The People, Process, & Progress Podcast - Practical Leadership Skills for Engaging Your Employees with Lee Ann Pond | PPP #66

Episode Date: January 25, 2021

Throughout our discussion, we delve into Lee Ann Pond's experience as a Chief Administrative Officer, the challenges of venturing into entrepreneurship, and her journey toward becoming the author of "The Engagement Ring: Practical Leadership Skills for Engaging Your Employees."Find The Engagement Ring on Amazon at https://www.amazon.com/Engagement-Ring-Practical-Leadership-Employees/dp/1544506236

Welcome to the People Process Progress Podcast, where we understand that people are our most important asset. We emphasize and share examples of the importance of shared process so that we can move ourselves, our teams, and our organizations toward progress. I'm the host of the show, Kevin Pinnell. To learn more about me and the show, go to peopleprocessprogress.com. But for now, let's get on with another great episode of the People Process Progress Podcast in 3, 2, 1. Hey, everybody. Thank you so much for coming back to the People Process Progress Podcast, episode 66, Engaging Leadership with Leanne Pond. Leanne, thank you so much for joining us today. Kevin, thanks for having me. I was excited to talk to you. Me as well. By name, we focus on people and processes and hoping to help folks make progress just by listening. I think that's a great thing with the podcast platform and particularly with

you. We met, and I'm sure we'll get into that, just like Rob Lawrence and I at Richmond Ambulance Authority. With you in particular, with developing some leadership things and what you do, I thought perfect fit. I've seen the great posts that you've shared, information you've shared on LinkedIn, and we'll share more of that and how you help folks now and how you did that in the book. But to help folks get to know you a little bit more, can you tell us kind of where you're from and how you got to kind of the point where we met up to where we met at Richmond Ambulance Authority? Okay. Yeah. Well, I'm originally from Toledo, Ohio. And I started out with an accounting degree and an MBA and moved my way up through corporate ranks up there and became a CFO up there for a social service agency. And then I was hired down to Richmond,

Virginia. Actually look for a job down here because my daughter, one of my daughters had married a Richmond police officer. Oh, gotcha. Yeah. Then back then she sent me the Sunday paper with the job ads in it. And I responded to an ad for chief administrative officer for the Richmond Ambulance Authority back in 2007. And they ended up moving me down here. And I worked there for 11 years. And as you said, that's where I met you. But I really enjoyed it. And kind of a CFO kind of thing you end up doing is you get other departments that don't seem to fit anywhere else. So I ended up pretty much the years that I was there with the non-operational departments. So finance, of course, and patient billing, IT, and HR. And the HR piece was, you know,

really illuminating for me. And I found that that's where I really became passionate about developing our leaders. Because, you know, I would see a paramedic who was really good at their clinical skills and they would go through the interview process and they'd be made, promoted to a supervisor. And, you know, the day before they had been out on the ambulance with their coworkers and, you know, on Facebook with them. And then all of a sudden, they're their boss. And how do you navigate that? And that's hard enough to do in any organization, you know, someone who works in an office who suddenly promoted, very difficult to move into a role where you're leading your friends. So that really got me interested in how could we help develop those leaders and any leaders? And, you know, I wanted

to be a good leader and, you know, but how did you know if you really were? And you tried, usually people will avoid doing what their bad bosses had done and try to replicate what their good bosses had done. But, you know, how do any of us really know the right way to do it? So within Richmond Ambulance Authority, I ended up starting a leadership academy, we called it. And so I ran that for from 2009 to 2018 when I left there. And so basically, we kind of created it to be a 12 month program. Every month was a meeting with leaders and emerging leaders. And the topics would range from, you know, operational, clinical, the budget. We would do a month where we did a city tour to become familiar with our more familiar with our community that we were serving. We had our chief medical officer in to give a presentation.

So just basically taking the leaders, and maybe they're coming from administration, or maybe they're coming from operations, and showing them about each other's area. So everybody learning about each other's area. Right. And also learning about our community and about EMS and learning about leadership. So we would have a month, you know, with leadership information and training. Then we had side projects. We had a book club.

Were you there when we did the book club? I was, yes. Yeah. Okay. So everybody got assigned a leadership book and they were in a group with others who read the same book and then they had to do, read it and give a presentation to share with everybody. And so we even had a graduation at the end. Our board of directors was there to congratulate them. And then that class or cohort then became mentors for the next class coming in the next year. And so I guess, yeah, I started to combine those groups, where the new the new group would learn what the other group had learned. And then there would be meetings where we all

met together and continued learning about leadership. So it's a program I really enjoyed. And that program kind of led me to the idea that maybe this is because this is where my passion was, I found. So maybe there's a business in here because I was having trouble finding outside sources to bring in, outside trainers to bring in to teach leadership in a very practical way. Right. So I could find leadership trainers to come in and talk about theory. But I was, you know, our group wanted really step by step. How do I put this in? Right.

Practical application and stuff like that. Yeah, exactly. So I've taken so many leadership courses through the years and you're, you know, pumped up while you're taking it. But you go to work Monday morning and you look around and you think, well, but what do I really do? What's the next step I take? So that's kind of where my interest started going. And I ended up leaving in 2018, leaving Richmond Ambulance Authority. Yeah. Sorry, because I know we'll get into that. Have you, before you started at Richmond Ambulance Authority, had much or any exposure to the public safety world?

I previously worked, the four years before that, I had the same type of position at a social service agency. Okay. So still government, not quite as kind of on the street uniforms, paramilitary-ish. Right, right. Yeah. Richmond Ambulance Authority was my first experience with that. How did you, just from going from corporate role from government to another government entity, kind of a little different, a public safety agency, how did you find, you know, not specific folks, but just kind of that leadership aspect or the organizational aspect when you do get into kind of a rank structure versus, you know, kind of a, uh, the, you know, like, like me now kind of position title structure, but you're not wearing rank. How did you find that as, or was it a challenge or what was, what were some interesting things that you saw when you came into that world as someone that, you know, particularly with HR and all the backbone of keeping things going and paid for it, running like that, but that human element, um, what was a difference that you saw between the people or did you from like the social service

world and the corporate world to public safety? Yeah, that's an interesting question because it was very different and it was so different when I got there. My jobs seemed the same as far as the departments I was running, but I needed to know what the work was that, you know, the mission, what, what, um, you know, the employees were doing, feeling. And so the, one of the first things I did when I got there is I got signed up for an EMT course. Oh, nice. Yeah. So I'd go after work. And, um, first I took it because I wanted to understand what our medics were facing out on the street. Right. So I thought I won't finish it or anything, but I just want to go and do it and understand it.

