The Peter Attia Drive - The Ayrton Senna Episode (re-release): Celebrating the greatest driver in Formula 1 history and the cautionary tales of driven individuals

Episode Date: May 1, 2019

To celebrate the life of the legendary Formula 1 driver Ayrton Senna, 25 years to the day of his tragic death, we are re-releasing this bonus episode. In this episode, Peter and med school colleague (and brilliant psychiatrist) Paul Conti reminisce on their favorite moments in Formula 1 history, their deep admiration for the late Ayrton Senna, and the remarkable careers of their favorite drivers. Paul also helps to illuminate the psychological components that made the luminary drivers great, and the cautionary lessons we can take from their incredible lives. We discuss: Who is Ayrton Senna? [3:47]; How Senna’s death changed the sport [9:52]; The 80s & 90s: a remarkable era of Formula 1 [12:57]; Hypothesizing what caused Senna’s fatal crash [17:47]; Comparing Stewart and Senna, their incredible bravery, and what lessons we can learn from them [23:32]; Best documentaries on racing, and some of Senna’s best moments [31:02]; Gilles Villeneuve, Stefan Bellof, and some of the other greats [39:17]; Why Senna is widely acknowledged as the best of all time [46:17]; Great rivalries and personalities [49:32]; Rendezvous, a high-speed drive through Paris [56:52]; and More. Learn more at www.PeterAttiaMD.com Connect with Peter on Facebook | Twitter | Instagram.

Hey everyone, welcome to the Peter Atia Drive. I'm your host, Peter Atia. The drive is a result of my hunger for optimizing performance, health, longevity, critical thinking, along with a few other obsessions along the way. I've spent the last several years working with some of the most successful top performing individuals in the world, and this podcast is my attempt to synthesize what I've learned along the way to help you live a higher quality, more fulfilling life. If you enjoy this podcast, you can find more information on today's episode and other topics at peteratia-md.com.

5. Hi everyone, welcome to a bonus episode of the drive. This bonus episode is being released on May 1, 2019, which is the 25th anniversary of the death of Brazilian Formula One legend Iarthun Senna. This interview was originally done in the fall of 2018, Paul Conti and I spoke at length about our mutual admiration for our Thun. And we actually tied it back into some of the concepts around an interview we had done earlier around depression. So if you're listening to this for the first time, you

may even find it helpful to go back and to listen to that. It's sort of hard for me to believe truthfully that this is 25 years later. I remember the Sunday, May 1, 1994, like it was yesterday. I remember exactly where I was sitting. When the news came across, I was in college at the time. I didn't have a television. I wasn't watching the race, but it's weird. It's one of those moments that I'm sure many people understand would, you know, something so profound happens. And everything about that moment is seared in your memory, including literally where I was sitting, what the floor looked like, what the shelf looked like in my bookcase, things like that, where my, where my little stereo was sitting.

In this episode, we obviously celebrate the life of Senna and talk about perhaps what could have been. In the show notes, we're going to add to what we had done in the past and include some of the really exciting and beautiful recent tributes that have come up, including some really interesting stuff that has come out from his second to last teammate before he died, Gerhard Burger, a number of really interesting articles have come out. So I guess I would say even if you're not a Formula One fan, most people who listened to this the first time around came back to me and said, wow, that was really interesting.

I didn't think I could find that interesting. I would encourage you to take a moment to listened to this the first time around came back to me and said, wow, that was really interesting. I didn't think I could find that interesting. I would encourage you to take a moment to listen to this. Many people to this day consider Senate to be the greatest driver in the history of Formula One. And his death was really the turning point of a sport, while certainly many drivers had died before Senna. Never before had it been so public, never before had it been so visible to so many people. And it almost overnight, well, I would say it overnight changed the culture of the sport.

And over a very short period of time, actually changed the technology of the sport. And today, the sport that I still love is infinitely safer and considerably different than the one that many of us fell in love with in the 80s and the 90s. So I hope you'll enjoy this episode today as we look back 25 years after the death of Ertzenzen. So Paul, we have a lot of things in common, not the least of which is our birthday. Yes. Here is the same birthday, which is great because you're one of the few people whose birthdays I remember. I just, I'm like a moron when it comes to birthdays. I have like an encyclopedic

memory of many things except for birthdays. But of course, every time I wake up, usually you're calling me to wish me a happy birthday, which is reminding me that it's my birthday. I usually wake up to a text from you. The other thing we have in common is a, I think what can only be described as an obsession with arguably, though I would say it's not arguably, definitively the greatest driver in the history of driving. I remember it was one of the first things we bonded over when we got to medical school, because at that point it had only been three years since Senna's death. And for those of us who cherished him,

it's a day that all of us remember, Sunday May 1st, 1994, what is it about Sennas that you loved so much? I'll try not to be long-winded, but to answer both facets of that. On the one hand, I'm not sure that I'm aware of anyone, certainly not in a way that I observed and experienced with interest as it unfolded, right?

Who has been more single-minded about achievement. You know, this is a person who did absolutely everything that was required for not just the highest level of achievement, but for moving that bar of what the highest level of achievement means. And for people who don't follow like what Formula One was then, is this is not like somebody sitting in a car and just driving it around, right? The physical stamina, you know, the training, the ability to control oneself physically and mentally, right?

The ability to hone reflexes and to multitask in ways that push executive function, push mind and body to the very limits, I've never seen anyone do that. And that's complemented by his incredibly intense passion. I mean, this is someone who, yes, was very religious, but that religiosity, I believe, was expressed in passion for people who were suffering in his own country, right? He was Brazilian and he was, he was born wealthy, born privileged, yet had such a sense for the struggle

of people who were up against things that he wasn't up against. And I believe that that unity with people who didn't have even one billion of the things that he had into money, fame, adulation, but I don't believe that he felt any different, I believe he felt fortunate and he felt a sense of almost messionic drive

to be the best and make things better for people. And that leads to the second facet, which is ultimately that was his undoing. He died in the context of that drive, right? Of that inability to step back from the brink even a little bit. So I think that he's a model for the best in us. And also that we can have so many good qualities and ultimately be the architects of our own downfall by not being able to step back and realize our own humanity. Like he didn't think he was better than anyone else, but there was another level in which

