The Peter Attia Drive - #318 ‒ Cycling phenom and Tour de France champion Tadej Pogačar reveals his training strategies, on-bike nutrition, and future aspirations

Episode Date: September 23, 2024

View the Show Notes Page for This Episode Become a Member to Receive Exclusive Content Sign Up to Receive Peter’s Weekly Newsletter Tadej Pogačar is a three-time Tour de France champion and one of the most dominant cyclists of his generation. In this episode, he shares insights into his 2020 Tour de France victory, his historic 2024 season winning both the Giro d’Italia and Tour de France, and the struggles he faced in 2022 and 2023. He also dives into his training regimen, nutrition, and the key metrics he tracks, like power, VAM, and heart rate variability. Tadej offers a glimpse into his goals for the future and what it takes to stay at the top of the sport. We discuss: 2020 Tour de France win [4:30]; Learning from previous mistakes [8:45]; Training: simulating steep climbs and other challenging race conditions [10:30]; Tadej’s historic 2024 season and what contributed to his success [12:30]; Nutrition for optimal performance: offseason diet and carbohydrate intake during intense training sessions [15:30]; Training metrics: heart rate, power output, VAM, and HRV, and his approach to zone 2 training [18:15]; Epic climbs in the Tour de France, mindset after challenging stages, and rebuilding confidence after the 2023 Tour [25:45]; Racing dynamics, media criticism, and Tadej’s reflections on racing records [32:15]; Training in the off-season [39:00]; and More. Connect With Peter on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook and YouTube

Hey everyone, welcome to the Drive Podcast. I'm your host, Peter Attia. This podcast, my website, and my weekly newsletter all focus on the goal of translating the science of longevity into something accessible for everyone. Our goal is to provide the best content in health and wellness, and we've established a great team of analysts to make this happen. It is extremely important to me to provide all of this content without relying on paid ads. To do this, our work is made entirely possible by our members, and in return, we offer exclusive member-only content and benefits above and beyond what is available for free.

If you want to take your knowledge of this space to the next level, it's our goal to ensure members get back much more than the price of the subscription. If you want to learn more about the benefits of our premium membership, head over to peteratiamd.com forward slash subscribe. My guest this week is Taddei Pogacar, a professional cyclist and three time winner of the Tour de France in 2020, 2021, and most recently 2024. For those who may not know his story, Taddei, who today is just 26 years old, has already been compared to the most legendary all-around cyclist of all time, Eddie Merckx. He's generally referred to now as the second coming of Merckx, whose nickname was the Cannibal for the manner in which he devoured the competition. Today was a very successful junior rider winning some of the most prominent races

prior to his breakthrough year in 2019 when he signed on with the UAE team. He won the tour of California that year and won three stages of the Vuelta a España, one of the three grand tours en route to a overall third place finish as well as the young rider title. And then of course in 2020, he was the unexpected winner of the Tour de France. This is something we will discuss in detail in this podcast. Now since that time, Taddej has basically rewritten the record books. He's done things that people generally have thought,

frankly, impossible in the modern era of cycling, largely because of the specialization of the sport today. Typically, cyclists will focus on one type of race, and yet, Tadej has demonstrated an appetite to basically conquer everything he does. That means he's competing not just in grand tours and shorter stage races, but also some of the most grueling one day races of all time. In fact, there are five such races.

He has already won three of them. And of course we discuss his aspirations around the others. 2024 was kind of a momentous year. He first won the Giro d'Italia and the Tour de France, a double feat that has not been accomplished for nearly 30 years. And he set a record winning 12 stages across both of these. He is currently the number one ranked cyclist in the world, a record that he's held for about 170 weeks and counting. And he is going to attempt in a week to do something that again, many people thought would never be possible in the modern era of cycling, which is to

complete something known as the triple crown, which is winning the Giro, the tour, which he's already done, and then managing to win the world championship road race. I have wanted to interview today for some time. And of course the opportunity of him racing at the GP Montreal, just two weeks out from the world championship was remarkable and fortuitous. So I was very grateful to have his time in this conversation. We talk about his remarkable 2020 season where

he took the world by storm and won the Tour de France in one of the most dramatic finishes that race has ever seen. We talk about the highs and lows of his career since that time. We talk about how he trains, how nutrition has evolved on the bike and why that allows cyclists today to do things that were previously thought impossible. This is a bit of an interesting podcast if you are not a cyclist, because some of the things that he talks about are simply difficult to wrap your mind around.

