The Oprah Podcast - Oprah and Gary Zukav: What Is Your Soul’s Purpose?

Episode Date: July 15, 2025

BUY THE BOOK! "The Seat of the Soul” by Gary Zukav, is published by Simon & Schuster and available wherever books are sold: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Seat-of-the-Soul/Gary-Zukav/9781476755403 "Universal Human” by Gary Zukav, is published by Simon & Schuster and available wherever books are sold: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Universal-Human/Gary-Zukav/9781982169886 In this episode of "The Oprah Podcast," Oprah reflects on the profound lessons she's learned from world renowned spiritual leader, Gary Zukav. Gary Zukav is the author of multiple New York Times best-selling books, including The Seat of the Soul. Oprah shares why the lessons she learned from Gary shifted the trajectory of her life. Oprah speaks with people across the country whose lives have also been transformed by The Seat of the Soul, including Emmy-winning dancer, actress and TV host, Julianne Hough. Oprah shares one of the most profound moments she experienced on The Oprah Winfrey Show and invites one guest who says this iconic moment helped her to cope with her own journey with grief. Oprah also follows up with a guest twenty-five years after she considered taking her own life. The Seat of the Soul Institute https://seatofthesoul.com/ Head to http://intuit.com/expert-careers for more information. Follow Oprah Winfrey on Social: https://www.instagram.com/oprahpodcast/ https://www.instagram.com/oprah/ https://www.facebook.com/oprahwinfrey/ Listen to the full podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/0tEVrfNp92a7lbjDe6GMLI https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-oprah-podcast/id1782960381 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi there. I'm glad to be with you here on the Oprah Podcast. And I think we can all feel that we're living in profoundly defining times, a lot of uncertainty, politically, socially, morally. During any kind of change or challenge in my life, I have learned to come back to the center of myself, to go inward and get closer to the source, with a capital S, of all things, and check my own internal GPS.

And a major contributor in helping me to do this is this book, The Seat of the Soul, by one of the most insightful spiritual teachers of our times. He's a New York Times bestselling author, thought leader, Gary Zukov. Now, Gary appeared on the Oprah Winfrey Show and Super Soul Sunday over 40 times. I kept inviting him back as I was expanding my own spiritual insights along with our audience. He first appeared on the Oprah Show during a time when talking about spirituality on daytime television was uncharted territory. I know you all are on all the social media platforms now and everybody's talking about the soul and about spirit and about wellness and about the light.

Well, let me just tell you, in the early 90s, this, nobody was talking about it. And you were considered, it was not a good thing to be talking about it, a lot of people felt. I got all kinds of backlash for it. People accusing me of trying to start my own church, not understanding what the word spiritual meant,

confusing spirituality with religion. So many people were, and my producers were convinced that America was not ready for a conversation about spirituality and certainly not about talking about the soul. But I always operate through my own instinct and my own intuition, and I felt deeply that the audience was ready. And I believe this because I was ready. And I always just saw myself as a surrogate for the audience. And here's how I knew. After every single show, I would sit and talk to the audience and every day without fail, somebody from some part of the country would stand up and

say, you know, I've done everything I was supposed to do. I went to school, I had two children or 2.5 children, and I have the picket fence and the cars, I have the swimming pool, I have the square footage, but I still feel empty inside. I feel like there's something more. I don't have meaning, I don't have purpose. Is this all there is?

So those of you that are older know that is that all there is, my friend, is a famous song. Well, that theme, is this all there is, would come up over and over and over. Something more, something's missing, is this it? A lot of women were sharing that with me after the show. And that's how I knew that there was a yearning to connect to something bigger,

and that bigger is the reason why we're all here. But people don't know what to call it. So let's listen to a part of my very first interview with Gary Zukov, when he explains what the soul is and why we're here. Look at it this way. Every fleet of ships that sails has a mothership. One ship that knows where all of them are going and sets the direction for all of those

ships to sail. This doesn't mean that the mothership determines what happens on each of the other ships in the fleet. Life on one of the ships might be mostly pleasant. On yet another ship, ships might be mostly pleasant. On yet another ship it might be mostly unpleasant. Now imagine the mothership is the biggest ship you can imagine. It's a city afloat, magnificent.

And now imagine that the rest of the boats, the ships are not really ships but little boats. The mothership is your soul and you are one of the little boats. The mothership knows why... That's a very nice analogy, Nellie. The mothership knows why you are in the water. You may not know all of the time. The mothership knows why you encounter storms. Your job, while you have the awesome privilege of being a little boat, is to learn

how to sail in the same direction as your mothership. Because you can choose and create anything you want, you can sail in the opposite direction if you want. That is a sure way to find rough water. But as you sail in the direction that your mothership wants to sail, your life fills with meaning and purpose and love. You are excited about being alive. You are excited about the people you are with and what you are doing. Because you're following the mothership. That's right.

Meaning is your inner compass that always aligns itself with the direction that your mothership wants to go. Okay, meaning. Meaning, your inner sense of meaning and purpose. Is, say that again. Meaning is your inner compass. Mm-hmm. Got it, got that much. And as you follow your inner sense of meaning, you are sailing in the same direction that your mothership wants you to sail.

Okay. So all the people who... Because I feel like I'm following the mothership. Yes. I do feel that. And that's a beautiful analogy. I don't know where that came from for you, but that's really good. Thank you for that. And that's a beautiful analogy. I don't know where that came from for you, but that's really good. Thank you for that. And that's wonderful for so many people who have trouble with religious terms because they feel religion has failed them for whatever reason. But what about all the people who don't feel that there is any meaning, who are lost?

Try something else. I was one of those people. I was angry, bitter, disdainful, judgmental, controlling. I think I left a few out, but that's the way I looked at the world. I was doing the things I thought I should be doing. And my life didn't have any meaning to it. And I used to think, is this all there is?