I think he believed because of it was so incumbent upon him to make things better for everyone else that he had to be superhuman. Right? I mean, it's a way of not feeling better than everyone else in an arrogant way, but feeling better in a way that isolates us and means that there's always more to do and we never get to rest. Right. There was more responsibility on he felt, I get the sense, of course, never having never met him, but just having read everything that one could read about him and watching every video and documentary, he felt the weight of a nation on the shoulders. Yes, exactly. Yes. And if you feel the weight of a nation on your shoulders,

and you know, you don't realize that that just has to be a shared responsibility, but you take that all on yourself, then you can inadvertently be the architect of, you know, this is of your own demise. I don't think many people realized until after his death, how much he gave back to Brazil. He kept a lot of that secret. Yeah. I had a lot of education for underprivileged children in the, you know, in the inland part of Brazil. I mean, so, so, I mean, it's just one example of so much of what he did was so humble, you know, and I was very interesting, you know, Sid Watkins, right, who is the great surgeon that, right, who, who also was by the greatest understanding of the personalities of these incredibly driven people, you know, just described a serene humility in him that this

was someone who lived an unobtrusive life When left his own devices to live it and you put them on camera. You could say, okay, look his lifestyles Are the rich and famous that's not who he was inside and it's you know, it's fascinating to know that that emits that piece in tranquility was such a Desperation to do things that were superhuman. And there's a lesson in that, right? The lesson that goes back to mythology, right? Of flying too close to the sun, right? And it is a lesson for people who, I think, have great abilities and great perseverance

and great ability to torment themselves in order to continue to persevere that if we don't recognize our limits, we want great risk of not achieving our goals. And in Airtown, Santa, who lived to be 90, could have done what? How much for Brazil?

How much for the world? So I see him as really amongst the greatest of us for his capability, his drive, his compassion, his just living in shared humanity. But I also see him as emblematic of the foibles that are not just foibles, but the dangers that we can represent to ourselves and the need for not just humility about ourselves, but also for compassion about ourselves and like, look, there's a limit and we've got to take care of ourselves if we're going to keep going for ourselves and for whatever it is that we care about. Virtually every Formula One driver today, so you look at the heroes of today,

Lewis Hamilton, Sebastian Vettel, Ricardo, all these guys. If asked, almost without exception to a man, they'll all say the same thing. That Senna's death has been the single most important change in Formula One. It was the turning point in the safety of that sport. Do you remember what they found in his car when he died at Emola? Do you remember with a flag? They found that the Austrian flag, which is unusual. Why would a Brazilian have been carrying the Austrian flag on the day he died? A person who's like every cell was about Brazil had an Austrian flag and of course we know that the day before that Roland Ratsenberger was Austrian had died in

a Formula One car and how shocking and distressing that was to Ertán Sáná and his drive to win that race. Why? I mean everything he wanted to win was to be the best and to glorify Brazil, right? Here it was about, I think, such an intense compassion for this person's loss of life, that I think it blinded him to the limits, to even his own limits. I mean, even, you know, he had limits, right?

We all have limits. And I think it blinded him to those limits. And I think subsequently, it's just my opinion. It's blinded for me, Leone, to, in a sense, the need for some element of danger to allow people to distinguish themselves. And, you know, that might sound like an odd thing to say is coming from the perspective of preserving life, right?

But I think that, you know, there were times when that sport was way too dangerous and just way too many people lost their lives, but to go so far to uniformitize it and to try and eliminate danger, some of what has been eliminated was, you know, the limits of human ambition and human bravery that I think were an important part of distinguishing people who really were heroes and in part they were heroes because they were taking some risks and again I'm not a fan of let's bring back you know

25 or 30% of formula one drivers are dying behind the wheel I mean obviously that is that's not okay but there's been such a push in the other direction. And I think that there was just really a terror in the sport. It was a terror that then sought to eliminate, you know, the opportunity to push oneself too far. But I think in doing so, there's an arena of human endeavor that can be tremendously inspiring that I think was changed too much. And I think people don't have the opportunity to be here at Tonsana. And I think in some ways in order to have the opportunity to be him, there has to be the opportunity to take the risks that he took.

And hopefully to learn from his example and take them in a way that results in excellence and survival. But I think the sport in many ways is taking away that ability. And I think part of why people harken back to that is it was a turning point that really changed the sport I think in way in too many ways. Yeah, it's interesting. I don't know, that era just seems remarkable. I mean, when you think about the rivalries that existed, you know, Mansell and PK and Post and Sennah, it was, I don't know, it's hard to say, I mean, like I could talk about Formula 1 forever. I know, you and I, I think you and I actually have, we actually have demos.

But, but there really is something about the sort of the mid 80s to mid 90s that was kind of a remarkable year. I mean, I, again, not that it's about the mid 80s to mid 90s that was kind of a remarkable year. I mean, I, again, not that it's about the championships because many people will still look at Jill Villeneuve having never won a championship as one of the greatest drivers ever. And we could park that for a moment on the side. But I really do.

So first of all, even though Senate one only, quote, unquote, three championships, and my mind, he won four. So the disqualification in the Japanese Grand Prix, I look at that disqualification, the same way I look at the Heggler Leonard fight, which is just, they made a bad call. There is no way he should have been disqualified in that.

And so he died as a four time champion. But if you do the math on it, you realize that the season he died, which was the third race of the 1994 season, even though the Williams car was a fraction of what it was the year before, what most people don't realize is Hill went on his teammate, Damon Hill, went on to finish second to Schumacher that season by a point, basically. It came down to the last race, which tells you

that a lot of the kinks that were going on in the Williams car of that year were getting worked out. In other words, had Sennon not died, I'm positive he would have been the 1994 World Champion. And I suspect he would have been the World Champion all the way till about 97. Because you did, you ultimately had Jacques Villeneuve, one in 97, Damon Hill, one in what 96 all in the Williams car. Yeah, yeah

I mean this is it so people talk about well, okay, you know many years later Schumacher went on to win so many championships and that's that's impressive I think most people still consider center the greatest driver of all time But you know Senate could have won seven world championships in an era when that was unheard of. Right. I mean, you have to look at any achievement by era, right? I mean, I think about Fondio won five world championships in a time when most people like didn't survive

five seasons. That you couldn't live. So how can you compare that to a time when safety was at such a height in the Ferrari, it was a dominant car? I mean, like, you know, you can't, there's a comparison then that the truly is apples and oranges and that era of like mid 80s to mid 90s, you know, was an era of like incredibly fast machines and machines that weren't always on parity, but machines that were on parity enough that the driver could make the difference.

And you really saw what I think of as Titanic struggles between exceptional personality. So the same thing that drew me to the interest in the people behind the Second World War. To an interest in people who are struggling whether it's with glory or with no one watching, is the same thing that to me was the attraction of Formula One, that you know, you're Titanic personalities of Prost, Mansell, Senna. And I think that, you know, it's interesting that Damon Hill won the championship that year and then again, I think that the Vastard Alrighty people would say he was not the caliber of driver of Mansell, Prost, or Senna.

