The Oprah Podcast - Mara Brock Akil’s New Novel About Betrayal, Shame & Redemption with Oprah

Episode Date: June 30, 2026

Subscribe: https://www.youtube.com/@Oprah?sub_confirmation=1 Mara Brock Akil is one of the most influential storytellers of our time. Best known for iconic television series like Girlfriends, Being Mary Jane and the newest Netflix hit Forever, she continues to capture relatable stories that celebrate women's lives. Now, she's bringing her storytelling to the page with her debut novel, The Revelation of Dionne Daphne. The story follows Dionne Daphne, a successful beauty editor whose carefully curated life begins to unravel after a devastating revelation from her former boyfriend forces her to confront painful truths buried deep in her past. In this conversation with Oprah, Mara dives into the themes woven throughout the novel like overcoming shame, confronting childhood wounds and how returning to the places that broke us can sometimes create a new path forward. She also opens up about why this story was deeply personal and why it's the one she needed to tell now. Plus we hear from readers, including Oprah's daughter-girl Thando, who couldn't put the book down and others who found themselves in the story. BUY THE BOOK! The Revelation of Dionne Daphne https://www.amazon.com/dp/059359777X?lv=shuf&channelId=500&plpRedirect=mhFallback 00:00:00 - Welcome Mara Brock Akil, author of The Revelation of Dionne Daphne 00:04:30 - From TV writing to novel 00:05:48 - Mara on who this book is for 00:06:30 - Characters and plot 00:11:20 - Healing through writing 00:12:20 - Confronting abuse 00:18:00 - Mara on coping with her own abuse 00:20:50 - Thando’s reaction 00:24:50 - What we misunderstand about trust 00:30:45 - Message to women who are still silent 00:36:40 - Dionne’s partner 00:39:00 - The power of storytelling Follow Oprah Winfrey on Social: https://www.instagram.com/oprahpodcast/ https://www.facebook.com/oprahwinfrey/ Listen to the full podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/0tEVrfNp92a7lbjDe6GMLI https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-oprah-podcast/id1782960381 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Mara Brock Akekekekekekekeke is bringing her gift of storytelling to the world of fiction in her debut novel. I like when you say it. The debut novel, The Revelation of Dion Daphne. This young woman is on the train. She's on the train headed outside the city of New York because she's a shame that she has to take an HIV test. Because two nights prior, her ex of five years, tells her I have HIV and you need to go get tested. She has to write down all the names of her lovers. And at the top of the list, it's her stepfather.

Is her stepfather? I was as shocked as she was, if not more. What is so interesting for me having been a victim of sexual abuse from a very young age, nine years old, many of you watching? Nine to me, too. Nine years old, being raped at nine and then continuously sexually molested over the years by various boyfriends of my mothers and my cousins, these older men. You know, you just said the story is for everybody, but was a story also for you.

Oh, absolutely. So you have written about it in the books through Dion Daphne. Do you mind sharing what actually happened to you? I would share this. Hi there, everybody. Thanks for hanging out with us here on the Oprah podcast today. Television Luminary and creator Mara Brock Akeel. She has written, she has produced, she is directed,

over 400 episodes. Did you even know that yourself? You know, not until I had to count for the bio. I was like, really? Over 400 episodes. That's a lot of work of some of the most celebrated shows, Girlfriends, which is having its own resurgence. I know, 25 years.

25 years. And being on Netflix for five years has just garnered a whole new audience. That's right. The 16-year-olds love me, Oprah. It's like girlfriends is like, you know, the forever of their time, I guess. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay.

So there's girlfriends and there's being Mary Jane and there's the game, y'all. And her latest smash hit series for Netflix forever, forever, forever, forever, which now is we're going to have a season two. We're going to have a season two. We start rolling cameras tomorrow. Yes. That is so exciting to hear. Okay.

So you were just sharing me, share with the audience. You're walking down the street. Forever has been up on Netflix. now for... I think it was about day three or day four, and we were number one. And you know, when you think about it, he's like, number one, you're like, oh, wait a minute,

we're number one in the world. And there's all these people on the street, you know, New York is, and I was thinking, they don't know it's me. They don't know that me right now for how... They don't know, you and I'm the number one. And my little girl just was happy. She was, I was so happy.

I was walking down the street, smiling in New York, and then I think the next day got the call, the official call. But they were picking it up. They were picking it up for season two. That's so wonderful. Yeah, it was wonderful.