And, of course, once I got through it, well, then I wanted to do my practical training hours and my ride-alongs. And then, well, I wanted to go ahead and take the tests and see if maybe I could have been certified myself. So I did do that. I did get certified. Oh, wow. That's great. Yeah. And I did keep that, I think, for eight years.

I got recertified. I am a very squeamish person. No one wants me out on any kind of call. Even while I was doing my ride-alongs, I was so scared there was going to be something really bad that I was not going to be able to handle. But luckily there wasn't. And, of course, the crew that I was riding with was very helpful. So but that was eye opening for me because I wanted to see, you know, I want to kind of live what they they were living. So that was the first thing. And then you're right.

That kind of paramilitary, the rankings, I had to figure out what the rankings meant and what the levels were. So that was a very interesting kind of side view to all of that. But then ultimately, you know, it's employees that want to be engaged in their jobs, that need to be engaged, that want the leaders that need to learn leadership skills. So it does boil down to across no matter what industry or type of worker it does. Leadership, I think, boils down to some to the same things. Right. Yeah, that makes sense. And in particular, to your point, you know, folks that one, as you know, you can't be in public safety and any MS in particular, unless you really want to do that because of, you know, being squeamish or not, but, but you are going to, and in particular, you know, in the city of Richmond, which is super busy with every kind

of call you could think of from the most extreme to the most mundane. So yeah, you have a, you know, to the point of, of, and I know we'll get into employee engagement in a different aspect, but the engagement of them in the core kind of work of that is great. And I would imagine you did end up on some pretty interesting calls, probably, right? Again, because the city of Richmond, you know, folks that are from there as well listening, but other folks, you know great example to get the training, get the ground level viewpoint of the folks that you are, you know, going to lead, you know, particularly someone that's a chief there, um, to do that, I think speaks a lot. So that's, that's fantastic. I never knew that. That's awesome. And did you, um, uh, ever have to use your EMT skills outside of work?

No, I have not. Thankfully. Right, yeah. That's right. Awesome. Yeah, so you were there for quite some time, developed that Leadership Academy. I know when I came on to it, I came on kind of to the end of one and then started another one to kind of catch up the full experience. And that was great going around to different sites and talking about it. And similar to what I had done with the incident management team that I was on and a staff ride. So you go somewhere and learn leadership traits from, you know, historical battles or leaders or something. And similarly, you know, with the book club and sharing ideas. And I always, you know, it's always interesting to see how I would

imagine, you know, both one is someone that was in the academy and then facilitating other kind of incident management trainings that I've done, seeing how people group up, who does what in the teams, you know, who takes on kind of a leader role naturally, even among leaders, because essentially, you know, everybody's a leader at some level in that academy, right? So I would imagine the dynamic of kind of who took on what pieces of that was an interesting thing to see as you helped get folks through that. Right. And that actually reminds me that I think the most important thing people got out of that training, or at least the feedback I got on it, was not necessarily the things we learned, but the fact that they were learning those things with their peers, who often

they did not get to interact with very much. So we had supervisors from the billing department sitting next to, you know, the supervisors of the paramedics. So they were interacting. They were, that's why I like to do some of those outside group projects and randomly choose, you know, well, I think for the book club, there were five different books and they were laid out in multiples of those different ones and laid out on the table just in random fashion at one of the meetings. And so the group's filing in to to get ready for training and there's a book on every seat. And I said, just sit wherever you want so wherever they sat right was the book that they got and then they at the end had to meet up with the others who had who had gotten that book also so it was randomly picked and they then had to work outside of that

group to to meet on their own to figure it out on their own to make their report to do a presentation so all those things are learning you know you learning to work with teammates. You're learning to work with these co-workers who might work in a different department than you, and you never really interact. And then to present in front of the whole group, again, was probably very uncomfortable for many of them. But the more often we did that, the more they got comfortable. So I think that the bonding experience, the team building and some of the public speaking and all the different things were part, you know, just as important as the things we were learning every month. Yeah, absolutely. That that aspect. And again, the kind of parallel of teaching incident management and that leadership academy of, you know, folks that are in the most dangerous situations right on the street each day or that you know most horrible all that when it comes to standing up in front of like 20 something other people are terrified but they get to go on the street on a call and it's like i guess it's i guess it's what you know

and what you're comfortable with what you're familiar with um is an aspect did you was it interesting to see who chose what books and were there any kind of surprises or did you, by knowing kind of the type of books, know kind of, you know, the type of person that may have gravitated to each or were there some surprises in there as people chose their book styles? Yeah, when I got the idea to do this, I went over to Barnes and Noble. I stood in front of the business books and I thought, you know, most of these people probably don't read leadership books at all. So I wanted something that would be interesting. So interesting stories. I think we had the story of Virgin Airlines. We had a book about the Nike company. So I tried to make it, choose ones that were interesting, not just all theory. So then because when the group came in,

they didn't know why that there were books there. Some of them gravitated to a book that looked interesting and others were kind of distracted by talking to their friends and just next to their friends. So they got stuck with a book of where they sat. But I think it all ended up well. And when they did the presentations, then everybody got to learn what each of the books were about. And then we kept copies extra. Everybody got to keep their book. And then we kept extra copies in the leadership library that we started. And they were all welcome to come if something piqued their interest and they wanted to read one of the other books. Yeah, it was a really good experience. And thank you so much for putting that together and to the leaders there for the opportunity for me to go to it. And for putting that together, how can other folks, the value of different departments, operational, administrative, logistics, all the different aspects of an organization, in particular public safety and AMS in this case, being able to see each other's world I I think makes them a more well-rounded person, employee, teammate, probably kind of a mix of all those, which is outstanding.

