The Oprah Podcast - You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want

Episode Date: February 25, 2025

BUY THE BOOK! "Matters of the Heart: Healing Your Relationship with Yourself and Those You Love" By Thema Bryant, Ph.D. - available here. In this episode of The Oprah Podcast, renowned psychologist, author, and minister Dr. Thema Bryant shares practical ways we can heal the relationship we have with ourselves and those closest to us. Dr. Thema integrates both clinical insights along with spiritual wisdom and teaches how to nurture our relationships, which she says enhances our overall quality of life. Dr. Thema also answers questions from people who Zoom in from around the country that desire to heal the relationships in their own lives. Subscribe: https://www.youtube.com/@Oprah Follow Oprah Winfrey on Social: https://www.instagram.com/oprah/ https://www.facebook.com/oprahwinfrey/ Listen to the full podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/0tEVrfNp92a7lbjDe6GMLI https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-oprah-podcast/id1782960381 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello and thank you for listening to the Oprah Podcast. Hello to you watching on YouTube. We are diving into today, healing relationships with our loved ones and the one that matters the most, our relationship with ourselves. It's the ultimate. I want you to welcome with me Dr. Tamah Bryant. Can we just speak a minute about what betrayal does to the spirit? It's depleting, I'll tell you that much.

You are not actually grieving the relationship. You're grieving your idea of what you thought the relationship would be. That is so powerful. For too long we are made to believe that we must say yes to everything. And I want to tell you the holiness of no. No is a sacred word. The holiness of no. No is a sacred word. The holiness of no. I like that. I heard that. Let the church say amen.

A graduate of Duke University, Dr. Tamah Bryant, who goes by Dr. Tamah, is a clinical psychologist, a professor of psychology at Pepperdine University and an ordained minister. Dr. Tamah is the author of three books and is the host of the popular The Homecoming podcast, which raises awareness about mental health. Your latest book is called Matters of the Heart, which I was even so touched by the title. Matters of the Heart, Healing Your Relationship with Yourself and Those You Love. And let me say to all of you who are watching or listening, this book is a treasure.

It's a treasure trove of wisdom for any phase of your life. And we have you covered on this episode. Whatever you're going through, Dr. Tamer talks about how to set better boundaries, forgiving without receiving an apology. I'm going to say that again. Forgiving without receiving an apology. Don't we all want to know how to do that?

Investing deeper in your current relationships and releasing those in your life who just are not healthy for you. To let them, as Mel Robbins said on a previous podcast, to let them go. And you start the book with this. I love this so much. I come to this work as your facilitator, you say. Someone who has experienced living with a full heart, living a busy life with a neglected heart, going through the deep sea diving of living with a neglected heart, going through the deep sea diving of living with a broken heart,

and tenderly and compassionately healing my heart. Why did you need to heal your own heart? There were, first of all, I want to say thank you, Oprah, for having me. This is so wonderful and something I have been looking forward to being able to share this work with the public because many of us are walking around with broken hearts and I like to say my understanding of healing my heart is not just from doctoral studies or reading books but having lived it so to know firsthand that it's possible to heal our hearts. The first way I would say my heart was broken is something I know you can relate to the realities of racism and sexism that cause us to not see our own beauty.

And so to be brokenhearted as a chocolate girl in Baltimore, to not be able to see the full glory of who I am. And so I had to heal my sense of myself because of all of the messages that bombard us very early to say that we're not enough. And then moving further along while I was in high school, my father was elected to be a bishop in the AME Church. We moved to- Can I just stop everybody right now? Yes.

Because I have known you since you were a little girl. That's right. Because Bethel AME Church, y'all, in Baltimore was the center of our, not just the city, but the spiritual culture for the city. That's right. And when I first moved from my father's house in Nashville and moved to Baltimore, the first thing he said to me was, find yourself a church home. And Bethel became my church home.

And I used to sit in, I used to come to eight o'clock service because you couldn't get in at 11 o'clock service. I used to drive all the way from Columbia, Maryland. And I would be mesmerized by your father and your mother. Yes, both. And your mother. Thank you. Thank you so much. And you were just an itty bitty. And your mother. Thank you. Thank you so much.

And you were just an itty bitty. I was a little bitty. That's why like seven, eight years old, seeing you, and we would see you on the news. Yes. And then see you at church, which is such a great example for us to know what's possible. Wow.

That this reflection is more than attainable. Did I ever tell you this? That I became a tither at Bethel. It became my stabilizing force, being a 22 year old girl moving to a city and not knowing anybody. That was not just my church home, it became my home, my community, my people.

Wow. It was everything for me. It is everything. Community is so important for us healing. And so that was a part of me talk about like the broken heart. Yes. When I was a college student at Duke University, I came home to Baltimore for a visit.