It was, it was, it was, it was so wonderful. I, I celebrated so much, I broke my toe. You broke your toe. Yeah, I just was dancing around my apartment and just in glee. You know, those, those private moments that are, yeah, are yours. Nothing like a broken toe memory. I have a broken toe moment. And so now Mara Brocka Kiel is bringing her,

gift of storytelling to the world of fiction in her debut novel. I like when you say it. The debut novel, The Revelation of Dion Daphne. Welcome to the Tea House, Mara Brock Akeel. Thank you for having me. I'm so overjoyed to be here. The fact that you are now diving into this whole new world of writing, or is it a new world of writing going into the novel form? It's funny. I like to say, as Maya would say, I'm an authoress now.

But it's, you know, my process is the same in terms of what I latch on to. And sometimes it comes through visions. It comes through visions. I'll see scenes. I'll see. And those are puzzle pieces. And I just put a puzzle piece here and a puzzle piece here. What was so refreshing about the book was how much I got to explore the interiority.

One of the challenges that I have in. in screenwriting is how do I not say it, not say exactly what the character or the plot or the theme is in dialogue. How, because a lot of human, in my experience, certainly for myself and my experiencing and witnessing of others, we don't really say what we really mean.

We are just really, I think that's what was fun about writing being Mary Jane because she said what she meant. Right. And why we love that character so much, yes. But I don't believe a lot of, of us do sometimes. And so how the book gave me just a great, just great bandwidth to explore interiority, which in my work in general, that's what I want, that's the legacy I want to leave, is that I have painted portraits of full humanity. And having a new canvas, a book, was just,

it was extraordinary. Had you been thinking about it for a while? I mean, I think it's a totally different art form that people think it's the same thing but a lot of novelists cannot write screenplays and a lot of screenplay writers cannot write a novel no i you know it's um i want to want to honor chelsea johns who called me what's interesting is during covid when everybody got a chance to slow down and think she reached out to me and said i believe your voice she's my editor i believe your voice would translate to the page beautifully. And it's funny enough, I had a story that I wanted to tell for a long time, and I had it in script notes for a while. I had, you know, when I build anything, I have a lot of research, a lot of notes, a lot that you never will see that informs what makes the page. And so I was

taking notes on this idea, and I knew it got shelved because who's going to buy this industry? I knew this industry was not going to buy this story. Even as prolific as I am, this was going to be a tough sell to sort of like pitch this story as a film. Oh, this is a film. But it is because I think I got to prove it in the book. Okay. As I'm reading this book, I'm like, who's going to play and who's going to play? Who do you think? I'll discuss that with you later. Okay, okay. And you said you wrote this novel with the intention of taking the reader through a story that may be familiar. Yep. One of isolation, shame,

yep. Resilience and the redemptive power of love. So who are you writing the book for? You know, I don't want to be cliche and say everyone, but anybody who wants to unload their shame. Yeah. Anybody who wants to talk about it, think about it, let go of it, that's who the book is for.

What I'm excited, though, is, as university, as that story is, the specificity of letting Dion, a young black woman in the 90s who didn't think she had a problem in the world, take us on that journey to be at the tip of the arrow, to talk about shame and her to be very brave and vulnerable, to share her story. Hopefully we'll give permission to anyone who carries any level of shame. Okay, so we don't want to get away too many spoilers to you all,

but I want you to tell us about the characters, and the plot what they're facing. No spoilers, but I think the reason why it reads like a film is because I think a lot of stories, you want to drop them in. So I drop you in the book where this young woman is on the train. On the train. Yeah.

And you know. You can do that. That's first page. Yeah, I can do that. Yeah. Guide me through this over. She's on the train. She's on the train.

She's got her look together. And she's headed to, she's headed outside the city of New York because she's ashamed that she has to take an HIV test. Because two nights prior, after having finally gotten over her man of five years and feeling like he's not coming back, it's the first night, six months after they broke up, that she's bringing home a man. And on the same night that she is having sexual relations with him. For the first time after being in this long-term relationship.

Exactly. There's a knock at the door. Yep. And it's her ex of five years. And he tells her, you know, I have HIV and you need to go get tested. And so the book takes place within the two weeks of that test. And she's on that train. And one of the homeworks.

