The People, Process, & Progress Podcast - How a Public Safety Leader Beat Addiction with CAPT Henry "Hank" Smith | KEV Talks #8

Episode Date: November 14, 2022

In How a Public Safety Leader Beat Addiction with CAPT Henry "Hank" Smith | KEV Talks #8, my good friend Henry “Hank” Smith and I catch up a bit, share his background in the U.S. Military and Public Safety, then get into the well known but often overlooked issued - substance abuse in Public Safety.Key timestamps:0:00 Reunited…and it feels so good01:48 Hank’s story begins12:26 First cardiac arrest call19:50 Hanks struggles with alcohol28:35 Where there’s smoke38:37 Putting the article together50:00 Looking inward01:05:00 Public Safety Progress01:11:55 Know you’re not alone*To contact Hank and learn more about him or book time with him to share the Substance Abuse in Public Safety presentation contact him at [e-mail] or on Instagram @henry.smith.804**Read Hank's article a thttps://cdn.ymaws.com/fbileeda.org/resource/resmgr/FBI-LEEDA_MagazineQ2_Summer2.pdf (pgs. 11-2)

According to the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund, there are 800,000 sworn law enforcement officers now serving the United States. This is the highest figure ever. Of those 800,000 that answered the call to 911, 200,000 or 25% of them have some sort of substance abuse problem. Why? Well, in this episode of the KevTalks podcast, I'm going to talk about substance abuse and public safety with my good friend Hank Smith. You'll hear Hank's story from a young EMT working his first cardiac arrest as a teenager to his time in the Air Force Reserve, and then we'll go through his 26 years in law enforcement. And we'll get more insight as to what can drive folks that see the worst in humanity depend on substances such as alcohol and drugs. Hank takes us through his own journey with alcohol, what he's learned from the good and the bad,

how some departments throw their people away and others value them as they should and give them another chance, just like we do everybody else in society. So now, let's fly into Episode 8, Substance Abuse and Public Safety with Henry Hank Smith. Today, I have the pleasure and I'm lucky to reconnect with a good buddy of mine, Hank Smith, where we're going to talk about substance abuse and public safety. And that's the title of this mine, Hank Smith, where we're going to talk about substance abuse and public safety. And that's the title of this episode, Episode 8, Substance Abuse and Public Safety. Hank, thank you for helping me break into the video world.

I'm a perfect guinea pig. There you go. Hank and I have spent a lot of time together in trainings and deployments on the incident management team, working together in the county we work together in. And we're going to get into and use an article Hank wrote called Substance Abuse and Public Safety that was published in, and I wrote the acronym down, the FBI Law Enforcement Executive Development Association from summer 2000. So just this past summer, right? And he and i have been trying to connect for a while a great opportunity to do that now so it was published i'll link to that in the video notes and the show notes i guess now um but hank let's let's tell folks about you man where'd you grow up um i know you're a military guy too and so let's let's lead us into your background

awesome well thanks for having me on from the one. I appreciate it. I'm glad we finally got the ability to put all this stuff together. I know you talked about this a couple years ago when you started doing the Between the Firms. It sounds like it, yeah.

Your initial podcast and stuff and timing wasn't right or whatever, but I'm glad we were able to link up and get this done. I grew up and started

initially here in Henrico until I was 6 and we moved out to Palatine County from I was 6 to 16 and then came back here. Largely because a lot of the activities and stuff I was doing was back here in Richmond. So my folks were spending a lot of time driving back and forth between there and Palatine. And because at that time, Palatine was not what it is today.

I mean, it wasn't even a traffic light, not even a flashing one. Right. And so if you wanted a hamburger, you had to drive, you know, 35 miles into Midlothian or whatever. So then after high school, well, while I was in high school, I got started at EMS and volunteer search and rescue and stuff like that for the Civil Air Patrol and the Appalachian Search and Rescue Conference. And then went to the Air Force, the Air Force Reserve, started off as a flight medic. And then later on, or done at Lackland Air Force Base as a military training instructor, like the drill sergeant and drill instructor for basic training.

Oh, wow. Did that full-time for about three years. In the last two years was as a traditional reservist. After I came back to Henrico, I got hired into law enforcement. And so after a while, it just got to be a lot. And after some pressure from the spousal unit at the time, separated from the Air Force and stuff. So, yeah, definitely missed the military.

I mean, being in the military yourself, I mean, it's kind of like a completely different job that you say you swear it sucks at the time, but when you get out, you're like, why the hell did I ever get out? I love sucks at the time, but you get out. You're like, well, how did I ever get out? I love being in the military. And I think coming into law enforcement gives you that ability to kind of continue along in that structured environment and stuff like that. Because most law enforcement agencies are paramilitary and a lot of ex-military folks in there were veterans anyway and um

so that was in 97 i'm just um probably in my 26 and a half year now and i'm looking to retire here in a couple months so cool yeah i didn't realize you were uh in central virginia most of your life, too. Like I grew up over in Lothian, so just not far on the outskirts of Powhatan, a little more developed. But yeah, not today. It's just grown so much in that area. You know, like a lot of places, I guess, but pretty nice to that. What took you from doing a lot of medical stuff to do and getting into law enforcement? What drew you to that? Well, I think I knew I wanted to be in law enforcement,

I guess probably since I was like 12 or 13. Growing up out there, you'd see the deputy every once in a while, but a lot of times you saw troopers sitting in the media and running radar and stuff like that. I was like, oh, I'm just fascinated by it. One of my friends' dad was a state trooper. I loved going over the house, just walking around his car, looking at stuff.

So, you know, I actually had to be 21 to be a law enforcement officer. So I knew I wanted to do public safety, and EMS was something I could do public safety related, that I didn't have to wait for. So I started in the search and rescue arena. Sorry, my dog's fighting for attention. So I started off in search and rescue, and then got my ENT when I was 16, after I got out of tech school for being a flight medic in the Air Force. I got cardiac tech way back when I was in the EMS chain, the certification chain.