How can other folks, you know, use some of that kind of, or rather, you know, have the same idea or help them get started if they don't have a leadership development program for their organization? You know, whether it's public safety or not, but in this case, you know, public safety, what are some ideas that folks could take away to help them get started? Yeah, and it's easy to do. I mean, we started out with no budget for it. I spoke to the CEO who was open to it. And I think the important thing was that the CEO attended. Gotcha. The top leaders have to be on board.

And if they attend, that's the whole world because nobody was going to miss when their CEO was sitting there. Right. And learning with them. And then when the first year was over, the CEO actually got assigned a mentor, a mentee. Oh, wow.

So he participated in everything. So I give him a lot of credit for that. But anybody can start it. And in fact, as the years went on and other EMS agencies heard about it, they would call. And I shared everything we had with them because I think it's such a worthwhile thing to do and doesn't cost much money. I think the first year I spent $300 on it. Wow. It's because everybody got a three ring binder and then as each um each of

the 12 meetings we had 12 sections in the binder and then um whatever handouts were given out for that presentation um were in you know they could put it in their binder so I think that was the cost and then we had some food when we did the graduation ceremony. Another thing I didn't mention was we did a big project that they got assigned randomly into groups near the beginning of the year. And they were to look around at the agency and come up with an idea with their group that would improve the agency in some way and then research that and present it to the top leadership and the board of directors as a complete business plan. So that was, and then I helped them through the year with that and they had milestones and we were working behind the scenes to make that successful. But actually a couple of those projects went on to be implemented so I think that was

something they felt they felt good about but anyway so the first year was $300 and then the next year we got a little fancy and I think we did we rented a trolley or a bus or something to take us around that for that city tour so that cost a more. And one of the later years, we started giving out blue fleece jackets with a emblem that said Leadership Academy in the year, so that people could wear those proudly. So we got a little fancier as time went on, but you really don't need to because the knowledge was right there. What we needed to share during that first year was within our organization. So you mentioned Rob Lawrence.

He would come the month that we talked about operations and he gave his presentation. And it was eye opening to the administrative folks and probably a good big picture to the operational folks. Right. Same when it was time for finance to come in and present, how do you look at a budget? Here's our budget. How do you read it? How do you know about variances? So all the areas came and presented and shared. So that didn't cost anything to bring all of them in and share all that information. So it's really something you can do very grassroots. As long as you have your top leadership on board, it can be

successful. Yeah, that buy-in and kind of knowing the leader's intent and support to bring folks up is huge. And I like that, you know, what you know and others listening, when you go from a really tactical ground level, whether it's ground level spreadsheet work or putting bandages on things or fixing tires or whatever, to, oh, here's the whole organization. Here's why we can or can't spend this money or here's why these schedules happen and all those kind of things. It really is eye-opening. And I know when I was there, I had similar conversations from folks that were on the street all the time

and just had this one idea but didn't have that picture. And it really changes the conversation, let alone enabling their knowledge and their expansion so that when they do start moving up, that helps them. Because as you know, the more you move up, the more strategic view you have to have to be effective, the more administrative skills you have to have to be effective, the more project skills. And it sounds like particularly the project piece, you know, in milestones and helping folks through that, where it's a longer look at a schedule versus what am I doing this shift answering these calls seem like it really helped folks get that bigger picture and look at how do I schedule something like this out. Right. And, you know, besides just the leadership group, we started doing kind of a cross trading. Well, we called it a ride along. So our administrative folks, when they were hired on, we offered them the chance for a ride along on a shift out in the street.

And, you know, if they were comfortable with that, they usually loved it. Those that might feel too squeamish, they went along in the supervisor vehicle for a couple. And then we said, well, the operations folks, EMTs and paramedics, because they're doing the documentation that's so important for billing, they need to see how their documentation moves through the billing cycle. So then we started in the billing department a ride-along. We called it a ride-along. So we started bringing in the EMTs and paramedics one by one, however we could do it. It's hard to fit it with shifts and everything, and it does cost, end up maybe with some overtime. But I think we found it was worthwhile because they would come and sit and they'd follow a patient care report all the way through.

And so they saw how it was the documentation was entered, if that documentation matched, you know, what was needed to be able to create that into a bill, where the bill went, collections, they saw the whole process. So I think that's helpful to get both sides to understand each other. I don't know, this is just my observation of EMS, but maybe because it was volunteer for so long that when paid services came into being and you all of a sudden have a billing department and, you know, HR and finance and everything, there almost felt like a separation. Right. That the two shall not meet, you know, and they don't really cross paths that often.

And, you know, it's not like they're all in the break room together. So, and even at RIA, we had separate break rooms. Operations had their kind of their own building. Building,

yeah. Yeah. So I think it's something you start crisscrossing that and you start cross training each, you know, all of them. Not only will they do their jobs better, not only will they connect and bond with each other more,

but you've got a consolidated agency rather than everybody in their own silos. Absolutely. And I think the PCR following that trail is an, is an outstanding effort, you know, because when folks are tired, they have to stay after they just had a long call or at the end of their shift, they have to, you know, do a complete report for the right reason on its own, you know, good documentation, it's the patients, but also knowing if you don't fill these fields out, it doesn't equal this billing that doesn't get you a new computer that you're trying to do the note on that doesn't go in the new ambulance with, you know, the whole cycle of there and the organization and keeping that going. And,

um, I know, you know, EMS in particular has, you know, goes to Capitol Hill each year and they lobby for funds and things like that. And so how all of that's connected even up to that level, but in particular, your agency, I think is an awesome picture to give, you know, the brand new EMT through, you know, the field captain that's been there a while that may or may not have that picture because, you know, it's so connected. But at the time, sometimes when you're on a call and you're tired, you don't feel like it. And, you know, it's easy to skip the box or put, you know, something. It's a great picture and looking at that. And again, in particular, as you're advancing and you're becoming a leader and if