But look at the caliber of human being. I mean, here's a person who grew up with this incredibly dashing, debonair father, right? And you know, you see pictures. And he was around the paddock as an infant. Right, and when you see pictures, you know, you see Damon Hill wasn't cut in the mold of his father, right?

He's probably cut more in the mold of his mother. You know, you see these pictures of him kind of standing close to his mother, looking in awe at his father. You know, who just these pictures of him kind of standing close to his mother looking in awe at his father You who just looked like a movie star? Right. I mean, right. This was the handlebar moustache and he's a roar and just he was such a, you know, a model of what it meant to be a man in that era, right? And despite not naturally having those characteristics, I think physically or

personality wise, Damon Hill won the World Championship anyway. And he went back in that Williams after Senate was killed. I think that Damon Hill's story is a much quieter story, but I think it's a tremendous story of being an exceptional human. And I think that's what appeals to people who really love that era of the sport is. I mean, you and I love who were infinitely infatuated appeals to people who really love that era of the sport is.

You and I love, we're infinitely infatuated by exceptional people. We want to understand them, we want to learn from them. In some ways, we want to venerate them. I think there's something that's really, there's something that's good about that. But maybe charm all this together. There's also something in us that I think at times wants to idealize them and then therefore, in a sense, idealize what we're doing. And the truth is that, you know, Senna's death was avoidable.

And I don't mean it was avoidable because they could have made that track dumbed down. It was avoidable if you had driven less fast, I think. You know, I don't remember you and I have really ever talked about this in great detail. I mean, I have a pretty strong point of view on why he died. I'd be curious to know yours. I think the official answer that came out of the trial was that basically the crash on the first lap that led to the safety car coming out allowed the tires to cool and he basically lost traction.

Now, there are a couple of really interesting videos on YouTube that have tried to dissect this in 10 different ways, but I got to tell you the theory that I find most compelling. I actually think the steering column broke before he went off the road. I actually think, because, as you know, Santa modified the steering column in his car. So he had like an extra six inches of a steering column in there, and it was well, so he had a separate point of weakness in his steering column. And I actually think it broke. And I say that because when you look at the film of the onboard of him going off just before it cuts out, you can see him violently turning the wheel with no effect.

But this is before the impact. So there's no dispute that the steering column broke. That's a given. The question is that it broke before or after the collision. And if it broke before the collision, it's hard to argue that that's not the single most important part of why he crashed. What's your thought? Again, what do I know?

I don't know, I don't know. We're two not go ahead. We're fans. We're not go ahead, fans offering our amateur opinion. But my read of that is different, right? And again, who knows? But think about the Williams before that year, the active suspension.

Generally regarded as the single most technologically advanced Formula One car in the history of the sport, including up until this day, even though that was 25 years ago. You need to do one little thing to like, put it a tiny bit off balance in the car adjusts. I mean, that car was like science fiction in terms of its sophistication,

and sure all the teams were trying to do that, but Williams had. That Williams took us to another place. So then, okay, what happens is they say, like take all that stuff away. And I think through no fault of the Williams or the team, that car was a beast without that. Right, because it was built.

So it was undrivable. And I think, and some of the things, you know, that Damon Hill said about driving beast without that. Right? Because it was built. Right. So it was undrivable. And I think, and some of the things, you know, that Damon Hill said about driving were really scary. Like that car was on a knife edge. And like it was a terrifying car to drive. Yes. Senna did not finish the first two races of the 94 season, even though he was leading both

because he just lost control of the car. And when you watch those spin outs, you're like, that's the type of spin out I would do in a car. Like that's not something that the world's best driver would do. Right, which I think means it like most people would say, okay, look, if I'm gonna drive this car, because again, we're talking about a level of talent and bravery that I cannot imagine, right? That, okay, they're gonna drive it and they're gonna try and drive it fast.

But that's a different thing than driving it on the absolute edge. Aville, Newf style was, how do you know where the limit is? You go over it and you fly off the track and then you figure that out. That was not the way to drive that car and survive. And I think that he knew that. But I think you forgot that when Ratson Burger died. And I think that that was the cause of the- So you think he went around that corner just a little too quickly?

I do. Given the tire... Basically given the tire temperature, is that what you think it came down to you? I think given all the complex factors, including tire temperature, all the things that it happened, I think he went too fast. And I think that there was sort of the hubris of brilliance and the need to make something right. That, you know, to win that race, I mean, I mean imagine Ertán Senna had he won that race and then he drives

around the track with an Austrian flag I mean I am not sure that a human being can be glorified more I mean you know think about at that point you know I mean Senna had a superhuman status. I mean, there were people in lots of places, not just in Brazil that actually thought, like, maybe he's immortal. If the Brazilians loved him the most, you could, I think you'd have to make the case that the Japanese loved him the second most, right? Absolutely.

He was a God in Japan. Absolutely. I mean, you see those pictures and he's like getting off a plane, people like fainting and, you know, things that, okay, we like saw with the Beatles, but, you know, but there's a lot of like hysteria and around, I'm not trying to say anything negative about people fainting when the Beatles got off the plane. But this was an adulation of a single human being

for his tenacity, his ability to say, like there's never enough that's been put into succeeding. So imagine him and the glory that you know that he would have brought. Now again, he could say, well, what's the glory? I mean, you know, this well in Ratsburg or need the glory, right? But but it is meaningful. I mean, I think it would have been meaningful in a way of that no one would have ever forgotten and that would have meant something to his family and his friends and would have meant something forever. I mean, it could have

been potentially one of the most memorable moments, if not the most memorable moment in the history of the sport. And I think he was so driven to do that that he attempted to do something that was superhuman. And I think that cost him his life. You know, there's so many things about that day that just blown my mind. Obviously, there are interviews of him on that day that he died in the paddock and he was not himself. And Sid Watkins has said that. Sid Watkins has said that. Yeah. He even tried to talk him into retiring.