So the book takes place within the two weeks because when she goes with the test, they say, we can't get the results for two weeks. And I'm like, wow, I remember. That was the 90s. That was the 90s. That was the longest two weeks of any. one's life is to wait for that result. And I took the test back in the day. I was a journalist. I was covering a story on World AIDS Day for the Grand Rapids Press. And, you know, this is a time

when AIDS was a gay man's disease. I'm having a, I'm as a reporter. And I remember this woman walking past me in the hall. And I thought, gosh, she's gorgeous. I shopped her. I always shop. Like, I shop too. I was like, oh, that's cute. That's cute. let me get to the press conference on time because I'm the, you know, I'm a reporter. So I'm in the back of the room and she is the woman who is telling us that she has, she's HIV positive. My jaw hit the floor, hit the floor. And that's what you were this?

This is 1990 or 1991. Yeah. Yeah. And I think 91 because it was a time. Because it was a time. And I was floored. I mean, literally, it's funny, I was at Northwestern at the time, and when I got back to school, I took an HIV test.

And one of the homeworks you have is that you have to write down all of your sexual relations. Because in case you have it, you have to go contact them. That's how we were stopping the disease at that time. Kind of like COVID, kind of remind you of that. And so Dion, I thought I'd give that to Dion, where she has to go back, her homework, and she has to write down all the names of her lovers. And so, and at the top of the list is her stepfather. Is her stepfather?

Whoa. Yes. And when that, okay, so we're going to stop there in the book, and then the rest of it is unveiled. And so in that, but that moment, it was her, so her ex, Darren is in the book, and we discover why and how he got to that place. There's her new lover. He's in the book.

and she has to figure out how to tell him. And then there's a witness. Yeah. There's, you know, one fun fact is, I don't know we get to experience this anymore that your paper gets, your paper used to be dropped off in front of your house every day at 3 a.m., 4 a.m.,

and somebody had to do that. That's right. And so I've always been fascinated by that person who drops your... Who gets up in the middle of the night to go drop off of the papers. Just Marr's fascination with who these people are and I decided to make him her witness.

This young man who has been dropping the paper at her door every night was there at the time. Yeah. And so he is the one that helps her usher through this two weeks as she turns around and faces. And the book is the two weeks. It's the countdown waiting on the results. Our listeners tell us that the podcast is resonating with you

and is serving as a bright spot in your day. That means a lot to me. So here's the thing. I would really appreciate it if you like and subscribe to the Oprah podcast on YouTube or wherever you podcast. It's just a quick tap of the subscribe button, and that way you won't miss an episode in your queue. You don't have to pay anything. I know subscribe usually means you're paying something, but this time it means you just are notified when there's something new. There are many more to come that we're excited about, so thank you for watching and listening.

Thanks for listening. break. Next, Mara Brock Akeal shares how her own childhood trauma taught her to compartmentalize parts of herself. It's also a major theme in her new novel. That's next. This episode is brought to you by Activia. You might already be eating yogurt, but not all yogurts are created equal. Activia contains over one billion probiotics per serving to survive and reach the gut alive. When it comes to gut health, Activia is the number one family doctor-recommended probiotic Yogurt brand. Choose Activia. Feel good from the inside out. Visitactivia.ca for more details. Welcome back to the Oprah podcast. I'm with award-winning writer, producer, and now debut novelist Mara Brock Akekeel.

Her page-turning new book is called The Revelation of Dion Daphne. Let's get back to it. So you shared this on Instagram. You said, through the process of writing, I unearthed a truth that became a fictional tale, the revelation of Dionne Dian Daphne and witnessing my own. healing, I experienced a revelation. And my hope is that this story offers a revelation for you, too. That's what you wrote. I did. So when I saw that, I said, were you telling this story? You know, you just said the story is for everybody, but was a story also for you, Mara, Brock Akekekele? I think we're responsible for our own healing. And I have used the power of the pen to not only tell stories and entertain, but also to heal myself. I've put myself in a lot of my characters.

Part of my ethos is I tell the truth through fiction. So there's going to be some level of real truth that I am really, I'm drawing from, and I'm grateful that I have the ability to learn how to craft it in a way that really becomes, this micro story of mine becomes a macro of what's impacting a lot of us. And I can find it through the workshop, of the story about who this book is for, why this book now. And there's just a lot of shame, I think, because even with the onset of the camera and the social media, we're hiding parts of ourselves. Absolutely. We're just hiding so much of ourselves. And actually, I think it's the thing that frees us the most. And so the writing in the book was an opportunity for me to free

