The People, Process, & Progress Podcast - Come Celebrate International Women's Day 2020 with My Wife Wendi Pannell and Me | PPP #10

Episode Date: March 9, 2020

In 'Each for Equal with Wendi Pannell,' I celebrate International Women's Day 2020 with one of the most powerful women I know, my wife, Wendi Pannell.

Hey everybody, welcome to the People Process Progress Podcast Episode 10. Today we have a very special episode on this International Women's Day 2020 with a very special woman in my life, my wife of 18 years, Wendy Pinault. Welcome to the show, Wendy. Thanks, Kevin. Yes, weird, because we're first guests in the studio, which means in our home office, in our house. But again, in keeping with the show, I want folks to learn more about Wendy that don't already know her. So if you already know her, awesome.

If you don't, bonus, you'll get to learn more about her. And as we do, talk about the process, particularly on International Women's Day, the process that Wendy's undergone for her professional life mixed with personal life, being a successful wife, mom, businesswoman, and then share her progress, share her strengths, her failures, whatever that we get into, but to help everyone from the young woman just getting out of college or getting into the workforce, whether you went to college or not, or folks that have been in the workforce for a bit and just really share some tips, tricks, and lessons learned.

So, Wendy, I know your story a bit after 18 years, but welcome to the show again. Where did you grow up, which is quite a few places, but share with us where you're from and where you grew up. Yeah, so I was born in Shenandoah Valley, so started in Virginia, but we moved around quite a bit because my dad was in the nuclear world. So whenever someone asks me where I grew up, it's kind of hard to say, and I rattle off Virginia, South Carolina, Missouri, Massachusetts, Washington State. But for most of my formidable years, I would say it was in Virginia, in Broadway, Virginia, sixth grade through graduation. Nice.

Yeah. Very cool. And he was in the Navy? He was also in the Navy, yes. So we've got some strong Navy. As you all may remember, I was in the Navy. Wendy's father was in the Navy. My father was in the Navy. My grandmother was in the Navy.

Her grandfather was in the Navy. So who got Navy? We might as well share how we met, right? Can I include that right up front? Yeah. So our dads have known each other for 40-something years. And we'll get into this probably in your story, coming out of college getting into your professional life but I was getting out of the navy or out just out of the navy I think getting out or just you were just out and still in the area still in

Roslyn Virginia working on IT so I'd gotten away from being a corpsman got into IT dad says hey my friend's daughter is in the area and of course is a single guy. Not everyone jumps at that, I'll say. I was into hanging out, big time into video games. That's a whole other episode probably. Video games and their effect on marriage or not getting married. And then one day we met

Renaissance Festival, so if you've seen any background pictures of the show and you see the battle axe on the wall, that's from there. And then we got married not that long afterwards within the year yeah we met in october we were engaged in february and married in september so less than 12 months right and i touched on that um in one of the previous episodes of four day 2001 2001, so 4 Days After September 11th Attacks, which, you know, again, thank you very much to our family and friends that drove down and pretty amazing. So grew up in Broadway, grew up in Missouri a little bit and a few other places. And then you wound up going to where at school?

Virginia Tech. So we are back in my stomping ground. Right. We're going to cheers it up a little bit here. Cheers to Women's Day. Cheers to Blacksburg. And Hokies. Go Hokies.

Absolutely. And so before you got to college, you were a cheerleader in high school, did the high school thing, right? Yeah. Interestingly, kind of the same mascot in high school and college yeah so turkey theme um did you know you wanted to uh major in something technology wise no like information systems or anything no so i want to back up just one second in high school so i think this was formidable for me. I tried out for the softball team. The first year I didn't make it because I had mono.

The second year I was like, I've been an assistant. You carry balls and bats and stuff. The next year I tried out. I didn't make it and the coach told me, Wendy, you're just not an athlete. So there were conversations with my parents. And I think that's important

because I still think about that today. So for me, lesson is watch what you say to kids because they hold on to that stuff. Went to tech. Actually, I was convinced I wanted to go into hotel restaurant management. So I actually started my major in hotel restaurant management. Did an internship my first, after my freshman year in Georgia during the 96 Olympics and came home and changed my major. Because I realized when I was there that my success was going to be dependent

on people that didn't really want to be doing their job, right? Housekeepers. Respect your housekeepers in a hotel. You know, the whole restaurant area. And it was also tough because it was the Olympics, but, you know, no one just seemed very happy. And so I kind of saw that after my internship and came back and changed my major. Do you incorporate that from seeing the environment of the people that worked there? So the workforce isn't happy, right?

Super hard job. People probably do not treat them well all the time leave the room with wearing them whatever yeah um do you think about that now as a you know an executive leader kind of person so you know that that level of seeing a workforce that's not happy that drove you away from that industry that now in information technology hey there's our dog yes so i definitely would take that experience and bring it into probably my job now more than ever nice um so yeah i guess that's kind of jumping ahead to get into there kind of where you are now so you decided yep that's not for me so how did you get into computers like your dad was early into computers i think we had some early adopting you know old school macs and pcs and floppy disks and all that good stuff so did that help drive you

into your it was it was just management science and information technology as i read your diploma on the wall yes um my dad was very supportive of me. So he had a home business, basically, and some engineers in our basement. And so at lunchtime in the summer, my brother and I would go down there and play video games with him. My dad also let me play with one of what I think is the first laptop computers. It was a grid. I'm not sure I knew what I was doing, but just it was around and so I was very comfortable with it I also still remember writing out hello world in one of my like sixth seventh or eighth grade classes so it was just something easy was it like an early programming thing yeah I gotcha yeah but I don't remember kind of what the um who kind of said hey management

science might be a way that you want to go i will tell you i took advantage of um like the counselors there to kind of maybe help guide me in one direction because i was going from one school to a completely different school so they're completely different professors and buildings at tech did you have to apply to change or no yes yeah gotcha so i mean that's another i think process evolution and kind of the process in education is right a lot of us think oh i want to do this one thing then have an experience or get better advice or just change your mind or get a gut feeling or something yeah and then to know okay so that's going to be a process just changing so make sure because you only probably want to do that so many times as well, I would imagine, right? Like changing your major or jumping around or.

