The Ramsey Show - App - $110,000 in Student Loans and 22 Credit Cards?! (Hour 2)

Episode Date: December 19, 2023

Девочка-пай Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. Jade Walsh, our Ramsey personality and author of the brand new book, Money's Not a Math Problem, is my co-host today. As we answer your questions about your life and your money. Merry Christmas! We're so glad you guys are with us.

Thanks for hanging out. Christy starts this hour in Louisville, Kentucky. Hi, Christy. Welcome to the Ramsey Show.sey show hello hi how are you doing great thank y'all for taking my call really appreciate it sure what's up okay well i used to be a single mama three divorcee and my plan was after I got the kids out of the house, because my budget was really tiny, to start tackling my student loan debt and purchase my house that I live in for my parents for what they put in it to get it going for me. And two years ago, and kids are out of the house now, so two years ago, I've remarried. And I knew my husband had some credit card debt from his prior marriage. However, and I know things have been tight since we've been married.

It's like we're robbing Peter to pay Paul, robbing Paul to pay Mary. And after listening to y'all for the last couple weeks, I'm here like, I can do this, do the budgeting app, the every dollar, the free version. We can do this. However, we sat down. He's got 22 credit cards. Ay, ay, ay.

Well, how much does it total? Well, that's an oh, crap moment. Oh, I'm sorry. That's an oh, crap moment. Yeah, so this is where a lot of our money is going to. Yeah, I think. Yeah. Yeah.

How much does he owe on these 22 credit cards? $18,000. And I guess he knew this. I'm assuming he did. I hope he did. What was his reaction to your reaction? He's like, well, maybe, you know, after the holidays, take a debt consolidation loan.

Yeah, because you can always borrow your way out of debt. Right. That's dumb. Okay, what was his reaction? Was he ashamed of this? Does he think it's stupid? Did he feel defensive? He was kind of defensive on it a little bit because a lot a lot of it he said came from his

prior marriage so he's not is he currently using credit cards or is all old he's at this past weekend he's still using them yeah okay put a battery in his car. So you guys have some conversations to have. So what is your income and what is his income? Okay. Mine is $33,000 a year. He's doing DoorDash. So it's anywhere. Why is he not working? Five to six days a week.

Why has he not got a job? That's a good question. He likes working on his own, he says. Did he have a job when you met him, or he was doing this when you met him? Whenever I met him, he was doing lifting Uber in Asheville. Okay. And making $1,200 a week on that. Gross, before taxes, gasoline, and wearing tear on the car. Exactly. He might be

breaking even. Okay, so there's some problems here. How much student loans do you have, by the way? $110,000. Okay, so sometimes when we get into into debt it's as easy as saying all right i make my budget and i cut back here and there and i you know over time i'm out of it and then sometimes there's more to the equation where there's an income side of it where you can side hustle till you're blue in the face and you're going to be working it forever and in that case that's kind of where you guys are. Your core income is not where it should be. And the challenge here is for both of you guys to really begin looking at what's it going to take for me to get my income higher. I mean, $33,000 is, the average is $67,000.

So you see where you're at on that spectrum. What do you do for a living? Customer service. Who got $110,000 worth of student loans? That's me. And getting a degree in what? Psychology and counseling because that was the quickest thing I could get. I've always wanted to teach. And why are you not utilizing that in some way um i really don't know if any job in our in our little local area for that degree without getting a master's yeah okay it is probably limited because if you're going to do

counseling in most states you do have to have a master's okay yeah but there's not there there's a lot of things you can use psychology for. For instance, you can move into the marketing area of a company and make three times what you're making. So Jade's right. How old are you two? Your kids are grown. You're 40 or 50.

Yeah, I'm 46. He's fixing to turn 50. Okay. All right. Yeah, I'm 46. He's fixing to turn 50. Okay. All right. So this is the time that you all have the first most lucrative careers of your lives, and the both of you have to decide what that is and start working on it. You don't want to be an 80-year-old Uber driver. This is not a plan. You don't want to be an 80-year-old Uber driver. This is not a plan.