Yeah. Exactly. He said, you know, Ertten, you've done it all. You have nothing left to prove. And Sid more than anybody else knew the dangers of the sport and thought, why take one more chance? And I think he was also afraid that not only is Senna going to take one more chance, but he's gonna take

heroic checks right right exactly and I think and I think that's what frighten him and see realized like this man is heading towards death You know, it's interesting when you think about Jackie Stewart's last race was a non-race He didn't race his last race Because his teammate was yacht rent was his teammate. Oh, yeah, sorry, sit there. Yeah, his teammate died in qualifying for that race What was it was it Watkins? Which was a luck is yeah, I mean, I love watching interviews of Jackie Stewart talking about that and he was just like I was enough. That was it. It was over. Yep And again, I don't know I would not give anything to sit down and ask the question of Jackie Stewart, right? But, you know, here's a man who started driving when, I mean, if I'm remembering correctly, I think there was a 30% survival rate,

like a 70% death rate, right? When he started driving cars and he was so brave, like he worked to make safety better, but my god, who wouldn't when seven out of 10 people aren't surviving. So he was incredibly brave, and I don't think that changed. I don't think that his bravery changed. I think he had a sense of being paternal to say there. Say there was younger, Jackie Stewart was nurturing him, and I think his sense of... Jackie Stewart loved, I mean, he loved...

He wanted to give him every piece of knowledge he had, is sort of the impression I get. Yeah, and I think, you know, there's a different story there too, right? Which is like, how can we parse out the bravery of Jackie Stewart versus Ertán Séné? I mean, comrade stratosphere. And one of them was a death, rats and burgers death, I think, told Séné a lesson that I believe is born of trauma. I mean, I think that, think about the drive in Senna,

and it was a drive that had to be something in him of fighting some sense of not being good enough that he had to save his country, save the world. And I think that that had fatal consequences as opposed to Jackie Stewart. I think he seems to be some more balanced human being, who recognize in the death of Severe, like it's time for me to stop.

And I think the different lessons from that death are indicative of, I think, the different character structures of those two men. And again, I have no basis for saying that other than being a fan of the sport and reading things and trying to thinking about it. And I mean, there was clearly something, there was a demon inside of center, right?

I mean, I just don't think people flag themselves like that. You know, people don't just run in the heat with their uniform in helmet on, you know, until they like fall over and then someone like, okay, at that moment, you can't go any further, someone puts you in a car and you go back

and get rehydrated. I mean, like, you know, there was a way in which there was something Messianic in him. And I'm not sure that there can be mess in on things. Jim, remember the Brazilian Grand Prix that he won in, was it 93, when he's... Yeah, the steering. No, he got stuck in basically.

Well, the gear, that's right. What year was that? The, I don't remember if, I don't remember if it was, I don't remember what year it was, but it was the gear, he was stuck in a certain gear. He was stuck in a certain gear. Or something, it was a gear that I remember thinking, I was just thinking about this the other day.

I was like literally driving around the other day and I thought, what would I do if my car was stuck in fourth? Like if this was the only gear I could be in, I don't even know how I would drive. And yet this guy manages to win the Brazilian Grand Prix, when for a third of the race, he's stuck in some high gear. Right, and I think whether it was that that made the car harder to drive,

but like, you know, he had muscle cramping, right? From head to toe, and I think part of it was the heat, and the extra difficulty of, you know, of yanking that car around the track, right? It made it so difficult to drive that I'm sure he understood like how do you keep the revs up? How do you actually do this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right in a way that like in and you or I

would get passed by bicycles right right right but he's not I would have just all I mean I just I wouldn't have been driving right and I think the drive I mean in my view of of human performance in a way that we can witness right human tenacity in a way that we can witness they had to pull him out of the car yeah when you see footage of that film you've never seen him in that kind of pain uh... he he couldn't hold up the trophy at the end you remember yeah yeah yeah this is in front of brisill right and he says something that for you

his mother and father right about like not to touch it's right there was trying to hug him after the race and he said no don't touch me don't touch me yeah and and you know that to me is me is the kind of bravery that we at times don't get to witness, right? It's a kind of bravery that's like a legendary in wartime, right? You know, it's a kind of bravery that I think we respect so infinitely and I don't think we get to see it. You know, I mean, I've talked and and this is not the time to go into it, but an uncle of mine, who was a war hero, who when they were shooting at him, jumped out and got the guy who had been shot and was decorated, and did things that, to me, are unimaginable, how do you do that?

And I don't think that we know what to make of that. We've been fortunate not to be in those situations. So we don't know what would I do, could I do that, would I do that, like we've been fortunate not to be in those situations, right? So we don't know like, what would I do? Could I do that? Would I do that? And we don't have a metric for that in a way that we can understand because we know we're not, we don't understand like how it's in a trench and you're being shot at and somebody's been shot and they're screaming and like, you know, that's, I think

that's unfathomable. But I think things like send us achievement in Brazil and send us drive, like internal drive in San Marino, gives us some insight into what, you know, the human tenacity under incredible unimaginable pressures. And I think that there are ways in which it resonates with us because we get to witness that in a way that otherwise it's inaccessible to us. And we get to see it not just in its glory, but also in its fear and its terror. And in the reality of it, right?

That for every person who jumps out of a trench and saves somebody and gets a medal, how many people are there, jump out of a trench, and are dead. So I think witnessing that provides a metric in some ways of what human beings can do. And I think it's great for us to appreciate and to even venerate that. But I think the danger isn't identifying with it too much

because I think it's one thing to do that in more time and maybe people do that who don't have trauma as a motivator. It's different, right? But I think doing the things that, that, Sena did, and ultimately, the things that led to his death, I see that in, in rooting in some demon, something traumatic. And again, I absolutely don't know what that is.

But something inside of him that couldn't be good enough through what he had achieved, couldn't be good enough by celebrating Roland Ratzemberger even if he finished second or third. There was a drive in him that, that went against wouldn't be good enough by celebrating Roland Ratz and Berger even if he finished second or third. There was a drive in him that went against rationality and went against survival instincts. And I think that there's, you know, part of the reason I, you know, I'm so interested in him is it's, there's a lot of warnings in there to us too. And again, not to sound like a broken record, but I think so much of that comes down to

trauma. And my guess is that true traumatic things happen to record, but I think so much of that comes down to trauma. And my guess is that true traumatic things happen to people, but you look at the things, you know, Jackie Stewart was caught in a car, you know, stuck and there's gasoline and it could blow. But anytime, like that man went through traumatic things, but I think ultimately, you know, his decisions don't seem to me to be made through the lens of something traumatic. And I think Senna's due. And again, that may be me trying to over apply my heuristic, right? But that's, you know, for what it's worth, that's how I see it. You know, hopefully there's someone still listening to this who's not,

not who wasn't necessarily interested in racing, but who will become, you know, I, I feel like there's so many things I want to link to. I mean, for me, the two best, there's, there's like a hundred videos and documentaries on formula one that I love. But the two for me, the two best, there's like a hundred videos and documentaries on Formula One that I love, but the two that stand out the most to me are first and foremost, Sennhe. Yeah, absolutely. And the second is one, the number one, which is actually the very first time I saw that was with you. Yeah, you know what I watched it together, like five or or six years ago. It was late on a Saturday night, and I don't know what made us decide, like, we're going to stay up late in the watch this but oh my god.