you're moving up in your organization or to another one, you have to start looking at that picture beyond that kind of day-to-day call thing. So that's an awesome thing. So it sounds like for folks listening, if you don't have a leadership academy, look in-house, right? I guess for where your knowledge is, what knowledge can you share? What briefings? Because I know the operations briefing you mentioned that Rob did, we did that for new orientation folks. So there's probably resources within the existing agency that you can leverage. It's a matter of how do we pull this together and provide value to our up and coming leaders across the whole area, not just the folks, you know, going real fast down the road, but everyone in your organization. And it

sounds like you really built that up and helped a lot of folks doing that. So kudos to you. It's an awesome program. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. It was a lot of fun. So I think it was important. That's cool. Yeah. And now, so you did that great work in addition to all the other work at Richard Meeblitz. And then you are now an entrepreneur with engaging leadership. So you took developing folks there to a new level, took that step. And what was that step like, you know, from, you know, kind of typical-ish, I guess, public safety job, right, but an executive level, to now you're going to go out on your own.

How was that step? Yeah, but an executive level to now you're going to go out on your own. Um, how was that? How was that step? Yeah, that was scary. Yeah. Um, but you know, I just, I guess I, I keep going back to, I found my passion. Um, so I, you know, with an accounting background, a finance background, um, but I'd come into work and this Leadership Academy just was the first thing I wanted to work on. And so I just couldn't get out of my head that this is really something. And, you know, once it was in place and running for nine years at the Richmond Ambulance Authority, and I was still having trouble bringing in outside sources when I did want them to talk about leadership or bring in somebody else. So I just kept thinking, are there other organizations that could benefit

from things like a leadership academy and from leadership training and others that aren't big enough for a training department that might want to bring somebody in? So from that idea, I just decided I was going to make the break. So it was very scary. You leave a very nice job with good benefits and boom, you're out on your own. And entrepreneurial world is a whole, a whole new world. Different thing, right? Yeah, it is. So my advice I give to everybody, even if you don't think you will ever have your own business or that you will ever leave your current job, you should network. Build a network outside of your organization, within your industry, outside of your industry.

Go to networking events, meet people, because not only maybe someday you will need to leave that job or maybe someday you will want to start your own business, but if not, you still, the things you'll learn and the connections you have with other people are resources for you to do your current job better. That's a great point. Ideas for projects and things, you know, help. So that's the number one advice that I would give. But number two, entrepreneurial world has its, you know, like anything, pros and cons. But I do really enjoy. And of course, what I've ended up doing since with developing a program and and writing a book and teaching.

And now with covid expanding onto the online world, which is expanded not only nationwide, but worldwide with projects and trainings and things. So it's something I never could have dreamed of at the time. So, um, something I've enjoyed very much though. Did you know anyone else that had done, made a similar kind of jump and become an entrepreneur, um, or I guess within your network that you had before you kind of took the leap? No, no? Wow. But I think back and I think, I don't know if some people are cut out to being entrepreneurs and others aren't.

I'm not sure that's necessarily true. But when I look back and actually of the four, I'm the third of four kids in our family and three of us are entrepreneurs. In fact, my two older brothers, I don't know that they ever even worked for anybody else. I think they started business right out of college. So I think maybe if you've been exposed to it in that way, it's easier to make the leap. I just saw that it was a possibility and I saw the value. So I think what's ended up happening is if I did indeed bring some positive impact to Richmond Ambulance Authority, which would be great to think that I did, now in this entrepreneurial world, I can bring that impact to a wider range.

So I feel like my impact is bigger. I maybe did as much as I could do within one organization and then made the leap to to help more organizations. Yeah, that's I mean, it's a that's a pretty good driver, especially if, you know, your focus is to help other folks and particularly up and coming leaders. And were there any kind of processes or references that you used or that you could recommend to other folks that are kind of having the same thoughts as far as leaving or, or, but yeah, kind of, yeah. Taking that leap, becoming an entrepreneur saying, Hey, I'm going to kind of start my own thing. Are there some, you know, kind of, well, yeah, like references that you looked at? Um, I didn't at the time, but now that, uh, since then, so what I did was I immediately started networking, um, because it is lonely to have a business just yourself.

Right. You might interact with clients and et cetera, but I really missed that day-to-day interaction with coworkers. Right. So what I did instead was I jumped into the networking world and I started forming groups. I didn't see networking groups that were exactly what I was looking for. So I just started them myself. So I started a group called Entrepreneurial Women RVA. And we had a couple hundred women in, I've ended up turning that group over to somebody else now, because I'm too busy. But that was, and through that, I ended up that there were a lot of women in this area who had started their own business, having some of the same, you know, struggles.

You know, there's marketing, there's accounting, there's all the things you have to do yourself now. And so because I did have a business background, I started forming classes for them. So somebody would ask me about, well, how do you keep your books? So I put together a QuickBook class and a bunch of entrepreneurs came. And then, well, how do you keep your books? So I put together a QuickBook class and a bunch of entrepreneurs came. And then, well, what about branding and marketing? I put together a class for that. So I ended up teaching. So not only did I leave to teach leaders in organizations, but I ended up teaching some of my peers in the entrepreneurial world things. so i i enjoyed that very much and i love to create classes write curriculum teach um so i found that that was very enjoyable i also went and got certified

as an executive coach um and i got certified as a master facilitator so i can facilitate groups and retreats and um you know all kinds of things so those are just tools in my toolbox. I still concentrate. I want. So if I'm given a leader, I want to be able to bring in all the tools I can to help that leader on their road. So I especially love helping newly promoted leaders make the transition from a technical role to a leadership role. And those are very different skills. So somebody, you know, just like the paramedic who got promoted, or say somebody in customer service now is the supervisor of the customer service area, or an engineer, or somebody in IT. There's so many technical roles, you know, everybody has a technical role if they're just doing the hands-on job. But if they do that job really well, there's a good chance they could be promoted to supervise that job. And then that's a whole different thing. So that's where really my heart is in trying to help people make that transition very effectively.

