The One You Feed - Why Community and Courage Matter More Than Ever with Laura McKowen

Episode Date: May 9, 2025

In this episode, Laura McKowen explores why community and courage matter more than ever in making change in your life. She dives into the “messy midle” – theu ncertain space between giving up what umbs us and becoming someone new. She shares the story of the Luckiest Club, a global sobriety community. Key Takeaways: Understanding that real transformation is messy Learning how sobriety isn’t the finish line, but the starting point for deeper healing Understanding why community is so important and powerful Discover fawning as a trauma response and how it shows up in life Learning to balance honesty with fear How discernment and clarity often come in conversation with others If you enjoyed this conversation with Laura McKowen, check out these other episodes: How to Tap Into the Longings of the Heart with Sue Monk Kidd A Journey to Self-Discovery and Sobriety with Matthew Quick Special Episode: Finding Hope on the Path to Sobriety For full show notes, click here! Connect with the show: Follow us on YouTube: @TheOneYouFeedPod Subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify Follow us on Instagram See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Everything we do is a negotiation with the world. It's a call and response and a conversation. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit.

But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction. How they feed their good wolf. Transformation rarely arrives with a clean line or a tidy plan. It comes instead in the messy middle, the space between who we've been and who we're becoming.

Laura McCowen calls this the threshold where everything feels uncertain, uncomfortable, and even sometimes unbearable. In this conversation, we talk about what it means to stand in that in-between place, why change isn't the end of pain, but the beginning of healing, and how we can start to build a life that can actually hold us.

Because the truth is, giving up the thing that numbed us, whether it was alcohol, control, work, or anything else, isn't enough. We have to become someone new. I'm Eric Zimmer, and this is the one you feed. You're listening to an iHeart podcast. My husband has a secret son from a past partner. Hold up Sam. How do we know how we've done the DNA test? Well, John, luckily it's Mother may I have a DNA test week

on the OK Storytime podcast. So we'll find out soon. And this wife writes, my husband received a Facebook message from a woman saying that he is the father of a five year old. Whoa! At first he didn't remember her, but then he realized they had a one night stand

right before we started dating. Wait, but do we have proof he's the dad? To hear the explosive finale, listen to the OK Storytime podcast on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I found out I was related to the guy that I was dating. I don't feel emotions correctly. I collect collect my roommates toenails and fingernails. Those were some callers from my call-in podcast

Therapy Gecko. It's a show where I take phone calls from anonymous strangers as a fake gecko Therapist and try to learn a little bit about their lives I know that's a weird concept But I promise it's very interesting Check it out for yourself by searching for Therapy Gecko on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Jay Shetty, and I'm the host of the On Purpose podcast,

and I'm excited for my next episode with Khloe Kardashian. God, I've been through so many things that at this point I would rather not feel than feel because feeling. Thank you for having me again. Yes, I am so excited to talk to you again. I loved our first conversation. And I'm excited for this one. But we will start like we always do with the parable. And I'll give you another chance to answer it because your first answer was unsatisfactory. Oh, it probably I have no idea what I don't

either idea what you said. I was trying to remember. I would imagine few of our listeners would remember, although I know a bunch of them loved it. And I often recommend your book to people early in sobriety, particularly people who love good writing. I think it's such a great book about sobriety, but you're also such a good writer and people who appreciate literature appreciate your book. So yeah, in the parable, there is a grandparent talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves and cyborgs that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops,

thinks about it for a second and looks up at their grandparents and says, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says that the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. Yes. So I couldn't remember how I answered it the first time. I almost went to look it up and then I thought, don't bother. But what it means to me right now in my life and my work, the battle exists in having the courage to say the truth, speak the truth, even when it is gonna disappoint and possibly piss off and possibly make people

really hate me and knowing that that's not personal. I guess another way of saying it is the bad wolf is playing it safe or thinking that there is such a thing as safety when you have a public voice and desiring that. And the good wolf is wanting to be free and doing whatever that means in the moment, especially when it comes to telling the truth.

I had no problem, well, it's not that I had no problem, but I've been talking about hard things for a while and I had no problem really doing that in talking about sobriety because it was saving my life, but I feel like I've reached this point where now there are other things that I really wanna talk about, but I've got a bigger platform, there's more people

listening, there's more people watching. And I get afraid. That's a good wolf, bad wolf thing in my life right now. Yeah, I think it's a really interesting point because I think there's two things that start to happen. At least this has been my experience. Thing one is just a genuine fear, like I don't want people to not like me, etc. The other is I don't want to drive people away from what I feel is like really important content or messaging. Like for you, you're talking about people about getting sober. It's life and death and feeling like I don't want to drive people away from that by sort of moving quote unquote off topic in a way that

starts to drive certain people away. And so for me, it's been this balance, particularly as I've begun, not begun to, as I've thought more about how do I bring issues that are beyond personal development that I care about to other things I wanna talk about, there's things I want to advocate for, there's all that. And so how do I do that in a way

that is helpful and useful? But I also don't want to drive people away who can be getting something valuable out of what I'm doing. I mean, obviously, there's the like not wanting to drive away people because you don't want your numbers to go down. But then there's a genuine, there's a genuineness. So I find both those I find both, you know, I'm battling a variety of factors when I start thinking about those things. Yeah, all of those things are true for me too. I think 2020 and 2021 were traumatizing. I mean, that's an understatement for everybody.

And one of the things that I experienced was being a person with a public voice. It can be really nasty in the online spaces and less so in the real world, but a lot of what I do is trying to distill and present information in an online space. And I'm choosing to do that. So it's like, I don't want to be light and fluffy and easy and always be safe. Right? I actually don't want that at all. But I find myself challenged to, as you said, bring in other topics and not get sucked into the dark side of it.

Yeah, it's tough. To put out what I put out with integrity and then let whatever's going to happen happen. Yep. And I think I've always sort of been like, well, we're not a political show, right? Like that's not what we do. Right. And then you hit these points, at least I did, where I went, is this a political issue? This feels like it's a issue about basic values. But even conversations about basic values seem to be political these days. And it's it's challenging, you know? Yeah, everything's political now. So we I mean, this is a whole rabbit hole. But everything is political now. You know, up to a vaccine being entirely political. Yep. So that's just the world we're operating in. So I'm learning how to have courage in that space.

