The One You Feed - Why Spending Time in Nature Makes us Happier and Healthier with Florence Williams

Episode Date: June 30, 2023

In this episode, Florence Williams shares the profound benefits of being outdoors and in nature, offering you a fresh perspective on self-care and a path toward increased well-being. Discover the scientific evidence that proves how spending time in nature makes us happier, healthier, and even more creative. In this episode, you'll be able to... Recognize the many benefits of spending time in nature and how they're backed by scientific evidence That 15 minutes in a forest environment can reduce our cortisol levels Understand the concept of Nature Deficit Disorder as we are consumed with modern-day conveniences Understand why being in nature can be better than meditation for some people Learn why it's important to pay closer attention and connect to our surroundings Discover why spending time in nature affects different parts of the brain Understand the potent effects that being in nature has on your emotional and mental well-being. Learn new ways to engage in nature, even in urban landscapes To learn more, click here.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In case you're just recently joining us, or however long you've been a listener of the show, you may not realize that we have years and years of incredible episodes in our archive. We've had so many wonderful guests that we've decided to handpick one of our favorites that may be new to you, but if not, is definitely worth another listen. We hope you'll enjoy this episode with Florence Williams. We don't spend that much time in nature. We are sort of epically disconnected from it. And because of that, we don't know how much time in nature. We are sort of epically disconnected from it. And because of that, we don't know how it makes us feel. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance

of the thoughts we have. Quotes like, garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living.

This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, And does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead.

The Really No Really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Florence Williams, a contributing editor at Outside Magazine and a freelance writer for the New York Times, New York Times Magazine, National Geographic, the New York Review of Books, and numerous other publications. Florence is also the writer and host of the Audible original series, Breasts Abound. She's a fellow at the Center for Humans and Nature and a visiting scholar at George Washington University. Her work focuses on the environment, health, and science. Florence's

first book, Breasts, A Natural and Unnatural History, received the Los Angeles Times Book Prize in Science and Technology. Her latest book is called The Nature Fix, Why Nature Makes Us Happier, Healthier, and More Creative. Hi, Florence. Welcome to the show. Hi, Eric. Thanks so much for having me. Your book is called The Nature Fix, Why Nature Makes Us Happier, Healthier, and More Creative, which is something that I'm very excited talking about because I think I've learned that over the last number of years about myself, and it's not something I would have thought was true, but we'll get into all the science of that in a minute. But let's start like we always do with the parable. Okay. There's a

grandfather who's talking with his grandson. He says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and he thinks about it for a second and he looks up at his grandfather and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. I think my reaction to that parable is a little bit contrarian, I guess I would say. It seems just too simple to dismiss one wolf as the bad wolf

and one wolf as the good wolf. And I guess maybe because I'm a writer and I like to sort of plumb the complexities and depths of people's psyches, you know, I kind of like knowing that both of those wolves can offer us something, you know, and it's sort of too simple, I think, to identify one as being one we should starve and one that we should feed. I guess I feel like sometimes being friends, you know, with the dark wolf, you know, and sometimes you can learn something from that darker place. So I guess that's just something I've been thinking about lately. Absolutely. Yeah, I agree. I agree 100%. So let's talk a little bit about the book. The title is The Nature Fix, Why Nature Makes Us Happier, Healthier, and More Creative. So let's just start

with happier. In what ways does nature make us happier? There have been a lot of studies, actually, over the last, I would say, 10, 20 years showing that when we spend time in pleasant natural environments, and even sometimes unpleasant natural environments, it can really boost our mood. And this is something environmental psychologists noticed, I would say, in the 70s, especially with people who were depressed. it can really boost our mood. And this is something environmental psychologists, you know, noticed, I would say, in the 70s, especially with people who were depressed, you know, after they spent, you know, a certain amount of time outside or in a garden or in a forest, they just reported feeling happier, feeling less frustration, less anger, less aggression. And I would say in more

recent years, that psychology has been really confirmed with neuroscience, with biomarkers. So for example, there has been research coming out of Japan that shows that cortisol levels or stress hormones decrease even after just 15 minutes of being in a sort of peaceful forest environment. And then your blood pressure drops and your heart rate variability shifts in ways that are sort of more resilient to stress. And I think some of us would think, well, that's kind of obvious. You know, we know we feel good after a walk in the park. But I think what was less expected was sort of the level to which our nervous system and our physiology really reflects that. Yeah, the happier goes hand in hand with healthier. And in the book, you cite studies that talk about blood pressure and cortisol levels, and you even cite something called NK cells, natural killer cells. What are those?

