The People, Process, & Progress Podcast - How to Public Health and Healthcare Can Apply Lessons from The Mann Gulch Fire Tragedy to COVID-19 Response | PPP #18

Episode Date: April 30, 2020

Overview and suggested actions to take after reading the article "How the Mann Gulch Fire became part of the conversation about COVID-19".

On August 5th, 1949, 13 firefighters died in Helena National Forest in Helena, Montana, in what is known as the Mangulch Fire. Those who died are Robert J. Bennett, Eldon E. Dieter, James O. Harrison, William J. Hellman, Philip R. McVeigh, David R. Navin, Leonard L. Piper, To them, we wish the family's Godspeed. And to those that survived are Wagner Dodge, Walter B. Rumsey, and Robert W. Sally. So what does this fire from the 1940s and the unfortunate lives lost have to do with COVID-19? And why on People Process Process episode 18, Mangold Pandemics in Progress, are we going back in the history books to learn?

Well, I'm a big fan of learning from our history. And a friend of mine and mentor recently shared an article from April 13th, 2020, that was written on wildfire today.com called how the Mangold's Fire Became Part of the Conversation About COVID-19. How it became part of the conversation is through a New York Times interview from April 2020 with Dr. Carter Meacher, M-E-C-H-E-R, who's the Senior Medical Advisor to the Department of Veteran Affairs. What Wildfire Today notes is that Dr. Meacher mentions in his interview the Mangold's Fire three times in his relation, and we'll get into some great key points that he talks about that are really, I think, in line with that foundational four that you all have come to know and love.

And again, thank you all for coming back and listening, subscribing. Please hit the subscribe button, listen to each episode, give it a rating. Really appreciate it. The more stars, the more we'll jump up and get the word out about project management, incident management, and all these folks that were able to talk to and interview. So Dr. Meacher mentions a timeline, and there's another publication that's also linked in this article called The Mangold's Fire, A Race That Couldn't Be Won. And what that speaks to and what it provides a great timeline and after action to the unfortunate events. But, you know, the race that couldn't be won speaks to and is related to a pandemic, right?

It spreads a fire. You can see a little bit more, but you can't control it, right? We just kind of try and direct it. We try and stop it. A pandemic, same thing. It's very hard to stop depending on which way the wind blows, the fire goes, depending on where the people go, the virus goes, right? There's so many correlations and we'll kind of get into that. But Dr. Meacher mentions that. So he mentions three times in his article. And so he references certain timelines that are in the after-action report from the Mangold's fire,

from that race that couldn't be won, so go check that out, and I'll link to it in the show notes. So here are some quotes with timelines, our current timelines, that were in emails from Dr. Meacher to the Times, and then how he equates that to the Mangold's fire. And so this email is from February 20th of 2020, and Dr. Meacher says, Remember the story about Mangold's. We are at the equivalent of about 544, meaning PM. I anticipate that when we reach 545, there's going to be chaos and panic to get anything in place. I doubt that what we would then hurriedly put in place will be any better than what we did on that cruise ship. As a consequence, we'll expect much

the same results, right? So So in February he's talking about how do we manage sick folks on a ship. We're all panicking, we're all coming together with this pandemic that is similar to I'm on a hill, I've jumped in, I'm in a bad spot, we have to get away, we're starting to go back uphill realizing we are not going to cut a line or fight this fire, we have to get out.

And so imagine or think about the equivalent of that in the world, right? Cases spring up in China. They spring up in Italy. They spring up other places. They start spreading. Everyone goes, what do we do? But look back at what you've practiced to do, right? So what have you practiced to do? Is there a precedent for you or your organization, your country, your state? For some places there was, for some places there wasn't or isn't, but hopefully that's part of the process we're all undergoing to make progress, right? So the second email, the second message is from February 27th from Dr. Meacher, who says,

that would suggest we already have a significant outbreak and we are well behind the curve. We are now well past the equivalent of 545 moment at Mangulch. You can't outrun it. And so just like the fire, eventually 13 of those firefighters couldn't outrun it, right? The fire, the winds was moving so fast. The fire was moving so fast. They were fatigued. They had dropped tools, which was not a regular thing, they're wearing heavy equipment. And they couldn't get away from it. So by the time that the world that the US that your state that wherever, you know, did what they did, put whatever they did in place. And you know, this isn't, you know, debate, but feel free to send me information, your comments, et cetera, at peopleprocessprogress at gmail.com or on the Facebook page. But I think it's a very good comparison between when you're

in a situation and you realize, man, this is really bad. Sometimes you realize it too late. And so I think ongoing and after COVID and for future pandemic improved planning, maybe we need earlier triggers, right? Maybe we need to practice more as we've kind of said. So I think his equation is true. And then in the 40s, you know, that's not long after even folks have been parachuting, let alone that there's, you know, the the training that exists now and the lookouts and the different things that exist in the wild and far world. And I'm not really a wild and fire guy. I just know of it from cross-training with some of those folks. And now with pandemics, he has a great comparison.

