The Oprah Podcast - Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power

Episode Date: June 3, 2025

Subscribe: https://www.youtube.com/@Oprah PRIME MINISTER is in theaters June 13, with special AMC preview screenings featuring a live Q&A with Rt. Honorable Dame Jacinda Ardern on June 8. To Purchase A Different Kind of Power: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/744301/a-different-kind-of-power-by-jacinda-ardern/ The Right Honorable Dame Jacinda Ardern, former prime minister of New Zealand, joins The Oprah Podcast to discuss her new memoir, A Different Kind of Power which is available on June 3rd, 2025 . At age 37, Jacinda Ardern made history as the youngest female head of state in the entire world. Jacinda tells Oprah why, in an unprecedented moment for a world leader, she announced she would be using kindness as her guiding principle as prime minister of New Zealand. Jacinda Ardern also talks to Oprah about what it was like finding out she was pregnant on the eve of her election in 2017. Oprah asks the former prime minister about her international headline-making moments including taking her baby to the floor of the United Nations, leading New Zealand through the worst mass shooting in the country’s history and her quick yet widely criticized response to the COVID pandemic as well as her decision to resign. Jacinda Ardern also shares home video of personal and political moments of her time in office from the new documentary Prime Minister which premieres in theaters on June 13, 2025. Thank you to our presenting partner Lilly. Lilly’s Zepbound® (tirzepatide). Advertisement Disclaimer: Please see Indications and Safety Summary with Warnings for Zepbound® (tirzepatide) at zepbound.lilly.com/risk Follow Oprah Winfrey on Social: https://www.instagram.com/oprah/ https://www.facebook.com/oprahwinfrey/ Listen to the full podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/0tEVrfNp92a7lbjDe6GMLI https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-oprah-podcast/id1782960381 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode of the Oprah Podcast is presented by Lily. Well, hey there. Glad you're here with me on the Oprah Podcast. My guest today is the former Prime Minister of New Zealand, the right honorable Dame Jacinda Ardern. When she was only 37 years old, she made history as the youngest female head of state in the entire world, that means on the planet Earth. But what truly set her apart was her mission to lead with kindness.

If I could distill it down into one concept that we are pursuing in New Zealand, it is simple and it is this. Kindness. Her first memoir is now available and it's called A Different Kind of Power. And I highly recommend it for anybody who's thinking about leadership in your own life or been through challenging times or just living and being able to live at the utmost best,

even in the crises of your life. It's a different kind of power and being able to tap into that power is what this book is all about. And also the new documentary Prime Minister, which is so revelatory and really a thrill to watch. How do we shine a light on the humanity that I know is still there and amongst everything else? The documentary will be released exclusively in theatres on June 13th, just a week from now as we're speaking. Jacinda Ardern, welcome! Thank you, what a pleasure to be here.

It is such an honour to have you here. The treat is all mine, thank you. Well, I have to tell you, I had the, I don't even know what you call it, my first experience in New Zealand. I was filming a movie called Wrinkle in Time and we shot it in New Zealand and I wanted to go just because it was being filmed in New Zealand. And I have never experienced a world like that. It's like you're driving along and you turn a corner and you're like, oh my gosh, everything is, everything is breathtaking. It is. It is genuinely a breathtaking place. And with beautiful people too.

Just really beautiful, wonderful people. And what do you love most about being from New Zealand? The people. I do think the people, you know, and that there's something that I've missed since I've been away. But you can still spot a New Zealander when you're out in the world often. You know, little things. I'll be walking through an airport. Recently I saw someone walk past me with a piece of greenstone, a pounamu, around their neck.

And I just yelled, kia ora! And then you just hear a kia ora! Ring out back in response. You know, wherever you are in the world, there's that affinity because you come from such a special place. And everybody knows it. Everybody knows it. I did sense when I was. And everybody knows it. Everybody knows it. I did since when I was there that everybody knows that it is.

And I think appreciated. And for the most part cares for it as well. And you would have seen the natural beauty we feel. The natural beauty. I think lucky to have that. Well, and that you have more sheep than people too. And cows. And cows.

Let's not forget. But I remember seeing recently that you had planned or at least wanted to hike in New Zealand to mark your birthday. Oh yes, I'm still planning on it. But you said you couldn't find anyone to hike with. There are five million people. Who would be willing to hike with me. Who would be willing to hike with you.

I know. That is still on my bucket list. Please come back. Yes. It's a great place to hike. Do you miss it? I do. Being in Boston?

I do. I miss the people. I miss the place. But it'll always be home and I'll be back. And you'll be back. Mm-hmm. Well, I just, well, first of all, I over the years have loved book titles. I love first lines of book.

I love titles. And I think this is such a powerful title, a different kind of power. How did you come to it and what was the inspiration? It was a real process. I don't know whether I'm meant to share the iterative process. You know, one of the early titles I floated with the publisher was Run. Oh no! And they said to me, but it might convey that people should, you know, turn their back on challenging opportunities. And I said, well, that's part of the appeal for me because actually

my first instinct when faced with really, you know, huge responsibility was run. But actually I also wanted it to be a call to action, you know, to push through that, to take on the opportunity to run for elected office or whatever might come your way. But in the end decided it might be misconstrued as a jogging book and so we landed with this. And for me I think a different kind of power, I think I could go as far back as to say I really grew up with a series of character traits that over the years I believed were weaknesses.

Things that I thought would hold me back in life, a lack of confidence being a significant one. But if- Which is so shocking when I read this, you had that thing that I'm still trying to understand, and I certainly am trying to understand why you have imposter syndrome. Yeah. I was 14 years old when someone first used the term imposter syndrome and it was just like something clicked. Suddenly I had words to describe how I'd felt for every speech competition I did,

or any challenge, or I just had a bit of a seat of doubt and a fear that something might expose that I shouldn't be there. I think a lot of people have it. I know a lot of people have it. But we don't talk about it because we have that fear that if you are to articulate it, that that will be a sign of weakness, that people will lack confidence in you. You say this about your younger self, my whole short life I had grappled with the idea

that I was never quite good enough. Why do you think you felt that way? I struggled to pinpoint the origin of it. It certainly was, I mean, I had the most encouraging family. I had wonderful teachers. Not just encouraging family, I love the fact that you. Yes. I had wonderful teachers. Not just encouraging family. I love the fact that you had a father who's a policeman who

cared about people. And he believed that to fix crime, that you had to understand why the crime was happening, which is highly unusual, I would think, for a lot of police officers. Incredible role models. Incredible role models. And so when I think back, what was the source of this confidence gap?