Yeah, natural killer cells are part of our immune system. And they are, for example, natural killer T cells, which can fight cancer and other diseases. And again, this research out of Japan seems sort of controversial, is showing that our natural killer cells seem to increase after just these short walks in natural areas. And then also even these natural killer cells, if you put them in a Petri dish, they seem to increase in count, in cell count, after exposure to certain aerosols from cypress trees, which is kind of fascinating. And in a way, if you think about it, I mean, these aerosols from trees are designed to protect the tree. So, you know, trees will emit these in order to sort of ward off pesticides, for example. You know, it could be that there's really something about our human

immune system that can converse with these aerosols as well. It's really fascinating. Yeah. You talk about aromatherapy in the book a little bit, and you talk about the smells. And what I thought was interesting, and it's sort of a theme that runs through the book, is that you're on one hand, you're deconstructing why being in nature makes us feel better. And there's lots of different theories, whether it's smell or sight or hearing. And so you go through the science of each of those and that you're also referencing a lot of classical figures, a lot of poets, different people who are sort of not deconstructing it and saying, take it sort of as a whole thing. And I just thought that was interesting the way you kind

of bounced back and forth between that and the book. Yeah. I mean, I think the science writer in me was really drawn, you know, to the research, to the sort of latest evidence. And of course, we live in an evidence-based society. And so I wanted to make the case kind of based on what they were telling us. You know, and each scientist kind of lives in a silo, right? So the physicist was convinced that the reason we feel good in nature is because of the fractal patterns, you know, that somehow, you know, converse with the perceptual systems in our brain, you know, and the psychologists were convinced, you know, that it had to do with our stress reduction levels.

There were other people who, you know, felt like, oh, it has to do with the color green or the color blue or the smell. And yet, I am a humanist also. And I think part of me was resistant to the idea of so compartmentalizing this really kind of magical, spiritual relationship that we have with the natural world. And maybe it's not just because of, you know, one particular kind of sensory system. And I think that, you know, it's the poets really, and the philosophers who kind of take us back to this more kind of full immersory, full sensory kind of engagement with nature that also appealed to me. There's lots of great quotes in the book from various writers, but one that I loved was Walt Whitman's when he warned of the city's pestiferous little gratifications. And I thought that was such a great description for how sometimes I feel when I'm just in the city or just sort of doing city

like things over a while. It just starts to feel like whatever the gratifications are, they just become, I would never use a word like pestiferous, but I probably should. I love the word pestiferous. And I think it is so appropriate, you know, and especially now, and we do have these little gratifications that are so tied to our technology, you know, which of course really didn't exist in Walt Whitman's time. But isn't that just a perfect description for, you know, what we feel when we get, you know, a text message coming in or, you know, when someone responds to or likes a Twitter post. I mean, it's this little gratification that also just like gnaws at our soul. And on some level,

we know it's really bad for us, even though it kind of tickles our dopamine system. Yep. The idea of seeing this as a holistic thing versus the reductionist science piece reminds me of when I started getting into eating whole foods, because there was this idea that when you deconstruct each of these, like an apple, well, here's the nutrient that's got this nutrient and that nutrient, but there's really an idea that there's something else that the interplay of all those different things makes an apple greater than the sum of its parts. And I think that's very down to how we feel when we're outside. And that depends on paying attention to how we feel when we're outside. And I think, you know, you said it so well at the beginning of the show when you said, you know, I didn't really realize how happy I was going out into nature. I think that's kind of where a lot of us find ourselves, that we don't really pay attention. We're on our phones. Maybe when we're walking outside, we have our earbuds in. We're mulling over, you know, our to-do list. You know how it is. I mean, we're all multitasking so much and we're not really tuning in to how we feel. And I think, you know, if there's one kind of lesson I would love people to take away from this book, it's just to, you know, go outside and also just pay attention to what makes you feel good.

