The Peterman Pod - Anthropic Eng Leader And Ex-Senior Director at Meta On Microsoft vs Facebook, Career Learnings

Episode Date: January 4, 2026

Fiona Fung currently supports the Claude Code team at Anthropic and was previously a Senior Director at Meta. She grew quickly through the ranks at Microsoft and Meta before joining Anthropic. I interviewed her about what she learned along the way.𝗣𝗼𝗱𝗰𝗮𝘀𝘁 𝗹𝗶𝗻𝗸𝘀:• Transcript: https://www.developing.dev/p/anthropic-eng-leader-and-ex-senior• YouTube: https://youtu.be/b5-d8u-c99s• Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/the-peterman-pod/id1777363835𝗧𝗶𝗺𝗲𝘀𝘁𝗮𝗺𝗽𝘀:00:00 - Intro00:38 - Impact vs team health03:04 - Managing managers for the first time05:31 - Advice on mentoring others06:55 - What you should use 1 on 1s for07:56 - Leaving Microsoft for Facebook10:59 - Microsoft vs Facebook culture12:01 - Why dogfooding is important 21:25 - Joining Anthropic27:23 - Feedback that changed her career28:43 - Advice for younger self29:14 - Outro𝗪𝗵𝗲𝗿𝗲 𝘁𝗼 𝗳𝗶𝗻𝗱 𝗙𝗶𝗼𝗻𝗮:• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/fionafung/𝗪𝗵𝗲𝗿𝗲 𝘁𝗼 𝗳𝗶𝗻𝗱 𝗥𝘆𝗮𝗻:• Newsletter: https://www.developing.dev/• X/Twitter: https://x.com/ryanlpeterman• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryanlpeterman/• Threads: https://www.threads.com/@ryanlpeterman• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ryanlpeterman• TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ryanlpeterman

in a world where you can be anything, be kind. This is Fiona Fung. She grew to a senior director by rising through the ranks of Microsoft and meta, and today she supports the Cloud Code team at Anthropic, and I asked her for everything she learned along the way. What are the things that stood out to you? That's different between Microsoft and Facebook. Definitely speed came to mind.

Oh my gosh, a sprint lasts a week? Like, usually a sprint for me was like four weeks. Was there ever a time where you received feedback, and it really changed your... career. Looking back, that's probably one thing I wish I'd done better at. Here's the full episode. Let's say there's some project. It's going to be really impactful, but team health is going to take a hit or vice versa. How do you make those calls? Oh, that's a really good one. We had quite a few of these in the Facebook Marketplace Days. I would say recognizing when a moment is really such that it's

almost existential. So Facebook marketplace, I definitely remember we had a couple of lockdowns or war rooms where it really became, wow, we really needed to focus, like, make sure, and actually that's one thing I like about lockdowns or war rooms. It allows a team to focus. Focus on what it is that we were really saying how to do and making sure we're focused on doing that really well. But it does come at a cost to team morale. So my advice is really have those deliberate tradeoff discussions with the team and leadership. Like I think looking back, that's probably one thing I wish I'd done better at

that in the early marketplace days in some of those war rooms, I wish we were also, yeah, just even more up. Like, we took a very aggressive goal for, I forgot if we cut it locked down a room because we changed a team names after a while, but we took a very aggressive growth goal. So we weren't going to exit

until we hit a certain growth number. And looking back, I think that like then that could have been like and that war room actually went on for like a really long time. If I had to time machine to do it all over, I probably would have like taken a look at that and be much more realistic of how long that was going to take, discuss like the, you know, the, you know, like morale and team health of the team and then just be very upfront with the team of, hey, we're going to go on this, you know, journey together. But this is how long we, you know, we think it's going to take. I mean, when I think of war room, I think of everyone. in a big room and it's for maybe a week for a launch or something like that. Yeah.

How long was that war room? Oh my gosh. It felt like at least two months. And that was what I mean. We took a growth goal. But I think at the time we were like, well, maybe it's a couple of, you know, fixes that we had to do. There were so many lessons learned. I still remember in that war and we launched 75 experiments at one time too when we were trying to.