And it's honestly, for me, it's really humiliating. And like, it brings up a lot of my old junk around people pleasing. And that made me really sick, you know? It was dishonesty at the end of the day and really feeling like I lacked a center. That was not a good place for me. Yeah, there's a line that you said in a blog post

not too long ago, you said, "'There are some things that still undo me. "'The worst feeling like someone I care about "'is mad at me.'" And I completely resonate with that. I think that is my biggest Achilles heel is that very thing is like, when someone is mad at me that I care about, it's really difficult.

Really difficult. Yeah, and it's a small circle of people that can undo me like that. It's the people that I actually care about. But it's so easy for me to snap into just my therapist says, one of my defense mechanisms is called categorically wrong. I just go, you're right. I'm wrong. Everything I do is wrong. Yeah.

I'm wrong. And it's like this really dark shame spiral, not helpful. In that blog post, we hear about flight and freeze. And you mentioned that there's, you know, something called fawning. Say more about that. Oh, yeah, that was a big learning for me that we know of the fear responses typically as the, you know, fight, flight, freeze of five Frees, the three Fs, but that there's actually a fourth. I can't remember the psychologist that coined it,

but it's called fawning, and it's in response to fear, we fawn over someone. We go towards them instead of running or freezing. We go towards them. We kiss their ass. We try to appease them, we abandon ourselves entirely and our needs entirely. And that's me, that was my primary coping mechanism, is fawning.

Not always, but with a certain type of person, and of course it mimics childhood stuff and everything like that. That was really helpful to me because it named something that I've experienced so acutely. And you know when you're doing it, it doesn't make sense. It feels terrible. But it's all an appeal for safety,

for keeping the attachment. It's like keep your enemies closer type of thing. If I just get closer to them, whatever I need to do to make myself okay in their eyes and I'll be okay. Yeah it feels terrible and so does staying sort of centered in myself and what I think and what I believe. Which I think is the way we try and change a lot of old patterns. Sobriety being a great example. It's like early on in that change process it's really difficult. Like which of these feels worse? They both feel pretty bad. Yeah, no

kidding. It's a true dilemma and the Greek tragedy sense of the word. You're not picking between one nice peaceful road and one terrible road. It's both feel terrible. It's just, which is gonna, you know, good wolf, bad wolf type of thing. It's like, yeah, it does feel terrible. I mean, for me, you know, I found it was intolerable to sit with myself, discomfort if someone was mad at me. It was absolutely intolerable. So, you know, I have to give myself some credit that I don't do it so much anymore.

But there are, of course, still instances here and there where, you know, one is where my partner and I got into a fight about three months ago and we've been together for almost a couple years at this point and have a really beautiful solid relationship. And when we got into this fight and it wasn't like World War II, it wasn't even a big fight, but this is where we go, right, in conflict. For me, it felt like the relationship was on the line. And it took

everything in me not to just try to fix it, just immediately fix it. And the couple days where the storm was brewing between us and you just had to like wait for it to settle were really, really difficult for me. And when I told him, you know, after we finally did talk that it feels to me like the relationship is threatened, he was shocked. It's like, what are you, really? You know, we're just fighting. Like this is-

Settle down, Laura. Yeah, we're just fighting. Like this is, this is fine. But that's trauma stuff kicking up. That's right, it doesn't feel fine. I think that with stuff like this, I think we often think that we'll get to a point where we'll do enough healing and enough inner work where we'll be able to do that sort of thing.

Like I'm going to say something's not okay with me, and then I'm going to step back and I'm not going to fawn. I heard this from somebody recently, step into my power. And I was like, well, yes, you are stepping into your power, but it's really important that you recognize you're not going to feel powerful. Probably in that moment, you're going to feel terrified. If you wait until you feel powerful to do it, there will be no doing it. You know, and so I think what you're saying is so important is like, yeah, I was able to do it, but boy, it didn't feel very good.

No, it felt terrible. Not sleeping, not eating, the full catastrophe. But you do it. And that's what it means to be in love with someone, whether it's a partner or a sibling or a friend. If you feel comfortable 100% of the time, and you're never afraid, and you're never hurt, and you're never feeling and you're never hurt and you're never feeling the weight

of loving them. My friend Jim Zartman, who's a coach and a pastor, says being married, this is quite gruesome but it's like each of you has a revolver that you put your partner's finger on the trigger and you just trust that they don't point it at your head and you trust that they're not going to pull it. So that's just the point it at your head and you trust that they're not going to pull it. You know, so that's just the way it is. If you're really open, you're going to risk being shot. You know, I think that's an interesting idea.

I've seen more and more of this. I feel like when I first got sober, which was like 1994, but I think even probably around when, when you got sober and when I got sober again, the second time, you know, there was a lot of talk about codependency and I think some of this I got from Buddhism which can be interpreted this way if you're not careful the sense was that the psychologically healthy person was this independent whatever you do doesn't affect me I'm so secure that I don't get ruffled by anything. And what I've seen really change over the last, really probably last four or five years

is more of an understanding that kind of like you're saying, that healthy love means that we are vulnerable to someone and we can be hurt. So I think it's sorting that out. Like what's trauma informed response? What's unhealthy response and what's normal human like, my partner's upset with me. So of course it feels bad. God, yes, absolutely. I'm so glad you brought that up. Codependency is real. You know, there, there is very dysfunctional codependency, but I think the truth is always somewhere

in the middle, as we know. Healthy places in the middle and balance. It's murky. I've said to him many times, you could really hurt me. At the beginning of our relationship, it was like, wow, you could really hurt me. I hadn't really been in a partnership like quite like that before. It's wonderful because you're all in and it's terrifying because you're all in.

And we do depend on each other. It is murky. I definitely don't have the answers to that. It's like, you know it when you feel it kind of, but to give a point by point description of the difference is really difficult. I think even healthy relationships can have a small amount of codependency.

If you're an attuned person, I mean, I'm very attuned to other people's energy, then my daughter too, and when they're upset, I feel upset. Yep, yep. Does that make me unhealthy? I don't think so. It's, I guess, what I do in response to that.