And a member of our church sexually assaulted me. You talk about heartbreak. Yes. Heartbreak. It is that break of trust when you think you're safe in someone's presence or we assume, you know, if you're in a faith community, everyone is going to be caring and loving. And so that was like a disruption. I'll say before that, I was a straight A student. And for the first time, like I couldn't focus. I couldn't concentrate. I had to go speak

to a dean and there was one black dean at Duke University who had the same last name, Dean Bryant, and I just came to her in all of my despair and had to heal my heart. So that this has been a long journey up until this year, this past year, the passing of my mother, right? Which is another heartbreak, but I love what you shared in a prior episode of They Never Leave Us. And I definitely feel her presence today, every day. It's different, it's different, but it's there.

But it's real. She's there feel it even? It's different. Yes. It's different. Yeah. But it's there and it's real. But she's there. Yeah. So that feels good. In chapter one of Matters of the Heart, you reinforce for us the importance of self-compassion and you define it this way.

To be compassionate towards yourself means, I love this, you've created space for the fullness of your complex identity and your complicated life, including your fractured heart. The aim is to be able to look at yourself with honesty and appreciation. And the reason why it stopped me in my tracks because I thought, wow, so many people are walking around with fractured hearts. Yes. Yes. So many people are walking around with fractured hearts. Yes, yes. We have so many layers and parts of ourselves

that we discard or that we hide because we desire to be acceptable. So it's like, what part of me did I tuck away in order for other people to give validation or approval? And so gathering those broken pieces so I can be wholly me. And the essence of matters of the heart, may I share with you all, is that you gotta take care of yourself first.

You gotta practice compassion for yourself first before you can begin to give it to other people. And what is the best way for people to practice self-compassion, Dr. Tamah? Yeah, a big part of it is self-acceptance and recognizing you can feel more than one thing at the same time and you can be more than one thing at the same time. Sometimes we don't give ourselves grace because we have

this idea of perfection that doesn't leave room for our humanity. So I can have compassion on myself. I say, if you look far enough back at your story, your dips and dives and falls make sense. Sometimes we don't look at ourselves in context. So we're like, why did I do that? Or I'm so stupid or what's wrong with me? But if you tell me the fullness of your story, where

you landed made sense. And then you talk about this overextending yourself result in depletion. I mean, we have seen that over and over and over again, particularly in our community where women have given and given and given and there is nothing left. And then don't understand why they are depleted. But you're saying that is the absolute counter opposite of having self-compassion. But how do you, this is the thing.

I was reading that and I was thinking about all the people who were saying, easy for you to say Oprah, easy for you to say Dr. Tamer, give yourself self-compassion. When you are the number one breadwinner, when you are the one taking care of everybody, and there's nobody there to take care of you, where is there room for self-compassion?

Right. What I say to that is your current way of living is unsustainable. And so we self-destruct. And even when we say, I don't have time to heal, even we'll say, I'm too busy to be depressed. Well, depression will catch you, no matter how busy you are. And so what it becomes is it's necessary for us to train our eyes to see the ways that it's showing up.

So it might not look like, so for example, with black women, sometimes our despair shows up as irritability. So then people say, you have a bad attitude. No, she's in despair. But if I am harsh, if I am hardworking, if I'm a workaholic, if I'm a perfectionist, if I'm busy all the time, other people will celebrate that, but I'm empty on the inside.

So it becomes not valuing myself, because everybody else is saying, good job. But when I lay myself down at night, then what do I say and what do I feel? And I choose to pour into myself so that it can actually be well. So what should you be pouring? Should you be pouring prayers? Should be pouring preparing, you know, pouring in silence? What should you be pouring in? Yeah. So there are these... Because I think so many, and we're speaking to all of you

who are just overwhelmed, you're overwhelmed and depleted. Yes, yes. So one of the things that we pour in is rest and stillness, and many of us don't know how to be still. And we will say to ourselves, I don't have time to be still. I'll have time. Right? I have to do a million things. And the reality is that if we don't stop ourselves, our bodies or minds will stop us. And that's what we see happen time and time again.

Bodies meaning illness. Yes. So we get sick and we know, you know, one of the things that research shows is the way our autoimmune disorders and systems for women, when we suppress our anger, we suppress our feeling, we neglect ourselves, and it shows up in the body. And so then, now you have to be still. Now you have to be still. Yeah.

I know. I heard another scientist say that the sickness often is your body's way of saying, time out, I'm done. I've done. I don't have anything else to give. And then it shows up in our minds and our mental health. So you mentioned prayer and our spiritual practice is important and it has to come from an authentic place. Sometimes we're doing public relations in our prayers, like these and vows, and we want it to sound holy. But in order for it to be effective, it has to be honest.

Yeah. And so for us to be true in our prayers, and I'm going to say even for meditation, and some people say, oh, I don't know if meditation is against my religion. Being still? Being still and silent is against your religion. So for us to tune into our breath and into our bodies, and then our food affects our mood.

And so what do I nourish myself? And I like to say, I'm eating this because I love myself. Yes. I'm eating this because I love myself. I'm eating this because I want to live, right? And so then feeding myself, loving relationships. I think one of the things that I really appreciated about Matters of Heart is that it's not like flipping a switch and all of a sudden you're going to do everything. It's about taking small steps to begin to see yourself differently so that you can then

actually know and acknowledge what it is you need to begin to take care of yourself. Because I think so many people haven't even asked themselves the question. Right. Of what they actually need. And I want to also say for us to have compassion means when I get it wrong or when I fall off the track, I don't say, well, now it doesn't matter. Like everything is ruined. It's I start again.

