The People, Process, & Progress Podcast - Applying Jordan Peterson's "12 Rules for Life" to the Project Manager Profession | PPP #69

Episode Date: March 7, 2021

In this episode I share the "12 Rules for Life" from Jordan B. Peterson's book "12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos" and apply the principals from each to the Project Management world.

It took a long time to settle on a title, 12 Rules for Life, an Antidote to Chaos. Why did that one rise up above all others? First and foremost, because of its simplicity. It indicates clearly that people need ordering principles and that chaos otherwise beckons. We require rules, standards, values, alone and together. We're pack animals, beasts of burden. We must bear a load to justify our miserable existence. We require routine and tradition. That's order. Order can become excessive, and that's not good.

But chaos can swamp us, so we drown. That is also not good. We need to stay on the straight and narrow path. Each of the 12 rules of this book and their accompanying essays therefore provide a guide to being there. Quote, there is a dividing line between order and chaos. That's where we are simultaneously stable enough, exploring enough, transforming enough, repairing enough, and cooperating enough. It's there we find the meaning that justifies life and its inevitable suffering. Perhaps if we lived properly, we would be able to tolerate the weight of our own self-consciousness. Perhaps, if we lived properly, we could withstand the

knowledge of our own fragility and morality without the sense of a grieved victimhood that produces first resentment, then envy, and then the desire for vengeance and destruction. Perhaps, if we lived properly, we wouldn't have to turn to totalitarian certainty to shield ourselves from the knowledge of our own insufficiency and ignorance. Perhaps we could come to avoid those pathways to hell, and we have seen in terrible 20th century just how real hell can be. I hope that these rules and their accompanying essays will help people understand what they already know, that the soul of the individual eternally hungers for the heroism of genuine being, and that the willingness to take on that responsibility is identical to the decision to live a meaningful life. If we each live properly, we will collectively flourish. Best wishes to you all as you proceed through these pages. Dr. Jordan B. Peterson, clinical psychologist and professor

of psychology. And that, as he calls it, is the overture from Dr. Peterson in the beginning of his book, 12 Rules for Life, An Antidote to Chaos, that came out in January 2018. And on this episode 69 of the People Process Progress podcast, we'll review Peterson's 12 rules through the lens of a project manager and team leader. Before we get started, let's lay those ground rules. Please silence your cell phones, hold all sidebar conversations to a minimum, and we'll get started with this episode of the People Process Progress podcast in 3, 2, 1. So jumping right into this episode, again, Jordan Peterson's 12 rules for life through the lens of a project manager and kind of my two cents, how I have applied these

myself from listening to him, seeing him in person. I have not read every word of his book, but I have that on my list of to do's. It seems to be the thing. I get summaries and breakdowns, and there is tons of stuff. I'll share those in the posting for this episode, but let's get into it. They're very practical, as he states in that opening, but very cerebral. He developed these through a lot of research, but the first one is stand up straight with your shoulders back. This speaks to confidence through going through life, looking like you're confident, feeling like you're confident. There are mental connections to this. If you're slouched over, looking down at your phone or just in that really, you can tell when you look at somebody whether they're confident and maybe they're having a bad day or what's going on,

but the posture works. There's also a safety factor. So tip for folks out there, when you're out and about, don't put your head down with your headphones on and not pay attention and be kind of slumped over walking down the street. Look up, shoulders back, pay attention. I tell my kids this all the time. It portrays confidence. As project managers who are going to go to a group of people we may or may not know with a bunch of money and some time and all these different factors, we need to be confident

as well. So Peterson's first rule is stand up straight with your shoulders back. My take on that for project managers, portray confidence to your project team and your organization from start to finish. Your body language is key. Your posture on these Zoom calls or Skype or Teams or whatever program you're using out there and your facial expressions matter, right? So try and have, as Jocko Willink says, normal face. And it's hard to hold back emotion sometimes, depending on how the meeting's going, but more so in person, or even as we're

sitting there, head up, shoulders back, portray that confidence, let folks know that you are there to help the team, to facilitate this process, to get us through to closing or whatever phase gate you're going to do next. And you're going to be successful and you're going to help that team be successful. Peterson's second rule is treat yourself like you would someone you're responsible for helping. And this really means look at yourself honestly and not just treat yourself like just be nice to each other, but you have to really be honest. And this is a hard challenge of looking at your own flaws, your weaknesses, your strengths, maybe even to build on and really looking at that. And it's not just being nice to yourself, but being honest with yourself. And you all know there's a