If I need them to be okay for me to be okay, then we are drifting into unhealthy territory. But I think otherwise, it's just loving. I think what you said there's really important, like, how do I respond to them in a way that doesn't make it about me? Exactly. Doesn't make them being upset, them being down into suddenly about me. And there are people I've had in my life before, maybe I was one of these people at some point, where no matter what it is, it immediately sort of flips into like, they feel bad.

You know, I no longer even feel comfortable feeling bad. Yeah, now I have to rescue you. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's a responsibility thing, I think, even feel comfortable feeling bad. Yeah, now I have to rescue you. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's a responsibility thing, I think, at the end of the day, but it's overlapping circles. You know, there's not, you exist here, and I exist here, and we never cross. We do. But at the end of the day, you feel responsible for your own experience.

Yep. You mentioned fight, flight, freeze, fawning. I heard another term recently for it, which was flopping. She made me laugh. I was like, that kind of just, yeah, I've been, that's, that sort of describes me. Fight, flight, freeze. Yeah. So none of those are flopping. That's hilarious. You just kind of collapse in on yourself. Yeah, go to sleep. Yeah, I've flopped. The flopping and fawning feel more true to me than the other three.

Yeah, exactly. Me too. Me too. We were talking about this a little bit beforehand, but maybe we could hit on this as a general topic. You recently published something on one of your social channels about some books that you've loved recently. And maybe before we go into what any of them are, the books you've talked about were fiction books. Talk to me about what fiction specifically gives

you that feels so important and valuable. Okay. I love this topic. You know, I would say I'm traditionally much more of a nonfiction memoir lover. That would be my first love maybe. But ironically, several of the books that have been instructive to me and helpful to me, I would say the top three or four of them are not memoir or nonfiction. They're novels. And I'd have to say it's the mythology of it all. What we get to experience in fiction

is some representation of a myth. So then it kind of widens the aperture of what's possible because real life is just real life. It can only get the strange as real life gets or whatever. But fiction, I mean, you can include magical surrealism, you can include fantasy, you can include, you know, historical fiction, you can include things that are true and not true

and anything, you know? And so you can use those tools to create a myth. And to me, the myths are what we're always after, this timeless stories, the archetypal stories that live within us. And so, for example, one of the books that I posted was the Book of Longings, which you and I talked about, which is a fictional story about an alternate story of Jesus. Obvious, as Sumon Kidd wrote it, obviously researched widely. And there was, I mean, it was beautifully researched. You could tell she abided by what we know to be true about the story of Jesus, but also had to add, like, all kinds of things. And there's something in that

that made it feel more real and more true because she allowed her imagination to fill in the blanks. So yeah, I just also love the writing, the literature of fiction. You can see that sometimes in memoir, but in memoir, you know, they're trying to tell a true story. So the writing tends to be different. I won't say always, but it tends to be different. Even if you look at writers who do both memoir and fiction writing, the fiction writing just has a different feel. There's more prose, it's more lyrical often. It feels like you just can get immersed in that world. Before we dive back into the conversation, let me ask you something. What's one thing that has been holding you back lately?

You know that it's there. You've tried to push past it, but somehow it keeps getting in the way. You're not alone in this, and I've identified six major saboteurs of self-control, things like autopilot behavior, self-doubt, emotional escapism, that quietly derail our best intentions. But here's the good news, you can outsmart them. And I've put together a free guide to help you spot these hidden obstacles and give you simple actionable strategies that you can use to regain control. Download the free guide now at oneufeed.net slash ebook and take the first

step towards getting back on track. One of the things about doing the show that is hardest for me is I have so much reading to do for guests that I don't get to read as much fiction as I used to but I still try and squeeze it in there's something about it that I deeply love. That Book of Longings book I found so fascinating to see her describe somebody who is in relationship with Jesus. Like what might it be like to be the intimate partner of somebody who's that single-minded? Of Jesus Christ. Of the like most meta character in history you could say. What's so great is, you could say.

You know, it's not easy. You think, like, well, you know, but if you really think about, like, well, Jesus was kind of a not always an easy to get along with guy. Like, you know, like it's just it's amazing. But that's not all it is because she is an amazing character in her own right. I know you've got a line from that book that you love, which I'll let you share in a second. My favorite line from it was, I think it was a prayer she offers or something, which was, bless the largeness inside me no matter how I fear it. Oh, I just got goosebumps. Yes, that was also one of mine. Bless the largeness in me. Yeah, I love when I am dust seeing these words over my bones. She was a

voice. That's so good. Yeah, I know I was gonna interview her. I think I had read something of hers years before but hadn't in a while. So we just, I just kind of immersed myself in her world for like three weeks and it was just lovely. You know, when Ginny and I drove to Atlanta and back we listened to some of the books on tape and I read that book and it was just, I guess they're not books on tape anymore. I guess that's not really what it is. Well, it's okay. I understand what you mean. I listen to books on tape too. Okay, good. On my iPhone. Yeah. She is an extraordinary, extraordinary writer and woman. And her female

characters are some of the best that have been written. Her first book, The Secret Life of Bees, that was when I fell in love with her work. And I think when a lot of people did, it was her first novel and with the women in that book. And then, you know, Anna in the Book of Longings was among the best I've ever read too and strong female characters. The divine feminine is what she really captures. This week on Dear Chelsea with me, Chelsea Handler, Connie Britton is here. I think you should encourage your friend to go ahead

and not be holding out for any man to have her babies. If she is passionate about becoming a mother and she has her eggs frozen and she has her life together, go for it. She could be waiting another 10 years before she finds the right guy. Connie didn't meet her right guy until you were what, 50, Connie? How long have you guys been together?

Yeah, no, 52. 52. 52. 52. I adopted my son as a single mom because I kept thinking, oh, I'm going to meet the guy, I'm going to meet the guy, I'm going to meet the guy. I finally was like, what am I waiting for? And I did it.

And I'm just so glad that I did. I want to change the narrative about single parents and also help to create a community for single parents so that they can not feel alone in it. One of the big things is it's so hard, especially for women, to ask for help. Listen to Dear Chelsea on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I found out I was related to the guy that I was dating. I don't feel emotions correctly.