You don't want to be doing DoorDash at 76. This is not a plan. You don't want to be in customer service at 76, especially when you're looking at 110,000 student loans and 18,000 credit cards, and everything you do, like put a battery in your car looks like more credit card debt something's got to change would you agree oh yes yeah so i i'm with jade i think you guys do need to get on the same page and i think you need to make a commitment to borrow no more and to begin to reduce these debts and you're going to have to rethink both of your careers

because you're going to struggle this is going to be very hard 20 years in front of you very difficult if you guys do not deal with this core issue you can try to ignore it but it's going it's the elephant in the room it's going to stomp around and leave the furniture broken. Yeah. Is this making sense to you? Yeah. You've avoided this and kicked the can down the road as long as you can, and now the can has come home and hit you in the back of the head like a boomerang.

Mm-hmm. $110,000 on student loan debt. How long ago were you in school? Graduated 2009. No, 13. 15 years was my guess. I wasn't far off. Okay.

Yeah. See, it's time to deal with this. Do you agree? Oh, yeah. Kids are grown and gone. Okay. So we're going to get out the credit cards. We're going to have a plastic surgery party tonight, honey.

We're chopping them all up. Every stinking one of them. This has to end. That's how I would have reacted had we found this. Okay? It wouldn't have been as nice as you. You're a little sweeter than me. This is stupid.

It has to stop. How about that one? Let's try that. You're a little sweeter than me. This is stupid. It has to stop. How about that one? Let's try that. I like it. There we go. This is The Ramsey Show. Jade Warshaw, Ramsey personality, author of Money's Not a Math Problem, our latest quick read release, 57 pages.

You can blow through it, one setting, and you will learn a lot from Ms. Jade. Check it out at the RamseySolutions.com store right now. The Ramsey Show Question of the Day is sponsored by Neighborly, your hub for home services. There are some things around the house you can handle yourself, but electrical problems probably aren't on the list. Contact Mr. Electric for licensed professionals. That's what you want there.

You don't want the, you want the licensed professional. It's a good idea. Yeah, they'll give you upfront pricing and they'll take care of you from your neighborhood. Mr. Electric online at neighborly.com slash Ramsey. Today's question comes from Arlo in Texas. Are those companies that say they will help you deal with the IRS legit? My husband and I had several years of unfiled taxes in fear that we owe the IRS a huge amount of money. Can those companies who claim that they can stop the IRS from

garnishing your wages actually do it? Well, I'm just wondering why you're waiting till you get to the point of garnishing of wages. Why not just dig a little deeper, contact the IRS and find out what you owe and pay it. And by the way, if you're in baby step two, if you're working on paying off your debt, this is going to go right to the top of the list. This is going to be numeral uno,

nothing ahead of it. I would change one thing in that suggestion we're not going to contact the irs we're going to contact a tax professional and file our taxes well yeah you gotta file your taxes tell the irs what you owe they're not going to tell you what you don't want to ask the irs anything because they don't know either they're dumber than a rock that is true they send those statements yeah they just make up crap. Yeah. So but no, you need to catch up on your tax filings and figure out where you are. And the answer to your question is no, those companies don't work. Yeah. Okay. So here's the thing. If you file your taxes and get caught up, the likelihood of you being criminally charged for failure to file is very

low. When you come forward, come out of the cold, so to speak, get back on the grid, so to speak, and file your taxes, they very seldom criminally charge you. Because failure to pay the irs is not a criminal offense failure to file is a criminal offense so about 2572 people or something like that every year last year it's 27 572 get put in jail for not filing their taxes it is is a criminal offense. Okay? So you don't want to screw around with this. You need to, right now, before Christmas, immediately, get online at RamseySolutions.com. Click on our tax professionals, our ELPs, our endorsed local providers for taxes. Get your crap together. Go over there and get your taxes filed immediately immediately even if you don't pay them a dime

and you don't have a dime that's right that's step one get rid of the probability of a criminal issue then we'll deal with the mathematical issue of can they garnish e-wages and are there reductions okay so let's get into that for just a second because people are spending more time at home during the holidays and watching cable tv and cable news where you see we have our former irs agents working for us and we can reduce your tax burden if you have ten thousand dollars or more in irs debt contact us and we'll make your life okay in the fine print it says bull, okay? So, because that's what it is. So, here's the deal. That you can have a tax professional represent you that is not on cable TV, and they can help you with the process.