I begin again. I'm so glad you joined me for this episode of the Oprah Podcast. When we come back, Dr. Tamah and I talk about how to heal after a betrayal. I think that's an issue so many people can relate to. That's coming up after the break. This episode of the Oprah podcast is sponsored in part by NetSuite by Oracle. What does the future hold for business?

Ask nine experts and you'll get 10 answers. Rates will rise, rates will fall, inflation's up or down. Can someone please invent a crystal ball? Until then, over 41,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, HR into one fluid platform. With one unified business management suite, there's one source of truth, giving you the

visibility and control you need to make quick decisions. With real-time insights and forecasting, you're peering into the future with actionable data. When you're closing the books in days, not weeks, you're spending less time looking backwards and more time on what's next. Whether your company is earning millions or even hundreds of millions, NetSuite helps you respond to immediate challenges and seize your biggest opportunities. Download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning

for free at netsuite.com slash Oprah. That's netsuite.com slash Oprah, netsuite.com slash Oprah netsuite.com slash Oprah. Thank you for joining us on the Oprah podcast. I am so happy you're here and I'm back with relationship expert, Dr. Tamar Bryant, author of Matters of the Heart. And we're about to hear some very personal stories from viewers and listeners who say they are struggling on their path to healing.

So let's get to it. I'm so happy that there's so many people here who are interested in the healing process, because we heard a lot of people who are in need of improving themselves, some who are joining us on Zoom today. Avery is one of those people. Avery, I hear you're 27.

You recently moved to Colorado for a fresh start after experiencing a betrayal, the kind, you know, to Colorado for a fresh start after experiencing a betrayal, the kind we keep hearing about more and more about. Betrayal leaves you devastated, doesn't it, Dr. Tamer? It's heartbreaking. Can we just speak a minute about what betrayal does to the spirit? Yes. It's depleting, I'll tell you that much.

But hi, thank you for having me. Lovely to see you both. Yes, I just moved back to Denver. I'm originally from Colorado after a pretty depleting heart heartache and it was about two years ago on the dot. So I'd say we're we're on the up and up for sure. You're on the up and up. Okay, what did you want to ask Dr. Tamah? So I guess my biggest thing is after you go through a heartache, you know, I lived with my ex, we were buying a house together, and we were together for three years. And when I found out that he basically had a whole other girlfriend. And how did you find out?

Was it through a phone? It was through video game messages and then phone and then Instagram. Phones have revealed a lot in this world. A lot of people got messed up with the phones. Go ahead. Yes. The phones are destroying a lot of relationships. But anyway. Yeah. And so I guess after that happened, my biggest thing is I really gained this avoidant attachment style, where nice people would come into my life and I would brush them away or break up with them too soon to even give them a chance, all because if I do the breaking up with, then I can't get hurt kind of thing.

I think there's plenty of women in the world that struggle with this after heartache where you would rather just be alone than ever go through that feeling again. And I think that's something to try to work through. Yeah. Thank you so much for your transparency and for sharing your heartbreak. The first thing I want to say to you is you are not actually grieving the relationship. You're grieving your idea of what you thought the relationship would be. Because in reality, he was not who you thought he was. And so the relationship is not actually one that was mutually nourishing, mutually respectful,

mutually edifying. And so it makes sense. That clarification helps. Right? That it's not actually you miss them, it's you miss your idea of who you thought they were. Right? Yeah.

And then, you know, when we talk about the aftermath, sometimes we create a story about why it happened because we want things to make sense. And so in your story creation of why it happened, you may be looking at yourself or blaming yourself or shaming yourself when the truth of it really may have nothing to do with you. It may be that he had or he or she had access. It may be just for fun.

It may be that they were socialized to never be faithful and have not been faithful their whole lives. And so sometimes we try to, it's an illusion of control. If I figure out what I did wrong and I do it different this time, I'll be safe. And so I invite you to release yourself from the lie that you could have made it be different. The person who could have made it be different is the other person, right? That is so powerful. I could see that hit you and landed is that you realize in that moment that Dr. Tamer was talking that you are grieving the idea that you had of him, because who

he really was, who he really is, is the guy who betrayed you. Right. Yeah. And you know, when you're working through those feelings, you can go to therapy every single day, but you're still like, what could I have done differently? Why did this happen? Not one thing. No, right.

We desire, yeah, we desire the control. And let me say, the part of you that was immediately like, I don't want relationships again, is actually a healthy part. It's good to be still after a breakup. Sometimes people jump right out there and they go pick a new person, different name, different face, same personality, same cycle. So it's an indication of healthiness to pause.

And then it's an indication that you've started healing when a part of you now desires relationship again, right? Because before you didn't want it. Now you're like, maybe, it would be nice. So that's your heart starting to open back up again. And to not sabotage it. I know you talk about running, especially if you are, feel moved by them because it doesn't feel safe.