Did those turn into intermediates, kind of? I think so. Intermediates, something like that, yeah. Yeah. But, I mean, here in the Richmond area, the protocols were the same as paramedics. Yeah. I think in some of the outlying jurisdictions, the protocols were a little less, but had a lot of latitude and stuff here, but, um, but anyway, shortly after that, um, got married, went to Texas, um, um, the TI down there and then, but even then I worked part-time

in an emergency room and, um, I was about to go into a paramedic program, um, when I got hired back this way. So it wasn't necessarily like a, hey, I want to get out of EMS and into law enforcement. You wanted to do that, but EMS gave you a way to be in public safety when you were younger and then transition that way. Cool. They come up with an indoor and exposure to what the public safety arena was like and stuff. But I thoroughly enjoyed it. love doing ems you know it's you know constant problem solving you know looking at a patient trying to figure out what's going on you know your your treatment plan you know based on your protocols and what you have available and

and uh get them to the hospital or whatever it is that you need to do. But I mean, it's, you know, as you know, every call is different. Yeah. Did you draw on that experience when you then got into law enforcement, particularly kind of the troubleshooting, and you'd been exposed not just when you're younger, but of course when you're running calls yourself in EMS to then, you know, did that help your transition into law enforcement? The military certainly. I would imagine military boot camp versus police academy boot camp. in EMS to then, you know, did that help your transition into law enforcement, the military?

Certainly I would imagine military bootcamp verse, um, police academy bootcamp similar, but you were pretty prepared for that paramilitary setting and then kind of had some exposure to public safety. So did that help your, you know, help that career transition? Well, I mean, in the EMS field in in the military, it can be very fluid and dynamic. And you have to be adaptable to different situations or else you're not going to really succeed. And as you know, you're in the fire service and EMS and then law enforcement is the same way. I mean, sometimes you're in a constantly fluid situation that you have to constantly adapt to. You can have the perfect plan, but as you know, no plan ever survives worst contact. So it's about contingencies and mitigating those contingencies. But yeah, I think the EMS exposure and being in the military definitely helped with that transition.

Cool. Yeah. And so in 26 years, you said that you're going on, holy smokes. So in that, I imagine you've seen a lot, not all of it. Great. Right. You know, the calls, which is that exposure. So what led you to put together this article to help raise that awareness? And really, the article really speaks to, if you haven't read it again, I'll link to it, but it really speaks to a lot of things we'll get into. But there's a problem, a pretty significant problem, right, in public safety, but also in particular in law enforcement, which is you really hit in on a bit in the article. But what led you to want to put this article together and get it out there? Because it's a national, really international publication, right? Right. Well, I mean, I guess you're asking me what

time it is. I'm going to have to tell you how to build a clock. Yeah, big question. I guess the article has drawn a lot on my personal experience. You know, some good, not a lot, not so good. So, you know, as you mentioned, you know, 26 years, you're exposed to a lot of stuff. And I think, you know, anybody that's in this career field, especially if they're in an an operational capacity you're going to see a lot of stuff and I think it's a lot of things that people really can't even imagine you know what our responders endure and that leads to post trauma issues you, potentially nightmares or anxiety or whatever, is this the call?

And with the drastic uptick in attacks on law enforcement and stuff currently, I heard a friend of mine mention that when you go out anymore and out on patrol it's like playing Russian roulette you know is this gonna be the day right either you know get hurt or wind up on YouTube or I want to be in prosecutors were doing my job and things like that and you know that can lead to a lot of anxiety issues. And how people respond to that anxiety varies. Or those post-trauma issues vary. Some people have healthy coping mechanisms where they go to the gym, they go on a walk, they work out or do meditation or some activities that take their you know, take their mind off of whatever

it is that's circling around in there. But sometimes people, you know, use substances to decompress, you know, whether it's beer, liquor, wine, or, you know, in some cases, you know, sometimes it's, you know, more stuff that isn't quite exactly legal that they, you know know are able to get their hands on or whatever I mean in those cases that's fairly rare but it does happen so you know so there's that piece and I would say you know for me post-trauma stuff and you're talking about you know early days in EMS, um, I remember very distinctly, um, I think I was 17, I was a senior in high school. Um, it was like exam week, you know,

right before graduation or, you know, if you had a good grade, you didn't have to take the exam, which was never the case for me. I had to take all my exams, but, um, so they didn't get that option to see students. Same boat. but um so they didn't get that option to see students same boat so um me and my friend were a member of a volunteer rescue squad for me i had a history exam the next next day so you know it was a nice day out in the spring we're like hey let's go you know wash your cars at the rescue squad. So we go do that, and our EMT instructors have to be driving that day. We're like, hey, if a call comes out, can we jump on? So I'll tether myself to one instructor and tether themselves to the other one.

Well, shortly after that, turns go out for a cardiac arrest. I'm like, oh, sweet, cardiac arrest. They are awesome. And so we go to a church several miles out from where the squad house was. And this man's laid out in the middle of the aisle in the church and, you know, started working them. Now, until that time, you know, I'd seen deceased people before, but it was in a pretty sterile environment. People in a casket all made up and stuff. But never anything raw like this. So, working there at the church, got a motor in the unit, called for it to the hospital.

Long ride to the hospital. I'm doing compliance and stuff. hospital, long ride to the hospital, you know, delivering defibrillation shocks, pushing drugs, all this other stuff. Get him in the hospital, they work him probably another 45 minutes, and then, you know, while we're recovering our gear and everything else, and then find out, you know, they called it and he had passed away. So in that, you know, had a very profound impact on me where you know not only did i see this now you know freshly deceased person but you know trying to

save them and it didn't work out you know so i get home that night and trying to study what happened right you know not sleeping it was just playing those scenes over and over again and it and it really wasn't you know like a trauma scene or anything like that but just the the whole scenario and the the next day um took the exam or at least the exam was in front of me and um unfortunately my seat was by the window so So I sat there and was like staring out the window the entire time. And then, you know, the teacher's like, all right, you got 10 more minutes. I looked down. I was like on page one.

