo you out. I like it all, you know. Let's do it. I'm a cafeteria queen of everything. So now I'd like to move into a couple of the sins if we get there.

And the first is envy. I think this is a really interesting one. So talk to me about envy. I am just stating, I really want. want to hear how this shows up in your life because I sort of posit that envy is the gateway sins to all the other sins. It is, I think, the source of all the women on women hate that we experience in our culture. And originally, at the very beginning of this journey, I wanted to write a book entirely about envy. It was how I came to honor best behavior

because I was like, this is it. Envy is our unconscious. is spinning women out. And I will say that when I talk about all of my work, that is what every woman wants to invariably talk about. So this started many, many, many years ago. I was interviewing Lori Gottlieb, who wrote, maybe you should talk to someone, which is a great book about therapy. And she made this very small aside. She said, Instead, envy shows us, I always tell my clients to pay attention to their envy because it shows them what they want. And I could not get this out of my head for two reasons.

One, the first reason was that I had this visceral, going back to the idea of the two wolves, I had this visceral feeling about envy where I was like, ooh, God, I envy never. Like, I would never, I don't envy anyone. gross. So, of course, I was like, oh, God, flagging for therapy follow-up. And then the second thing was very sad for me, which is this idea that envy shows you what you want, someone has something or is doing something that you want for yourself. I was like, well, what do I want? I don't know. I have no idea. I could not tell you what I wanted. And that was really sad. And so I kept thinking about this, I was like, okay, if envy is this mechanism by which you can figure out what you want,

what if I reverse engineer it? Because what happens, and this gets into shadow, but I think what happens with envy for women in particular, but maybe also for you, is that because I think it's so bad, when I start to get this like feeling of envy, when someone is doing something that I want or has something that I want, I realize that I would repress it and suppress it and then project it and make whoever was inspiring my envy bad. And so I realized that was the process and that I could reverse engineer it. I could unwind it to figure out who I was envious of and what I wanted. And I did this, and this won't surprise you.

This is maybe eight years ago. I was the chief content officer at Goop at the time, co-host of the podcast, ghost writing books. I'd ghost written, I think probably 11 books at that point. I'd never written under my own name. I worked at a company where we didn't have bylines. I love hiding behind other people. And I noticed that I would say things like, oh, like, why do people think her book is so good? I don't understand how that's a New York Times bestseller.

Or I think she's, you know, annoying. I don't like her as an interviewer. She annoys me, et cetera. And I was like, oh, there we go. this is not about this writer or this podcast host. This is about me and what I want. And these women are holding up a mirror and knocking on my soul's door and saying, pay attention to this. I am doing something or I have something that you want. Now, go get it. And so when envy is made conscious and when we start to use it as a GPS, it's a very powerful. connector to the soul. And I think when I observe our culture and I hear women, and again, I spend more time with women maybe than you do, and I hear that sort of irrational, I just don't like her, she rubs me the wrong way, who does she think she is, that instinct, I need to put her

back in her place. She is too big for her britches. She is a tall poppy in the poppy field. And envy Venn diagrams, I will say, with pride and with greed because of scarcity, because we also have this feeling, like, if she has this thing, there's only room for one. So in order to have this thing, I need to destroy her. These things all conspire together for a lot of what I think we see in the culture, which is like taking visible women down based on reputational harm and just destroying them and then showing up for their comeback tours, always. But that's the mechanism. And so I think as women, when we look around and we are invariably sad about what we haven't accomplished in the world and we want to blame men and we want to blame the system and we want to blame patriarchy and some of that blame is deserved, I think.

But a lot of it is us. We have internalized patriarchy and we're enacting it on each other. We're policing ourselves and each other and striking down women. men who dare to be seen and who are going after what they want and are avatars of possibility, right? But we wouldn't allow ourselves to do that. We wouldn't let ourselves get away with that. And so we project and then we destroy.

So I think envy, if we could work with our envy honestly and recognize like I'm deprecating her because she's making me feel bad about myself, it's not actually about what she's doing. It would be incredibly transformational, I think, for women. And I don't know. My experience and talking to male therapists who work with men specifically is that envy is very different. It's much more overt. It's much more actionable for men. But what has been your experience?