But hopefully my reaction to those things, for example, his power numbers, will give you a sense of the fact that I'm really talking to one of the most fit human beings on the planet at this moment. So without further delay, I hope you enjoy my conversation with Tadej Pogacar. Tadej, thank you so much for making time. Obviously you just raced yesterday, you've got to race tomorrow and we're two weeks out

from the world championships. So to give us any time is amazing. Thank you. No, thanks for having me. A lot of people listening will know everything about you as I do, or they're super fans, but there's also probably a number of people listening who might not appreciate the magnitude of what you've accomplished in a very short period of time. I learned about you in 2019 as the most promising young cyclist that was coming up, but I don't think many people,

probably myself included, expected what happened in 2020 at the Tour de France. What were your expectations going into the Tour that year? I was not expecting at all to win in 2020. It was COVID year. We had pretty good trainings, not too many races, so not too much to prove. No, in 2019 was breakthrough year for me, but then 2020 came and it was like a long period doing nothing, just training. We went to the tour with Fabio Aro and me as two leaders. Yeah, it turns out in the end I was fighting for podium place, for second place in the last week.

I was really happy with that and the final time trial came and it all turned the table around and yeah, turned the table around. And yeah, I won the tour. It was unbelievable. I think still a lot of people don't believe it happened. So yeah. Well, obviously people at the time of that final time trial said, we haven't seen a race like this since LeMond and Laurent Fignon in, I think it was 89

when he had that come behind, but what stage in 2020 did you realize I'm going to be on the podium? On the stage called El Losa, I think I was sure I'm gonna be second because this was the Queen stage and I come behind Roglic just 15 seconds. Lopez win that stage on High Mountain. So yeah, that was the day I knew that this is it, no?

But I also think Roglic thought that day that he's gonna win. So yeah, you never know Yeah, so going into that last time trial What was your team telling you in the radio at the time checks or even before the time checks in terms of your delta? per Roglic on a kilometer basis Roglic was studying behind me and The time checks were like I think two time checks on the flat before the final climb. I got the times. I don't know who was leading that time on the flat section.

I got that time and how much I think I was even behind. Then when the climb came, there were so many people. I did not hear a word on the radio. I just went. We thought I would go and I just went full gas to the top. Did you feel anything different that day? Did it like better than some of the other stages or was it simply a matter of he had deteriorated more than you across 20 days? Because it was the last hard stage.

The next day is just Sean's day, just roll through. It's still hard race, but if everything goes normally, your GC stays the same. Yeah, it was okay. Final time trial. I just need to be relaxed. I second place, white Jersey. They were preparing white bike for me for next day for ceremony. And it was cool.

It was dream. You didn't feel the pressure. I didn't feel nothing. No, we were really chilled out. I knew the parkour really well because I did the recon before with Alan Piper and Mikkel Bjerg, we did a lot of work on that. And when the day came, yeah, I was just mad. There was everybody was happy around and there was no tension, no stress, nothing.

And we just roll with it. And then it was one of the best days I ever had. Yeah. It's a little hard to believe. Do you remember what your average power was over that time trial? Yeah. On the flat, I had a power meter and a unit. was over that time trial? Yeah.

On the flat, I had a power meter and a unit. And then on the climb, I had nothing because I wanted to have a 6.8 kilograms bike, so as light as possible by regulations. On the flat, I went, I think 380 to 390. So nothing crazy on the flat, but I guess I was just going fast enough to be in that range. What was your weight by that point of the tour? Were you 60 kilos?

I think that year in 2020 I was like 66 even I think. Really? What did you weigh this year? I come to the tour with 64 and a half and then 65 and 65 and a half, then jumping from around 65 through all the tour. So, 21 is another amazing year. And in 22 and 23, you have great race, but a couple of stages where it goes wrong.

In 22, I guess the first stage where it was a struggle, was it 16? Yeah, in Col de Granun, we went Telegraph, Galibier, Down, Viancon, almost to Bresun. And nonstop attacking. Vizsla attacking, constant, constant, constant. Where I made my mistake. I mean, yeah, shouldn't follow Roglic immediately there on the Telegraph.