difference. I know there is. I know when I stay up too late, maybe when I have an extra drink, maybe when I'm lazy and I don't work out. I know where I failed and I know where I need to pick up on that when I maybe don't do as good a job here on the show in all facets. And so for a project manager, I, because I've answered a lot of these questions lately on Reddit and LinkedIn in particular, is my advice for project managers, whether you're just starting, you've been in it, or you're looking to make a change and get into project management or go a different course is to choose the project manager career path that is best for your lifestyle, not what looks best on a resume. And I say that because a lot of people say, oh, I need to get my PMP or cap them another certification. I'm going

to jump into the field. I'm going to make all this money and I'll be happy, but you won't, right? You're chasing a credential that's really studying and regurgitating knowledge to get it. It's not getting you real experience and dealing with people. Some people are chasing the money. Some people will do that. Some people won't. Let's just be honest. For a lot of the questions I see, they're from either new folks or folks with not a lot of experience and they want to jump right in and get a lot of money because they have a credential. Well, it doesn't work that way or it shouldn't work that way. You should have experience. The credential should be icing on the cake that says, okay, here's a recognizable thing. And you have to put your time in as a new

person, right? So if you're looking to get into project management, or you're looking to change the path of that, think about what's going to make you happy, because not every project management job is going to make you happy. And sometimes we need to grumble through a little bit, but we really need to look at that. And as Peterson says, take this personal and professional challenge. Think about what our strengths and weaknesses are. If you're a person who's not comfortable going into the large groups or leading teams or speaking up a little bit more

or being able to sit back and let other people talk things through, then figure out where you think you may fit and then ask other people, right? Reddit is a good platform. LinkedIn is a good platform. If you're, you know, in a project management office, talk to folks that have been there a little bit longer in the field a little bit longer, collect all those tips. But first it starts with you looking at yourself. The third of the rules is make friends with people who want the best for you. Because people can demand the best from you, which is a great way that Peterson states that is, you know, you want to be close to folks that expect you to do a good job,

just like you want to work somewhere where the expectation is high that the project managers are going to have a high level of competence. So for me, my equation of this in the project manager world is build relationships and find allies among stakeholders and project leaders, as well as again, you know, have the expectation for yourself and others that we're going to perform high. But for me, you know, we don't have to agree with everybody on projects, we don't have to honestly like each other on projects. But we do have to work together, we have to have expectations of each other that we're going to do well. And we're going to work together and we're going to get things done.

And we're going to move the project forward and the organization forward and ourselves forward. And it also helps to have support from that C-suite, from the chief, insert whatever title there, to help us move forward that do demand the best for us, that are bought into our project management. That makes a huge difference. So that can be a challenge too, depending on what your organization is like, is do you have support from the top to have a good intake process, to have good report outs, to have good standards of how you're facilitating and communicating and doing change management and all those kinds of things. The fourth of Peterson's 12 rules for life is compare yourself with who you were yesterday, not with who someone else is today. And this has to do with envy, right? If you're always looking at somebody else and you're envious of what they're doing instead of looking at what you're doing or not doing, then that's not going to be as good

for you in life. And you need things that are above you. So you do need to set lofty goals, right? Set a goal for I want, you know, mine when I first started podcasting was I'd like to have, you know, 10,000 downloads. So people, you know, that listen to this or my guests quite a few times. And I've been fortunate to hit that goal and surpass a little bit. But that's just one example, right? There's many other examples, folks, that let's say I say I want to be an Olympic power lifter. Well, I'm 47 and I'm probably not going to do that, but I can set that goal and then I can lift weights and I can get stronger. And it's just one example. So for me as project managers, when we're in this profession, we shouldn't get bogged down

by other success. We should instead focus on how we can improve ourselves with each project. Don't just chase the next promotion. Do set your guidelines. So if you're an associate project manager, set your goal for being a project manager. If you're a project manager do set your guidelines. So if you're an associate project manager, set your goal for being a project manager. If you're a project manager, set your goal for being a senior or a program manager, the director or whatever, but you've got to still work your way through the tiers of project management. And you can't do it through jealousy or, well, this person did this or that, and I think I'm better at this or that. It's got to be based on your own competence, on knowing that I have hit this level. In fact, I've hit this level plus the next level. Now I'm going to really grind and go