myself. Well, this is, you know, what is so interesting for me having been a victim of sexual abuse from a very young age, nine years old, many of you who watch me. Nine for me, too. Yeah. nine years old and being raped at nine and then continuously sexually molested over the years by various boyfriends of my mothers and my cousins these older men and this is what I think most people don't realize is that when you see these young girls you know being very promiscuous at a young age it is usually because the sexual stimulation the sexual whatever has been turned on in such a way that they're now, you know, alert to what that means. So you have written about it in the book through Dion Daphne. Do you mind

sharing what actually happened to you? I would share this that it was a time in my life. I was from 9 to 12 that I was, that I was molested. And what was interesting to me at that time, and this is where the book comes into play is how well I managed. And I managed by one of the greatest gifts I've ever had was that's where my relationship with God truly began. That my relationship is rooted in that. And sometimes I even think about

if that had never happened, where would my relationship with God be? And so thus and such, well, it happened to me. and God loves me. So I'm supposed to do something with it. And now all these years later, I believe this is my something to do with it. The second thing that I realize

is how much you can repurposed energy. I didn't have that language at that time. Yes. But I channeled at that point my escape of my mother's choices. Like I was in the care of this person because of her and I know she did it out of love, then she was clueless too,

but at that time, I knew that I had to escape. And the best way I knew how to escape is through what my family believes in is education. So I became this amazing student, so I also became that much more undetected. Yeah, yeah. I came further and no one could kind of see, and then I put the good girl image up.

Yeah. I hid around the corners. You know, people can project onto you, and so you can allow that story to be true if they think good of you and whether you, however you feel about yourself in those quiet moments, you can then adopt that ideas of yourself

to get you through. So I think my relationship with God, my ability to understand how to alchemize that pain and energy and focus it in my grades and keep graduation and getting to the best school as my escape plan. As so many of us have done. Yes.

But here's the interesting thing about the character, Dion, in the book, when she has to go to the clinic, the AIDS clinic and take the test, as you were saying, you have to, I didn't know if this was real or not, but that she had to list all of the people she'd ever slept with in her life

beginning with the very first person. Yes. Which I thought was interesting because I thought it would be like the person, you most recently slept with. Yeah, you do. You start from, it's funny, yes, and that's what she does.

She starts from, you know, the last one she had is the guy, the one-night stand she just had. She knows it's going to be a one-night stand, but, and then her boyfriend. Yeah. And then you get to see all the other ones up there. And then at the top of the list,

and the top of the list was her stepfather. Yeah. Was her stepfather. And in the book, on page 201, the character Dion says, I knew how to compartmentalize, our nights from our days, the same way I learned to separate myself from my body. Ooh.

Yeah. I didn't know I was doing that all those years, you know, when you're performing, I don't even know if I was performing how disconnected I have been from my own body. I was so, I'm so compartmentalized. I just recently, my adult life let my food touch. I didn't realize how psychologically, You mean on your plate? Yeah, on my plate.

My food never touched. Never. You're one of those people. I am. Okay. And I didn't even know why I was doing that. These examinations of this thing, I'm like, oh my God, Marr, you're going to let your food touch? And so after you were sexually molested, did you do this too?

You learned to compartmentalize. Yes, you learn how to be the different parts of yourself fragmented, puzzle yourself out, to hide this thing, to hide this, you know, you know. I was told that if I told anyone I gave this to Dion, if I told anyone that I would be taken away from my mother. And, you know, it was just like, you know, you're a child. You don't know. You don't know what's true or not. And so, but the compartmentalization of self is in one way the victory of me,

because just like I talked about the grades, I understood how to keep my focus around my escape. plan, if that makes sense. You can hold on to the straight-A student. Meanwhile, you know, prepare yourself sometimes for the night. You mentally, physically. And it's funny about when I say the food on my plate, I started to notice my behavior.

The other thing that's really interesting about compartmentalization. You started to notice what in your behavior? Just how I keep things. separate, sometimes even friends, sometimes even like how much I try to control every environment so I can survive it. So you're doing that because you couldn't control being molested by somebody who is so much older than you. You're looking for control in so many different ways. How much older was the person than you? Oh, they were a full grown man. Yeah, full grown man. I know when you think, I know. Not a teenager, not a 20-something. When I look back at my nine-year-old self,

oh gosh. You see your nine-year-old self? You see your nine-year-old self? and your little skinny brown legs and your knobby knees. And your teeth that don't, it's going to every different direction. They're not even fully in. You just think, what a pervert. How could they even see? Yes.