I couldn't tell you. I think that a number of people who have talked about it often might say the same thing. It's something they identify quite early on and they can't tell you its origin. But I noticed it in our young people. And I remember as a young member of parliament going in to give a speech about leadership to a group of young women who are aged from probably about 13 to 15. And I went through an exercise with them where I said, I want you to write down your dream occupation, the thing that you, if you could do anything, would love to do with your life.

And they diligently, I saw them all thinking for a moment, writing it down. And then I said to them, now I want you to write down what you think you'll do. And you know, in a way, it was a trick question. I thought that they'd be confused by it. I thought they'd write the same thing twice. Nope, straight away, pens were picked up and they wrote down what they believed. And I asked a handful of them, okay, tell me your dream job. And one girl said to me, I'd like to be a doctor. I said, that's wonderful.

And what do you think you'll be without skipping a beat? Oh, I'll be probably a travel agent. These two vastly different occupations. And I asked her, why do you think that you'll be a travel agent? She said, I just think someone else will be better at being a doctor than I will be. And here we are, I mean, this young woman, what is it in her life at that early stage had given her that mindset that it was there? And so I do think there are more people than we know.

I do think that there are more, but I also think that you don't become what you want or what you desire, you actually become what you believe. So you lean into the thing that you most believe, which if it is being a travel agent, that's what you end up pursuing, and not the thing that you would aspire to, because you're going to lean to the thing that you most believe is possible. And perhaps this is one of the reasons why I feel so motivated to talk about and to articulate and to say out loud the thing that I think some people just don't, which is, yeah, I've had a confidence

gap my whole life. Still do. It's not something I think you can magically disappear or press away. Well, I'm only, I'm bringing it up because you bring it up in the book, obviously. And I'm also bringing it up because I have been such an admirer of yours across the sea all this time. And I just stood in awe of your leadership. Now I know what was going on behind the scenes, but I just stood in awe of your ability to stand in such grace and such power that seemed to be coming from not out here, not from what everybody expected or wanted you to say, but there was an inner strength and an inner knowingness that came from a sense of wisdom I saw in you.

So then when I read that all this time you were suffering, I'm like, how could that be true? So when you became prime minister in 2017, you said that you planned on using kindness as your guiding principle. In the face of isolationism, protectionism, racism, the simple concept of looking outwardly and beyond ourselves of kindness and collectivism

might just be as good a starting point as any. You say kindness has a power. What do you think that power is? And a strength that almost nothing else on this planet has? Well you mentioned earlier my father, you know, and actually both my parents were incredible role models and in the process of writing about childhood, one of the things that came through to me clearly, which I already knew to be true, was how influential their example was to me. My father was a policeman for 40 years before retiring.

And there were so many times when I saw him policing in the community, but we lived in a very small town for a time. And so I got to see close up him at work. And he always had, I think, that approach to policing, that he was a member of a community first and foremost. And if he was going to police successfully, he needed to build trust. And to build trust, he needed to try and bring dignity

to the work that he did. I remember one day, I was only little, I probably would have been maybe six or seven. And to get into, to walk into the little township, which I'd do every so often to go and get a bag of lollies or something, I would cut through the car park at the police station. And I remember coming through one day and seeing my dad surrounded by, what a reflection I know would, would gang members. And I, you know And I knew enough to know

that it looked like a pretty bad situation. And my dad clocked me and he told me to just keep walking. And so off I went, but then worrying the entire time about how my dad got out of that situation. That night I asked him about it, thinking that because he was so outnumbered that he must have had to have used force in some way. And he looked so disappointed at my assumption.

And I remember him saying to me, the greatest tool that I have will always be my words. And so he was someone who role modeled, I think, to me, as did my mother, the importance of communication, the importance of communication, the importance of empathy, the importance of kindness, even in such a difficult job like policing. And so I think that was probably some of the earliest examples for me of how there can be a strength and a power to kindness and empathy, which we often forget in leadership. I am so glad you're here for this very special episode of the Oprah Podcast with former Prime Minister of New Zealand Dame Jacinda Ardern.

Coming up, I asked her to take us back to the moment she found out she won her historic election at just 37 years old, becoming the youngest female head of state in the world. It was also the same moment she found out she was pregnant. We're going to find out what was going on inside her head as she managed to lead a country with a baby in her arms, a story that made international headlines. All of you moms will appreciate this coming up. Stay with us. For years and years, you're not alone, but ZepBound Terzepatide is changing what's possible when it comes to weight loss, along with diet and exercise.

Proven to help lose weight and keep it off, ZepBound is a prescription medicine for adults with obesity or some adults with overweight who also have weight-related medical problems. ZepBound should be used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity. ZepBound injection is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligrams per 0.5 milliliters in single dose pen

or single dose vial. Don't use with other tris-epidide-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if ZepBound can be used in children. Don't take ZepBound if allergic to it or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer or multiple endocrineoplasia syndrome type 2.

Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop ZEP bound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes, depression, or suicidal thoughts before scheduled procedures with anesthesia, if you're nursing, pregnant, planned to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking ZEP bound with a sapona lara or insulin may cause low blood sugar.

Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Discover the weight loss you could be bound for. Ask your healthcare provider about ZepBound or call 1-800-545-5979. Explore savings options regardless of insurance status at saveonzepbound.com. Terms and conditions apply. Now back to the episode. Welcome back to the Oprah Podcast.

It means the world to me that you take the time out of your day for my first ever conversation with former Prime Minister of New Zealand, the right Honorable Dame Jacinda Ardern. I've wanted to sit down and talk with her for so many years. I've admired her. We're discussing her new memoir, A Different Kind of Power. I love that title and the new documentary called Prime Minister, which is a deeply personal look inside her life while she was in office. At 37 years old. Wow. She became the youngest female head of state in the world and a mother at the exact same time. Double wow. Let's get back to our conversation.

So was it after you stepped into the role of prime minister or before that you'd made a decision that I'm going to do this differently than I've ever seen anybody else do it because nobody, even if they were trying to do it a little bit, ever announced that kindness is going to be my principle. Before, before, I might not have always articulated

it as kindness. You know, at first, I think when I went into politics, you know, the cut and thrust was always the bit that I struggled with. You know, we have a Westminster system in New Zealand, so it can be quite aggressive. It can be a bit of a bare pit. And I remember feeling that actually

as a thin-skinned, sensitive person, it was a hard place to be. And so originally I thought, well, to survive here I have to toughen up. But there was a politician who rightly pointed out to me that actually being sensitive is a form of empathy and that actually can be a kind of power. A different kind of power. A different kind of power. A strength, not a weakness.

