The Peter Attia Drive - #82 - Mark Messier: Leadership, personal growth, and performing under pressure

Episode Date: December 2, 2019

In this episode, Mark Messier, six-time Stanley Cup champion, shares the most valuable lessons he picked up over 25+ years of professional hockey resulting in one of the longest and most decorated careers in hockey history. Mark shares what lead to his unique brand of humble leadership, how he was able to get talented individuals to effectively work as a team, the importance of maturing and evolving as a person, and how he was able to stay calm and perform at his best under enormous amounts of pressure. Additionally, we go through his favorite moments as a player, what it was like playing with and learning from The Great One, Wayne Gretzky, and much more. We discuss: Overview of Mark’s extraordinary 25+ year professional hockey career [7:15]; The trend towards kids focusing on one sport earlier and earlier—A good or bad thing? [12:00]; Mark’s early passion for hockey, and when he realized it could be his “job” [14:15]; Going pro at age 17 [19:30]; Mark’s favorite experience playing professional hockey [25:45]; Playing with (and learning from) the great Wayne Gretzky [26:40]; A hard lesson learned in his first year as a pro [32:00]; Lessons learned from losing his first Stanley Cup Finals [35:45]; Redemption—Winning his first Stanley Cup and the beginning of a dynasty in Edmonton [41:15]; Importance of team character [54:00]; The shocking trade of Wayne Gretzky, and Mark stepping up as the new leader and team captain [59:30]; Playing for the New York Rangers—the lure of the city and the pressure to perform [1:07:00]; Ending the 54-year championship drought for the New York Rangers [1:13:30]; Becoming a great leader [1:16:30]; How to win the mental war against your opponent [1:20:30]; Opposing players for which Mark had great respect [1:22:00]; Retiring after an unbelievably long and lustrous career [1:27:00]; How to leverage stress and nervousness into a positive force [1:32:45]; The most important quality—A willingness to learn, improve, and evolve [1:36:00]; What does Mark do today for exercise to stay in great shape? [1:44:30]; Why playing sports is such a great thing for kids [1:49:30]; The Mark Messier Foundation [1:53:00]; How has Mark avoided the “loss of identity” feeling which plagues many retired athletes? [1:56:15]; Does Mark think it’s possible to reproduce a team as good as his Oilers teams of the 80s? [1:59:30]; Would Mark ever want to coach in the NHL? [2:03:00]; Will the Toronto Maple Leafs ever win the Stanley cup? [2:04:00]; and More. Learn more: https://peterattiamd.com/ Show notes page for this episode: https://peterattiamd.com/markmessier Subscribe to receive exclusive subscriber-only content: https://peterattiamd.com/subscribe/ Sign up to receive Peter's email newsletter: https://peterattiamd.com/newsletter/ Connect with Peter on Facebook | Twitter | Instagram.

Hey everyone, welcome to the Peter Atia Drive. I'm your host, Peter Atia. The drive is a result of my hunger for optimizing performance, health, longevity, critical thinking, along with a few other obsessions along the way. I've spent the last several years working with some of the most successful top performing individuals in the world, and this podcast is my attempt to synthesize what I've learned along the way to help you live a higher quality, more fulfilling life. If you enjoy this podcast, you can find more information

on today's episode and other topics at peteratia-md.com. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ Hey everybody, welcome to this week's episode of The Drive. I'd like to take a couple of minutes to talk about why we don't run ads on this podcast. If you're listening to this, you probably already know, but the two things I care most about, professionally, are how to live longer and how to live better. I have a complete fascination and obsession with this topic. I practice it professionally, and I've seen firsthand how access to information is basically

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itself, and two, the additional content exclusive for members. I want to thank you for taking a moment to listen to this. If you learn from and find value in the content I produce, please consider supporting us directly by signing up for a monthly subscription. My guess this week is Mark Messier. Mark is considered one of the greatest hockey players of all time. He had a career that spanned 25 years in the NHL, and he's played the second most games

of any player second only to Gordy Howe, and there's an interesting story that we'll get to in the podcast about how close he came to that record. He's also the second leading all-time scorer of all time, or as he likes to put it, the first leading all-time scorer amongst mere mortals with Wayne Gretzky, being the only one who scored more than he did. It would take me too long to kind of go through all of Mark's professional accolades, six-time Stanley Cup champion, the only person to captain two different teams to win a Stanley Cup, the Edmonton-Oilers, and the New York Rangers, in addition to all the number of All-Star games he's played in and the number of MVP's that he's won, etc. I wanted to talk with Mark about a number of things today. I wanted to obviously talk about his career,

and this is kind of a boyhood dream of mine to speak with one of my heroes who I've had the privilege of getting to know over the past couple of years. But also, I wanted to just talk about Mark's philosophy in life and leadership and amazing transition he has made and the ease with which it seems he's been able to transition out of the limelight into his family life and his work outside of hockey. We touch on many things here but we do sort of go through it chronologically and I think if you're a hockey fan this is a no-brainer for you but I would encourage you even if you're not a hockey fan to listen to this one, I think you're going to get a lot out of it. I think I was really on the edge of my seat, honestly, during so many parts of this, and even though a lot of the stories I knew, but I don't think I really appreciated growing up watching

Mark was the subtlety and the maturation process that came along with his leadership and his growth as an individual. I almost forgot that he entered the NHL at the age of 17 or 18 years old, which seems almost unimaginable today. I'll leave it at that, and without further delay, please enjoy my conversation with Mark Messier. Mark, thanks so much for coming into the city today. Good to be here with you. How often do you come into New York City these days? Actually quite often, especially with the

Emerging Kingsbridge project up in the Bronx, would set up an office down on 21st Street and was coming in for at least a couple years, at least four times a week. And then Ranger Games and other charitable initiatives and dinners and meetings, New York is still friendly. I'm a regular on the on the subways and trains now. Yeah, I was about to say, I mean, you know, you took the subway and today,

to most days to someone recognizing on the train? Every day on the train coming in from Greenwich, then on the subway is obviously takes a lot of selfies on the subway, but it doesn't get old. It's just amazing, you know, almost 20 years later, the passion that's still in the city and the people that were involved with the Rangers at Europe. If not actually there during the regular season in the playoffs and of course, it's down like up in 1994. So yeah, this is 25 years, which went to 25 year. Yeah, it is hard to believe actually where we had our reunion last year. We couldn't believe it It's hard to believe. It is hard to believe actually. We had our reunion last year.

We couldn't believe it's been actually 25 years. Yeah, we were talking before we started this podcast about even just, it seems like you didn't retire 14 years ago or whatever it was 15 years ago. It seems, I guess that's what happens when we get older. Time seems to be going by quicker. Life does not stand still. That's for sure, especially when you have kids, you can see the growth obviously every year.

And it's fun though, every stage of the development of the kids has been amazing, being a part of their lives and being retired. So I can be home for that, has been incredible. So yeah, I've enjoyed retirement, but still, when you start actually reminiscing and talking about my career, it's hard to believe I've been retired now almost 14 years. We'll talk a lot about your career,

but I mean, I think one little factoid that's always worth mentioning is the length of it, right? It's that, I mean, you played in the NHL for 25 years, correct? 25 years in the NHL, 26 years as a professional, started when I was 17 and that's back when they had the WHA, which was a secondary league. A lot of the NHLers, Wayne Gretzky, Craig Hart's Berg, they used to call it. It was a big race to sign the under-age players back

then, especially for the WHA, who was competing with the NHL. So I was able to play as a 17-year old for two teams, and I have the distinction of. So I was able to play as a 17-year-old for two teams, and I have the distinction of being the youngest player at Everda Fold, a professional franchise in hockey or Cincinnati or the Indianapolis racers. I played five games, and they folded, went home back to Edmonton for a couple of weeks, and then Cincinnati signed me about two weeks later.

It's interesting to look back at, because that's, as you know, because we've talked about this before, but I mean, the Oilers were my team growing up, even though I grew up in Toronto. I mean, one, the Leafs were just such a bad team in the 80s. You know, you'd be hard to be a Leafs fan, but also Edmonton was just the most exciting team in hockey. So I remember those early 80s years, and those were, I think it's, unless you're in a real hockey die hard, I don't think most people remember what the Oilers were like in the 80s, like what it was like to have Gretzky, Messier, Curry, Coffee, Low, Führer, Anderson, like that all of those guys were on one team.

Yeah, like, a free agency wouldn't permit that today, right? It would be hard to keep the players for as long as we did but just to put it in perspective I used to travel a lot in the summertime. I had to travel bug and went all over the world and the Oilers literally in Wayne Gretzky put Edmonton on the map and there wasn't anywhere we didn't travel that someone didn't know where Edmonton was because of the hockey team, which was always kind of gave you a sense of pride just because of what we're able to accomplish, but also what we're able to do in the sporting world that was being recognized with people all over the world. That

was eye opening for me coming from Edmonton and traveled a bit with our family, but once I started really going abroad and that really hit at home with that, we were doing something special and actually we had a really special team with some amazing players that were being recognized around the world. So you grew up how close to Edmonton? I know you're from Alberta, right? Yeah. So Edmonton, Alberta was grew up right now. Were you in a suburb of Edmonton or eventually, but when I first came back, my father was playing

hockey in Portland, Oregon. For the Portland Buckeh Rooz, I think we've moved back in 1968. He came back and taught school. I think I came back and was going to grade one or two or a straight around there. And then I rate about when I was turning or getting to grade four, we moved out of Edmonton to St. Albert, which was a small community at the time, just north of the city, finished my schooling there and played junior hockey till I

actually signed as a 17 year old to go to the WHA. So when did you start playing hockey? Well, I think like everybody else, I started skating fairly early, but I think my first organized hockey team was pretty much like everybody like right at six years old. Actually started in Portland. My father started the whole minor hockey league programs in Portland.

They didn't have kids hockey back then. He was responsible for really getting the whole minor hockey league system up and running in Portland, Oregon. How did it fit into other sports and other activities you were doing? Was it one of those things where everybody talks about Wayne's story where he's two years old, like basically you can't stop him from playing, right? It's like you won't come in from the rink. He's taking shots on his grandmother in the kitchen. Was it like that for you or was it just another sport that you played in addition to baseball? No, I loved hockey. Back when I played, it was completely different.

We played hockey in the winter time. We had 120-hour program. We had two practices, two games a week. We didn't travel to tournaments. Everything was right in Edmonton. And when this winter or the spring came, we played baseball or soccer. So we played multiple sports. And if you talked

away and you listen to what he talks about is he was a great athlete in the other way that he played all sports. He played baseball. He's a great baseball player. He's a great lacrosse player. And he played hockey in the winter time. And that's the way it was. Now it's kind of been more professionalized at an early age, which some would dispute is not the most healthy thing for kids, but that's the way it is now. Yeah, what do you think of that? I mean, my reading of professionalized at an early age, which some would dispute is not the most healthy thing for kids, but that's the way it is now. Yeah, what do you think of that? I mean my reading of the literature, so this is a very academic view of this, not as my kids aren't in Southern California, hockey's not even on their radar, even though obviously lots of kids in SoCal do play hockey, but

it would seem that the approach that you took was a better approach actually, which is a broader sampling of sports and developing a broader set of athletic abilities before ultimately sort of narrowing your focus. I mean, that looks to be the better formula, but it's not what's typically happening today, is it? It's not. And I think because of it, it puts a lot of pressure on the parents, both on a time issue for parents and the pressure puts on the rest of family, but also on the financial by having to travel consistently to different places to play

term on hockey and whatnot. But until you get to the age of 14, it's really the kind of the age where kids start separating themselves into what they really want to do and they're more focused on what they want to do. But up until then, I've always believed that it's great to try a lot of different sports and become a better athlete, a total better athlete. In all regards, and I think the science would probably prove that, and there's all kinds of examples of some hockey players that actually made it to the NHL that didn't really start playing hockey till they were 14 or 15 years old Which debunks the myth of that you have to be playing hockey 365 days from the time you're a two years old to the time you get drafted

It's just not the case. You got to be blessed with a god-given talent To order in order to make it and then at the right time you have to hone those skills and you have to have to desire and a passion to Put the work in but there's a lot of kids that go through that whole process that never do make it. So where is that fine line and that balance that's really healthy for the family structure, healthy for the kid and give him the best opportunity to fulfill his own dreams? So what's the earliest memory you have of your dad playing? Because I got to believe that that sort of at least planted a seed in your mind or no question I remember I wasn't even in school yet and we're living in Portland Oregon and my father would take me

with him to his practices sometimes I probably was maybe four three four years old and then we'd be able to go skate on the ice in Portland before his practice started. So you know, I have very early memories of him playing. I can honestly say I don't really actually remember him being on the ice in a game vaguely. We got some old pictures and some old videos that we watch once in a while, but no question him being a hockey player really cemented the passion and it's amazing how much you learn sitting around the kitchen table talking about hockey when you have a parent that was so entrenched in the game itself not only as a player But as a coach and as a mentor to a lot of young kids after his retirement

When did it start to make sense to you that? Like this thing that you love doing or one of several sports you like doing, you actually could do this as your job. I mean, how old were you and that became? Yeah, you know, I always played up. My brother was four years older and me, or three years older and me, I guess. So when we moved back from Portland to Edmonton, Paul was basically a pee-wee. I think he was 10 years old or somewhere in there. I was seven. So my dad was coaching and he didn't want to go to two different practice times and two different ranks.