He take already on Telegraph. I think with, yeah, who was, I was Tish Benu and then Laporte with him on the downhill and they just flew down. And when we start the Galibier, they just go one by one. I had to respond, I think eight or nine attacks. And you looked very strong. Yeah, I was, I was really good, but I think, yeah, if you do eight sprints, no, takes too much. And then I tried to respond by being stupid, no,

and I tried to drop everybody from the wheel on Galibier, but then I knew that Vautonard is also in the front and he's checkmate anyway, no? So yeah, that was just stupid for me. And how much of that, I mean, just from a nutritional standpoint, did you feel depleted? Did you feel like you didn't have enough?

Were you short a bottle on that stage or something? I ate enough, but I think you cannot eat enough when you do so much, so much power, you do so much attacking, you cannot take more food than you can, no. So I think we had quite good plant nutrition and everything. But if you do too much with your body, you cannot replace that. When you're training, do you try to simulate that extent of attacking and recovering and obviously you can't replicate that fully in a training session? Since I was junior, even before I knew what's going to be per course like, then

As a junior, even before, I knew what's going to be percourses like, then I found around my home similar type and then just do repetitions of one climb, like how many times it's going to be in the race. And now sometimes I still do the same. I just see, for example, here in Montreal tomorrow is around four minutes, climb to five minutes and two short ones. So you just try to do as many as possible repetitions in the trainings as well, and trying to simulate the race. What kind of climb do you like the most? What kind of climb do you like the least in terms of grade iteration?

Well, depends on the shape also. I really like around 20 minute climbs, quite steep. 10 to 12% or not that steep? Yeah, I would say now that because we go really fast, 7% to 8%, it's already a lot of drafting. But then what's more than 9% I think is pretty cool because there's not much draft. So you can do what you want basically. Do you have many climbs near you that replicate where you can do 20 minutes at eight, nine, 10%? No, not really, not really, but five to 10 minutes. Yes.

9% 10% in Slovenia also just around 10 minutes with steep ones, but 20 minutes that's quite rare. And then how much does the heat factor into it and how much are you able to replicate that in training? I think heat training became a thing now in cycling a little bit. This especially this year, maybe last two, three years. I mean, we try to overheat the body in the training session in, or in a home trainer, it is a big factor, especially for me, I felt always that I struggle

when it's super hot. But yeah, if you try to train this, you can be better. Yeah. I mean, I guess I could imagine if you're on a trainer at home, it's easy to replicate it. Otherwise you just have to find the environment at the elevation altitude. This year, 2024, remarkable year for you, winning the Giro so comfortably, winning the Tour quite comfortably, but seemed to be your strongest year. I mean, people said, well, Jonas crashed early in the season, but the truth of it is Jonas's times were pretty remarkable this year.

I mean, he seemed to put out very good numbers. So it seemed to be just as much a function of you riding even better this year than Jonas coming in injured as much as he was, do you feel that that's the case? Jonas had a big injury this year. I don't know how exactly his recovery went because they kept it quite quiet. When he once got on the bike, I think he could start immediately training quite normal now

for sure at first, a little by little, but I think it affects on three-week stage race. It affects that preparation and you don't have the capacity to go three weeks. You have the power, like 10 minutes best power output or five minutes, 20 minutes you can do one day, but then maybe your body is not used to go another day. So I think that was the case with Jonas this year. He had a great power. He got great numbers, but then maybe he liked this three week extent to perform.

I feel like every cycling fan just feels that we have this incredible treat where we have both of you as these remarkable cyclists. You're both so young. We're going to have many more years of you guys racing each other. Do you feel you're going to continue to race the tour for many, many more years? I mean, obviously people are saying, look, you could break every record here. You could break the five tours, the seven tours. I mean, you could do it all.

Is it your intention to keep riding grand tours and specifically the Tour de France? Tour de France is the biggest race of cycling. So yeah, to keep being on the top, you need to do Tour de France. Yeah. I think battling between me and Jonas, pushing each other and always the tour is the test, who is better now of that year. And I think I will keep on riding the tour until once I don't enjoy this stress anymore,

maybe I hung up the bicycle in the garage or somewhere. Something seemed different in you this year. You seemed stronger. What changed in your training between 23 and 24? Well, I didn't change only training on the bike. I also implement core training more and more outside of the bike stuff. I got more into the details of nutrition as well. I'm getting older, so yeah, I'm not so obsessed anymore with just

going cake on cake or just sitting shit. No. So wait, does that mean that five years ago, you weren't paying much attention to your nutrition and you were kind of eating as much as you wanted? Yeah, for sure. When you're a kid, you can eat what you want and you don't gain fat. I mean, you don't gain too much because you're evolving, you're growing up. When you're a kid, you can eat what you want.