I am talking to a felon right now and I cannot decide if I like him or not. Those were some callers from my call-in podcast, Therapy Gecko. It's a show where I take real phone calls from anonymous strangers all over the world as a fake gecko therapist and try to dig into their brains and learn a little bit about their lives.

I know that's a weird concept, but I promise it's pretty interesting if you give it a shot matter of fact Here's a few more examples of the kinds of calls we get on this show I live with my boyfriend and I found a kid his jar in our apartment I collect my roommates toenails and fingernails I have very overbearing parents. Even at the age of 29, they won't let me move out of their house. So if you want an excuse to get out of your own head and see what's going on in someone else's head,

search for Therapy Gecko on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's the one with the green guy on it. My husband has a secret son from a past partner. Hold up, Sam, how do we know, have we done the DNA test? Well John, luckily it's mother may have a DNA test week on the OK Storytime podcast, so we'll find out soon. And this wife writes,

my husband received a Facebook message from a woman saying that he is the father of a five year old. Whoa! At first he didn't remember her, but then he realized they had a one night stand right before we started dating. Wait, but do we have proof he's the dad? Well, the author says there's no confirmation

the kid is even his son, but the woman from Facebook has a meeting with her lawyer soon. I think she's going after our money. If the kid is actually my husband's, she would be entitled to it too. So what's a husband got to say about this? This could be his kid.

Well, apparently he broke down in the middle of the living room apologizing, but this is what scared me. His first instinct, if the kid is his son, is to pay the child support, but not be an active father in the kid's life because he only wants a family with me, his wife. Oh, this is a mess.

To hear the explosive finale, follow OK Storytime on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's change directions a little bit and talk about, you know, your book was called The Luckiest, but you've created something called The Luckiest Club. Tell me a little bit about what that is and what's happening there. The Luckiest Club.

So TLC. Very nice. Makes it easy to remember and it's also kind of meaningful. So yeah, I created TLC in, well, what happened is in around early March of 2020, when the world started to shut down, I remember sitting on my couch, school had already been canceled, so my daughter was home. And we were still in that stage of where is this really like, okay, it's gonna be for a couple weeks or, you know, like, it was all all new we weren't quite sure how big it was or

how long it was going to last and I remember sitting there working and saw a Facebook post from the AA group in my local town saying we're not hosting live meetings from you know here on out we'll stay tuned and I went holy s*** okay For some reason it was that, not school closing or anything. Because that room had stayed open in every blizzard. I'd never seen it get shut down. So I thought, this is bad. People need that meeting, those meetings to be open. And of course, it wasn't just my town.

It was like everywhere. So I thought, I know how to host meetings. not AA meetings, but I can host a meeting. And I put together this format. My experience in AA helped me actually think of a format, but I included different readings of my own choosing. So I got to include poetry and literature and whatever I felt like reading, which was really fun to me, and I just kind of decided to do it. I didn't think through much. I posted something on my website. People could sign up.

When they signed up, they came to a page that showed the schedule, and I just, and I was hosting all of them. And I was hosting one or two a week, right? So seven meetings at least a week, couple times a day. And, you know, I did that for two months. Hmm. And, you know, I did that for two months. And it was awesome. It actually helped me so much in that time.

And hundreds of people started to show up. And you know when you just know something is happening? Like something was happening. And so many of these people had never been to a meeting because they never did AA, or they weren't even sober yet. but they had been on my email list or followed me or whatever. So this was their first experience of community and sobriety. And that's life-changing for people if you've never felt that, never experienced that. And they could do it, you know, especially with what was going on.

It was really neat, but it got to be obviously like, okay, I can't keep doing this because this is a lot. And so I thought I was like in real time in meetings talking to them, like, I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm thinking about it. I'm trying to figure it out. And then I set a date. I was like, I'm going to end. I'm going to stop them at this point.

It was like three or four weeks out. Right. And people were like, please don't stop them. We would pay money. Do what you need to do. We hope these continue. And over a couple of weeks, put together a team, hired people to lead the meetings, came up with a format, essentially rolled up a quick business and TLC was born. So we started with about 10 meetings a week. I led one or two of

them, but the rest were led by other people that I knew in sobriety, which was really neat because people that from all different traditions and backgrounds and demographics and experiences and it was just really cool to see what was going on. So we started, you know, we had a private forum off of Facebook where people could talk and then just the meetings. That's all it really was. There was nothing much to it. And then, of course, it evolved because it was really working.

It was giving that core group that I started with where some of them had been in sobriety for 20 years and they were like, I needed this. This is revitalizing my own sobriety. We have a guy named Mike B who's in his early 80s who's a host and he has been sober for 35 years and he's like this is the best thing that's happened to me. And you know we have younger people, older people, it's something that I knew was really special and we all felt that. So fast forward to now, February 21st 2022 and we have 35 meetings a week. We have newcomer meetings and beyond one year meetings

and BIPOC meetings and queer meetings and newcomer or did I say a newcomer and all kinds of other programming too. Beyond just meetings we have something that's called the academy because as you know like we get sober and then it's like, okay, then what? Now what? So we have content to help people. The way we sort of look at it is like, your life is a relationship, you know, with several different things. And in sobriety, you have to strengthen that relationship,

go from unhealthy to more healthy, if possible in that relationship. So the relationship with self, the relationship with others, relationship to body, the relationship to money, finances, and the relationship to work are the ones that we focus on right now.

And it's been quite a ride. I bet. And it's got its own culture, and I've seen people, just like you do in AA, get sober miraculously and change and then go on to, you know, start a subgroup in their own area or for their, you know, like something that they're interested in. And this will be our two year, you know, I can't even remember what year we are in 2021. This will be our two year anniversary in May.

It's wild to think that this didn't exist at some point because it's just this like almost fully formed child now. I'd say it's like a teenager. I was saying before we got on that I didn't really expect to do it, but it's also like, of course it makes sense that this is what was going to happen. This is what was coming. Everything was sort of in preparation for that. And it's probably the most special thing that I've ever been a part of. You know, in AA, there are different aspects of what make up AA. There's obviously the fellowship, the getting together, the meeting with people. And then there is the program, which is you follow the 12 steps.