Yeah, change is hard and it's exhausting, especially as you get older. But the biggest thing, and I tell anyone that I can, especially young adults, try it out. You have the opportunity in college to try it. Don't go home and blow your summer. I mean, you can do fun internships, but try out what you think you want to do because it's. I mean, you can do fun internships, but try out what you think you want to do because it's, I mean, for me, it was a game changer. And what year was that of college? 1995. What year in college were you? Oh, it was after my freshman year. Okay. Yeah. Oh, so pretty early on. Gotcha. And did you, were you able to transfer a lot of those credits to those? Yeah. Cause everything the first few years is such basics, like weed out classes anyways.

Gotcha. Yeah. And then you worked locally for a bit, right, at the bank here while you were in school? Yeah, I worked at Dietz, which is an ice cream shop. Best thing ever. And then a few years into college, I got a job at Bank of Blacksburg. Oh, nice. Yeah.

Very cool, which is neat, because coming back here, you're running into some of the same people, right? Yes. Which worked, you know, helped in our transition coming from the Richmond area. Yeah. That's pretty awesome. And that was probably another influence in my life. So again, I was not as a teller. I was working in the loan department and Bank of Blacksburg, you know, work with some awesome women there and a gentleman, um, who, you know, saw that I was in school, but I showed up, I worked hard, I did good things. So actually before I graduated, I'd gotten a job and that's kind of what you did back then as you got a job. Before I graduated, I got laid off because the company was downsizing. So they had hired me, give me a bonus and then laid me off for,

I actually graduated. This, this was your, like an it job. Yes. Yeah. So I was going to move to North Carolina actually. Um,

and so I didn't have a job going out of school. So the, um, president at the bank kind of heard my woe is me story and helped me find a job. So he connected me with someone who's very famous around here, Mary Miller at Interactive Design and Development here in Blacksburg. And yeah, so I started my career actually in a local company. Oh, that's awesome. See, the journey of getting to where you want to be is, you know, a bunch of hops in different industries that you can still apply, you know, in whatever industry you begin.

And I would imagine the exposure to the various walks of life and people while you're at the bank was great experience, even being so young. Right. So you get an exposure in college. Right. You know, largely other college kids professors but then when you're at a bank you get anyone from the farmer right to the business owner to school loan students just like in business now you get the you know yeah the full gamut of all that kind of stuff i mean i was filing loan papers wow so you know loan papers used to be on paper and you folded them in a trifold and then put them in this little like card organizer that looked like out of a library oh wow and I answered phones so you know it and I did some paper processing I guess it was very basic work but working and you know being in an

office environment were all huge helps and networking like I didn't know it was networking at the time but working hard and being somebody that was dependable, um, you know, I think got me to that next job. Nice. Yeah. So to that, um, you're still in Baxbury, stayed there after graduating a little bit. And then what took you to your next location where we would meet? Yes. So, um, there was a part of me that still wanted to get out of Virginia, like go to the big city. So I think I had applied for some jobs and actually got an interview with Hewlett Packard. Oh, wow. And so...

I'm acting surprised like I don't know. I know. So yeah, Hewlett Packard hired me, and that was an amazing experience. I ended up moving to Rockville, Maryland, and worked out of that office for maybe a little over a year. I was not there very long before 9-11. And then I got, well, then we met. But after 9-11, I had gotten laid off from Hewlett Packard but Hewlett Packard was huge because one the things I did there ran the gamut I pulled landlines in data center floors I created SQL databases to manage acquisitions that we had done.

Really the whole time we were engaged, I traveled back and forth every week from Washington area to Atlanta. That was awesome. I know. Hey, but if you're going to start a relationship early and you get the hard stuff out of the way. Yes. There's a lot to go through. Yes.

I also, so when that job was over you know when you're a consultant if you're on the bench it's not good so they decided to um because i had a little bit of a technical background of of programming in college they trained me on unix hp unix which um if you're not a computer nerd that is is like command line. It is, it's like prompt, DOS prompt. It's just the Linux. People probably know Linux. So they trained me on HPUX and then asked me to teach people. Oh, gotcha.

Which I loved. Yeah. Internal Hewlett Packard people? No, external customers. Oh, wow. They were using Unix for their own. I think I remember those big giant books. Those big giant books. And I brought home like Unix systems their own. I think I remember those big giant books. Those big giant books.

And I brought home like Unix systems to practice and play. So like big, what are those things called? Stand up like towers and big monitors at home to practice. And was Unix largely a server based thing or, or could it also just regular operating system? Regular operating system. Okay.

Yeah. Gotcha. I was more on the DOS Windows kind of person. Yeah. But I do remember the giant Unix boxes and things. Yeah. Or, you know, back then. Although now our oldest son has a giant tower computer.

For gaming. It glows and it's extremely powerful for games. It's a good Christmas. So you're teaching Unix and unemployment. Unemployment. Unemployment unemployment so we had just got married so we were married in september um i think i probably you got meningitis in october and i was laid off in november right so the first six months of our marriage i was a stay-at-home wife. That was interesting. But what I did do is I took a class in Oracle UX because I thought that was maybe the way to go. And then I also learned to develop a website.

So I actually developed that website for my best friend's mom's restaurant. And I just stopped supporting that thing a couple of years ago right actually when the when their restaurant got bought and that so you were laid off in 02 right it was the next year it was it wasn't or was it right after 9-11 it was right after 9-11 yeah september october yeah okay yeah so same year wow um yeah so that one thing as far as a process of development, right? So going from small towns, great school, right? Great people that helped you out knowing you had, you know, stumbling blocks with letting go before you even got to the place, but giving you opportunities, working your butt off and then big company, you know, and there's so many memes, sayings, whatever out there,

right? You know, companies will replace you in a heartbeat. Truth, right? When the bottom line's not there, numbers get cut and those numbers equal people. Yeah. And so for you, though, to look at that and then say, okay, what's next, right? Not sit around and mope the whole time. And there is, you know, there's some downs for sure. It sucks.

But to take advantage of it, you know, how did you come to think about, hey, I'm, you know, I need to do something proactively to keep my skills going forward or keep, give me a mission, right? Because it was like six months. Yeah. Right. It was a while. I'm not very good at being idle.