So I would urge everyone to read the Mangulch Fire, a race that couldn't be won. That's got the after-action report that will fill in some of these details. And so this third bullet from Dr. Meacher on March 12th says, there's no value to travel restrictions. Now this is where it gets a little iffy, but the man Gulch comparisons there, but this would turn out not so accurate as the article says. There's no value in travel restrictions,

a waste of time and energy. The lesson from man Gulch was to drop those things that are not essential. That lesson was not heated. I wouldn't waste a moment of time on travel restrictions. We have nearly as much disease here in the U S as countries in Europe. So those statements aside, which, you know, which turned out however, the piece in there I think that's key is the lesson from Mangulch was to drop those things that are not essential. That lesson was not heeded. So we see quotes about essential and non-essential workers. We see quotes about people buying a bunch of, or new stories rather, toilet paper, food,

this and that. So when we see something coming, when we see a pandemic coming, do we look at earlier, okay, let's start having folks work from home. Let's start testing them work from home. Let's test their connections before we know we're going to have to do this, right? What's not essential and how do we phase it out? Look at all the different hospitals. Let's not do these elective things. Let's set up some sort of remote screening ahead of time so we don't have sick folks coming to the hospital. All these different things and businesses that are looking at continuity of operations, what is not an essential service that we can either change a little bit or do completely without. And just in

good continuity of operations planning, that should exist. Like that should be in every continent. And I've talked about this before of, you know, we should have the 100%, 75%, 50%, 25% plans for power, people, stuff. That's a very generalized thing. But I thought it was very interesting. It's a good, well-written article on wildfire today. Like I said, I'll link to it. And since then, this was in the 40s,

there's been so many lessons learned. A key one that the foreman that Wagner Dodge did was he made an escape fire. He lived because he stepped to the side, he moved to wherever he did. He lit a fire to burn the fuel all around him so he'd be what's called in the black, meaning he's in the burned out area already.

And so the fire, there's nothing to burn there, right? So if you light a fire where you are, let it burn out, the fire, right? There's nothing to burn. And so he survived that. He tried to get his folks to go in there and they didn't. There was confusion.

They'd never trained like this before. No one had ever done it before. It's the first time that an escape fire had been lit. So innovation on the fly during an emergency, the worst kind of emergency. And the other two folks that lived, lived because they got in kind of a rocky outcrop area. So think about today, were there early warning signs and people that were saying, hey, we need to do a lot more now? Yes. Are there people doing that for a project when things start to go sideways and we notice those cylinders of excellence or silos, people aren't talking to each other. We're spending too much time. Are there folks that bring that up, but it's not received as a message? Yes. So how do we close

that communication gap? Mangold's was a really hard way to find that out, to find this tactic that worked that's now a standard in the wildland fire service. I think hopefully what too becomes a standard in pandemic response and making progress and just working together after COVID-19 is let's be way more proactive. Let's actually practice, as I've said, all those things that are on our documents. Let's put those into motion, right? We have to well ahead of time. So be the early warning, but also be someone that can adapt, right? Just like Wagner Dodge adapted and said, you know what?

If I burn all the fuel here, I'll be safe. The fire can't get me. I'm going to drop the tools just like he told his men to do. They'd never practiced that before. So, okay, every organization, how can we send everybody home and work remotely, right? Which if you think about it now, how can we provide patient care remotely, not in person? So telemedicine just exploding now, right? So thinking in, in emergencies, innovations that we can do that can save lives literally now

that can make companies more efficient. Um, and, and, you know, that's what happened at Mangulch. It saved lives and that's's what's happening now with COVID-19. And there's some great outcomes, some great lessons learned that I want to share that are already well written. I don't really need to paraphrase them a whole lot. But the writer of this interviewed Dr. Meacher. And so the wildfiretoday.com article. And so here's some great lessons learned as they relate to the

Mangold's fire and pandemics. So you cannot wait for the smoke to clear. Once you see things clearly, it is already too late. You will need to be comfortable living with uncertainty and incomplete information and make the best decisions you can. This is like, um, in episode 10 of between the slides, you know, over a year ago, I talked about what's called the time wedge. And a good example of that is the longer time goes. And if you think of a triangle where the, you know, the, the point is to the right, um, you know, options in time come together at some point where you're out of both of them. And so just like in man Gulch, where they ran out of time, right, they couldn't get far enough away. They couldn't drop tools fast enough, they, you know, couldn't get it get everyone to the black burned area, it was too late. And so by the time you wait for

the rumbling on your project team to get so bad, or be so behind on schedule or be so behind on resources, it might be too late, right, then you're doing what I've had to do and kind of recover service, kind of bring folks back together, do better change management, just, you know, kind of do that. But, you know, you can't wait until the smoke is clear. And the other good thing, which we've talked about here before, is when you're in a crisis, when you're in an emergency, you know, don't perfect is the enemy of good.