I'm kind of curious in the Luckiest Club, is it primarily fellowship? I know you're starting to offer program related things. Say a little bit about that. And what I think this raises the more interesting question is we see more and more recovery modalities starting to pop up, which I think is wonderful. You know, as I think about that, I'm like, well, what is it that makes a modality more successful or less successful? And I'm kind of curious what your thoughts are on that, having been through a bunch of the ones that already existed and now having two years of working on your own. Great question. So, you know, we read a script, there's a few things we say in every meeting. We do have a culture, but I wouldn't say yet that we have a program. We don't have,

okay, here's the steps that you work or here's what you go through. That's being developed right now. That's actually the book that I'm writing. What I wanted actually was not to have that in the beginning. What we say is we respect all paths to recovery. We don't do dogma. We lead with compassion. We welcome you as you are.

That's who TLC is today. I don't ever want to do dogma. But I have also seen the need for something for people to work against, to apply themselves against and kind of, yeah, a program, an actual program. Say what you mean by the word against. Like we need a program. I've seen people go, okay, I love going to these meetings because right now it is, I would say, 99% fellowship. It's community. It's not that we just get on the meetings.

It's very intentional. The meetings are very structured. We have speaker meetings and topic meetings, and there's a lot that goes into those. So it's not like this free for all, but it's mostly community fellowship. And that's great. And it's a big part of it. But people want something to work. They want to be able to do the work of sobriety

against a program. And of course, I would say what we have as far as a program goes right now, which isn't really a program, it's more like a mission statement or a credo or something is at the beginning of my, We Are the Luckiest book, the epigraph is actually a list of nine things. And it says, one, it is not your fault.

It is your responsibility. Three, it is unfair that this is your thing. Four, this is your thing. Five, this will never stop being your thing until you face it. Six, you can't do it alone. Seven, only you can do it. Eight, you are loved. And nine, we will never stop reminding

you of these things. And that is what we say at the end of every meeting and that's what my new book is built on is those nine things. So to answer your question, it's been largely fellowship up until this point and then we've started to add in programming. And the reason I think that's interesting is because I think there's this idea that modalities show up fully formed, you know? But the best ones are built in community. Yeah, yep.

You know, they're built as a response to a community need, not dictated from on high. Even Dr. Bob and Bill Wilson did that. You know, they weren't, they wrote the book, they wrote the big book. And I think one of the places where it's unfortunately fallen short is that they haven't updated that literature to be inclusive of modern times. And every spiritual tradition, that is the marker of whether something stays relevant or not. And it's usually done as an oral tradition.

It gets modernized and relevant to the context of the times. But that is what we're doing with TLC, what we're trying to do. It's imperfect also. As soon as you nail something down, you're saying what you think is important, and you're excluding other things, right? You can't do all the things. A pro no program can be all the things. And that's something I've had to come to terms with like that.

I just have to say, this is what we're about and make it as expansive and open as possible and open to interpretation, but also be clear. Right. Yeah. It, there's a little bit of that idea. Like if you stand for everything, you stand for nothing kind of thing. Right. Yeah, there's a little bit of that idea, like if you stand for everything, you stand for nothing kind of thing, right? Like if you get a certain point, you have to start to say, well, there is something here that works. But I think you're right that these things emerge over time

and AA emerged over time. I mean, Bill Wilson didn't suddenly sit down one day and be like, oh, I've got AA figured out. Like it happened by meeting, you know, Dr. Bob and these things happened. And Carl Jung and all these other people, right, that we don't hear about. But it was very much a project of many minds. Yeah. And the thing I've heard also, just to tag on to that, is that there were some people in AA who really pushed on that line at the end, God as we understand Him, that they pushed for that. Whoever the few people were who pushed for that saved millions of lives. Absolutely. Well, it's like founding father language, you know, you kind of look back and you go, how? How did that decision get made? And it was very prescient at the time, you know? Yeah,

that did save millions of lives, God, as we understand him. It's been really interesting. For example, a lot of people said, well, what about moderation and what about harm reduction and why can't that be part of this? Or California sober, what's your stance on marijuana? And it's like, I know. I'm not close enough to the recovery community that I hear that term very often. So every time I hear it, it makes me laugh. Me too. Me too. But it's like, no, we're not about moderation

management. We're not a harm reduction. We're abstinence based community. And that's okay. So you understand something you fall for anything or try to say everything you say nothing, all those things. It's a good check for me because as you know, we get pretty self-righteous about certain things and I've had my mind changed about a lot being in community. And that's why, as my friend Jim says, there's sanity in community. That's why we have it because one person doesn't know. That is a great line.

There's sanity in community. It makes me think back earlier in this conversation we were talking about, like, how do you know when, you know, something is like sort of healthy love or dependence? And and the word that came to my mind was, well, it's really about discernment. And one of the things that I certainly have come to believe, I think I believed it a lot earlier in my recovery, and then maybe I lost it a little bit.

And I've really picked that thread up much more strongly is that like, well, discernment happens in community, it happens with other people. If you're trying to discern all by yourself, it's not to say that none of it's possible, but you know, for me, I almost feel like true discernment needs a community, even if that community is one or two other people. 100%. That's why we talk about relationships. We're always in relationship to things. We're not islands. As much as we like to think we do things alone, we don't. Not well, you know, ultimately. It is a relationship. And discernment happens in community.

And everything we do is a negotiation with the world. It's a call and response and a conversation that we have, right? I think when something gets to be unhealthy and cult-like is when there is no conversation, when there's only rules, when there's only one way. Again, it's that middle way. That fine balance. Yeah. And some people might say AA is a cult, but I think the fact that the traditions were created is what sort of to me stopped it from becoming truly cult-like because nobody had the power. I mean, in cults, very few people have all the power.