Still to this day, I'm not good at being idle. So I had to find something to do. And online learning was not as big of a thing there at that time. Um, so I had to go to a class to get some training. And there was also programs that HP gave me to help like work through that transition, but no one was really hiring at the time. Um, so I think that just not being able to be idle for me is just part of my personality. So I tried out different things until I eventually found a job. Right. So if you're out there in a tough spot now, right, got let go, couldn't, you know, just decided, hey, this, this company's not for me anymore. You got to keep moving forward, though. You got to look for something.

You got to take advantage of it. Sometimes that costs money, which certainly those classes did. Sometimes it's taking advantage of the networks you have, it sounds like, right, is a good opportunity there. And in the moment, it is hard because it is sad. It is hard when you're applying, right, and you're not getting hired. And at the time, too, like that's a pretty big milestone for the world let alone the nation let alone us yeah of economic hit and things like that but um you know there's there's been others as well but you know it's you just have to pull yourself up let

it beat your traps and you know for us right now it's easy-ish to say that but we went through it you in particular um but you know it's a especially if if you're you know a woman and you're married or you have a partner or you know whatever um you both go through it together uh and it's it's a lot of work but you know i'm very proud of you for the work you did there um i think our son just yelled at us but with that so you kept working you got some classes you did the trainings kept shooting resumes out there kept reaching out to folks you also had a great mentor at hp that's still a great friend today right so that's pretty awesome we'll probably circle back to that maybe

later yeah um and so where did you end up so i ended up at another small software company in D.C. as a project manager. And I didn't, you know, the P&P wasn't as big then. So I had technical experience. And I also probably, I'm going to call it a gift for lack of a better word, but an ability to translate the technical into the end user so I could explain things well. So I think that came through in my interviews for this company, but they were basically working with nonprofits to develop software for different companies. So they hired me as a project manager and it was so much fun

because at the time we were both young and you know newly married and i worked in dc so you know taking the metro to dc and you and i would meet you out yeah we would uh carpool in to work was a lot of fun right so i got gained a lot of experience there, um, made some good connections, but the, um, environment, I don't, I cannot put my finger to this day on what it was. Actually I can a little bit, but it was just toxic. Like I was getting good experience and I loved working with my customers, but when I came back to the office, it just didn't feel very welcoming. And, um, there was actually another woman there that I could clearly tell did not like me. And in hindsight, I feel like that was a little bit of competition, which we in support of

International Women's Day support your fellow women. But I did not stay there very long and ended up looking for another job because it just wasn't right for me. Loved my customers, but coming back into the office was awful. Which speaks a lot, right? If you're more comfortable, if you're happier outside the office than in, then maybe it is time on your own to get out, right? So happiness and, but do it set up for success. Oh, yeah.

Right. Unless there's something egregious happening, you know, you're being harassed, those kind of things. Yeah. You still got to get paid and put food on the table. Yes. Right. And also if you just like, you know, screw it, I'm out, you're putting extra pressure on yourself. Like I've told you and I several times, we are getting paid right now.

So let's, you know find find your happiness outside of work not that we're not happy yes where we're working this has been over the years but i'm saying like yeah if you because everyone even if you are super happy are going to go through those times so just don't set yourself up for you know know, making yourself crazy. If you are going to look, look, find another job first. Yeah. That's, that's a huge thing. And even if you're finding something outside, you know, that's the balance of, Oh, I really love this thing, but I still need to commit to the job and you need to balance it out

and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. Um, so when you got out of there, how'd you set yourself up for success for the next organization that you went to? This was another case where I found another small company, went in as a project manager. And this was a very small company. They were software as a service, online, dealing in the home building industry. So it was weird because it was software, but it was, you know, our main customers were home builders. So got a job there as a project manager. That was also a ton of fun because being a small company, you kind of wear all the hats.

And I did, like through that company, I had the opportunity to do a lot of different roles in that company from project manager to at the end being vice president of learning and our consultant group. So that, you know, that was a matter of just working really hard. I traveled a lot because we would do on-site visits with our customers. That's also where we started having kids. So we had Logan when I worked there. Had great leadership and bosses. Learned a lot about agile and software development and started to really learn about the business side of things. How was the, so again with, you know,

talking about you and your process, but you know, on women's day, so as a young woman coming up from college, primarily in the it field, really, um, like it proper, um, did you find, how was the balance of kind of men to women in the workplace? Because then jumping into the construction industry changed drastically, right? So it, it proper, pretty, pretty balanced, still male drastically, right? Double whammy. So IT proper, pretty balanced, still male-dominated, right? But when you jump into the construction industry, which is way male-dominated,

what challenges did you see there going? And let's be honest, the folks that work in IT are very different than construction folks. Oh, yeah. So not better or worse, just different kinds of people. Construction, a little more ruffle-tumble, right? Smart people in their own rights. But what did you experience when you jumped into the construction industry?

Well, even at the company, I was probably one of a handful of women there. You know, oftentimes the only woman in a room. In, when I went to visit construction sites or like mainly their offices, definitely male dominated, but actually in the office, there were, would be a lot of women. But I was interfacing with owners of these companies because one, I'm either trying to continue to sell professional services to them, and or say, you know, this is the way you need to do this implementation. So, you know, I was very lucky because thinking about the construction world, it could have been like very sexist, you know, the whistling and hey, baby. And I can say over my career, I've been very fortunate to only really have to do

with that a few times and also i don't know if it's because my dad had a construction company when we were younger so i was kind of used to um that environment that environment and i think it's also just how i carried myself i carried myself as a yeah you're not gonna say that and get away with me and it wasn't that i was rude i was was just, I think I exuded confidence that that was never a question. You know, so we talk about that particularly as a dad of three boys, right? I want to build them up. You're always worried about are they going to get in scraps, all that, right? It's going to happen, that kind of stuff.

And just in general in life, security-wise, and we've talked to my parents about this, et cetera, of, and it's, you know, I've of stuff. And just in general in life, security-wise, and we've talked to my parents about this, et cetera, and it's, you know, I've said it, but particularly like Jordan Peterson, who I'd listened to, who we went and saw in Richmond, actually, you know, head up, shoulders back, we're paying attention. And you see so many people, especially now more so,

head down in their phone, you know, leaned over. But even in the workplace, there's a scale of confidence, right? So when you walk into a room, head up, shoulders back, you look people in the eye, you shake their hand really strong. For me, I'm 5'11", 200 pounds, right? So I'm a pretty decent sized guy. I'm pretty confident. But that's developed too.