You know what's interesting, I don't remember if they show it in either of those documentaries. They certainly don't show it in one and I don't even know if it comes up in Senate. But do they show the Donington first lap? I don't think so. In the rain at Donington? Yeah. I mean it's generally regarded as one of the greatest laps in history. Did I get one more?

I mean we've looked at it so much that I can't remember like what is it in, what isn't it in? Either way we'll link to it so much that I can't remember like, what is it in? What is it in? Either way, we'll link to it here so that people can see it. But it is, you know, it's funny because when I first started caring about racing, I had never raced myself. So it's a totally different animal once you've actually been in one of these cars. And it complete, like my appreciation for Senna, for anyone who does this as a profession, is two to three log-rhythmic orders of magnitude higher.

I simply can't understand how they do it. And so especially to look at something like Donnington where you realize like he passed what? He passed three guys in one lap of a rainy rack and it's not three dudes. It's like, you know, LA in post. It's like, it's amazing dudes, right? You get the best drivers on earth and three of the best cars on earth under conditions of which it appears to be impossible to pass someone. And you somehow managed to pass them all from number four position. It's just, again, I can watch that lap a hundred times and all I want to do is say, you couldn't make this up.

If this were in a movie, you would say, that's silly, we don't do that in movies. At least draw this out over 10 laps to have some suspense. You don't get to do it. Keep it realistic. Yeah, keep it realistic. This is so stupid. The other thing that fits that description is his qualifying lap at Monaco. Was it in 89 or 88?

I want to say 88, but I don't know. Yeah, because it would have been in the MP4-4, which would have been 88. I would have been 84, I think, in the MP4-4. No, MP4-4 was 88. Was it, okay, okay. So then it would be 88.

So what's a normal gap between the first second guy and qualifying at a course the size of Monaco? Like a tenth of a second? A hundred, five, one hundredths of a second to a tenth of a second, right? Do you remember how much he was ahead of pros to that year in qualifying? I mean, it's like, it's made it's a little bit minutes.

It's about a second and a half. Like an impossible amount of time. And to someone who'd look anyone who's not impressed with that, it's already long-stop listening to us. That's right, that's right. Anybody who's still listening to this, we don't have to explain why it's so significant. A second and a half May will be an hour.

I mean, it's an impossible gap. And the fact that the gap was against post driving the same car. And one of my favorite videos of that, because you know what's tragic? I mean, they're real tragedies. This is like little T-tragic, not big T-tragic. There is no on board film of that lap.

Is that right? So the on board film we will often see is in that lap. The on board film we see of him is in that race, but it's not that lap. That lap. To my knowledge, and I hope somebody can prove this wrong. And if you can, please tell us. There's a case at Topo Chico with your name on it.

I do not believe there is any onboard film from the qualifying lap in 88 Monaco in the MP44, where he goes a set, like something like 1.52 seconds faster. I didn't realize that. I thought some of the video that we'll watch of like Senna's greatest lap in Monaco was that lap. So I didn't realize that. I thought some of the video that we'll watch have like sent his greatest lap. And Monica was that lap. So I think they're right.

I think they're video from the race or other qualifying. I'm not from that lap. But what there is a video of is pro's face in the paddock as he sees the times. And it's just a look of, are you freaking hitting me? This guy is not for real. Right. I mean, there's a man who,

you think I wanted the greatest drivers in history who has to have in his head like, okay, like, Senna is great, but if I've gone this fast, what's the fastest he could go? Right, a tenth of a second more. Maybe at his best, you know, 5100, I mean, how could it, to see that, you know, 5100. I mean, how could it to see that? You know, it's just proof of concept

of the preter natural ability of Airton Sena. And I think, you know, having exceptional ability at anything is a wonderful thing, but it also can be a dangerous thing. And having preter natural ability is an extremely wonderful thing and also an extremely dangerous thing. There's a video we'll try to link to.

I remember sending it to you when it came out. I described it as the finest McLaren propaganda. I have a version. And McLaren has the best propaganda. Yeah, they do. I love the propaganda. Yeah, I'm all in. I'm a sucker for the propaganda.

That's fair. If I could have afforded a P1, I would have bought one the day that Nuremberg ring came out. I was like, oh, I gotta have one. But they have a video of that lap, which of course doesn't show any footage of the lap. But in it, Sanna says that may have been the peak of his career, that moment. He would go on, in fact, he hadn't even won a world championship yet. He won his first championship in 88.

I think, yeah, I think the MP44 was his first championship car. I think he won Yeah, I think he won 88 90 and 91, but anyway to think that he believes that he was at his best even before he'd won his first championship because of that margin. Yeah It's it's it's amazing, right? It's it's hubris. it's brilliance, like it's it's putting together everything that's on the absolute knife edge and getting it right. Amazing. Yeah, I remember they explained this to us, you know, in racing school, which was the

difference between you and them is you will very occasionally be able to take a car to its limit, very occasionally be able to take a car to its limit, very occasionally. And then most of the time you'll go too far and you'll lose control of the car. The best in the world are always at the limit without going over it. It's amazing. And so even my coach, who's a professional driver, to this day when I sit in a car with him and we're trying to go over something, so like we'll get in the car together and I'll be in the passenger seat, he'll be in the driver with him and we're trying to go over something so like we'll get in the car together and I'll be in the passenger seat, he'll be in the driver's seat and we'll communicate through the radio because of

course is too loud to talk and he'll take me through lap so we right button willows sort of our favorite place because it's relatively close in Southern California. There are areas there like in particular I don't know if you know that track well but the bus stop which is a part of that track. To this day, I still get kind of nervous, how fast he's going. Amazing. I'm like, how is he able to control this? And you're really good at this and really experienced and you know the car and it even,

it's amazing you to be a car. I wouldn't say I'm really good. I mean, but the point is, I'm not a normal, like I'm not just a layperson who's never been in or driven a race car, but yeah, it just humbles me. It is amazing. And again, I think we celebrate and and venerate exceptional talent. And I think that's wonderful, right?