And so I made a decision that, okay, then that was something I was going to hang on to. And it might not make me a successful politician, because if our markers of success in politics or in leadership are to be overly confident or to bring ego or to be brash, then maybe I wouldn't succeed. But that's OK. That's why it's so unusual to me that you are and have been such a strong leader, and particularly in the arena of politics, because I think it requires, in general,

and also specifics, we can look at different people in the world, various leaders in the world, it requires a pretty huge ego to do it. Wouldn't you say? Well, certainly that seems to be, I think, the assumption we have. And yet, I think people would also agree that politics is a hard place to be. It is a hard place to be. And so for the most part, my experience, at least

in New Zealand, was that for the most part, even when you're on different sides of the house, most part people are usually motivated to improve the place they live in, to improve the lives of the people around them. They often just have very different ideas of what that looks like. How they're going to go about doing it. And the thing that I think increasingly turns people off politics is the way that it's seen in and

You know the public domain is that people don't have their eyes on improving people's lives that they're in the politics They're in the right politics, right? But my experience is that often people sacrifice a lot to be there and most of the time most of the time It's for the right reasons. Okay, so in a different kind of power, you let us in to your internal monologue. Yes, into your internal monologue. Can you take us back to the eve of winning the election and you take that pregnancy test and that little pink line shows up. Can you take us back to that extraordinary moment?

What was going on? Well it was an extraordinary moment in a string of extraordinary moments. So I was there, we'd been in opposition for nine years so we had not been in government for a long time and so it's pretty soul-destroying to be in that situation. Your party. Your party. And so I was the deputy leader. Now in New Zealand being deputy leader does not mean you are the next in line. It means actually probably you're not too threatening. You're there as a support person to the leader. Which is where you'd always wanted to be anyway.

You love being behind the scenes. I thought I was much better suited to a role like that. But even then I found that challenging. We're seven weeks out from the election. And one day my boss and I, we receive poll numbers that say we're heading south. Things are not looking good. And my leader muses aloud to me,

maybe I should step down. And the panic alarm rings for me in my head. The idea that he's contemplating departure seven weeks out from an election. Well, I actually respect that. Well, I respect that he had that thought process. I did not appreciate it. I respect that he had the self-awareness.

Absolutely. I did not appreciate that he looked at me as the possible replacement. A week after that conversation, he came to work one day, he quit and he nominated me. And so I then found myself in the position of leading the party into an election. You knew you were going to be nominated though, right? I had a sense that he'd suggested that if anyone was going to take over that he thought it should be me.

I thought it absolutely should not. And you had said and you had done interviews saying clearly not. I'm not the one who's running these. if anyone was going to take over that he thought it should be me, I thought it absolutely should not. And you had said, and you had done interviews saying clearly not, I'm not the one who's running these. Absolutely not. Yes. And I meant it.

So you didn't want it. I did not. Yes. I did not. But there's always, you know, I think everyone can identify with that idea that sometimes you can have these dueling, you know, these dueling sentiments, these dueling values. The idea on the one hand, that lack of confidence on the other, a sense of responsibility. So the moment came that he said, well, I'm nominating you and I believe you need to step

up. It was just time for the sense of responsibility. And you were 37? I was 37, yeah. Wow. And then the election. In New Zealand we have a system a little bit similar to Germany. You don't always know on election night who has the numbers to form a government. So on election night it was not clear cut. There was one small party that held the balance of power and they decided they would negotiate

with both us and one other party. So we're in the middle of those negotiations. When I start feeling a little off. Had you missed your period? Well, that was one of the, obviously, there's a number of things that suggest maybe you should think about taking a test. I don't remember at the time them being large red flags for me, any large red flags, just feeling a bit off is how I would describe it. And a friend of mine suggested I take a test and so in the middle of negotiations to find

out whether I would be Prime Minister, I first found out I was pregnant. And you thought what? I thought you could not write this. Until you did. So I talk a lot more about, you know, how that was a bit of a surprise because having a child had been something we'd thought about, but it had not come easy to me. And so it was a real surprise. And just when it was going to be the most challenging. Yeah. Yes. I love the way was going to be the most challenging. Yeah.

Yes. I love the way the universe set you up that way. I didn't know if I loved the universe in that moment. I think I have probably natural levels of anxiety for someone who's 37 years old and 10 weeks ago did not anticipate being in this position. And who's also pregnant. Well, reading this part of the book, you're flying all over the place. I mean, just imagine going to meetings with your breast pumps. You're in the back of the car with your breast pumps tucked under your blouse.

I mean, it's like you were superwoman pumping and speaking and having meetings and making decisions. Yeah. At the time... Because you were determined that you were going to breastfeed? I was determined. I was determined. And now looking back on it, I see there were lots of reasons why I was determined. I think I saw it as a part, a series of many tests. The test of motherhood. You know, the test to prove that I was doing what I was meant to do.

But it was hard and it didn't come easy for me. And as it doesn't- The breastfeeding didn't come easy. Yeah, it didn't. And I think I had this idea in my head that eventually it's just meant to work. But it wasn't like that. And I think it's not like that for a lot of women. And one of the reasons I wanted to write about it was to just demonstrate that, you know, out there in the images that we present sometimes it may have looked like I was Wonder Woman.

It may have. But I would hate that to be the sentiment because yes, I was doing a lot and I was caring a lot but I had a support network. I had a village. I had an incredible partner who Clark traveled young Now husband who traveled with me who was our primary caregiver? And if anything I'd like to put the spotlight on that because I don't think we should have an expectation that women do everything Right you we don't we shouldn't set certainly you did it But you don't want to set up the expectation that it's like everybody can run around with their pump in the back of the car.

Absolutely. Yes. We should have an expectation that there's a village. And not to mention, not just running around, you know, with the pump in the back of the car, breastfeeding, doing all the things that are required of a world leader, having other people, the naysayers, question whether you should even have the right to be a mother and also be a world leader. And I think this is part of the reason, yeah, that you want to do it all and not be seen

to break a sweat because, you know, I was at that time only the second leader in the world to give birth in office. And so I felt a certain amount of pressure to make sure that no one could question that it impaired my ability to do the job. Because what would that then say to anyone else? You know, another leader, another politician. So you've got to prove that I can do this no matter what. Yeah.