As brilliant as I think maybe the steps are in some ways or what they did, I think the traditions are the thing that most blow my mind that I'm like, how did they see that coming? Like how on earth did they design a decentralized organization like that in like 1940? I think there's God in that, you know, not God as a creator person, but Christ consciousness, God consciousness. It makes so much sense. Mere mortals did not create that. We're not that good at that stuff, you know. Our egos

get in the way. They were certainly working from a deeply inspired place. Regardless of how you want to quantify that, they were working somehow from a non-egoic place. Absolutely. Yes. I found out that I was related to the guy that I was dating. I don't feel emotions correctly I am talking to a felon right now, and I cannot decide if I like him or not Those were some callers from my call-in podcast therapy gecko It's a show where I take real phone calls from anonymous strangers all over the world as a fake

Gecko therapist and try to dig into their brains and learn a little bit about their lives. I know that's a weird concept, but I promise it's pretty interesting if you give it a shot. Matter of fact, here's a few more examples of the kinds of calls we get on this show. I live with my boyfriend, and I found his piss jar in our apartment.

I collect my roommates' toenails and fingernails. I have very overbearing parents. Even at the age of 29, they won't let me move out of their house. So if you want an excuse to get out of your own head and see what's going on in someone else's head, search for Therapy Gecko on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

It's the one with the green guy on it. This week on Dear Chelsea with me, Chelsea Handler, Connie Britton is here. I think you should encourage your friend to go ahead and not be holding out for any man to have her babies. If she is passionate about becoming a mother and she has her eggs frozen and she has her life together, go for it.

She could be waiting another 10 years before she finds the right guy. Connie didn't meet her right guy until you were what, 50 Connie? How long have you guys been together? Yeah, no, 52. 52. I adopted my son as a single mom because I kept thinking, oh, I'm going to meet the guy, I'm going to meet the guy, I'm going to meet the guy.

I finally was like, what am I waiting for? And I did it. And I'm just so glad that I did. I want to change the narrative about single parents and also help to create a community for single parents so that they can not feel alone in it. One of the big things is it's so hard, especially for women, to ask for help.

Listen to Dear Chelsea on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My husband has a secret son from a past partner. Hold up Sam, how do we know? Have we done the DNA test? Well, John, luckily it's mother may have a DNA test week on the OK Storytime podcast, so we'll find out soon. And this wife writes, my husband received a Facebook message from a woman saying that

he is the father of a five-year-old. Whoa! At first, he didn't remember her, but then he realized they had a one night stand right before we started dating wait But do we have proof he's a dad well the author says there's no confirmation The kid is even his son, but the woman from Facebook has a meeting with her lawyer soon I think she's going after our money if the kid is actually my husband's she would be entitled to it, too So what's a husband got to say about this this could be his kid well apparently he broke down in the middle of the living room

What's a husband got to say about this? This could be his kid. Well, apparently he broke down in the middle of the living room apologizing, but this is what scared me. His first instinct, if the kid is his son, is to pay the child support, but not be an active father in the kid's life because he only wants a family with me, his wife.

Oh, this is a mess. To hear the explosive finale, follow OK Storytime on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So I want to go to the nine things that you read at the end of the meeting, which were the epigraph to your book. We covered some of these in our first conversation, but given the fact that you read them in every meeting means you, like I probably believe, you can't really hear these things too often. And I love it that at least some of them are just pairs, they're paradoxes, right, that you sort of put in there.

And I'd love to talk about it's not your fault, but it is your responsibility. Because I think this is such a critical piece of recovery, regardless of what it is we might be trying to recover from, whether it be alcoholism or addiction or trauma or any number of different things. But this idea that it's not your fault, but it is your responsibility.

And share a little bit about why that's so important and maybe share what happens if you get stuck on either side of that. I agree. This isn't specific to recovery even. This is just life. This is, I think, what delineates the difference between like what Carl Jung called the morning of life

versus the afternoon of life, or what Richard Roh Carl Jung called the morning of life versus the afternoon of life or what Richard Rohr called the first half of life versus the second half of life. You know, in the first half of life, you're usually very entrenched in one or the other of those things. And in the second half of life, you hold them both. So what they meant to me and why I wrote them that way, I think people tend to fall, well, I don't think, I know from talking to lots of different psychologists in the research for this book that our tendency is to blame. It's sort of our innate reaction as kids,

and even as adults, is to not take responsibility because we're not really taught how. You know, it's something you have to learn. And so a lot of what we do going throughout life is either take on all the blame or put all the blame somewhere else. And or we must take responsibility for things like duty and obligation. So we think we're being responsible, but we're not. We're doing something out of obligation. Women especially do this, like, I am being responsible to my family, let's say. I do everything they ask me to do.

I show up everywhere. I am at the mercy of everyone else's needs. No, that's not actually responsibility because you're not in there. You're not taking responsibility for your experience. You are excellent at duty and obligation. But that's like below the line of responsibility as Christopher Avery developed

it's called the responsibility process and he was really helpful at explaining these things to me. So when we enter into recovery or when we're mired in addiction, our self blame or other blame, blame on others is very thick. It's a world that we're living in. Tons of shame, not only is this terrible, but I'm terrible. And nothing happens there. We can't get anywhere with just, it's my

fault. It's just all my fault. And obviously for cultural reasons do believe it is our fault. You know, we still very much live in a world that doesn't understand addiction. That addiction, where addiction is a moral issue, where people who get addicted just need to make better choices, they lack control, willpower, all those things. It's getting better, but unfortunately, that's still very, very true. And so we feel like pieces of crap. So when people first hear, it's not my fault, it gives them permission to breathe

essentially and then when you say but it is your responsibility that Also actually gives them permission to breathe because people actually really want to take responsibility They might not think they do but we we actually really do but we just have it confused like think they do, but we actually really do. But we just have it confused. Like the reason we want to take responsibility is because that is actually where our freedom is. That's where our power is. That's where we can actually effectuate change. That's where we can have peace. For me, I thought everything was my fault. I never was, it's that person and this person and the world's against me. I was never that. I was like very much the opposite, which is equally as damaging, right? Because it's not true. And they're two sides of the same coin. As long as I'm blaming myself or other people,

I am unable to be effective right now. It's just a bad story. I think what you just said there really caught my attention, which was when I say it's not my fault, I can breathe, right? Because up to that moment, even if I do think it is my fault, there is still I'm trying to defend and justify myself to some degree. Of course. If I think it's all my fault, I'm sort of in a battle. Whereas if I can go, oh, it's not my fault. Like you said, I can drop blame for a second. I can stop fighting something for a second. And then, yeah, oh, it is my responsibility. Opens that up. I want to go back

to something you said a minute ago, though, because I'd love to get your thoughts on this. You talked about duty or obligation. And I'm really interested in values. What are our values? Living out of our values. But living out of our values and duty and obligation are very close cousins, right? Like if I go, well, my value is that I have a value that caring for family members is important. There's a value. That very quickly can bleed into duty and obligation, right? In feeling. And so I'm kind of curious for you, how do you keep those apart? Do you think? Yeah, great question. I've got a lot about this because it's complicated. If you're truly operating out of your values, that means you're living in choice.