And so, and we were in a literal, like there was a room in Menlo Park and a room in in Seattle. But I think that one no one knew. Going into we didn't realize it was going to take us that long, so that was definitely a lesson learned. At some point in your career in Microsoft, you became a manager of managers. I'm curious, what is the big pitfall that maybe you experienced or maybe like growing pain when you went from a frontline manager to someone who's managing others? It kind of like goes back to that partnership. Actually, I will share my story.

the first time I supported managers or became manager of managers, I guess, was with two different managers. One was manager for TypeScript team. And they, you know, they are brilliant, brilliant engineers, still probably one of the best compiler engineers I've ever worked with. And so I remember right in the beginning, I'm like, hey, it's like we were always like collaborating as a partnership. What are the things you're really strong at? What are the things I'm good at? And how do we divide and conquer. So I would say that's maybe one thing that's unique of when you start supporting managers and managers, like they are also going to have additional skill sets. That's not just ICs skill sets, also manager skillsets. So it's even more opportunities to figure out how you both can complement

each other and help each other where it's most needed. So that was one really good, you know, like just new approach that it was new compared to supporting all ICs. I would say the other, one that becomes even more important is building that trust but verify muscle. Because there's a lot of trust. As managers, we have a lot of responsibilities, leading teams. And but making sure that, you know, because I think sometimes you want miles to hear advice of, oh, delegates so it could scale a lot. If you delegate too much, but don't do the trust and verify, you lose touch with a project a little bit too much. So finding that right balance of, and some of that comes from experience, but also making sure encourage that really transparent conversation with folks you support. Like to all managers,

one thing I ask for is, please, you know, like let's have fast feedback with each other, but also let's be always super transparent about what's going out well and what's not going well. Like, you know that meme of the dog holding the coffee cup in a room of Fargo? This is fine. That's my nightmare of if something's like really that. I remember once I was supporting someone, I'm like, hey, how are things going? Hang out. And, you know, they're like, oh, it's fine. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm not doing fine. I'm impressed that you're doing fine. But it starts with just because if we can actually discuss, you know, things that are like, you know, how to really need help, that's how we can actually solve it for a team versus the, this is fine, dog meme.

You mentioned to be a good manager, you should enjoy growing others or mentoring others. And I'm curious now that you've done it for so long, do you have any tips on how to mentor others? I would start it with just a really explicit conversation with your mentee of what they're looking. for in the relationship. Like so for example, after three months of mentoring, what does success look like to them? Or after six months, what does it look like? Just so that then it's good, effective use of time for you both. I would also say another tip is there's a difference between mentoring and coaching. And sometimes making sure you have that explicit conversation to see what the other person's looking for. So in mentoring, for sure, you're like listening and trying to

dispel helpful advice. In coaching, you're actually acting as a mirror for the other person to help them discover the answers within themselves. So thinking about those two different modes as well could help. I see. Yeah, that's one thing I was curious is how much of it do you feel like should be driven by the mentee versus the mentor? I honestly, the most effective mentoring relationships, it comes from that goal being set by the mentee. And for sure, the mentor can help with like life experiences or even advice of different resources. But for all the folks out there, looking for mentoring relationship, I would say set really explicit goals for what it is that you're looking to receive out of the mentoring relationship. If you were to give advice to ICs on like,

what's the best thing you can do in one-on-ones? What would that advice be? I would say save status reporting and all that for some asynchronous form. If, you know, like, you know, here in Anthropic, a slack and so it could be a slack message or I like to create a one-on-one doc that is a living dog between both of us so that any async update we can just put in there. I would say save the actual one-on-one-one time for any conversations you want to have, whether it's you're curious about learning about something new or you think, hey, it's a good opportunity for me to, you know, like dig a little bit deeper into the work that I'm doing with my manager because there might be some interesting product conversations. Whatever it is, I would save the one-on-one time for those live

conversations and anything that status reporting, you know, you can feel free to use the asynchronous forms of communication. Yeah, I think I hear that a lot, but I still think a lot of people do status reports anyways in 101's. So going into working at Facebook at the time, what's the story behind you leaving Microsoft and joining Facebook? So definitely I've had a lot of friends that was really, really enjoying Facebook and they're great engineers. But there was always something I really wanted to finish at Microsoft. So, you know, like whether it was VisualSuit editor or debugger, the last project I was working on was JavaScript and TypeScript. So I really cared about, you know, being there with the team to get TypeScript 1.0 out the door. But then I got a ping

from Facebook in late 2014 from actually who ended up, you know, being my first manager of Facebook. We worked together on Visual Studio. And he's like, hey, I'm noticing people buying and selling products on Facebook groups and we're thinking of building a product around it. And we're going, get out of here. I mean, one of those groups. It was amazing experience. The first time I made meaningful new connections because in those days, Facebook for me was more about reconnecting with high school friends or coworkers.