It's just to go outside and also just pay attention to what makes you feel good. You say in the book that some of us don't even realize how nature can make us feel better. We're so distanced from it as a culture at this point. And I myself, I don't think, had any sense of that. It was really when I met a gentleman named Lou DeWine, who I love to bring up. He's now passed away, but he ran a little retreat center in Ohio called Niches. And he was the first person I really got that idea of nature deficit disorder from, that there's something in us that is really lacking if we don't have some degree of exposure to nature. Yeah, that's right. I think it's kind of a vicious cycle. As you mentioned,

you know, we don't spend that much time in nature. We are sort of epically disconnected from it. And because of that, you know, we don't know how it makes us feel. And so we undervalue it. You know, we tend to think other things will make us feel good, like shopping or, you know, binging on Netflix or ice cream. And those things do make us feel good. But we don't really give nature sort of a fair shot, you know, in that competition. And, of course, when we go outside

in nature, really the side effects are mostly positive. I mean, we also get exercise. We also sort of clear our heads and, you know, our cognition can improve. You know, we may sleep better because we're, you know, kind of syncing our cycles to the sun. You know, the benefits are just sort of on and on. And yet, you know, we'd rather just take a pill or eat some ice cream. Yeah. You mentioned in the book how a lot of the science about being in nature is coming out of Japan and South Korea. And you were talking about how they sort of look at this a little bit differently than Americans do. Yeah. What made me think of that was when you said, you know, take a pill and you sort of made a joke like, well, if Americans, if we could

get the benefit of nature and a pill, that's how we do it. Yeah. I mean, we definitely want the quick fix. I think there's no question that, you know, Eastern and Western philosophies about nature are really divergent. I mean, here we consider ourselves really apart from nature. We're separate from it. We think of it as something other. And I think, you know, in a lot of Eastern spiritual traditions and just in daily life, even today, nature is just more integrated into daily life. It's not necessarily pristine nature or wilderness, but, you know, the emphasis on blossoms and on, you know, flower arrangements, on, you know, Zen gardens.

There's just this notion that we can integrate nature into our daily lives. and on flower arrangements, on zen gardens. There's just this notion that we can integrate nature into our daily lives. And I just don't think we do that as much here. And then I also think the questions that the two cultures are pursuing are really different and sort of fascinating. I felt like in many parts of Japan and South Korea, and even in Europe too, I think more of the research is focused on sort of emotional states like psychology. How do we feel better? How do we help prevent depression? You know, maybe part of that is because those cultures really care about prevention and

preventative health. There's state-funded, you know, healthcare, for example. The research in this country is sometimes more focused on how can time and nature actually make us work harder? How can we be more productive? How can we drain more blood, you know, from office workers by maybe providing a break in nature or a roof garden, you know, like the one found on Facebook. The Facebook campus has this beautiful roof garden, but, you know, let's not kid ourselves. It's really still designed toward productive workforce. Right. That leads me to another topic I wanted to mention, which was meditation.