So he just put me on the team. And so I was always playing against older kids. Joe was, I had a career as a pewie. I think I played four years as a pewie. But I was never really that great growing up. I liked the game. I always watched Hockey Night inen and Canada did all the things that most kids do when they love a sport. I guess, you know, I didn't have very much success as a

ban on them. I think one of my ban on me years or one of my midget years, we won one game the whole time of the whole year. So individually, I wasn't really kind of standing out, maybe because I was planning against older kids. But do you remember if you were has so having fun? Oh, yeah, I felt about it. Oh, you love it Oh, yeah, loved it. Oh, yeah, never question about my dad was really cool about practices and all that He would he always knew if I was just being lazy or if I really just needed not to go because of Tired school or whatever so there's never any pressure and that regard to go because of tired school or whatever. So there's never any pressure in that regard to go to the rings. But we would be besides our practices, we would go with our friends and play outside and that's what we would do on the weekends when we weren't playing. I mean, that's how we spent

our time. I want the outside rings with our buddies and sipping hot chocolate and playing shini. I had a real passion for the game, but I had a passion for all sports. I love being outside, playing, throwing soccer, football, lacrosse. I tried them all. Wasn't that great in any of them there, but certainly had the passion for hockey, and it was probably looking back at it was probably my main sport. So when you're, what, 12, 13, 14 did anything start to change at that point in terms of your... Not too late. ...I was a late developer. I didn't really start growing at 15. I think I had a little girl spirit.

I shot up to like five, nine, and 150 pounds. Actually made that next fall after turning in 15 in January. The next fall, I made the junior team, which at a 15 was pretty good. By that time, I was maybe growing a little bit more, but I was a late developer physically. You that time I was maybe growing a little bit more, but I was late developer physically. You know, I played four years of junior when I finished junior, I was six, one, a couple hundred pounds, and that's when I left to go play pro. So when I was right around 14, I really started to kind of

I used to practice with my dad's junior team. They're all 20 to, you know, 15 to 20 years old when I was younger and trying to do all the drills and catching up. But I was, you know, I was working hard, but I couldn't really generate any speed. And my dad was, come on, he got a skate, skate, and I was, in my own mind, I felt the illustrating. But all of a sudden, I started getting, growing and getting stronger. All of a sudden, I tried getting, started getting longer, started getting more speed, and everything just started to fall into place

once I turned 15 and became a junior hockey. Now, were you weight training at the time? What kind of off day training? I started weight training until I was 15. You know what, at that time, you know, the conventional wisdom, we had to wait a certain time to your growth plates and all that. I think it's still true to today.

We had an assistant coach, after my first year of junior, who befriended one of the world's strongest men in the contest. Huge guy. And he had brought home a program that he did. And it was Monday, Wednesday, Friday, three-hour sessions. And, you know, we just used to lift it. It's all changed now, but back then it was heavy weights and you know we couldn't even lift their arms up their washer, hair after in the shower. It was one of those real beefy big weight heavy weight weight lifting programs but that

really really really cemented it for me. I loved the workout. I could see the changes happening there so between between getting the power on the ice, so I could skate faster and handle myself. And it really all started to kind of come together from you at that rate around that 15-year old age. So you're 17. You're in the WHO, which as you pointed out a moment ago, I mean, the WHO was absorbed, at least four of the teams, I think, were absorbed by the NHL when the WHO folded. But there were a lot of great players in the WHO. I mean, many stars in the NHL

came out of that league. What was it like back in the late 70s? Was the idea that you play in the WHO and then eventually go to the NHL, or was it a totally parallel path that you pick one or the other? No, not really. It was just that there was a lot of underages being signed by. Did the NHL have a cap on what you could sign at the time? No, there was no cap, nothing like that at the NHL. And the NHL wasn't too happy about losing these young great players to the leg grutsky to the WHO. So it was a little bit of tenuous relationship obviously between the two leagues. The WHO folded for those teams when I think was when a big Quebec, Edmonton and Hartford joined the NHL from,

so I went from a 16 team to a 21 team. I think the team in Kansas, if somebody became, I can't remember now. My trajectory was, I was gonna go follow my brother's footsteps to a college scholarship to Denver University. So I had kind of a verbal commitment from Marshall Johnson at the time who was scouting the Western teams in junior and that felt like a great, great idea. And so I stayed in junior B, which gives you the ability to go play college hockey instead of the major junior where you

can't take your eligibility away. So that was what I was planning on doing and all of a sudden the opportunity came to go play in the WHA and I was kind of getting bigger and stronger. And obviously looking back, I was never ready to go play pro hockey as a 17 year old, but I can honestly say it was a great experience. What did your folks say? What did your mom say about that specifically? I think my mom was too happy, but my dad was a little more...

He kind of realized that I was at the point of, it was my fourth year of junior hockey. I was kind of playing pretty well at that particular time for that league. I couldn't go to college yet. I had to finish the year. And so I was kind of stuck in this kind of place. But was playing going to take that college eligibility away? I'm assuming a year in the WHO would be going to go. No, I became a signed a contract. I became a pro at that that wiped out the college. Was that a hard decision to make for you personally? I would have liked to have gone to college, but for me, it just seemed to be the right thing

for me at the time emotionally and for what I was really trying to accomplish. I wanted to be a pro hockey player at that time. I'd kind of thrown everything into the ring. So, you know, and someone's gonna sign you and give you some money to go play hockey. It didn't seem like a bad idea. I'm kind of amazed how small many of those contracts were

at the time. I mean, Gretzky had, I think, a huge contract with the Indianapolis racers that ultimately got bought by the oilers. Well, even the WHA. Even Gis wasn't big. But relative to the WHA. Relative to the, well, you know, Bobby Holes signed for a million dollars back in the early 70s, which was huge money for anybody back then.

So they were given some money out to try to get some recognition. And wasn't Gordy Howe in the WHA at this point as well? Gordy Howe. I played against Gordy How in the WHO. Because he was playing for the Wailers at the time. He was playing for the Wailers. Yeah. And they had a bunch of old Boston Bruins, David Keon, Johnny McKenzie. I mean, I watched these, these guys play on Hockey 9 Canada my whole life. And here I am.

As a 17 year old WHA planning against Gordy How and Johnny McKenzie and Dave Keon and all these amazing players that had watched for years in the NHL that had finished their careers in the WHA. So it was amazing actually. Do you remember the first time you met Kratzki? I do. I always tell the story when I was flying from Ebb and Tyn to go play for Indianapolis was shortly after he was got traded with Peter Driscoll and Eddie Meal, and he was on a plane flying from Indianapolis to Edmonton. And so our paths crossed in the air, and so I didn't meet Wayne other than plan against.

So I didn't meet him until training camp when the leagues folded. I was drafted by Edmonton, and then we met at training camp in 1979. And that would be in the NHL now. That was in the NHL. So you guys didn't meet, I didn't realize that. I thought you guys paths in w h a but you actually didn't really meet till you were both now No, I was playing in the Niniapolis They folded and I went to Cincinnati to finish the year for 52 games and Wayne was got traded to Edmonton so we played against each other but didn't know each other and how many of the other

Sort of foundational players of the oilers came in that merger? Who else was there? Was fear there? No, fear didn't get drafted until 80, two years into our and. And curry came later. And curry came maybe the second after the second draft. What about low? Low was the first draft for the Evans and Overs. Yeah, Kevin was the first draft ever of the Evans and Overs back in 1979 80 draft. of the Evans and others back in 1979-80 draft. I think Curry came the next year, Grant and Paul Koffee came the second year with Curry. Curry was like a fourth fifth rounder. Then Grant was drafted early in the third year.

So we basically, that whole team from the draft came together and it was... So Andy Mogue was the goalie coming out of w h a Andy Mogue know he didn't come to a later either he was playing you know He came from Penn Tickton was playing major junior He got there before grant He came the second year when we upset the Montreal Canadians. Yes, which was 1981 was 1981 I think our goalie got hurt or Glenn say they put them in on a whim and they still the show as a rookie goalie That was back when I mean a lot of people don't remember what the NHL looked like back then

But my recollection I was only eight years old, but I was still obsessed One played 16 to played 15 like it was done like a sweet 16 Independent of conference wasn't it? Absolutely 21 team league 16 made the playoffs, age from each conference, and you seeded yourself depending on where you stood during the regular season. And so Edmonton gets in there, 16th.

The top seed is the Montreal Canadians. The second year, first year we played Philadelphia. We made the playoffs the first year. We had to win nine of the last ten games of the regular season our first year just to make the playoffs. And of course, Philadelphia was a team who we played. They beat us in, I think they beat us three straight back then over the first series. Yeah, the first series was the best of five. Yep. Best of five. So

they beat us pretty handedly. They had it. They had a really good team. And then it's that second season, which is 81 82 if I'm I was a 88 81 88. Yeah. Well, you guys Montreal, Canadians, you upset the Canadians. We upset the Canadians, which was one of the most to this day, one of my best experiences playing hockey, that whole series against Montreal. And I can't remember everything that happened,

but I just remember coming home and people in Google it and it's the impossible dream. We were under the in the dressing room obviously waiting to be come out onto the ice and they played a video with the song impossible dream with all the highlights because we won the first two games in Montreal and coming home to close it out. To this day it makes it here in the back of my neck stand up of how energized that city was. Was that the moment you realized that you were going to win a Stanley Cup?

Whether or not that year, but when was the moment when you thought this is a really special group of people? Well, it wasn't quite that soon, but I think what we all recognized was that Wayne was on a different trajectory than most any other hockey player that ever played the game. And the chances of Wayne and Winni-St's Stanley Cup were going to be pretty good. And if we all played our cards right and we're able to grab an orren start rolling and fill a need on the team, our chances increased significantly if we could follow Wayne. And that's true. That's the way we felt.

Wayne was completely different than any hockey player. He was chasing records books. He wanted to smash every record that it was ever made. Well, 81-82 is sort of a crazy year because those are some of my really first memories of hockey. So, I grew up in Toronto. So you guys always were two hours behind us. So to watch an oiler's game, you know, it was really a big ask of my mom.

I mean, I think my mom's permission to stay up late because you guys weren't starting your games until 9 p.m. Toronto time. Oh, school night. On a school night. But I would beg and plead. And I think my mom just gave up. I mean, it was just like, oh, for heaven's sake. It was much TV.

Yeah. I think he tied Marcel Dianne his first year with 165 points and then the second year I think he smashed it with 190 some points and wanted going away and then onto 215 points with 12 and then to 12 to 15, you'll score in 50 goals and 39 games. Well, it's that that night I remember. So do you remember that night in Edmonton against Philadelphia when he's got 45 goals going into the 39th game? And at that point everybody knows 50 and 50 is going to go down, but nobody knows.

It's going to be five goals in one night. Everybody's just trying to anticipate where to be and where to get tickets when it's going to happen, but nobody going to that rank that night thought he was the score, five goals against the Philadelphia Flyers. The big, bad, tough Philadelphia Flyers, there were no way they were gonna let that happen. And sure enough, he did. He scored five goals and Pete Peters and what an amazing time to sit there and watch that genius

on a day-to-day basis. And very, how often in anybody's life can they look at one of their peers? A guy that's your same age and look at up to him as a role model But that's what Wayne was for us. He was so far ahead of us in his own mental preparation and the way he prepared for games and both physically and mentally and his Ambition of what he wanted to do in the game of hockey all those things were just so far superior and

of what he wanted to do in the game of hockey, all those things were just so far superior. And then to be able to sit there and watch how he practiced in his practice habits, and how he prepared for games, and it was just remarkable to have someone like that to learn from. I want to understand that a little bit more, because I think most people are familiar with you as one of the greatest leaders in hockey. I mean, you are the only person to Captain 2 Stanley Cup teams. You've kept an Edmonton to a Stanley Cup in the absence of Gretzky, and then you kept in the Rangers to a Stanley Cup.