for that promotion. And that's a big deal, right? And develop your own style. You don't have to be like another project manager that is successful. So if another project manager is really loud, not spoken, or has a certain style, you don't have to change your style to do that. Look at what are the other things they can do and maybe you can adapt some. But also as part of this self-evaluation that really these rules for life have to do is really looking at ourselves as are there opportunities if you're a project manager to speak up a little bit more or if you are over outspoken to sit back and listen more. So many different options to look at there, right? So compare yourself with who you were yesterday,

not who somebody else is as a PM. Don't worry about other people's success. Just make yourself better with each project. Number five, do not let your children do anything that makes you dislike them. And as Peterson said in many of his talks, many parents are like, well, I would never dislike my children,

which is not true, right? People do things where we don't like them. That doesn't mean we don't love them and care about them. But as he says, you know, if we dislike them, other people will dislike our kids, right? And what we want to do is set our kids up so they know how to act socially and set them up for success in life. Because if they can act socially, and Peterson speaks to this in a few different platforms, if they are developed where other kids want to play with them and adults enjoy their company and they're good with people when you're not there, then you've been successful. For me as a project manager, we need to allow our teams to storm, but we need to do that with

the mandate that there's civility among teammates, right? So we talked about teams that form and they storm and then hopefully they norm and then they perform. And we need to let the storming happen a little bit. But we need to do it where people at least treat each other with some level of respect, right? So sometimes teams need to argue. Sometimes we need to enable crucial conversations. Maybe we're not talking to each other.

We're keeping kind of things close to the chest that really, if we talked it through, would actually make us all better. Or that for some reason, maybe we have different company logos and we feel like we have to separate information. There's so many different reasons that people don't talk to each other like they should on projects openly. But what we need to not do is enable rudeness, right? We need to make sure kind of the basics right let folks finish their thought don't interrupt watch your facial expressions like we talked about earlier you know just treat each other with respect whether you like that person or not and make sure that the team among itself has some level of respect and you as a project

manager can facilitate that you as, as I did and do before these podcasts, can set the ground rules, right? If you know you're going to have a crucial conversation, if you've got leaders in there, just say it out loud. We are going to talk through this, but we are going to do it by working together, by being civil with each other. This is tough conversations, but we need to have them and just make that expectation known. The sixth rule from Peterson is put your house in perfect order before you criticize the world. So some of it's pretty straightforward, like it sounds like, but we also need to build our ambition with humility, right? So let's say we're going for that senior position. We're doing this. We didn't need to do it by bragging. And if you get it, and oh, man,

look at me, I got this promotion, I make so much more money, or I'm allowed to be part of this group or that group, we need to look and be humble with ourselves. And as a project manager, for me, we need to look back on our own successes and failures as a PM before we judge other PMs too harshly. Right there, every project manager makes mistakes, just like every human. Every project manager misses something, right? Because we're not perfect. We're not the subject matter experts in all the parts of the project that we're facilitating. And quite frankly, no project stays in the green, meaning I'm good to go. We're on track forever. None. I've never seen that happen before in my life. They're going to go to yellow, whether it's at risk,

they're going to have some areas that are red that are critical or whatever measure that you all may use out there. And that's fine. Be honest with yourself, with your team, talk about why it's that condition, how you're going to make it better, and then just move forward. Right? So work to put it in perfect order, the project or your house, but be honest on why it is not in order that has to do again, with this self evaluation theme that Peterson speaks to, and that I truly believe in both professionally and personally is what am I screwing up? What am I doing? Well, am I being honest with myself? Am I trying to sugarcoat what's going on? We don't need to do

that with ourselves or our teams. And with our teams and with you know, our communication as I spoke to earlier, we can do that with crucial conversations, but we can do it with respect. Number seven, pursue what is meaningful, not what is expedient. And so this is what Peterson has said in some of his talks is kind of one of the core ethos or the core ethos of these 12 rules, right? We need to put the time in and work and be honest on what is meaningful for our lives and for the world. And if you listen to or read Peterson, you'll understand that through his vast knowledge