And meditation has gone through a very similar thing, right? There's meditation for the spiritual benefits and there's meditation for, you know, being happier or healthier. But then there's also meditation for being more productive. You've got the army doing a lot in meditation. And I thought that was an interesting parallel to nature, but also to tie it back in, you talked about how one of the scientists was saying that nature might be a better option for a lot of us than meditation because meditation so many of us give up on. Yeah, I thought that was really interesting. This was from a psychologist at Pennsylvania State. And he said we can get a

lot of great benefits from meditation. I mean, this has been well proven. I mean, there's a ton of neuroscience on this. The problem is really the stick-to-itiveness, the adherence. And meditation is also something you have to learn. And not everyone gets there. You know, I find meditation to be challenging. I feel like my, you know, my brain is always churning a million miles a minute. And yet, when I just go for a walk, you know, eventually, maybe not right away, but after 20 or 30 minutes. Seven or eight days straight, your mind starts to quiet down. Exactly. Oh, that's my mind, I guess. But,

but I also, I've discovered that there are shortcuts. So of course I like that too. I like the shortcuts. Um, there are ways that we can engage our, our minds, you know, when we're walking outside, um, that can, that can sort of help us get into that zone, you know, a little more quickly. And because now I live in a big city, I live in Washington, DC. Um, I feel like I, And because now I live in a big city, I live in Washington, D.C., I feel like I have to sort of maximize, you know, my strategies for getting the most out of the nature that I can find here. So what are some of those strategies? Some of those strategies involve, for example, trying to pay attention to my surroundings. I mean, that's kind of the overarching theme. So, yeah, so I really do take my earbuds out. Like, I don't, I'm not one of these people who will listen to a podcast, you know, while I'm on a hike. Don't listen to her people. Keep listening

to this show. Just ignore that last piece. If you're on a hike right now, put the show on pause and come back to it later. Yeah. I mean, it's, um, it's too bad. I mean, I would love to be able to multitask as much as I can. You know, I'm a working mom. I've got two kids. I have a long to-do list. It would be great. But I also know that I will get the most benefit from actually trying to hear the birds, trying to, you know, pay attention to which birds are nesting right now. I've kind of made friends with this nesting pair of hawks, you know, that hang out along the river where I walk most days. I will, you know, try to look at the fish that are jumping, you know, in the canal or in the river. I will look at the sky and notice what the clouds are doing. I often walk in the evening because I have a dog and she's got to go out before bed. And, you know, I'll sort of check in with what the moon is doing. Like there are just little elements of nature that I can kind of cue into that I find just kind of put me in this more relaxed, restorative state, you know, pretty quickly. We all know that genuine self-compassion and self-love are absolutely crucial in the quest for healing, transformation, and everyday growth. But what if we struggle to get there? One of the

most powerful yet effortless ways to settle our nervous system and reconnect with our true selves is by spending quality time in nature. It's for this reason that this August, I'll be offering an in-person Awakening in the Outdoors retreat at the beautiful Kripalu Center this summer. I'll be co-teaching the retreat with Ralph De La Rosa, who's a three-time guest of the podcast, author, psychologist, meditation teacher, and friend. During these five days together, we'll enjoy hikes, outdoor meditations, art, insightful workshops, and lively discussions. Our goal is for you to walk away feeling restored with a firm awareness of new resources and a new relationship with the gifts nature holds for us. To learn more about this special retreat and sign up, go to oneyoufeed.net slash nature.

I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really Know Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk

gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Bryan Cranston

is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really No Really. Yeah, really. No really.

Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You talk about birdsong and how effective that is or how useful that is for a lot of people, and there are studies showing that it's one of the

best sounds we can listen to. It's true. Although what I also learned was it depends on the bird. Yes. So it's more melodic, you know, and sort of chirpy and happy, the bird, the more relaxed and alert we will feel. But there are some birds that are really grating, you know, the jay kind of call or the magpie. And that turns out does not have quite the same restorative effect. Yeah. And ever since I learned how smart crows are and that they can remember faces and keep grudges, their sounds have been a little bit more, are they kind of evil? Chris is saying they're evil. I don't know if they're evil. What they are is wicked smart. So now I hear their caws a little differently and they are, it reminds me of that old joke. What does the crow say when he sees a friend crossing the road?

Caw! Caw! Terrible. I'll leave it to Chris whether he wants to edit that out. So yeah, I thought the studies on birdsong were very interesting. You know, businesses and institutions are starting to use this research in some interesting ways. So, for example, British Petroleum Petrol Stations in the UK are now piping birdsong, apparently, into the restrooms, you know, of these gas stations, because they think that it will leave people with an impression of cleanliness and freshness, and then they'll go spend more money in the mini-mart. of cleanliness and freshness, and then they'll go spend more money in the mini-mart.