And no one's done that before or since. And yet what I'm hearing you say is some of your early sort of lessons in leadership came from watching Gretzky. Well, not only Wayne, but a lot of people, obviously my father, who was a great mentor and role model for not only myself and my brother and my sisters, but also a lot of hockey players that he coach. He was a great coach, a great mentor, and then all the people that helped you along the way. And then you then you get to turn pro and then you start watching other players and you start watching and listening to coaches and

you start filling up your bag with all this experience. And so you kind of learn through successes and failures of what actually works for you as a player and as a person. So you're kind of collecting all this data all the way along. Wayne just happened to be a teammate that was obvious to everybody that he was going to become the best hockey player to ever play the game. He proved it as a kid from the time he was four years old to the time.

He was in junior hockey. There's a time he turned pro and here he is, scoring 215 points on herd of numbers in any sport no matter how you compare it to. It's worth pausing on that for a moment because I don't think a non-hockey fan can put in perspective what Wayne Gretzky did during about a seven-year run from 81 to 88, right? What you just described, to my knowledge, no player has ever scored more than 200 points in a season. Gretzky averaged that for seven consecutive seasons.

Yeah, I know. You're probably true. I know that he had, you know, two 15, two 12, two of five, two of two a few times, 190. I mean, there was years when he was winning the scoring title on assists alone. Yeah, the only guy that I can actually say that was, you could even talk about Wayne and the same breath in that regard as far as that offensive genius

would be, Mario. Mario, yeah. Mario had some injuries early on and so he never had that consistency that Wayne did. But he would be the only guy that I could even think about comparing to that offensive genius that exists in a guy that was able to do that. It was amazing having that role model there, right? For a guy that was my own age. who would have. That's right, because you guys are both born in 68 days. I remember reading a funny story once, and again, it could be totally BS, because it was just miss blown out of proportion, but early in your days in Edmonton, you sort of got in trouble for something. I don't know, did you fail to show up to a practice, or you just,

did you, were you disciplined for something very early in your time in Edmonton? Yeah, I was living at home my first year pro and punctuality at that time of my life was probably wasn't my best asset. But this one was actually a harm. You were super punctual today. Whatever lessons learned, lessons learned is taken a while. But I was living at home and my mom was driving. We were leaving on an extended road trip. And so I packed my bag and my mom was driving we were leaving on an extended road trip and so I packed my bag and my mom was driving me to the airport and she asked you know because back then there was two airports in Edmonton there was a downtown airport and there was went out and the suburbs the international airport and I told her that we were coming back into the municipal airport. For whatever reason we

just didn't think about it we drove to the municipal airport when. When I got out of the car and she dropped me off, this is back in the day with no cell phones or anything. I looked around and normally you see all the guys in trench coats and their bags and everybody huddled together, waiting on their tickets and I didn't see any kind of sign that you'd normally see. So my heart started beating a little quicker

and sure enough, I looked at the itinerary and we were leaving to Detroit from Emton International. So my heart sank, I quickly jumped in a, actually I went and phoned on a pay phone and phoned the the oil or office in this secretary, he said, no problem, Mark, there'll be a ticket waiting for you at the counter

at the air counter, the counter. So when I got to in a taxi and got out to the international, I went up to Datsun, got my ticket, except it wasn't going to Detroit. It was going to Houston. I was being sent down to the, oh my god, to the farm team to teach me a lesson. So that was a tough moment for me at that time knowing that I was, I missed a flight and was being sent to our farm team. I spent two weeks down there played five games and they called me back up thankfully, but that was not a fun experience. But that must have had that must have left an impression. I mean, that's a pretty harsh lesson Well, you think it would have but there was a couple other ones along the way that had to cement the lesson

But what you realize is that when you're playing on a team and you're in a team format, nothing is about you as an individual. It's all about what's best for the team and your time is not your own. It's a team's time and you have to be respectful of that. So there was a lot of lessons for me growing up as a young adult in a professional environment that doesn't always happen, but when you turn professional 18 years old, you grew up quickly. In those days, I mean, even by today's standards, I mean, Grestki was tiny.

How explicit was it that someone on that team or some group of guys on that team needed to make sure that he didn't get hurt? Well, back then, that's where the game was played anyways. I mean, it was a completely different set of rules of what was acceptable behavior and a national hockey league. It was tough hockey. Just not long before that, there was still bench clearing brawls during the game. I remember in the WHA my last year as a 17 year old having three bench clearing brawls

in one game. Insane and big, big, tough guys I'm looking up to. So yeah, I think every team had a lot of muscle under teams and everybody had to stick up for each other. You had to be able to count on your teammates for protection. Everybody had to be a cohesive unit and everybody had the answer to bell for the protection of the entirety of the team, not to mention something of Wayne's caliber because he was obviously targeted in many different ways.

And we had to be there to help him get through an 82 games schedule. So let's fast forward to your first Stanley Cup final, 83 against the Islanders. The Islanders have won three consecutive Stanley cups right now. Mike Bosse, Brian Trocce, Billy Smith, who I hated. If you're on another's fan, you hated Billy Smith, right? And it's now, basically, you guys are going to try to stop their fourth consecutive Stanley Cup. How well do you remember that series? I remember every series I ever played, but that went in particular because how much respect we had for the honors and don't forget two years before that we had taken them to six games. And we didn't even know what we're doing back then.

We were just doing it on sheer talent and adrenaline and youthful exuberance. And at that point, I mean, the average age of the Edmonton Oilers is probably 22, 23, right? Well, we had some new veterans that mixed in with some of our young guys. So there was a good mix of vets and some young guys, but we didn't have as much talent then as we ended up having the first year, we won, but we still had a good team. And of course, any team with Wayne on it was a X factor. So you make it to the finals. And I don't remember what the So you make it to the finals,

and I don't remember what the odds makers said going into that finals, but I certainly remember as a kid, it was like the oilers are definitely gonna win this. And we still good about it. But we suffered some painful losses on our way to that first time, it kept final. You know, losing to LA, being up five, nothing

in the deciding game. There was a lot of painful lessons along the way of what it took to win, and we were on the trajectory, and we were taking those defeats and those failures, and really implementing into our game. And so by the time we got to the Stanley Cup Final, we felt pretty good about our game. We didn't realize how much of a cohesive unit, the islanders had become by winning three straights down the Cubs. There was a huge disparity about where they were as a team and how they played as a team compared to where we were. It was not even in the same league and And they pretty much dismantled us,

even with the great Gretzky. They dismantled us in four games. And that was a real eye opener for us that if we're gonna take this to the next level there, we have to figure out, first of all, how to play much better defensive hockey and then be able to recognize what teams are trying to do to us and then be able to counterbalance that very

quickly in-game and make in-game changes and alterations to the style of play we're playing. So it became a real chess game after that for us. We realized we were playing checkers and they were playing chess and we had a lot of catching up to do in that regard. Do you remember leaving the arena on the night of the day one the cup? Yeah, that's a much often told story. I mean, you can only imagine nowadays a team winning four straight Stanley cups and the told that would take on a team not only as a team, but on every individual. And we did, we walked by their dressing room and expecting a big celebratory

their dressing room and expecting a big celebratory champagne fest. And most of them were just sitting around quietly around their stalls by this time with ice packs on their bodies. And that told us that we weren't paying the price that we needed to in order to win a Stanley Cup. So a lot of a lot of lessons, a lot of lessons leaving that rank that night in that playoff series there that we came back the next year and started implementing very early on in training camp. You talk about like any professional sport, but like Tatehaki for example, there's 21 teams, well, 20 of them end the season as losers, right?

I mean, it's just, you know, there's only one team that's gonna win the Stanley Cup. So there's 20 teams that either don't make the playoffs, get booted out earlier, or like the Oilers did in that case, get booted out at the very last moment. But it would seem to me that losing in the way that you guys did and for straight, as you said, just getting your ass is handed to you makes that a very long summer. I'm sure there's a part of it that just cannot wait to come back.

Well, we didn't see it coming because we had actually taken them to six games two years. That's right. And so we felt good about the matchups and we felt and we knew what we're getting into. We knew the players. It wasn't like they surprised us from a player standpoint. But what they really surprised us with for with is how they're able to take our strengths away and then expose our weaknesses and pretty much completely take us off our game and a game

that we like to play. They never allowed us to get into our rhythm and that high pace, high tempo game that we were so used to and custom to playing. And we realized that we're gonna be the challengers there. We had to beat them in the streets in the alleys and eventually we're able to do that the next time around but what did Glenn say there say after that fourth game do you remember what was

said in the locker room when you guys lost at that time not much has said it's a long year everybody's nerves are pretty fragile everybody's emotions are high it's not really the time to start kind of dissecting what had happened I think we all kind of had to live with it ourselves throughout the summer and then come back and start to address it. And that's what we did. Everybody's credit. They came back with even more vigor and determination to get it to the next level and sure enough, we were able to. And it's kind of amazing. So the next season 83 84 you guys face the Islanders again in the final. And now it's there. They're going for five consecutive Stanley cups. And it was easy for them. They had to win an amazing series that gets Pittsburgh and scored

an over game seven over time to get there. So you can imagine it's amazing actually to this day. It's incredible that they made it to, we won five cups in seven years, but to win five straight is incredible. So I think I have a good understanding of what it took on you as a physically, as a person, but also as a team. And sure enough, there were you, they were again. Now, if I recall, you guys won game one, close.

They won game two, not close. It was kind of a blowout game too. It took it to us pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. Two. Yep. And then you won the next three.

And it was I always thought like I just what do you remember about the psychology of those last three games? Because that that was the passing of the baton. That was one dynasty to the next. It was to this day was so amazing to see that team hang on to that championship banner and how hard they fought to really inquisit. You would think at some point, you know, we could have just wielded away from them that we couldn't, they would not relent their grasp on it.

And it was all we could do in that third game to win that third game. Once we won that third game, I think it kind of was the start of kind of the way in terror of them starting to kind of show. And then our confidence went this way and they were beaten up and tired. And then we were able to win the next games. Not easily, but pretty handily. But to this day, I give those guys so much credit because they would not let go of that mantle

of being Stanley Cup champions. And it was so much pride and hard work had gone into it there. And it was just, even as I think they knew in their hearts at their time and come, it was just devastating. I think they just were so devastated that they finally lost there.

But it was a great lesson in humility and sportsmanship and what a real pride a champion has to watch those guys go through that whole fifth year or trying to win this down the cup for five times a row. Now going into game five, when you guys are at home, if you win the game, you win the cup, what you go on to do, was there even a tiny bit of a thought in the back of your mind that not only could you guys win this thing tonight, which I guess there was that thought, but that you could be the MVP of the playoffs. Was that even something you imagined? Never even thought of that.

Every time we allowed ourselves the night before to think about maybe we might win the Stanley Cup, it just was over, wr was brought with fear of losing that game. And given him a chance to get back in the series, we were terrified of the Islanders. We knew how good a team they were, and even though they were banged up, we knew how dangerous they were. And we,

and if you lose game five, you're back to New York to play game six before you know it. Do it, game six and game seven. Yeah, yeah. You could be hosed if you lose that game. It was not a good thought going all the way back there for a number of reasons, but none more than, then we were terrified of getting this close and not finishing it off. Where does that first Stanley Cup, first of your six rank in terms of the emotion you felt

when that final buzzer went? Well, I get asked that question often about, you know, what was the best Stanley Cup? And I can only say that every Stanley Cup had so many of their own unique storylines because there's always different players and you obviously the first Stanley Cup growing up watching it being delivered to a team every year from the time I can remember watching TV to the time that I actually had a chance to do it. Our selves was a huge moment, both from every individual on the team and then collectively what we had gone through to get there.

So that was incredible. But then the next year, it was the same kind of feelings again because of how hard we had to work and different set of circumstance, different set of motivating factors that led into the team. And then the same thing happened all the rest of the time. And the next year was Pellie Lindbergh, right? That was the year you played, you faced Pellie Lindbergh, was in the 8485 Stanley Cup, right? It was the 84, it was the 85 Stanley Cup against Philadelphia.

You go from facing Billy Smith to Pellie Lindbergh. I mean, I guess that's why these teams make it to the Stanley Cup. I mean, these are. The Flyers had an amazing team. When you get to that point, I mean, obviously playing a team deservedly of being there. And nothing's going to be easy. And at this particular point, we were pretty confident and we knew how to win and we knew what it was going to be easy. And at this particular point, we were pretty confident. And we knew how to win and we knew what it was going to take. In order to win, we just needed to grow and execute. And we

felt that if we executed our best, we were a better team, but didn't make it any easier. So now you've won two Stanley cups by the 85 86 season Edmonton looks unstoppable. The team is now fully connected. I mean, you basically could have four or five, 50 goal scores on the ice at one time. In Grant Führer, you have my personal view, the greatest goalie that I've ever played the game.