So the tagline, my business is engaging leadership. And my tagline is I help organizations create high performing leadership teams. So in whatever way it takes training, coaching, mentoring, whatever way it would, you know, it would have to happen. I'm there to help kind of one-on-one or groups of leaders or kind of like a leadership academy that we talked about. So that's pretty much what I do. And I love every minute of it. It's nice to that your tagline isn't just high performing leaders, it's leadership teams, you know, which, which to me seems like, you know, the team can have a good leader, but it takes a whole team. And the fact that you focus on it. I imagine you do individual work, but also

group work so that you have a group that's, that's, you know, consists of leaders. So do you, do you help individual folks that, that lead teams and then also kind of groups of teams, like, like with the leadership academy there. So you have, you provide both the individual and the group. Right. Yeah stuff kind of customized so um it's been all different things it hasn't just been one thing so some i'll get a call sometimes and um somebody just wants um and i've this has been uh several startups and not in this area this is where i'm it's like nationwide now uh with being online but um a startup CEO or founder wants an executive coach. And so it can be that. It can be an organization that wants their whole leadership team

and emerging leaders to go through a whole program to learn all the elements of leading and supervising. So I can do the whole program. Or there's groups that just want me to come in for a lunch and learn or a staff meeting to present one topic that they're struggling with. So it's been all different ones. I even was contracted with the VCU Center for Corporate Education to create a mini MBA program, which I did in 2020 and taught it. Started out in person, ended up online. So just helping leaders management, we called it mastering management. And it basically was learning about finance for non-finance people, budgets, accounting, how does this all fit together? It was learning about leadership of people and it was learning about kind of a leadership of their own career. What's emotional

intelligence? You know, how does that apply to your job? You know, the networking I was talking to you about, right, personal branding, which is your own reputation. And you need to be really intentional about that. So there's so many elements to bring in. And I'm just always open to whatever anybody needs to bring that to them. How, you know, thinking of you mentioned the facilitator and executive coach, are they considered qualifications, certifications, kind of trainings? How do you categorize those? Yeah, those are their certifications. OK, there are people can just call themselves, I guess, both of those things. kind of trainings how do you categorize those yeah those are um they're certifications okay

um there are people can just call themselves i guess both of those things i wanted to go and really learn and be certified right um so i got certified uh with the company out of florida which wasn't hard to go down there and and take those courses is that like uh you know and what made me think of that as kind of other you other courses you've taken or I've taken just thinking of, I wonder what that course is like. Is it a mix of, you know, kind of academic and practical stuff or what is that like, particularly the executive coach piece? That sounds very interesting. And in particular, the actual training for it. What was that process like? So it was in-person training before COVID. So I imagine

they're maybe doing it online now, but it was in-person training, very intensive, four days, and we had to coach for 32 hours to be certified. Wow. So you, you know, it was at the crack of dawn until evening because you had to get eight hours each day of actual coaching and besides learning how to coach and all the different elements so we would coach each other in the class for issues that we may be facing at work or issues we've heard of people facing and so it was a lot of hands-on practice and so it's you know and it's tough because coaching is not consulting so coaching is leading the person to aha moments or insights because they really know the answer themselves and it's a mindset issue that they're just sort of locked on it so a coach

is not giving them advice or giving them answers a coach is leading them through a series of questions so that they can all of a sudden see what the answer is. So somebody trained as a coach could coach anybody in any industry because they don't, the coach doesn't need to know the particulars of that industry. They just need to help this person through the process. That's a great, I've never, one, I didn't know it and don't know it like you do, but that coaching is not consulting is a great, great line too. And great thought, I guess, the thought pattern more so of, you know, you're showing someone how to get to where they need to, or not showing them, I guess, to your point, you're leading in their verse, just telling them, here's what you need

to do as a consultant, you know, here's the answers, those kinds of things. So that it sounds harder, honestly. It is very hard. Yes, it is. It takes some patience because sometimes you think you know the answer and you'd love to just jump in there and tell them. But as we learned in our in our coaching program, the the our the instructor, the person who was teaching it, who has been a coach for many, many years. He said every time that somebody gets stuck, one of his coaching clients gets stuck, and they finally say, what would you do in this instance? And he said, I was just busting at the gut to tell them. And he said, as soon as I tell them, they say, oh, no, I don't want to do that. So you don't know the answer because you're not in there and you're not that person.

And this is actually one of the classes I teach. I teach leaders how to coach their staff. So, and this is actually one of the classes I teach. I teach leaders to how to coach their staff. Oh, cool. It's a tricky one. It's people just don't get it. They just want to, they want to be able to give the answers to their staff. And I said, if you do that every time, they're just going to depend on you for those answers. You need to ask them so that, you know, your staff comes to you with a problem and you talk about it and they tell you what it is. You need to start asking them what what have you already done? What steps have you already taken to solve this? What what have you ever heard of a problem like this before?

Somebody else, you know, who might have had it. What did they do? Has something similar ever happened that you could take some steps um to so you're trying to get them to you know who have you already talked to about this so lots of questions like that me it's probably so much easier if the supervisor knows the answer just to tell them the answer all right but it's like um you know teaching somebody to fish or giving a fish fish. You want to have them have an analytical mind and start to know that the next time they could think through these questions that you had asked them. Plus they won't be so fast. If they know they're going to come to your office

and you're going to ask them a bunch of questions and send them right back out to find the answer, then they're going to try to find it themselves. So it's not easy, but it's a very worthwhile thing to do because you're helping your staff grow in that way. That's excellent. Even internally, you're having folks be coaches, not consultants. I had the same exact proverb going through my head, which is such a great one. I even think about it for my kids. Can you open this juice box?

Can you do this? They're big enough to say, well, I could, but I'm going to show you how to do it first. Then you just do it. So, you know, for, um, teaching, you know, leaders, executives, whatever level to then help their other folks is, uh, you know, just an invaluable thing that, that I imagine helps make their whole team, that team of leaders more efficient because you're making more critical thinking members of the leadership team. Right. Exactly. Yep. Yep. It's part, well, it's the whole thing that my book is about that that's going to make your, your team more engaged because it's one of the elements of bringing them along with, with employee engagement.