Interesting. Well, I wish the places we're doing it would pump birdsong into where you're getting your gas instead of a TV show or a news or all the other racket that comes out a lot of those gas pumps these days. My gas station plays classical music, and it's actually quite wonderful. That is nice. Most of my gas stations don't play anything, but there's a couple where it's like, you know, the news playing or a special show trying to get you to go in and buy different things inside. Yeah, that's definitely not relaxing. No. One of the interesting things you mentioned was that walking in nature versus walking in the city, you're likely to have less negative thoughts when you're walking in nature. There was a really interesting study that came out of Stanford a couple of years ago. And the psychologist there actually imaged people's brains. So he scanned people's brains

to find out which parts of their brains were lighting up in different environments. And so he sent a group of volunteers to walk along a city street, like a pretty busy city street for 90 minutes. And then another group to walk in a city park, but by no means a wilderness area, you know, just like a nice city park. It's a Stanford dish, you know, outside of Palo Alto. And what he found was that in the nature walkers, but not in the city walkers, a part of the brain, the activation became reduced. There was less activation in this part of the prefrontal cortex called the subgenual prefrontal cortex. And it's actually a part of the brain that is associated

with ruminative thought or negative thinking. And then we know that that part of the brain is kind of the worry box. It's the part of the brain associated with depression, actually. And so I thought it was so interesting that it was after walking in nature that that part of the brain really calmed down. But of course, I think the fascinating question, and we don't really know the answer to this yet, is, well, if there's less activation in that part of the brain, where is that activation going instead? And the theories to that are, well, maybe it's going to parts of the brain that are more

associated with things like long-term thinking, empathy, compassion, you know, self-concept. The things that we kind of, when we really can space out for long periods of time away from technology, you know, we start thinking about our goals and our dreams and who we are. You know, those are the kinds of big questions that I think so few of us really have the time to kind of tackle anymore. Yeah, it was interesting. Some of the studies in the book talk about, you know, the benefits of walking with others. And then there's lots of quotes in the book. You're, again, referencing lots of great thinkers, Plato and Nietzsche and lots of other people about how walking alone is where they get so many of their ideas. And so you kind of talk

about the benefits of doing each of those things. Yes, exactly. I mean, we know that when we're outdoors with other people, we can really strengthen those bonds, the social bonds, the bonds of friendship. I know, we know when my family is outside, my kids get along with each other better. I think, you know, we all have this shared experience. You know, it can be a really beautiful thing to actually be outside with friends or family. But at the same time, I know for myself, there are times when I really just crave the solitude and I really need it because I'm working out issues with my work or issues with my personal life. I need the time to kind of zone out and not have an agenda. And of course, there's a long tradition, right, of rites of passage, people having vision quests, solo fasting. I mean, there's a long, long spiritual tradition of this. And I think we'd be smart to kind of reconsider that, you know,

in this kind of frenetic, crazy life that we all live now. Yeah, my son recently went on a couple week outdoor trip and part of it was a solo thing. So I think it was definitely very interesting and useful for him. What did he get out of it? That's a great question. Maybe we should call him and ask him because I can't remember. But it made an impression on him. It made an impression. I think what he was struck by was how much harder it was than he thought it was going to be. Not necessarily the being alone. It was, I think it was being in the woods for that long. They got rained on an awful lot. And so I think that was a somewhat sobering experience. No, I thought he really liked it. He loves to be outdoors. So. And I, you know, I think we just

don't turn off our phones anymore and there are tremendous benefits from that. So I think, you know, one of the questions when we look at the benefits of nature, how much of it is really attributed to nature itself and how much of it is attributed to sort of being away, you know, from the things that kind of stress us out. And I'm not sure the answer to that is necessarily important, but I do think it's an interesting question. Yeah, it's probably some of both. I think people way before we had cell phones and all that have been talking about the beneficial effects of nature. You know, a lot of the people you're quoting in the book were, you know, writing hundreds of years ago