You know, even, you know, when my own children became about age, you know, I took the time to cry those moments out because I thought the same thing. How could anybody touch a child at that age? And of course, we know it happens all the time. All the time. And earlier. Much earlier.

Much earlier. And for longer periods of time. But the one other thing I'd like to say about compartmentalization is memory. It's funny in my work now, we're working, I don't even like to call it flashbacks. I'm trying to articulate memory. And memory can also be very dangerous. But one of the things that is trying to get your memory back. So in the book, you'll see that Dion is trying to get her memory back.

Because a lot of times when you compartmentalize, you've got to. keep things sorted. But one of the things I love about this book, too, is that one of the things that the reason is called the revelation of Dion Daphne is that once she goes to get the AIDS test, it starts to reveal a lot of the why of the why. She's behaved the way she has. Why has she had so many lovers? Why does she, you know, behave the way that she does? And also reveals, you know, all these things about family and family connections and why every time her mother's on the phone. oh, your father wants to say hello and why she never wanted to get on the phone and all of that. Yeah, you just start to, and it looks just like, oh, I'm busy.

I'm booked and busy and I've got a promotion in my life. So she had to compartmentalize that, yes. We have to take a break. Up next, readers joined the conversation and share how Mara's book mirrored their own lives and struck a chord. Maybe for you too. That's next. In Toronto, every arrival is a statement, and nothing says it better than this. Cadillac Optic was the number one selling luxury EV in Canada for 2025.

Find your rhythm across a seamless 33-inch display and an immersive 19 speaker AKG surround audio system. This city demands agility and optic delivers with precision to make every drive extraordinary. Let's take the Cadillac. Find out more at Cadillac Canada.ca. Luxury sales claim based on S&P Global Mobility Canadian New Vehicle Total Registrations for calendar year 2025 for the Cadillac definition of luxury. Welcome back to the Oprah podcast. I'm with groundbreaking storytellers. Mara Brock Akekeel. We're talking about her debut novel, The Revelation of Dion Daphne,

and hearing from readers who share stories on how they overcame shame in their own lives. Now we're back to our conversation. So I love to read books at the same time as my daughter girl Tando does. And I gave Tando a copy of this book and she would not shut up. Hi, Tando. I'm so happy. I love that. That's why having a conversation. Yeah, being able to have a conversation about it. And we were like into. like, can you believe Dominic? Can you believe what he's?

Okay. Hi, Tondo. Hi. Hi, Maro. Hi, how are you? So tell us why you liked this book so much. Why was it a page turner for you? Page Turner.

I literally, I finished it in 24 hours. Oh, my gosh. Okay. Let me pause on that one for a second. Okay. I love that. Thank you. I'm not kidding.

Mama, am I joking? You're not joking. I said to you, I said, I'm sending it to you. Just read to page 105. And then you call me and said, I finished it. Oh, is that page you were on 105? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, okay.

Just read to page 105. Let me know, catch up with me, and then I'll continue reading with you. And then she goes, I finished it. I go, well, what? Thank you so much. Because how could you not? How could you not? I want to know what happens after the 12 days.

I got to a point where I was like, oh, I'm desperate. I need to know. And if this causes her to lose her whole, you know what, first of all, such important things. because we almost have forgotten that HIV was a thing. It was such a stigma. It was almost a death sentence. I was born in South Africa where there was an era where we lost so many people in our family.

Every single week there was somebody who has been lost to this illness because of the fear of the shame, of the stigma that it was. In your own family. Yeah. In your own family. Yeah. In my own family. in my own family, because of a stigma that it was to even go to the clinic to get those results. Exactly.

You know, to even have the courage, the courage she had to write down the list, go back to each person. You know, some people would rather live in absolute silence, die in the quiet of the night because it just takes so much to go to the place where you're revealing to anybody else that you're living with this, even when it's not your fault. This is the thing about Dion, the fact that everything was great. By all the measures and metrics of success and the way she was headed, everything was great. You look at her life and the trajectory of it and you think, oh, she's above shame. She's above an experience like this.

She's above the words, I am HIV positive, you know? And so, yeah, that overwatching, the super brilliant. Romo for me. Oh, my goodness. I've enjoyed just, thank you for that, the generosity of the reflection of it. What's interesting to me about my children play video games. There's the main character. We always talk about main character energy.