I would say that everything you've said has some elements in it for me. I certainly have gotten a lot better at. realizing when I don't like a man, which would be, I don't know, 75 to 95% of them. Not Joe. Joe, I love you. Joe. Chris is editing. No, no. Um, is that oftentimes there's an envy component of it. I see them as being something or having something that I don't when it's there. And so I've gotten a lot better at sort of recognizing that. And I certainly recognize when I don't, when I really don't like someone, I have to really look like, okay, what's going on here?

Yeah. You know, like, I'll just, you know, I'll be transparent. Andrew Huberman. It's very easy for me as a gut reaction to dislike Andrew Huberman. There's no good possible reason on earth. I barely know anything about him. but he's been extraordinarily successful as a podcaster he looks to me like the typical sort of macho man and i've heard a couple vague rumblings about him and so it's very easy for me just to be

like eh and so for me the work is like okay a there is envy there because you want to you know you would love your podcast to be huge and b you don't know anything else about him like That's an irrational dislike. I don't want to use the word irrational. I will say that it's not a well-founded dislike. Now, as far as envy pointing us towards what we want, for me, I have to be careful here. Because, yes, sometimes envy does show me exactly what I want. And I think, like many people, I can be memetically driven into wanting things that aren't actually what I want

or aren't actually good for me. Yeah. Or are things that are sort of wired into me that maybe are instincts that I don't want to run wild. Right. And so for me, it's a little bit of, yes, I agree. I always, when I feel it, it's sort of a good time for me to go, okay, interesting. What's going on?

Do you think that envy is memetic? Because I think that, and I love that you brought this up, I love Renee Gerard's work. But I feel like envy is singular and that when you actually, if you said to your friends, like, are you envious of Andrew Huberman, most of them would be like, no. I think memetic desire is more like contagious when you're sort of on Instagram and you're like, yeah, of course I'm going to be compelled to want that thing. I think you're right. But then I think that thing lands in specific forms. So for example, I have had a long dislike of television commercials, a deep dislike. And the reason is, I am eff-inceptible. I love it. I am absolutely capable of sitting there watching, being perfectly content with my life

and seeing a bunch of beautiful people on a beach drinking a beer and me go, God, my life sucks. Right? Like, I, it works on me. So that's an example of now I'm feeling envy. Yeah. It's not at anyone in particular. It's just at people who are beautiful and are on a beach and are carefree. Yeah.

That's not me in envy. any way, shape, or form, really. Yeah. But it pulls on something. It pulls on something that feels relatively primal, though, also, which primal can be good, I think, because it points us towards real things. But I also think part of our job is to evolve beyond just that and examine it. So I do think for me, envy can be memetic because, yes, Huberman's specific to podcast,

But you could ask any, you could ask it probably any man, and he could point to whoever in his field is further ahead of him and say, oh, if I just was up there, then I'd be happy. That's what I want, is to be up there. Yeah. But up there isn't anywhere on one level, right? So again, it tells me something about what's important. I want to do better, but it also has me doing things like counting podcast downloads is the most important. thing. Yeah. It's not for me. And yet it's an easy success metric. And of course, it means money. And all these things get tied together. So yes, I do think at a base level, yes, envy for me has

been very useful to look, you know. And what I actually find more, actually a little bit more useful is who do I admire? And what is it about them? Because there's a little bit of envy mixed in there a little bit, I suppose. That for me helps me both tie what I want with what I value maybe a little closer together. But I think figuring out what we want and what we want versus what we value and, you know, sometimes I think a lot of this work is, for me, has been about wanting better things. It's been about wanting things that actually have a chance of satisfying me, actually have a chance of leading me to happiness versus what at first glance seems like would do it? Yeah. No, I think that's really important. And I think that with

anything, right, like even thinking about Andrew Huberman and podcast success, and I have so many thoughts about Andrew Huberman and wrote like a series about him that went, I mean, like, let's be relative with the term, but like went a little viral before the New York magazine story came out about him. But my concern with him, it ended up becoming a four-part series, is more that he doesn't interview. He's gotten slightly better. But up until that point, he had only ever interviewed eight women. It was a general piece about the lack, the dearth of female experts that are highlighted amongst him and Peter Attia and Tim Ferriss and how their ascension and podcast land has drowned out.

the voices of women and that women are sort of unconsciously subscribed to their shows, not realizing that they're talking about the research that has been done by women, but they don't have the women on. They don't have them on. And to the point where it's like you see Andrew Heberman, he was a PhD in the optic nerve, and Peter Attia having a four-hour conversation about menopause. It's like, bros, come on. I mean, it drives me crazy.