I like that song. It expresses me. There must be more to life than this. That's what a life feels like when you are not paying attention inside to what you really want to do. Maybe you are creating a business because your father wants you to. Maybe you are having a family

because your mother wanted you to. Or maybe you were having a family because everything in society says that when you get to be a certain age, that's what you're supposed to do. And you never were allowed or never felt you had the permission, or just never did, look inside yourself and ask yourself, -"What do I really want?" -"Exactly." What do I really want? That's the ultimate question. And what I now know is that we all want the same thing. Everybody wants to be able to live to the highest,

fullest expression of yourself as a human being. That's what you want. That's what I want. And what we all really want, we may find it hard to articulate, is to be authentically empowered to do that, authentic power. And Gary defines authentic power is when your personality comes to serve the energy of your soul,

when that little ship is actually following the mothership. That's the only power that lasts forever. You lose everything else. Authentic power is when you are in pursuit of the energy that your soul came to offer the planet. And when you get that, you no longer are chasing after all the wrong things. And this same conversation, one of the greatest lessons from the moment I read it, is the principle of intention.

I believe that the principle of intention, which is aligned with cause and effect, is one of the greatest spiritual principles guiding the forces of our planet. And it is behind every decision in my life now, intention. When I truly got this, everything changed for me. This is the foundational principle that rules my life. Let's listen. The resonating moment of clarification came on page 38, where you say, you're talking about karma and you say every action, every thought and every feeling is motivated by an intention. And that intention is a cause that exists as one with an effect. And if we participate in the cause, it is not possible for

us not to participate in the effect. And I took from that, that we have the world that we have created based upon our conscious and unconscious intention to do so. Is that correct? Precisely. Let's talk about cause and effect. It is the single hardest, to me it seems to be the simplest law and I think most people,

certainly the American culture is aware of do unto others as you would have them do unto you, which to me is the law of karma, simplified. And people are aware of that, but are not aware that it applies to every single aspect of your being. When I knew less, I used to think, oh well, I'll talk about her, because I don't care if she talks about me.

Because if that's all that's gonna happen, me talking about her means she's gonna talk about me back, that's okay if she talks about me, because I don't like her anyway. But it doesn't work that way. I obviously know it doesn't work that way. That it's about the energy that you put out comes back, and it comes back in its own way, but in direct proportion to what you put out.

Exactly. Here's a device that everyone's seen. When this ball swings out, you see this one? Uh-huh. Registers the effect. Now this is cause and effect. This is the cause, and that's the effect. Suppose we take these away for the moment,

and we only have two left, and we do the same thing. Now you see there's a cause, and there's an effect. There's a physical cause, and there's the same thing. Now you see there's a cause and there's an effect. There's a physical cause and there's a physical effect. Intention is what causes the effect. Intention is not physical. You can't see it. You can't weigh it or package it. You can't market it.

You can't do anything with it that the five senses can register, but intention is what causes that to happen. Here's another ball. This is the law of cause and effect. I say law because it always happens. That's what you describe. It's going to happen no matter who you are or what you do. That's right.

If there is an effect, if there is a cause, there is an effect. And the two are one. Which means nobody is beyond this law. The intention may be to be kind to a friend. The friend experiences kindness, and you experience kindness in your life. Now, suppose you have another intention.

Suppose you want to get the most that you can out of this world. Here's the intention. There's the effect. You exploit the world, and you experience being exploited. Do you see? I see. Whoever sets the intention experiences the effects of that intention. So if I intend... And you can never have an intention without an effect.

Precisely. Yes. And if someone else feels the effect, you will feel the effect. In the East, that's called karma. Here in the West, we call it the golden rule. So if I want to be kind to you, you are going to have the experience of someone with the intention of wanting to be kind to you. And I myself, in my life, am going to experience people being kind to me.

But not necessarily from the person you gave the kindness to. No, not necessarily from that person. If you want to see how you were creating in the past, look around you. Do you have loving people in your life? Then you have been loving in your life. Do you have selfish people or angry people in your life? Then look at yourself and you will see that you have had anger in your life and self-concern.

So if you are an angry person, you are going to draw to yourself angry people. You feel better being angry if you're an angry person. If you're around people who are angry, they understand you and you understand them. If you're selfish, if you're greedy, you will draw to you avaricious people because you understand one another.

You know, hell is not something that you're assigned to against your will. Hell, if you want to look at it that way, is a place that you go of your own free will. How hellish... Of your choices, of your choices. Yes. How hellish, how much of a hell can you live in than to live in a world in which no one cares for you, in which everyone wants to exploit a world in which no one cares for you, in which everyone wants to exploit you,

in which people look at you as an object? That is hell. And if you look at other people that way, that is the world that you will live in. Hmm. So, this is the way I see it. In your own private life, and in our collective lives, we experience the world's reality based on what we all intended. That's in your personal life, what you personally intended,

and collectively we have the world that we have because this is what we all intended. And understanding that principle changed my life, personally and professionally. So much so that when I first read this in the book, I called all my producers together on the Oprah show and I said, from this day forward, we're not going to produce another show. We're not going to put another thing on the air without a clarity of intention. So everybody who is coming up with your ideas for your shows, I want at the top of the page, what is your intention for the show?

And your intention has to align with my intention. Meaning I have to find some level of truth in whatever it is you are presenting so that I can sit in the seat and be clear about why I'm there and why I'm speaking and I'm not making, being a phony person. And I remember one producer saying, many weeks later, because this really threw a lot of the producers off,

like, now we got to find the guest, now we got to book the guest, now we got to have an intention for booking the guest. And he came to me and said, okay, we have Brad Pitt. And I said, what is your intention? And this was Terry Golder. Terry said, my intention is for you to sit in a chair and Brad to sit in the chair,

and for both of you all to talk to each other, and everybody's going to be very happy about it. Okay, I accept that. It's Brad Pitt. And my point is, we had the number one show in the United States for 25 years because we made the shift to lead with intention. And after every show, we'd have a conversation with the producers, gathered in my office about did we fulfill that intention and how we could make it better.

Thank you for being here, dear listener, for this episode of the Oprah Podcast. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I'm so happy to be sharing with you some of the greatest spiritual lessons I've learned from bestselling author Gary Zhukov. Coming up, I'm joined by Emmy-winning dancer, actress, and TV host Julianne Hough, who says Gary's teaching pulled her out of one of the darkest chapters of her life. We'll hear her story after a quick break. This episode of the Oprah podcast is brought to you in part by Intuit. Are you ready to do the work you were meant to do on your terms?

