The Oprah Podcast - Why 'Theo of Golden' Has Touched Millions of Readers with Allen Levi and Oprah

Episode Date: July 21, 2026

What began as a quietly self-published novel, Theo of Golden by Allen Levi, has become a literary phenomenon. First introduced in 2023 with no agent or marketing campaign the book built a devoted grassroots following through word of mouth. It eventually gained national attention, secured a bonafide publisher and become a #1 New York Times bestseller. In this conversation Oprah discusses with Allen Levi the tender, life-affirming story about a mysterious old man who arrives in the small town of Golden who transforms lives by gifting portraits to the locals and helping them feel seen. Allen reflects on what it means to live a life of love, to find hope and beauty in everyday life and to recognize the goodness in all of us. Fans of the novel, whose lives have been moved by this book, including country singer-songwriter Walker Hayes, record producer Claude Kelly and designer and TV host Tamara Day join the conversation.  

Strangers would stop and ask me, Hey, Oprah, have you read The Old Golden? It's your kind of book. The book started off self-published by a first-time author with no publicity or a marketing campaign to then topping the New York Times bestseller list. There was no deadline, no editor, no writing coach, no publisher, no agent. This is unbelievable.

I cried a lot as I wrote this book. You did. And fell in love with the characters because they all remind me. of someone I actually know. This man could love lots of people unlike himself. I wonder if I could do the same thing. That's exactly what happened to me. For anything to be good, truly good,

there must be love in it. It's the truth. That's right. I think that if we accept that premise as a rule for life, we have to figure out, okay, what is love, and then how do we live it out?

And I think that the novel for me, as I look at it now, was maybe an attempt on my part to answer those questions. What does it look like to live a love? life of love. Hi, everybody. I'm so glad to be here with you on the Oprah podcast. Welcome to my front porch. So many people were telling me, so many people were telling me about this book, people I knew,

people I didn't know, strangers would stop and ask me, hey, Oprah, have you read The Old Golden? It's your kind of book. And it turns out it actually is my kind of book. This book quietly became what the New York Times calls a word of mouth smash hit. The book started off self-published by a first-time author with no publicity or a marketing campaign to then topping the New York Times bestseller list.

It is my great pleasure to welcome the author, Alan Levi, to my front porch. And Alan Levi is delighted and honored to be here. Thank you, Oprah. I could never have dreamt. and a thousand years that this could happen. Well, I so wanted to talk to you about this beautiful book because it is a balm of good, a bomb of good feelings for readers.

Thank you. And I feel really honored to be able to sit here with you on my porch and talk to you. So you're a former musician, I hear. Right. Or you are still a musician. I piddle. I piddle.

Yeah, the book thing is taking over my life the last couple of years. Yeah. But I was a traveling musician for 15 or 20 years. And you were an attorney? I was an attorney for 13 years. Yeah. Was a judge for a couple of years. Which of those things did you like the most?

You know, I liked something about all of the music I really love. I love writing songs. Still do. Even though I've not done it much lately. But I really love the book thing. Yeah. You love the book thing. And it's a surprise to me because it takes so much.

long to write a book. First of all, can we just say this, Alan? Can you believe yourself right now? Can you believe the incredible, I mean, incredible in all that that word means, appeal that this book has had for readers around the world? I mean, in your wildest, wildest, wildest dreams, did you imagine the outcome of the success of Theo of Golden? Never, ever. You know the story. I mean, it was never supposed to be published. Yeah, I know the story. I mean, it was never supposed to be published. Yeah, I know the story. but they don't know the story. Can I share the story?

Share the story. Yeah, so I had just finished a short stint as a judge. I didn't know what I would do next. I didn't want to travel again as a musician. I was kind of tired of that. And I just happened to walk into a coffee shop with which I was very familiar. And there were portraits on the wall, 92 portraits,

all done by a dear friend of mine, Gary Pound. Dr. Gary Pound has been a friend of Allen's for nearly four decades. He is an artist from Columbus, Georgia, well known for his portraits, his landscapes and illustrations. Fountain City Coffee in Columbus, Georgia, is the beloved home for Gary's coffee shop series of portraits that served as one of the inspirations for Alan's novel, Theo of Golden. And I was looking at the portraits, and I thought, wouldn't it be fun to buy all of these one at a time and give them to the people portrayed in the frames? So I bought four of them.

I took them home and began. and to kind of ruminate on the faces. What is the story that that face tells? And so I wrote some scenes where I was giving the portrait to someone. So you're Theo. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Let me disabuse you of that quickly. Theo is who I would like to be.

Okay. But I could tell there's a story here. Okay, so we're not going to give, of course, the plot away to you all. My hope is that you all will buy and read this book if you haven't already. Theo of Golden It's going to make you feel really good about yourself, better about your own life and make you notice a lot of other people's lives.

On its surface, though, the story follows an elderly man named Theo who arrives in a small southern city and then he begins buying the pencil portraits, just like Alan originally did, of local residents one by one, and returning them to the people that they depict. And this simple act

then becomes an extraordinary catalyst for, like, connection and transformation. First of all, the four that you bought, did you ever contact those people? I did not. Yeah. Yeah. And I still don't know who they are except for one, the Ellen character in the book. And I've met her just recently. She is a delightful, delightful person.