So you're at the age right now, cause you're going to be 26 in a week. Yeah. Do you need to watch your weight in the off season now? I mean, my all year looks more or less the same. I never restrict too much or I never say, okay, I cannot eat cake or I cannot eat chocolate, but all in measurements and when the time is right. Because if you restrict too much and you don't touch chocolate for a month or for six months, then one time you will break and you will go crazy. And I think that's not a good relationship with food.

So you need to have balance also with the bad food also. No. Then when it comes off season, I don't have the cravings. I'm like, okay, no, I go vacation. I have a nice food, good food, quality food, and not crazy amount. So I don't gain so much weight. What's the heaviest you'll be in the off season? 70? No, like 69, maybe 70 after when you wake up after party or something when our like big, big dinner with birthday party or something, no, when you eat just a lot,

but that's just also a lot of times just water weight or something, but around 69 would be maximum, maximum. Do you have a sense of how many grams of carbohydrate you can drink in an hour when you're training? You mean drink or eat? Both, total amount of carbohydrate. In drink we have either 30 grams or 60 grams in per bottles. Not a strong dilution then? No, I honestly, I like 30 grams of grams because then I can eat more.

But when it's a hard stage, it's better having 60 grams in the bottle and then you can eat less. I mean, still no, because for hard stages, you need to get around 120 grams per hour for easier stages from 60 to 90 is enough. So basically we aim for that per hour. Was that easy for you to get to, or did you have to train your gut to be able to eat that much? At first, it seemed like five years ago, 120 grams per hour. That's impossible, but with good food, with good nutrition. What do you like to eat and drink?

We have a sponsor, Enerit, with our nutritionists. He designed really good gels and the drink that's easy on the gut. Since they created this product, I don't have any stomach problems. Five years ago, I would always go shit my pants after the stage races or long races. And now even eating 120 grams, no stomach problems. And do you think that's more because you've gotten used to it? Or do you think it's more because your nutritionist has figured out a recipe that works for you guys? Yeah, I think it needs to be a good ratio between glucose, fructose and all other stuff

in the gels. And it needs to be good quality of what's inside. So you get used to it for sure. When you're training right now, I don't mean right now, I mean, when you're preparing, say, for the tour, how do you define your energy systems? You define them more by heart rate, by power, by how you feel, what are you using?

I've been training with heart rate monitor since I'm, I don't know, 12 years old, 10 years old. So I would say I know how my heart rate responds when I'm tired or when I'm good. So yeah, I could go by heart rate only, but it's always good to compare heart rate to power. But power meters are not so reliable these days, I would say. Really? Yeah. Which one do you guys use? SRM?

We have Shimano power meter. Yeah, you always need to be careful with the temperatures of the outside, the calibration, everything. And yeah, sometimes it can be off. You need to be careful about this. In my experiences, yeah, the best is to train on your home roads where you can also look the speed, the VAM, how fast you're moving. What kind of VAM are you able to reach when you're training? On training, seven, seven and a half percent. If you go all out, I think it's like 1700 to 1800 of VAM

for like 15 minutes. That's just incredible. I know that people listening might not appreciate that. I'm not gonna take time to explain what VAM is. If they know what it is, they understand how crazy that is. If they don't, they can look it up. I'm happy when I hit a thousand by the way, just for comparison. Yeah, depends on the gradient. No, but what I was trying to say is you're using these other metrics. Yeah. You see all these three things,

the speed, heart rate and power. Then you see, you know, how you feel and in which zone are you really in? No. And how much of your time are you spending at a low intensity, whether we call it zone two, whether we just call it aerobic, how much of your total training time would be in that zone and not burning matches? I love riding zone two. Yeah, around where I live in Monaco it's really hard to get big time in zone two because there's a lot of climbing and then you have all the downhills. Yeah, you can't make

them. Yeah, I tried to hit really high zone two on the climbs. They are like 20 to 40 minutes long and then you recover on downhill. But when I go home to Slovenia or somewhere else or in Spain, when we're training in Calpe or somewhere where it's more flat. I really like to stay five hours in zone two. True zone two. Yeah. And some trainings I would love to do just zone two and going nonstop. What is your heart rate at zone two? Approximately.