in some cases and were getting the benefits of nature. So it's probably some of both. I think that's right. There were a couple different theories that you mentioned about how nature might help us. But one of them that I was really intrigued by was attention restoration theory. The general idea there, you can correct me if I'm wrong, and then add on to it was that a lot of our sense of mental unease comes from the fact that we've kind of worn out our frontal cortex or our executive thinking. And that's what makes us feel bad. And that by going into nature, it gives that part of the brain a rest. And that's one of the reasons why it feels so good to us. Yeah, I think that that theory really has a lot of traction. And it was developed by a couple, Rachel and Stephen Kaplan at the University of Michigan in the 1970s. So again,

long before there were cell phones, long before there was an internet, you know, there was still a sense that our daily modern lives are fast-paced and frenetic. And, you know, our to-do lists are very long. We're constantly working on tasks. We're constantly responding, you know, to external stimuli. We have a lot of information coming at us and when we do that it it it makes us tired it fatigues our frontal cortex and we get a little bit grumpy even if we don't realize it we're just on some level kind of overtaxed and when we go outside the theory is that our attention is drawn kind of involuntarily just toward things that are beautiful. We may notice a butterfly or we may notice a sunset.

So our attention is gathered away, but it's not a demanding kind of attention. It's just this kind of slower-paced fascination. We have this sort of fascination. And when that happens, our frontal cortex actually relaxes. It deactivates. And this has been shown in some of these brain scans as well. Our frontal cortex deactivates. And so when we go back to the office or when we go back to work, we actually feel refreshed. It's kind of this reset button. Yeah, that theory makes a lot of sense to me, too, because as we were talking about, you know, I talk all the time about like when I check my

phone a lot every day, I can't really explain what it is, but I feel like it has some negative effect on me that I can't quite put my finger on exactly what it is. But I think fatigue is a good word for it. Mental fatigue kind of feels like what that is. Yeah, I think there's just this certain amount of, you know, just kind of strain. You know, that, oh, God, here we go again. Somebody wants something from me or I have to respond to something. That your time isn't totally your own and your mind isn't allowed to kind of wander on its natural path. I know, I mean, my kids go off to summer camp and they're teenagers. So they leave their phones behind.

And this really causes a lot of anxiety at first, to not have their phones. But I asked them how they felt about it when they got back, and they were gone for weeks. And especially my son said, oh my God, it was so great not to have my phone. I just didn't feel like I had to be beholden to it, you know, in a way that we all are just 24-7. Yeah. Yep. I definitely agree. I'm going on a silent retreat here in the not-too-distant future, and I'm looking greatly forward to not having the phone or, frankly, any kind of stimulation. Although, about halfway through, I'm sure I will be singing a different tune. I'll be like, give me anything, a fortune cookie to read.

I'll take a fortune cookie. Right. The graffiti on the wall, something. Truly. I mean, I remember when I did one of these before I'd stand there by the message board, reading them. You're just so used to having something that we put in our brain. And when you take everything away, boy, it's, it's, uh, it's an interesting experience. It's true. We're just not used to that level of kind of low stimulation. I think it makes it a little crazy. Yeah.

But when you're in nature, see, that's not what happens. When you're in nature, there actually is a lot of stimulation. There's a lot to draw our interest. Like it's coming at us at a sort of more human pace, right? It's the pace of walking or it's the pace of, you know, lying in the grass and looking up at the sky. It's really the pace that our brains evolve to travel in. So there are some recommendations that come out from this about the amount of time we should spend in nature. Obviously, more is better, but what did you learn about how often we should aim