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Visit intuit.com slash expert to learn more or apply. That's intuit.com slash expert. Welcome back to the Oprah podcast. On this episode, I'm joined by people from around the country whose lives have been transformed by the teachings of one of the greatest spiritual thought leaders, Gary Zukov. Gary's book, The Seat of the Soul, shifted the way I live my life. I read it in 1989 and it changed everything for me. Let's get back to it. Julianne Hough, you know her as an Emmy award-winning dancer, an actress, host, producer, entrepreneur, all those things. Us dancing on stage together. I haven't seen you in a while.

Hello, joining us via Zoom. I did not know that you were a big Gary fan. I hear you read the Seed of the Soul during a chapter of your life that you call the Death Hole Pit of shit era. You got it, Ms. Winfrey. First of all, I love you. I'm so happy to see you again after our beautiful time on stage in 2020.

But yes, that was a very specific era. And I found this book, The Sea of the Soul, by Gary. And it truly was hitting the moment. It was the perfect timing. What was going on in your life, though? What was the death hole pit? Well, it was after, you know, pandemic was happening. I had gone through a divorce. I had lost my dogs. A lot of outside circumstances that were actually an activator of the unraveling of what I am now understanding to be more of my personality and reaching to that seat of my soul.

And so it was this unraveling of all these outside circumstances that I had put into place as a form of protection, as a form of these are the things that are going to keep me safe. This is the thing that I know. This is my personality. This is familiar. This is how I know I can receive love. This is how I know I can receive love, this is how I know I can, you know,

continue on in my life. And unfortunately, slash fortunately, as that started to unravel, I was in that death hole pit of shit for quite some time, just sitting there. And I think that that was truly one of the most important seasons of my life because it gave me the time, the space, and the solitude to really find the wisdom, I think, of my own soul. And this book was also one of those key liberating moments where I felt like I didn't have the words to articulate Obviously, I use my body as my language, right? Right. Um but the the words that Gary used and

Uses just made me feel like oh I get it. I understand I have been living from my personality and Trying to connect to my soul and having moments of inspiration, but the familiarity was so strong of what I felt was safe, but was actually keeping me from my purpose, my mission, my connection. You say, I know you told our producers

that Gary's book has shifted how you make decisions in all of your relationships. And then that happened to me too. How so for you? Well, I love that Gary talks about soul agreements. I think that a lot of the times, you know, you can see these outside circumstances, relationships, whether they be romantic or, you know, friendships. Working relationships, working relationships, friendships, even the way that I... Working relationships, working relationships, all of it. Working relationships, everything. And I think what I'm so grateful for now is like,

wow, this is an opportunity, this is a soul agreement, this is a moment for me to level up and learn something, not with what I can get, but what I can learn. And I see these challenges sometimes in relationships as, wow, I guess I, it's like a little game. I'm like, ooh, I guess I'm like ready to level up and I'm here to learn something. And when I look back in hindsight, I see them as the most beautiful blessings in my life versus the hardest, even though they were very challenging and probably the hardest seasons of my life. I can look back now and say like, wow, this was, this completely transformed my life and I'm so

grateful for this connection. Did it also help you have more compassion for yourself? It helped me have compassion for myself and others. I think there's also another chapter in there that talks about predator and prey. I think sometimes we can be a victim feeling like everybody's out to get me and can I just get a break? But I think when you can realize that we all play that role at some point, even with the best intentions sometimes, you can have compassion for others,

as sort of like, that's their behavior, that's not their soul, that's their personality, and also my own, you know? And like, I'm not perfect, I don't intend to be perfect, but I hope that I will have enough awareness that I can be more of an observer of my behavior, so that my soul, which I also love, which is when your personality can serve your soul, soul, which I also love, which is when your personality can serve your soul. And that's the highest embodiment of like, of yeah, your true authentic power. Authentic power. That's the greatest lesson. That is the greatest.

That was my great takeaway. Was that yours too? Yes. Absolutely my takeaway. And it's so incredible when you can feel it. You know, and I think, you know, when we were on tour together, I felt like I was tapping into my soul's purpose, my soul's mission with kinergy. And I think because of these outside circumstances, I didn't have, I didn't build my muscle enough to feel that strength in order to hold that. And so I went

into familiar for a little while. And now, again, with those opportunities and that time to sit in that death hole pit of shit. You know, it gives you that time to build and to grow that muscle and to trust. And I think that was the hardest lesson for me was to actually trust that I was worthy, that my soul's mission and my dharma was worthy enough to be seen. And so,

yeah, I think now I feel like, as you mentioned, I host, I produce, I dance. Yeah, all those things. They're all my personality, but they are here to serve really, truly this next shift in bigger purpose of my life. Yes. May I say, I'm so sorry that you had to sit in the death pit of, you know what? And I'm really sorry to hear about your dogs killed by coyotes. I know.

I know. I live in California and it's like we never let Sadie out by herself. It's just like watching a child all the time. Yes. Absolutely. And again, you know, those were really, really hard times. And coyotes are walking around in broad daylight in the middle of the day now. Or park, you know? Yes. Going to the grocery store. Yeah. Yes. They? Yes. Go in the grocery store, yeah.

Yes, they're out. Thank you so much for talking to us. Thank you. Of course. Mwah. Mwah. Thank you. Sending you love.

Chef Todd Anderson is joining us from Southern California. Todd, I hear you're a new Zhukov listener and that you listened to the audio book of Seed of the Soul for the first time just three Months ago. How did you how did how are you just now discovering Gary Zhukov? Great question. First of all, thank you so much for having me on the show. Thank you for actually doing this podcast So I was introduced to the Seed of the Soul by my hairdresser we tend to sit down and have these amazing conversations that are building and uplifting.

And she referred me to check out the book. So without understanding what the book was about, Seat to Your Soul, I really didn't comprehend what that meant. And so I dove into the audio book. And my first aha moment was when I got to maybe chapter three. And so my entire life, I've heard people say, follow your soul, listen to your soul, let your soul guide you.