So hide the morning sickness. Hide the fact you can't quite walk straight after birth. Just make it look like it is entirely possible to do all of those things. And with the right support you can, but it does require support. I have so much to talk about with former Prime Minister of New Zealand,

Jacinda Ardern. Stay with us. That's all coming up next. If you're an adult struggling with obesity, struggled for years and years, you're not alone. But ZepBound Terzepatide is changing what's possible when it comes to weight loss, along with diet and exercise. Proven to help lose weight and keep it off, ZepBound is a prescription medicine for adults

with obesity or some adults with overweight who also have weight-related medical problems. ZepBound should be used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity. ZepBound injection is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligrams per 0.5 milliliters in single-dose pen or single-dose vial. Don't use with other tris-epidide-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if ZepBound can be used in children. Don't take ZepBound if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer

or multiple endocrineoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop ZepBound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes, depression or suicidal thoughts before scheduled procedures with anesthesia, if you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be or taking birth control pills. Taking ZepBound with a saponolaria or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea and vomiting which can cause

dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Discover the weight loss you could be bound for. Ask your health care provider about ZEP Bound or call 1-800-545-5979. Explore savings options regardless of insurance status at saveonzepbound.com. Terms and conditions apply. Now back to the episode. Welcome back, listener. I am so grateful that you're here for this deeply personal conversation with Jacinda Ardern, who's looking back at her time as prime minister of New Zealand. You know, I have always admired the way she led her country with courage and kindness. And I'm honored to finally sit down

with her. She's talking about her new book, A Different Kind of Power, and a new documentary called Prime Minister. And then you made history in, I think it was 2018 when you brought Neve to the United Nations in New York. It was the first time in history a baby was brought to the floor of the UN General Assembly and the photos were seen all over the world. And you came out of that experience with a powerful message for women. First of all, that that was a different kind of power to be able to bring your baby to the United Nations.

And I don't even remember, I don't particularly remember thinking about the magnitude of that moment. You know, for me it was just pure logistics. Meek was four months old. I was still breastfeeding. She had to come with me. And actually the moment when she was photographed, I mean, you can tell that we're not aware we're being photographed. That is one of the more presentable photos of me. LAUGHS Because we're in the floor. It was at an event to mark the legacy of Nelson Mandela.

And so the entire floor was not full at that time. And so I didn't... The press, you couldn't see. I could just hear the clicking. Click, click, click, click, click, click. I did not think they were aimed on us. And so again, I think it was just a moment where you were getting on with what was required.

And then afterwards, afterwards was the moment that I thought, well, I guess that was a historic moment. And if there's any message I want people to take, it's that there I am with my partner. Behind me is the person who made sure that we had a bassinet for Niamh and a place to be in between time. My foreign policy advisor, she covered us

so that we could go to the president's reception. You know, I had a team. And how lucky was I? So when you came out of that, your message was both spoken and unspoken. Yeah. Yeah.

And the essence of that message was what? Yes, you can do it all, but don't do it alone. Don't expect to do it alone. Wonder Woman deserves a sidekick too. That's so powerful. That's so correct. Yes, you can do it all, but don't expect it to do it alone.

Because I didn't. That is so clarifying. And I know how lucky I was. I was lucky. And so knowing that, you know, I remember them. I've always been interested and focused on child poverty. And I put a lot of that back to, you know, observations growing up as a child.

I had a wonderful childhood, but I observed children who didn't have what I had. And then becoming a mother and experiencing having a village, I then became focused on what about all those sole parents? What about all those women who are doing this alone? How, how do they do that? And so extending paid parental leave, increasing government support for parents raising children

alone, increasing access to childcare, even giving special leave to women who experience miscarriages. All of that became part of our agenda. And that was because as a government, we really thought about what it is to be a parent in the world. It's so interesting because in the book and in the documentary, we see how your now husband, Clark, really takes on the role of super dad and steps in.

And there's a moment when people are protesting outside and like, where is he and what's happened to him? And you're like, he's raising our child. Yeah. But what an amazing example he was for setting the stage for the world to see. And I remember, we were very open about the fact that he was going to be the primary caregiver.

And I remember afterwards him sharing with me you know, we were very open about the fact that he was going to be the primary caregiver. And I remember afterwards him sharing with me that he had had a number of men who would come and almost talk to him behind a closed hand about the fact that they had been the primary caregiver too. And so the chance to spotlight that, normalize that, we will all have different seasons. And while my season was in office, his season was the opportunity to form this beautiful relationship with our daughter. And then he'll have a season,

and then I'll take on different roles. And for me, that's a beautiful partnership to have. I love the way in A Different Kind of Power, you talk about how everything in your life prepares you for, you know, stepping into this role, what you've done in the past, and you have your own agenda for things you want to accomplish while you're in office, you know, child poverty, because that's always been important to you, and mental health issues, and all the things you go in. And then there is the Christ Church mass shooting.

So all the things you want to accomplish, and you are about the business of doing that, nothing prepares you for the horrific experience of this mass shooting. So you all recall in 2019, New Zealand experienced the worst mass shooting in its history. There were 51 people who were killed at a mosque and Islamic Center and your leadership after that tragedy made headlines around the world.

I just, in reading about it, what was going on with you at that time, I mean, you don't even know how to think about something like that, how to process. But in that moment, everything that had ever happened to you in your life, imposter or not, you leaned into the most powerful space and you made decisions and navigated through that in such a way that showed us all what it means to step into your own power. How are you able to do that? I think in leadership sometimes we're presented with this idea that you have to fit a particular mold and so often parts of that mold tell you not to show emotion, not to share or show how you're feeling in any given moment.

And during the aftermath of the shooting, it was almost impossible for me not to feel deeply what had happened to our Muslim community and our country. It just wouldn't have been possible to hide that for me. And you immediately said, people who chose to be here, this is their country. Absolutely. The idea, and because this was the motivation of the person who undertook this attack, his entire motivation was to other members of our community.

Because he wanted to cause a division within... He did. He wanted to create an internal warfare. He saw New Zealand as too inclusive, too welcoming, and particularly in his mind to Muslim communities. He was not from New Zealand. He chose New Zealand for that reason. And he came to our country with the intention to try and cause division. and he came to our country with the intention to try and cause division. And in my mind, I simply reflected in the aftermath

the sentiment that I saw and I felt from New Zealanders, which was first and foremost an overwhelming sense of grief, uh, uh, anger, that someone would come and perpetrate such violence on our Muslim community, and an utter rejection of everything he represented. I had never felt more privileged to lead than I did during that period, because I saw ultimately what New Zealanders did in response to that attack and the response of our Muslim community which was deeply humbling. So when people, particularly

members of the Muslim community from around the world, comment on it, I mostly feel sadness. Shouldn't it be a given that in after experience like that, that you respond with humanity. And you're talking about the fact that a lot of people from the Muslim community wrote to you saying, thank you. We appreciate you standing with us. We appreciate you honoring our loved ones who've passed. I mean, you know what, I just thought even how you handled the difficulty of, you know, other people's customs, because

the custom of having to bury your dead immediately, and you having to figure out with yourself and the team, how do we tell this community you're not going to be able to bury your dead right away because this is now a police investigation. And these were, I mean, incredibly challenging moments that only I would have understood exactly, you know, the things the community were grappling with had I been there. And I think one of the things, one of the really important things about empathetic leadership is that you just instinctively feel like you need to be on the ground

closest and closest proximity to where the crisis has happened. So you knew immediately to wrap your head? I, you know, no one told me I needed to do that. No one counseled me. Often people ask me what about that decision. All I remember thinking was I'm going into the community space. They have just lost an incredible number of their family members and their loved ones. The least I can do is show respect in that moment.