But I don't know the others. Had you been writing all along? I know you're a musician. You wrote songs, but had you been writing stories? No stories. No stories. No stories? Yeah, a lot of times to set up songs in concert, I would write little vignettes that I might share between songs, you know.

But how did you know you could write? I didn't. And so this was a personal challenge. Could I write at all? And did I have the stamina or the muscle to sit still long enough to do a piece of long fiction? And so I started writing this story with no idea of what the plot was going to be, who the characters would be. Theo didn't come until really I had been writing for a while. I was trying to figure out how do I tie these bestoles, these giftings of the stories.

portraits together. So it took me two or three years to do it. I would write off and on. Since there was no deadline, no editor, no writing coach, no publisher, no agent, I was free to do it at whatever pace I wanted to work at. So I did it off and on. And when I finally finished it, I petted myself on the back. I'm capable of writing a piece of long fiction and was done with it. But I've got five friends with whom I spend a long weekend every year. These are old college friends. And they knew I was working on a manuscript of some kind, and they said, may we read it? And I was reluctant, but I said, yeah, you can read it, but it may not be worth your time. They read it, they liked it. They said, we think you should do something with it. And I trusted

and still trust their judgment much more than my own. So I said, okay, we'll try to do something. And so then how did you find a publisher? I didn't. You didn't? I didn't. I was talking with a niece of mine, Erin, who works with me still. I love. of the young woman. And she was looking for a job change. And I had finished the book. I've always been really, really poor at self-promotion or marketing. I was awful at it as a musician. But I said, Aaron, here's what we will do. I have written the book. You're going to do everything else. You've got to figure out graphic design. You've got to figure out how we're going to market it. And she went to work. And I tightened up the manuscript a bit. Again, I didn't have anyone to help me.

You didn't have an editor. I didn't have an editor. And so I stopped. This is unbelievable. I stumbled forward all through the process, Oprah, and it was so daunting to me, but I honestly had no expectation we would sell a copy, much less a lot of copies. But Aaron and I just kind of figured it out, and she put it up online, and the kindness of strangers in the favor of God has gotten us where we are. Okay, so you sold what? Several thousand copies in the beginning, I heard. Yeah.

So we started in November of 23, and we sold 3,000 in that first month or two. and I would have been happy to retire the project at that point, but people kept sharing it and sales kept increasing. So by the middle of last year, sales were kind of impressive, and Aaron and I were gobsmacked and overjoyed and shocked. And then we started getting calls from people in the business who said, can we take your book and do something with it? Wow.

There we go. Okay, so you go from self-publishing with Aaron to figuring out what the business. the cover is with Aaron, doing all that on your own. Then you get the call, you go with a publisher, and then you get the call that you're on the list that everybody, you know, dreams of as an author. Yeah. That, you know, seasoned authors wait for that Wednesday call to see if they made the list. What did you think when you got the call? Where were you when you got the call? It's New York Times number one best-selling book. I was putting up birdhouses in the pasture out in front of my home,

which is one of my favorite things to do and one of my favorite places to be. The book had started getting traction. Uh-huh. It was a shock. Yeah. And we were delighted with that. But yeah, the team called

and congratulated me and Aaron on the sales. And so we shouted and hung up and I returned to hanging bluebird houses. Okay. You came up with this idea for your character, Theo, and he begins buying the pencil portrait one by one, and returning them to the people that they depict. What was it about those quiet, relational moments,

the active giving back someone's own portrait, the bestowals, as you call them, that allowed us to see another part of what it means to be human? Yeah. Keep in mind, Oprah, that when I was writing this, I mean, the world was and continues to be just in a place of real division and mean spiritedness. That's my interpretation.

of it. Yes. And it felt like a story of kindness might serve us well. Again, I was not writing for an audience, but I did have in mind, if someone were to read this manuscript, what might I like them to take from it? So I was trying to appeal to the better angels of our nature.

And who doesn't like to be told that there is something really wonderful about their life? And not in a superficial or pretentious sort of way. And the old man seemed to have a real superpower at doing that. Yeah. And every time he gave a portrait before he actually put it in their hands, he would say, this is who I see in this face. Yes, and it allowed people to think of themselves in a way that they hadn't before.

Right. And you describe Theo of Golden as being like a story, you say, of creative generosity. Right. Yeah, of growing old well, of bearing grief. I just love that. Bering grief gracefully. Yeah. Building friendships through, you know, sharing stories.

Right. All of that, and a call to live lives of little nameless, unremembered acts. That's what you say, of kindness and love. Yes, yes. Did you ever, Alan, surprise yourself with how tender and powerful the themes became in this story? I did. I did constantly. And I'm not an easy weeper.

Yeah. But I cried a lot as I wrote this book. You did. And fell in love with the characters because they all remind me of someone I actually know. Really? I can't say that I modeled any of the characters on a particular person, but particularly Theo, uh,

uh, reminded me of my brother who died a few years ago. He's younger than me, but he was my hero in life, my best friend, my, my mentor in so many things, my spiritual guide.

And I realized now maybe in hindsight that I was channeling my brother's life into the old man. But I really fell in love with the characters, and that surprised me a lot. Well, and I heard the way. When you started writing the story, Theo of Golden, which I hope you all get, when you started writing the story, it wasn't fully formed. That's right.

It was not even partially formed. And you just were hoping something would bubble up. That's right. Have you not heard that before? I read it. Yeah. It doesn't work. Yeah.