And I just didn't know what that meant. I didn't know how to connect with my soul. And so my aha moment was finding out that our personalities is disconnected or separate from our soul, and that our personality is driven by a lot of outside forces. And so as I started diving into the book and start realizing I have had moments where I felt connected to my soul

and I felt so empowered. And so that's what driven me to wanna dive into the book more. I'm on number four times listening to the audio, and it's just one of those books that are life-changing. I feel like every time I listen to it, I learn more. And it's something I just want to continue to build on top of, but it's just such an incredible book.

Okay, what is the thing that has stuck with you that you have learned? What is the major lesson? Well, you know, I've really resonated with you at the beginning of the book when you told your story about how you are a people pleaser and how you, your story when you went to I think it was Spain and it was just a quick round trip and really wasn't fulfilling. And so I've resonated with that a lot because I'm a people person, a people pleaser. And so a lot of times I'll put my goals and my family

and things to the side and say yes right away. And a good example is I had a good friend of mine reach out to me and ask me to do a cooking demo. And before I even thought about logistics or anything, I said, yes. And I tend to do this a lot. And so I get to the event- Okay, let me stop you right there.

Let me stop you right there. Let me stop you right there. Why did you immediately say yes without even thinking about it? Why did you say yes? Great question. And I think it's something that, you know, followed me through childhood that I just feel like I always have to say yes

for people to possibly, you know, so I can feel validated or feel, allow them to know that I got your back and I support you. And so I think it's just always been ingrained in me to say yes, to friends and family and people that I care about. Well, what I now do is I stop and I say, let me get back to you or give me a minute,

let me pray on it. One important thing to say is, let me get back to you, or give me a minute, let me pray on it. One important thing to say is, let me check my schedule. You, of all people, can say that. And that just gives you a moment to breathe and to separate yourself from an immediate, because you're right, you don't know the logistics, you don't know, maybe you have something else on that day, maybe you have other commitments,

maybe you are not gonna want to whenever that day comes around. But saying, you know, let me pray on it. I used to literally go pray on it. Or give me a moment and let me look at my schedule and see what I can do. Gives you a moment to decide whether intentionally you want to do this. So here's the big lesson I learned from intention that helped me cure, not cure, but certainly manage my disease to please.

Because I'm not saying that there still aren't some times that I say yes when I would rather say no, but I never say yes when I'd rather say no without thinking about it first. And I always think about what is my intention. And if my intention is to serve the other person in making them think I'm a nice person or to allow them to feel like,

feel better about me, then I don't do it. Because that's just your ego wanting itself to be fed so that the person says, oh, she's a nice person. He's a nice person. My God, you can count on him. Every time you ask for something, he's going to drop what he's doing and he's going to come to you. So what happens is I found out once you are that person, they keep coming back. They keep coming back because your intention was directly sending the message to them that, oh, I'm the guy you can call on and I'm going to immediately say yes. And when you are that guy, you always get called on. So you have to think about,

I now do not leave my house without thinking about what is the reason I'm going to do it? Am I actually going to be able to be of service? Is it going to mean something to me? Or am I just doing it to please the other person? Well said. And I started to, through the book, I started to be able to look back on these patterns and realize that a lot of times I had resentment when I did these things when I got there.

You do. You do. You have resentment, which defies the whole reason for doing it, because then that resentment that you're feeling is gonna come back to you in another form. You resent it because you did it for the wrong reason. That is the most important reason to look at

what is the pure intention, so that you do it out of respect for the other person. You genuinely do wanna help the other person, You genuinely do want to help the other person and you're going to sacrifice your own time to do it. And because you actually want to do it. But if you do it for any other reason, you will end up resenting it. How many times have you been at an event where you just go, I don't even know. I don't even know what I'm doing here. I don't even know. Too many. Too many to count. What in the world am I doing here?

Right? Understand. And so the book just really helped me see that the separation between my personality and my soul. And, you know, I wanted to ask you, so I'll go through the audiobook and I'll come out sharp and for two weeks, you know, I'll have intent with everything that I do, but it slowly starts to drift away. And so I will go back to the book and it'll drift away. And so my question to you, you were 25 years ago and you're still holding, you know, true to your direction. How do you maintain, you know, once you get into the groove or not, people pleasing and stay close to your attention? Because my personality is strong. I haven't been able to get my personality in line with my soul. So how do you maintain that? Well, here's the thing. You have to be able to answer the question

and you're not going to be able to do it here now. But here's the question. You have to be able to answer the question, and you're not gonna be able to do it here now, but here's the question I want you to think about, Todd. Why are you really here? Why are you really here? What is the reason for the life of this human incarnated in the flesh as chef description of what you do, Todd Anderson. What is the reason for that?

And be about the business of serving that reason and that reason only. That is why you're here. I don't know what that answer is, but let every step you take move you into the direction of what that answer is. So there is a thread that connects the dots of all of our lives. For me, that thread is inspiration. Since I was a little girl speaking in the church, Cosiesco, Mississippi, people were saying

to my grandmother, had he made that girl as a talking child, that child sure can talk. So I have used my voice as a form of inspiration and inspiring people since I can remember knowing how to speak For you, maybe it would be food since you are chef using food as a form of an offering and a gift to people letting people see and feel your Spirit your love your kindness your grace through through through your through your food Whatever that is that you've come to serve and be of service to, let every step only move you in the direction of that.

And all the other stuff is other people's stuff. Be very clear about why you are here and what it is your mission to do, and don't allow yourself to be taken off the course in other people's business, in other people's thoughts, in other people's stuff. That's what I would say. That's how I stay on course for myself.

Understood. And thank you for that. And I think something I struggle with is, I understand this, but my personality sometime may put guilt on me. And I know that that is, you know, of the outer realm that I can't control, but making me feel selfish for putting myself first or putting my business or my family first. And, you know, sometimes I struggle with, you know, feeling,

you know. Well, that is just because you've been taught to believe that you're supposed to put yourself Behind everyone else the real truth is you're supposed to put yourself first so that your cup runneth over and you then have Enough to give to everybody else. You're not supposed to be giving from your point of dearth You're supposed to be giving from your point of dearth. You're supposed to be giving from your point of abundance and that is You will get that with the more you practice it, you know, it took me a while because You know I come from challenged, you know poverty circumstances

And so I grew up with that whole poverty Mentality and so it took me a while to doing doing the real spiritual work on myself to get to the point to know that I deserve to live in a space of abundance and the more abundant I am, the more I am willing to share that abundance with other people. Let the lessons continue for you. There are so many and you know, I could read, I've been reading that book for over 20 years, and I could read it again today and find something completely inspiring for myself.