And, you know, hardly, like when I'm getting like a 40 on the exam or something like that. And I mean, my grades were good enough that it really didn't impact whether or not I graduated. But my teacher had asked me, you know, like a day or so later, like, what happened? And so I told him what happened. He goes, I wish you would have said something, you know, we could have rescheduled. I was like, I did not, you know. So that was that part. And then, you know, over time, working as a ER tech on local hospitals here in Richmond,

you know, and then other EMS calls and so forth, you know, that starts to compound, which at that time, I mean, I didn't know anything about post-trauma or anything like that. You know, you just kind of learn how to compartmentalize it. Yeah. So, um, so, you know, fast forward, you know, through the military career, um, where I was really like kind of introduced with, um, to, you know, drinking for social socialization or whatever.

I mean, I mean, military ramps it up a notch. Yeah. I never thought you'd drink in the military, you know? Yeah. Um, and there were a couple of times that, you know, I really caught myself. I'm like, man, I feel been drinking every day for like 30 days. I need to stop. Because I think I have a family history of alcohol issues and stuff like that.

So fast forward to the police department. I would drink socially, but sometimes there would be a beer that sits in the refrigerator for several months. I wouldn't even think twice about it. But later on, after divorce number one, that kind of changed. That coupled with a new assignment within the police department was a little bit more stressful, a lot more responsibility, you know, and then to kind of trying to drink my way through resentments or whatever, you know, you know, it just started to compound. And unfortunately, and but fortunately, in some respects, ultimately, you know, created the situation where, you know, was charged with DUI.

And that was, you know, pretty catastrophic for me mentally, you know, ego, blow to the ego and all that other stuff. And, you know, what has happened? The chief of police at the time is pretty evident what was fixing to happen to me. The sheriff of our county gave me the opportunity to be able to transfer over to the sheriff's office. And that's where I am now. But in that time, I started attending AA. Went pretty regularly for about 18 months or so. I also did a substance abuse program through a mental health provider. And my clinician that worked with me was a very spot on, very candid guy.

He was in recovery himself and had been for many, many years and stuff like that. Completed that program, didn't drink or anything like that. But after about 18 months, I started taking an EMT class with my oldest son. All my EMS stuff had expired by then. I was like, yeah, this would be cool for father-son activity and that kind of thing. So in the meetings where the class is conflicted with the meetings I went to regularly, I just kind of got in the habit of not going. I'm like, all right know I got this and so probably went about three or about four and a half more years or three and a half more

years until my second wife had a issue at work where it looked like it was not going to be very favorable for her. And she was also not drinking at the time. And I don't know if it was her or me suggesting, well, hey, I'm going to go get a 12-pack and just try to relax. And probably one of the worst mistakes that I could have made because I went and bought it and that started like an 18-month run in drinking. People don't realize this, that if you stop drinking and you pick back up later on, you, in a very short amount of time, you're at the level that you would have been if you would have never stopped drinking as far as frequency and Tempo and that kind of stuff

So in that time in between There was a class that was put on by one of the members of our IMT the Metro Richmond Public Safety Leadership Academy There was a jurisdictions within the agency participated, and it was all flavors of public safety. So fire, EMS, law enforcement combined. I think the overarching premise, other than being a first-line supervisor school, was to help these folks network.

And so if there is a regional event or incident or something like that, that's the first time they're seeing their teammates is not in the huddle. Right, yeah. And so part of the class was there was a block on wellness. They had a mental health clinician taught as well as another officer to talk about the mental health pieces. And there was a question that came up in the original planning meeting or whatever that dealt with substance abuse.

And by that time, I was a couple of years out from that DUI incident and stuff. I remember he kind of looked at me like, If we could only think of someone who could speak to this. Exactly. I'm a pretty candid, open person, at least I am now. I think the older I get, the less F's I have to give.

So my bucket meter is pegged. So I said, let me see what I can do. So I did some research, mental health and stuff like that. Real life intervenes here on the podcast. That's what's up.

That's all good. I'm trying to get a stuff and not dig up the carpet. Anyway, I've come up with this class about you know about public substance abuse and public safety and and presented some data. And, you know, one of the pieces of data was that, you know, just in law enforcement alone is that there's a 25 percent of law enforcement just in that discipline have issues with

subsidies in the class I'm like alright so everybody don't look around at your table and try to figure out who the drunk is but it's some of you but overall in public safety you're looking at in the 30s

and more than likely that data or that figure is pretty low because in the 30s. More than likely that data or that figure is pretty low because of our insular nature of I'm not going to share that information or thinking that it's an IA

or an HR trap in the survey and they're not going to answer honestly or whatever. The numbers are probably a little bit higher. The class was received very well and at the end of the answer honestly or whatever. So the numbers are probably a little bit higher. But the class was received very well. And at the end of the class, you know, I'd say, you know, well, how do I know all this stuff? And I said, you know, I'm not a, I don't have an MD or a PhD or anything after my name. I might have a DA for dumbass. But I said, you know,

I are one. I say, you know, my name's Hank and I'm an alcoholic and kind of go into my story about how you know things kind of ramped up and a lot of that is you know relational issues bad divorce bad breakups you know from your girlfriends or whatever and and you know that stuff compounds and when you add in work frustrations, whether it's trauma issues or internal things going on within your agency, it can be a lot. I remember prior to the UI that I would get

home from work, I would still be in my work clothes and have a beer at the refrigerator, have a second one to go outside and have a cigarette, get a third one to go upstairs and get changed, and then the fourth one when I got back downstairs all in a period of like

maybe 30 minutes. And that was kind of just getting started you know unfortunately and i and please don't you know think i'm making light of any of this because i'm i'm not you know things could have been much much much worse yeah and they turn out to be very worse for a lot of people um so you know i go through that first, evolution of sobriety and, um, and then, you know, start on that 18 month, um, you know, run of, of drinking again. And, you know, and that part about, you know, picking back up where you left off, where

you had never stopped is very true. after the wife number two had lost her job things really deteriorated with us not because of the employment part but I think the effect of losing the job took on her

things just really deteriorated at the time um we were trying to work on things and then that wasn't really panning out very well sold our house moved into separate residences and stuff like that and i remember you know getting home from from work um and just drinking beer all day and for the rest of the night and i mean like a lot and and one of the things at least for me and i think you know other people could probably relate to this is that um you know sometimes when you drink it only you know just exacerbates whatever you're feeling at the time um and you know if you're pissed at the time, it only elevates the level of