But while part of our healing happens individually, like by ourselves, and part of it happens in therapy, a part of your heart's healing will only take place actually in healthy loving relationship. That's when you will really grasp some of the triggers to learn how to show up and not run. It's going to happen in that process. And so giving yourself the patience and permission to try again, to not let the

ex rob you of the realities of love. Right. Now, that's so powerful. Thank you for saying that. I agree with that where it brings out the triggers in me when I am talking to someone that's very healthy. And so it's just healing, healing your heart and working through that together if they're willing to or doing the

work on your own. So I appreciate that. Avery, the fact that he cheated on you with those eyes that match your sweater. I don't even know what to say. I don't even know what to say. Coming to you that that really makes my heart melt. I want to say bye, boy. Boy, bye. Okay. That is the truth. I want to say bye, boy. Boy, bye. OK?

That is the truth. Thank you so much, Avery. Thank you. Thank you. Have a great rest of your day. I love the fact that you say it matters of the heart, that you have a whole chapter, actually, that experiencing infidelity, which Avery's been going

through and grieving this past two years, is really a form of loss and grief and trauma. It's not just infidelity. It is a major thing to be betrayed. And a part of our healing community is so important. And so that's one of the things I love about you and Gail sharing her journey of what a difference it made for you to show up as sister as both truth teller, but also with that compassion. Because when we're in those moments, we need to be reminded who we are and reminded of our worth.

And so what better people to do that than people who genuinely care about you. Absolutely. You need somebody there to tell you the truth. That's right. So that you don't end up with the lie of, I'm worthy, I'm not attractive enough, I'm not interesting enough. All of the lies of not enoughness. And the level of betrayal sometimes is so profound that you're just like, girl, please.

Yes. Yes. So it can disrupt your life of how you disrupt your life of how you thought your life was going to be. You know, you imagined a future with this person and felt secure in that. And so a part of it is what you think about not only in terms of the other person,

but your picture of yourself. And so one of the things I like to shift for people is not thinking about the ending of all relationships as a failure Some people are like, oh it failed Sometimes leaving a relationship is a success. Yeah, you got that's your triumph. Yeah Yeah, and I really really really it resonated with me and I'm sure a lot of you to listening to us What you said to Avery about you are grieving the man you wanted him to be.

Yes, absolutely. And sometimes we fall for potential of like, if only this, if only that, if only these five things, you would be my dream person. And so we have to look at the truth of who this person is and do I really want the truth of that? And I think for Avery and for anybody else who's going through this, that to get the truth of it helps the healing of your own heart.

Yeah. Yeah. She's gonna come through it and gonna be stronger and better for whoever shows up next. So Stevie is joining us. Stevie's a wife and mother to a toddler. Hi, Stevie. I hear you'd like... Hi, Stevie.

I heard that you wanted to deepen female relationships in your life. What's going on with you? Yes. So friendships are a little challenging for me right now. I'm in my 30s. I'm surrounded by a lot of community and a lot of people. But I really am more focused on quality of friendships than quantity. I'm hoping that I can have more valuable, intimate relationships and friendships at this stage in my life. I'm a wife and a mom now.

But things kind of feel high stakes for me in my life, and I am a bit of a perfectionist, so that can kind of be debilitating for me at times with new friendships because I'm afraid I'm not going to show up for them the way that they need or I'm going to feel at them. So that's been a bit of a stumbling block. And you know, growing up, I saw so many black friendships on television, black women who would kiki together and have a good time and then cry on each other's shoulders. And I don't really feel like I have a working framework for that in real life. What that looks like to be, to fall apart, to be vulnerable, to be there

in those challenging times. I'm kind of listening to you too, Dr. Tamah. My mother passed when I was 16. So some of those formative moments weren't there. So I never got to see that in person. So yeah, I think that's where I am right now. Do you have a question? My question is kind of how do I reconcile with this when I want to nourish the friendships and show up for my friends that I currently have and meeting new people at this stage in my life.

Yeah, thank you for the question. And the first thing I want to speak to is the younger version of you and that part of you who has been disappointed, the part of you that was not chosen, the part of you that was not embraced, the part of you that has never been sistered, the part of you that was not embraced, the part of you that has never been sistered, the part of you that misses being mothered, the part of you that feels you have to be perfect and that people will abandon you or leave you or reject you if you are not perfect. And I want to say to you that that is a lie, that you are worthy of friendship, that you are worthy of sisterhood, and that real sisters do not require your perfection

and they will meet you where you are. And so instead of hiding or being afraid to consider what it will mean to be known, to be seen, to be heard, to be validated, to be celebrated, to be heard, to be validated, to be celebrated, to be appreciated. There are women in your city waiting to sister you. There are women in your city waiting to sister you authentically.

And so what happens is our anxiety causes us to isolate and to hide and to block our blessing. And so you affirm to yourself, I will not block the love of a sister that is trying to find me. And I will not have to be perfect for them. You know, with strangers, we have to do public relations. How are you? I'm fine.