and education and experience, he realizes what we do is not just about us. We affect the world and we may not even know it, right? One decision, one good decision one bad decision kind of that butterfly effect thing so you know we need to do what what is meaningful and for for me as a project manager who has certainly failed who's been successful who's everything in between my take on on pursue what's meaningful not what is expedient is to add time to the schedule ask for the extra resources, request the expanded scope,

and insist on the highest possible quality throughout the project. In other words, we need to know what good is look like. We need to hold people to a high standard to get there. We shouldn't just be checking boxes just to get it done or because it was easier or, as Peterson says, expedient. And remember for us as project managers, every project that we work on is our legacy. Right? Think about that. Every project you work on is your legacy. So were you just trying to be expedient to get it done and get on to the next one? Or were you invested in your team and in yourself and in your organization to do the best that you could? Depending on the industry you're in, healthcare, public safety, infrastructure, being expedient can actually cause a lot of money, safety, lives.

So at times, expediency is actually a negative thing, whereas meaningfulness will make a real difference. Number eight from Peterson's rules is tell the truth or at least don't lie. And this connects to number seven, as he says, you know, you can't pursue what's meaningful without telling the truth, both to ourselves and to those around us. We have to be honest with ourselves. We don't corrupt our own perceptions. That's a great statement that he uses. Don't be thinking, well, I'm, you know, it's not my fault. And they, right, that they, we've talked about that here.

You've probably heard that a lot of folks use the word they when something goes wrong. They didn't tell me. You must not have done this. Why didn't you? And on and on and on, right? So I think you get it. I get it. For us as project managers, I think we need to be as objective as a project manager

because we don't own stuff anyway. And what I mean by that is why not be honest about what's going on with the project? One, you'll get more help. It won't be as, quote, bad down the road if all of a sudden, oh, we're in the red. Why didn't we tell you this two weeks ago? Just be objective. Report out like you should. Sometimes we can't tell all the information

on a project, like say we're part of the budget and not everybody needs to know every line item of the budget or there's going to be an organizational change and you're a part of that and it has to do with downsizing or something else. Sometimes you can't just tell that. But the difference between being truthful versus lying is, you know, yes, there's going to be some changes. Yes, we're meeting about this, but you don't have to give all the information, right? And that's just one example. Sometimes as project managers, we do have information or intelligence about people or the projects or what's happening. And as I mentioned just a second ago, you know, can we speak to the fact that things are happening, that we are having conversations, that we are focusing on these?

Yes. And sometimes that does suck, right? As a team member, someone asks a good question and it has to do with the topic that maybe is sensitive. And they're told, yes, we're working on that. We'll let everybody know. Well, nobody likes that. But you know what? Sometimes not putting it all out there is better because that will cause rumors or panic,

and that's a whole other issue, versus yes, we do know that there are changes. Yes, I mean, think about COVID, all the companies that were impacted negatively. Yes, there are going to be some changes due to COVID, whether it's downsizing your schedules or whatever it is, and we'll let you know as soon as we can, as soon as we get the details hammered out. So I'm not lying to you. I'm not telling you everything. So that's both truthful. Again, we facilitate projects. We don't own stuff. So there's no reason for us to not be objective about what is happening. And it's the best thing to do for the whole project. Number nine, assume that the person you are listening to might know something you don't.

This is respect, but it's also recognition of our own ignorance, as Peterson says, to know that I need to be humble and know that I don't know everything. And this is a great thing. What's more important, he says in some of his lectures, what you know or what you don't know, right? And there's a lot we don't know. And as soon as we can get our egos out of our way, and my take on this is pretty much just like that, is to subjugate our egos as project managers when others offer to help and keep your mind, ears, and heart open to the feedback, right? No project manager knows everything. We shouldn't get jaded when folks come in and it's, I've been both a person that's going to help a project or a person that's

been sent help on a project. And we need to quickly go, okay, what am I missing? How can we integrate these folks? How can I work with other people? You know, how can I help when I show up and build bridges, right? I'm the outsider that was asked and in incident management, that's essentially what we did. We went to someone else's backyard that decided or someone for them decided they were overwhelmed and we would go in and help them organize the search or help. Hey, we have this huge fire that's blocked wide and how do we take care of our people? Because they realized they couldn't do it. They subjugated their ego and as project managers, we have to do that as well without being jaded. We need to take a breath and we need to listen. We need to be an active listener while we get that, right? Everyone's had a conversation with someone that's jaded and