positivity that you have. For me, it allows me to get up in my head without supervision. Then those resentments and things start spinning. It just makes the drinking even worse

and so forth. Before we jump to the end of the article, because it's one great background I'll say only to share, because like you talk about, like you are one, I are one, like there's folks listening, I'm sure. And there's folks that were in that class and there's folks that will be there like, Oh, something happened to me. And I went down that road or I chose to do that instead of talking to

somebody or some of the healthier things you talked about. And I think it sounded like, and I was talking to one of my best friends yesterday that I was a corpsman with in the Navy. And, uh, I started volunteering as a fire fighter, MT and just filled when I was really young too. Um, but more so impact. And I went to some car accidents and things. Um, but we're talking about, you know, when you're so young and you're thrown directly into horrible situations where you're going to see dead people and, and who knows what way, and it could be when you're 17, it could be when you're 19 or 20, which is still crazy young, right? If you think about the, the, let's talk about, think about, and nurses go through stuff too. But if I go all the way through nursing school, I'm a few years older and I might get

exposed, but I'm not going straight to the front of the line on the street where stuff happens unless I did a ride along, right. Or something like that. And it, it depends on your field, but we, you know, we were talking about that and hopefully it's better now. And I'm not as connected with, you know, EMS services or follow, you know, firing things as far as, you know, volunteer, but as far as kind of a, a no nonsense onboarding, like you're going to see bad stuff. We have these services set up, and it seems like in general, public safety has that. Hopefully, that's proliferated a bit through the volunteer agencies that just some don't have the infrastructure. Some, like where I am here in Blacksburg, are bigger than Caribbean. It's amazing with the equipment and the stuff they

have. I feel like when you get that young and then it's not really dealt with to your point, it's festered, it stays in that attic in your head. And then it just, you keep piling on it. Um, and then, you know, you mentioned the military, uh, which is like the university of, you know, folks are like, Oh, would you, my kids, you know, where'd you go to college? And I was like, well, I was in the military when I was in college. So my experience was a little bit different, you know, than, than other folks. Um, but it definitely, you know, between that and public safety, part of that culture. And you mentioned it of not asking for help. And then, you know what, it is fun to hang out and have beers and stuff with your friends

and do all that kind of stuff. But it's, um, I, I just did, uh, the episode before this, I read this book, lost connections. And it was about like, there's these, uh, nine nine disconnections you can have like for folks that are depressed. Well, a big thing of it, one of them had to do with this problem. It really had to do with these folks that have been abused. They gained a bunch of weight, so they weren't attractive to abusers, right? And so – but they thought, oh, you just eat unhealthy, so we'll help you with that. But that was really the smoke, not the fire,, you know, like this, the, the,

the smoke is the alcohol use, right? The fire is really the trauma in your head, the bad experiences work, those kinds of things. And, um, you know, it's getting to that and digging to it, um, seems, you know, required that sobriety requires it's tough. I would imagine to even get to the point where you're like, look, to make that decision to even go get the help, right? Because I'm sure there's plenty of folks that are at the point where they know somewhere in their head, I need to get help. I'm not doing what I'm supposed to do. But they don't have a catalyst maybe to take that step. What should they do? Or you know is there or motivation just for that just to even take that first step you know and then dive in more into the

you know the article and things like that but but you know did something just click where you're like i just gotta go do that i know like i had a panic attack so i was like oh this this is awful so i need i need to change something right. Same thing in the evening. Oh, it's easy to sit down and have some drinks or it's easy to just fester and work out and act like I'm dealing with it when you're not. You're not talking through things. What could someone do if they're in that place where they're not feeling – they don't want to ask for help, you know what I mean? Because they're probably not consciously thinking of it maybe. Well, you know,

I guess the biggest thing is to try to get help before you're forced to get help. Um, like in my situation, what clicked were the last ratchet on the handcuff, you know, that's a bad, um, situation to be in. And, um, you know in and certainly impacted my career but you know God's will things happen

the way they were supposed to happen you know that sent me to the sheriff's office where I got a completely still in law enforcement, but a completely different experience, but had the opportunity to share my experiences both professionally and personally and things like that and hopefully make an impact in several people. But back to what you were asking, the biggest thing is to, if you were wondering to yourself,

do I have a, is this an issue? If you have to ask yourself that, then it is, you know, and it's, and it's not, um, as I explained to a friend of mine that was, you know, struggling with some issues when I was telling him my story, he was like, man, I don't drink hardly as much as that. No, I mean, I'm like, well, well, well, wait, it's not, it's not the quantity, the quality. Right. So, I mean, and what I mean by that is what, why are you drinking? You know, and, you know, and he's like, well, just take the edge off. Okay. Well, that could be one or I'll get aggravated and I need to have a drink calmed down. Well, that's, that's flag number two, you know? So if you have to ask yourself, well, I have a problem or should, you know, maybe I'll look into this or whatever.

Then chances are there probably is one. Yeah. And that could be I mean, like, so what's the edge? And it could be there's there's variations of what the solution could be. Right. It could be total sobriety. It could be you deal with the issue and then you're able to not use that as a crutch because that varies by person too, right? As far as kind of a blanket solution, I guess if you'd say because everyone's different. But to your point, it seems like if you're asking questions or you're using something to deal with something that you're not really dealing with. Correct.

Right. That's a good checklist. And like with me, I'm genetically predisposed to alcoholism from my family, from my mom's side and my dad's side. That's one issue. The career field, the stressors and everything else, and me making poor choices as far as how to manage the stressors, um, didn't help either. Um,

and you know, when you drink, it feels good or whatever. And it's a temporary relief from that. But, you know, when you get up the next morning, you know,

you're still have financial problems. You're still in debt. You still have no money, you know, or, you know, you're, um, you still have no money you know or you know you're um you still have a boss at work or whatever it is that's driving that you know

right um or maybe a combination of all of it those problems still exist um and and after a period of time the only only thing that using those liquid decompression will do, the only thing it will do will complicate whatever issues you currently have. and maybe you ought to explore that either through talking to a counselor or EAP through work there's organizations out there such as AA, NA or whatever there's meetings literally everywhere at all times