How are you? I'm blessed. I'm better than blessed. But with my sisters, as you said, I can unfold and say, you know what? I'm tired. You know what? I'm confused. You know what? I'm fed up. And I'm going to I'm better than blessed. But with my sisters, as you said, I can unfold and say,

you know what, I'm tired. You know what, I'm confused. You know what, I'm fed up. And so that is what your soul desires. So I'm so glad by you questioning it, it means you're ready. It means you're ready to stop fighting it, ready to stop running from it.

You're ready to receive it. And so this is your season for that. fighting it, ready to stop running from it, you're ready to receive it. And so this is your season for that. Wow, preach this evening. Whoa. The fact that she is questioning it, it's just like you said to Avery before, the fact that you're now thinking about, now maybe I'm ready to be interested in somebody else, means the healing has taken place.

So the fact that you are in this space, isn't that a wow-aha for you? The fact that you're in the space of asking the question means that you are spiritually, emotionally, psychologically getting yourself ready for this season that is yours to come. And I want you to know transparency is contagious. So if you meet people and stay very surface about brunch or about shopping, that's where it will stay. But as soon as you deepen it, there are people who will meet you there

at the level of your depth. And then they'll say, me too, me too. So be open to it. But then as you're connecting with people, let them actually meet you, not a performance. Wow. I love it. Thank you.

You are so welcome. I'm excited about seeing you and your girlfriends. Yeah, I'm really excited for you. Yes. I'm excited for you. Thank you so much. Thank you, Stevie. I could see

that that message from Dr. Tamah just blessed you right now. And all of us who were able to witness it feel the blessing. Yes. Thank you so much. Go with it. Thank you, Stevie. Thank you. Coming up, Dr. Tamah explains why so many of us can get caught up in the distractions in our daily lives, like taking care of kids or building careers or focusing on life's challenges instead of taking care of ourselves and our wellness. Sometimes hard to do, I've got to say.

I know so many of us do that, don't we? We'll talk about that next. This episode of the Oprah podcast is sponsored in part by Alloy Women's Health. Are you confused about menopause and perimenopause? about that next. doctors with unlimited ongoing care with your own personal doctor. You can message them anytime from anywhere for no extra cost. Menopause is inevitable, but suffering doesn't have to be. Alloy has everything you need to age happily and healthily. Feel like yourself again. Go to myalloy.com to start your consult with a menopause trained expert today. Use code OPRA to get $20 off your first order. We're learning how to heal our relationships with others and ourselves. Author Dr. Tama

Bryant is here and she is just full of wisdom on this episode of the OPRAH Podcast. We have, you did that thing right there. That was so excellent. Thank you. We have Nastasha joining us from Chicago. Hey, welcome. I hear, hi, how Chicago, where are you? So I'm in a South suburb of Chicago, Homer Glen near Orland Park. Okay, I know where that is. And I hear after 15 years of nursing and caring for others that you've now come to a revelation about yourself and the matters of your heart.

Tell us what that is. What happened? Yeah. Yeah, so thank you Oprah and Dr. Ksema for having me here today and really this platform, this podcast. So I'm on an emotional healing journey with myself. I became a teen mom at the age of 16.

And while my daughter, Caitlin, was an absolute blessing, she literally saved my life because I was on a bad path as a teenager. But I struggled with my sense of self-worth and trying to prove myself, trying to beat that stigma or that being another statistic in terms of a teen mom. So I really just pushed myself into my nursing career, you know,

working full time, going to school and then going all the way to the end. I got my terminal degree, my doctorate in nursing, which I'm extremely proud of. But in that process, I neglected the people that matter the most, which was my family. And I remember this aha moment, as you say, Oprah, where husband Dale, who's an amazing man, and we speak to each other from a place of love and honesty, he said to me, I feel like you treat your patients better than you treat your family. And it was in that moment that I was like, oh my God, I am pouring so much in to others and service that by the time I come home, I'm empty.

And I am not showing up as my best self to the people that matter the most. And so it was really hard, but I decided that I would make a career shift so that I could give to these non-professional aspects of my life. Um, and then, but then I found myself in another predicament. I was in this like identity crisis, you know, for 15 plus years, I've been a nurse, I've been a nurse practitioner, but now that I'm not in that role and I'm not directly doing that, it was kind of like, who am I? You know, who is Nastassia? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. of like, who am I? Who is Nistachia? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you for speaking this truth. And for many of us, achievement is easier than relationship. So even though you worked hard to get your doctorate, that was actually easier than showing up in that personal space. It's very by the book.

Like I memorize the terms, I apply the terms. Yeah. And it's so interesting you saying that, cause I noticed this with a lot of my daughter girls who come to school from South Africa to go to college here, where achievement becomes the thing. Yes. Achievement becomes their identity.

Achievement, I had one of my daughter girls who's now a doctor at UPenn, but went to Spelman, graduated summa cum laude, got one B and fell apart because the identity was I'm a straight A student because I said, it's a B. And she goes, but I'm a straight- And that's my worth. That means I'm good. That's right. And so what I have found with a number of my girls

is that because so much emphasis has been put on the academics and achieving and being success, and you're the first in your family and all of that, they're not as good with the relationships because all the energy goes into making yourself the successful person. Right. Yeah.