But there are all these non-player characters, right? I'm always interested in those people. And you think that they're just moving along. I'm just successful. Nothing's wrong with me. I'm above shame. let's pluck them out and let's put them, let's look at them, let's open them up, let's reveal them, let's understand them, let's understand their why.

And so that was a journey not only for me, but it was fun to then incorporate what is happening around us today. And it's interesting by HIV. You did. You did. That gas station, you did. You did. Anyway, I'm like, Dominic. Oh, no. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. What's your question? And what's your question? Tondo. Okay, the thing about this book centers around trust a lot and trust that is that revolves around her long-term relationship. Parents, these are trust, people you give trust in the grandest measure, you know. Her and her partner were doing things like going house shopping.

We're talking about rings. We're talking about so at this point, you know they're so far in their relationship that it is solid. she trusts, she trusts him without a doubt, without a question. Now, I want to know what it is that we misunderstand about trust because how? With the person that you think you know absolutely everything about, at this point, they're planning on getting married. You're like, I know him.

I know this man, you know? And for him to pull out that kind of, that surprise on her, I was as shocked as she was, if not more, the way she was avoiding even having the question, I said, girl, I know, don't even say, don't look at him. He has betrayed all of us. You know, it's interesting trust. I don't think we're really going to get to that level of idealic trust in others if we're not that to ourselves. And as much as she did all the right things, I don't believe Dion never took stock of what happened. She never faced. the storm of her life. I thought he was giving her signals all along.

Oh, he, I thought he was telling her all along. He was, but we don't want to. I don't feel that she should have been putting all of that trust in him because he was signaling, signaling to her that he was not the one. But you see what you want to see. But you see what you want to see. And this is what you and I were discussing. She had this ideal of who he was and she saw herself in the picket fence in the house.

Yes, she was, she was trusting the picture in her head, not the person in front of her. That's right. It's so many women do. They're living to the possibility. Oh, day one. They're living to the possibility. He's got the Ivy League pedigree. He's got all of that going.

They're just living to the possibility. Yes. Instead of the reality. Absolutely. I feel like that is, that is been, that is now, that is happening. And so that allows for Dion or me to have a conversation with you right now. Because to your point, are we, since. How do we trust?

And that would be the question then. How do we do that? How do we see that? If we are looking for something outside of ourselves all the time. And isn't this a movie? Didn't we say this is a movie? Come on, Netflix. It's a movie.

Ted. Come on. This is it. We're reading the book. We need the movie. Bye next year. Thank you so much. Yes.

It's a movie. And please watch my tape. Get to it. I said it's definitely a movie and I'm submitting a take for it. I'm submitting a take. Way to go. You look amazing. All right. Thanks, Soundo. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. So Marion is joining us from Florida. Marion, what was your takeaway from the book? Hi. Hi. How are you? I'm good. And this also was a page turner. I actually stayed up until like 2 a.m. because I couldn't put it down.

Wow. And I was crying because I actually felt really seen and heard, even if it is a fiction. Like, I related so much to all the details. For me, I was sexually abused at 10. I related to protecting my sister. I related to the eldest daughter, like also with the character and with what you said, like high performing, so you don't look like the typical, what people think is a victim of sexual abuse.

And also the symptoms of like your body, keeping the score and feeling it. Like, I related to her rage that would come out sometimes. And when she started unpacking, she realized a lot of her actions and how she had memory blocks were all part of it. So, like, yeah, I related so much. And my takeaways were, you never really know.

Someone can have a picture of perfect life. And oftentimes, I look back, I think that I'm so high performing because of my trauma. And I didn't realize. that until I actually OD'd and had a near-death experience. That was the catalyst for finally unpacking everything. So my takeaway was you just never know, and there are probably so many more women,

especially women of color who are in silence, yet don't look the part. Don't look the part. I think most of us don't look the part because of that thing that Mara writes about about compartmentalizing. specifically if you've hidden it from everybody. You know, the people who don't tell

have to compartmentalize in order to survive. And that becomes a part of our survival skills. And the longer you don't tell, the longer... The longer... You feel as though you don't have a right to tell. Exactly. And then it's like, okay, well, maybe your memory is wrong,

which kind of comes up in the book. First of all, I just want to say, thank you for sharing and just... And I'm sorry. I think sharing our story allows us to say, I'm sorry that you don't deserve that, but I'm also proud of you for getting yourself through that. And I think I would say that you probably facing your storm is the way through.