There's a couple things you can do. Thing one is what Jade said, scratch the money together and pay them. If you're not anywhere near that, at least contact them, and you can get on a payment plan. Yeah. It's ridiculous penalties and ridiculous interest. not anywhere near that, at least contact them and you can get on a payment plan. Yeah. It's ridiculous penalties and ridiculous interest. You don't want to do that.

If you can get the money anywhere else, including borrowing it somewhere else and changing your IRS debt into credit card debt, I would have you do that because it's a better deal. Hey, say that again, because I told somebody that one time and they had my head for it. No, you've got one kind of debt that's bad debt. I would rather you have a different kind of debt that is better debt. I agree. Okay, let me just tell you, credit card debt is bankruptable. Credit card debt has to go through a legal process to garnish your wages. IRS debt is not bankruptable. IRS debt has a higher interest rate than credit card debt has irs debt can wage can garnish your wages without going to court they don't have to get a judge's permission all other

forms of debt have to do have to so this is the worst kind of debt to have so if you can make it into another kind of debt you got a twenty thousand dollar irs debt i would a lot rather you owe twenty thousand dollars on a credit card than twenty thousand dollars to the kgb amen amen okay and if you guys don't like j saying that, well, you're stupid. Okay? So Jade was right when she said that. Don't be stupid, okay? It makes life painful.

So now the next thing is this. You do the payment plan. Now, the other thing they say is we can reduce your tax burden. Bull. Yeah, they'd have to do something shady no there's one way you can do it legally but it's so thin and narrow is the door it's called an oic an offer and compromise and you can submit to the irs your situation and ask that they accept less than the actual tax debt. Try to get them to settle with you. Like as a hardship? Yep. When do they approve an offer in compromise to take your $100,000 debt and allow you to pay 20 instead? Okay. Well, you'd have to prove that. You have that you have nothing yeah no income no potential for income no assets no house no car no money you are what they have to prove what they call pauper status wow poor people you got to be

homeless basically penniless and then they will approve a compromise because they don't think they're going to get their taxes anyway but i'm'm telling you, to get an OIC through, and I've gotten a few of them through. I've worked with clients over the years that were in hardship situations and had massive tax bills, and we worked with tax attorneys that we paid good money to, not some goober on cable television, okay? And you can get an OIC through. But I'm telling you out of a hundred that I work on or I've worked on over the years I've gotten three or four through it just doesn't

happen yeah okay you don't want to be on that status well you got the things you that you know it's like well I it's inconvenient inconvenient they don't care if it's inconvenient you have a car sell the car and pay me you have a house sell your house and pay me they don't care if you're homeless you don't care your grandmother's diamond brooch they don't care sell it they want to know everything and not revealing assets to them in this process is also criminal fraud yeah so this is just is you're just playing with tiger here you don't deal with these people what you want to do is get your taxes filed get on a payment plan roll up your dadgum sleeves and clean up your mess and quit looking for easy fixes for major stupid stuff usually major stupid stuff comes with major problems to fix it yeah

there's no quick and easy you don't get out of debt quick it took you 20 years to make the mess it didn't go you're not going to get out in 20 minutes and for the self-employed people that are listening pay your dad gum taxes just file your quarterly please just do it and and and if you don't want to do it yourself invest a little bit of money and just hire a bookkeeper to stay on top of this and make sure that that is going through properly for you i'd rather pay them a little bit of money every year then deal with a tax burden and deal with getting myself in hot water with the irs i'm just i'm 1099 and i forgot i had to pay tax you forgot you know i mean this is what they i made a hundred thousand bucks

i paid no taxes for two years that means you made two hundred thousand bucks that means you have a tax bill of 50 grand laying around or more and so you know that's a lot you do not want to have this crap sneak up on you it's not really sneaking up on you you're just pretty much uh we just discovered denial is not just a river in egypt you totally stuck your head in the sand how's that okay so let's make it clear dave because we say all the time don't don't use a professional for this don't use a guy for this but use a guy for this so make it clear we're not use cable tv people to fix anything in your time, don't use a professional for this. Don't use a guy for this, but use a guy for this. So make it clear. Do not use cable TV people to fix anything in your money.