And I wonder what is the lie that you were told or that you believed about teen mothers? Yeah, I just remember going to pick up my daughter, right? And they'd be like, where's Caitlin's mom at? And I'd be like, I just remember, you know, going to pick up my daughter, right? And they'd be like, where's where's Caitlin's mom at? You know, I'd be like, I'm here. Like, no, no, no. You know, where's Caitlin's mom? And I'm like, it's me. I'm here. And it was just like, I guess, not being seen.

Yeah. Or not even being, you know, thought of that. This is the person that is raising this wonderful human being and like doing everything in her power, working two jobs, going to school, staying up late at night, just to provide a better life for her. So I think that's where it felt like I tried to add a group that I'm worthy enough to be there. That invisibility, and I'm going to say the relationship that led to the teen pregnancy, let's just pause there.

So that relationship and then people's response to you of not seeing you as a capable mother, just ruling you out, eliminating you because of your age, that you have been chasing enoughness since then. And that's been many, many years. And so now what has happened is healing and ease feel uncomfortable to you. That's why you think you're bored. That's what ease feels like. It's not boring. It's not boring. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. High five yourself. Yeah.

I know that hit a nerve right there. Oh, when you were talking about being still and pausing, I have had the hardest time being still and pausing. And you would think that'd be easy, right? I'm gonna leave my career, that's so demanding. I'm gonna switch gears, I'm gonna be home more, and I can't be still. Yeah, yeah.

Because everything you've been running from all these years shows up in the stillness, shows up in the silence. So you stay busy, we stay distracted and we think that's whole, right? We think we're healed, but you're just distracted and busy. And so now you get to be the nurse to yourself. Yeah. busy. And so now you get to be the nurse to yourself. Yeah? And retrain your nervous system because your nervous system doesn't know how to be settled. And so as you learn to settle, then you'll be able to show up for yourself and for your loved ones. And you are capable and deserving of that. It's just different. So the same way you would be patient with a new nurse

is how we have to be patient with ourselves because this thing is new, but it's doable. And you and your family deserve that. Wow. Thank you. You know, the question was, how do I start to rebuild myself? And I feel like now, like, you've given me, like, the question was how do I start to rebuild myself? And I feel like now you've given me the tools or the foundation to start getting to know Nastasha, start loving myself.

I think what happened here was an opportunity to see yourself from the point of view of what's really been happening with yourself. I really appreciated when you said, you're not bored, you're just not used to ease. Yes. And you think being still means I'm bored because I have to prove, I have to prove, I have to do, I have to show, I have to, you know. Yes. So getting to know yourself, right? And that, this is for the first time in your life that you get to actually discover you. And it's not too late. When I talk about returning back to ourselves or healing ourselves,

sometimes it's healing myself for the first time. So you're actually not trying to go back to a former self. You've never been this woman that you are creating now, but you get to build her. How beautiful. I'm so glad this is on tape because you're getting so many ah-has so quickly that you're not even gonna remember everything she's, I can see you're like,

okay, what did she just say? What did she, okay, yeah, it's all on tape, so you don't have to write it down, but I can see that it's hitting you, like you're like, huh, huh, huh. I, we got, as I said, we got you here. And we got you, we got you. I feel it.

And at it all, it's because I'm turning 40 and I'm, you know, this big number is coming, but I just feel like it's, it's just something I just, I have to deal with and it's hitting me fast. And, but I feel like you are just speaking to everything that I've been thinking But I guess scared to come to terms with it. And I feel like the big word is I'm scared. This is a scary space and It's okay to be afraid. It's okay to not have all the answers I want to just invite you to do a fill in the blank. So you're going to say, I release blank

so I can receive blank. I release this pressure to be perfect so I can be worthy and acceptance of myself and love myself. Well, I want to say you already are worthy. You already are worthy. Already. But that you can be open to accept your worthiness. Yes. That's what you want.

Yeah. Receive the truth of it. You want to be open to accept your worthiness because you have refused to see your value and your worthiness. And all of this happened in one Zoom call. This is an amazing thing. This is what happened to you today, Nastasia.

Thank you so much. Beautiful. Thank you for having me. This isasia. Thank you so much. Beautiful. Thank you for having me. This is fantastic. Thank you so much. Bless you. Lots to think about. Thank you. Thank you.

Yes. Thank you. Yeah. I think that, I think the reason why it's so interesting talking to Nastasia is that she represents so many people in the world. Correct? It's so true. Yes.

And that's how often we're trained to like chase significance. Like if I do enough things, I can outlast the statistics, I can outlast people's assumptions, I can outlast my own fears. Like we're trying to outrun ourselves. Yes. And so having to actually slow down so I can be whole instead of chasing wholeness. I think that's also so important, the question that you asked her, what is the story that you told yourself about being a teen mother?