for? Yeah, I'm so fascinated by that dose question. And I think a lot of people have it, especially in the Western world. It's like, okay, so what's my prescription? You know, how much time do I need to spend? And there have been some really interesting studies in that area. And it looks like there is kind of a dose curve. So there are effects, actually, positive benefits from just looking out your window for 10 seconds or two seconds at a green patch of, you know, grass or a tree. If we take a micro break by looking at greenery, we can actually have a slightly better working memory, slightly better attentional focus when we go back to what we're doing. But of course, the greater emotional benefits and psychological

benefits really come from a deeper immersion. And I was so interested to talk to researchers in Finland, because in Finland, suicide rates are up, depression is up, alcoholism is up. And so they're very interested in trying to prevent some of those things. And they have come up with a very specific recommendation, which is that to prevent depression, people need a minimum of five hours a month in the woods. And of course, that's what they have. They have woods all over Finland. It's not necessarily a place where you'd learn a lot about canyons or deserts. That ends up being about 30 or 40 minutes twice a week. And they say, you know, if you can do 10 hours a month, it's better. But if you can

do five hours a month or those 30 to 40 minutes twice a week, you'll actually go a long way towards preventing depression. So that was so specific. I thought that was kind of interesting. I work by a place that has like a pond, one of those almost corporate ponds, right? But it's got beautiful trees and it's a nice pond and there's birds. I'm like, does this count? You know, there's a road next to it, but I know that it, you know, for me it does count because I definitely can tell the benefit of, you know, making myself go out there for 15 or 20 minutes. It's way better than nothing, which is kind of what we always talk about on this show, that a little bit of something is better than a lot of nothing. So if you're not going to do five hours, do five minutes, but anything helps. Well, it's true. And from the Japan studies, we know that even 15 minutes,

you know, will reduce your blood pressure and improve your mood. So, you know, that's huge. 15 minutes actually can kind of reset your mood for the whole day. But I think, you know, when you say for you, you know, what makes you feel good, I think that that's a key to sort of acknowledge that there's going to be a lot of individual variation. And I think that there are times in our lives or times in our week when we're more stressed out and we need a bigger dose of it. So again, I think it just comes back to sort of paying attention to your own kind of mental state in your emotional state and how you feel. You know, you may know that, oh man, you really need to go look at the ocean. You know, that's what's going to make you feel good. Whereas for someone else, you know, the ocean might kind of make them feel anxious. You know, they don't

like all that open space. So know what you like, know where your emotional state is, and then, you know, try to make it happen because the rewards will be worth it. Yep. As Chris sits here and pets his dog while we talk, it makes me wonder how animals fit into the nature piece. I mean, we know they make us feel better, but I just, it was kind of struck me when we were talking about the natural world. Yeah, absolutely. I'm with them on that. You know, Ed Wilson, the Harvard biologist or entomologist talks a lot about biophilia. And I talk about that quite a bit in my book, that, you know, our brains evolved in nature, that we have this innate affiliation with other living creatures, other living plants, for example. And in wildlife, certainly, we do have

this kind of compulsion, I think, to have a connection to other living creatures. And a dog certainly can release oxytocin in us when we make eye contact with a dog. We know that petting a dog releases happy hormones, can also lower our blood pressure. So absolutely, my dog is absolutely a therapy dog. And I'm so fortunate and grateful I have her. I cannot imagine what a basket case, Chris, would be without these dogs. Me too, actually. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show. I, like you, I loved being able to put some of the science to things I already know. I love when science, what we're learning now matches kind of what we either intuitively know or what we've learned from poets or spiritual teachers. When all that

comes together, I always, it makes me feel doubly sure about the value. I agree. Thanks so much for having me. Okay. Take care. Thank you. Bye. Bye. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a monthly donation to support the One You Feed podcast. When you join our membership community with this monthly pledge, you get lots of exclusive members-only benefits. It's our way of saying thank you for your support. Now, we are so grateful for the members of our community. We wouldn't be able to do what we do without their support, and we don't take a single dollar for granted. We wouldn't be able to do what we do without their support, and we don't take a single dollar for granted. To learn more, make a donation at any level, and become a member of the One You Feed community, go to OneYouFeed.net slash join.

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