And if you're living in choice, then you are taking responsibility. But a lot of times people, their actions and the way they're running their lives are actually not in line with their values. They're in line with someone else's values, with society's values, with their parents' values, with someone else's script. And then they're just resentful, even if they won't say it. So it's not that when you live in responsibility that suddenly your life looks different

and you're not doing anything you don't feel like doing. It's that you're choosing and you know why you're choosing. Even if it's things that are terrible, that feel terrible, I mean, or that aren't your preferences necessarily. You can be in responsibility in them by making the choice and knowing why you're choosing it. It's when we follow a script that we either aren't aware

because we've never actually thought of what our values are. And for good reasons, like, it didn't occur to us that we could. We just took what was given. We did what we were supposed to do. We don't know why we're so miserable. And someone telling you like, have you thought about what you want and what's really actually important to you?

That can be a revelation. And then letting that animate your choices is another revolution. And it might mean your life looks wildly different or it might not mean that, but it's the energy of which you approach things. Are you just reacting to your life or are you consciously choosing the things that you're doing because they're based on your values?

And look, this is a lifelong process, but that's the difference to me is that. I totally agree. And I think the thing that's important in there also is to sometimes keep circling back to choice, right? Like I think that we can get clear on what we value and what's important. This happens with me taking care of my mother, right? Like, sorry, mom, if you're listening.

But it starts from a place of like, I care and I want to do it and it's a value. And then if I'm not careful, it starts to start to feel like duty and obligation, because I forget that you're choosing, I forget that I'm choosing it. So then I have to go stop, hang on, nobody's making me do any of this circle back, what's my value, you know, so it feels like there's a loop that needs to be maintained, you know, which is like, totally value driving choices, choices start to become habitual because we habituate, right? And then going, all right, I don't want to be driven off habit back to choice. Oh, yep.

Still lines up. Okay. I'm, you know, and it's this looping process. It's an active living process that we are in every day. It's not, and your values change over time, you know, of course. That's another thing people don't necessarily get or appreciate or feel they have permission to do. The things that were important to me 10 years ago are not important to me really anymore. Part of that is I'm older, part of that is I'm sober.

We change, we evolve. And I would say you're allowed to change. You're allowed to change. This is such a fascinating topic to me. I am actually about to start on a two-year program in existential psychology. It's very popular in Europe. It hasn't quite come to America, but it's this merging of philosophy, which talks a lot about the concepts of freedom and choice and responsibility, but also psychotherapeutic models. You know, how do you humanize that? So I spent a lot of time thinking about responsibility and the difference because it can get really

murky for me and other people. It's probably one of the most worthwhile endeavors is to commit yourself to discerning the difference to that in your life and to finding a way because look, the other thing is like we don't have control over so much. So it's always done through the lens of your own skills, your reality, your present circumstances, your values at the time. It's always very contextual, right? There are of course, many times in our lives where we're faced with things that we didn't choose. You know, you're taking care of your mother. She didn't choose that and you didn't necessarily choose it either, but it's something that you're faced with making a decision about now. The way to not become resentful of that is to be in responsibility in that choice.

Yeah. Yeah. I think the other thing that's really difficult, and I'd love to keep hearing from you about this as you go through this program and as you learn more and get your thoughts now, but like determining our values and which values are really ours and which values are the ones that we inherited and recognizing that what's the way to say this everything about us is conditioned by the past. I get kind of not hung up, but I spend a lot of time thinking about like, well, what's my real value? Well, okay, what does that mean? Like, how do I know? Because like, who am I? I'm a combination of the forces that have acted upon me. And so I don't want to be just that. And that's very real. And I think this idea of

figuring out what we value is an easy phrase to say, but is extraordinarily difficult work. Yeah, it's some of the hardest work we do, because it often means rejecting people and institutions that have many times done well by us, you know, sometimes even raised us. And, you know, I read something amazing from Adam Grant the other day. I don't know if you're familiar with him, but I shared it actually. He said, too many people spend their lives being dutiful descendants instead of good ancestors. The responsibility of each generation is not to please their predecessors, it's to improve things for their offspring.

It's more important to make your children proud than your parents proud. Amen to that. Yeah, in the Spiritual Habits program that we do, we've got the main program, then there's a second program, an intensive, and we were talking about legacy recently and the phrase legacy sort of being like a connective tissue between generations, right? Like I inherited a legacy and I'm passing one on and getting really clear on which parts of that, like, yep, keep that flowing. And nope, that stops here. You know? That's right. That's a beautiful way to put it like a river. You know, we're going to

keep this part of it going and we're going to put a block up here. Yeah, I love the word legacy and I think that has a tremendous amount to do with values. It is the hardest work that we'll do. I mean, some of the values that my parents had are not mine and some of them aren't mine because they weren't part of my DNA, written in not literal DNA, but it's not in my soul. I was born not valuing those things. And maybe I assimilated and tried to value them for the sake of pleasing my parents and just getting along. But then you grow up, you know, Carl Jung thought that the highest evolution of a person is individuation. And I think that has everything to do with values and being in touch with yourself. I mean, that's the prerequisite is you have to actually be in touch with yourself at any given point in time.

And what does that mean? You know, get me in touch with with what I think there's a couple answers to that and shit. I don't know. This is like, well, out of my depth, but this is how I understand it is my unique blueprint, you know, my Dharma and yogic philosophy, my fingerprint, my soul, what I was set here to do. And I look at that as the part of me that is most connected to God as I understand God. I feel we all have a role that we're here to play.