Maybe not by the statistics, but in terms of like just pure big game acrobatics. It seems like there's no way you guys can't win a third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, Stanley Cup consecutively. And then you come up against your nemesis from the town next door, the Calgary Flames. And I, I admit, you know, by this point, I'm in seventh grade. So now I'm watching every minute of every game and studying every statistic, reading my Toronto Star newspaper, and it's just like I'm dissecting every detail of this. And I can't believe what's happening,

but all of a sudden, it's game seven against the Calgary Flames. Somehow, you guys have each one three games going into the final game in Northlands Coliseum. And I remember that night, having dinner, getting ready to watch the game and thinking, trying to paint a glass half full of you, which is, well, maybe Edmonton just needs, this was a good little wake-up call, and maybe they're getting a little too complacent going into this game, and I've never gone back and watched that game again.

So, I remember, I watched it in 1986. I've never seen it since. I don't know who you ever seen that game since. Did you ever watch it from start to finish? No. So if my memory serves me correctly, it's 2-2 in the third period. Is that, I couldn't even tell you exactly what the score I know was tied late in the game. Yeah, it's tied.

I think it's tied 1-1 or 2-2 or 3-3, but I think it was 2 one one or two two or three three, but I think it was two two in the third period Steve Smith behind the goal Has the puck he's going cross ice pass a Million times a game pass and it just didn't go in the right place and it hit the back of Grant Fures leg and In the net it goes and you guys are down three to two with less than a period to go. What do you remember about that moment? Oh, I just remember Calgary building a team

that could compete with us. A Smite the Vision back then was we ever seen to be able to get out of the Smite the Vision. Had a good chance of winning this down the cup. Winnipeg was a great team. Calgary was really amassing a great bunch of talent and putting a team together that believed they could beat us and they were tough all year long. So we knew once

we got into that series with them was going to be a tough series and it didn't surprise us at all that they were playing us every bit as hard and we're matching us in every bit of the game both physically and from a talent perspective and it got into that series where we knew it was going to be tough to your point. We're here. We are in game seven and that sport stuff happens. You know, when you're in the middle of it, when something like that happens, you got a shrugged off pretty quickly. We weren't able to rebound from it and score a tie and goal and end up winning the game. They beat us in that seven-th-game, but that sports things happen. There's so much about it to me, right?

Do you remember in 91 when the bills went to their first Super Bowl and at the very end of the game, Scott Norwood has to kick this field goal for them to beat the Giants and it misses. It goes wide. And he's, you know, on some level, this big scapegoat, and you sort of imagine, well, is that how Steve Smith felt, but, but a really critical analysis of that game, again, of the Giants versus the Bills, says, it's really not about Scott Norwood at all. If the Bills had played half as well in that game, as they'd been playing all the way

to the Super Bowl, they never would have been in a position where a last second field goal was necessary. And I think that was sort of my feeling of the whole thing with Steve Smith, which was sure it would be easy to sit here and beat this guy up, not you guys as his teammates. I never got the sense, you know, reading the newspapers that that was happening, but that the public could sort of beat this guy up for the own goal as they would call it in soccer. But it was like, look, that was just a symptom of there were seven games in this series, right? Normally good bounces, bad bounces over seven game series. They all equal out. So I would never blame anyone incident on winning or losing a seven game series. You know that whole game and the whole way it unfolded with Steve is we could do a whole podcast on the psychology of that alone.

It was an amazing time for all of us to, you know, just look at ourselves and the vulnerability that we all face in a team game and how much you require everybody to be in the moment and put the work in and trust and all the things that you talk about in order for a team to win a championship. And it could have been any one of us. And I think the compassion that everybody felt for Steve even drove our team closer together in some crazy ways. Again, you know, another tough lesson along the way, but things happen and that's what we took out of it is you can take nothing for granted in this game. As good as we were, as much as we expected to win ourselves, as much as everybody else, expected us to win, you can never take it for granted of exactly what's happening here. And so we just collected ourselves again and dusted ourselves off and came back

the year next year. And the next even more determined you play the flyers again. I find recall right next year exactly we play with Ron next all Ron next all so we play them the next year and we're able to Wayne was able to accept a Stanley Cup and first guy he handed to was Steve Smith. I mean, that's why sports is so important in everybody's lives because of transcends sports. It goes much deeper than sports, especially when you're playing on a team and doing the things that we were doing there.

It wasn't just about hockey. It wasn't just about shooting goals and scoring pucks and all the things you would think about it became much more about life and life lessons in order to sustain that kind of remarkable level of play for the rest. Did you know Gretzky was going to do that? Didn't surprise me when he did do it, you know, Wayne. I was always looking out for people around him, always had the ability to get outside himself and make sure everybody felt good about being on the team and part of the team and all the things you would expect from a leader. So it didn't really shock anybody that he was the first one that he had in the cup to us to you.

I remember that very clearly and I'm glad you brought it up, because I don't, I don't think I would have remembered to have brought it up, but I don't know. It just sort of warms your heart. I mean, you compare it to the most extreme grotesque example of the opposite, which is 1994, the World Cup, Andreas Eskibar scores on his own goal, and he ends up getting killed. I mean, he literally is murdered

in a parking lot of a bar. And here, Steve Smith, at least a year later, gets to hold the Stanley Cup. As part of any human development for him as a person and as a player, and what it did for him and his own confidence and his own self-esteem and his own career, I think, you know, those are the things that define you ultimately and stuff happens to everybody. But, you know, he was able to be strong enough to absorb the criticism that came along his way, strong enough to come back the next year and go through the process of getting back in that exact same position and then succeeding ultimately all the way through until we're able to win a Stanley Cup. I mean, that's what defines you,

not him shooting the puck in our own goal. What defines him is he absorbing that and having the strength to absorb it. And the infrastructure around him to help him absorb it. And I think that's what good organizations, good teams do. They help people grow, not only as athletes and hockey players, but as people, because you need people and you need good character people in order to win. So if you're just talking about developing athletes and hockey players and trying to win a Stanley Cup is just not going to happen. And do you see examples of that either in hockey today or in other sports then or now where you have all the talent in the world, but there's something lacking in the character of the team all the time. You see it all the time. When we were kids, we saw good teams that had infighting amongst each other in jealousy about who was playing and it just never dawned on us to ever think

that way. Let's reflect on that for a second, Mark, because the talent on that team was staggering. As we've discussed earlier, it would be very difficult to imagine in a free agency era like we have today where you could amass that much talent under one jersey. We could amass it, but then you couldn't have. You couldn't keep it.

Yeah, you couldn't have worked even. So again, maybe there were stories that you're not telling, but you don't get the sense that this is a team of pre-Madana's where everybody's sort of pissed that the other guy's getting more airtime and more attention. Well, it helps when you have the leadership that we had and it helps when you had the character that we had.

I mean, is part of it that Gratsky was so good that everybody was happy to acknowledge that this is our leader and this is the best player on our team and we're watching history right now. I mean, as you said, it was part of it, but it was also the way he included everybody. And it's crazy. And the stats that he was having, he had a way of making Dave Somenko feel like he was the most important guy on the team and the list that goes on.

And I think that in the end is really, we always talked about the stages going to be big enough for us all to stand on. There's not one or two of us going to be standing on the stage when we stand in the cup. The stage is big enough for everybody. So let's make everybody feel accountable and just make everybody feel important. And let's hold everybody accountable for the job that they have. And let's help them understand that even though on another team, they may be able to play a different role. But in this team, this is a role we need you to play and we need you to do the best of your ability. And anything less than 100% isn't going to cut it.

And together, we are able to help convince everybody that that was the path to success. And we never felt jealous of Wayne. We never felt that he shouldn't be on the ice at the end of the game when he already had four goals and four assists. We wanted him on the ice. We felt a part of his success. We felt that we enabled him and put him in position

to have the success that he did. So in a crazy way, we felt part of the reason why he was able to smash all those records. So it was really a team philosophy that we had that we're all in it together and you're right. I mean one year in the All-Star game we had 11 players off the event and all those dressed in the All-Star game and you would have think everybody would have been vying for Glenn Anderson never once what complained about not being on the front and he was a 50 goal score and he couldn't get on the first power play unit. Never once did he even think it was a problem.

Did Paul coffee almost score 50 goals one year? Yeah, scored 48 goals. I mean, a defenseman, a defenseman, he had under some points. I mean, it was, yeah. So everybody had a role. Kevin Low was an offensive defenseman.

He realized right away, we didn't need another Paul coffee. So he worked on becoming the league's best defensive defenseman. And that was where he got his pride of being able to shut the other team down. He knew that that was our best chance to win as if he and Lee Fogland could be the go-to guys to shut it down, late in the games. And so he took the pride to do that. And everybody on team did the same thing. When you look at the way the NHL is today, and again, we'll talk about the arc of your career, but the league you finished in is very different, very different style of play from the league

you started in. Could a team that played the way Edmonton played in the 80s? Could that type of a team be successful today in the league? Oh, yeah. You know, Edmonton was the first, I mean, Glenn say there took the European flavor that had infiltrated into the WHA with all the European players and all the Swedish players and Anders Hedberg and Ulf Nielsen and Bobby Hull and all these great European players that came over and then the Russians in 72 and the flavor that we got from that kind of that infiltrated into the WHA and Glenn really realized that

that was the wave, the next wave of the way hockey would be played. And so when we came into League of 1979-80, we were all really good skaters and the Glenn allowed us not to play. We called it, we called tabletop hockey, you know, those games that you'd play with your hands and the winger would go up and down, but that's all you could go. That was traditional NHL hockey. Next thing, you know, you know, the Oilers come in with all the talent and we winger go up and down, but that's all you could go. That was traditional NHL hockey. Next thing, the oiders come in with all the talent and we're all weaving and going over the ice

and creating havoc for most teams. So that style of play is basically a refined version of what's happening now. So to enhance your question, our style with Edmonton would have fit perfectly with the way that games being played now. It's amazing. So, even now one, it's sort of July of 1988, you've just won your fourth Stanley Cup in five years. When do you first hear any sort of inkling or rumor about the trade? There was some kind of rumblings towards the end of the season through the playoffs and

we didn't think much of it. How could they ever trade Wayne Greski? Nobody would even think about it. So we didn't really pay too much attention to it. We got wind of it, normally with the smoke, there's fires, they say there was becoming more talk about it. I was actually in the summertime playing golf and got the word that the trade had happened. And I was like, August, early August, my recollection were in there.

Who called you? I remember being playing golf and stopping at the halfway house and hearing about it on the radio that the trade had gone through. Nobody could still believe it. So until I got actually got the phone call from I think Wayne or somebody that then I realized that it actually had come true. What did you think at that moment? I mean, you're obviously thinking by this point, you've had now eight years to hone your own leadership skill. I mean, just listening to the way you talk about those eight years, you can see I can just hear you describing less and after less and after less and up and down, up and down, hard, you know, hard

lessons. So on the one hand, you still have a job to do. You became the captain of the Oilers that day, right? Basically de facto, even if they didn't put the sea on your jersey until a few months later. But it's got to be kind of heartbreaking too. I mean, Gretzky was probably your closest friend on that team as well. Well, it was devastating for everybody. It was certainly devastating for the players. We felt that we were only just beginning of what we could accomplish. We're all in the prime of our careers.

That's the part that's so hard to believe is you guys literally were right. That's your prime. You were not near the crest yet. No, we were right there in the sweet spot. So for the players is devastating for the fans and the people in Edmonton, it was devastating. It was just a really tough day for everybody. Did you talk to Peter Pocklington? No, no, I'd never talked to Peter about that. There was no need to. I mean, was there to say obviously the feelings everybody had were obvious. But to your point, when all the dust settled and the training camp came around,

you know, what were we going to do about it? You know, we realized that we had first of responsibility to each other in the room and we had a responsibility to the team as much as we were disappointed with a decision to do something like that. And then we had a responsibility to the fans and to the city. And so we just like again, collected ourselves again and came to training camp and tried to do the best we could throughout a tough year. Now in 88, 89, I'm blank and who won the cup that year? Was that Montreal? No, Calgary.