But I also, I think we need to be careful about the lessons of it too, you know, that this is like one that's just exciting is can be we're talking about human beings at the limit and it's exceptional and it's inspiring and it's risky. You know, and it really tells us something, it tells us something about human beings that we, in some ways, we want to push ourselves. You know, we want to admire people who push to the limit. So while we're on the topic of racing,

there's another driver who I know a lot less about than you, but I just remember from some of our, put it this way, I remember when you figured out that I was Canadian, which was kind of a funny concept. It's like, this guy's from Canada. What the hell is that? Which of course, Americans are secretly so jealous of Canada, because you've got your shit together up there.

And we like make fun of you to kind of cover that up. So I think that comes from insecurity, too, to be honest. But the thing that you loved most about the fact that I was Canadian was Jill Vilnev. Oh, absolutely. I mean, you might be the greatest Vilnev fan ever. What is it about Vilnev that you loved so much? I think a part of it is like, I was like, I was a kid, right? So when I first was like learning about him,

you know, I was so impressionable and so impressed by the glory of utter mastery of something that was really venerated on a worldwide scale. So the fact that like there was no one with as much natural talent, I mean one might argue, even like Stefan Belov, Fangeo, Clark, I mean, Sena, you have to look, there's only a couple people you can even talk about in the same breath in terms of natural talent. And in retrospect, I think just the utter audacity of him you know I mean this is like I started off as like a snowmobile racer right

him Quebec and was so shockingly good that what a few years later he's driving in Formula One for Ferrari I mean like this is during an era when Ferrari was not a dominant car no I mean he won in a car that I think he himself described as a truck, but he was so shockingly talented. And in retrospect, I think it's interesting, because again, I try and I think if we're going to respect and to some degree, venerate humans who have great and at times, predinatural talent and are willing to take risks, then we also have to acknowledge that sometimes the outcome of that is something that isn't glorious, right? That is just simply tragic.

And I think, you know, when we sent his death, I think it was so tragic because I think that's a person who did understand the risks. I think in many ways, Vilniu and I think Belov that's a person who who did understand the risks. I think in many ways, Villeneuve and I think Bellov, you know, in what how many years, almost 35 years or so, that I've been really following closely, you know, high level motorsports or two people who I, I mean, I'm not so sure that there was any fear in them. And that's extremely dangerous. And I think they were betterternational.

Do you know up until, I'm sorry to interrupt, but do you realize that Bell Ops and Aaron Berg ring record was only broken a week ago? I didn't know that it was broken a week ago. Yeah, I didn't. And again. That's record that stood for like 35 years or something. And we're talking apples and oranges,

I mean, in a car 35 years ago, right? I mean, again, okay, the record was broken, but in some ways you have to look and see, that record from an Arab history. That's the most drive on Nuremberg was still the most ridiculous thing ever. Right, right, so the old Nuremberg ring, right, did, you know, the most daunting circuit in history.

What did Jack used to it call it, the green hell? The green hell, I think, yeah. And, you know, like, I mean, there were things that Belloff and Villeneuve did that, I mean, you truly had to, like, not have anywhere in the equation, your survival, which is, you know, part of the reason neither of them survived. And again, I think it's just fascinating.

The innate skill and just the utterly undaunted bravery was Enzo alive when when Vilna wrote a lot died right I mean he was What did he said he once said something about Vilna that was kind of remarkable? Yeah, he so he know for Enzo for Ari had been a driver, right and It was in Tazio Nuvolari, right, that he found like, in Nuvolari, it was hard to again compare. I mean, it was so, so long ago, but when people really talk about the greatest people that have ever, the greatest talents

to ever drive a car, Nuvolari is on everybody's list. And in Nuvolari, this like small person, right, who didn't look like, you know, he would be the greatest driver, but who was unparalleled in his era? That Ferrari saw this is the pinnacle of greatness. And it led him to realize he was a very good driver. But when you see Newvalor, you realize, maybe I should stop driving.

And so building cars, and he really worshiped Newvalor. And he said something like, who would have imagined? I never thought that I would see anyone, like, you know, Nouveau-Larry died, how many decades ago that there's no one else like him to see define the spirit of Nouveau-Larry again in this like diminutive, elf like French Canadian. I mean, I think like was unimaginable to Enzo Ferrari

who, who therefore felt so passionate about Vilnouf because he saw in him the ultimate of talent and fearlessness and the ultimate in making a cardoo and seemingly impossible things, which is what Nouveau-Larry was known for and what Vilnov was known for. Vilnov died in 82, correct? In 1982, yeah, it was older Belgium. It's a bit of a tragic story as well, not unlike Senna's death in which you think this could have been preventable. What were the circumstances of his death? It involved the teammate, didn't it?

Yeah, his teammate was Pionni, who I had a very, very different personality type. Again, I don't want to be careful not to try and go diagnosing people that I've never met or treated. But this was a person for whom ego in the very traditional sense was on the leading edge. Really the opposite of Vilnu, who people describe as like devoid of guile, like he just didn't get why, and you would never double cross someone or do something unsavory, right? I mean, you just go out and you went on a track. And you know, Pirani had done things at Imola, actually the previous race.

That were deceitful. I mean, he did the team orders where whoever was ahead like that's that at a certain point in the race and then Pyrenee passed, they'll leave. When Villeneuve wasn't, you know, didn't think that that could happen. The team mate would pass.

Right, because, cause never in a million years would Villeneuve just like, what I'm gonna do. Disso-bait. Yeah, and to win in a million years would fill new, they're just like, what I'm going to do. So paid. Yeah. And to win in a way that would then be hollow, right? Like you're in front at the time that the team has decided is when somebody wins. Now you slow down and I pass you. Like, what's the glory in that? And I believe that he had thought that like there must have been some mistake. And he like repast pyramid, right? And then slow down again, not even thinking then maybe he did this on purpose. And I think Pyrrany passed in the second time. You know when Vilnius drive then was such a

drive to win that at the time he was killed I mean it was almost like a 50-50 which direction is car going to go. Like you slow down so you don't take that risk that you make the wrong choice and there's disaster. And I think the absence of fear, the anger of having been deceived. In many ways, the naivete really led to his death. Although by the same token, I don't think there was anyone driving with Phil Noob who thought that he was going to retire. I don't think anyone thought that. It's like no one thought that of Belfast. No one thought that of Novelari. If I understand, remember Crocky died of tuberculosis in all age, right? So that doesn't mean that they I've been in the office for a while, and I've been in the office for a while, and I've been in the office for a while, and I've been in the office for a while, and I've been in the

office for a while, and I've been in the office for a while, and I've been in the office for a while, and I've been in the office for a while, and I've been in the office for a while, and I've been in the There aren't that many examples of athletes in other sports where the greatest of the generation before and the greatest of the generation after, still without hesitation, acknowledge him as the greatest. And so there's Fangeo, one when well Fangeo, who again would certainly be on anybody's short list of greatest drivers of all time, you know, regarded Sennah as the greatest. And if you ask Lewis Hamilton, who is arguably today's greatest driver, who is the greatest without hesitation,

Ayurth and Sennah. Right, that's amazing. You ask the drivers of Sennah's era, who was the greatest, Ayurth and Sennah. Right, I mean, I remember the interviews of Fangeh, as an old man, talking about Sennah's name. And he felt like this was the passing of the torch. This is the one who is better than me.