I never created any new connections. But I told him, but I really wanted to, you know, be with a team to help, you know, finish TypeScript 1.0. But that was like the, like that was one big draw to Facebook. It was just this dream of enabling, something totally different from DevTools, but the just dream of enabling commerce on Facebook. Just because I really, like there were three things I really believed in that kind of starting with C to C commerce. Because I'm very mission driven. So in those days, I was passionate about, wow, if we can enable the style of commerce.

Number one, we're very fortunate in tech. You know, we can afford most things new and probably deliver it in six hours, like 24 hours. It's not even fast enough. Most of the world doesn't like that. And a difference of $5 or $10 can be a difference of can I afford it or can I not. You know, most folks can't afford things new. Like, or folks may not be able to afford things new and buying them used would be a way to be able to afford. That was one.

The second was environmentalist at heart. I feel like there's all these goods in the world. It'd be great if I can help work on a platform that enables those goods to get their second, third or fourth life. And the last one was just supporting small businesses. I really love local small businesses. I feel like they're the lifeblood of any community. So having a platform that enables someone to kickstart a business without first time to get a brick and mortar store,

I was really passionate. So that was all the mission. And so that was one big draw to join, you know, then Facebook in 2015. The other was I was by this point at Microsoft 11 and a half years. And I felt, oh, yeah, I've become reasonably proficient and being a Microsoft engineer in the Microsoft stack. But I realize if you take me outside of that bubble, there were so many things I didn't know.

And so part of it too was also doing, wanting to just make sure how I can learn to be an effective engineer when I'm not within the safe cocoon of the Microsoft ecosystem. After you got to Facebook and experienced the culture for a bit, curious, like what are the things that stood out to you where you saw that's different between Microsoft and Facebook? There were things that were definitely similar, like work with really great people,

people really passionate about what they're doing. Definitely speed came to mind. So Facebook Marketplace just operated. We were doing weekly updates at the time. The first version, it was actually on www.com. So I remember there were weekly updates. I remember going, oh, my gosh, a sprint lasts a week? Like usually a sprint for me was like four weeks.

at, you know, on Visual Studio. Back then, I thought that was already a short time compared to, you know, where it started. So definitely speed. Facebook also felt much smaller to me back then, especially coming from Microsoft. So there used to be this poster on the wall that says nothing at Facebook is somebody else's problem. And I really love that culture. It was no matter your role, if there was, you know, a problem, everybody leaned into help.

And so that was something I really, really loved and appreciated. When you eventually left Meta, I saw that there were, you know, you write this badge post and hundreds of people are kind of saying the reason why they enjoyed working with you. And I noticed several patterns of things that you had done where many, many dozens of people are saying, I really like that particular part of working with you. So I'd love to go on each of these and kind of ask you your thoughts on them. So the first one is on dog fooding.

A lot of people are saying they really appreciated you being a great partner and reporting problems in the product and using the products. So I'm curious, why do you do dog fooding as much as you do? And why is it important? Oh, I love. It's one of my favorite topics. So as I mentioned, my first job out of college was using Visual Studio to build Visual Studio. So, and I'm really grateful that I got to experience that. And I think that's where I've learned, oh, wow, yeah, I'm going to use a product every day that I'm building. So that's where that initially came from. And I feel It really gave, like, not only empathy for what our users are going through, but it really gives you a good pulse of the product. Plus, it was easy on VS because you're using VS to build VS.