Oh, that's right. That's right. That's right. Calgary won another the draw 180 six. That's right. And of course, Montreal would go on to win in 93 after that amazing series with L.A. But then in 90, you guys make it back to the final. I guess you're playing the Bruins in the finals in 90. Yeah, right. Yeah. What does it feel like to go back to the Stanley Cup without Gratsky? And now you're the captain. I mean, you've always carried the expectations in many way. But now this is the captain didn't change much for me. I mean, I was already entrenched in most of players and team new me. So I didn't really have to change anything. Did you create a narrative? Like I can imagine,

it could very easily spiral out of control psychologically where you think well if we don't win now it somehow means that all those years we won it was only because of Wayne I mean did you did anyone even allow that it was true it was true one of the reasons why we well know those cups was because of Wayne but it was because of a lot of other guys too well to me that's the point of 1990, right? It's that you want to know how great the Oilers were. Yeah, they're the best team that probably ever laced up skates. And with Wayne Gratsky, if you never interrupted that team, they probably

would have won nine Stanley Cup. But we didn't look at as validation of how good we were. We weren't as hockey players because we won a 1990 without Wayne. It never even crossed our minds. In fact, the opposite, in fact, we were disappointed. Wayne wasn't won in 1990 without Wayne. Never even crossed our minds. In fact, the opposite, in fact, we were disappointed when Wayne wasn't there to share it with us because of all the great times we had had with him. So I don't think anybody on the team was looking for validation

that we couldn't win without Wayne. I just think when the training camp came along, like every other year, you set your sights on winning a Stanley Cup. And then you go through the whole journey all year long to win a Stanley Cup. And you go through the process of winning a Stanley Cup because now there's new players on the team and players that hadn't been before in that culture. And so you're trying to establish this culture with new players and you go through the whole

process. When ultimately we did win in 90, I don't think anybody felt like, all right, I will show everybody that it was more of that we were proud of the process that we had to go through with younger players and different players with a lot of the players that had been through the grind years prior. And we were able to elevate ourselves

and everybody else in order to make it happen. So there was never any validation from us that we were able to do without win. It was, we were way past that, in my opinion, as far as our own careers and our own thoughts of where we were and where we stood in the game and how we looked ourselves as winners and all that kind of things. It was a great victory. don't get me wrong. It was an amazing victory to bounce back and when you can't put it ahead of any of the other ones,

but it was just as satisfying to win that one as well. When did it start to look like, because your contract with Edmonton was through what, 92, or later, maybe even longer right? I can't remember signing a contract at some point. I can't even remember if I had contract left or I had a couple years left or no, I don't even know. I just knew it was over. When did you know it was over? When did you know you were leaving Edmonton? I knew it was over the last year I was there, which was 91, 1990, 1990, 91, 91. Yeah, a lot of changes. The team was breaking up, a lot of injuries.

It just felt different. Whatever reason we ended up losing to Minnesota, I think. You could just tell that that chapter is right. yeah, yeah. You could just tell that chapter and all our lies was over. And it was time to go do something different in a different place, different town. And you just know, you can just feel it. You can't explain it. Never even tried to figure out why or why felt that way.

It was just so evident to me that it was just time to go. Were you keeping this to yourself? Were you talking about us with your parents, other teammates? I mean, how were you processed? No, I didn't. It wasn't really that it was just time to go. Were you keeping this to yourself? Were you talking about us with your parents, other teammates? I mean, how were you processing this? No, I didn't. It wasn't really that I was talking about during the regular season because you're so focused in

on trying to win. And I had to hurt my leg that year and I missed some time and I think I missed like six weeks with a knee injury and came back early. And my knee was never really that great the rest of the year into the playoffs. When it was over at the end of the year and we had finally lost, we got to the semi-finals again which was amazing and it was over.

When the final game ended against Minnesota, it was like the book, it just took the two chapters and closed a book and it was over as quickly as that. Did you know where you'd end up? No idea. It hadn't even had the conversation with the Glenn or anybody. Hadn't even talked about it with anybody, but had to have that conversation. I don't even know when it was with Glenn at some point.

And he was great about it. What's it like to come to New York? Well, as I had mentioned earlier, I was into a lot of travel and, you know, I was 30 years old. I was looking for a new challenge, both professionally and personally.

And when he started looking at the choices from where I was in my own self-development, what an amazing. What mattered to you the most in that next chapter? Because lifestyle, opportunity, was it exciting? I have to win another cup or I want to be part of building a team. I was 30 years old, I was still part of building it. I was 30 years old I was still peak of my career. I was playing good hockey still. Yeah, no hockey wasn't over, but I just wanted to do it in a different

venue a different environment something completely different and then you just match it all up and New York New York's a pressure cooker, right? I mean, it's a this is in a sense that you know, the pin. I mean, New York's a pressure cooker, right? I mean, it's a, this is in a sense that, you know, the Rangers haven't won a cup since what, 50, 19, 20. Well, I thought I didn't care about that. No, 1940. They didn't want to have since 1940. I thought that wasn't a problem

because the pressure that wasn't Edmonton because it's such a small community and players can't really go anywhere. I mean, it's really a small community. I loved it. I'm from there. We embraced it. We didn't hide from it. We immersed ourselves in with the people and at restaurants and at bars and at parties and at fundraisers and at charity events. And we're part of everybody else. We've just, we've meshed just like everybody else those years in Emerton. So the pressure was always there with us. So when I come into New York, I didn't

think it would be a big problem. I quickly underestimated that impact because of the size and the pressure here in New York City, but it didn't bother me. I mean, it was something that I just really wanted to focus in on. Yeah, why do you think, because there are some people mark that just get crushed in that environment. I can only imagine what it would be like to be a professional athlete in New York where you've got the world watching you, right? And this is a city that can put more pressure on you than maybe even the country could like Canada.

Well, one lesson I learned very early on was from Wayne when he mentioned something that the everything he has is because of hockey. And he never jeopardized his performance with something that had to do with off the ice. So everything off the ice took a back seat for Wayne. Hockey was his primary focus. And so when I came to New York, I realized that I had to take that same philosophy in order to be successful here. And because of the distractions that are obviously abundant in a city like this.

And so my focus was purely on hockey and everything else that came along with it would take a secondary role if I was able to do it. And that sustained me well. And don't get me wrong. We had as much fun as anybody that's ever played in this city. But and from myself personally, my main focus was from seven to ten at night playing that game to be and making sure I was at the best my ability to do it. And I think that's one of the reasons why I was able to perform here with arguably one of the toughest cities to play in because of the distractions. That just made it more fun for me and more challenging

know all the things of being able to juggle that. And that's kind of the distractions. That just made it more fun for me. More challenging, all the things is being able to juggle that. And that's kind of the juice that I was looking for as a 30-year-old, coming off five Stanley Cups in seven years and feeling pretty good about my own game and excited about the living the city and try to be a part of a team that conquered at that time a 50-year drought or a 51-year drought.

What was it like when you showed up for training camp a part of a team that conquered at that time a 50-year drought or a 51-year drought. What was it like when you showed up for training camp in 92-93? Was it 92-92, I guess your first year? Well, I missed training camp because I didn't get signed until after the training camp had finished. I actually met the team in Montreal when the season was just getting going. And how were you received? Was it just incredible excitement on the part of the players or was there a bit of trepidation? I'm probably not the one to ask that, but and was just getting going. And how were you received? Was it just incredible excitement on the part of the players or was there a bit of trepidation? I'm probably not the one to ask that,

but I was excited. So I think the players were excited. I hope they were. I think they were. I remember the Rangers had in one and a bunch of all in a lot of years and we one end up winning that game. And it just seemed to start unfolding. I think that year we won the Presidents trophy. We missed the end-up winning that game. And it just seemed to start unfolding.

I think that year we won the President's trophy. We missed the playoffs next year and won the Stanley Cup of third year. So I wrote, we're right, we're all this huge rollercoaster of emotions through three years and saw the great side of New York all the way down to the depths of missing the playoffs and the coaches getting fired and taking the blame for the whole debacle and then all of a sudden, right, just being up the third year to winning a Stanley Cup. It was an amazing rollercoaster.

Maybe one of the reasons why it made the experience so much more powerful is that I was able to see both the good and the bad of an athlete in New York and it wasn't easy when we didn't. Well, let's start. Let's start with the bad. So 92 93, you guys don't make the playoffs. What, what is that like compared to other pain you can experience as an athlete. For example, the year you guys get swept by the islanders or the year you guys lose to the flames. Like how does it compare to say you don't make

the playoffs in the city? Well, I think the year that we won the president's trophy, it gave me enough time to realize the importance of the Rangers in this community and the generations of fans that had supported this franchise for so long. And so by the second year, I was fully aware of the impact that the Rangers have in this town in this area. And then to go from the disappointing playoffs obviously in failing again, which always seemed to happen to the Rangers, but having a great regular season. So that was kind of like a little bit of a trade-off to the next year, just not having a good year. And what do you think was wrong that year?

Not injuries. Yeah, there was a lot of things that that happened that didn't allow us to play as well as we should have. But anyways, I got to see the other side of the city and the pressures that can go against an athlete that's expected to bring a championship. Luckily, I guess I had enough experience to absorb it and articulated in my own mind and take the responsibility

and then have enough support around me to help get through it and then make the right decisions obviously the next year in order to allow us to get to this town in the cup. Before you get to the Stanley Cup, you got to get through your arch nemesis the New Jersey Devils. Well, we beat the islanders and the Devils that year. So it was a good hockey in this area, in the metro area there. So we started off with the Islanders and played Washington

and obviously the great series against the doubles. Let's talk about that end of that series. So you're down three games to two, correct? You now have to win the next two games and you make this bold promise, right? So you sort of follow in the lineage of Babe Ruth and Joe Naive met. Yeah. Wasn't thinking about that long at the time. So you sort of follow in the lineage of a Babe Ruth and Joe name it.

Wasn't thinking about that long at the time. I mean, did it occur to you what you were saying and how boldly you were to come? It only occurred to me what I was saying because I was trying to, as a captain, you're always monitoring your team's confidence level every day, not only during the playoffs, but every day you walk into the room, your spider senses are up and you're just ga everybody's emotional state, good, batter, and different. In that particular time, I was just trying to instill a confidence in the players. And our routine on that day was to kind of get on a bus and go gather on a bus and go to New Jersey, have a pregame skate in the morning, have lunch, have a rest, and then

go back to the day. So I knew everybody would be on the bus reading the morning papers because we had done it all year long. So I said, well, what a great idea to let the guys know that I believe we can win this. I wasn't even thinking about that it would be splashed across the papers. It was only supposed to be for our 20 guys on the bus. It wasn't supposed to be for 12 million New Yorkers and certainly the New Jersey Devils. But that particular point, it didn't really matter to me. I mean, you do anything you can to swing the momentum back into your favor.

And that's what I was trying to do is instill a confidence that we had displayed all year is that we could go in there and win game six. We had done it numerous times. It wasn't like we couldn't do it. We had to figure out a way to play better. We had to figure out a way to stop the momentum of the Devils and that's where the inspiration came from. So going into game seven, how do you feel? Well, we feel good. We feel good about winning game six. We feel good about going home for game seven. It's been a friendly place for us all year long.

We love playing in front of our home fans. There's nothing not to like about our position going into game seven other than the devils are a great hockey team and could play a spoiler very easily, which was terrifying. We knew in order to win game seven, we were going to have to earn it. They weren't going to roll over. They felt that they could win the game just as much as we did. And ultimately is one of the best series I've probably ever played in. Was it game seven that you got the hat trick? Game six. It was game six. You got the hat trick to win the game to come back. What was the score of game seven? Two, three, two, two, one, one, the great, the great, the great Matil goal and overtime. Yeah. So now you're back in the Stanley Cup finals. Before we get to that, I want to go back to something you said a moment ago, because it honestly, like the way you

articulated it, I've heard great CEOs say the same thing, right, which is the job of a great CEO is to monitor the confidence of the team is to boost morale is to monitor the confidence of the team, is to boost morale, is to provide leadership in a meaningful way, not just a sort of hollow way. I want to kind of understand how these things developed in you, like when did it become apparent to you that, like what you did mattered more than just how you played on the ice what you said mattered how you spoke in the locker room mattered like what was the evolution of that from a 17 year old punk who can't even get to the right airport to the guy who on the eve of game six is calling a shot heard around the world guaranteeing victory. calling a shot heard around the world, that guaranteeing victory.

Yeah, a good question. I think it really stems back when I was all the lessons that I had from a father who was a hockey player, who was a team player, who was a tough defenseman, who protected his teammates, and knew the value of a team in every sense, for protection, for success, for individual accomplishments. He really understood what it meant to be a team player. Then I'm a stickboy for my brother's junior

team when I'm 14 years old, actually 12 to 14. I got to see my dad coach and how he treated his players and how he talked to his players and how he motivated the team and how he brought the team together and how he made everybody his players and how he motivated the team and how he brought the team together and how he made everybody feel comfortable and accountable and important and valued. He just see the power of what a team can do when they are completely synced and linked together. Without ego and without all the things that can undermine any team and any sport. without all the things that can undermine any team and any sport. And then get to a professional level as a young guy just trying to get my own footing as a professional,

but still seeing and understanding of all the things that I've learned all along the way, and then seeing it play out in different formats, and sometimes positively and sometimes very negatively. And so you start to realize that Jesus, some of the things that you know are actually really good and smart and healthy and productive and this thing and the way

that this is happening is very toxic and detrimental and not good for anybody. And so you just start kind of, like I said earlier, you just start building the confidence of what you're doing not only as an individual, but what you're trying to do as a team and how you're carrying yourself on the team and the decisions that you're making for the team as an individual and And it just starts to come together and then you start to see other players and other great leaders and here about other great events and and it just starts to accumulate over time.