We don't do consolidation. If the commercial runs between Snuggies and walk-in bathtubs, it's not a credible operation. Okay? Hello. Not Snuggies. Think about it. If your financial advice comes between walk-in bathtubs and Snuggies, you've got bad financial advice.

I'm just telling you, okay, that this is what you've got. Think about what's going on around you, okay? This is The Ramsey Show. Jade Walsh, all Ramsey personality is my co-host today thank you for joining us america merry christmas to you i'm dave ramsey the phone number here is 888-825-5225 williams in charleston west virginia hey william how are you i'm doing pretty good today can you you hear me, sir? Yes, sir. How can we help? All righty, Dave. I'm William. I'm 25 years old. I make $90,000 a year as a truck driver. I'm currently on baby step two with, I would say, less than $10,000 of debt, a vast majority of that being medical, no credit card debt. My cars are paid off and my wife, she's 25 working part-time and

she's able to go to college for free through my employment. And our ultimate goal is we are wanting to, in two years, be able to homestead and start our family. And what I've came across and I've heard is to consider looking at getting a homestead property under a business or LLC loan, because it's a lower interest on the loan than most mortgages right now, and it could allow that property to be more of a tax advantage with being able to write off different things and different equipment for the homestead. I was wondering what your opinion was with this. Well, to start with, it sounds like you're reading people that are proponents of homesteading

and reading lots of articles and hanging out with folks that do a lot of homesteading. And so it made you susceptible to reading this stuff because that's not mainstream information and it's also not accurate. Okay. So having an LLC and getting a business loan is a higher interest rate than a mortgage, than a personal mortgage rate. So when you say homestead, you're talking about buying a piece of ground with a house on it that you're going to live in and raise animals and food and so forth, correct? Yes, sir. Okay. So what you need is you just need to go get a mortgage and buy your house with some property with it. It's going to be

cheaper. And it is not your personal residence interest. I mean, is not a deductible business expense under any circumstances. Now, if you operate a business on a piece of property that is your residence, for instance, let's say you bought, I don't know, make it up, 30 acres, and you put some cattle on there, okay? Yes, sir. The cattle operation is a business, and you can deduct expenses associated with raising the cattle, but not expenses otherwise.

So it does not need to be a LLC? No. You could buy five cows, okay, and sell them at a profit and deduct the vet bills and deduct the feed and deduct if you had a piece of equipment you were handling the cattle with. You could maybe depreciate that piece of equipment, okay, to the extent you use it on the cattle. But if you buy a truck and once a year you touch a cow with it,

you can't write the cow off except one day a year, one 365th of the truck. So it's a useless bunch of crap to try to write your truck off okay but if you've got a very specific piece of information that is a livestock trailer and the only thing it is used for ever is to transport cattle in or out of your operation then that that trailer could be either expensed or depreciated, depending on the particular portion of the tax code. But you could do all of that as a sole proprietorship.

You don't need an LLC. You can do it. It's called a Schedule C on your taxes. Schedule C is a small business. And a small business, you write on there what your income from the business was, what the expenses from the business were, and what the profit, the income minus the expenses is the profit, and the profit is taxable. So you have deducted, you've had a deduction for the expenses on the Schedule C.