It didn't work for me. It didn't work. Oh, I worked and worked and worked and nothing bubbled up. I just could not get a story to form, but I just stayed with it. And by the time I had finished what I think now has become the book, there were lots of sections that needed to be cut, so I took those out. I think I edited. How did you know?

I didn't have an editor. Yeah, it was pure instinct. And so I took probably 100 pages of text out of the book and just hoped that what was left behind would constitute a story. How did you know then, like, we're certainly not going to give the ending away. When did you know that it was going to be that ending? Pretty early on, once I realized I don't have a story and then started trying to conjure up something of a narrative, you know, a narrative arc. I had a little more definition within which to work.

Yeah. But once I made the choice, okay, this is going to kind of be the flow of the story, then the ending came real quickly. Well, like you, I've known for a long time that we're all spiritually connected. Of course. Yeah, to the energy of all creation, that I'm a part of it and it's a part of me. and you write in the book, you say, I fear we own all of the world's hurt together. That line stuck with me.

And later you say, was there, after all, one big river that flowed across the earth? You know, the word river is mentioned so many times in this book. My team says the word river is mentioned 65 times in the book. Wow. What is it about water and its flow that appeals to you? What is it about the river? Yeah.

And the river is prominent. It actually almost takes the place of a character itself. Well, Golden is its own character. That's right. The city of Golden is its own character. And it's on a river. I call it the Oxbow River. And then the Duro River in Portugal, Theo was a Portuguese man, grew up on the river.

I think river as metaphor for so many things is a powerful image for all of us. The continuity of it, the depth of it, the purity of it, if it's allowed to run its course. And then again, just the connectedness of it. The fact that some of the water from the Duro River might have made its way across the ocean and up the Chattahoochee River to golden to plant a seed on the bank of the river. But the idea of connectedness that water is on so many levels is, I think, why I chose that to be a prominent thing. You know, when I have discussed this book with friends, we all agreed that the gift is not the portraits themselves, all right? that the real, the portraits themselves, that's nice.

Right. But the real bestowal is the idea that Theo sits with each person and each person is truly seen. Right. Yeah. They are seen. Something that I think everybody is yearning for it. I mean, that's one of the big lessons I learned from the Oprah show.

You know, after talking to so many guests, I could see that there was this thread. What everybody is looking for is to know, did you hear me and did you see me? And did what I say matter? How did you come to this to learn that that's what every person was looking for? Because no matter who Theo sits with, they come away with feeling seen and also having a different way of seeing themselves. Yeah, yeah.

I think Oprah, it's just the fruit of the spirit. I love people. It's the fruit of the spirit. It's the fruit of the spirit, you know, to love people. And I live in a very small community. I know a lot of the people in my community, but I love to hear people's stories. And to quote your book,

what happened to you? People, I think, want to be seen. They want to be vulnerable with someone they can trust. And I think just growing up around good talkers myself and being heard and seen by people who I love well, maybe inspired me to give that skill set to the old man and see what he could make of it. You know, well, of course,

since I've been talking to people for so many years, I can honestly say that I have always recognized that for everybody who's watched our show, your story matters, but it's something about how quietly, how gently and how deeply you tell this story. And it's something about how Theo's quiet, calming, yet warm dignity that actually made me in my own life

more cognizant, more thoughtful about truly seeing other people. I want to know how to just, your own life experiences, your time as a musician, your time as a lawyer, your time as a trial, your time as a judge, shape the way you wrote Theo's generosity. Yeah, I think maybe on a broader spectrum, I think all of my work has made me attentive, part of it because I had to be. Oh, if you get a case ready for trial, you better be real attentive to details. As a songwriter, I woke up most days looking for something to write about, which meant I had to be attentive to

possible subject matter. And then I think, again, just having a love for people, that's a part of my faith, love my neighbor as myself, love God with heart, so mine and strength, and my neighbor. But being attentive to the fact that everyone has a story to tell, having time, because I live in a small town, maybe, that I can move at a somewhat slower pace, and then just living with an adorational attentiveness to what's going on around me. One of the things that makes the book so relatable, I think, is it's mystery. Because we're all wondering along with the folks in town. Who is this guy?

He isn't famous. Who is he? What do you know about this guy? Was it a choice to make him a stranger? Yes, very definitely. Yeah. I wanted something that would pull the reader forward because it's a slow-moving book. Most of the action in the story takes place on a bench.

Yeah. And it's just people talking. Yeah. And you're waiting to see who's going to show up on that bench if they're going to show up. Right. And so I was thinking, how do I keep the reader engaged

and this aspect of secrecy about Theo? I thought might just keep people involved in the narrative. How you knew how to do this, Alan? I'm just fascinated. It might be because I read a lot. Yeah, okay. I love to read. I'm not a very good reader.

I read slowly. My retention is awful. I complicate both of those traits by reading too many books at the same time. But I am an avid reader. and I'm a delighted reader. I love to read. And I think maybe just...

I know, you sent me this beautiful letter saying that you've chosen a lot of books by the three words, Oprah's Book Club. I have indeed. Yeah. I really have. And some of the books that have that... Oprah's Book Club?