Because she's still carrying that and still trying to prove to those women who were in the room when she was picking up her child, I'm good enough, I'm worthy enough, I'm valuable enough, all of that. And so then your armor becomes like your resume, right? You got the degrees, you got the position. And so now you're saying, if I lay down my armor, like, how will I know I'm enough, right? How will I know I'm worthy if you like strip these titles for me, you know? It's like the first time I moved, when I first moved to Los Angeles,

I moved here without a position. And before that that I had been like, oh Duke University Harvard Medical Center Princeton University, and so then I came here and it's like so who are you without all of that? You're enough Was it hard for you to accept that about yourself at first when I came here I was urgently urgently on this job hunt. And I always say to people, if I knew then what I know now, I would have enjoyed the break. Because that was like, just slow down and enjoy it. You know, you're going to find it. So that was hard because it was the first time in my life where I didn't have an affiliation, an institution. And so then, okay, without that, just who are you?

And so having to come to terms with that. Yes. Yeah. That's what she's dealing with too. That's right. Well, Portia is joining us. She's one of nine children. And I hear you shoulder the burden of being the most successful member of your family.

Tell us what's going on. Thank you so much. It's true. I am the eldest of nine and we were abandoned by our mother. So I have filled in that role as a mother to my siblings. My grandmother raised us, but she worked the entire time. So the relationship I have with my siblings is more of one of a mother-child. And now that I have my own child, I find myself feeling obligated. It's just what I'm trying to avoid is I always feel obligated to assist them in a lot of

their issues that they're dealing with. And recently, I wasn't able to show up for one of my closest siblings, my little sister, who she's like my daughter, and I just wasn't able to show up for one of my closest siblings, my little sister, who she's like my daughter, and I just wasn't able to show up for her. And the treatment that I got from her kind of just left me shocked and kind of heartbroken. When we're saying little sister, how old? I'm 41. She's 35. Okay.

So we're not talking about little kids here. Very important. Okay. Very important. Well, yeah, we're not talking about little. We're talking about grown women with their own children. I wanted to establish that, yes. She's a grown woman and I had a role, you know, all my mother's children have lived with me and it's like, but now it's like everybody's already had their chances, everybody's got to stand up. So I told her no and we're, she just kind of stopped talking to me and it just devastated me

and made me angry and I'm never angry with them. So I know I need to check myself and however I'm showing up for them because there's some kind of this, there's the balance is not right. So my question for Dr. Tamah is how do I balance my relationship with my siblings where I show up as a sibling and not as like a savior, or I feel obligated to my family so often and I don't want to feel that way because it makes me retreat sometimes. I become resentful.

Yes, and angry and I don't want to have that because I'm so much, but I also need to because it's showing up in my intimate relationships as well. So my question is, I need some balance and I need to stop feeling obligated. I don't know why I feel that way. You feel that way because there was not someone to fill in the gap and you filled in the gap, but you get to resign from being the mother-sister. You resign, you turn in your resignation, and now you will be solely the sister. And when we change and when we heal, some people don't like it.

When people have been depending on you, they will not appreciate the boundaries. They will not appreciate the no, but it is not for their benefit or for yours for you to continue to carry people who it's time that they learn the strength of their own legs and the strength of their own wings. Nothing you do will be enough for people who see you as their resource and don't see you as their sister.

So you decide- Stop right there. Stop right there. Stop right there. Stop right there. That nothing will ever be enough if they see you as their resource because it will always be what else you got, what else you got, what else can you do, what else you got. And that's what you're feeling and that's what you're feeling, and that's what you're resentful and angry about. But your past relationships with them has set this expectation. And so, Dr. T, I'm speaking from experience. I'm a member of this choir, okay?

And so, you have got to establish that those days are gone. Yes, this is what I used to do, and now this is what I'm willing to do. It is a decision on your part. And people are going to be mad. They're going to be mad. You're not going to get through it without somebody being mad. But you're doing this to save yourself and ultimately to save the relationships that are meant to last.

Right. What you all could actually be, so you get to redefine it. Now I will do some predictions for you. When you step back, some people will step up. Some people who always said, well, she'll handle it, she'll pay for it, she'll do it. Some people will step up

and then some things actually won't get done and you let it fall to the ground. Some people are so dependent on you that when you say, I'm not doing it anymore, some stuff will drop and that's okay. You gotta let it drop. Yeah. Yeah, I do.

And the obligation feeling is because I know that I'm blessed to be a blessing. Yes. I understand. Yeah. And I have taken myself into another area and I have a home where I also provide 24-hour care for young girls who grew up like myself. And that's where my energy is now because those are people who do not have families and things of that nature. But it's the sense of obligation that I really want to work on because if I show up in my family and something's not there, I just feel like I need to fix it

You know what I suffered from this for so long. I literally have journals Filled with the question of what do I owe? What do I owe and when is it enough? Yeah, what do I owe and when is it enough? And can you help her answer that question? Yes, absolutely. So, one, you talked about blessed to be a blessing, which is beautiful. And I want to ask, are you a person of faith? I am.