Does that make sense? Yes, sir. And you do not need an LLC to do that. Okay. This is the first time I'm hearing of a Schedule C business. Yeah, it's called a sole proprietorship. You would open a separate checking account at your bank, Cattle by William or William Smith or whatever your last name is,

DBA, doing business as Cattle by William. It has your Social Security number on it. You don't even need a tax ID number for it. And then run all of your business income from the cattle into that account all your business expenses out of that account and everything that's written down about that account ends up going on the schedule c and thereby you have deducted your expenses from the income that the cattle created but it's not a faux tax deduction that you get on your lawnmower because you're homesteading you don't get that okay does that make sense yes sir homesteading amounts to i'm

going to grow some of my own food and i'm going to grow some food and sell it to other people right yes sir okay the food you grow for your own use no tax deduction the only savings you get is you get really good food a and b you get uh cheaper food agreed yes sir i've been looking at homesteading with uh my wife as we're getting more and more into the bible and i'm reading a lot more about how everybody back then were was having farms and getting food and i think one financially it might make sense and two it is the best quality that i feel like i can get to give my future children hey being a kid being raised on a farm is about as good as anything can be they know how to work they know how to get dirt under their fingernails they know where babies come from i mean everything it being on a farm is a good thing right and it's just uh when all

of america has spent some time on a farm uh three generations ago this was a better place and so i completely agree with you uh from a common sense perspective. I mean, we can bring the Bible into it if you want, but I just think it's a great place to raise kids. I got no issue with it at all. I mean, my kids are suburbanite kids, and they survived because I made them do work. But, I mean, what you're talking about is a fine standard of living,

a fine way of doing things. But there are no magic tax pills that go along with it or better interest rates that go along with it you're just buying a small farm to operate for your family i mean it's the same principle that rolls into anything else i mean if you even if you operate you know a business from your home or you work from your home there's a certain amount but it's not everything like it's only what is directly related to that business well and here's the problem like for instance can you write off a home office at home sure yeah you buy a three hundred thousand dollar house and it's three thousand square feet and you have a three

hundred square foot bedroom okay well that's ten percent of your house ten percent of the three hundred thousand oh wait we got to take out the lot because you can't depreciate the lot so the lot is a hundred thousand of the 300,000 so now it's only 200,000 now it's only 20 so and then you divide all of that by 27 years and oh by the way when you get ready to sell the house you have recapture all of that depreciation you took is added back as a taxable event when otherwise if you had sold your personal residence a hundred percent of your growth on the income or growth on the value would have been tax-free so screwing around writing off your home one of your bedrooms as a home office ends up actually being a stupid idea that's a good point dave but i think in long term yeah but i mean because when it comes back to bite you when you sell it because you got a hundred percent recapture on that appreciation it's good point

you took so it's just you know and people don't go i wrote all i'm gonna write up you can't write off that you can only write off what actually is attributable to the actual function of the business and home office or homesteading you know just because you saw it on tiktok it doesn't it does not change any you know it's not real we actually have a great article on rs.com about that very thing we do yeah we do i i i bylined it so oh written by jade it's on there check it out yeah about knowing what to write off and knowing what not to do and just all that good stuff so you if you have a chance check it out um now here's the thing homesteading is a great idea running a business and starting it up out of your house great idea yeah doing either one of them for

the tax benefits dumb idea there we go yeah i'm with you on that is the ramsey show jade washall ramsey personality is my co-host today thank you for being with us america merry christmas parker is in portland oregon hey parker how are you i'm good how are you better than i deserve what's up uh so i just bought my first house six months ago and i just wanted to get your opinion as to whether um or not I should turn it into a rental to start paying it off faster. No. No. No.

How old are you? 21. What's the house worth? $245,000. What do you do for a living? I'm a tax accountant. Okay. What are you making? $63,000. What do you do for a living? I'm a tax accountant. Okay. What are you making?

$63,000. So you can pay the bill, right? Yeah. Do you have any other debt? No. Good for you. Okay. So the first thing I do is just sit down, do a budget, and pay your house payment, enjoy the house.

Sounds like it's a very nice property. How many bedrooms it's not as big as you sound it's just a two bedroom two bathroom and unit condo okay all right um well i mean at 21 years old it's a pretty impressive purchase okay if uh if if you want to put in a roommate to try to help you with the cash flow that that's not a bad idea or an unusual idea um but no i you do not mean to be a landlord in order to pay your house off faster that that's going to work backward landlord is expensive people tear up stuff. I was going to say, moving back into a house that you've turned into a rental for the last five years,