When I'm fatigued, it's 140, 145. When I'm a bit more fresh around 150 to 155. And how many watts are you putting out at that heart rate? 320 to 340. Again, I know it's just hard for people who are listening to us to understand what that means. 320 to 340 watts for five hours, keeping lactate below two,

keeping heart rate at 140 is really remarkable. That's also another thing, not in Monaco on the climbs where I can recover after you cannot look zone two and say this is your zone two because you did two 10 minutes test on this power. Because it's too much up and down. Yeah. If you're doing five hour ride, your zone two

after five hours, maybe be not be your zone two anymore. You always need to know at what time this zone two will not be your zone two anymore because on the flat, you will not recover and five hours of riding of three 20 to three 40 for me is also next day I'm not riding the bike. So when I go on flat for longer, I drop power to two 90 to 300. Do you track your heart rate or heart rate variability in the morning? Do those numbers give you any indication of how you're going to train that day or race? Yeah, I started this in, uh, 2020.

First, I was especially in COVID time, lockdown this, me and my girlfriend, we were doing that, but yeah, I did not find it really interesting or helpful. But this year I start using more to track HRV heart rate in the night. And yeah, I must say that I quite like it now to track it, but yeah, it's not something that... It can be misleading. It can get in your head a little bit

and you don't want it to tell you how you're gonna train that day. Yeah, it can be misleading. It's almost better for somebody else to look at it and tell you after. Well, my girlfriend, she had a really good method for a while, especially in races. She don't open in the morning. She opened it after the race. So she checked after the race, what was her heart rate variability in the morning?

Not in the morning. If it would be really low, she would stress and then would mess with the race. How much variation when you do look at your heart rate variability, how much morning, if it would be really low. Yeah. It doesn't mess with her. She would stress and then would mess with the race. How much variation when you do look at your heart rate variability, how much variation do you have between a high day and a low day of HRV? On a really good day, I'd say my HRV would be, I don't know, 120, 130, maximum some days can pick up to 150. On the lower end would be also, I don't know, 35 could be. That much of a difference.

Could be, yeah. But is that from drinking alcohol the night before maybe? Yeah. Okay. In the races, in the tour, for example, and Giro was quite steady, around from 80 to 110 was like average. Wow.

Every day. That's pretty amazing. And then resting heart rate. Do you care at all about that or how much heart rate range do you have? So what's the lowest you're going to be at? And then what is your maximum heart rate now versus five years ago? The lowest I hit since I'm tracking, I think was 37. My average, I would say is like in the night, I think 43, 42, but some days I could walk up with 48, 49 if you're sick or really fatigued, maybe even over 50.

The max heart rate. Yeah. When I was junior, I could hit 213, but was shorter races. And so now, for example, yesterday 2033 so it was still pretty high so I'm pretty happy about it. How often do you guys test VO2 max? It's been a while since I tested the last time VO2 max. Yeah interesting. Probably it's high. Yeah I'm gonna bet it's pretty high yeah. Do you do an FTP test out of season just as a way to track it, like a true 20 minute test? True 20 minute test also, it's been a while since I've done one.

I did this year fatigue test when you repeat eight minutes of one power. I mean, going higher and higher power and then also all out. Normally we do a home trainer test in the camp in December. It's long from one hour to one hour 30, depends how long you want to test to which zone you want to test, but yeah, normally around one hour 20 for me. 10 minutes steps on the home trainer and every five minutes you take lactate from the ear to check for the zones. And I like to do it also at home with my girlfriend.

One time I do for her. And she do it. You test each other. We test each other. Yeah, for people listening, your girlfriend is obviously a very competitive professional cyclist as well. She is, yeah. Yeah.

If you guys have kids one day, look out. Oh man. I don't want to put them in cycling though. Well, that would be a good idea actually, because they would probably have a very hard time filling their parents' shoes. So they should pick up another sport. They could be better even.

Yeah. Okay. Changing topics for a second. If we just think about three of the most epic climbs in the Tour de France. Well, for me, I would say Vontoo, Alpe d'Huez, Golibert, but what would be the most epic climbs? And what I really want to know is how do they compare in difficulty? Assuming you're equally fresh on all days, like same situation.

If you have to race up each pick those three, if I said Von Two, Galibia and Alpe d'Huez. Well, of those three, Galibia is the easiest. Then I would say, Ventoux second, no, Alpe d'Huez second and Von Two would be the hardest. I think is the hardest. Yeah. Also because of the nature. Because of the wind at the top and stuff like that.