Until you're finally put into position to have to pull the lever on some of the things that you've learned at critical times and having the confidence that it's a right thing to do. And I think, you know, with any great leader, we'll tell you there that they'd, no great leader is, is mistake free. Every leader makes mistakes, but it's the equity that you've built up into the people that you are around that will forgive you for making an on a mistake that just didn't work out well. It was a calculated decision.

It didn't work out, but the players or the people aren't going to abandon you because of that mistake. They trust you. It was a bad decision. It didn't work out, but they still trust your vision and how you can get there. That's where we're all evolved into some seminal moments in my own career as a captain in the 1990 Stanley Cup run all the way into New York until we were able to win the Stanley Cup with a bunch of great character talented kids here in New York City.

You've obviously talked about the role that your dad had, that Wayne had, and probably some of the other guys you played with in Edmonton. How much of this was modeled for you by people not on your team? Were you able to look at opposing players and see some of these characteristics that would ultimately come to define your leadership? No question, both positively and negatively. We would watch other teams and good teams

be fighting with each other on the bench and yelling each other on the ice. As a leader on the opposing team, I'm using that as a galvanizing forest for our players to say, look at these guys. They don't even like each other. They don't even win. I'm using any tool I can to convince our guys that we can win no matter what it is. And so if I see a weak link like that, that's going to expose that. Anything, because it gets down to such small detail when two teams are so evenly matched, the smallest things matter. And you're always looking for that little bit of evidence, that little bit of self-doubt on the other team

or any kind of pressure cracks that are starting to happen and to use that for your own team to expose that. There's so many things that go along. And so you really start as you get older and you're in a different position of leadership, you're looking for to play the game within the game. And that's oftentimes were, you know, series and Stanley Cup are one in loss. If you can win the war of not only a attrition, but also the mental war that goes on against another team.

Of all the players you played against, but never with. So I know you played against Gretzky, but let's discount Gretzky and Curry who you played against eventually, but because you played with them. But if guys that you only played against, who did you respect the most? First as a player, but also as a leader. And you can think of those separately. You know, I was looking, I was looking the other day with my son, my younger son, about there was a wall somewhere of all the names and I looked at it and I was going, I played against every one of these players and go and I went back to some of these guys that were playing in the 60s that were still playing.

We're still playing at the end of the end of the very career. The big in the yours. Yeah. And then to evolve over four decades. So you can imagine a amount of players that I played against and with over 26, 26 years pro. You know, just off the top of my head, I just had so much respect before I was just a kid with Bobby Orr.

He was my favorite player. I loved the way Bobby played. I loved everything about him. I loved the way he dressed. I loved the way he looked and his equipment. So I had a lot of respect for him. I had a lot of respect for... When did you first meet Bobby Orr by the way? dressed, I love the way he's looked in his equipment, so I had a lot of respect for him. I had a lot of respect for... When did you first meet Bobby Orbe by the way?

Not too much later when I was already a pro. I didn't get a chance to meet Bobby as a young guy at all. I got a funny story for you, so when I was a kid, I had a Bobby Orr signed hockey stick on my wall. And it was like, you know, one of my prize possessions. I had your autograph, I had Gretzky's autograph, curry, fear. Like I had half the Euler's posters and stuff autographed,

and I had this Bobby or hockey stick autographed. As you know, being a good Canadian kid, all you're doing is playing ice hockey and street hockey every day. And so sure enough, I'm out there one day, and we're playing street hockey after school, and I break my stick. And I don't have another stick to play. And you know what I did.

It's like the worst thing I've ever done in my life. I go into my bedroom, I take that Bobby or a stick, which is way too big for me, I go and get a saw, I cut the top of it off, which is the part he'd signed, and I go back out and I just start playing with it. And all I've got left is the signed top end of a Bobby or stick and my dad comes home and somehow he had got me this stick, you know somehow. I mean, he wasn't pissed at me But you could just hell he was sort of like I don't think you're supposed to do that son

I mean, I was like, you know, I was probably like all for the love of the game 10 years old and I just came to this day I still think I cannot believe I saw that stick. You just said, Gila Flore as well. Now you did play against Gila Flore. Oh, I did. Of course. Yeah. But I always remember the great series against Boston, that rivalry. And when they had to go back to Boston and Mike Milbury said he wouldn't get out of their alive. And the

story goes out. Gila Flore was at the Boston Gardens at 2 in the afternoon in full equipment, smoke and cigarettes, and went out and scored a hat trick. When I heard that story, I said, wow, because I know what it was like going into the Boston Garden. So I can really appreciate performing under that kind of pressure back then. But loved the way he played, but there's so many players that I played against that. So we're ended up being not only great leaders, but great players, great people off the ice, great in their communities. And that's one of the, I think the assets of our game is, is really the people not only as

players, but what they've been able to do off the ice as well. I always felt like Eric Lindross was a player that never fully reached his potential. He was just always getting, you know, something about his style of play that lent itself to just him getting hurt too many times. Yeah, it's health and it's not only injuries, but just health in so many different ways in that allow a player to do what you're talking about and have an extended career. I think what Eric played 12 years or when he first came to League looked like he could play till he was 100. Well, do you remember before, so the year he was playing for the Oshawa Generals and

he was going to get drafted and it was really clear Quebec was going to draft him. I mean, this was non-negotiable and he kept signaling, guys, I'm not playing for Quebec, so don't bother drafting. He betrayed me, he betrayed me, But they don't. But I think Sports Illustrator came out with an article that said, this kid is Lemieux, Gretzky, and Messier melded into one. And I remember thinking, guys, are you freaking kidding me? Like, how much pressure could you put on a kid, like, taking the three greatest players in the NHL and telling me that this kid in junior A is going to be the next time. And I grew up in Toronto. So a lot of the kids I went to school with actually played with Eric during like the junior, junior, like MTHL, you know, AAA, like through probably

fourth grade before Eric really started to leapfrog ahead. So you knew he was great. There was no question. But I thought that was like, that was a bit much pressure to put on a kid I thought. Yeah, I think so too. You know, he was, Kure got cut short. The fact about the NHL, there's a lot of great players. There's a lot of great players and to elevate your self to the likes of Lemieux and Gratsky.

Those are pretty lofty standards. Well, and as you said, there's the longevity thing. I mean, I still can't believe you played 25 years. Like, in fact, I gotta be honest with you. I never had done the math until I was preparing for us to sit down and talk today. Like, it was really on the last couple of weeks that I did that actual math.

Cause I just didn't realize it was that long. And in fact, I forgot that Gretzky had played a full 20 years. Like, that just doesn't make had played a full 20 years. That just doesn't make sense in a sport like hockey. That's the exception, not the rule. You really, especially the way you played, because you played such a physical game. What's the worst injury you've sustained? I got so lucky. I might have both knees, ligament MCLs probably four times in each knee. I had arthroscopic surgery on my shoulder towards my second last year.

How many concussions that you have? Hard to count. Yeah, they just don't really keep track of them the same way. They don't really keep track of multiple concussions, but didn't really keep track. And back then you made sure you woke your room made up a couple times if you did get a bump on the head, make sure you woke up. You know, we just didn't know, we just didn't have the knowledge of of what the concussions were and the impact that they had. So it was completely different back then.

What was the hardest part about retiring? For me, I didn't really have a hard time retiring, if you can believe it. Just said like I'd recognize it was kind of finished in Edmonton. I kind of recognize that, well, it's funny. I asked my trainer, I said, okay, if I train every day, am I going to be able to at 44? Am I going to be able to compete with the younger guys on that level? And he goes, no, because you're going to need more work to rest. Your recovery is not there. So every time I work out, I need three days of rest or whatever it is. And so it's diminishing returns over 82 games.

But do you ever think, like, imagine there's a model, I've often thought about this and it's, you know, you have to change the economics of the sport, but it's like you take a guy like you, who's now in his early 40s and you say, look, we're gonna reduce the amount you're getting paid, but you're only gonna pay it, play every third game. You know, could a roster support that because in many ways, what you're bringing

from a leadership and an experience and an intelligence standpoint is not going down. It's only going up, but you just, as you said, you don't have the reps in you. You can't practice and play with 22-year-olds. Yeah, I personally probably wouldn't have liked that. I mean, I love playing every day. I love being in the pit, I love being in the trenches. That wouldn't have worked for me.

I didn't. You couldn't have sat on the bench for two out of every three games. I just don't think you have the equity with the players. I think you can do that and be a great resource. And you can actually play and it would be for some people. But I think to be in a big leadership role, I think one of the parts of being in a leadership role is being, is actually a hurt with everybody example and being in those tough skates and being those tough, it's not the worst philosophy. And so I just knew that if I couldn't do that,

then what else do I have left to play for? I didn't want to play for money. I didn't want to play for anything, either. I didn't care if I was eight games behind Gordy Howe. I didn't want to play for money. I didn't want to play for anything, although I didn't care if I was eight games behind Gordy Howe. I didn't mean anything to me. Yeah, that was another stat that I had totally forgotten, which was, so you retire as the second leading score of all time. So, you know, somehow these two little kids that showed up from the WHO. No, I was

a, I retired as a leading scorer of mere mortals. That's the way. That's right. You're leading scorer all the time. He doesn't count. He doesn't count. He's way easier. So I was a little, when I retired, now I'm, I'm third of the mere mortals that played the game. But what's amazing is what you just alluded to a second ago. You were only what, eight games behind Gordy Howe for... I never played anything. Play another year, play another year. You know, you're eight games behind Gordy Howe.

I said, I never played the game ever. You never played for a record. Never played for a stat. Never played for any kind of goal record, any kind of assist record, any kind of a game record. I never played for any of that. Wasn't even on my radar. When I first came in the league, I was just trying to make the NHL.

I never thought I would even be in a position to hold any record. And so it wasn't even in my DNA as a player to even consider something like that. And all the things that came along were just by Quintets and playing a certain amount of time, but feeling a part of the whole journey with the team. So to come back and play in a promotional tour, to be gory how, I mean, what was that going to define me with it? It didn't mean anything to me.

That's telling, though, Mark. I think there are a lot of players who would have come back for another year or half a year, or as you said, kind of just the record tour. I think a lot of people would. But I think in some ways, I think the fact that you didn't, the fact that you finish eight games behind, one of the most storied records in sports, says more than if you had the record.

Maybe, I guess that's for other people to decide. For me, I was so focused in on being a team player and trying to win us down a cup every year. So that was the only thing that kind of motivated me and finding that whole chemistry within a different team every year and it all came in different ways and different teams were motivated for different reasons, but finding that motivating, galvanizing factor every year that we could all rally around was the juice that kept me playing for 25 years. If a young player comes up to you today and says, I'm starting my career,

I mean, was there a moment when you were just so nervous that you, you know, going into a game or going into a series or going into a tryout or something. And you actually had to will yourself off the ledge because obviously stress and anxiety and nerves are a very positive thing. I mean, you can totally harness those things. But when they go too far, they can be crippling. Do you recall a time when you actually were on that edge and you had to pull yourself back from the sort of destructive to the constructive utilization of that force. Oh, that's such a great point.

And the fear factor of failure is always evident. You know, we were terrified of losing in Emton all the time. As good as we looked from the outside, I can only imagine inside we were terrified of not losing. And probably more terrified of underachieving, which is worse than anything, is being an underachiever. So how do you get yourself that you're able to be ready enough and relax enough to be able to execute in the most important situations? And I think it really gets back to what we talked about earlier, you know, your preparation, trusting in the preparation, trusting in the evolution of

the team over the course of the season and repetitive scenarios there that you know you can do and you can trust yourself and you got trust in your teammates that they're going to be in the right position because it's this whole choreographed ballet that's happening on the ice at 40 miles an hour with 24 switch blades, trailing 60 miles an hour and dangerous. But everybody's gotta be in the right position at the right time in order to make that

queues of systems work. So I've felt it myself, but when you do fail there, and because you're not always gonna play your best when the chips are on the line, you're all gonna fail, you're all gonna make mistakes, you're all gonna be the guy that gives a puck away to lose the game and just being able to be strong enough to have an unwavering self-belief in who you are

and what you're trying to achieve. And a lot of that comes from the preparation and the commitment that you put into the game. So there's been a lot of questionable moments along the 26 years where you dealt yourself. And I remember standing on my first time, they kept final along the blue line in Edmonton and being so amped up that when the anthem finished, my whole right side of my eye got blurry. and I played about 20 seconds of the first shift and then went off to the dressing room. I had to lay on the training room table for five

minutes in order to just get vision back. Whatever happened just way too amped up, way too ready to go, way too excited and that was a great lesson as well because when I looked over at the islanders there were just kind of in a nice groove and a nice relaxed state and so how do you marry that with too much, not enough and that perfect sublime state. And then of course a lot of philosophy and some other things that I worked on in my career from self-awareness standpoint and things like that. Say a bit more about that. You live a different life than most people can relate to, right? I mean, most people finish high school, get a job, or go to college, or do whatever, but

you were sort of thrust into a limelight from a very young age. You had to make a bunch of mistakes in front of a bunch of people. And before you know it, you're sort of 44 years old or whatever you were, 43 when you retired. I want to talk a little bit more about retirement and the next phase of your life. But I want to know a little bit about how you, like, what kind of introspection and self-reflection

were you able to do as an athlete or was that mostly something that came after? No, I think it was an evolution all the way through. I became curious why to start with, why Wayne was the best hockey player in the world. And so I started watching him. I started watching him in practice, and his practice habits, and what he didn't practice

to become a better player, and how he was able to sauce for the puck on his forehand and backhand, and where he would go in certain situations and all that. And then I, so if you're curious enough, there's a lot of answers out there. How to become a better player, both physically and emotionally and tactically and all the things that you would think of. Because you don't rep your, the way you represent yourself, you're just an average guy, right?