Yeah, the Oprah's Book Club seal on it have been mind-stretching for me. I love the fact that you challenge readers. They are not easy reads. Yeah, not all of them are now. Yeah, yeah. Not intended to do. Every book I choose is meant to get you to think more deeply about yourself, your own life.

Some of them are more fun, more lighthearted than others. But everything is chosen with myself and a reader in mind. I read it thinking, okay, can I get a million other people to like this? Well done. It works. It works. But I think that reading a lot, just by osmosis, the style of writing, maybe that I'm gravitating toward, is just the result of reading other really good writers. I hope I've become one.

Listen, don't you think you are once you're on the bestsellers list and all these people are buying your books and talking about it? Yeah, that's nice. That's nice. That's nice. And it's very affirming. I don't at all diminish that. I'm more honored than I can begin to say.

The fact that I'm sitting with you is kind of the crown jewel. But, yeah, so that is very affirming. But I know that there's a lot that I can improve. the way that I write. I thank you for that. I thank you for honoring me with your words. There is a sprawling cast of characters in Theo of Golden. You give them all complete, complex backstories

with just a small amount of words. So how did each one appear to you? Yeah. Early on, once I figured out, okay, this is going to be a story, and I want the main character to be someone who has an expansive ability to engage with people unlike you. himself. I wanted each of those characters to bring something different out of Theo. And so for him to be able to engage so affectionately with a woman who was unhoused, who had had some real hardship in

her life, that made him a character, I think, with a large heart, that he could engage with a school maintenance man, that he could talk to a little boy who had physical challenges, that he would talk to a newspaper reporter who had been abandoned by a father and had really, really, really, awful images of herself in her mind. I wanted those, I wanted all of those characters to bring something else out of Theo and, and make us leave the reading experience with the, with the, the clear image, this man could love lots of people unlike himself. I wonder if I could do the same thing. That's exactly what happened to me. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You do that, Oprah. Yeah, but it just enhanced it. It tightened it. It intensified it in a way that, that I had.

It made me pay. It made me more attentive, is what it did. Me too. It made me more attentive. Just to be clear, me too. It did the same thing for you writing it, yeah. Yeah. And when I say that Theo is an aspirational character to me, I really mean it.

I really hope that I will be someone like Theo. Like Theo? Yeah, really. Well, social media, y'all, is just a buzz about Theo of Golden. Not only is it a bestseller, but everybody's talking about this book. One fan is country singer, songwriter, Walker Hayes. and you know him from his number one hit song Fancy Like, and he is joining us from his home in Tennessee.

Hi Walker, I hear this novel had a huge impact on you. How so? Unbelievable. Life-changing. Oprah, thanks for having me. Alan, it's an honor. I could go on and on for days, my man. I felt adopted by this book.

I truly did. Theo to me is an adopter, kind of like God is, you know, for all of us. And it made me want to adopt every single person I meet. It made me want to adopt my wife, my kids. It just, it changed me instantly. And I promise you, man, I've sold you a thousand copies. I'm going to sell you more and more, my man.

I'm blown away by this book. Well, thank you. How did you come to it? How did it come to you? Was it word of mouth? Somebody said you should read it like they did me? Yeah, yeah, my niece, my niece texted me and said, this book just reminds me of you, of something you need to read. And honestly, I'm not the most, you know, the more people push something on me.

Yeah. The less likely I am to dive in. I don't know, I don't know why, but, man, I got a copy. My mom and my sister actually gave me a physical copy. And, man, I wept, I laughed. I smiled. I just, you did a really great job, and I'm telling you, man, the Lord speaks through people through this book that he actually does. Yeah.

Walker, I have binged on your music the last few weeks. And I have wondered, where does this guy get the ability to write lyrics the way that he writes? I just assume that you are a verbevore. You read all the time. Maybe not. But I cannot tell you what a wonderful song

songwriter you are. And your love for people, your love for your family, your love for Christ, all of that comes through in your music. But the honesty of it and the authenticity of it is such an appealing part of what you do. Keep it up. Well, listen, you're so kind. And what you just said reminds me, Oprah, too, is this book, it makes you think of the Theo's in your life. There's many people that I called after this book. And I said, would like you to read this book because you were this person to me. You were attentive to me when I did not think I was worthy of being attentive to, you know, and obviously that makes me want to do that, you know, for other people. But yeah, someone told me a long time ago,

our attention is our greatest asset. And sadly, that's not how I naturally wake up. I naturally wake up and say, what do I need to get done today? What's on my agenda? But honestly, thriving is sharing life together, getting deep, sharing our griefs. Oh, my goodness. I'm united in grief with so many friends that I'll know until I die. And this book reminded me of those people who were brave enough to walk up to me when I was a leper, you know, and say, hey, man, I see good in you. I see sadness.

I see this. They looked at me like a flower, you know. And that's what Theo did. and Alan, just, man, the feeling's mutual. We got to hang out. Oh, I would love it. I would love it. Tell your daughter, I'm trying to learn the dance steps.

Okay. And make sure you tell Lainey that she is a hero for taking care of you and all those young ones. Right? He is. She is. I heard that one of your favorite passages from the book is, most people will die with all of their songs still inside them. Yes.

For me personally, that that hit me you know i was very you know i've i've been in nashville 21 years and there's nothing says stay you know and keep doing this there's not you know alan you've been a songwriter you understand what i'm saying and uh and so that that quote hit me but can i mention another quote is it okay yeah you mention anything go ahead i got to tell you there was a there's a quote alan that just crushed me and i'm gonna i'm gonna cry when i say it but ellen in the book, she looks, she looks Theo and the fate, you know, and she's all dressed up. I'm not going to just pull it, I promise.