I can remember his, he would say over and over, Lume Hour, right, he's like the best. And this is clearly the best. And you'd see like is better than me. I can imagine he would say over and over at Lomé Hor, right? He's like the best. And it's clearly the best. And you'd see like his Fangeo, you know, as an old man, I'm so deedy at that point, right? There's a beautiful picture of Fangeo standing on the podium with Sanna holding him, embracing him like a child.

You know, the one I'm talking about, he has his hands on his cheeks in the most loving way. It's such a, and again, it looks like it's his father or his grandfather. Yeah, it says, when you think about validation of someone, right? And I think that's because, you know, I mean, look, there's so many reasons for it, right? But because if you look at all around, right, I mean, again, we could split hair as about bravery, talent, and we can look at people like Vilnov andven, Belov, Anfongio, and Clark, and Prost, and Mansell, and Schumacher, and you can look at all these people,

and there's so many different aspects of ability that you can, how do you really judge one versus another without splitting hairs? But when you take it all together, there is a picture that emerges, which denotes Sena as the best, right? When you combine talent, dedication, you know, understanding of the nuance, is not wanting to understand why the Japanese engineers, the Honda engineers loved him, because he wanted

to understand every single thing about that car and the engine that was propelling it. He was the ultimate, because there was nothing that was anything less than 100% intensely relevant. Every nuance of the course, every nuance of the car, every nuance of the engine, every nuance of the competition, their physical prowess, their experience, their psychological weaknesses, right? I mean, this is a person who approached Formula One, like you or I mode approach like saving our family, right? There's like no nuance that isn't 100% imperatively relevant. And I think to be that way and to maintain that, really marked him like it elevated the talent,

the bravery, it elevated everything to the really optimal level, which is why I think, the bravery, to elevate everything to the really optimal level, which is why I think the reason why the generations all say that he's the greatest. And I think it's for good reason. And again, I keep coming back to the idea that part of being the greatest for him was being messianic. And if you're going to be messianic, there's a risk that you won't survive it. I remember Prost would say this in interviews. He, you know, because it's an interesting Prost and Sena had a completely tumultuous, hostile relationship until the day that he died. Yeah.

It's very interesting. I don't remember again, I wish interview I've seen it in. I might be in one of these documentaries, but Prost tells the story of how, because he had retired in 93 after winning in the Williams, I guess that year would have been the 15, right, the F-15. And now he's a commentator. So, Emola that day, the day that Sena died, Sena said on the radio,

something to the effect of, I want to welcome my great and wonderful friend, Elaine Prost, it's so wonderful to have you on the radio or something to that effect. And Prost commented how he was like so moved by that. You know, they had had such a bitter rivalry. And here was Senate paying him this wonderful, gracious, kind compliment. And of course, several weeks later, you know, or several, probably a week later, Prost is one of his Paul bearers. But Prist had said many times during interviews, he's like, the problem with Senate is he thinks he can't die.

He can't die. He has this belief, this belief that he has some God-given right to win every race no matter what. That's messionic, right? And when you think about the personality types, right, I mean, Prost was as far as I can ascertain a practical man. I mean, there's a reason why his nickname was the professor, right? Like his goal was, I'm gonna win as much as I can.

It's okay, it's probabilistic and we play, yeah. I want victory, I want, you know, I want the fame and fortune that comes along with it and fucking obviously I want to survive it, right? Because like, there's a whole bunch of things to do afterwards. And you know that mentality running up against a messianic meaning to like everything, right? To every qualifier, in every practice session, and you know, every little loan, every race,

they were so different that I think it was almost impossible that they weren't going to clash in ways that became deeply personal But when you take them out of that crucible, right? That these were people that ultimately I think had deep respect for the differences in them I mean, I think in ways maybe one might say Prost could have used a little bit of Senna and Senna could used a little bit of Prost Yeah, but they were oil and water. They wouldn't make sense. I mean, Frank Williams from the day he first saw Senna always wanted him on his team. And the reason it took until 1994 was because Prost was there

and Prost had a clause in his contract that said, I will never be on the same team as Senna. Yeah, yeah. So he had to wait for Pr Pros to retire to leave McLaren. Right. Which Frank Williams, I mean, my understanding and from what I've read is, you know, that Frank Williams loved pitting people against one another, right?

I mean, how did, look, I think the most exciting person I ever watched drive, I do think is Nigel Mansl. And, you know, you look at Mansl was considered kind of second-rate, right? He was, you know, at a time there were ones and twos, you know, he was the two to Andredi, and I PK was the acknowledged number one, but it wasn't man's always saying, oh God no. Right. And and and Williams wasn't the kind to say, look, you know, you have to sit in the number two. Right. He was a kind of like, you're starting number two, but you want to be number one, you know, and prove it. And part of a, you know,

PK's kind of denigration, I think, you know, his haughty condescension to mantle is part of all I Confiruated him, you know, and and I think made him you know really among the greatest of the greats I mean you watch I believe it's Mexico City you watch mantle pass burger on the outside I mean like mantle impossible things with impossible aggression and I think Senna said at one point that they asked him I could do you worry when you see someone in your river mirror and he said, the only person you worried about was Mansoul because he's content to go over you if you can't go around you. I mean, that's a powerful statement coming from Senna and part of what did that was I think the infuriation of being the number two

to a condescending number one and wanting to trounce him. That's why that era, I mean my god, like it's just unbelievable to me to go back. And I get, honestly, it sounds awful to say this, but I much prefer enjoying, enjoy watching races from that area than even watching races today, which isn't to say I don't enjoy races today. And I think this year with Mercedes and Ferrari

both being so close, it's actually quite exciting again. It for, I think Formula One has had a few years of really uninteresting racing because so much of, as you said, so much mechanical, so much of it is in the car now, unless it's in the driver, but back then you really got to see the difference. Yeah, I think that was an era when the force of personality And you think about the difference in personalities of sena, prost, and mantle, right? But whether, I mean, are the other ever stronger personalities on the face of the planet and the force of personality

could lead to seemingly impossible things. And from my perspective, that was incredibly exciting to watch. I mean, what is the limit of human potential? In this arena where human potential, in terms of physical stamina, cognitive ability, reflexes, the kind of things that we most respect in people in terms of being able to do incredible things.