And so all I really remember from that moment is I packed from Wellington to get ready to go to Christchurch, was calling a friend and asking if she had a scarf I could use. No one counseled me either way. It just felt like the least I could do in that moment. And then there was that famous photograph of you with the scarf, yes. And in the book, I talk a little bit about that moment because whilst a lot of the commentary was about me, when I was photographed at that time I was listening to one of the most humbling experiences, which was a leader in the Muslim community who had just watched members of his congregation been shot and he thanked New Zealand.

For me, the Muslim community led a response that humbled everyone. So a different kind of power meant that you instinctively knew that the thing to do is to go to the people where the people are hurting. Absolutely. And a different kind of power allowed you to embrace those people, the community, the Muslim community, in a way as though they were your own people, your own family, your own... I mean, it's like watching you and reading about you doing that. It's like you were a part of that community at that time.

I think in leadership, particularly in these times, there's a tendency at least to be provided with advice to avoid unpredictable situations. And there is often nothing more unpredictable than periods of crisis, but particularly where there these crisis and grief, understandably. But I have to tell you, I mean, when I was watching that on the news, I was so moved by your authenticity and your sincerity because, you know, things happen in the world.

There's a crisis, there's a shooting, there's a bombing, and leaders, they show up, they do their little drive throughthrough and run-through and have their speech, but you were in it. You were in the center of it. And I think only by being in it, and for me, in hindsight, you know, taking a bit of time to reflect, and I think the important thing about proximity is it allows you to then understand what's needed.

Empathy is nothing without action. You were in it with people crying on your shoulders, literally, in your bosom, yes. And hearing then in those moments what people needed. They'd lost, in many cases, their breadwinner. They may have had in that time, you know, a lack of sense of security around their ability to continue to reside in New Zealand. There are a whole range of issues that by having that proximity you understood and true empathy is then actually following through with action. What do you, now that you've seen it, now that you've heard it, what will you do about it?

We are here just 26 days after the most devastating of terrorist attacks in New Zealand's history. When I visited the hospitals and the victims none of them had just one gunshot wound. In every case they spoke of multiple injuries, multiple debilitating injuries. I could not fathom how weapons that could cause such destruction and large-scale death could have been obtained legally in this country. You and your administration reformed New Zealand's gun laws in ten days and in reading the book I now I can see that you were fueled by your passion came from being

amongst the community and feeling their loss in such a personal and powerful way. How did you make that happen so quickly? Yeah, in my mind, one of the beautiful things about New Zealand and New Zealand is such a pragmatic people. And every time you see crisis in New Zealand, whether or not it's a weather event or in this case, alongside the care and support you see the community provide, there's that, now what can we do? And that is reflected then in an expectation of leaders.

What will you do? Yeah. And there were two things. One was, well, first of all, we know that he was able to take the lives of so many because he had access to military-style semi-automatic weapons, particularly AR-15s. And then it begat the question, well, how was he able to get access to those? And the answer was legally. And I remember in that briefing, which was only the day after the shooting, when I received

that briefing and was told he legally obtained those weapons, you know, my immediate instinct was, well, that can't stand. And I had that strong sense that even though I had to consult with other members of parliament to get their support, I just had a sense that New Zealanders would want that to change. And so when I went down to— But he wasn't even from New Zealand. would want that to change. And so when I went down to... But he wasn't even from New Zealand. He wasn't. He was from Australia and there's a range of things that make things a bit easier when

you're from the closeness of our relationship. But he was able to legally obtain those weapons. And I think that was a shock to New Zealanders that you could so easily access weapons that were able to take the lives of so many so quickly. Because one of the things you talk about here is when you went visited people in the hospital, nobody had one gunshot. Nobody. Nobody had.

Just the range of injuries and the scale of injuries. And so I just instinctively knew, and I think MPs knew, that New Zealanders would be behind them. And they were. When they cast the vote, 119 of 120 members of parliament supported the banning of military-style semi-automatic weapons in New Zealand. And so when we passed that law, we bought them back. So people who had them, we paid for them. And then we destroyed them.

Well, what do you say that people say, well, you didn't get rid of all of them? You know, in our minds, of course, understanding that New Zealand, you know, we are hunters, we have pests. There's a number of reasons why people hold guns. But weapons like that, they're designed to take the lives of a large number of people in quick order. And in this case, they did.

And yes, you know, we still have weapons in New Zealand, but we do not routinely now have these ones. And that was, I think, an incredibly important response to this attack. And that was, I think, an incredibly important response to this attack. Well, as we were talking, no one had any expectation that you would end up in your administration during your time there serving as prime minister as the worst mass killing ever in the history of New Zealand. Also, nobody expected the pandemic. Also, nobody expected the pandemic. No. And during the pandemic, some called your COVID policy one of your greatest political legacies,

but there were also blistering critics and criticisms for it, and even people marching outside your office and death threats. You talk a lot about it here. We get inside your head. But can you briefly briefly for our audience describe what grappling with that experience was like? Because in the beginning, we were looking at, you only had like six cases in the beginning.

Yeah, we're like. I guess everyone started with a small number and that was one of the things when we looked out into the world because we were later in receiving COVID. It took a little longer to get to our shores. Our first case was the 28th of February in 2020. So we could see what was happening.

And we also knew from modeling what it would mean for our population, tens of thousands of people losing their lives. And I remember being presented with that as a leader. I talk a little bit in the book about how there's so few decisions where you can draw that direct line between your decision and life and death. But a pandemic is one of them. And one of the things that we decided to do really early on

was just share everything we knew about this illness But also completely transparent just to be transparent But also everything we didn't know and as a result of that, you know When it came to point that we made the decision that actually we need we need to close our borders and see if we can try And keep New Zealand covered free till we have another way of protecting people Well, that's just one sentence you're using to describe this but it was a process. It was a big process It moved quickly, but it was a process. It was a big process. It moved quickly, but it was a process. How do we stop this? Yeah.