And that's the takeaway that I feel like the release is through it. It's not avoiding it. But I like what you said at the beginning, that reading the book, and I think this is what's going to happen, and this is what Mara has done with her work for all of the storytelling that she's done throughout the years. It makes me want to tear up, is that you make us feel seen.

And you allow, and that's what you said at the beginning of this conversation, that reading this book you feel seen, she has the same feelings that you have. She has the same emotional reactions that you've had. And what that does to all of us, when you read a book and you say, wow, I am not alone. I am not alone. I'm not alone.

And actually my question would be like, what else do we share to women who are still in that silence, right? Like, you know, who older, because I came out older too, and it feels like Dion had all the things and she was older to the women who are still kind of living that picture of perfect life. I think that's a great question. Wow, that is a great question. I think I would say to own your story even now. that is never too late to own the story. And I think that for me, my relationship with God, which we talked about, it gave me permission. If I believe that God has everything for me, then you want me to do something with this.

And maybe even just sharing your story with one other person, or I guess my case, alchemizing my own pain to share it with the world. It gives permission for other people to share theirs. It's like you sharing your story with me. It makes me feel not so nervous. You know, I'm still telling my story. You're braver than me. You're telling your full story as who you are. I get to take my pain and alchemize it through a character.

And but they gives us permission to share so we can let the weight off of us. And then I think we can begin to know who we are because some of what we've gone through will be who we are, really. You'm saying? And what parts of that experience are we going to want to adopt? that says, you know, okay, that's me. That's who I am. And then what are the parts that, you know what?

I don't like that. And my body, now that I have my body back in sync with my heart, mind, and spirit, it tells me we don't like that. And now I have to find the voice, the silence that I used that kept me trapped, use that voice to start to speak up. And I say start to do it in simple places. I mean, I literally start small. They didn't get your order right on your coffee.

Send it back. They didn't, you know, you asked for something. They didn't give it to you. Have a conversation. I'm even at work. Learning to speak up in small ways for yourself. Start small. You don't have to start with the big things is what you're saying.

Yeah. Yeah. And then you'll get to the big things. So thank you so much, Marian. Thank you so much for sharing with us today. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Yeah. Tell your friends about it. Don't you think the book is a movie? It is. Thank you. Thank you so much, Marian. Thank you, Marian. Thank you for reading it. Thank you.

After a quick break, Mara Brock Akele explains that her life's work is to help people feel seen because she's noticed so many people hide parts of themselves. Maybe that resonates with you. Stay with us. We're back with television creator and now first-time novelist Mara Brock Akele. Philip also read it. Philip read it and read the book. And Philip, hi. You have a comment and a question for Mara. Hi, Philip.

Hey, Mara. Hi, how you know. Hi, how you know? Hi, Philip. Good to see you. Good to see, too. The book is a banger. Just wanted to let you know that.

It's absolutely incredible. Like, the whole time I'm reading it, I'm like, I just want, I want a short series. Like, I don't really, I would love a movie, but a short series would be incredible. The limited series, huh? A limited series. Yes, the limited series would be really, really good because I want multiple episodes. Okay. Yeah, you're right.

I would. I actually would like to spend more time with the mom and dad and the mom and the stepfather and the home and that whole life and all of her little friends and everybody come in and I would. I would... You want a limited series now. I want multi-part series. Sorry, Ted.

Get the movie, multi-part series. Limited, limited series, okay? Yeah, we want to go on the awards circuit. Okay, yeah. Limited series, okay. Okay, what did you want to say, Phillip? Well, I really resonated with the character, Darren. I was molested as a child.

that led me to really have issues with my sexuality and accepting the fact that I was gay. So then I ended up joining a gay conversion therapy church in college. How'd that work out for you? How'd that work out for you? Wow. It was terrible, terrible. Like, I just...

Abuse on top of abuse. Right. And I got married at 21, and I'm 40 now. I just came out of the closet last year. Oh, wow. And just got a divorce this past year. Wow. So you married.

You married? I ended up marrying the leader of the gay conversion therapy church's sister. Oh, wow. Yes. Wow. Did you do that because you thought you were gay converted or you did it to try to create another facade? No, I didn't do it to create a facade like a beard. She was, she had met Mike's boyfriends.