I mean that quite literally. If you think of nature, everything is sort of by design. And I don't look at this like there's a big crater and it's all pulling strings. It's bigger and more weird than that. But animals, for example, don't get confused about their Dharma. A cat is not trying to be the dog or the squirrel or the frog or whatever in my yard, they're just

fricking cat. And we're a lot more complicated than that. But I do believe that we have in us a blueprint of sorts. And this isn't something I made up. Like this is the story deals with archetypes, but it's also the story of like Arjuna and Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita. You know, it's this idea of Dharma. And I do believe that. And I think that ironically, when we do that, when we take on that mission fully, it actually destroys the ego and we become less us in the egoic sense and more in service of world. Boy, I could unpack that for about six hours because I have so many questions in there and so many thoughts that we can't follow that down its deep rabbit hole. At some juncture,

I would love to because I'll just say this about it, as I've gotten deeper into my various spiritual awakenings, it's almost that the deeper I've gone, in some sense, it's been that the personality sort of dissolves. And so the question that I end up with is, is there a particular nature of quote unquote Eric that exists beyond the genetics that I came into this world with and things that have happened to me, is it I've just sort of brought that form into my source energy that came flowing in, right? Or which just means that then, okay, you know, there are these elements, but at which point do I go, oh, that experience was part of my Dharma, that experience is part of my conditioning

that I don't want, you know? Gets very philosophical very quickly. Well, I think one way that makes sense to me, this is why I really love the first half of life, second half of life idea. I'm rereading right now Richard Rohr's book, Falling Upward, so it's fresh in my mind, but that the first part of life

is all about building the container. We actually need the first part of life. It's not that it's less important or it's somehow stupid or like it's not, you know, we need ego. We need to have a healthy ego. It's like you need to learn all the rules so you know how to break them type of thing. We need a healthy ego to establish ourselves in the world, to build that container and to begin the individuation process. And then the second half of life is deciding what to put in that container. And I think as we put the things in the container, we kind of disappear. At the end of my book, one of the last lines was what I've come to understand about sobriety

is like this unfurling and over time it's become less me and more God. And I didn't even write that. Like I know that's true. I don't want to sound like this religious person because I'm really not, but I am becoming more and more spiritual as time goes on. And I'm just drawn to those teachings because it's what feels the most true to me.

Before we wrap up, I want you to think about this. Have you ever ended the day feeling like your choices didn't quite match the person you wanted to be? Maybe it was autopilot mode or self-doubt that made it harder to stick to your goals and that's exactly why I created the six saboteurs of self-control. It's a free guide to help you recognize the hidden patterns that hold you back and give you simple effective strategies to break through them. If you're ready to take back control and start making lasting changes download your copy now at

onewfeed.net slash ebook. Let's make those shifts happen starting today onewfeed.net slash ebook. There's a quote I used in this Spiritual Habits program yesterday that I love from Jack Kornfield. He said, there are two parallel tasks in spiritual life. One is to discover selflessness. The other is to develop a healthy sense of self. Both sides of that apparent paradox must be fulfilled for us to awaken. Ah, that's beautiful. I need to look at that. Yeah, so we're kind of doing these two different things in our desire to be like, is it this or that, right? You know, I've often been like, which is it? Wisdom would say, well, of course, you're doing both, you know, and whether you're doing them

in parallel, whether you're doing one of them at one point in life and other at another point in life. You were talking about Dharma and Krishna, I was thinking about, I think there's so much wisdom in some of the older Hindu teachings. And one that has always struck me has been that there are different things that you do at different stages of life that make sense, that are absolutely like, they're all part of your spiritual path. Like there's a period where family and career are part of your spiritual development. It's not a distraction from. It's part of it. You go through it and I just love that instead of saying like you just said that that early part of building the container is like it's only there so you can get to the later part.

No, it's all important and all part of it. It all belongs. It's all important. Yeah. The second part wouldn't be meaningful if you never did the first. What Richard Rohr says and what Carl Jung has said is that most people don't get to that. They don't accept the mission of the second half. And I think that's absolutely true. That's why I get excited when I actually talk about sobriety. I've learned that's what is most animating to me about it is because I knew even when I didn't want it with every cell in my body, that it was my invitation. I knew it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we are out of time. Like I said, I feel like I could go down 50 different rabbit holes here and hopefully we'll get to do it again sometime. But thank you so much for coming on. You've got a new book coming that's really exciting.

You've got the luckiest community. We'll put links in the show notes where people can get access to your book, to that community, and another wonderful place for people to have a chance to work on recovery. So thank you so much, Laura. Thank you. This was awesome. Thank you so much for listening to the show.

If you found this conversation helpful, inspiring, or thought-provoking, I'd love for you to share it with a friend. Sharing from one person to another is the lifeblood of what we do. We don't have a big budget, and I'm certainly not a celebrity, but we have something even better, and that's you. Just hit the share button on your podcast app or send a quick text with the episode link to someone who might enjoy it. Your support means the world and together we can spread wisdom one episode at a time. Thank you for being part of the One You Feed community. Hold up Sam, how do we know how we done the DNA test? Well John, luckily it's Mother Maya have a DNA test week on the OK Storytime podcast,

so we'll find out soon! And this wife writes, My husband received a Facebook message from a woman saying that he is the father of a five-year-old. At first he didn't remember her, but then he realized they had a one-night stand right before we started dating! Wait, but do we have proof he's the dad? To hear the explosive finale, listen to the OK Storytime podcast on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I found out I was related to the guy that I was dating. I don't feel emotions correctly. I collect my roommates' toenails and fingernails. Those were some callers from my call-in podcast, Therapy Gecko. It's a show where I take phone calls from anonymous strangers as a fake gecko therapist and try to learn a little bit about their lives. I know that's a weird concept,

but I promise it's very interesting. Check it out for yourself by searching for Therapy Gecko on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This week on Dear Chelsea with me, Chelsea Handler, Connie Britton is here. I think you should encourage your friend to go ahead and not be holding out for any man to have her babies.

She could be waiting another 10 years before she finds the right guy. Connie didn't meet her right guy until you were what, 50 Connie? 52. 52. 52. I kept thinking, oh, I'm going to meet the guy, I'm going to meet the guy, I'm going to meet the guy. I finally was like, what am I waiting for?

And I did it. And I'm just so glad that I did. Listen to Dear Chelsea on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You're listening to an iHeart podcast.