And I know that is true as you continue the journey. Congratulations. It's so exciting the way the world opens up. That's one of my favorite lessons too. Your personality comes to serve the energy of your soul, was one of my favorite. Your intention is at one with cause and effect is my other. That's the one that guides my life.

So thank you. Understood. Thank you. Have a great day, have a great life. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Thank you.

Thank you, Chef Todd. I love that you're taking the time out of your day to join me for this episode of the Oprah Podcast. We're taking a deep dive into the spiritual lessons of Gary Zukov, bestselling author and one of the greatest thought leaders of our time. Coming up, the story of baby Ryan, whose parents appeared on the Oprah show to talk about their events grief over losing one of their newborn twins. Their conversation with Gary touched viewers all around the world. We have an update from Ryan's parents about their life now. That's coming up. Stay with us.

This episode is brought to you in part by 365 by Whole Foods Market. Summer's here and so is grilling season. 365 by Whole Foods Market has everything you need for a delicious summer cookout. From no antibiotics, average chicken thighs, and wild-caught salmon burgers, to organic salad kits, kettle chips, and zesty salsas, the 365 brand brings big flavors with great prices. The organic mustard is a summer staple in my house. Look for hundreds of yellow low-price signs throughout the store and a little insider's tip. Whole Foods Market releases new sales every Wednesday. With Welcome back to the Oprah Podcast. Gary Zucoff, the author of Seed of the Soul and many other books, has expanded my spiritual life over the decades I've known him. I know he's done that for so many of you too.

He appeared on the Oprah show nearly 40 times. But this next story about baby Ryan and his parents, grief, is one I and I know so many of the people who were viewing at the time will never forget. It will always stay with me. Baby Ryan's story is an example of a spiritual lesson around the purpose of why each soul comes to earth. If you or someone you know is experiencing grief, I'm hoping that Gary's words will serve as a healing balm for you. Let's listen.

So one of the fundamentals of Gary's work is the concept of what he calls authentic power. And he says, when the personality comes to fully serve the energy of its soul, that is authentic empowerment. The secret is alignment. When you know that you're on course and doing exactly what you're supposed to be doing, fulfilling your soul's intention,

fulfilling your heart's desire, or whatever you choose to call it, you are your most powerful. As Gary sees it, there are only two kinds of power, authentic internal power and external power. We often get the two confused. If you reach outward to make yourself feel worthy, or valuable, or lovable, or safe in the world by attempting to manipulate and control it,

that is reaching for external power, for power over what appears to be external. It's the ability to manipulate and to control those things that appear to be outside of you. For example, having a beautiful set of clothes, or a new car, or a new set of skisis or having your dreadlocks arranged in just the right way. You can be wearing sandals and a t-shirt and still be reaching for external power because that image is what you will use to try to manipulate and to control people, to make you feel worthy.

But there is another kind of power. And that kind of power can be developed as you look inward to find the holes, the emptiness, and fill it inside instead of reaching outside. And that kind of power you call authentic power. Real power, authentic power. And the difference between authentic power and external power is? There are many differences. External power comes and goes. Your stock portfolio goes up in value and down. You can win an election or lose it.

You can get a new car and be proud of it and then someone can hit it, and it's a disaster. But authentic power, you never lose. And that's what we're all seeking. That is correct. authentic power, you never lose. And that's what we're all seeking. That is correct. Well, let me put it this way. Until you develop authentic power, you continue to create painful experiences in your life. Okay, then tell me, in earthly terms, what authentic power means.

What would that feel like to be authentically empowered? You are living a life of authentic power means? Authentic power... What would that feel like to be authentically empowered? You are living a life of authentic power. Authentic power means to be excited about what you are doing, to be fulfilled and fulfilling. You forget to be angry. You forget to be frightened. You know that you are on this earth to do something, to give gifts, and that you are doing that something and giving those gifts.

You are fully engaged in the present moment. It's unbelievable. We're talking about this in the 90s on broadcast television. One of the most profound moments I ever experienced on the Oprah Show was when Gary and I spoke with a young mother and father who were suffering in their grief after the death of one of their infant twins. Let's listen to that conversation. Now we want you to meet Jodie, who says she used to be confident and empowered, felt empowered. She was the one her friends turned to for advice. But just a few months ago, Jodie endured one of the most difficult things a mother can

experience. And now she fears that she has lost her power and will never regain control over her life. Take a look. I'm 31 years old. I've been married for four years to my husband, Ira. I'm a working mom. I felt like I was in control of my life. I felt like I had authentic power in my life that I created and determined my destiny. We wanted to have another baby. Ira was dying for a little boy.

We found out that we were pregnant and we found out we were having twins and we felt like we hit the lifetime lottery. That's Spencer and that one's Ryan. We started to tell Haley that she was very lucky. There were two babies in Mommy's tummy. Fourteen weeks before my due date, I went into preterm labor and was admitted to the hospital and six hours later had an emergency C-section. Thankfully with Ira by my side, they delivered two beautiful little boys. Ryan

weighed one pound, 12 ounces, and Spencer weighed two pounds, two ounces. They had, you know, ten fingers and ten toes and just looked perfect, but they were also very tiny. On the third day after they were born, Ryan had what they call brain bleed. Another day later, they called me down from my hospital room. He was in cardiac arrest. I was sitting there watching and hoping that everything was going to be OK. But it wasn't.

Then the doctor came to me and said, we'd like to stop pumping. I told them it was okay, and we said goodbye. I let us hold him for as long as we wanted, and we said goodbye, and we cried. We buried him the next day. It was very difficult because it was a very bittersweet situation. We lost Ryan and yet Spencer was still there.

All of a sudden I went into a tailspin. I didn't have control over anything. I felt like I didn't know who I was anymore. Some of the hardest times, I think, for me, I didn't know who I was anymore. Some of the hardest times, I think, for me are when Hailey asked about Ryan. I don't have to re-explain. Ryan went to heaven. Ryan went to God.