For a woman, would you recommend the same thing, right? When you are, whether you're just getting out of college, whether you've been in the workforce 20 years, 30, whatever, is you mentioned how you carry yourself whether it's around construction folks or and again they're not bad folks it's just you know it's it's just different yeah it's just different or in a software company or pulling cable or something like that would you recommend kind of out of the gate that folks target that as they develop their professional skills and personal really to try and portray and then actually be more confident yes but i will say i think i've realized um i grew up with parents that helped to make me confident so i know that helped a lot. But the other thing that always helps me is I always want to know the what and why of things. So I learned a lot. So when I would go into those construction

offices, and even if they were like, dang, she's, you know, smoking, I'm sure that's what they're thinking. When I opened my mouth, and I talked to them, and I was trying to help them, oftentimes like shock on their face, like, oh, you know what you're talking about. So with that, there just came respect as well. And, you know, in any office environment, especially with consultants, that rumor of, hey, she knows what she's talking about. And I was helping them always help that. But I think the general confidence and I again, I see that a lot now is about how you was brought up differently or has different feelings. So I'm trying to figure out how to help the younger generation now with that confidence, because it's just not the same as when I was growing. But I don't think their parents did anything different. But something in this world

has changed the confidence level of our younger generations. So to that, right, and really what we get around, because folks say the millennials right and oftentimes sometimes it's negative the way folks say that the millennials the millennials we have their millennials they could also school you in technology they cannot like they're it's really how do you work with different people right we were like gen x was like oh there's gen xers and on and on and on before right so it's just different technology in place at the time of these different kids etc and parenting a huge thing which we partner i think excellently to their own horn but to that point i think so let's say someone did grow up their confidence was not

boosted right what can that person do if they didn't have the advantage that you did right parents that lifted you up, they were confident folks. They encouraged you to even learn how to, you know, elbow people in the nose if they get out of line. But what can they do? And, you know, part of what I'm leaning to really is the mentorship that you talk about. So what you're trying to do now, did you find that mentors along the way helped you with that in the professional setting

in addition to the personal, you know, that your parents provided you? Yes, definitely. I will say it was a little, I have mentors that I can call out and give kudos to. But I think they would even agree, I had less, because I was a woman in technology, that I could kind of look up to and reach out to. Less, you mean less mentors in the industry? Okay. For sure. So, you know, when I, when I look up or even look across, there's not as many women that I could really kind of lean on.

But the ones I did have and I met, I really, not in a creepy way, but latched onto and use them to kind of what I now call like my board of directors, people that I can reach out to. But the other thing I think I really believe in to help build confidence is to, if you're not feeling confident, it's probably because you're doing something you're not passionate about. So finding something you're passionate about and just learn the heck out of it. Because as you grow to know a topic or subject and become

an expert in that area, your confidence just grows because people look to you to get that advice. So becoming knowledgeable about something you're passionate in will help your confidence. And if you're not lucky enough, I would say too, because I've had pretty much from the time I joined the Navy to now, almost everywhere, honestly, very strong women leaders, right? From my mom through, like my leadership in the Navy, through discovery through all the other places, which is awesome. And I love it. It's benefited me a ton, including you. But you have to go find that leadership sometime if it doesn't come find you. Right. So you know, I think whether you're a man or a woman you can't be going oh no one's helping

me i'm not doing this well go find it right you got to put work into it if you're not putting work into it sure you can be lucky a few times but if you don't go out and seek it and ask for it do not expect magic to happen right so no magic's gonna happen gotta put the work in get up out of your cube out of your office out of your whatever um so you were doing construction traveling all over the place i'm getting much better at uh online video games while i'm hanging out with my pals um and this is when we were in arizona? Yeah. For the second half of that part. And then we moved back to the Richmond to have our child. Yeah. And for you professionally, then you have an outstanding opportunity with another organization down the road.

Yeah. That you link up with, that you were with right up until we moved. Yes. So I had my first child, figured out work-life balance. I thought it was work-life balance at the time. Also was able to take maternity leave, which was nice. And the company was doing well, but we ended after our second child. We ended up getting bought out by a company that, again, I just wasn't loving, didn't love the culture.

So after our second child, I took extended maternity leave and went and got my PMP because I knew I wanted to get another job. PMP is in the house. Yes. Super nerdy about that. We're going to create a Kanban board later. Oh, my. super nerdy about that we're going to create a Kanban board later oh my um so I knew I wanted out and so I felt like I needed my PMP because you know when they ask you to do resumes they're like put details on there um put your success rates and honestly in the home building industry

they weren't all successful stories because another kind of struggle and something I learned a lot at that company was that well the building industry, the home building industry, right? Took a nose dive. So those weren't all success stories that I could put on my resume. So I felt like I needed to get something else to leverage. And so I went and got my PMP, which is not an easy thing to do. I remember taking the PMP exam and then running off to Logan's soccer game. So I took it, it was like early in the morning and then we had to run off to Logan's soccer game, but I passed it. I found

the right, uh, right away. So I was very excited for Logan's soccer game. Um, but once I did that, uh, another, what I will say kind of lucky thing happened to me. And that was a family member that worked at GE told me that they were opening a GE office in my area. Come to find out it was literally in our backyard. Like a mile away. Like a mile away. So with that, I did some research. You know, I was like, what am I going to do for GE?

Like I'm coming from this small company. So I did a little bit of research on site online, um, found out who was opening the site through news articles. Why our family member did not tell me names. Um, and then I reached out to her on LinkedIn and said, hey, I'm in the area. You know, this is my experience. I've got my PMP. And within maybe a week or two, I had an interview and a job offer from GE.

Employee number one. Yes, that's right. Although Mr. Puckett would argue with me on that. But anyways. We'll give it to you. It's Women's Day. Yeah, thanks. And he was hired not there. Or maybe he didn't live there at the time i don't know anyways

um so that was an amazing experience because that gave me a whole new industry to get involved with which was um cyber security and ge is that a small startup company yeah yeah generally yeah you know when people would ask me where i'd work, I wouldn't say GE. I would say General Electric. And that was weird for them because I felt like I needed to spell it out. Right. But GE was much bigger than I ever realized. Like they are not just an appliance company.