doesn't want to hear it, whether it's their ego, their old school or whatever it is. And they just sit there with their arms crossed and they huff and puff and they technically listen, but they're not really engaged. That's also not a way to do it. Are you technically listening? Yes. But is your ego out of the way? No, no, no, it's not. So, you know, assume that folks know stuff that we don't. And that's true about every person, let alone the people on your project team. I mean, us as project managers facilitate the process. We have subject matter experts whose purpose is to actually do the work and we rely on them to do it. We're just making sure that we're all talking to each other and we're staying on track in a few different things. Peterson's number 10 is to be

precise in our speech. So what does this mean? Does it mean just speak clearly? Not necessarily, not from him. And he uses this anecdote as knock on the door will open or ask and you will receive. So be very specific for me as a project manager. And for him, it's, you know, if you set your goals specifically, if you have this certain ask, then you can get there easier. If you're vague and you dance around things, then you cannot, right? Or you don't have that honesty we talked about with yourself or others before. And as a project manager, that means to me, we need to be very specific in our deliverables and our asks. Before we head down the road of the project, we need to know the objectives we're

working toward. We need to know what the outcome is supposed to be, or at least get closer to it as we work through it. And when we ask for stuff, we need to be very clear on what we need, when, why, how long, et cetera. As clear as we are as project managers, we need to be very clear on what we need, when, why, how long, etc. As clear as we are as project managers, we're not. We can explain something over and over again. We can get experts to explain it. At some point, someone's going to miss it. That's fine.

Let's make sure we're precise in our speech, precise in our explanation, precise in our communications. And there's a cycle that I like to follow. This was part of my leadership lessons from Gettysburg and beyond. It was the 10th episode I ever did under the between the slides moniker. It's still on this feed, so go check that out. It's to communicate, which is an intake of communication, to understand what's going on, to decide what you want to do or what should be done or what you're going to do to help get something done and then communicate that back out. It's C-U-D-C, communicate, understand, decide, communicate. So that's kind of a little method that has to do with being precise in our speech, with asking for stuff, with understanding what we're asking for.

And if we do those things and combine that with clearly laid out actionable plans and resource requests, then we will be precise in our speech and have deliverables that are more effective and our asks will be answered maybe more quickly and efficiently. Rule 11 from Peterson is do not bother children when they are skateboarding. This one's pretty cool. So this has to do with a discussion of courage and encouragement for our kids right so when our kids are skateboarding or riding a bike without a helmet or climbing something climbing a tree or doing something and i've certainly fallen prey to this and really had to work on not just grabbing them up or saying stop that that's

dangerous that doesn't build them up when my boys are wrestling when my two youngest who get after it and wrestle each other hard all the time i don't stop them unless there's biting or and they don't do that but you know if you're breaking the rules and doing something that's different but if you're just getting after it and you're working hard or you're riding that skateboard like my oldest likes to do now longboard sometimes helmet sometimes not we got to let them do it to some extent and to me i think there should still be some guardrails. But Peterson speaks to this because the world is a very hard place, right? And so if we soften our children and don't let them do dangerous things, when they get out to

the world, it's going to be harder for them. And as difficult as things are, he says, you're up to the challenge. That's what we're doing. We say, this is hard. This is dangerous. And we let them do some of that stuff. We also need to say, you can do this. You're up to the challenge. You're going to get better. You're going to work hard. You're going to fall. You're going to get scrapes. You're going to get hurt, maybe some stitches, but you're going to be able to then go into the world and be successful. For me, I correlate this on teams to, as project managers, we need to empower our teams to execute as they know how, rather than hovering over them at every turn. And you all have probably seen it. And there's tons of memes and things on all the different platforms about micromanagement and good leaders do this or

that. Hovering over our teams, being in every meeting at every second when they're there, when they're supposed to lead those or it's their group, doesn't help them grow. We need to lift our teams up, especially when they do well. When they do well, we need to encourage that and let them know, I saw that. That was hard, just like Peterson says in some of his speeches, but you all did this. You all worked so hard. You all put these plans together. You all communicated the task. You all followed up, et cetera, et cetera. We need to empower those individuals on our teams for success and not make them too dependent on us as leaders.