And, you know, it's a perfect segue. So, so, you know, engaging leadership is, is your business, the book, the engagement ring, Practical Leadership Skills for Engaging Your Employees. Let's talk about that. So you're providing this coaching. You're helping leaders help their leaders and all the stuff that you do. And how did you come to the thought and then the result of getting The Engagement Ring book out there and sharing all this knowledge that you have. When I started my own business, I wanted to have not just these one-off classes and the different things and being able to coach, but I felt like, how really does somebody know if they're

a good leader? I'm looking for data. Where would there be data on good leadership? I kept coming back to employee engagement surveys. So if you are a good leader, you have engaged followers. And engaged employees are more productive. They stay at your organization longer. They have less sick time. They have less injuries. So there's a lot of data of engaged employees. Organizations with high engagement actually,

on average, have 21% more profit. So lots of reasons to have engagement. And so because there is the employee engagement survey, that could be some data. So I pulled up, Gallup is the big one with employee engagement surveys, but lots of other companies do them. And you can just Google the questions of employee engagement surveys, and you get pretty much the same 15 to 20 questions. And it'll be things like, and this is questions to the employee and they're usually yes, no. So it'll be things like, do you have the resources to do your job effectively? Has someone in a leadership position given you feedback over the last 30 days? So it'll be things like that. And you want the yes.

So I'm looking at this list of questions thinking, if I had a newly promoted supervisor, and I always go back to EMS, so this newly promoted paramedic, what could I teach them or show them? What would they have to know or do to get a yes on those answers from their employees? Because that would be one data example and proof that they were a good leader. So I took the 15 to 20 questions and wrote out for each one, what would I have to train on? What would they have to know or do? And then I looked at that whole list and started putting them in buckets. Things were similar. And then I had the buckets and I ended up with 12 different workshops. And I'm looking at those because I love a good acronym. And I

thought, how could somebody remember this 12 different workshops? And so I came up with the engagement ring because these 12 different workshops fit into the letters R-I-N-G. So the R of the engagement ring stands for relationships. An effective supervisor will develop a one-on-one relationship with each of their employees. In fact, the data on employee engagement shows that 70% of an employee's engagement is due directly to their relationship with their supervisor. So if you only did that one thing, you could increase the score 70%. Besides the supervisor, the employee's relationship with their team members. Gallup even has a question that says, do you have a best friend at work?

And they found that the more friends that someone has at work, the higher their engagement. So that R of the ring is for the relationships. The I of the engagement ring is for being included. Employees need to feel a sense of belonging, an inclusion, a feeling part of a team, and also being in the loop on communications. Can I ask, sorry, a quick question for the R4 relationships. So particularly now, I'd be interested between the pre-COVID and now, have you seen a difference in feedback from the folks that you work with on that relationship piece and the friends and the workplace? Or has there been enough time to kind of get that data? You know, because now our relationships are through our monitors, you know, or our phones as opposed to,

hey, we're going to happy hour Friday or, you know, get dinner or lunch or whatever. Right. How have you seen that impact over the last year? Yeah, I don't have data, but anecdotally, I'm hearing from everybody that the supervisors and managers are struggling with this. And so I've even created a workshop, an online workshop just for that for managers and supervisors. But you really have got to be creative.

So you have to be meeting more often, meeting one on one, trying a team building things. There are some that you can do online in a Zoom meeting, sharing things, getting to know each other, because if everybody's at home, you have some opportunities to get to know them in a way that you wouldn't have before. So one of the team building things I'll suggest they do is start out at the beginning of the staff meeting and everybody shows the camera around their room or has one thing on their desk that's important to them and they tell the story why. There's lots of things you can do like that. You have to be really creative about it.

It's a tough one right now and that has made it more challenging, but it doesn't's a tough one right now. And that has made, made it more challenging, but it doesn't mean it can't be done. Yeah. That is a great idea of, of one to show that the camera around and then the, the fact that we are seeing each other's homes, whereas that may never have happened before. You know, you may meet after work somewhere at lunch or something, but still never, you know, beat each other's houses. And, um, you know, I know for me, I have a sign of the podcast logo. I have it a battle ax and other stuff like on the back of my wall. And so when I'm on calls, it generates, you know, conversation and same with others. And, you know, it's, it's, I think actually as physically disconnected as we

are, there isn't a more personal element to our virtual relationships now. Yeah. You know, when we're on calls, which is, which is interesting, but, but what I hope too, is that it is a catalyst for that someday when we get back to being near each other again, we, we don't break that cycle, you know, and, and we are talking to each other more and building those relationships more, not just for a relationship to get a task done, but to really, you know, that human connection and that, you know, whether you're the leader or the subordinate or whomever, you know, that's interesting, though.

So I'm interested to hear, you know, the challenges folks face and more about it with relationships for Reagan. And so I is included? Yeah, so I is included. Make sure your employees feel a sense of belonging and also included in communications and seeing, helping them to see the big picture of the projects they're working on in the organization. The N in the ring, in the ring is for being needed. This is, so do your employees know the mission of the organization and are they connected to it? If not, introduce it and get them connected. And then I asked the supervisors, do you even know the mission of your organization? And, you know, you have to get them connected to that mission. That's very important

part of being engaged. And then that second part of it is you have to help them understand how every task they do every day moves that mission forward. They need to feel they're a cog in that wheel that's making the wheel turn to be engaged. And then the G of the engagement ring is opportunities for personal and professional growth at work will help employees feel more engaged. something and part of this too, you know, engagement, recruitment and retention. I was able to, which was awesome. Another great benefit that I'm fortunate from Richard Ambulance to go to the ambulance service manager course. And, and I looked at the EMS trying to do a couple of episodes of this podcast about it and recruitment and retention is always on there for EMS in particular and, and, and some other public safety agencies as well. When you give someone the big picture, how have you found that it's helpful to help that person relate that they are part of the cog in the wheel?