They were aviation, healthcare, banking at the time. And so they were starting their security operations center right there in our backyard. So the job I also applied for, I had to Google many of the names in the job description because they were security-focused solutions. I didn't know what they were. You know, that's a good point. experience software experience programming experience not infosec experience but as a pmp and really really again we've done the whole certification versus actual project management skills coordination all that but a person that actually gets stuff done and has your pmp yeah um it to me it doesn't matter as much except knowing terminology, right? But you can bring teams together.

You can have your pros tell you what needed to happen. But how was that transition? Because that is a whole different big, super deep world of information technology or information security, rather, to get into. So how did that go? How was that? Because you went from construction to information security. So how did that go? How was that? Because you went from construction to information security. I know. I've always used the saying that a project is a project

is a project, just like a toilet is a toilet is a toilet. So you can kind of take it to different industries, which is why I always like to promote the project management field, because it allows you to go through different seasons of your life, maybe in different industries. This was another case, and you and I have kind of made the agreement over the years where when we take on a new job, one gives more than the other. So like first three to six months, depending on the job, we're like, hey, I'm going to be a little absent at home because we're busting butt to try to get to the place that we're comfortable and we're really good. So that was very helpful. You, with two kids at home, allowed me to really dig in.

And again, it was about gaining knowledge. And as a cancer survivor. And as a cancer survivor. Sorry, I played that card. Yeah. We both play that card now. We can. So that was helpful.

And I just, I traveled a lot to get to meet my stakeholders and the people I was working with. But the other advantage I had there is a huge woman leader supporter. Right. And then several people. Meaning she's not huge. She was hugely helpful. She would smack you for that.

Yeah. So she was very helpful. And some other, actually one was a consultant that was there that really helped me to kind of find my way. And cause one of the hardest things at a big company like GE is the org chart. Oh yeah. Right. Where do you sit?

Why do you care? You know, what, why do I have to talk to you type of thing? Um, so that was probably the biggest difficulty was learning the org chart and who was engaged and learning why and who I needed to engage different people. The technology, again, because I just have some natural tendencies towards technology and understanding what they were for. And I could also Google things and find, figure it out. You know, that wasn't the hard part. It was more about bringing the right people together. Because this was also, I had been rolling out projects. And I'm like, why did GE hire me? I was rolling out projects at a software company, maybe multiple. But I also

did other things like consulting and the leadership training. But at GE, I was rolling out a piece of software globally across 350,000 employees across every single country, every profit and loss center at GE. So this scale was like no other. Right. But did you find you use the same skill sets? Yes. Right. So smaller, bigger. If your core skill sets are strong kind of gets foundation before we've talked about um but you can translate that right i mean there's adjustment because you're like oh my god that's a huge impact yeah can um so when you're rolling when you're getting this stuff done can we just jump back for a second so two kids you have awesome support at the house as a mom though as a working mom professional, how was your transition at work as a mom?

You know, the company before GE was supportive of, like, if I had to take sick days or things like that. So that was never an issue. But they were also learning how to be supportive of moms because there weren't a lot of moms. They were mostly men. Gotcha. So they didn't really notice saying no or anything. They just supported me, which was great. Then, uh, when I got to GE, they also had great things in place, but I feel like a lot of it. And a lot of that is very hazy for me now, like those first six years. Um, also about creating that village. So I remember calling on friends or like your sister was there. Um, you like, we would just kind of go back and forth,

taking those turns on staying home with the kids or whatever. Um, but I could also work from home if I needed. So it, it was really kind of finding that balance. And there were days that I chose my job over the kids, but I could do that because I knew somebody else was there to do whatever. How, what about, um, that kind of working mom guilt? Oh yeah. I mean, I still have working mom guilt. And the other thing I will talk about is, um, after both of my kids, actually with my first one, I had postpartum depression after. But with my second one, I had postpartum depression while I was pregnant.

So look, and you're going to get me to cry on your podcast. So that was a huge adjustment because not just like the regular mom guilt I now have every day, but it was like deep, mental mental crazy guilt while I was pregnant. Right. So, but I had great doctors and again, you and family that said, we'll get through this.

Right. And I found, I used very many different methods to help me through that chemically because it is a chemical imbalance. Sure. And then, you know, once we had both of them, we had great childcare, which we were very blessed to find. imbalance. Sure. Um, and then, you know, once we had both of them,

we had great childcare, which we were very blessed to find. Right. Yeah. Um, so yeah, but there were still days that, especially when I traveled,

um, that I felt like I should be there. Uh, and I wasn't or missing, you know, recitals or, you know, plays and things like that.

But my kids know that I love them right they know that I am there and there are other things I do to make up for that and it's you know one thanks because you just to talk about that and be open is not um not everyone does that and I would say it's also not as rare as people think. Oh. Right? So the difference is just exposure. Who talks about it? Who's open about it? That kind of stuff. But it's normal. We've talked about on, you know, when this was called Between Slides and some of the

folks talked about with other mental, you know, either challenges, illnesses, traumatic things, chemical imbalances, whatever. Right? The talking about it helps. The not being ashamed of it helps and is true right so ladies out there if that's something that you're experienced that you have you know that you're experiencing now ask for help get help there's a lot of resources reach out to us you know if you if you don't know where to go yeah we're not experts but we can you know kind of share what

you know we went through what helped Wendy in particular um but that's a huge deal I think is to bring it in the open right you know whether it's just you know oh I missed this recital to you know full-blown postpartum is a big deal and it's very real and it's you know nothing to be ashamed of at all so two big things um employee assistance program I took advantage of that which is usually six free counseling sessions that you can get, which got me on the right track and also gave me a number of somebody I could call and worth every penny. Although for the six, it was free. and I still tout that to today to anyone that will listen or I think needed or new moms, especially. But also, you know, when I worked for the other company and we had moved to Richmond, I worked from home and I was a working mom. So I didn't have many friends. A lot of my friends were your sister's friends,

right? Like she brought me into that crowd. But when the kids went to, which was a great village for everything. Oh my gosh, they which was a great village for everything oh my gosh they still are a great village yep absolutely when I first went to daycare there were a few moms there that you know I just kind of and and I'm not a I'm not an introvert but I was never comfortable just like going up to random people but as I got older and got more confident, both at work and just being a mom, and I realized that other moms were going through this, I became more willing to go up to somebody and say, Hey, I have no idea what I'm supposed to bring to class for my kids tomorrow.