of the day if not in person then they're online that you can attend and I remember the first AA meeting I went to, I was scared to death. And you have in your mind what AA is going to look like. And I remember going in to sit down at my first meeting and then listening to people talk. And then as they were talking, I'm like, oh shit, that's me. That's me. That's oh shit that's me it's me that's me that's me and you know it helps you realize that you know you're not by yourself in that fight um and two

sometimes you know in it gives you the opportunity to talk to people that have been there you know done that right t-shirt and how to better handle your problems and stuff like that. I hear this a lot in meetings, especially from some old-timers and stuff that say, well,.aa initially was going to go there, they're going to teach

me how to drink responsibly or whatever. Well, that's not exactly how it works. But it does teach you how to deal with that deeper problem one of the parts in that the article that i write you know is you know talk about you know we can think of people throughout our career that we've known or or a person or multiple people that are you know world you know partiers or they drank quite a bit or whatever. And they're always the life of the party and all that other stuff. But,

you know, wherever, stop to think about, you know, what causes that real heavy intense drinking and stuff like that. And a lot of times, you know, the substance abuse part is only a small symptom of a much larger problem. You know, dealing with those trauma issues or relational issues or whatever the driving force is. But, you know, also in our culture, everybody wants to be, you know, they don't want to appear to be weak.

I mean, I would say there's a lot of, there might be just a couple of type A personalities going around in public safety. And it's very difficult to ask for help. And I know for me, and to some extent even today, that I wouldn't ask for help for a drama. But it's a change in mindset. And also, there needs to be a change in our culture that it's okay to not be okay. Because we ask our people to go out and do superhuman stuff. To endure a lot of craziness, a lot of traumas, a lot of everything. And to not have any issues about it. I mean, you think of veterans coming back from the various operations that we have going on throughout the world, and especially like our special operators and stuff that are really you know, really in the, you know, pretty

intense stuff a lot. We ask them to do a lot of stuff for our country. In the context of public safety, we ask firefighters, cops, EMS providers to do a lot of extraordinary stuff for our community and then to not be affected by that. Right. You know, I think the public's perception is that we're infallible. That is definitely not the case. We're human too. Our military

vets and operators are human too. You can compartmentalize a lot of stuff for a certain amount of time yeah that's gonna it's gonna come out right one way or the other yeah you know i've listened to some podcasts of you know guys that are you know in tier one teams and stuff like that and they talk about their issues with post-trauma and and you know the things that have happened with you know drug use alcohol use and so forth yeah and um and you know That may be a temporary fix for a little bit, but it's definitely not a finite solution for that problem.

You had asked earlier what caused me to write this article. Writing an article was nothing that I've ever had an aspiration to do or anything. The only thing, writing that I've ever had an aspiration to do or anything. The only thing writing that I've ever turned in was at a leadership school that I went to. I mean, that was about the extent of it. After going through the FBI leader program, you get emails all the time about upcoming classes or whatever, kind of like any other class you take.

They're trying to get you back in to take classes. But usually when I'm going through my basket of email, that's one of the ones that's like a delete, from Lita. And I glanced at the screen and said, you know, basically it was a solicitation flyer for articles for a magazine. And I told you, I don't know how this happened or how my email stopped on that.

I know exactly how it happened. It wasn't, it was a good Lord saying, hey, take a look at this. And so,

in the flyer, it said, you know, what subjects they were looking for, which were, you know, obviously leadership,

you know, articles, tactical leadership, you know, obviously leadership, you know, articles, tactical leadership, you know, and then there was a part in there about mental health and wellness response or response to mental health stuff and then wellness. So, you know, mine went to the, you know, the class that I taught in the Metro Ridge School. So I'm like, so, saw the editor's email address, shot her an email, said, hey, first let me say just like I told you, I've never submitted anything ever in my paper

for a leadership school. I said, but I teach this class about, I said it may be a little tab and said but I teach this class about I said it may be you know a little taboo but it's about

substance abuse and public safety and you think this would be

something that would be well received or however it was that I phrased it

and she replied back and said yeah I mean I think our readers would enjoy

something like that. A very generic, positive response. Yeah. Good job, man. That's interesting. Right. So, there are 700 words or something like that,

which proved to be fairly challenging and then he had a similar bio and a picture and all this other stuff so I sat down to work on a job basically just had to sit at a desk and started to do a rough draft you know the deadline was kind of short I was about to go out of town and didn't think i'd meet the deadline so i sat down just to you know see what came out and like within a couple hours i'd bring this thing out was it uh therapeutic because you know journaling is a good tool right to deal with stuff that i've found helpful did you find that it provided that a little bit for you? It, it did. Um, I mean, I didn't learn about to say that where you're like, no, no, no, I don't,

I don't journal. Um, I don't write that. I mean, uh, I have before, but I just, I don't know, I don't know what to say. Basically writing a note to myself. So, um, but, uh, yeah, writing a note to myself. I don't know what that is. But I banged out the article and then you had to do a bio, right? So I looked up previous editions

to see what people's bios look like so I could be kind of consistent. I didn't want to write some big flowery thing, whatever that was needed. So when I looked at the previous editions, I saw the people

that had submitted articles or had them published were all like PhDs, MPAs, all these acronyms after their letters. And then, to take you back to what I was saying earlier, I don't have any acronyms. That's my name, other than

DA for dumbass. And I'm like, and the chiefs of police and commissioners and commissioners and stuff like that. I'm like, well, hey, I gave it a shot. So I submitted it. And prior to that, I met with our current sheriff, who was very instrumental in helping me get myself straight from the 18-month period. Very supportive, wonderful, wonderful agency head. And, you know, this was going to have our agency's name in it. And it would be attached to her, you know, in some respect. Yeah. And, you know, you know, political officer, you know,

I didn't want to have any negative impact on her or anything like that, or the agency or the county for that matter. And so let her read it and told her the, you know, how things had come about. And I said, you know, so I wrote this. So before I send it in, I want to, I want you to read it and see what you think. And she read it and slid it back to me. She goes, send it. I want you to get that out there back by like June 5th or something like that that's when they'd have

the selections made I didn't hear anything past that you know did a follow up email didn't hear anything back from that and I was like okay well I got my answer yeah I'll try and then I get an email like a day or so later said hey sorry

but yeah you're going to be published. I'm like, what? Dang. I was like, well, thank you. I appreciate it. I'll make sure that I invite you to the red carpet when I'm going to accept my award. Nice. I'm not making a joke out of it. nice um but anyway so you know it came out um in the magazine

I mean it's not typically a publication you see on a magazine rack somewhere in the pharmacy but you know in my biggest hope is that if anything it sparks conversation um within agencies

about how they deal with issues related to substance abuse and with their personnel. Because in my first experience, it was pretty obvious what was going to happen in very short order with no longer being employed by this agency. And that's a pretty common practice, I think, in a lot of agencies where you redo all of these things that expose us to these stressors and traumas and all that. And it's not just one thing that causes a substance abuse issue. It's usually a compounding of issues.