We need to close our borders. Mm-hmm. But by sharing all of that, New Zealanders could see not only the decisions we were making, but the choices we had. And I think that made a difference in people, you know, supporting the course of ACO. And accepting it. Yeah. Certainly in the beginning. In the beginning.

And look, there is no question, you know, I look around the world, it was an incredibly difficult thing to govern through. So how would you describe this last week? If there is like a subterranean space that sits beneath hell. That. You know, no response was perfect. Populations around the world would have reflections

on what they believed their governments did right and what they did wrong. And after the pandemic, we put in place a royal commission, people to go and ask those questions for us. Look at how we can be better prepared next time. But I think the issue that you described so beautifully here, and you can describe it beautifully because now you've had time to sit with it.

Yes. Very well written, I must say too. Thank you. Because that one I rewrote and rewrote and rewrote because I thought I was processing it. You know, that one I rewrote and rewrote and rewrote because I thought as I was processing it, you know, I came out of COVID and it was a I had two goals and and I've talked about this a bit one was to save people's lives But the other was to keep people together and I didn't achieve both and I found that so hard I still find it hard but you save people's lives so that if they want to eventually get together they can

Yes, exactly exactly. And so it's you know, it they want to eventually get together, they can. Yes, exactly. Exactly. And so it's hard to feel upset about that. And when people say, what do you regret? I find that really simplistic because... When people started to turn on you though, Jacinda, when people started to turn... Listen, I've had people turn on me. I've heard the vitriol from the web. I've had the lies, the stories, the conspiracy theories made up.

It is so disorienting. It is. It is so... It just... It shakes your foundation because you're like, I don't even recognize who you're talking about. I absolutely agree with you. And it's one of those things that you then realize how much through your life you rely on the ability to still just communicate with someone.

And that if you can at least talk to them and you can have that dialogue, then if there is that, you know, that bizarre view that someone might have, that conspiracy theory that you think you might be able to talk that through. But you can't. You are losing sleep at night. You need sleeping pills in order to get to sleep because you were trying to make the best decision for the masses. Yeah.

I just don't understand how anyone could assume that I'm so cavalier about having a whole city and over a million people in lockdown. Of course I think about it all the time. I have to take sleeping pills, so I don't think about it all the time. I have to take sleeping pills so I don't think about it all the time. And then you get accused of, oh, it's just a power play, you're ego tripping, you're taking advantage of other people's lives, you're trying to ruin the economy on purpose.

I mean, it's... And so the only thing that you can, you know, it took me a while to get to this, but the only thing that you can hold on to in those moments is that you know what your motivation is. You know that you're just trying to make the right decisions. And even, I think, I remember my hardest moments looking out when we did have an occupation on Parliament's grounds and thinking, well, they think they're protecting people's lives too.

And so do I. We actually want for the same things. We have just come at it from completely different corners and I do spend a lot of time reflecting on it, but I still give myself as much grace as I can that we were motivated by the right things and that was to save people's lives. For all the thinking I give

to what I would have done differently, I would still rather be sitting in front of the public and explaining why perhaps we did too much rather than why we did too little. Because the doing too little was the difference between people living and people dying. Do you think too, you were talking about being completely transparent, which is another,

you're another way of you offering a different kind of power, completely transparent, which is another, you're another way of you offering a different kind of power. Completely transparent, letting people know, and now this is what is happening. This was, but I think what people weren't prepared for, okay, we locked down, we have isolated ourselves, we shut the borders, now we're gonna open up, we're celebrating, there's a big celebration, and after that, oh now we have to lock ourselves down again because now there's a different variant. I think people just got wary of the,

now there's a different variant. It was hard. And there's another variant and there's another variant. So we would only, we would use lockdowns when there were cases that we couldn't trace. So that's when we would use it. And ultimately it meant that we had fewer days in lockdown than most countries, and when we were out, we had relative normality.

And I think importantly, we saved an estimated 20,000 lives. But it came at a cost, you know, for everyone globally. I think there is globally now this unease that the way that we'd experience the world was upended. Suddenly you could have something that you just didn't see coming and it can fundamentally change your life in an instant. And we already have such a sense of uncertainty in the world, technological developments, the impact of the changing economies that we have, the multiple wars raging.

We have a sense of insecurity that the pandemic just exacerbated so much. And I think as leaders, and this is one of the things I talk about a lot, we have options in this environment now. We have the option of actually tackling the core of the difficult problems we have presented to us, which is hard. Or we have the option of blaming others, of saying that the cause of the insecurity you feel, or the financial insecurity you feel, is this group or this group. And that is a quick and easy way to do politics. And cite fear. It's the oldest trick in the book,

but it is the most harmful and the most damaging. And I talk openly about the alternatives because they exist. There are leaders who champion empathetic leadership, who actually wanna solve the problems. But what we see a spotlight more often is that alternative. And I wish so much that we can turn towards those more optimistic, hopeful, and inclusive responses to problems, rather than the fear that we see people reach to. Do you wish you were back in it so that you could offer these optimistic and hopeful?

There are other politicians, there are politicians out there and leaders out there who believe in solving those core fundamental problems rather than politicking around them. I see it. I see it. I've met them. I run a fellowship program called field to support that. Who do you most admire right now who's doing that?

Who's modeling that different kind of power? I see it at lots of different levels. I see it in leadership. I think the president of Mexico at the moment is so genuinely focused on the wellbeing of her people through difficult times. I see it in leadership. I think the president of Mexico at the moment is so genuinely focused on the wellbeing of her people through difficult times. I see it in lots of places, but I see it at new incoming MPs, MEPs. We need to shine a light on them because I think people are losing their hope in politics.

And yet there are people that they should feel hopeful about. Okay. I asked this of Jimmy Carter once. When you have the weight of the entire country on your shoulders, and you did in several instances, the weight of the entire country, and just in general as Prime Minister, the weight of the entire country on your shoulders, what is your prayer? I had certain mantras that would run through my head. And the one that was most common was just, let this be the right decision. Let's be the right decision.

And that didn't always mean the most popular decision. I could carry the weight of an unpopular decision if it felt like it was the right one. I could wear a lot if it felt like the right one, but just let it be the right thing to do. You know, one of the strengths of all of those things that I thought would hold me back of a little bit of, you know, that self-doubt was actually I would prepare. I would bring in experts. I would use people who had the knowledge and expertise to give me the best possible advice.

I would read everything I could about a challenge that was presenting itself. And then I would overlay my values and my intuition. Yeah, you knew as much about COVID as the doctors did because you were studying it every night. Yes. I was mocked for that in some cases by the people I worked with. This is sitting between me and going to sleep now, this and you. And so for me, that idea of the right decision was never just about instinct and values. It was also about...