Like you're not a guy that had this God-given gift. Now, of course, you obviously have great natural athletic talent, but you're this guy who, as you tell the story, no one could have predicted on your first day in the NHL. You are going to be the second leading score of all time or the first amongst mortals. Whereas in the case of Gretzky, if someone said that on day one, it was believable. It was more evidence, and that's why it's so amazing that you are patient with, and there's certain things that you look for in athletes. If you had any sport, not necessarily when they're younger, but in how they can change and evolve. So there would have been no evidence up until I even turned pro that would have happened.

So I think that, yes, you are given God-given talent. It has to be nurtured and honed. And then you have to be willing to absorb a lot of information in order to become a good pro and a good teammate. And then, you know, how do you elevate your own game from a fourth line fighter to a second line, left-winger to a second line sentiment to a first line sentiment through the course of a career, right? But yes, I think curiosity won. I felt that there was a way that I didn't believe in the zone. Hmm, say more about that.

I didn't believe in that it was just by chance that a guy would have a good game. You would hear these people talking, well, wow, it's really in the zone tonight. I don't know why. I don't know what happened. Couldn't feel my legs. I could skate all day, never got tired. The goal looked like a soccer net.

You know, didn't feel like anybody else's on, you know. And you never once felt that. I felt it, but I didn't think it was just because it just was a chance. You didn't think it was just because, it just was a chance. You didn't think it was just a chance. You think that something happened along the way in order for that to manifest itself at that particular time.

So I started asking questions about, you know, okay, well, what is that? I mean, there's a bigger, something bigger. Something bigger. What is your take? Well, I think it's a level of concentration that doesn't get discovered. You you know it's a whole not that it's another whole nother podcast but i just think it's a it's a deep level of concentration that you're not even aware of that's mixed with preparation that's with mixed with belief

that's mixed with repetition of the skill. All of that comes together at a certain time. And I think that in, to just very quickly, I just think that in a professional world, there's a lot of external things that go on outside the game that can be conflicting and be distracting and take away energies from you Not only physically, but also emotionally And if in a perfect world you have everything in your personal life in complete order You have one thing to think about on a big game like a game 7 or whatever it is

So when you guys were like literally these 23 year old kids in this town called Edmonton, do you think you were able to take it more seriously as a combination of things? One, it's not New York City, right? So you're not or Montreal or Toronto where the pressure is unbelievable. It was unbelievable in Edmonton too, but almost a result of how well you have much to potentially you guys brought to it. And then secondly, you have this thing around Gretzky, which is you all figure out very quickly, you are in the presence of greatness. And this is a once in a lifetime opportunity. You are a piece of history in many ways. Do you think that somehow that all galvanized to produce this

environment you're describing, which is you could focus so much on your unhoning your craft at a time when it could have been easy to have put 80% of that effort in, but 20% of that could have been put elsewhere. I think again, it doesn't just happen overnight. I think this is something that if you're interested in it takes a long time to get there. And I think that there are a lot of questions that need to be answered along the way of anyone's career. You know, why am I here? What am I here for? You know, what are my intentions? What is the end game?

Am I being perceived by my teammates? How is the sporting hockey world perceive me? What am I doing off the ice to be a good citizen? What am I doing to contribute to the community? That doesn't happen when you're 18 years old. That doesn't happen when you're 20 years old. That happens over a duration of period as you evolve as a person. So for me, when I came to New York as 30 years old, and I had a lot of time for interspection to think about, you know, what I was needed to do in order to be successful as a player and all that.

Maybe if I came here at 22, it wouldn't have been the same result because I wasn't ready for it or mature enough to handle the external things around the city. Who knows? I just look at it, it's an evolution of anyone's. I think that the sport has the mirror, the maturity of anyone's and of those two things kind of keep going on a parallel track. Then you get into players like Tom Brady and players that are redefining their sport

and doing things that are considered unattainable, whether you're playing into your forties and still, you know, you know, it's quarterback, you know, I'm just using him as an example, but I think if you asked him, his own trajectory of when he first came out and got thrown in. Well, I think there's something else about, I don't know Tom Brady, but I would infer from the outside that there's something about Tom that's very similar to what you said earlier, which is I don't get the impression he's playing for another Super Bowl ring. Of course, he wants to win another Super Bowl ring, but that's not the reason he's playing. I get the sense he's playing because he believes he can continue to perfect his craft. And I suspect that that's what the greatest animal.

The winning is the end and that result of it. It's the way you can measure that. It's the way you can measure it. And of course, every time you come to training camp, you want to win. But I don't think you can just say you want to win. I think there's certain things, especially at his age, that he needs to do in order to be,

put himself in position to be efficient enough at that position in order to take his team to another. And so I think that's where that whole thing I'm talking about where sport and life finally come together at a certain age, and they parallel the tracks where you become more evolved as a person which only helps you in your sport because you have a better understanding

of who you are as a person and all the things that it takes to be successful from a physical standpoint and the training and then the involvement of the knowledge of the game and the experiences that you had. So it's quite remarkable. And it's one of the things that I'm sure he would tell you because I can say for myself is one of the things that keeps you in the game at that later stage of the year is honing that walking on that razor's edge that very few people have done and try to do something that has never been done before. You look like you're still in great shape. What do you do today for exercise? How do you stay in shape? A little bit of everything. Obviously weightlifting is an important cardio and I can get cardio from

many different, I was never runner but I ran the New York City marathon back, I guess, 2011, 10 year anniversary of 9-11. Are you deliberate about it or sometimes professional athletes when they're done, they're done with structure. They've spent their whole lives being very structured in doing this, doing this, being here at this time, being in this training camp, eating this way, doing this, doing that. And then when they're done, it's like, look, I'm going to work out, but I don't want to program. I just want to do what I feel like doing. I mean, where are you sort of on that spectrum?

Yeah, I'd say that shortly after I retired, I was doing some other stuff and I kept waiting for that, because I used to give myself three hours to work out when I was training. You know, it'd take me a minute to get in the gym and it'd take me, you know, 10, 15 minutes to get myself with a deep enough concentration to be able to actually put the work into that I wouldn't need. I didn't need three hours to actually physically work out, but I'd to get myself mentally ready to work out. And then when I retired, I kept waiting for that three hour window to come along and never came along. Never came along because of the kids and all that kind of stuff.

So I'm kind of pretty looser about what I did find though is that I feel better when I work out. I physically feel more awake. I feel more alive. I feel more energized, more energy, fresher. When I guess it's a problem, net result of doing it for so many years, that your body just becomes a cousin to it and you feel sharper. So, you know, when I did retire, I wouldn't work out all the time.

And it became apparent to me that I actually feel better when I get some kind of work in. It doesn't have to be anything like I did when I was in the three hours in the gym and all that. But if it's a 20 minute cardio or if it's anything, yoga session. Or so I'm kind of resigned to the fact that if anybody's doing anything, I'll kind of jump in on it and try it. And obviously got a little bit of a routine to three, four days a week. But I'll try anything, do anything and just take to kind of keep the body moving. How often do you get back on skates?

Playing some charity events every once in a while. I'm on the ice quite a bit because I coached my son's team, so I'm on the ice. I use actually a friend's rink up in wire mill, Paul Orland, the great guy. He's got a little private rink there, so I go there and just do some cardio. You'll just get out there and skate. I'll just get up there and just do skating exercises because it's just so good for your core and for your, and you don't have the impact. And you don't have the impact of running and all that. And so it's just, and it just so much development

of your core and your legs and all that. So keep that strong. How fast can you skate relative to your 28 year old self? What percent? Well, what you realize is that you have such massive leg power when you're playing and when you stop that atrophys pretty quickly. So if I had to say, put a percentage on it. Yeah, like I'm curious as to how far you would fall in 20 years.

I would say I had 10% of what I had. Wait, wait, 10% less? No, overall. You're that far from where you were 20 years ago. I would say so. But my guess is, if you guys... I'm still in good shape. I can still skate. But if you get back on the ice with a bunch of 40-year-old dudes, I bet you skate circles around them, right? Depends on what you're skating. I mean, if I took six months and skated and started to develop some of the muscles that

you really need to skate and for your edging and all that. Yeah, maybe, but you know, I'm 58. So, you know, it's just atrophy. Unless you skate every day, those muscles atrophy, you know, your growings and your hip flexors and your quads and ham, I mean, that whole muscle group of your legs. And so that's just straight away speed skating around circles. What about the ability to change direction? Is that even more lost?

Is that even more lost? It's lost because you instantly become fatigued because you don't have the muscle part there. So it's just amazing actually. In fact, it wasn't, it was about two years after I retired and I put my equipment on to do something. And I felt like I didn't have my, I felt like I had to, you, I felt like I had fun.

You felt like you were wearing someone else's equipment because my legs were about twice the size and my pants fit different. And all of a sudden my legs were in the pants that I had retired with and it felt like they were just swimming on me just because of the atrophy. What are you way now? Way about two 15.

Which is not that far from what you played at. I played right there at two fifteen or so. Just distributed. You think it's just distributed differently. Yeah, so you just don't have the muscle mass. You lose muscle mass just because of age, but you also lose muscle mass. If you're not using it. Well, I mean, you can't just, I mean, it's amazing how much power it takes to play hockey.

From a leg standpoint and a cardiovascular standpoint, it's incredible. And you know, when you do it from the time you're young boy to the time you're 40 something and you retire, you don't even think about it because you can get on the ice and not even think about it. What does your son think about hockey? The one that you coach? He's how well, well, lines 30, older boy it's 32

and he coaches hockey. He's made a career of coaching kids up in Washington, the little caps, Douglas loves hockey. He's 16, playing midget hockey. That's the one you coach. Yeah. Yeah. Does he want to play pro? I think you would love to play pro.

Is it hard? How do you feel about letting him be his own guy? Oh, I think he completely needs to go on that journey of self-exploration to see what he can extract from himself. Does he ask you about it? Oh, we talk often about hockey. I think he knows what's required even before whether or not you have the talent. It's an interesting journey for him to see where he can take it. Ultimately, that will be defined by him and not by me. It's got to be interesting. It's got interesting journey for him to see where he can take it. Ultimately, that will be defined by him and not by me. It's got to be interesting.

It's got to be a mixed bag of emotions for you to watch your kids play this game and know that I know enough about you to know that all you really care about is you just want your kids to be happy. You want your kids to sort of find their own way. You want to stay out of their way enough, but also be there enough to answer a question and support them. I think it's just harder when your dad is Mark Messier to find that balance. I mean, your dad was such an important part of your development. Is it sort of like you want to be able to provide exactly what your dad did? No more, no less,

is that sort of how you think about it? No, there's no question being the son of any professional player and any sport is going to come with some baggage for the kids Whether they feel it as they're expected to be a great player because their dad was and And all the things that go along with it ultimately the reason why sports in my opinion is such a great Thing for all kids is it it does take you on that self-journey of self-awareness and what you want to do And are you able to do and are you able to do and are you able to put the discipline in and the time in and that's required to be the best you can be.