And she says, do you think I'm nice? Am I making a good first impression? And I just, I was like, you know, that's everybody. You know, everybody that's making something or doing something, you just want somebody to put it on the fridge, man. Right. And we are. God is creative.

single person is creative. And you're noticing that. You didn't even know you had this book in you, my man. And it is a beautiful, beautiful book. But that quote, I told my kids about that. I said, you know, kids, I know that you wake up like this, and I want you to know, you are. You're capable of saintlyhood.

You're going to make mistakes. But my goodness, God loves you. And so do I. I'm going to do the best I can to not choose me and choose you as much as I. I can. Anyway, I can, I'm sorry, I babble on my dad. Hey, let me, let me at least pay you this compliment. It crossed my mind the other night I was driving home and was listening to your songs. And I thought, you know, if I didn't have the dad that I do have, and I'm forever grateful that A.C. Levi is my father. I love him.

But if I could choose another dad, it would be you. And just seeing you with your kids, and the way that you engage high school kids, particularly in some of your videos and whatnot. I do some work with high school kids back home. And I love that you are investing in kids younger than you, obviously, and pointing them to the truth. So bless you for that. Thank you. Well, look, I'm going to make them read your book is what I'm going to do, my man. He's going to sell you some more books.

That's what he's going to do for you. I'll buy them. I'll just give them. Walker, thank you so much. Appreciate everything you said here today. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Thank you for joining us.

Thank you, Walker. All the best. Congratulations on 17 problems. Oh, thank you very much. Thanks, Alan. Thank you, Oprah. All right. When I was speaking in Australia recently,

speaking of favorite quotes, I actually mentioned one of my all-time favorite quotes from the book, one of my favorite quotes of the year. On page 119, you write, For anything to be good, truly good, there must be love in it. I'm not even sure I know fully what that means,

but the older I get, the more I believe it, There must be love for the gift itself, love for the subject being depicted, or the story being told, and love for the audience. Whether the art is sculpture, farming, teaching, lawmaking, medicine, music, or raising a child, if love is not in it, at the very heart of it, it might be skillful, marketable, or popular, but I doubt it is truly good. Nothing is what it's supposed to be if love is not at the core. It's true. And he's saying, I'm not sure. I even know what that fully means, but the older I get, the more I believe it. For anything to be good, it has to have love in it.

You know, there's another way that that has been expressed in ancient literature. If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging symbol. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. I think that was St. Paul's attempt to say, for anything to be good, truly good, there must be love in it. It's the truth. That's right.

There's a gift itself, but it has to have love in it. And you know, that's tricky to me, Oprah, because I think that if we accept that, premise as a rule for life, which I have. We have to figure out, okay, what is love and then how do we live it out? And I think that the novel for me, as I look at it now, was maybe an attempt on my part to answer those questions. What does it look like to live a life of love? And so the fact that Theo does his bestowals as quietly as he can, you might remember there was a scene when one of the character says, why don't you just buy all 92 of them and get it over with it? Yeah, yeah.

And for him, that was defeating the whole purpose of what he was doing. He wanted to sit close enough to the person that he could touch them, he could look them in the eye, he could read their countenance, he could read the tone of their voice, and he could listen attentively just to them. If there had been 92 people in the room, couldn't do it. Couldn't do it. But doing it one at a time and listening very carefully to what they said. That was the magic of the whole thing.

Okay, so did you get up every morning and write? Did you write sporadically? Did different characters come to you while you're building the bird's nest? Yeah, yeah. You know, writing, as you probably know, I mean, once you get an idea in mind, it was this way when I was writing songs. The difference being that I could write a song in three hours and a book is going to take three years. But once the story started going, my mind was constantly on the story. But if I got frustrated, again, because I had no deadline, I had no expectation of publishing anything, I'd take a mother. too off and then pick it back up. And finally, when it started feeling like a story, I said, okay, I'm going to really finish this thing. I'm going to hunker down and get it done.

But you didn't have a ritual hour every day like a lot of people do? Not so much. I do now. And I've always been a morning person. So most of my work was done early in the day. I love early morning. So it might be three or four o'clock that I'm working. It might be six or seven o'clock, but morning hours are when my mind works best. Okay, we now have a record producer. I don't know what is it about musician. We're a record producer and songwriter, Claude Kelly, joining us on Zoom from London. Hello.

Is it late at night or early in or early on? Anyway, thanks for staying up for us. A little bit of both. A little bit of both. And I hear you're still on an emotional high from reading this book. Tell us about that. This one? This one?

You got me. You got you. Good. I got me. I was up to the evening, but I cried. Yeah. I cried. This book felt like fiction

It felt like philosophy It felt like a life lesson In all the ways I found this book through TikTok TikTok. TikTok has been a beautiful book community And a dear friend on TikTok Read it and jumped on immediately in tears

And I was like if it's making her cry I got to go buy it And as soon as I finished it I jumped on in tears Because I had to share with everybody I always say that books And pets and music choose you.

You don't choose them. They choose you when it's the right time. This book at the end of 2025 was the perfect reset for my life and for my new year in all the ways. So first of all, I have to profoundly thank you for these words. And thank you for this platform.