Wind heat can be, no. Yeah. I'll do it. It's hard, but I think it's shorter and Gallipoli. It depends where it is in the stage too. Yeah. Also this from Brian's own side is like dragging up in the valley. And then when you turn right, I mean, it's quite high altitude, but it's still

quite a regular climb from the other side. You have telegraph and then small downhill and climbing again. But it's like, these are calls from Alps. They're all more or less the same. Galibie, Cote d'Albunet, these are almost identical climbs. So you're used to those. Alpe d'Huez is just mythical. You have way harder climbs than Alpe d'Huez for sure.

What is the hardest climb you think in the modern tour? For me personally, I call it the hardest. I think everybody would agree on this. Well, you had a very difficult day there in 23. Yeah. That was what stage 18? Was it the Queen stage? Yeah, it was stage 17, I think, or 16.

But yeah, I did it twice and first time, okay, I did good, but then I felt really tired after it. It was really exhausting climb. And yeah, last year was we did Loze and then small downhill and to Altiport in what's called this town, Courchevel. Yeah, this was brutal. TG This is something about you today that is very, it's very interesting. I've never seen a cyclist who in defeat is so gracious and it's clear that you're upset, but you demonstrate. I mean, I remember after that stage, you just thanked your team. You just said, thank God I had a great team

around me today or I would have come off the podium That's remarkable sportsmanship But how are you able to do that if I put myself in your shoes? I would just be so pissed off I wouldn't even want to talk to the media like I would just want to be locked in the trailer, you know It's not individual sport is the team sport and the guy sacrificed everything to be there in the tour To help one guy to win the tour. In this day we could really see how the guys reacted to me when I dropped. They helped me, they support me emotionally, physically, whatever. I really felt like I let them

down and I was feeling just, yeah, I was devastated. I was upset, angry, but I couldn't change it, so I just went with it. I was feeling down I was upset, angry, but I couldn't change it. So I just went with it. I was feeling down, but you cannot change nothing. And then when we had dinner with the guys, it was already better and they really helped me through that days. What did you think about after the 23 Tour? You'd now come in second twice.

And my guess is there were people out there saying, Hey, maybe this guy isn't the next Eddie Mercs. I'm sure you don't care about that, whether you're the next Eddie Mercs or not. But how did you think about that? And how did it motivate you over the winter coming into 2024, where you set off on this again, very aggressive schedule to win huge races going into the tour? Yeah, it's frustrating. It was tour. Yeah, it's frustrating. It was frustrating.

Yeah, I was anxious. I was stressed and I was not feeling great last year after the tour, but I evaluate what went wrong, what was the mistakes, what I can do better. Yeah, it all went back to the crash from Lierse preparation to the tour and everything else. It was a, it built up everything and yeah. Psychologically, I mean, did you have to get some confidence back? I mean, did you?

Yeah, for sure. I got some confidence back already on stage 20 when I win three days after that. World championships was like just a small patch on the wound, I would say. Third place, great racing, but it didn't feel enough. And then yeah, winning Lombardy is really big for me last year. Again, for sure people listening who might not understand that there are these five huge classic races that normally the people who win the Tour de France do not win those races and vice versa. This is a totally different sport. It's sort of like, I don't know, the person who wins the marathon winning the 10K.

I mean, even though that's not even remotely the right comparison, but yes, they're both on a bike, but it's different. And you've now won three of the five classics. Yeah. I mean, Lombardy is the closest one that ground tour winner can win. The other four is, they're really unlikely. Maybe Liege, Bastogne, Liege, but also it's really hard for ground tour contender to win those races.

You have Perry Rubé still. Yeah, Perry Rubé and San Remo. San Remo is the one that is going to send me to grave. I have a feeling. You're going to die trying to win that? Yeah, probably. I'm getting so close, but it's yet so far. It's unbelievable. To be clear, this is a feeling. You're going to die trying to win that? Yeah, probably. I'm getting so close, but it's yet so far. It's unbelievable.

It's. To be clear, this is a goal you want to win all five. I want to win first world championships, San Remo, and then we can see if there is a space for Rubé or not. Not to discount it, but the Vuelta? Yeah, of course Vuelta. My first grand tournoi in 2019, the podium was breakthrough for me with three stages, white jersey, and I want to come back

and seal the deal with the red jersey for sure. Yeah, well, I think you will. Try. What about the Olympics? Where does that rank on your goals? Well, it's in Los Angeles in four years. I really hope for a nice course. Again, climbing a course like was in

Tokyo or even harder. Yeah. We'll see when they announce it, how eager I will be, but Olympics in cycling is. It's hard timing right on the heels of the tour. You know, for other sports in some other sports, they train four years. Just for Olympics. And then this is the peak of career and in cycling, the peak of your career needs to be Tour de France every year.