So you need to, yes, abide by the laws that you can. Some have changed, right? Like HIPAA. But you need to do the best that you can for the most people as quickly as you can. And then circle back as a lot of folks are doing now. I know I am to say, now how do we make this a permanent, the right way solution? But in the heat of things, you do what you need to do. The second thing in the article is you can't outrun a wildfire or an epidemic, right? You can't. By the time you turn to run, it's already upon you. And an epidemic, as we've talked about in previous episodes with public health preparedness and response and stuff, you can't see it. It's not a fire that's visible.

So there's no extra water to put on it. There's no extra security, those kinds of things. And so it's very scary and you cannot run it. You just need to manage it, manage the consequence, manage the impact, train on responding to it, testing, all that kind of stuff. The third of the points is in an emergency, you need to figure out what is important and what is not. And that means you might need to drop things you thought or were taught were essential and to hold on to those things that are most important, right? So what did we think was essential and important for decades?

People physically being in an office space, right? What is most important? That our people are working together and communicating. It doesn't matter where they do it from. That's a hard lesson that every organization across the world is learning right now. The last part of the statement is you just need the wisdom to across the world is learning right now. The last part of the statement is you just need the wisdom to discern the difference between what's important and what isn't and the strength to drop things that aren't important, right?

Because we want to hold on. And I remember when I was a new planning section chief, I wanted to hold on so tightly to the process. We're not going to deviate. We need to do this, this, and this. And the good part of that is I drove people to get to the point where they were detailed so that when they didn't have time to do all of the process, like I eventually learned, they at least knew the details to fill in to get what they needed

to be done. And that was part of the early evolution of plucking out those foundational four objectives or chart resources and communication stuff. And it's hard to drop that. So you need to look at yourself, drop your ego, drop the silos, the collar devices, the org things and say, look, what's important. The important thing is, our organizations, electronic medical records can talk to each other, our, you know, industry, competitors can get together and figure out, okay, what's the best way we can coordinate a response or share resources? Like, we just got to just do it because it's the right thing to do. The fourth of these statements is when in the middle of a fast moving crisis, continue to ask yourself, what is the equivalent of an escape fire? You know,

and that's a great analogy. So that escape fire where you have an out that, you know, for Wagner Dodge saved his life? Or what's your escape fire for getting out of a project that's not going well, right for your organization? So do you have kind of that, you know, the strength to drop things that aren't important. The other side of that is have the strength to escalate things that are right. So So you need to, if you're a project manager out there listening, be comfortable with yourself and with your leadership to be able to say, look, this isn't going well. We need to, we need to escalate and say, look, do we want to carry on with this? We need to escalate to, you know, your teammates leader, to the vendors leader, to your own leader. And sometimes you just have to do that. It's not great.

It's not fun, but that is a strength that has to be done. And just like you have to look at your team and on the fly, give an impromptu order that they might not be used to or have practiced before. Just like Wagner Dodge did running up the hill saying, drop tools, just leave them. And the crew's like, we've never done that before. But you know what, when a fire is coming after you, like in a pandemic, like in another emergency, and you say, hey, we're going to set up at this hospital at this hotel, you know, to do medical care. Well, we've never done that. But you know what, it's a need that has to happen on the fly. So think of your contingency plans as your escape fires right using those that um pace model right what's your primary plan on a sunny day when everything's going well what's your alternate plan

when you know and maybe we're out a few people maybe we don't have as many things what's your contingency plan for you've lost power or a good example of contingency plan is we can't work from here because we can't be near each other anymore, right? To what's the emergency plan? Now we have folks that are exposed or injured or out of work or we're in trouble of losing our business. So this man gulch compared to pandemics and how it could help us all reevaluate and look at how we can make process I think is a great example. I hope I've kind of brought all that together, at least piqued the interest. So I will put the link to the Wildfire Today article about how the Mangold's fire became part of the conversation about COVID-19.

Also to the race that couldn't be won, that article from the Forest Service. And I hope for all of you as we close out April, or if you listen to this in the first few days of May, that we are all making progress as we're working from home remotely with our kids, homeschooling, trying to better ourselves, staying in shape. And it's a tough battle. It's a rollercoaster ride. And I'm probably preaching to the choir out there. So again, I am profoundly thankful for the opportunities to have been on a few podcasts lately. I was on Behind the Shield, which should air soon. I was on People with a Passion, which the YouTube video version and audio version are out. So check those out. I'll link to those with Craig Rowe there

for the Australia. So again, podcasting and the internet's amazing. I had a conversation with someone from Australia last week and it was just awesome. So thank you all very much. Again, please subscribe, share, rate the show. Of course, buy us. I would like a high rating. It would help us get up

and have more people process and progress. We're gonna have great guests lined up next week and thereafter. So thank you all very much for your time. Take care. Godspeed. Stay safe.