Okay. I want to say to you that God, your Creator, did not make you just to be an instrument for other people's relief. You are not just a vehicle for other people. And I know we like to talk about God used me up. God says, I'm not a user. I'm not here to use you just to bless others. It's actually to flow into you so you can get from your overflow.

When you are nourished, then it won't drain you or empty you to share with those girls in the home that you share with. But for too long, we are made to believe that we must say yes to everything and that's the Christian thing to do. And I want to tell you and Oprah on today, the holiness of no. No is a sacred word. It is a sacred word.

And so you are a temple. Did you see Porsche go, hmm? Yeah. I heard that. Let the church say amen. Amen. Amen. The holiness of no, I like that. Let the church say, amen. Amen. Amen. Amen. The holiness of no. I like that. The holiness of no. Yes.

The holiness of no. Because we're made to feel guilty for our no. We're made to feel guilty that, like, you have to say yes to everyone and everything to be sufficient, to be a good person. That's why you said, how much is enough? How much is enough? Why do I have to keep proving I'm a good person? Yes.

And so now, you know, you get to say yes to yourself. You get to say yes to your relationships. You get to say yes to the young children, the girls you have taken in. But it starts with the nourishment of your own soul. So I wanna invite you to start doing morning rituals where you feed your spirit before you start the day so that you do not go through the day running on empty. Feed you first.

This made some sense to you today? It's an alignment where my heart's been, so I'm really grateful. Yeah. I feel blessed. Beautiful. Do you believe you have the courage now, the courage for the holiness of no? I know it. Yes, I know.

I'm taking the little steps and hearing it from, of course, Oprah, my fairy godmother. Of course, it just makes no sense. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. I appreciate you all. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you, Porche. When we come back, I'll ask Dr. Tama

what it means to live a meaningful life. I want you to think about that question too. That's next. Welcome back. I thank you for your company here on the Oprah Podcast. Dr. Tama is about to explain how to be intentional when it comes to healing the relationships in our lives So you write about the co-creating joy you say it's an inside job That's right for an individual and a collective job

for Relationships it is co-create joy with the people you love. That's right. We have to be intentional so that we don't take relationships for granted or take people for granted. Sometimes we're like, oh, I know those are my folks, but we turn to them more when we're in crisis or in need or we neglect the relationship because we figure they'll always be there. So we have to be intentional about engaging and creating moments and memories with each other that are joy-filled.

We have to do that on purpose and protect time for it. Well, this is the thing. You're a therapist. You're a professor. Yes. You're a minister because you have preached here today. All right. Yeah.

How do you describe a life well lived, a well lived existence that, and what are the guideposts? What does a meaningful life look like when you're operating for matters of the heart? Yes. So for matters of the heart, I have to connect it to my first book, which is Homecoming, because living for me, a well-nourished life is being at home with yourself, being rooted and grounded from the truth of you. And my dear friend and colleague, Dr. Shelly Harrell, describes it as soulfulness. That if I live from a soulful, authentic place, then I am fully alive. And being fully alive and showing up means that I have love for myself, that I have love for

other people, that I let that guide the ways in which I show up. And I also, there is fruit to my soulfulness. When I am living from an authentic place, there is impact in the world around me. And so where's your fruit, right? If I'm living rooted and grounded in the truth of who I am, and that fruit is not a fruit that drains me or depletes me, when I'm living my path, that actually renews me and restores me. And so that's the gift of it for me.

And my fruitfulness and my soulful living won't look like somebody else's. It's like I meet some people and they say, oh my goodness, you're a trauma survivor and a trauma psychologist. That must be so draining. And I say, no, this work leaves me in awe. Oh my goodness, you're a trauma survivor and a trauma psychologist. That must be so draining. And I say, no, this work leaves me in awe. Like I'm inspired to be able to walk with people through that, like healing process. But for somebody else, it would be draining.

Some people who work in a corporate space, they get fed by it because they're called to it. Other people are like, I couldn't do that work. Right. When you talk about doing like all these interviews for some people that sounds like, oh my gosh, you have to talk to people all day. And you're like, that's my life. Energizing, stimulating for me. Yes. So live from a soulful, authentic, true place and in a way that it is regenerative. Right. That you are fed even as you pour.

Ooh, I'm gonna end on that. You are fed even as you pour. Yes. Thank you, Dr. Tamar Bryant, for what feels like sacred wisdom. Well, you come at it naturally. Yeah. Okay? And I thank you to all of my guests today, Natasha and Stevie and Avery and Porche. I so appreciate each of you bringing your whole heart to the conversation about matters of the heart. Dr. Tamer's book is called Matters of the Heart, Healing Your Relationship with Yourself

and Those You Love, and it's available anywhere you buy books. And Dr. Tamer reads the audio version herself. Yes. So it's like having an ongoing podcast with you. And those of you who want to subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. And don't miss a week. Go well everybody. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Oh, I'm so- Appreciate it. Go well everybody. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Oh, I'm so Hey, hey, hey. I said I have to. Have to preach it. You can subscribe to the Oprah podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.