She knew I went through the program and, you know, she saw me go from wearing flat front chino's from Express to, you know, baggy clothes and, you know, assume that I had been converted into a straight man. So she was really under that programming as well. Did you believe you had been converted into a straight man? Yes, I was honestly believed I was. I honestly believed I was converted. Now, in retrospect, I realize that my sexuality is just on a spectrum. and that I do have some attraction to women. But unfortunately, I didn't have the luxury to kind of find that out myself

because I was molested by a man. Yeah. And so in college, you know, maybe I would have explored women eventually. So I think that's why the marriage lasted as long as it did, because I did have a genuine sexual attraction to her as well. But I do skew, you know, towards men. I prefer men. Yeah.

So I wanted to ask you, so what did you think of the daring character? So I empathized with him because since I wasn't, since I wasn't being completely deceptive because I believe that I was healed and freed and, you know, I went through the program. I wonder, like, did you want to express that duality with Darren as someone who, I mean, he was, I don't want to give away the story. But, you know, thankfully, I didn't end up with HIV. And thankfully, I didn't pass it on to my partner because I did end up being unfaithful. to my wife, I wonder what is the lens that you see Darren through? I see the lens through not being honest about who we are and what we want. And I think, and first anyone...

Bottom line, it comes down to honesty. Yeah, that, you know, you can be with someone for five years, know they want to be married, know they want to spend the rest of their life with you, want to build a life with you, and you dangle little things in front of them because you want those things too, but you're not really, but he didn't want her. And I think that's a lot of investment of time,

especially in the 90s when every other article for women was your biological clock. You better get that guy. At the same time, they're telling us to be independent. So she's on a quest to find her man so she can have that baby build that life. And he didn't want that from her. And I think through the lens of, but then I've got to shout out, you know, Medell School of Journalism, why?

So that Darren, for me, I got to explore why are some of these stories that we hear in multitude, why the man, how many stories we've heard about women saying he took the best years of my life and he, I've waited five years and I've done this and I've done that. Well, I wanted to put my lens on his why and explore what a portrait of a black man would be, could be. in 1991 in New York for this successful black woman who's doing her thing and he's doing his thing and they look like the perfect couple and everybody projects onto the perfect couple

you know and so I wanted to pull that couple apart and I wanted us to see who they were and be a reflection not only of then but still now well I'm glad you saw pieces of yourself in this story you believe it should be a movie too. No, no, limited series. Limited series.

Limited part series. Limited part series. We can't wait for it. We can't wait for it. Yes. Thank you so much. Thanks, Philip. Thank you.

Thank you so much, Philip. Yeah. So this is what I so deeply appreciate you, is that you have taken this power of storytelling and helped us to see ourselves in ways that reflect back to us, our our shames and our inadequacies, but also our joys

because in the end, we feel her joy and her resolution to be more of herself. Thank you. And I think that's what watching all of your work has done for us. Thank you. I think I'd like to think I do portrait work.

And when you really do a portrait, you need to see the whole person. And I think, I know, I've been endeavoring to paint the fullest humanity of us. I feel like if America is our home, right, and we are children in this home, our image has been so distorted,

if at all, on the wall. So imagine living in a home and all the pictures on the wall are mostly of white and male or certainly not you. And when your picture is up there, it's blurred, distorted. So for me, my drive,

is to try to paint the fullness of us because we deserve our full humanity. We deserve our light and our dark and for us to figure out how to evolve on our own and then the safety of others by first being in the safety of ourselves. And so then it brings, and a lot of these things are imparted on us

and most of us spend a lot of our lives avoiding it. And then, you know, like Philip, like Marion, just at 40, just at whatever age, start to open up. imagine if we can start to think about that at a younger age or prevent it number one but maybe if we start to think about the repair that has to happen earlier how much more life and life force that's in us that we can actually get to the purpose of why we're here in the first place and so the portrait work is to see fully because one scene I have a thesis that if we're seen and we come out of the womb mommy daddy see me and it goes to it goes to schools it goes to schools it goes to to coaches, it goes to theater and plays and media, and you're never seen, then you never have to show up. So if I, and this compliment you give me, Oprah, I thank you because if people can be seen, then you're aware that you're seeing, then why am I here? Is the next question.

What am I here for? What am I supposed to do? And God will whisper. I thank you for showing us our stories through your words. Thank you. Thank you. Mara Brock Akeal. It's her first novel. It's called The Revelation of Dion Daphne, and it's available now wherever you want to buy your books. Tondo, Marianne, and Philip, thanks for reading with us and for your questions. And thank you, dear listeners, for hanging out with us. See you next time. Go well. As my daughter, Girl Tando puts it, the revelation of Dio Daphne is a page turner. You'll want to talk about it with your friends this summer.

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