But then I guess I carried that over to Facebook Marketplace. I remembered our first test launch was in the Seattle area and also Hawaii. And I remembered I would have a pile of things that usually we would have, you know, donated. And my husband was getting so annoyed. Like, why do we sell this post up? I'm like, no, I need good inventory for me to sell. Facebook Marketplace. And that was where actually it was super rewarding to not only in terms of using the product and gaining insights, also just inspiration from, you know, meeting users of

Facebook Marketplace and seeing that what you do makes a difference. So I think that just kind of carried throughout. So then, yeah, when I was on RL, it was a lot of dog fooding of our VR Quest Devices. Or I remember when we were first starting up Rayband Stories, which now became Reba Meta. It was actually during COVID. So then it was a lot of dog fooding, you know, devices from home. But yeah, like, and I think definitely as a manager, you don't get to code, you know, every day or nearly as often as one would like. But dog feeding the product, that's what enables you to experience what it is that your team is working on. And I like to think of it as my maker time. So, for example, in my last role working on VR product with Horizon OS,

Yeah, like anytime I was able to help us debug some hard-to-repro issue, that was my maker time, and I felt it was my little way to contribute to the quality of the product. Plus, I don't know why. The way my house is built, I was always able to repro certain floor hike books. And I was really happy at being able to, you know, get those logs. I noticed something different, too, when a manager or a leader dog foods kind of adds some urgency to the bugs as well. So there might be some thing that everyone kind of knows about but kind of gets lost. But then, you know, when you or boss or someone says, hey, this thing's broken, I can't use this.

It's a SEV, basically. You know, people are fixing it. So, yeah, it feels like engineering leaders can kind of like focus people on what matters. I would say that's also the thing I get the most feedback on when I, anytime I join a new team, even like including Instagram, like I would just get outweigh. reach from Eng to go, oh, it's awesome that you're using a product and you, you know, you care about what we do. So I also think as leaders, it's a great way to build, you know, relationship and rapport with your overall team. Do you have any tips on how to dog food, given you're so prolific? By the way, I love that on Facebook. We still have this X meta product feedback group,

so I'm still posting on that. So thanks in advance meta for responding to my feedback post. I would say, like, find a way to integrate into your life that, you know, brings you joy. Now here I'm super excited because I'm using cloud code to build cloud code. First time I've been able to ship production software in a really long time. And I forget how much fun it is to work on code and ship it and be able to see, you know, customer feedback. So here it's kind of easy again because, you know, it's just part of my day job. But I would say, for example, when it was working on VR, thinking about what is it that, I really enjoy in life and finding a way to incorporate that in VR.

So, for example, what I love to use the VR headsets was, one was working out. So supernatural. I love, love, love that experience. But the other one was opposite of the spectrum, super couch potato. I love to watch movies and knit while I, you know, so I would like to, like, you know, knit and watch movies while I'm wearing the VR headset. And those are just things that I enjoy and bring me joy. So it makes dog fooding even more enjoyable and less of a chore.

Or it shouldn't be a chore. I think when it becomes a chore, that's when you're like, oh, this is, you always want to try to keep it fun and engaging. But I would say to leaders, too, another effective way to dog food is do product sessions with your team. So on my last team in VR, we would do every Friday, me, my PM partner Carmen and my design partner, Andres, we would hold these almost like leadership dog feeding sessions of any feature that we think is about ready to ship. we put it on the headset and then give really fast feedback. So incorporating dog feeding that way also allows you to give really quick feedback to your team as well. Another thing that I saw like dozens of people saying is there were a lot of PMs that were saying, I really enjoyed working with you or directors of PM or various other PMs.

And so I'm curious, what's your tip on as an Eng leader, how to work well with product management? Oh, I would say, oh my gosh, I was really fortunate at Mata to work with so many amazing PMs. Really starting initially to go, hey, overall as our group, right, like it's a leadership group, what are we really setting out to do? And where do we each bring the strengths? Because there's always going to be more work than people. And so with product, like, you know, with my PM partners being up front going, okay, I got this and you got that, like that whole divide and conquer was great. I think all the PMs I work with also appreciated that I did use the product a lot. So a lot of our one-on-ones would also be just riffing on product discussions.

And so I think that also really resonated with my PM partners. I see. So another value of dog fooding. That's right. I see. And then I also saw just generally a lot of people calling out, I've seen a lot of badge posts at this point about an unusual amount of people calling out kindness and like in the culture of the orgs that you build. And I also saw that you wrote about kindness as well. I'm curious, like your thoughts on kindness

in engineering orgs and the value of it. Oh, I love it. Yeah, I think my last bullet in my badge post was in a world where you can be anything, be kind. Right. It probably comes from, I remember during COVID. I mean, during that time, I was working on AR and VR operating systems.