It doesn't matter how good everybody else is. What do you have and are you willing to extract every ounce of talent and work out of your own body? That ultimately, no matter how far you take it, will serve you well in wherever you land, whether it's in a sport or in business or whatever. That kind of journey can only be beneficial for all kids and certainly for my kids as well. And I think there's something else about team sports, which is all the stuff you've

alluded to around, this type of leadership, and the difference between, I was love that movie Miracle, so I thought it did such a great job of showing how at an individual level that team was not nearly as talented as the Soviets, right? But on that one moment, in that tournament, everything that they had done under her brook sort of came together, and they outplayed the best team in the world as a team, not as a collection of individuals. And so much of what you talk about is really, you've repeatedly emphasized this importance of both leadership and team play and the dynamics of the team. And again, I think you've paid a lot of that tribute both to your dad and to Gretzky as being two great a lot of that tribute both to your dad and to Gretzky as being

two great role models of that. And many more, but yeah, there's a lot of information out there for any young aspiring sportsmen, sportswoman, girl, boy, no matter what they're dance, music, acting, hockey, baseball, football, whatever it is, if you're interested, there's a lot to is if you're interested. There's a lot to learn If you're interested. Tell me about the Mark Messier foundation. What do you guys do? Well, when I first came to New York, it was really Important for me to entrench myself into the community the first charity I ever got involved with was the Alberta Lung Association when I first became a pro in in Edmonton and Glenn say there are codes there are really kind of emphasize

that we get out into the community and pick a charity and attach your name to it and help. The Alberta Lung Association was an incredible learning experience for me because it was all about the babies that were born premature and had unhealthy lungs and whatnot. Fast forward to coming to New York, the inundation of requests to get involved with some kind of charity in the city was overwhelming, so I had to figure out a charity to involve myself with and then help out as much as I could everywhere else. And that became the tomorrow's children fund at the Hackensack Medical University. And years after retirement, it became apparent that I could start my own foundation

and really kind of focus in on the things that inspired me the most. And that was giving back to in providing access and opportunity to kids that didn't have the means to do it like hockey in the city. So the Mark Messier Foundation is basically that. It's about creating access and opportunity in different areas of kids' lives, or that they would never have had the opportunity otherwise. And for different circumstances, whether it was financial or infrastructure not available or schoolastics or whatever. And so that's what we focused on. And it's spun out of the Kingsbridge National Ice Project that we're trying to build here in the city that would provide a lot more access and opportunities to kids to play hockey and the metropolitan area here with three

NHL teams. You would think we could do a better job of creating more access for kids to play a sport that's so much entrenched into this metropolitan area. It's hard to imagine you not living here, isn't it? You have so many tentacles in this New York area, business-wise, philanthropy-wise, family-wise, which is, again, I think for me, I always think of you as being from Edmonton, which of course you are from,

but you've probably lived almost as much of your life here as you have there, right? Well, that's close. I came here when I was just 30 and I'm 58 now, so it's been a, you know, I remember my first press conference saying I hope my second career is as good as my first. We weren't able to go as win as many championships here in New York, but we were able to win the one, but my experience here in New York has been incredible.

I think the thing that really drew me to come to New York was not only the challenge of breaking the 54-year-old drought of the Stanley Cup, but also immersing myself into a city of this magnitude and the culture and all the things that go along with it. That was very appealing to me and it didn't disappoint me in any way. I can't tell you how much I've enjoyed my time as a player and in retirement in this area and the people and the amount of experience that I've had with so many different types of people in the city.

It's interesting. I mean, the last thing I really want to talk about Mark is this idea where there just seem to be two types of athletes. There are those who retire, who can never sort of get over the fact that they're not still 28 years old, and that their glory is no longer going to be wed to that. And then there are another group of athletes who retire and move on and continue to like live life to the fullest with respect to whatever the next chapters of their lives fit.

And you're obviously in the latter category. I mean, you know, we could have in a whole other podcast talking about what you're doing in business today and all the things you're doing outside of hockey. Do you have a sense of why you're able to make that transition and when it was time to say goodbye, you said goodbye, and your identity doesn't have to be wrapped up in that and why others have such a difficult time doing that. What do you think defines that difference? I think you just nailed it. I think to put it very quickly, I think the thing is I didn't identify myself only as a

hockey player. I think that in order and for me to be able to do that I needed a good family around me and good people around you to remind you that there's a lot more to life than hockey. Although it's a huge part of my life from the time I was you know very young to the time I turned pro and this is one thing that I had to really focus in on when I was 18 because it requires all your attention to perform at your highest level, but it wasn't who I was as a person.

Big difference. And I think with good people around you to remind you of what's possible outside the game, you eventually realize that you do something that you love and it's the most amazing time of your life, but it's not going to define you in the end and I think those two things became very apparent to me, you know, sometimes in the middle of my career where there was just more to this then playing hockey and that's where it became so apparent that you are And that's where it became so apparent that you are an important part of any community that you play in.

And there are other things that are going on and the way you conduct yourself and how you give back and all the things that are so important to a professional athlete in order for him to do. And I think those are things that really kind of separate you from the player. And so when it's time to retire, yeah, I sure I miss the game, I love playing hockey. There's nothing better than playing hockey and being a part of a team, but I was able to walk away because I had a new family

and there was more to do in life in a different way that alleviates that need to go to the rink every day and have your ego boosted because of your playing on a professional hockey team. So I think that kind of really made it easy for me to retire and to kind of go on to the next phase of my life when I had 40 some years old. Now look at if I was 25 years old and forced to retire because of injury or something that would have been tough to retire. I know question, no question. So I'm only speaking for myself that I was, I fulfilled everything

you know, you know, 26 years pro 44, a young family. In my own mind, was there anything left to prove? You know, from a hockey standpoint, no, was there, is there a lot more to prove from a philanthropic standpoint? There's a lot more. It's amazing, Mark. Do you still keep in touch with any of the guys from Edmonton? I, everybody, everybody, yeah. We just had another guys from Edmonton? Everybody. Everybody. Yeah, we just had another reunion in Edmonton, not long ago. We had one here in New York.

And what's amazing about the city is that everybody seems to come through here at one point during the year. So being able to stay connected to a large portion of the guys on a fairly regular basis is quite easy. I would love to be a fly on the wall for one of those reunions, literally just sitting up there in a raft

or watching the greatest hockey team that ever laced up reminiscing about, gosh, what it's been now, 30 to 35 years ago. Well, the 85 team was voted the top team in the last 100 years. And so we had a reunion for that team in Edmonton, not Longo, and it was remarkable actually to get that team together and see everybody that some of the guys I hadn't seen, a lot of the guys I had, but just

to be able to get to your point, to get to the room and everybody sat in exact same seats on the bus on the way to the ring. It was just, did you guys get on the ice and skate? We never did. That would have been, we should have done that actually. We should have had some kind of, yeah, just some came at game a quick pickup or something like that. We should have done that. We both Andy and Grant there.

You had two goalies. Yeah, yeah. Oh, the whole team was there. Unbelievable. It was amazing actually. We should have done that. I'll remember that for the next one. You know, I got to meet Ronnie Lot recently, who was one of my favorite football players ever growing up. And we were, you know, after shooting the breeze for a bit, I said, you know, do you

guys ever get together and play a game of pick up football? You and Montana Rice and everybody goes, yeah, yeah, we did it actually kind of recently. And I said, what was it like? And he goes, it was awful. I mean, I hurt for like three days after. He's like, you know, Jerry was the only one who was really, really still in amazing shape. Which of course, if you look at Ronnie Lot, by the way, he looks just like you. He is the exact same weight that he played at.

So it's not like this guy got out of shape, but he's like, look, Jerry was still sort of, you know, really in shape, but it's the same idea, like to get that 49ers team of the 80s together and the others of the 80s. I mean, I don't know. There's something there's something very special about those. Well, I think it is. I think the connection that's so strong because you have such a deep respect for what you did together and the commitment that each individual put forward towards the common goal. I think that's where the gratitude comes in.

Do you think that it's just impossible to ever reproduce that again in the sense that like has money changed that? I mean back in the 80s, you guys just didn't get paid a fraction of what players get today. Do you think that has changed again? In order to win, you got to get there. Somehow or another, the team has a shorter window to do it, to bring it all together, but they have to get there on an emotional level in order to win. St. Louis did this year, you know, you look at them just before Christmas,

they weren't even into playoffs. Yeah, kind of an amazing turnaround. Amazing turnaround, but somehow or another, they were able to emotionally connect on a much deeper level than they had ever in the past. And it's without that. So yeah, I think the principles of winning are the same. You got a much shorter window to do it. It comes and goes for some organizations where they don't quite get there, but any team that actually wins will tell you

that the team connected in a way that they didn't probably feel possible at some point prior. Notwithstanding that your kids are still at a point where you don't want to be away from home, but fast forward a few years, your kids are all in college or doing their own thing. Would you want to coach in the NHL? It's hard to say. I obviously feel like I have a lot to offer any organization, any team because of my experiences

that would lend itself well to any part of the organization. Coaching is something that I enjoy and I don't think there's a big difference philosophically speaking coaching a 16-year-old team than coaching an NHL team because you do have to communicate the bench awareness. The things that come have to come naturally to some of that coaches and it doesn't come naturally to everybody. It just doesn't. I recognize that I do have a unique ability to coach and I think I get it from my father and to communicate. So it'll be interesting to see if that ever happens one day. and to communicate. So it'll be interesting to see if that ever happens one day.

And the last question, sort of out of your purview, but will Toronto ever win the stand? I'm asking seriously, like, I do, I think we think so. You know, the toughest part about our game is it is such a tough league. But the good news is that you can see a team like St. Louis, bring it together in a short period of time. I mean, they obviously had the pieces. They couldn't have won if they didn't have the pieces in order to do it. But somehow or another, they are able to galvanize, which in a way that they hadn't previously. And so when you look at the turnaround of teams that have gone on to to win this Stanley Cup in the last 10 years.

You look at LA when it's finishing eighth and winning this Stanley Cup. The league is structured now that every team has weaknesses. There's no perfect team out there right now. Every team has to decide where they're going to put their strengths and absorb the weaknesses because of the salary cap era. And what it does is it lends itself to a very competitive environment where it's a tough league. And, but it also gives a lot of teams, a lot of hope that it can win.

And I think it's good for the fans, it's good for the league, it's good for the players, it's good for the organizations. It's gonna be hard for someone to dominate, perhaps like we did in the 80s or something like that. But to answer your question, I believe the Toronto Maple Leafs are going to, with the nucleus they have there right now, they should be able to get it done. And it's now probably longer than the Rangers drought, because wasn't the Leafs last cup in 67?

67, so what are we working on now? Yeah, so that's actually actually that is now longer than the Rangers for years is a long time long long long time, but I love the Leafs. No, I guess it's not quite there yet. Another couple years, but I think it's funny. Grown up in Toronto, I never liked the Leafs because I just think this sort of that Harold Ballard era was so bad. And I mean, we would go to the gardens, but you were going to watch the other teams

that were coming. I mean, every time the oiler's played, including exhibition games, I was sitting up in those crappy gray seats to watch a game. But now I'm always amazed when I'm back in Toronto just what an ordeal it is to get to the air Canada Center to see a game. I mean, it's got to be one of the toughest towns to get tickets to. Well, I just know coming to New York and original 16 and the passion behind the generations of fans that were here. It didn't take me long to understand the gravity of it.

And when I say I love the Leafs, I love the Leafs because of that same. Yeah, yeah. Original 16s are just a different thing. Original 16, the history, the passion, the heartbreak, all the things that go into an organization that make it so compelling to go to the game and to cheer the Leafs on if you're a Leaf fan. Even if you're not a Leaf fan, you still got to respect where they've been and where they've come from. The way the organization has moved into the modern era and this juggernaut organization

that is just So compelling. Well, if they win this year. I've done the math now. It'll be 50 Three years if they win this year. So they've got one and they've got two years left to sort of say 54 is long a long time, but They're working on it. So hopefully they can get it done sooner or later It'd be nice to see a Canadian team get in there, but. Oh, yeah, for sure. It's there. It won't be, I can guarantee you, it won't be given to them. Mark, it's been awesome.

Thank you so much for all these insights. You know, the first time we met, I remember, you never know when you're a kid, you meet your boyhood heroes. You just never know. Can they live up to the poster on your wall? Can they live up to that time you got that autograph then you got to stand in front of them for 3.7 seconds while they scribbled something on your hockey stick or whatever. It's been a pleasure getting to know you and I think that this podcast I think is just, hopefully a great way for folks to get to really understand your style of leadership which is

is just hopefully a great way for folks to get to really understand your style of leadership, which is certainly not about boasting, but about just sort of a quiet, passionate, yet highly intuitive and introspective form of leadership that I don't know. I guess I'm biased, but I don't think we see a lot of that in sports anymore. If nothing else, I'm highly appreciative of it, but I know that others will be also. Well, thank you. Great being on. Great talking. Hockey, as always there. We'll be watching

those leaves. All right, let's go get some dinner. You can find all of this information and more at pterotiamd.com forward slash podcast. There you'll find the show notes, readings, and links related to this episode. You can also find my blog at pteratiamd.com. Maybe the simplest thing to do is to sign up for my subjectively non-lame once a week email, where I'll update you on what I've been up to, the most interesting papers I've read, and all things related to longevity, science, performance, sleep, etc. On social, you can find me on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook,

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