So it's not as high a priority as winning the worlds, obviously. No, I mean, yeah, it's not. Do you watch, have you seen any of the Netflix series? Netflix has done the two specials on the tour. Have you ever watched them? Yeah, I watched the first season. I didn't watch the second season I watched because I was in a training camp.

I didn't have anything better to watch. But yeah, for people like us, when we are there, it's not so fun to watch. It's fun for me to be able to watch it with my wife or with friends if they're not cycling fans. So they're not going to watch the tour with me and stuff like that. One of the things that people who don't watch cycling,

and frankly people like me who do, still cannot believe is how you guys are able to ride while fans are encroaching the roads. What's the closest call you've had with a fan? First, yeah, the fans are amazing. When I was a kid, I always wanted that feeling to ride through the group of fans like this and now I enjoy it the most.

The closest I've been, I don't know, in Koljaloše was in 2020, was some close calls with Slovenian fan. Yeah, but normally you need to watch the flags. The flags are really tricky one because they are waiting in the middle of the road and they move it the last time and sometimes they move differently the flag. When I'm watching this with my wife, she gets so mad at the TV. She's like, get out of the way, get out of the way. She's screaming at the TV for the fans to move.

She's so upset. I think they help. So I was going to say the opposite because I try to put myself in a cyclist shoes and I feel like I would subconsciously be holding back a little bit for fear of hitting them. Not that you're worried about hitting them, but worried about falling because you do sometimes let off the throttle a little bit, especially like if you attack or something and you're in the zone, you feel like you're pushing all the words that you can.

But then when you see the fence, I don't know, maybe let off a little bit, but it's still high power, I would say. But also because when the adrenaline is so high and the noise is incredible, the noise is so loud and you're just riding and you don't actually lose any momentum and it's crazy. It's hard to describe. I can't imagine actually. It looks like one of the craziest things I've ever seen. This year in the tour, I was very surprised that certain commentators were almost expressing disappointment when you were winning stages after you had already secured the yellow jersey.

Did any of that make it to you? And if so, does that mean anything to you that people are saying he shouldn't be winning so much? I actually don't see so many people saying he shouldn't win so much. Okay, the ones that hate me, they will say that, but obviously they hold something against me. It's normal But even the people that are neutral and this don't say it in that I should hold back I shouldn't win so much. It's just the media and the commentators and journalists. They like to Say these things just so have something controversial to say but I really don't see so much

Controversy in this because also for me in some stages, a lot of stages, I count the other day how many stages. I win 12 stages in Grand Tours this year and I think we control to win and that I won was seven stages. So it's just a little bit more than half, no? So it's not so bad. Do you even think about equaling or bettering the mark now of Merckx and Cavendish in tour stage wins?

I don't want to think so much ahead, just because you never know when is your last win, no? That's why you take every win. Yeah, if it's there, you take it. If you enjoy it, you feel good, you go for the stage, you win, no? Unless is there some other reason, but yeah, I mean, 36 or how much? Yeah, 34 or 36 or something. 35 stages from Cavendish is just crazy.

And yeah, it's incredible achievement. Yeah. I don't want to think so much ahead. I want to go from tour to tour and see how I feel and what can I do now. Have you met Eddie Merckx? I assume you have. Yeah, I did. I meet him a few times, one time more closely, but that was, uh, now already

three years ago, yeah, we met for dinner. Was nice. There's a great book about him called half man, half bike. It's one of my favorite books about cycling and it's kind of the story of his life and career. It's just amazing. I'm sure you would enjoy it because it gives you an appreciation for how could a guy win all of these races like what you're doing, right?

You're winning grand tours, he's winning the one day classics. And then of course in 1972 to just obliterate the one hour world record, a record that would stand for 12 years. And even 12 years later when it was broken by Francesco Moser, I mean, it was using completely new arrow equipment and stuff. Whereas Merck's did it on a simple bike. I've read certainly that Merck's has considered you truly the second coming of him that must mean a lot to you. I don't know.

I don't know how to respond to that, but yeah, for sure. He was one of the greatest, especially at his time. This was, yeah, it was incredible. And how he won the races and I never saw any of his racing, but yeah, just a, when you read his Palmares is just unbelievable. And yeah, it's something that you you cannot imagine in this era to achieve. I don't think it's possible to do the same what he did. It's different cycling now.