Having the right information. Having the right information. about having the right information. And that trait of imposter syndrome drove me to lead like that. That was a strength in the end. That was a strength. Isn't that amazing how that works out in your life? It was your weakness became your strength.

Absolutely. Because you did question whether or not they're gonna question, I should be here. I'm going to make sure that I do everything exactly. And have the humility to know that you don't know all the answers and to bring in the people who might and to draw on that. That's a different kind of power to have that humility. And to say from time to time I don't know. Because it's very different than I don't have a plan. And you can lead and be open about what you know and what you don't, and actually can build trust. FDR was that kind of leader,

and he communicated so directly to people during crisis, during the depression and war times, what he knew and what he didn't know. And I think people built trust around him as a result. Who are other leaders you've admired? Well, I think, you know, when I look at the United States, I look at times of crisis. I mean, I do draw back to FDR because there was an empathy to him.

And maybe that came from personal circumstance, but it manifested in the way that he did the job. In New Zealand, we have similar political leaders. I remember as a child, our cat was named Norm, and my father named him after Prime Minister Norman Kirk. And as I grew older, I read a little bit more about him, and he was asked in a primetime interview once, you know, what, you know, his greatest achievement,

and it's such an, you know, an entree into spouting off whatever policy as a politician you might have. He said the letters that he received after they increased benefits for the most vulnerable, one letter where a woman said she could finally afford shoes, new shoes, and what a relief it was to her. And here was this moment with this Prime Minister, you know, huge stature. He was a solid man with such presence, but speaking so softly and quietly about a woman who could- Being able to now afford-

Shoes. New shoes. And it just stayed with me, the fact that he was someone running a country in an individual moment could be so meaningful to him. So I've been surrounded by great examples and perhaps it started with my parents. I love the fact that, or appreciate the fact, that when you were going through your most challenging crises, that you looked to people who was at Chackleford, who'd been through the Antarctic.

Yes. Yes. I love those Antarctic stories. Oh, amazing. Isn't that incredible? Amazing. What he was able to do and then in the end, he wanted to just save his men. When you're in politics, people always expect you to spout off all of these, your political

role models, but mine is an Antarctic explorer, you know, who actually failed multiple times. He didn't get there. He did not get there. But he saved his men. He saved his men, and he had such a humility in his leadership as well, and he had the saying that I love. We're talking about Ernest Shackleton, the explorer who led expeditions to the Antarctic,

who is a hero of yours and of mine too. And you have a mug with one of his quotes. What does it say? It says, optimism is true moral courage. And I think there are so many reasons that resonates with me. And one is that I think we treat hope and optimism often as if they're naive. And yet the way that he talks about optimism is that actually it's a courageous act and it's a deliberate decision and in the circumstances that he was in and when he's quoting lines

like this he was basically stranded in Antarctica with no hope of rescue, a sunken ship. Yeah. You just knew those men were going to die. Oh yeah. Well, and yet in that moment, what a courageous act it is to be optimistic. And without that, you know, it would have impacted, I think, their survival. It would have.

And so... At another time, you all can read that story. It's a great story. Yeah. But don't let anyone tell you naive if you're optimistic. Ew. Well, two years ago, I watched along with millions when you stepped to the podium to announce your resignation.

And so today I'm announcing that I will not be seeking re-election. Whoa, what a shock that was. I was so struck, actually, by a few things you said. The thing that got me the most was when you said, I no longer had enough in the tank to lead. I know what this job takes. And I know that I no longer have enough in the tank to do it justice. It's that simple.

And that you just knew it was time to step down. Politicians are human. We give all that we can for as long as we can, and then it's time. And for me, it's time. I understand that feeling because, you know, I had a talk show in the United States for 25 years, and it just came to me that I knew it was time to go. But it's so rare to find other people and the talk show is not like running a nation as you were doing.

And when did that feeling start to occur to you? Was it that you got worn down by COVID and all the COVID vaccine objectors. I mean, the point which I made the decision was a good year after any of that. And there was nothing particularly occurring at the time. That was what was so great about it. Yeah, as a trigger. Because it's not like she's stepping down because of COVID or she's stepping down because it's too overwhelming or she's stepping down. No.

There was no moment. There was no thing. And in fact, I knew when I came to make the announcement that people would wonder what is the one thing. And there was no one thing. Sometimes it wasn't one thing, it was everything. It was a range of different trigger points, all of which for me pointed to, am I still the leader I believe I need to be in order to do this job well?

So I felt like I was becoming a bit more defensive than I wanted to be. Oh my God. That takes a different kind of power. Do you know what it takes to have the level of self-awareness to say, I don't know if I still have it. Yeah. I thought everyone ran through that in their mind from time to time.

But certainly- People may run through it, but they keep going anyway, because they don't wanna give up the perception of power. I mean, look at what's happening in our halls of Congress now. People don't speak up because they don't wanna be primary. People don't speak up because they don't want to be primary.

They don't want to lose what they perceive as the real power in their life. Or perhaps in some cases they feel a responsibility to stay. And that is real. I know that to be true because when I talk to a very small group, because I could only talk to a small group, about the fact I was considering stepping down. One of the things that was raised, well, we have an election. There are people that are relying on you. And I felt that weight of responsibility so, so acutely.

But actually that was also the thing that helped me make the decision. If I knew that perhaps I didn't have in reserve what was required for crisis, and I'd seen enough of them to know what you required. And if I felt that I was becoming more defensive and maybe that my curiosity wasn't what it used to be, those were signs that it would be irresponsible to stay. Wow.

And as soon as I gave myself the permission to think about it like that, that was when I made the call. Yeah. Wow. And how did you prepare for that? How did you prepare to make the announcement? But once you've made the decision, it's done. Yeah, it's done.

How are you going to tell people? I tried to write about the decision. And you can see it's a. Yeah, it's done. It's about how are you going to tell people? And then I tried to write about the decision and you can see it's a very iterative thing and that's because I think that's reality. I can tell you actually wrote this book. Yeah, I don't know actually, you know, it was therapy with a deadline so it ended up hoping in lots of ways but writing about the act of leaving, you know, it was. It was a series of conversations. It was a series of thoughts and moments that culminated in the decision. And once I made the decision, then it just came, it was then

just about telling people. And I was, I was... You were ready. I was ready, but I was also afraid. Mm-hmm. Uh... Well, were you afraid of their judgment, their criticism? Yeah, I think when you're in politics, you're trained. You spend years being acutely aware of what everyone thinks.