It's hard to feel completely happy anymore. And it just seems to me like sadness and grief are so much more powerful than joy and happiness. I feel like I know what it's like to feel that power and that control over my life. But how do I get there again? How do I not let this loss and tragedy in my life take it over? So I'm going to let you try to answer that. This is a matter of perspective. The perspective of the personality or the perspective of the soul.

From the perspective of the soul, interactions between personalities are meaningful. And every soul comes into the earth school when it chooses, and every personality or soul leaves the earth school when it chooses. If you look at Ryan as a personality who lived for a few days and then encountered tragic circumstances and died, then you are looking from the point of view of a personality. If you look at Ryan as a soul, like yourself, like Ira, like Oprah, like me, like everyone on this earth, that left this earth when it chose, then you will have a different perspective. You will be able to see the gifts

that this soul offered to you during its short stay on the earth. You will reach a place in your life where you are grateful that this soul chose to be with you for however short a time. If you do not, you will live your life in anguish, thinking that a tragedy has occurred. Whenever you see your other son growing up, you will say, Ryan should be here. When he graduates from high school, you say, Ryan should have graduated.

When he finds his wife, you will say, Ryan should be getting married too. And through all of this time, you will be imposing on your other son a burden to carry, because no matter what he does or how successful he is, he will be causing mommy pain. If you look at Ryan as a soul, a great soul like yourself, who voluntarily entered the Earth school and voluntarily left it in order to be with you and to offer gifts.

Then you will begin the process of fathoming and appreciating and becoming grateful for the power of the interaction that you had with that soul. And you will be able to receive the gifts that that soul came to this earth to give you, to give Ira, to give to his siblings. And if you do not, you will continually be turning away from those gifts.

You will be denying the very wealth of wisdom and compassion that was offered to you by this soul. Well, that may be the most powerful thing I ever heard you say. That's pretty powerful. That is pretty powerful. That is pretty powerful. And I... Do you feel that his soul lives on and that somehow or some way

that we can, you know, contact that soul or feel that soul... You are feeling it right now. Every one of us feels the soul of Ryan right now at this moment. Every one of us feels the soul of Ryan. And that's really what Gary's talking about in Multicentury Perception. If you're only, if you only, in the book about Multicentury Perception, if you think it's only what you can see, then you're missing the whole point. Because every one of us saw that story, heard that, and now feel the presence of your son, who was only here for a short few days. And his own little

life, weighing one and a half pounds, has impacted, through the telling of that story, millions of people. We all feel it. What do you think? We're all feeling that right now. Are we not, Gary? We are. I am. Yeah. Well, that's nice to know. And, yes, the answer to your question is yes. Yes.

However, I would also say that to look at this soul as Ryan would be to diminish the power and scope of the presence that came into your life and chose a personality, in this case, of an infant named Ryan. In other words, the soul is a great deal more than this personality, just as you are a great deal more than the personality that you are, Ira. And if you begin to look at your interaction with Ryan as an interaction with the soul, then you will not so much have a tendency to be involved in the sentimentalism of thinking of Ryan the soul, but begin to experience the power of this soul who came

to be with you and took the form of Ryan for a few days. Wow. Well, we recently connected with Jodi, the mom there, and she wrote us an update. She said that I could share with you all here. She says, we're all doing great. Spencer is 24, almost 25. Haley is 27. And we have another son, Cooper, who is 19.

That day was an important turning point for me in my recovery of power. It really helped me put things in perspective and get my life back on track and learning to deal with the loss and sorrow. I am not sure that the show really caught the power of that moment in the way that we all felt it, like Ryan's soul was in the room with us. It was an oddly comforting feeling.

A few things I remember most, which I don't even think aired, maybe it was during a commercial break, Gary said something to the effect of, maybe Ryan Soul was meant to guide Spencer into this world and then move on from this world. I've thought about that many times. I also took to heart his advice to not burden Spencer with the loss of his twin by always

thinking or saying, well, Ryan should be doing this or that. During the times when we are celebrating Spencer, I have lived by that in our relationship with Spencer. And I think that was important. Spencer has been able to live his life as himself and not being burdened by our loss. However, I will say that I do feel he has his own loss that he has yet to really understand or deal with. Ira remembers Gary saying,

your emotions are your friends and has used that throughout his life. So I want to thank you, Jody, for sharing your update and for being so brave about telling your family story all those years ago. That was really brave to do that on national broadcast television. We have Alicia joining us via Zoom from North Carolina who saw that show. Hi, Alicia. Hi, Oprah. I hear Baby Ryan's story had a profound impact on you.

I could feel it having an impact on people around the country and the world because, you know, for me, it was always the audience was the rest of the country and everybody in that audience was so moved by that story and we could feel the presence of that little baby soul or spirit in the room. And the fact that we were talking about him, as I said, he only lived a few days and we are sharing that story with people around the world and you're one of the people who heard it.

Yes, yes. Thank you so much for having me and being able to share something that is so near and dear to my heart. A little bit of my story was back in December of 2010, December 20th, I went to the hospital so excited to have my second baby girl. I'm an only child and I just wanted my daughter to have a sister. I was so very excited and I was past my due date and I went into the hospital and I went through all the whole process of labor up until the last minute and things went bad and they went bad really quickly. And we lost our second child that early in the morning on that December 20th. And I was left just trying to make sense of it. Like, how could this happen? How could I carry her pass my due date and go through all the labor and lose her like that. And I was so very stuck and I remembered Baby Ryan.

I remembered that show. So I have gone back to that show so many times to rewatch that clip that you just played to help me understand, like, what was it? Why did she come? I know that she, we were able to donate her organs, so she helped three babies with her heart valves. Wow. So just hearing Gary Zukof's words and feeling the audience that day was so comforting. There was just something about it and I have gone there so many times to re-watch that show because it's been so helpful for me to realize that she was a soul coming through me to help and her purpose was was a soul coming through me to help, and her purpose was to help these three babies

that needed heart valves. And I don't know what other purpose she had. There's much more there, I am sure. But yes, it was, that show was just very moving and it was just so helpful for me. Wow. So this was a very definition of a full circle moment. What do you want to say to anybody who may be stuck in their grief right now? I would say it's nothing that you can just get through quickly.