It's just like the whole, which I've talked about before. If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. If you teach them to fish, you feed him for a lifetime. Well, one, your teams could do this probably to some extent without you because they're the experts, right? So what are you actually going to tell them? You're going to hover over them because you want control. Not very helpful.

Don't make them dependent. If you are the direct leader, my suggestion is let your teams do their job and ask them when they need help. Step in, certainly, when it looks like they're not going to ask for help when they should. And sometimes we need to expose our teams to a little bit of risk. Being 100% risk averse is not good on projects or in life. Risks can be accepted, remember. They can be mitigated or they can even be taken advantage of. So a good statement that I learned in incident management was trust but verify. That's a leadership thing. It's also good there. So I trust you that you're going to do your thing. I'm going to check in and I'm going

to verify that we're delivering, but I'm going to trust you to do it. And I'm going to lift you up and empower you to do it. As we come in on 30 minutes here, I'm going to go over the 12th, which is a little different. If you've never heard Peterson's 12 rules, you'll be surprised. Before we go to this, I do want to ask, please check out peopleprocessprogress.com, peopleprocessprogress at gmail.com if you have any questions, concerns, feedback, anything you want to hear about on the show. And I am on Instagram at peopleprocessprogress. There is also a Facebook page.

Just look up people process progress there. And let me know what you think. I post images and summaries of episodes in each of those places. And I appreciate you all reaching out. So what's number 12? Pet a cat when you encounter one on the street. It's a meditation on fragility, Peterson says. So sometimes we are so focused on what we do or maybe we're suffering and we're looking at what's going on this whole year or this month or this week or these days.

And we're so ingrained in that and we're in such a dark place that what we do when we don't know what to do, he's talking about you're going down the street and you see one and you're overwhelmed. Take time to appreciate it and not focus on all the stuff that's overwhelming you. As a project manager, I had a couple of thoughts on this one. The first one is kind of practical where it's break down seemingly overwhelming objectives into manageable tasks. Right. So let's say you have a huge project. It's multimillion dollars. It's maybe even multi-year. How in the world do we get to do that?

Well, we look at the big picture. We look at the objectives. We start breaking it down into tasks and subtasks and all that kind of stuff. That's a practical way to get through there. You gather your team. You help your team and your experts who we've spoken about earlier in these rules to break down the larger portions. How do we do this? How do we

get better? Let your subject matter experts guide what you do. Ask for help if you don't know, right? If you don't know how to manage a project of this type, ask other people who've done it before. Nothing wrong with that. That's how we, you know, we've heard don't reinvent the wheel. They probably have templates and tools and techniques and all those good stuff we like to talk about in project management. And breathe. The other thing I thought about for this is, and I've spoken to this a lot, is we as project managers, especially these days, are on calls all the time. That means largely we're sitting in front of a computer, in front of a camera.

I suggest thinking about a standing desk. Certainly, as I have on the show before, suggest regular exercise. That is one of the best coping mechanisms for the stress that's out there, whether it's weights, yoga, body weight stuff, walking, whatever. But to start your day, during the day, to end your day, whenever you do it, we need to take breaks and disconnect. More and more meetings run together. Meetings take over lunch.

Meetings take over the evening. Don't let that happen. Right? Make the cat on the street that you take time to pet to not focus on your worries and your stress be you. Take care of yourself. Step away. Take a breath. Don't go to all those meetings if you don't absolutely need to be in them. And honestly, not everyone needs to be in every meeting. I hope this has been helpful. It's again,

Dr. Peterson's work is pretty amazing. I enjoy it. But these 12 rules are very practical based and also at times make us really look at ourselves and maybe we don't want to. That's true for us in our personal lives. That's certainly true for me as a project manager and knowing how I like to do things, but then how can I adapt to how others do things? And how can I, you know, adapt to this team that's different from the other team before, right? We always need to adapt. We always need to be honest with ourselves, set realistic expectations, work toward high expectations, but, you know, be honest on what we are and aren't meeting. I hope I'm meeting the expectations of you, all the listeners. I thank you so much for reaching out. It's again, really cool to talk to or connect with or chat with people all across the world.

Stay safe out there, everyone. Wash your hands and Godspeed.