Those things translate to home and creations at home. And it's just one huge spiraling ball of mess. And a lot of that can be attributed to work stuff. Yeah. And I think we owe it to our personnel that, you know, like no call for service is ever the same. There's always mitigating factors in that call that, you know, kind of affect your OTA loop, right?

Right. And I think we should look at those personnel issues much the same way. that call that you know kind of affect your OTA loop right right and and I think we should look at those personnel issues much the same way that you know there is no one situation that is going to be the same as any others as far as personnel matters go. And not every personnel matter is terminal. So when I was permitted to transfer to the sheriff's office, that sheriff at the time was all about recovery and stuff. And in our jails, he had created a recovery program

for our inmates that had, you know, substance abuse issues and stuff like that. And that program still exists today. And our current sheriff is very much about that. office that have involved certain issues and stuff and provided that the degree of that issue, they're given help. I mean, they're directed to help regardless of what the issue is. But again, not every personnel matter is terminal. And, you know, you don't have to apply the knee-jerk reaction to every single thing. And I would just encourage police or public safety administrators or, you know, agency heads or whatever to look at the entirety of the situation before deciding how to dispose of that. So, you know, I think as long as that member is truthful and candid about the situation

and they're willing to receive help, then I think we owe it to our people to do everything in our power to help them out. And we're charged by virtue of our office in being compassionate human beings to help people out on the street that we encounter on a call for service.

A lot of times we go to extreme lengths to get them help that they need. Why won't we do that for our people? That's a great point. I think, too, your use of the OODA loop, right? Observe,

orient, decide, act is not just for the sexy tactical stuff, the calls on the street, but the way that you said, or, you know, that,

that I heard it too. So if you're a leader of a public safety agency or super, but whatever level supervisor doing that for your people, right? So you, you're observing your people, maybe see that behavior, you're going to orient yourself to like, what's really going on here. And then that key decision point where

you're talking about, like, if, if we're going to decide to help folks that have committed crimes, right. And help get their substance abuse treated, why would we not do that for the folks that swore to defend others and to then, then still take care of those folks. And then, and then that last part act on it. I think it's a great point and really showed just awesome leadership to say, I'm going to look at you first. I'm going to get to the fire behind the smoke that I see in this rough patch that's happening with you now. That's pretty awesome.

And that 18-month run that I was talking about, you know, it came to the point that I was obviously needing some intervention. Yeah. The former sheriff and the current sheriffday program to get myself straight you know and there were a lot of things that I realized a lot of relations and in looking inward you know things that I needed to fix and worked on fixing out there and that's that's a constant progress through until I take my last breath. But it's always a work in progress.

It's not anything you can snap your fingers and fix. But it's something that requires a lot of work and a lot of practice. And it's not to be perfect. There are going to be things that could be trigger mechanisms or whatever that pop up here or there. It's not so much what that trigger is,

but how you deal with that stimulus. If you get pissed off by the spouse or somebody from your past that you have a resentment against or whatever happens to pop up. Are you going to go drink at them or are you going to work that serenity

prayer that says, do I have any control over this? If I do, what can I do to fix that situation? But a lot of times we don't have control over it. A friend of mine in the A-rooms, if you're not familiar with the serenity

prayers, God granted me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference, which I default to a lot of stuff. What can I do to fix this? i can't then you know i

need to let that go but anyway one of my one of my friends in the room says hey uh you know the short version of the serenity prayer like like that's that's about it yeah there you go the um yeah i did a um episode on faith which for me in the past few months whether it's religious faith or you believe in the trees or like whatever deity or just something bigger than yourself right how you define it right which is a big thing of a like whatever you believe in or how you define it god as you believe it as you define it um it just helps right so say someone's totally not religious at all to your point you could cut out part of the serenity you could cut shortcut just right to fuck it or you or cut out you know the god part and just be like look what can i control what can i control go from there and it still applies whether you're an atheist christian

boot like whatever you know that you believe um one thing too that you touched on uh earlier i don't remember what time saver was but uh 25 of leos right across all leos have substance abuse and i did a quick google i'll put where i got this from but so let's say there were like 660,000 law enforcement officers in 2021. That's 165,000 people, right? People that swear an oath, people that show up when, you know, run toward the gunfires. They say when people are running the other way into the burning house, sitting there like you did when you were young or like they're older, doing CPR, trying to save your mother, father, child, whatever's going on.

And I think to your point, it's so one, the news doesn't help, right? Because now it's 24 seven, they're always looking for an angle to just like somebody with a cell phone trying to catch something, not realizing that they're not catching the aftermath of the call when the weight of not being able to save somebody hits you, or you lose your buddy, or you know, the other, the other percentage of the other stats, you know, with public safety is divorce rates are higher. Life expectancy is lower. Suicide rates are higher. Right.