It's to say thank you to both of you because this book is top five of all time for me. It has a permanent space on my bookshelf. Oh, thank you. Oh, nice. The words are, they jump off the page, and it's not just about the fiction, it's about the depth of the words in the story. That just blew me away in every way.

Claude, I know your history. I have studied your work, and I know that especially early on, but even now, you are well known for the lyrical content of music that you write and produce. And coming from you, your compliments about the book, They carry great weight. But I'm curious, have you often read to improve your writing skills as a songwriter and producer? Reading is what informs my songwriting. I read at least eight to 12 books a month just to live in other people's shoes and maintain empathy.

So I can tell stories that are outside of my own experience. I write a lot for women. I write a lot for people that don't look like me. And to do that, you have to understand and be open. Right. And so reading is a big part of my career but also my personal life. So I'm always looking for ways to understand the human condition better. Yeah.

And every book teaches me something new. They all don't work. But this one worked a little bit too well. I love what you're saying, Claude. I love what you're saying about your reading to understand the human condition. And that's what I felt with every person that sat on that bench with him, we were learning something about their particular human condition. And it also, I'm sure did this for you too, as it did for me.

It made you think about everybody you encounter. It's just like what Walker was saying earlier. Everybody you encounter, you feel like you want to give them more attention, pay more attention to their story because of what Theo is doing in this story. Even more than attention, it reminded me to give everybody grace. Ah, even better, even better. What people are going through both good and bad, what their history is. And if I can go even deeper than that, the word, I was eavesdropping, and you talked about the word river, but the word that kept popping up for me, which is such a simple word is the word good.

Yeah. And the word that, I'm going to cry now. It's a word that both tortures me and fuels me. Because it's a simple word, but I'm always asking myself, what does it mean? am I being a good man, a good citizen, a good son, a good friend, a good musician? Yeah. And I'm not sure there's a right answer for it. Yeah.

But there were so many profound quotes in this book about what goodness means as it pertains to art and friendship and support. Yeah. Can I read a quote? Is that okay? Yeah, yeah. I wish you would. Thank you. My goodness.

Around the same part about there must be loving it. Right before that, it says it's hard enough to define what art is, much less good art, but I guess if a work of art makes us see something familiar in a new way or makes us feel something we ought to have felt all along or shows us our place in the world more clearly, maybe then it qualifies as good. Yeah. And a songwriter who's always putting myself out there, which is very scary, you know this. I'm always wondering, am I doing this right? Are people going to receive it? Am I even good at this thing? Yeah. And it was so comforting to know that the process of just trying to relate to people

makes you good enough. Yeah, yeah. You know, Claude, it's interesting to write about goodness. Tony Morrison says it is much more difficult to write about goodness than evil. Yeah. And she talks about how it takes like a fully developed, competent adult

to write about goodness. But I was reluctant to write about that as much as I did in the book because I think we have become so cynical by nature that when we write about goodness, kindness, they're just these defenses that go up. But I'm really glad that you gravitated to that. We talked about another quote just a minute ago

that most people die with all of their music, their songs still in them. Can I commend you for being one who will not do that? You are getting your music out, you're exploring, you're pushing the boundaries, all of that. And thank you for doing that. Maya Angelou, she talks about songs. The songbird.

Yeah. We don't, we don't, the songbird doesn't sing the song because it has the answers, but because it has the song. And sometimes I think maybe the songs that you write, we don't know how people will interpret them or how they're going to hit a heart, but thank you for what you do. It's brilliant. That means the world's mean because you just don't know who you're reaching.

What I know for sure is that my goal when I write is that it'll bless somebody. Oprah at the beginning you said this book was a book. bomb. Yeah, yeah. That's how I, because it's medicine, you know. It's medicine for the creator as they make it. It heals you first, hopefully. And then if it heals you first, you know, the medicine works.

Amen, good. Amen. Thank you. Claude, what a privilege. Thanks for staying up to talk to us. Yeah. Anytime. Thank you.

Anytime. All the way from London. Thank you so much. Thanks, Claude. There's such a beautiful spiritual thread through this book that you all will find that is not preachy, rather it's about, as we were talking about here, caring for other people about hope and the willingness to be generous without having an agenda. It feels like Theo Golden was shaped by your own beliefs of goodness and seeking that for yourself and what you

felt about hope and beauty. Right. Was it? Oh yeah, no doubt. No doubt. Oprah, I think it's fair to say that everything that I've done creatively has been an expression of my faith. I hope that everything I do every day is an expression of faith. I think you and I would share that view that everything we do. Yes. It's an expression of what's deep down in the well. It's coming out of your love of yourself and love of God and God's love for you. Exactly.

Yes. And so, yeah, everything about the book is just an attempt on my part really to articulate, even for myself, what I believe to be true. But I hope that, you know, someone else can read. I got the most interesting email this morning. What? And I don't get many. I don't use media very much.

read any reviews, I don't engage with any social media, but every now and then my niece will send me a message. She sent me one this morning from a woman, and she had read the book. She said, I'm 71 years old. I've never written to an author before. And she said, because of child trauma in my life, she said, I am an atheist. She said, I just don't buy into the God thing. But she said, the book really spoke to my heart, and she said, I just wanted you to know that the book touched a life from someone not in your intended audience. And I would like to make clear that my intended audience is every person that stands up or can read a book. No walls, no barriers. The book was never meant to be for a select group of people. I hope everybody will read it and be blessed by it. Well, how did you feel about getting that particular email? I was very gratified.

and I will respond to that one. Maybe she and I will become friends. I don't know. But yeah, it's really gratifying to know that goodness, to Claude's point, goodness, kindness, those are universals. God has hardwired that into every one of us, I think. It gets beat out of us.