We were trying to ship Quest II during COVID. We were getting incubating like rebrand stories and getting ready to ship that too. It was just everybody, especially when you work up with devices and you don't have an office or a lab that you can get to as easily or you can't have firmware engineers next to software engineers next to electric country as a debug. Everybody really did so much to make those products happen. But with COVID, everybody was also going through a lot at home. So I think that was when I really, and I remember personally for me, where it really struck home was, for me, one-on-ones are really important. I always want to try to make them. And my grandmother was living in Canada in an assistant living facility.

And because of COVID, I couldn't travel to go visit her. And they actually, no one could, you know, go into the nursing facilities during that time. And so the only way to have time with loved ones in that nursing home was FaceTime. but they were also super strapped on, you know, nurses and helpers. And so there are very few slots that you could get a FaceTime slot where, you know, someone can go in with an iPad. And you never knew when it would happen. And I remembered I literally my aunt messaged me an hour before to go,

okay, we got a FaceTime slot with Grandma. But it was going to be with one of the one-on-ones I was supporting. And I felt really bad to say, hey, I'm so sorry. Last minute, I knew we were going to discuss all these important things, too, because we were both looking forward to it. but I said, my grandma, I get this FaceTime slot with her. Is it okay for us to, you know, cancel? Remember him saying, oh, yeah, sure, no problem.

And I think for him it was, he probably didn't even think of that as an act of kindness. Like for him it was, but for me, it had such amazing impact, like more than probably he would have known because I was really struggling with, do I chat with grandma or because I never want to cancel a one-on-one. So that was kind of when it started. And so it comes from everybody's, probably going through a lot in their lives. We never know what somebody is going through. And so, and work is we're all trying to, you know, like do our best and trying to do epic things, which are

not going to be easy. So, yeah, always thinking about in a world where you can be anything, be kind, just because we're all going through things that, you know, like none of us have, have an idea about. Transitioning to your experience at Anthropic. I'm curious, what excited you about Anthropic over all the other options and why did you join? Oh, so I was, as you could tell, I must do a big VR fan. So I actually really loved working at Meta and on VR on Horizon OS. And so I wasn't even looking for a new adventure. So there were no, I guess the only option would have been joined Anthropic or stay working on VR. Yeah, because I was really happy working with amazing people, working on a product. I'm really passionate. So I feel very lucky about that. And so yeah,

internally I was also using DevMate underneath. I think it was a Sonop model to build some tools to help all that work. And so I saw firsthand how this is just transformative. And I think at first you might hear about it on the news, but until you experience it, it's not like a future thing. It's already here. It's already changing how we work. So I was always very passionate about the space.

But it was still hard for me to say farewell to meta. But it was just the more and more people I talked with that anthropopause. I was really drawn to how mission-oriented everyone was. That actually reminded me of one reason why I joined Facebook and Facebook Marketplace back in 2015. And yeah, being that environment where everybody is so mission-aligned and all-in just to make sure we can build AI that benefits humanity with safety first. I was just really impressed with that mission-orientedness. And it really appealed to, I love working on teams where everyone's mission-driven. and one-team mentality.

So that was, yeah, like, that was probably the biggest draw for why then I said farewell to meta and joined Anthropic. When you started at Facebook, it was very mission-driven. Did the culture change over time when you were at Facebook or meta? I think over time, the culture definitely, and by the way, I think culture does change because it's a living, breathing thing. I used to give these, you know, Facebook AMA boot camp talks. And I said, remember, culture is not just a poster on a wall.

It's through your actions. So definitely, and it makes sense. Like as Facebook grew, I think culture change. I would say in terms of the mission drivenness, there were still folks that are very passionate about what folks do. Like so, for example, everybody who on VR really wanted to make VR successful. So that theme was still there. And I think it's always important to, yeah, go back.