Anyway, but I think that what you're saying, too, is, so important, which is there's sort of what we want. And that want can't be an object. It's not a destination. Life is a process, right? So it's just another GPS point. It's like an indicator of there's something here that is pulling you forward. So what is it and why? And how do you use that intelligently rather than denying it? Right. Right. Like someone who's been a mentor to me is Jonathan Fields and Good Life Project. Yeah. And Jonathan, you know, when I started, he'd been doing a podcast for a few years.

He was a few years ahead of me. He's always been a little bit like, you know, he just keeps going and I'm sort of, you know, following along behind. But it's been a useful one for me because I admire Jonathan. Yeah. I look at Jonathan. I'm like, okay, that's what I want to be. Yes, I do want more success, but I want it on those terms.

That's the way I want to do it. That's the, you know. And so, again, for me, that's why I think looking at. who I actually admire is a useful thing versus who I might just envy. And the other one is that I think, and we need to wrap up because we are way over time, we'll go into a post-show conversation if you have a few minutes. But I also think that envy pulls on insecurity. I feel like envy pulls on my insecurities in ways that if I'm not careful,

I'm now, I'm responding to something I think I want because it's, triggering something I don't think I actually am or I have. I think a ton about desire. Yeah. Because it's hugely important. It's the energy for everything. And yet it can lead us in, you know, as the Buddha has clearly pointed out, left unchecked for me, it's problematic. I will say that. Yeah. And yet I want its energy. Yes. Yeah. That's beautiful. And I think for all of us, whether we desire things that could kill us or not, I mean, I'm sure we all do in some ways, right? Like, we're all on the spectrum.

But yeah, it's part of it, I think, is like this part of you is feeling tender and unloved and needs care. And but I think we also have to titrate that, right? Like there's only so much work that we can ever do at a time to integrate. all of those parts of ourselves, and we can't do it in a day, and we can't do it all simultaneously. But yeah, this is life, right? Like, you're doing it. Yeah, it's always an ongoing dance. I mean, I think that's the idea is there's no, there's no arrival. Yeah. I know we're over time. Just to put a note, too, on what you were saying about who you admire and your mentor, there's this sticky note that I have on my computer, and it's from this woman, Chris Schumacher,

who's one of sort of the guides in my life. And it's that your vibration must be higher than what you create, otherwise you cannot manage it. And these are words to live by. And I think about the Good Life Project or what you're doing. And I think about what I do too. It's like I want to build something in integrity and in wholeness that I can manage that isn't going to sort of flip me upside down.

I don't, I can't manage Andrew Huberman. can and manage Andrew Huberman, you know? Yeah, agreed 100%. Yes, I think that's a great quote. Before we wrap up, I want you to think about this. Have you ever ended the day feeling like your choices didn't quite match the person you wanted to be? Maybe it was autopilot mode or self-doubt

that made it harder to stick to your goals. And that's exactly why I created the six saboteurs of self-control. It's a free guide to help you recognize, the hidden patterns that hold you back and give you simple, effective strategies to break through them. If you're ready to take back control and start making lasting changes, download your copy now at one you feed.net slash ebook. Let's make those shifts happen starting today. Oneefeed.net slash ebook. Well, we are out of time. You and I are going to continue in the post-show conversation because I do want to talk about sloth a little bit because given that it sounds like

both you and I have this one is like, you know, I always have to be doing something. I always have to be useful. I always have to be, I'd love to talk a little bit about that. Listeners, if you'd like access to that as well as help support this show because we can always use your help and some other great things like ad-free episodes as well as a special episode I do each week just for you, you can join our community at one you feed.net slash join. Thank you so much for coming on. This has been great conversation.

Thank you, Eric. I have loved it, and I cannot wait to turn the tables on you. Thank you so much for listening to the show. If you found this conversation helpful, inspiring, or thought-provoking, I'd love for you to share it with a friend. Sharing from one person to another is the lifeblood of what we do. We don't have a big budget, and I'm certainly not a celebrity, but we have something even better, and that's you.

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