And maybe because of trauma, we lose our ability to access that on a regular thing. Or to receive it. Or to receive it. Receive and accepted. But. That's what we loved about the character, Theo, and Theo of Golden is that every character comes to him with a different background.

I don't know who was atheist or who believed in God or who didn't. But he was accepting of every one of them without any judgment, which is how we try to live, but most of us don't succeed. And that's what Jesus was about. Yeah. I mean, okay, you got that sordid past. Please come. Let me welcome you.

Yeah. Like Walker was saying, that whole idea of being adopted. Theo would adopt anybody that would sit at the other end of the bench with him. May I say that ending, I couldn't even believe it. You knew that ending was coming, though. I did. You did. Yeah, and I had been criticized mightily for it.

But it had to happen. It had to happen the way that it happened. I tried to work other endings to get to the same very end of the book, but none of them worked. And you've heard said that good art makes us feel something. I knew that, you know, that part of the book was going to make people feel something deeply. I can live with that. I like that. You can live with that.

I can live with that. Okay. Host and designer, Tamara Day from the hit show Bargain Mansions is joining us from our home in Kansas. Tamara, how did the book impact you? Oh, well, it's been incredible. I feel like, I want to thank you for hosting this, and I get the benefit of being at the end of this lovely hour, and I didn't think I could adore it.

you any more than I do already did but now Ellen you've just you've touched my heart in a whole new way than I even expected the book was such a meaningful book for me as such a meaningful time and um I think for me right now as a a mom turning 50 and having four kids two of them out of the house and one of them getting ready to leave the home my my biggest takeaway is that I want to want them to be a bit of Theo in the world. Yeah. But I hope that they go into the world and find somebody that's a Theo. And that they get to receive and give that.

I love the quote that you said, there was Theo before Lisbon and after Lisbon. And I feel like I am Tamara before Theo. Really? Oh, thank you. Wow, wow, wow. It's just so beautiful in so many ways. Yeah.

Tamara, did it ever strike you? that what you do is exactly what Theo did with people. You happen to do it with structures. But I think there's such an interesting parallel between what Tamara does with these structures that just need someone to love them. You adopt them. You can see beyond the shell.

You can see the potential that's hidden behind the boards. And you do this wonderful reconfiguration that turns into beauty. That's exactly what Theo did. And you do that obviously with your family. I've read a lot of what you have online, especially about your son who recently graduated, I think. But you and Bill have done such a wonderful job with your family,

and that's a blessing to all who know what you do out there. Thank you. I really appreciate that so much. I think that there's value in every home that I work on, and there's value in every person. That's what I think I learned so much in Theo, is that there is so much value and potential and every person.

And like Oprah said, I don't think everyone feels seen in life. And this really gave me an opportunity to look and say everybody is going through a sadness and a joy. Yeah. And just look a little deeper. Yeah, yeah, that's good.

Thank you, Tamara. Thank you so much. Thanks for joining us. Tamara, every person. I feel the same way. I mean, we love the book. I've read a lot about Alan Levi and his whole story. And then you meet him and it's like,

Wow, this guy is the real deal. The real deal. Thank you. Thank you, Tamara. Likewise. My love to bill. Thank you. So Theo observes a sadness, as we were just talking about with Tamara, about this joy and sadness.

And you write on page 214, it is another of life's great mysteries that sadness and joy can coexist so compatibly with one another. And there is the beautiful possibility that great love can grow out of sadness. if it is well-tended, sadness can make us bitter or wise we get to choose. What does it look like for sadness to be well-attended, do you think, Alan? Yeah, I think we have to prepare for tending it well before we ever get there. You know what I mean? I do know what you mean. I mean, we know what's coming.

You know what's coming. It means Theo was 86 when the story began, and by then no one could have lived eight decades and not been hurt deeply. All of us have to deal with it. One of the reasons that I included that, and it was actually late in the writing, Oprah, was because I wanted for people to come away with the impression that this story is about the world that I know. And all of us live in a world where there is sadness. But I think to be able to say, okay, this is part of the human experience.

It doesn't have to undo me. Oftentimes it does, at least for a season. But I can prepare for this and I can love myself through this experience. I can accept the love of God through this experience and I can share it with others. And of course, when we hurt and survive, then it just opens the door for us to help others when they go through the same thing

and we can look at our experience. I think that's what our surviving and hurting is all about is turning it into something useful for other people, being able to use it to share, which is what you've done throughout this book. A lot of people listening to us right now, a lot of you have been either read, of Golden and as our guest today felt something profound or you were called to be more thoughtful