Can you help me out? And that started a relationship with one person, which turned into a relationship with four women. And we're still in contact, you know, because all of our kids went through preschool together. And that village is irreplaceable. It is something that will take you through. It gets you through. And a lot of them were working moms. So we also had that in common. And so we could talk about the difficulty of that.

But that village is so important. And I cannot tell enough women to find your village. It's going to be uncomfortable, but it will pay off in, you know, forever. It'll pay off.

Right. And thank you to everybody that's helped out to the Bad Moms group. Getting after it makes it video. That movie's hilarious. I think partially because there's so much truth in it.

Yes. Right. Which a lot of those are, I think. Yes. So great things at ge um really for the a big chunk of our our stay in the richmond area yep um and now we find ourselves in the mountains of blacksburg yes uh a great opportunity uh here and you know how so again we're kind of going from smaller companies, giant company, to another smaller company, very innovative, doing great things. And so what was your transition like with that? And, you know, knowing it was, it was a tough one? Yeah, right. Well, I mean, I loved

what I was doing in GE. I love the scope of it. And man, I had a great village of people there, leaders that I respected, a huge team, global team, you know, amazing learning opportunities. And so you're like, well, Wendy, why did you leave? So that's the interesting part. I had done that for a while. And GE had changed their practice and how they were placing people.

So when you first come to GE, you're like, well, I can go to any business and still stay in Richmond and continue to grow. And they kind of changed that. They wanted you to be with your specialty. So you kind of had to move. And the places that I would have had to have moved weren't places that I wanted to take the fact like there are big city places. So I also just wanted a different challenge. Um, I would say I'm just have been on a leadership track, um, because I love helping people to grow and I love big initiatives and getting things done.

And I just didn't, it's not that I didn't see that happening at GE, but there was just something I wanted that was different. I couldn't put my hand on it. And one of the things when you look at CEOs, they're well-rounded, right? So they've done sales, they've done operations, they've done support, they've done implementation. They just have this well-roundedness. So there was an area that I wasn't necessarily getting or couldn't get at GE. So I was in a place where I was like,

I need to do something else. And whenever I feel like I need to do something else, I always update my resume because it does two things for me. One, it helps me to reflect on what I've done and how I've grown. And it also gets me ready to talk to people and do that elevator pitch. You mean the exercise of updating and remembering and revising and rewriting? Yes. Okay. Yeah. Literally updating your resume.

And I've always said I would rather give birth to a fourth child than update my resume. And the last child was not easy. But so I did that and um and then a recruiter called from the blacksburg area and said actually they they sent me a note on linkedin and i usually ignore those um kind of a cold call linkedin yeah but it was like hey i see your former hokey there's a company in blacksburg that's looking and i think i said to him what is in Blacksburg besides the college and bars all right that was my experience with black yeah and so I you know responded back and we just started a conversation and then

pretty quickly I was having a conversation with the CEO and he really sold me on that vision of what they were doing and they had good problems to solve right but then it became you know you and I started talking about it and it was like are we really gonna this might happen are we gonna move for my job right and when Kevin and I are out in public they look at Kevin like oh did you move here for the university kevin's like nope we moved here for her job right um you know that's a mom guilt right there but the mom guilt really didn't come until after we moved here and then my 13 year old wasn't super happy yeah and he was like can we go back to richmond well yeah i mean when you have a

middle schooler that's got a group of friends but I think that's a thing too as a couple as a woman is looking at what's best for everyone's overall life and balancing that

just like on any team not everyone's going to be happy with everything that happens so try and make it the best for the longterm. And so I think we found that where we know there's good schools, there's good people. We knew the opportunity where we could live professionally was good. I was just, again,

have a super strong woman leader that let me stay with the company, which is awesome. I might start crying. Right. Which is fantastic. Right. So thank you for that. And it was hard to

not do this. And for you professionally to say that is a pretty awesome opportunity to be able to lead. And I love the leadership deal. So to see that opportunity and then go, we can deal with the kids. Our two little ones, meh. If there's a playground, they're good.

And our oldest, he's working through through it but sometimes it's it's worth that and that's one thing though you and i and i think compromise which is our number one word for our marriage of 18 years after the first year that was our word yeah yeah the first year's tough let's just be honest we say that to everybody i think we're like good luck we'll see you in a year um is just knowing okay we'll we'll support them through you know adjustment or whatever but for us it's here's what we're gonna do it and we had to compromise anyway because for was it five months four or five months you were coming here every week and so that's another thing too is so when there's a great opportunity you're not gonna flip a switch and magically go poof, poof. You're in a new place.

It's easy. So going through living apart where you're gone every week, kids still got to go to school. They still do things, right? Having that teamwork, right, to feel good about it. But knowing, again, down the road, it's worth, you know, but at some point going, okay, yeah, we're going to, let's go. Yeah, move so we were together because i was living in a um one room apartment not bedroom one room i think they call them studios right yep um and kevin was at home trying to keep all the

kids alive and in the house clean because we did it. Yeah. We were showing it. Right. Yeah. Right. So, you know, that's the other thing from a leadership perspective and the process of kind of us getting there. One is that.

I could have that in there. Yeah. The company pretty much took anything out of the way that I could push back against. Nice. Like they pretty much baited a year. They're going to, you're not because they kind of took care of everything else

even the flexibility to not move everyone move right away that I would have to be going back and forth but then that whole process of deciding to move earlier also the market here in Blacksburg for housing specifically is not great

that's a whole other topic we can bring up later when we're comparing that to the Richmond Virginia area which is there's just way specifically is not great. That's a whole other topic we can bring up later. Well, and we're comparing that to the Richmond, Virginia area, which is there's just way more stuff. Oh, yeah. And various types. But, yeah, so it's going from one huge market to a much smaller one. Yeah, it was a big deal.