back to, hey, what are you passionate about? Actually, I remembered, I started feeling this way. It was around 2017. A lot of boot campers would, you know, asked me when I would take the Facebook Seattle Shuttle in those days, hey, I'm a boot camper. Can I chat with you? Get you some advice. I'm looking for which team to join. And a lot of it was just which team do you think I can have the most impact? And I remember saying, hey, but what are you passionate about? You join to do something because there's something you're passionate about or some mission you believe in. And so that's why I think it's always important to think about, yeah, what is that passion or what is the mission? When is passion about? If you could have both, it's a no-brainer, like a team where there's impact and there's

passion. But if you had to make the trade-off, like, you know, one versus the other, and you're advising someone who's joining a company, what would you say, like how to navigate that? So, like, a less impactful role, but you're really passionate or, you know, it's extremely impactful, but you're like, I don't really want to. You know, actually, I would say have that honest conversation with yourself. And so with one-on-ones, I like to, anytime I'm supporting someone new, I mention I like to ask them, hey, do you look for a manager partnership? What's worked well?

What hasn't worked well? Another tool I use is then I ask, hey, what's important to you? And what's motivating to you and what? And there's no right answers or wrong answers. But I use that to learn what is important to someone because it. it's different for everyone. So for a person, it might be the really, I really want an impact or I really want to learn or really want to work with great people.

Like, just making sure you're sharing that with your manager so that you're not either guessing what's important to the other person when it may or may not be important. So you've been onboarding at Anthropic for two months at this point. I'm curious, is there any interesting insights in your onboarding or things that really stand out to you? Oh, definitely. I talked so much about mission. So before I joined, everybody that I met in the interview, loops were great. And you do wonder, wow, is everybody truly this mission driven? Or is it,

you know, like a tagline? Starting from day one onboarding, you see, oh, yeah, being a mission driven to build AI that benefits all of humanity with safety first. It's this big responsibility that's really on top of mind for everyone. So that was really, like it definitely was, okay, yeah, this is core part to the culture and DNA and not just a slogan. So that definitely stood out. I would say joining Claude Code, the speed. I mean, I thought, I remember Marketplace days where I felt we moved really fast. Like Claude code, I mean, it could be a time warp or maybe, like, it just feels even faster.

So that speed of iteration of, and we're really fortunate on ClaudeCode. because Anthropic, you know, everybody, you know, Ant Foods cloud code. So we have a really, really high, you know, high amount of like feedback. And so that loop of, I have an idea, let me build, let me launch internally. Okay, let me get feedback from Antfooders. Okay, now let's launch to public and continue with the feedback. That, like, rapid iteration loop has really impressed me. And it's definitely something that's top of mind for me as we grow our team to keep up that agility and speed.

Coming to the end of the interview, I want to ask you a few career reflections. Was there ever a time where you received feedback and it really changed your career? And if so, what was the feedback? I would say actually one of the most pivotal feedback I ever received was how to receive, was feedback on receiving feedback. So we're engineers. You know, we like to set breakpoints and debug. And earlier on at meta, and, you know, when someone would get you.

give feedback. I'm like, oh, I definitely want to get better. Let me ask more questions so I could debug the situation and replay the situation and figure out how I can improve. And someone gave me really good feedback of, hey, when someone cares enough to come to you for constructive feedback, it's already uncomfortable enough. Make sure that that first session, you're just in read-only mode, just to learn and listen. You may have questions, but save it for another day because it's already uncomfortable for that person. You don't want to anyone to ever feel like they have to justify the feedback. And so just pay attention, you know, like just give yourself the space, pay attention, listen. And that night, like, even if you have questions, hold into the next day. Like,

give yourself time to sit with the feedback and reflect. And that's been like some of the best advice because that really changed my approach of, you know, how to give and receive feedback. And then last question is if you could go back to when you just entered the industry and give yourself some advice, what would you say? I'm going to say, enjoy the ride. Like, you know, Michael Abras used to say, these are the good old days. So I would say, yeah, enjoy the ride and these are the good old days because you look back and everything happens so fast.

Like, sometimes you don't look back and really enjoy the moment as you're living in. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time, Fiona. I really appreciate it. Thanks for coming by. It's awesome catching up again. Thanks for listening to the podcast. I don't sell anything or do sponsorships, but if you want to help out with the podcast,

you can support by engaging with the content on YouTube or on Spotify if you want to drop a review, that will be super helpful. And if there's any guests that you want to bring on to, please let me know. I feel like sourcing very senior ICs. There's no well-studied list out there on Google that I can just search this up. So if there's someone in your org or at your company who you really look up to and you want to hear their career story, let me know and I'll reach out to them.