It's nothing that you can just get through quickly. I would say, I like to, the term I like to use is it's three T's. It's tears, time, and talking, right? We need to talk about it and not hold things in. And time is just naturally helping us along the way. And tears, we have this gift of these tears that come out of our eyes when things are just too much for us to handle. So that's my best advice is to not try to go around it

and actually feel it. Because I think that when you go around it, you actually prolong the healing. And just feeling it and crying when you need to cry and talk about it when you need to talk about it, I find was the most helpful. Time, tears and talking. I thank you so much. I thank you so much. I thank you so much for holding that space

for Ryan in your heart. And then all those many years later, it comes back and is a balm, is a soother, is a comfort to you. Thank you so much, Alicia. So special. Thank you, Oprah. Thank you.

Thank you. Listener,. So special. Thank you, Oprah. Thank you. Thank you. Listener, I am grateful that you are here. And up next, an update on a young woman, Laura, who appeared on The Oprah Show with Gary Zuccott. Laura shared with Gary and me that she was thinking about taking her life until the universe sent her a sign to live a more meaningful existence here on earth. And she's joining us 25 years later. Stay with us. send her a sign to live a more meaningful existence here on earth. And she's joining us 25 years later.

Stay with us. This episode of the Oprah podcast is brought to you in part by Intuit. Are you ready to do the work you were meant to do on your terms? Intuit, the maker of TurboTax and QuickBooks, is expanding its best-in-class network of tax and bookkeeping professionals. They're opening doors where you can build a meaningful tax career helping clients and yourself prosper. Whether you're looking for full-time remote work, part-time flexibility, or a new chapter entirely, Intuit's expert network gives

you the support and tools to grow. You'll learn from credentialed pros, join a culture centered on human connection, and even access Intuit Academy, a free self-paced training program that helps you unlock new opportunities in the tax and bookkeeping industry. This is your invitation to impact lives and grow with a flexible tax career. Visit intuit.com slash expert to learn more or apply. That's intuit.com slash expert. Welcome back, listener. On this episode, I am so happy to be sharing the greatest lessons from one of the most profound teachers of my career and life, Gary Zukov. He's a man

who changed my internal spiritual GPS or the way I saw it. I know he's done that for so many of you too with his book, Seed of the Soul. So let's get back to it. I'll never forget another young woman who shared her story on the Oprah Winfrey Show with Gary and myself, her name is Laura. Let's listen to Laura.

This is Laura. Her soul story is a reminder that the universe is always providing us with opportunities to discover a more fulfilling life. About eight years ago, I was strolling through life, just simply going through the motions, and something happened to me that was going to change my life forever. I was a cheerleader, I was a dancer, I was an orchestra. I used to be the kind of person that was always smiling on the outside, but in actuality,

I was dying slowly inside. Since about the age of 14 is when I started feeling suicidal. I started questioning what my purpose in life was, why I was here, would it really matter if I wasn't here. I felt very empty, I felt very lonely. Deep down inside, I think I felt that my parents didn't love me, and I know now that they did, but they never told me that. At the moment that I felt the most suicidal,

I had a trip coming up with several girlfriends. Depending on the outcome of this trip, was going to decide what my life was going to be. It was gonna decide if I was gonna continue living or if I was gonna take my life. We got on the freeway and noticed sirens behind us. So we pulled into the next lane and we came to a complete stop. We looked up on the overpass and there was a man who was about to jump on the

freeway and there's only three cars that got stopped in between the exit and the overpass and I think we were one of the cars for a reason and my friend looked at me and she said don't you think this is a sign? I felt myself looking up at this man wondering if he was gonna jump or not and wanting him to live and at that point I wondered if someone felt that way about me. They did eventually talk him down and as we went underneath the overpass, I felt a very strange energy go from my head to my toe, and it felt like millions of tiny goosebumps. And I felt power in me, and it gave me the courage to continue to live.

And I knew I was never going to feel bad about myself again. I knew someone was looking over me. I think that incident happened just for me. I don't think it was anything of a coincidence. I think I'm very intuitive now. I kind of take the things that happen around me and look at them as new signs and take them as a direction of where I need to go in my life now. What a story that is. What a story that is. You know, I was just saying to Gary,

I don't believe in coincidences. I believe whenever anything happens and you are in, it happens in your presence, it's happening for a lesson for you. And what's interesting about that, for everybody else on that freeway who saw it, it happens to them for whatever reason, you know, their story. Yeah, I think everything happens for a reason.

I don't think there's anything that's bad in the world that happens to you because I think it's supposed to happen to you to teach you something along the way. If you're open to see it. Yes. Yeah. The fact that you would be stuck right there looking at that man on the bridge getting ready to jump when you'd been thinking

about doing it yourself. And it all came in the timing of that exact weekend, too. This was the night before we were going to leave for that weekend. And I think I'd been trying to find a way, and I'd been searching for something or searching for a purpose, and I wasn't really sure why I was here. And I think at that moment is when I kind of surrendered myself to the universe and realized if you only surrender yourself,

you'll realize that your life just goes into place and you find a certain harmony and a certain joy in your life. And if you can live your life with that, then you're blessed because a lot of people can't live their life with that. If you can surround yourself with a positivity bubble, kind of get all the negative thoughts out of there, nothing bad in your life happens. It's how you choose to react to them. What do you want to say to all the people who felt that she did?

I don't know because I hear this all the time and you do too on your website. People saying, I don't know what my purpose is. I think my life doesn't have any meaning. And they're obviously with all the people who are watching us around the country, somebody watching right now saying, I identify with exactly what you said.

I don't know what my purpose is. I don't know what my, what is my meaning. Is my life important to anybody? Does anybody care if I decide today I no longer want to be here? And what do you want to say to that, Gary? There are times when I wanted to take my life because my earlier life was so painful and so agonizing in so many ways and I felt so isolated.