Particularly, you know, they're tired, they've worked a lot, and it's hard to see it. How do you help that person find their value in addition to telling them, you know, directly? Or is that really, you know, one of the best ways is just making sure you're always letting folks know that. But how do we really give people that needed in the ring acronym there, that feeling? Right. Well, and I'm actually going to take a step back because I don't think people understand employee engagement really how dismal it is. Right now in the United States, only 33% of all employees are engaged at their job and worldwide only 14%. So US employees, only one third of them are engaged in their job. And the sad part was Parade Magazine did a study and they found out, they asked employees, if you could have your boss fired

this year or have a raise this year, which one would you take? And 33% said they'd rather have their boss fired this year than a raise. Oh, wow. And they've also found that 51% of all employees are either actively or passively looking for another job. So this is a real serious problem. And I think it's a hidden problem. It's like under the surface because people aren't really realizing the extent of it. So that, you know, one third. So one out of every three employees wants their boss fired. So, you know, you need to look at those bosses need to look at 70 percent of that person's engagement is in my hands. And I use an example in the book that if you took 10 random employees from any organizations in the United States, and you put them in a rowboat, and they're supposed to be rowing and accomplishing the mission. Statistics show that the three employees out of the 10

up front, they'd be up front, and they'd be rowing enthusiastically towards the mission. Those are the ones who are engaged. 50% or the five in the middle are unengaged. They wouldn't be rowing. They're not engaged. They're not disengaged. They're just there. They're accomplishing their tasks. They're probably getting a satisfactory on their performance evaluations every year,

but they are not rowing toward that mission. And then two in the back, or 20%, are actively disengaged. That's the current percentages. 20% of all employees at an average organization are actively disengaged, and they are undermining the rest of the organization. So basically, in the rowboat, they'd be rowing against the tide. They'd be rowing the opposite direction. So does their position correlate with their kind of review position, if you were their performance review positions? As far as the level.

Right. So higher the employee is, the more they're engaged because they're more in the know. They're more connected to the mission. So the farther somebody is from that big picture, that's why I always say share the big picture. Right. If they're just doing their thing, they're just the cog in the wheel every day doing it over and over again. Unless you're introducing that big picture to them and reminding them of the mission and getting them inspired and keep reminding them everything they're doing, how it's moving forward, they're going to forget that and they're going to slip backwards. And it's easy to

be unengaged, you know, with that. So with this rowboat, the two in the back that are actively disengaged, they need to be sent to HR, get HR and help them maybe find a new robot, whatever it is. But you've got to stop them right away from causing any more damage. Right. The three in the front are great. They are engaged. They're going. Just keep cheering them on.

But the five in the middle is what my book is written for. So 50% of all employees are disengaged or unengaged, and they are not connected to the mission. So I use a definition of engagement as being an employee who goes above and beyond on their job. They're really committed to and excited about the mission. So they do more than is required. So yeah, these five in the middle are doing exactly probably what their position description requires. They're getting that satisfactory. But if you could turn them is required. So yeah, these five in the middle are doing exactly probably what their position description requires. They're getting that satisfactory. But if you could turn them into rowers, if you can turn them into engaged, there's more profit, there's more retention,

so many productivity, so many things that can be good. So this goes for not just organizations, but it goes for volunteer agencies. It goes for homeowners associations. It goes for trade associations. Anywhere there is a group of people that are led by one or more, these techniques could be used for. So, and I demonstrate that kind of all through the book, but, and so my avatar in the book, the example I use is this EMS supervisor. And so every chapter I demonstrate how this could be applied because it's easy to say an office worker and their supervisor and here's how you can do X, Y, and Z. Right. challenge is somebody like an, you know, an EMS, the hours they work, the way it's structured with the ambulances that are not coming back to a common, at least at Richmond Ambulance Authority,

once they left for their shift, they were 12 hours out. On post, right? Post. And so, you know, our supervisors there did not supervise the same group every shift. And so there was a there's a lot of challenges with that. So I figured if these principles could be demonstrated to work in an EMS agency, they could work anywhere. So sometimes, you know, if you're a supervisor with this type of thing going on, you have to be a little more creative. But it's going to end up being worthwhile. So the the end result is I heard this, I wish I had written this because, uh, but I can't take credit for it. Every employee wants to be a valued member of a winning team on an inspiring mission. Oh, wow. And I think that

pretty much sums up everything in my book because the, you know, all the different things. So I, I teach and the book is my workshops. I developed the workshops and then I thought this could be a book. So, you know, I, I, um, have a workshop and also a chapter in the book on helping supervisors and managers know how to connect to their employees one-on-one. I recommend a weekly 30 minute meeting that's on your calendar that shows that they are important and that they get to start out and talk about the things in the beginning of the meeting they want to talk about. And then you talk about their projects and maybe their career growth some

weeks and whatever it is. But the number one thing is they're important. Every one of your employees is important enough to be on your calendar. And when I teach this, I get supervisors who say, oh my gosh, I couldn't have every employee every week for 30 minutes. But if you multiply it, that's only 1.25% of your week for each of your employees. And also, if they know they have a set time to come in every week, they'll hold on to challenges or problems they might have just come to your door with. So as it goes that they know they're going to have their meeting, they'll hold on to things and just wait to the meeting, talk to you about it. So you may be saving time in other ways. So some of the other things I have a session and a chapter on team building, how to give feedback, why you give it, what kind of script you use,

you say certain words, how often you give negative and positive. I have a workshop and chapter on how to delegate. That's very important because that's how you're growing your employees. Coaching skills that I mentioned before. I have one on having difficult conversations in the workplace. And I would say this is my number one workshop that I'm asked to give when it's just a one-off. The conversations one? Yeah, having difficult conversations in the workplace, those uncomfortable conversations, how to handle anger in the workplace, yours and your employees. So there's a lot of elements to that. And then how to connect your employees to that mission measurement and accountability the employees should you should work out a system with them that they know at the end of a shift if they've had a good day if they've achieved their goals