So this, this impression of like, you know, if it's out there that you have to be perfect and it's just, oh, it's a great, it's this altruistic. And, and, you know, you mentioned being excited. And I think we're all the same way as we say like squirrely when you're younger and you're like, yeah, I want to go to that call. And then you go, Oh, that's the reality. And then when that builds and builds and builds and you have layers of that, you know, stuff in your heart and your mind and everywhere, it's like, Oh man, it becomes super easy to pop a pill, have a drink, um, you know, do whatever, or let the rage take over all these kinds of things. And, um, you know, do whatever, or let the rage take over all these kinds of things. And, um, the other, the other term I like that you use, and then I've

heard more in a changeable is PTS post-traumatic stress instead of PTSD post-traumatic stress disorder, right? Because in how I've seen it and you, you know, jump into is right. It's, it's not normal to see, you know, horrible things to see a body rearranged after a car accident, right? How it doesn't look when it was just walking down the street. And it's not a disorder to be screwed up by that, right? Repetitively seeing stuff like that, or, you know, having your friends killed a lot of do you're something, you know, we're just getting, you know, firefighters, a lot of them get cancer, right? The rate is higher too, so it sucks. Have you heard the same or in your education on PTS versus PTSD,

is that why you chose to use PTS in the article? I kind of agree with you. That's not a disorder. It's almost a matter of fact. And I think when you put that disorder label on it, it has a negative connotation to it. It kind of goes against that whole part of it's okay to not be okay. Look at what we do every day or look what you did for 25, 30 years, it's okay to not be alright. It's to be expected. And the thing is that

when you come to that realization that you seek help, and there's tons and tons of resources out there. When you talk about rates, the percentages and stuff, in that article I'll talk about some comparisons between public safety and regular society or regular citizens. Right, yeah. So in the community, the rate of substance abuse is less than 10% compared to you know that 25 in law enforcement let's see pts rates seven to nineteen percent of uh street law enforcement and then the other part of doing there are about 26 percent in corrections that's high. And that's the highest of any career field.

And there's reasons for that. You know, like in law enforcement, after a bad call, you can go to 7-Eleven, get a cup of coffee, you can go up door to door and talk to your friend, whether it's about that call or just talking in general. Something other than having to get back immediately to work. Firefighters, getting back to the station, getting back in the recliners. Pit that kitchen table. Here's a little

shit between police and firefighters. Corrections folks work either in the prisons or the jails, you know, they don't have that latitude, you know, after everything is cleared, you know, that kind of stuff, they're back on post. They don't get that, that downtime. Um, I wonder, you know, that was, sorry, that was part of my question is, is environmental if that's a factor, because it's also not like you, you're, you can then go, if it's a tough ride home and it's a beautiful day, you're outside driving through wherever you live, right? You're in a jail or a prison, which I would imagine is a pretty horrible place to be. And then if something – whatever happens throughout that time, you can't get away from it.

I wondered if it was the environment of it at least getting some decompression. It's a chronic exposure for about 12 hours a day. Even on your days off, a lot of times folks are volunteering to work overtime because the agency is short. It's pretty much any agency. I mean, you look at police departments now,

I mean, they have mandatory overtime for their personnel because they're so short, stuff like that. But the chronic exposure and continuous exposure to stressors, the yelling and screaming, the beating and banging, the verbal attacks, physical attacks, whatever, it wears on you after a while. But 7-19% of street law enforcement, 26% of corrections, and that's compared to 3.5% in the community, 3.5% in the community.

And then the substance abuse rates just in law enforcement, 25% compared to 10% in the community. But whether it's community or in public safety, I mean, it's half of those that

seek treatment for post-trauma also have the coexisting problem with substance abuse. So, you know, because that's their mechanism to try to deal with that. Yeah. Which is, you know, may create a temporary relief, but it's certainly not going to be permanent. And did you find, like you mentioned, employee assistance program, which I would imagine most agencies, most professional agencies have that, right? Most companies in general, whether they're public safety or not, have that. Is that an avenue that you used and that you found helpful to use a combination of that plus private services and you know do you have any

advice for folks as far as which one to use or just reach out and try something well and the um i guess my first evolution um i went through our localities uh mental health services okay they had a substance abuse program. Um, and after that, I didn't see anybody. You know, I didn't go to a, it was just kind of, you know,

Hey, I got this. Gotcha. Clearly. I did. Um, the second time I started to see a, um,

counselor, um, you know, just a private counselor and stuff that had a specialty in post-traumatic illness, substance abuse, and that kind of thing, and deals with a lot of public safety personnel as well. Oh, good. And I still see him every once in a while, basically as a tune-up, and saw him after

treatment, and set up through the treatment center and confirmed with them that I had a counselor set up and so forth. So the combination of wanting to see him, and really, very rarely do we talk about some of the new stuff. I mean, it's basically like, hey, how's things going you know talk about you know different life events or whatever and i'm a little serious unless it's something that needs to be discussed or whatever um but because of that instead of going you know once a week or once every other week now i'm seeing you know once every two months once every three months, something like that. So, you know, it can attribute a lot of that to routine attendance with AA.

Because inevitably, when you go to those meetings, somebody will say something that you can relate to. Or maybe something that's, and this has happened to me many times, where I have something on my mind and sure enough, that'll be the topic for the night.

You know, that's, that's nothing but divine intervention. Yeah. So, so, yeah, the biggest is,

I mean, Google is a wonderful tool. Yeah. And you can find a lot of help there, or if not, you know, call your localities's mental health services. I think some jurisdictions call them community service boards.

Oh, yeah. Or whatever. That's what I have here, yeah. And if they don't have a substance abuse program themselves, they can surely steer you in the right direction. I ask because I would imagine that could be part of either a real or perceived barrier that, say, just using your example, or let's say someone has 10 years on the job, right? Pretty decent chunk of experience.

They've been in whatever public safety program, both sick and law enforcement. And then they go to talk to a counselor who just graduated, right? From they have no relational experience. They're going to say, well, here's these steps. Let's follow the, you know what I mean? And so they, they can't relate either, either through, which is probably hard to get someone that has all the same things or can relate kind of to, you know, because they were either in public safety and became a counselor or they've worked a long time and specialized

in it. So at least they've had exposure over time and specialized in it. So at least they've had exposure over and over again, um, which I think was a great thing. There was, you know, in the city, just on the road, I did the crisis intervention team training, which, which one I recommend, I think it's awesome training, but they were out in the field with folks, um, not the replacement mental health response. That's a whole different discussion. We won't get into now but but they had exposure to it right so they were they you know they weren't just going by the book and

trying to tell you what to do because the book said it it's because of the 200 other people that are in public safety i've talked to but i i think and i've heard that can be a barrier because the impression someone might get so you may try somewhere and it's not exactly a fit, but that doesn't mean stop trying. Try another one. It's like any service. The first primary care physician might not be your favorite or whatever, so go to another one.