Do you think that the one-hour record is something you would even entertain in terms of making the effort for it and training for it, setting aside time? I was until Ghana did it. And then Bingham, I think he did also before people. Before that time, I would consider it now, not so much. Ghana was fast, really. He did incredible. What is the difference between your power when you are climbing? So your femurs are not kinked down versus when you're in a time trial position. How many Watts do you lose being in a time trial position for the same period of time? I don't know.

I still trying to figure this one out actually. But yeah, I see that I have on time trial. I have some good days and some bad days. I'm not so consistent as on a road bike, but when it matters, I can push more or less the same numbers on the TT bike as on the road bike. It's coming all along now with biomechanics, wind tunnel testings and so many trainings, so many intervals doing that you're trying to figure out the best position to be possible to do this power.

You mentioned that you did some more strength work in the off season coming into 24 as part of the reason why you seem even stronger than before, which is hard to imagine. Were you doing any strength training for your legs? Were you doing any weights? Yeah, a little bit weights. I'm still doing the strength training throughout the season, but with less weights, but yeah, still legs, core, glutes, hips.

And this is for me personally is important. Yeah. Not anymore, but did you ever used to, when you were growing up, run or swim or do any other endurance sports? We were younger in our team in Ljubljana. In the winter, we were running up the mountain three, four times per week. After school, we had meeting, training meeting, and we go this mountain that was close by and we go two, three times up, down.

That was it. We swam also a few years, one time per week for one hour or something. Yeah, we tried different sports in the winter and cross country skiing. This is my favorite. Yeah. Running on the flat, not so much, but now I try in the last two years, I tried to put running also into off season. Really?

I tried to start in off season and I tried to keep it as long as possible to season, but didn't work out this year. So in your off season, what is the most days you'll go without being on a bike at all? No stationary bike, no outdoors. Well, stationary bike is no go for me anyway, especially in off season. I don't do it, but yeah, I don't know. We have a team camp in UAE. It's like six days, but yeah, last year, for example, we went with the boys run together in,

uh, in Abu Dhabi two times and playing paddle something. So, and then going off to vacation, then on vacation, you get bored, you go for a run or playing paddle or whatever again, or swimming. And I cannot say that I do two weeks without the bike or without any training at all. Cause I really enjoy doing other stuff and other sports. So yeah, maybe three days doing nothing. Then one day you do something and then maybe three days again, nothing. And, but then mid November, always starting on a bike road bike again.

You were at the Tour of California this year or last year you won Tour of California? Tour of California 2019. Oh, 2019. Yeah. But they didn't do Palomar that year. That you didn't have a climbing stage in Mount Palomar. I don't think.

I don't know. You won in the second to last stage, I think. It was Mount Baldy. Yeah, yeah, that's right. And we went to Lake Tahoe also, one stage. And that was it from big climbing. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Uh, and we went to Lake Tahoe also, one stage and that was it from big climbing. Yeah. How old were you when you realized you were going to be, or you knew you wanted to be a professional cyclist?

I was a junior. So 16, 17 years, 17 years old when I thought that I have a chance to be professional, to be in the World Tour team. But yeah, second year juniors, I realized that I can definitely be in World Tour. And then when I come to under 23, I already signed with UAE team pre-contract for 2019, so two years after. Well, Tadej, I have a million more questions I could ask you, but I know you've got a team

meeting shortly. I want to make sure you get to that on time. I want to make sure you get a good dinner and have a great race tomorrow. And above all else, I mean, really we're just, I think everybody's kind of excited to see you at the Worlds in a couple of weeks. And again, not to put pressure on you, but just so people understand the significance of that, to be able to win two Grand Tours in a year is really unprecedented. If there's a chance to add a world title to that it's kind of unbelievable. And at the other end of that should it not happen this year given that you're not

yet 26 I think most people would take the bet that you're gonna have another shot at that. Yeah but the sooner we get it over the better is there is no more pressure. Yeah I love it. Well thank you Tadej. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to this week's episode of The Drive. It's extremely important to me to provide all of this content without relying on paid ads. To do this, our work is made entirely possible by our members, and in return, we offer exclusive member-only content and benefits above and beyond what is available for free. So if you want to take your knowledge of this space to the next level, it's our goal to ensure members get back much more

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