um i know in ems you know there's lots of data and there's how many cardiac arrest saves and all those different things and that's very helpful those type of things so every job should find a way to have that sort of thing. And then keeping staff in the loop, how you communicate. And then I'm big on onboarding and not only letting your HR department onboard totally when somebody comes, but you need to onboard within your own department

when they come in. When you have a new employee come in, you should have your own onboarding program for them to get them up to speed, to make them feel welcome, to start the engagement ring with them. And then stay interviews. You have an employee, you should have a mid-year interview or meeting with each employee and find out why they're staying. Don't just wait till an exit interview, but find out why employees are staying. But then I also caution, if you are not going to make any changes or be open to the honest feedback

on those stay interviews, then don't have them. But if you're willing to have them, find out why they're staying, what would make them leave, what more can be done, what do they want in their career? It's a great mid-year thing.

And then finally, boomerang employees. Too often when employees leave an organization, that's it. It's cut off ties, never hear from them again, no interaction. But organizations are really missing out on keeping an alumni group, on keeping a group that still cares about that mission, that keeping in touch with them. They may send employees to you. They may send, you know, if you're a for-profit organization, you want more clients. He doesn't want more patients, but they send clients to you. They may come back and work for you again with increased skill set that you didn't have to pay for. So there's a lot of

elements to employee engagement. And, you know, so I've just made this sort of a step-by-step i call it a fake it till you make it um kind of way to learn leadership and how to manage employees they um it's interesting the the boomerang you mentioned because uh where i am now i was there years ago and i did exactly that you know had a certain skill set getting started kind of doing some project process stuff then went out to public safety emergency management incident, got a lot more of that, and then circled back now or was senior project manager there. So it is neat and kept in touch with some of the key folks that networking we talked about earlier and said, hey, I see this kind of project management is starting to build

up in here. And that was a key to get me in the door and have those conversations and come back and knowing it was a key to, you know, get me in the door and, and have those conversations and come back and knowing it was a good organization. I had a question too, for, for the, the needed piece and the staying engaged. Have you found any correlation between, and this is, you know, goes back to a concept that it's not just incident management and other, you know, that span of control of, you know, do you have more than five to seven people reporting to you? Do you find any correlation between folks that are more or less engaged, depending on how many layers they have between them and the leader of their organization? No, I think it's, well, so there's a couple of different things. One is I'm working on my second

book, and that is about organizational culture. And because my heart is with these new supervisors and this middle management layer, I'm always trying to find a way that, and that's what I wanted to find in the employee engagement. How could they themselves, without any support from the top, engage their employees? And so I wanted to bring all these things in that don't cost any money that somebody can start to do tomorrow. That's really where my heart is. Now that I'm working on organizational culture, I'm finding that if the CEO and the top leadership are not standing behind the culture, it's very hard for an individual departmental manager to change a culture. So they can affect the climate of their department. They can affect the personality of the work that's being done. But that's very difficult.

So employee engagement, though, can be handled within each area because it is a one-on-one supervisor to employee. So all the way up, I do say that naturally, the higher the leadership, the more they're engaged. And it's because of some of these other things, because they have maybe more empowerment, more control over their work environment. They see the big picture. They're in on communications, but everybody is an employee. And so even top management, top leadership that report to a CEO, they still want feedback. They want stretch assignments, delegation. They want to be connected to the mission. They want to feel part of the team. They want to be that valued

member of the winning team on an inspiring mission, no matter what level they're at. So all of these can be applied to every single level and really need to be because if the manager is not engaged, they're not going to be motivated to engage their team. That's a great, great thought as we were kind of going on an hour here that the takeaways and I got these from your book and I know we didn't talk about that yet. Folks can find your book on Amazon and wherever books are sold. Where can they find the engagement ring? Yes, it's on Amazon. And it's called the engagement ring, practical leadership skills for engaging your employees and spelling. And my name is L E E space A N N space P-N space P-O-N-D. It's kind of fun to type your name into Amazon and something actually comes up.

So I enjoy doing that. I do that too often probably. But it's also been recorded on Audible by a great local voiceover artist here in Richmond, Virginia, Rosie O'Toole. And she really brought it to life. And I actually have, to offer any of your listeners, Audible has given me some free Audible codes. So if you do have Audible or want to get Audible, I would be happy to share the free codes. You can get the book for free on Audible. So anyone who's interested in that can connect with me or reach out to me on

LinkedIn. And in LinkedIn, I'm le-E-E-A-N-N-P-O-N-D. I would highly recommend folks that are listening to reach out to Leanne and get more information from this book. And, you know, the employee engagement to hear that, you know, 70 percent, if you're just engaging those relationships, you know, you can, it seems, save yourself. You know, we talked about the disengage. We have to get HR. But if you put the effort in up front and you engage those folks, particularly those middle folks, those middle managers and leaders, you know, one, they'll start to go above and beyond that relationship, individual relationship between the supervisor and the subordinate they have is just critical. I know I've seen the benefit from it. I'm sure folks listening have. Um, and I think it's awesome that you are, you know, making a difference in, in doing that for everybody. How can folks reach you, um, for

engaging leadership to help, you know, if they need a coach or mentor or, you know, the other service you provide in addition to the information that we can get from the Engagement Ringbook? Yeah, and my website is engaging-leadership.com. So all the information is on the website or again, they're welcome. Anybody, I love to connect on LinkedIn. That's where I hang out. I'm not on other social media. So if anybody wants to directly connect with me on LinkedIn, happy to talk to them about

any of that or the website engaging-leadership.com. That's awesome. Leanne, thank you again so much for your time, for reconnecting. Look forward to reading more of your posts. We're connected on LinkedIn there and some leadership. Excuse me. But I thank you so much for your time. And again, it's great to reconnect and learn all this great information. And for folks that are listening, please do reach out to Leanne, those audible codes and just, you know, to learn

more from a good person who's helping folks out there. So thank you so much. Oh, thanks so much, Kevin, for having me.