It's incredible things in the body, in the mind, and then putting those together. And then you put that together, you put that together with the force of personality. And I think, again, I think it gives us an insight into things that we usually don't see, like the depths of human struggles in wartime. And I do really believe it's also the depth of human struggle

in quiet situations that no one cares about. I mean, I really do believe that. I think that we get an insight not just into the people who, you know, in purple hearts, but I think also the people who persevere with nobody caring, right? And no one watching them. And I think in many ways, you know, that's one of the greatest models of bravery, and it might seem like odd or weird, or even forced to compare that to things

that these people did on a track under, the greatest crucible of bringing talent and ability in bravery to the fore. But I really, I do see those parallels that I think in many ways, there's a lot of parallels between these people that we're talking about, and people that I think in many ways, there's a lot of parallels between these people that we're talking about, and people that, no one knows their names, and they're struggling quietly.

They're struggling quietly for the next paycheck that puts food on the table, and they're struggling amidst whatever physical or emotional pain they have. And I really do mean that. I mean, again, I'm not trying to be forced about it, and I don't make come off that way, but I think even back when I was younger seeing this, I realized that there's, you know, there's that this is like human struggle under the microscope, but it's emblematic of all sorts of human struggle that, you know, that often is inaccessible to us because it's

in a place we can't go, which could be the quiet struggles of the unselibrated as much as it could be the battlefield. So one last driving question. I don't know if the video exists anymore on YouTube. I actually ended up just buying a copy of it because I was so excited. But rendezvous. Yeah, yeah.

So hopefully we'll be able to find a copy of it and link to it, but if we can't, and there's a good chance we won't be able to to I do recommend you go on Amazon and you splurge and just buy the DVD of Claude Lailouche his His very famous short film called rendezvous which you introduced me to when we were in medical school Yeah, I hadn't actually seen that. Well, that was like a I mean it was like the the automotive equivalent of a snuff film You know, I don't even know where I first saw that, but I think it was somebody who had some VHS copy of it.

You know, it was, I mean, it was, when we, when we first were watching it together, you know, it was this like legendary inaccessible thing. Yeah, that you'd heard about, but never seen. And I still remember we were at Piles House when you whipped out either the VHS or whatever and we somehow watched it. And I mean, we probably watched it 50 times

because you couldn't believe you were seeing this thing. So what's your best guess? Who is the driver? I have no idea. And part because I had these guesses, but now I think the knowledge of who it was or wasn't has kind of moved ahead. So, you know, my thought that it might have been Jackie X, for example.

Like, again, I don't know if like that's been entirely debunked and it clearly isn't. Um, De Paille, I believe De Paille was still alive at the time. And, you know, the thought of like, okay, who was incredible. It had to be someone who was an amazing driver pretty pretty fearless and had to know Paris like the back of their hand. Yeah and also in an era that I think Grande Vu is like one of the most amazing things filmed but I also you know there's a part of me that I don't want to sound like a schoolmime that wants to look they clearly put other people's lives at risk right so like in the craziness

of the 70s and in that era of really being untamed, you would need someone who would just be able to literally throw all caution to the wind about self and other, right? I mean, Lillouch was arrested when that film showed. And then because the thought was that he was driving, right? And it was shown, right? It's made to appear that he's driving, right? And it was shown.

It's made to appear that he's driving at the very end. Because he gets out of the car. He gets out of the car. But having now watched it 87 times on slow-mo, it's clear that he's superimposed. He basically sneaks in and looks like he's getting out, but he wasn't the driver. There's no way. Right. I mean, unless he was a closet Formula One driver, it's like, how could you be that,

like how could you be that adapted? Right? If you weren't like one of a handful of people, I mean that that would be my take on it again. Maybe that's wrong. But I think that's why people started looking to, okay, who are the formula one drivers who are like completely fearless would throw caution to the wind and no Paris and, you know, and then they were just kind of a handful of names. I mean, I love some day to know the definitive answer, but certainly watching it, again, I think that's emblematic of an era. Right, of an era when, I mean, I believe that it was the first time when cameras could be mounted in cars. Right, and you could have like stabilizing the ice.

Yeah, you had gyroscopic technology based on the first time. So the first time. And of course, to this day, there's still huge debate as to whether it was a Mercedes dubbed over a Ferrari, whether the Ferrari was dubbed over the Mercedes or if it was the actual Ferrari being driven. Right, and again, I don't know enough of me. I try and think about the sound versus the visual

synchrony, and it seems to me like, I'm not so sure how that could have been dubbed, right? But again, what do I know? Yeah, there's no dispute that the sound is that of the Ferrari. So you're right, the question is, I mean, again, this is, now we're getting so deep in baseball, it's like,

but of course, you and I are the only two listening. At the point, it's probably safe to say, there is not another person on earth that is listening. Now you and I are just talking and we happen to be recording. That's exactly right. Exactly.

Finan wants to know how boring, pedantic, and tedious our lives actually are. This is the perfect indicator, right? We're down to nuance and stuff like whether the fry was dubbed over the Mercedes or vice versa. Well, with that, I think it's really great that a podcast whose title is The Drive finally gets to have an episode, albeit a relatively short one that focuses on driving.

And there's no person I enjoy talking about driving with more than you. So that, thank you for that. Thank you. And I hope that, you know, we're going to have lots of things that for anyone who who managed to get through this part about driving and who finds themselves interested or wants to know more about it we're going to link to some unbelievable videos about all of these great personalities that we've discussed and if nothing else hopefully it gives you some appreciation of the amazing technical skill that goes into what these guys have done. Yeah

The amazing technical skill that goes into what these guys have done. Yeah. You can find all of this information and more at peteratiamd.com forward slash podcast. There you'll find the show notes, readings, and links related to this episode. You can also find my blog and the Nerd Safari at peteratiamd.com. What's a Nerd Safari you ask? Just click on the link at the top of the site to learn more. Maybe the simplest thing to do is to sign up for my subjectively non-lame once a week email, where I'll update you on what I've been up to, the most interesting papers I've

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