But, you know, we used our project management skills. We used several online spreadsheets. It works. It does work. Yeah, and we got it done. So now we're here in Blacksburg, and we sometimes still look out at the mountains and say, we live in Blacksburg.

That's right. Yeah. So your process is pretty awesome. I think it's a great track of finding out in school you don't want to do something, so switch. Be proactive. Change it. Opportunities fall down, but you look at it and say, finding out in school you don't want to do something so switch be proactive change it opportunities fall down but you look at it and say okay i gotta make the best of this lean on other folks seek mentors yeah take advantage translate your your skill set that's not just industry dependent but that transcends really any industry i think and then of course

prop that onto something and dive into it. Like you're talking about looking at the information security terms and this and that, and you got way more into it there. And then as you advance, as you develop, as you're seeked out, right? People sought you out, seeked. I think I'm talking like my seven-year-old. Sought you out. Then taking advantage of leadership opportunities and,

you know, then, then going with them, but, but planning them out. And one thing on this show, I think of, or work I think of,

and it's a great, it's great guidance that you've given me is when you are telling a story, when you're giving a presentation, when you're talking to somebody, ask yourself, for me, it used to be, and still kind of is when i would do like incident management response it was and then what right because i'm always thinking we're standing watch and then what something blows up and then yeah so for you it's it's so what right so we're pretty awesome so i'm sure folks have enjoyed this banter

your story is pretty awesome you've worked really hard so what progress can you help the new young woman right getting into the workforce strive towards um and there's no i would say one roadmap right but no or folks in the same situation right working moms that are professionals um in whatever level whatever job so let's look at maybe let's look at the the the brand new person the brand new young woman on women's day right international women's day getting into the workforce so how can she make progress so i i talk about all these different um seasons i call them seasons. So the woman that is early in her season, I really think it's a matter of finding something that you're passionate about.

Because when you're passionate, you will do good things, you'll try harder. But I think it's also about seeking out mentors, as well as trying to get outside of your office. And this is something I've learned over the years. So, you know, you will learn a set of things and you will work really hard in your office. If you ever don't love it, maybe there's a small season within your season. You know, Maybe it's tax season at work and you're an accountant. Getting outside of your office and joining women in technology groups is huge. A couple of things. One, it gives you different perspectives. It's a huge networking, and I like to call it village building opportunity.

But it also gives you additional leadership skills. So if you're in a job when you're young and you can't get those leadership skills or you can't get certain skills, if you join an organization like Women in Technology here in Blacksburg, we call it WOTEC, that gives you leadership opportunities, project management opportunities. So it gives you the opportunity to try different things. So that I think would be my big recommendation for folks that are younger. If you're not exactly loving what you're doing, find opportunities outside of through different organizations to help you get additional skills. Is there any, just a level set, right? Because that's another thing that's for leaders that's hard. Some folks don't want to do it because sometimes a level set is like what a coach told you that said you're

just not an athlete right which may not be the best way to say things like that um sometimes it's a dose of reality like you know i remember it was like the last day of football season my senior year right right and i played but i knew i wouldn't go to college and coach was like is there anything i can do for anyone talk to him like no i'm good like like that's all i needed to say i do i wasn't going anywhere to your point of find something you love and get mentors and things like that and work your way up right and in this reality of different expectations for folks coming out of college right now market's tough i feel like the expectation should be you're gonna have to work your way up. You're going to have to start from the ground up. It's similar to Andrew Smith.

I talked about jiu-jitsu. He started laying mats down. Now he's co-owner of a huge gym and tournaments and things like that. So in the workforce, for young women coming in, is there any reality where they're going to jump right to a senior director, COO job? Yeah, if they own the company. Right. If they build. Or they build the director, COO job. Yeah. If they own the company. Right. Right.

Family handed down. Right. Or they build the company from an entrepreneur perspective. Yeah. Because the other thing that's always been big for me too, and I probably didn't think about this when I was younger, but it's just how I was raised, is earning that respect, especially as a woman, especially as a woman who didn't have full technical chops. Like I knew enough to be dangerous and call BS on things, but you know, I, especially my, one of my last teams at GE was incredibly super nerds, amazing, smart people. And I remember going to lunch after I'd shortly started the job and him asking me some questions. He's like, Oh, you actually know some stuff asking me some questions, he's like, Oh, you actually know some stuff. I'm like, he's like, okay, now I knew what I'm dealing with.

But, but back to your question, I think, um, no, you should expect to work your way up because you're going to learn things that way. If you just go directly to like a senior director, um, one, I questioned the leadership there cause they're probably setting you up for failure. Right. Um,. But also, don't do that to yourself. Don't set yourself up for failure. And is that something you can look for? Because you talk about doing research, which is just good advice before you interview or anything, look up the company. Don't go in there going, I don't know, of what your company does or what the org chart is. Big no-no. You should have an outline of what the company is, what do what the hierarchy is all that kind of stuff i would

turn people down if they didn't do any research because i think they're lazy it is i mean especially now so in in 2020 yeah companies have tons of information out there whether it's on their site or you google it and there's write-ups or you know there's there's tons of stuff out there so do your research and to that you can see if if there's a ton of high level positions and the company has like 10 people that's a top heavy organization right which is part of what big companies do is they go oh remove layers add layers span and control all that kind of stuff um so so to the point of it and a bit ago with big companies when it was booming before the housing market, there were tons of big, right? You got hired with a big title because the economy was crazy.