And it's part of your job. I didn't want to let people down. Uh, I didn't want to disappoint people. Um... And so walking away, yeah, it felt like it was a lonely decision and it was a hard decision, but I've never regretted it and I've never felt like it was the wrong one. I was thinking this when I was reading it. Did you get out of politics because of the politics of the politics?

That has always been my least favorite part. I mean, that sounds so silly. My least favorite part of politics is politics. I was always attracted to it because of what you could do. Yeah, of the service. If you want to, if you, you know, if you're one of those idealistic young people who wants to change the world, what better place than politics? It's incredible what you can do with it. And I still believe in it now, more so than even when I went in.

But the day-to to day of it is difficult because that's what you have to do in spite of why you're motivated to be there. And I know I'm not alone in that. There are people who love the sport and there are people who just love what you can do. Tell me, how do you go from the velocity, I think is the word that Michelle Obama used

in her book, Becoming. The velocity of her days. I mean, she says, you know, you don't remember where you've been, you don't remember who you've met many times because you're meeting so many people. Just the velocity of life, the day to day. How do you go from that to now, you're taking care of me, you're in the house, you're making dinner, you're having like a normal life without people standing outside waiting for answers for everything. Well, two things.

I mean, the great... Full speed to slow speed. The great thing about running a country like New Zealand is that it's small and so you do get to maintain lots of normal things. You can, you know, you're supermarket shopping and you're from time to time a drop off for Neve. I could still do that from time to time. But you're right, the pace, the pace of life

suddenly turns off like a tap. But even though the expectation wasn't there anymore, it didn't really change the way I behaved. And so I probably now have an issue now that the book is finished because for a while that was, that was what you were doing. At nighttime I would write, you know, a spare moment. I would, I would write and it's only now after two years that I'm,

I'm sitting still for a bit and I can tell you my husband doesn't like it. No, I don't think he thinks it suits my personality particularly. Well I think he did a good job filming the documentary. He did a good... I think he only he could have really. You know, he's a broadcaster and so when suddenly I become leader of my party he just picked up his phone and started filming me and you can see in the film, I'm not always happy about that. Yeah, I can see.

And, you know, not with a great plan in mind. He just thought it was a moment in history to capture. And for me, it was a chance to humanize leadership in a moment in time when I think we could all benefit from humanizing one another. Well, you said that as a speech at Harvard in 2023. You said that now is the time that we need to rehumanize one another. We've got a hyperpartisanship now that I think can be really damaging. It means we don't work together as much. It means we don't listen and engage in respectful debate that we need.

And if we are to get back to doing all of those things, because we won't solve the climate crisis unless we do, we won't solve the conflict in the Middle East unless we do, we have to rehumanise one another again. I think that's what's missing in this discourse that everybody's having with the vitriol and the spewing of the hatred, is that people have been so dehumanized. After the attack in New Zealand on March 15, one of the things I became really interested in was

how do we get to a place where individuals are radicalized to harm and to violence? I wanted to understand how that could happen in our world. And one of the precursors to that, certainly in the academic writing, is this idea of binary thinking. Putting people into groups of good and evil and the moment that you can put people into those classifications and the moment

you dehumanize them, that is when you see the, that's when you see acts of terrorism, that's when you see acts of violence. Absolutely. And so I do, I think it's incredibly important that we find ways to remember our shared humanity. And if anything, that March 15 taught me was that we have that in us.

We have that in us. But there are so many things that make that more difficult in this modern age. Now I cannot determine what will define my time in this place, but I do hope I've demonstrated something else entirely. That you can be anxious, sensitive, kind, and wear your heart on your sleeve. You can be a mother or not.

You can be all of these things. And not only can you be here, you can lead just like me. Since you left office, I know that one of your big passions is a group that you founded called Fellowship for Empathetic Leadership. You call it FIELD. What is that and what is your intention for it? You know, after I left office, I never particularly saw myself moving into the space of talking it field. What is that and what is your intention for it?

You know, after I left office, I never particularly saw myself moving into the space of talking about leadership. I thought there are people who have studied this, it's their life's work. You know, just because I've been a leader doesn't mean I'm an expert in it. But, you know, when I sat down and worked through what would have made a difference for me as a leader, having that network of others who understand what it is to be in politics and to be leading empathetically and with a particular view of leadership, it would have made a real difference to me to have a network of others who are doing the same. And I know, as I've talked about, that there are leaders out there who are leading in that

way and may benefit from having that network. And so I started FIELD. It's a year-long fellowship program for people who are working in and around politics who believe in empathetic leadership. To just support them in their endeavours, just provide that network to help them keep going. And also to demonstrate that it is a successful way to lead and that there is support for that way to lead from voters, from the public, for the people that we serve.

When you finished your manuscript and you sent it off to the publisher, was there a sense of release and also a deeper understanding of what you've been through, having put yourself through the process of defining for yourself and now for the world what a different kind of power looks like. I remember feeling that after I read it aloud several times. I guess that probably sounds like a really strange thing to do. I think every author should. I read it aloud several times probably because, you know, I'm not an author. I was, I considered myself a speechwriter.

I would write all my major speeches. And you were speaker because you were in on the debate team. Yes, I was. I was on the debate team. I mean, surprise, I was on the debate team. Shocking as I know that will be for people. And so my training, I think, was speech writing. And so I would always read a speech aloud. And so I thought, I'm going to do that with the book. I read it aloud several times. It was after I recorded the audiobook that I remember standing back from it and thinking, you know, that is the best that I could have done. And I think actually that's how I felt after I left office. I did my best. And I think when you're someone who does suffer

from a confidence gap, that in itself is actually a pretty, is a pretty significant achievement to say, actually, I know I did my best. Well, that's all the universe requires of us. And now I'm so, I really am so delighted and pleased that you decided to put it into words so that we all get to experience it. And we all get, I think what

this book does is gives us an opportunity to look at what a different kind of power looks like within our own lives. And I thank you for that. Thank you. I have to tell you, I have been an admirer of yours from afar as I said earlier and it's so wonderful to be up close and Still have that same admiration because you know people say don't meet your heroes I'm so glad I met my hero today. Thank you. Thank you. Please come back to New Zealand I there's a lot of people wanting to hike with you. I will do that. Thank you, the right honorable Dame Jacinda

Ardern for being with us today. And A Different Kind of Power is available wherever books are sold. And Jacinda reads the audiobook. And as you just heard her say, when she finished, she said, that's the best she could do. Really, thank you. Thank you. You're one of those women that makes me proud to spell my name W-O-M-A-N. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. You can subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. Thank you to Lily for presenting today's episode. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.