But if I had, I would not be able to be here and say to you, you are worthy and your life has a meaning. And it is the universe that you are a part of that is a universe of consciousness and life and love. You do not need to depend upon one other or two other or six other people to love you. You are valuable as you are and what you do with that life, which is precious, beyond what we can conceive, is for you to choose in this moment. But no matter what you do, you are worthy,

you are precious, you are a creator. You're worthy because you were born. Yes, you are worthy because you are born, because you are. Laura, zooming in from South Carolina. Laura, hi. Hard to believe that was 25 years ago. What happened to you after that show? Oh my gosh, 25 years.

Well, thank you for inviting me to share today. I feel so honored to be present in this moment. 25 years ago, I was turning 25 and also starting a new job as a 911 operator. I was absolutely terrified to share such a personal story with anyone other than my own self. And I think you touched on it earlier. These weren't topics that were typically spoken about 25 years ago. So as a young woman whose friends and family had no idea this ever happened was kind of

like a piece of an onion peeling away to show what my true personality was. So I do want to thank you for allowing me to participate in that because since that show aired, it taught me a lot. It taught me that I'm braver than I ever thought I could be, and it gave me confidence to be my authentic self. So I am not really shy anymore. I say I'm a little introverted, but I am who I am not really shy anymore. I say I'm a little introverted, but I am who I am.

Take me or leave me. And I know who I am deep down, and I love that about myself. And it was so encouraging to see really heartfelt comments after the show aired from people who watched the show and also from people who knew me and didn't know that side of me. So, bearing that to the world was terrifying, but so worth it. And I feel like that was a good chapter for me and I'm living a beautiful life now. Absolutely. I couldn't be happier. I never would have imagined this. I'm so, so thrilled to hear this because you know I never, we, many of the

producers and I, you don't know what happens after the show. I did every show with the hope that it was a win-win for whoever was a participant, obviously. You coming on and being a guest for us was a win for us, but I always wanted the guests to leave with something that would also be meaningful in their lives. And I think, I didn't know how old you were, but I think, you know, in this world that we live in where everybody posts all their feelings and what their sandwich was this morning and shares everything, I think it's hard for people to understand what a courageous thing that would have been to out yourself that you were

having mental health issues. Now in the most recent years, we've been able to talk about the word trauma and about mental health and not feeling great about yourself and how it's okay not to be okay. But I'm telling you, in 98 in the 2000s, that was not the case. Yeah, no, it was very taboo. You just didn't expose yourself like that. This is before social media. There was no Facebook, like you said, discussing your feelings.

And so I guess my way of understanding who I was and feeling fulfilled was the career that I had for 16 years as a 911 operator dispatcher, eventually supervisor. I loved that job. And that is when I felt very much myself. I felt that was what my purpose was, which I had been searching for for so long, is my purpose was service. And if I could be a safe place for people who otherwise were in their worst moment,

and sometimes was the most traumatizing event they'll have in their entire life, if I could be that for somebody, that's what fulfills me. So funny enough, when I took a deferred retirement and my now second husband and I moved to the greatest place on earth, not Disneyland, but Maui, Hawaii. Yes, I would agree. When we moved there, I felt a void and I couldn't put my finger on it for a while. It was something was missing and it was that service to others that I feel so inherently as me And so then I joined the American Red Cross in the Hawaii Division

And I end up becoming funny enough a real estate agent very much removed from what I had been doing previously But I was very good I still do it and I had a mentor who even said to me, and he probably doesn't realize this is one of the best things anyone ever said to me, he said, you know, you have a gift. You have a gift. And I thought, wow, no one's ever put anything into words like that for me before. And this is just real estate like that for me before. And this is just real estate.

But for me, it was service. It had nothing to do with how it affected me. It was my service to let me be the best person I can be for the person on the other end because they deserve somebody like me. Well, you know what I think is so wonderful? What I think is so wonderful, Laura, is that you are living proof that it was a great decision not to take your life. Because look, 25 years later, you say you're happier than you've ever been, you're living your best life, you're fulfilled.

And in that moment of despair, which so many young people are struggling with mental health today, you feel like you can't go on and life doesn't get better, but you are living proof that it does. So what would you like to say to some person who's struggling in this moment? Somebody's listening to us right now in this moment, who is in that struggle.

I would, yes, I would would say I guess I learned that we have the power in ourselves to make decisions and it's up to us how we react to those decisions as well. And much like Gary says, we have responsible choices. So when you learn that you have the power within you to choose, are you going to be happy? Choose how you want to live your life. It's up to only us to make that decision to keep going. And life is built in chapters. So this chapter, you got to get through it to get to the next one. It may not be what you're looking for, but in order to find out the rest of the story, you got to get through the chapter you're in now.

Get to the next chapter. Yes. You got to stop resisting. That's what I've learned. Stop resisting what the universe is trying to provide for you. If you just allow yourself, like I said before, if you surrender to the universe and you just allow yourself to feel the moment and be intuitive and listen to yourself, you're going to get through that chapter. And what's on the next chapter could be amazing. And it is for me. I have no better life. I actually married the love of my life who knows me better than I know myself. I didn't think that was possible. So it's amazing.

Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful result. Thank you so much, Laura. Thank you so much. Great to hear from you while we were producing this episode Before I even had the chance to tell Gary that I was recording this podcast about some of his greatest teachings for me He sent me an email because that's how the universe works. I was thinking about him. He was thinking about me And I want to read part of what he wrote me because I think it's a really important message to hear during This us versus them mentality that is hurting all of us. He said our evolution requires us to love How could it be otherwise we cannot change a world that is built on manipulation and control With more of the same when we lash out against darkness

We ourselves enter the darkness. When we have no compassion for those who have no compassion, what is the difference between us and them? We need to choose love over fear. Thank you, Gary, for your timeless wisdom. Gary Zukav's books, The Seed of the Soul and his most recent Universal Human, are available anywhere you buy your books. As I expressed throughout this podcast and throughout many years of growing in my own spirituality, his works have been so helpful to me in opening up the aperture of what is possible and what is possible by following your soul's purpose here on earth and allowing your personality to become aligned with what your soul actually came here to do.

That's the goal. Thank you to my guests, Julie Ann Huff, to Todd, to Alicia and Laura. We'll talk again next week here on the Oprah Podcast. Go well, everyone. You can subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.