I mean, the economy is good now, but still, I mean, I think that's something to look forward to. What about for your peers, both kind of what you've taken progress-wise and then some advice you've given to your peers progress wise, and then some advice you've given to your peers, um, to help them make progress. So folks that have been in the game for a while, right. That are, that are up, that are in leadership positions. Um, I think that's gotta be around seeking specific feedback and for women that's usually asking for it. Um, I think in this day and age, it's harder to give women feedback, like real honest

feedback for legal purposes, unfortunately, people being afraid of that. So I think as a woman, you have to seek specific feedback and that means asking specific questions. How was I in that presentation the other day? How did my report come through? Did my email sound okay? You know, you hear me on the phone with customers. Do I sound abrasive? Do I sound like getting, asking specific questions or, you know, finding someone that you'd be like, I have no idea what to ask. Maybe they're younger in their career. So I think seeking that feedback. And then as you move up the ladder, there definitely are even less people to look up to. So you don't necessarily have somebody that you can aspire to be. So oftentimes it's looking outside and also just taking

some self-training courses, whether they're online courses. You see me reading all the time now. Like I'm constantly reading and trying to learn to grow myself. Right. Cause I'm not getting that. Like I was when I was younger in my career. I mean, so to that being more seasoned professionally and asking more pointed questions seems like a maturation of your skills, of your ego,

of your willingness to take feedback without going, Oh, what? You know? And that's, that's not just women but but anyone yeah but i think that that sounds like a big thing to say specifically like how was this and then actually take it implement it right and not be offended by it or upset or you know and

of course it depends on how you get the feedback too if someone's yeah an a-hole the way they give it but um but yeah that that that seems like awesome but you can learn from that a-hole the way they give it but um but yeah that that that seems like awesome but you can learn from that a-hole feedback like yeah true i don't want to be like that every opportunity yeah that's true so you mentioned woe tech you mentioned women in technology um and there's other groups and so you've been involved with that both in the richmond area here and roanoke blacksburg um tell us a little bit about that And for folks in either of those areas or, and are there other organizations you're aware of around the country? Because we're national international here.

This is how we roll. Particularly in France. So shout out France. A lot of French people listening. I didn't take French. Wendy took French actually in school. So how about the WOTEC groups in Richmond here and then other, other places outside of Virginia?

So I got involved with women in technology in Richmond through RVA Tech because I went to the first conference that they had. I was so excited. It was like four women in technology. So I was super excited about that. And I went to the first conference. And I think after that, like maybe one or two years after that, I started to get involved. Now, this is where I go back to my seasons. I wasn't at a place in my life because I had kids that I could like give a lot of extra commitments outside of work. So I went, but then I wanted to participate and give back and help because as I kind of was becoming more seasoned in my own career, I realized the things that I had experienced, like women just weren't quite talking about as much.

And I wanted to share that. Like I wanted to share just about being a working mom and about, you know, challenges that you have being the only woman at the table. So I started coordinating the yearly kind of big conference with them. So actually, even when I started here, I continued to be on the board for the last 2019 WOTEC event. So that's why I was going back to Richmond. And then when I came here, I went to the first event here. You know, people were really excited about it.

I don't think it had been as lively as ours. They were like, hey, we want to keep this going. We want to keep the conversation going. This is good. And I was like, you're not already doing this. So I kind of raised my hand and said, I can help. Like, I've done this. You know, here's what we need to do.

So the WOTEC maturity enrichment is very different than the WOTEC. And it's just a matter of time. I mean, it took us eight years to get to almost 800 participants in our last conference. Wow. So now we're starting here and we're dealing with numbers that are more like 40 or 50. Sure. And that's a general process there, too, realizing you're going from a huge thing and this is established and a huge helping build a foundation.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, cause this area in general is just going through a lot of growth. We're trying to bring more companies here. Um, so I just felt like this was an opportunity for me to give back here, um, to give again, our goal right now is to build that village, to create a village where people, women and men honestly can, can come and support each other and learn from each other.

So we can pick up the phone. You know, this is what I miss right now with my village in Richmond. We still text a strong game, but you know, having that somebody you can get a coffee or wine with, um, is huge.

Nice. Yeah. So get involved, right? So your professional development and personal really can happen uh professional particularly at work but outside of work you'll have conversations and i'm not i'm not good at this is one of the things i need to do better at obviously getting out of the house and that kind of stuff but but networking with whether it's the pmi groups or

you know men in technology which is really just every other technology group i guess but doing that as well but but you'll have different conversations than you will when groups or, you know, men in technology, which is really just every other technology group, I guess. But doing that as well. But you'll have different conversations than you will when you're in the office with someone that's at the same company. Yeah. Because you get the different perspective, right? Of either what they do, good or bad, what you like or don't like. You're not in your office with an earshot.

Right. So that's its own. I mean, that's its own bonus, too, I think. The, you know, the other thing I would just throw a plug in there for really quick is if you are a man and you care about actually supporting and being an ally for women, go to those meetings. Unless it says women only. Right. All of them are open. Go and hear how you can help get a different perspective. But you're asking about other groups. So outside of usually like tech councils in the area, usually have women in technology groups. There's other.

Who are those councils usually through like a Metro chamber or like a. Yeah. Like here it's Roanoke Blacksburg technology council. Probably Google tech council in your area or something. Okay. And actually if you Google WOTEC, you can find some in your area. Oh,

nice. Women who code is another really strong organization that I love. They're also global. Nice. Now, they're focused on very specific, like, let me help you with tech skills. But it's still another village of women that are hands-on keyboard. Right. That are supportive and helping you grow.

And they're doing some great campaigns this month. So if you follow them on Facebook or Twitter. Nice. And what's their name? Women Who Code? Women Who Code. Or W-O-T-E-C-H for WOTEC, if you look that up in your area.

Yes. Okay. Nice. So if there's folks out there, young ladies, experienced women in the industry. Any season of life. Any season of life. Yeah.

You're on the LinkedIn can folks reach out to you there at Wendy W-N-D-I Pennell P-A-N-N-E-L-L so and you know I think you'll be glad to mentor folks or answer questions

thank you for everything thanks honey happy International Women's Day you took over the coronavirus spot we'll follow up with that because everyone's getting in on that thing so thank you everybody out there listening

that has liked, followed, etc pretty awesome relaunch of the podcast because of you all that are listening great number 10 with my wife, who's number one. I like how I did that. Thank you, family and friends, and all the mentors that Wendy mentioned, all our village, all our friends.

You all know who you are. You've been to our house probably many times and vice versa. So thank you all very much. Anything you want to close it out with on this International Women's Day? I'll give you the last word there as a strong woman. Oh, that's a good one. So International Women's Day this year, their focus is each for equal. And the same as an equal world is an enabled world. So it's really talking about how are we going to celebrate women's achievements. So my action or takeaway would be that, you know,

tomorrow when you get back into the office, just take a moment and recognize a woman in your office, give them a shout out, and help them to find their voice if they don't already have one. That's pretty well said. Thanks everybody for listening. Godspeed.