Well, I mean, you know, like after when wife number two were going through you know marital counseling and stuff like that we went to go see one counselor and the dude

drugged me I mean it was it was a waste of time I mean he got nothing out of it the second one was much much better obviously I mean

didn't exactly pan out so but I mean't know anything to do with the gals yeah um so um so you know but to your point you know you got to find that right right and you know in the abuse issues um it's it's kind of hard to relate to a new counselor that has their experiences based on the book. They can give you some academic insight or whatever. But I think there's a lot of folks that are in recovery that become counselors because they see the good and the positivity of that. And the benefit of that is they can recognize the bullshit.

When you're trying to spin a tale and rationalize something, they're like, nah, no. Because they've been there, done that, got the t-shirt, and they can call you the bullshit, which is very helpful. That's super valuable. There's another, so we have a had an interview coming up with the director of the all clear foundation. So if you, if people Google that, that are listening to this, it has similar kind of mental and physical resources.

And I'll get into that more in the future episode, but also we'll put some links maybe in the, in the video and the podcast description to'll put some links maybe in the video, in the podcast description too. Just, you know, there's a, I know I've looked in other episodes I've done where you can kind of go search and find like wherever you live in the United States, your local mental health. And then of course, through your employer, you should be able to find your employee assistance

program with your HR department or something like that. And it seems like big factors that I thought of, you know, to two words is not letting your ego and not letting the environment dictate like how you do or don't take care of yourself, which is super hard when you're not in the mind space to want to take care of yourself because you're just dealing with getting to your next shift or whatever. And then when you're in the environment of, Hey, let's go, you know, knock them back or, you know, you don't want to have their perception or whatever, but would you say in year 26 that it has gotten better though, um, throughout your career, as far as, um, people talking about it more, uh, just dealing even with, you know,

trauma or just the job itself, um, issues at work outside of work or do you think there's still a long way to go um i think we've made tremendous progress um i remember when i first came on um 26 years ago that i mean it was like taboo to even mention mental health or go to mental health. There was several reasons for that. One, at that time, and it's not the case anymore, at least not with this locality, at that time, there was a lot of leak back from mental health to the police department and so anytime anybody went

there to get help it was all over the place within a couple of days right and so people are like yeah well get that i'm not you know and so they didn't deal with stuff because they didn't want their business being put out there whatever it was was. That has gotten exponentially better to the point that it's not even an issue. But I think recognition of issues has gotten a lot better and directing people to the resources they need has gotten a lot better in directing people to the resources they need has gotten a lot better.

And the support has gotten a lot better. It's perfect, not by any stretch of the imagination, but it has gotten a lot, lot better than what it used to be. And I think that folks are starting to realize that not everybody is infallible and it's okay to not be okay. And the thing is that I think when we can stop judging people, there's nobody on this planet that's perfect, and maybe try to empathize a little bit and put yourselves in their shoes

how would you handle that situation that they may be enduring or whatever and there's a lot of people that are great actors and actresses that are probably going through

probably one of the toughest and darkest times of their entire life, but put on their game face every day. And nobody has any idea whatsoever what they're dealing with internally. And I think when we realize that, the better off that

we're going to be. And exercise some empathy with each other, not just with the car that we deal with out on the street, but with each other. It's a great, uh, I'm sure. I think something cool to say, but you just said it. Nice work. I mean, and it's, it's so true. I mean, um, so I'll, I'll link to the article, right? I don't know if your contact info, if folks have questions, right? If they're like, hey, I need an idea if it's in there or not.

But we can share that too. But also, thanks, man, not just for this podcast, but I know you've helped me. I reached out to you and was having a tough time. Also, Hank's meme game is 100% number one. We spent months together getting ready for this big bike race. And then it was kind of like a pre-department workup. And then nine days where we had a great time and then also couldn't stand each other. It was like, just tell me the information.

Let's get it on Imagine Update. And thousands of lines of spreadsheets. So GPS devices work every day. Right, right. But thank you for the compliment on the meme game i appreciate it um actually during mass bags um i was able to actually create memes even even better so i asked trevor about a couple oh my yeah uh actually when we get off the phone i'll tell you something they were they're pretty classic so nice yeah for folks so i've if you've listened to the show when it was between the slides it's funny you say between the ferns because now i actually have two plants and i

didn't do this on purpose it just looked good sorry zach galifianakis i'm not trying to stir your thunder you're funnier than me anyway but um then and um gosh you know people i've talked about kind of you know i was on it's a management planning section chief so we have all of us that were playing chiefs into the planning section text each other constantly uh but this guy's one i reached out to when i had hard time earlier this year and that we know we reach out to each other and you know for folks listening if any of this resonated just know you're not alone. Right. And I think that's critical because you can feel like you're on an island. It can be so dark.

You're unmotivated. Don't go down the road. Some folks have gone where they take their own life. Don't go down the road where you get caught in the spiral of the habit of coming home and taking whatever substance you choose to take legal or not legal. If you need help, if you have ideas, reach out, um,

go to Kevin talks, pod.com. My contact info is there. I can connect you. Like I said, we've got another, um, all clear foundation, uh,

coming up and lots of resources there. Um, I'll link an article or the link to the article here as well. And we'll just, we'll get a bunch of resources, but don't give up. Keep fighting. Thanks so much for your service,

everybody. Thanks for your service, man. Uh, both, uh, in the us.gov, uh, DOD and, um, public safety. Um, I really appreciate it. Um, I just, yeah, really appreciate your time. First video. I appreciate you doing this. Um, um, um, feel free to link my information as well. I mean, I'd be happy to talk to anybody or any agencies or anything like that.

I'd be happy to put on a class for in-service or whatever. Because I think a lot of folks don't realize how deep that issue is that exists. And unfortunately, it's that pink elephant in the room that nobody wants to talk about. But as a matter of fact, it's not pink elephant in the room that nobody wants to talk about but it's a matter of fact and it's you know not so much the problem but what are we going to do to try to mitigate it so and by you doing this helps tremendously

so I appreciate you for the work that you're doing Roger that thanks man cool thanks everybody for listening for now I gotta fly