or kind or generous seeing one another in a way that you hadn't before and now we'll be moved to read it hopefully if you have not but if you could have everyone understand one truth from this book what would it be it would be the one that you've already mentioned yeah that if we are going to live our lives well. We have to pray that it all comes from a well of love that can only come from God to us. You know, there was a time that a lawyer asked Jesus a question, and he said, what is the great commandment? And there were hundreds that he could have chosen from. But very quickly he responded, love God with heart, soul, mind, and strength. Love your neighbor as yourself. All of the law and the prophets hang on these commandments. And that is what life is about. Sometimes it's

hard to know whether we're doing it well or not. Yeah. And we have to define it. We have to figure out what it looks like if I'm an insurance salesman, a teacher, a stay-at-home mom, a pastor, a bricklayer. Love looks different in those different settings. But at the end of the day, I think we all want to be able, honestly, put our head on the pillow and say, I loved well today. I think at the end of our lives, it would be nice if we could say, Lord, I didn't do it perfectly. But my aim in life was to love. And Oprah Winfrey, You do that in a way that makes the rest of us envious. Your story is so well known,

but the thing that endears so many people to you is behind all of your expertise and your professionalism, your heart explodes with love for people, love for God. I listened to part of your story the other night, a hard part of your story, where you said that during those hard times it was God your father and Jesus, your brother, who held you up.

Absolutely. And that comes through in so much, everything that you do. So in behalf of so many millions of people, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for what you do. Thank you for that. You know, we have never had a guest here on television and all the years, do for our Zoom readers what you just did for everybody, making them feel so seen, just like Theo, just like Theo.

You do it. You do it every day. So thank you. Thank you. Well, you're someone who's absolutely paid attention to your own life and to the human condition. I wonder, what is your definition of a well-lived life? You seem to have one. But how would you define a well-lived life?

Okay, I will repeat myself. A life lived in deference or submission to the idea that we honor God and love people well. and every day our mission is that honor God, love people well. A life well lived is one where we look beyond our own needs, our own preferences. We accept others where they are asking nothing and without condition. And to go back to what Walker was saying, we adopt, we illuminate the lives of others by the way that we love them. If we could do that well, I'm sure the world would look a lot different than it does now.

What would you say? Can I ask you that question? What does a life well-lived look like to Oprah? I think a life well-lived is a life-understanding what I was saying earlier, that you are connected to a source that we call God that's greater than you, that that source is a part of you living, thriving above, above, around and through you in all ways, and that your goal in life is to exemplify. as closely as you can, the teachings and the love that is offered from your creator, God.

Yeah, amen. And our well-lived life is when you can do that in such a way that you benefit, but everyone else benefits also. Exactly, exactly. Good Theo did that in the story, right? Yes, he did. And I think if anyone asked the old man if he thought he enjoyed it more or the recipients of the bestols, he would have said, no one enjoyed this more than me. It's that idea that it's more blessed to give than to receive. That really works.

Yeah. And I do believe that, too. Yeah. I do believe that, too, as I know you do. I do. And I know many of you listening will be pleased to hear that Alan is writing a sequel title, Ellen of Golden. Yes, indeed. How far long are you, and what can readers expect? I have had my teeth in it for a while, but I've got a lot yet to do. She's been a difficult character to wrestle to the mat. She still have that bicycle? She's still got the noble invention. She is really a beautiful character, but the story will be different.

I don't think I'm tipping my hand in any way by saying this. She's homeless, and she's very bright. She is very well read, and I've got to explain how does someone with that sort of erudition also have that sort of eccentricity, and she's had a hard life. and so the storyline will be a bit different. Yeah. And the tone of the story, at least for a good portion of the text, will be a bit different than Theo.

Yeah. Yeah. And are you having, is it coming easy to you? Is it challenging? Oh, it's so hard. And Oprah, here's why. I think it's kind of like what Claude was saying. Yeah.

There was no expectation on the first book. I wasn't trying to please anybody. I was just trying to prove to myself I could write a book. And now there are a lot of people who have read Theo, and they're probably expecting. There's an expectation. Yeah, it's really hard. It's really hard.

But. Because you're no longer just writing for yourself. You definitely are not and you know it. That's right. And you have a bestseller list to prove it. Yeah. But I'm loving it. I will say that.

You're loving it. I still, the characters all jump into bed with me at night. They are living with me 24 hours. Do you write longhand or do you write computer? I'm old school. You're old school. It's all long hand. I type it up and do my edits in long hand.

Very inefficient way to write, but I can't, right any other way. I'm a dinosaur. That's that old attorney in you. It is. It is. It is. Coming through. Well, y'all, Theo of Golden is out now, and it's available wherever books are sold. And I thank you for this really magnetic, magnificent story. And for the reminder that really, every life is worth noticing, is worth being attentive to. Indeed.

And as Cod said, offering grace to. Yeah. And I hope our conversation today in this beautiful book inspires you all to find your Theo within. Thank you, Alan Levi. Thank you, also. Coming all the way to my porch. I love it. Thank you. Thank you, Walker. And thank you, Claude and Tamara, for zooming in. We'll see you next week, everybody. Go well. If you're looking for a story that's going to warm your heart, I know for sure. Oh, my goodness.

You're going to love Theo of Golden. The QR code to buy it is right there on your screen. It's as easy as easy can be. It's a novel that's centered on kindness, connection, and the extraordinary impact that one person can have on a community. I know so many people who've read it and feel that their light has been enhanced by the reading of it. This book stays with you long after this last page, and you can buy it right now. Scan the QR code on your screen. It's so easy. And happy summer reading.

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