it's not the same house anymore or the same apartment in your case anymore. It's going to feel totally different. Okay. Are you not liking the property or are you not liking the bill? No, I can afford the bill and I love it, but I was just trying to think of, I was planning on moving in with my boyfriend in June and then turning it into a rental and then making extra principal payments on it. How long have you been dating the boyfriend? A year. I wouldn't do that. I definitely wouldn't do that. I like Dave's idea of getting

a roommate. I feel like that's the quickest way to get extra income in, make those extra payments that you want to pay so that you can pay down this mortgage quickly? What's your goal? When you say, I want to pay this down quickly, what's the timeline in your mind? Timeline is 10 years. Okay. I like that. You're 21. You're going to get there with no boyfriend and with no renters. And if your boyfriend turns into your husband we can have a different discussion but um if i were you now again you called us to ask what we would do and that's what we are we're duty bound to tell you based on the fact that um i am old and have experience i have to tell you these things so um and it's just like a rule and all i mean let's

talk about why though because when when you suggested the boyfriend thing, what came to my mind is I'm thinking if you go live with the boyfriend, if something happens, you guys break up, you broke up tomorrow night. You've got a renter in there who's under a year lease or however long the lease is. Now you're kind of homeless because you've got a renter and you and your boyfriend broke up that's what my brain immediately goes to what's your mind go to get married if it's time to get married um i was your age when i got married and we've been married 43 years and you know we've had lots of renters and all that kind of stuff so um you know uh actually sh Sharon and I were 22, but yeah. Yeah, same here. So that's the thing. So 42 years coming up, I guess it is. But anyway, yeah, I would just tell you,

if this guy is worth doing all this for, he's worth marrying, and if you're worth all this, then you're worth marrying. Or not, but don't make financial and economic decisions that are interwoven with people you're not married to. It gets you in all kinds of pinches, and one of them was just outlined by Jade right there. So you can do what you want to. I think you're fairly level-headed

and ahead of the game for a 21-year-old. You purchased a property. You're a tax accountant. You're making $65,000 a year. You're living in Portland, Oregon on your own. You're making it. Life is good. I think you got a lot on the ball. You sound like you're really sharp. Don't blow that by trying to speed something up artificially, whether it's the relationship or whether it's the pay down of the house. Just be the tortoise, don't be the hare. Be steady. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. As a tax accountant, if you're doing accounting for individuals, you are going to discover people that tried to get rich quick and how quickly they went broke.

And I'm trying to keep you from that side of the equation because you seem to be very wise beyond your years and um i want to keep you back on the side of the equation that somehow your parents got you on to start with and i want to keep you there if i if you know so if i sound like an old fogey then chalk it up to the fact that i'm an old fogey so there you go open phones at 888-825-5225. And, Jade, truthfully, I mean, the truth is this, okay? If you call into this show, our duty-bound thing is to love you. That's right. Enough to tell you the truth.

And sometimes that's funny and sarcastic, and sometimes we're a little mean uh and sometimes we tell you oftentimes we tell you something you didn't want to hear it's not unusual either that's right but um you know our goal is not to we're not taking a poll for popularity no we just want the best for you actually help you that five years from now you go you know i wish i had done what they said or i'm really glad i did what they said uh because they know stuff i didn't know and they've been down roads i haven't been down and they've helped people uh in more complicated situations than i'm in and so it's what we do that's right it's what we do we spend our whole lives doing this stuff

and we're heavily invested in it intellectually, emotionally, spiritually, prayerfully, financially, everything. We're invested in this. That's right. And so never confuse that we're doing anything here except out of an act of love. We love doing this. We love helping people. And we love you guys. We want you to win.

And if that freaks you out, hey, that's okay. We love that emma's in milwaukee emma what's up in your world hey dave hey jade how are you guys doing today better than we deserve how can we help awesome super excited to talk to you guys today my question for you is i recently got a promotion and it over doubled my income. Wow. What are you making? About 150 right now.

Wow. How old are you? 27. You're way to go. Love it. I don't want to tell you what I was making when I was 27. It wasn't that much. How can we help?

Yeah. So basically this has brought me to step baby step four a lot quicker than I was anticipating. I am a master at baby step one, two, three. However, um, so I had my two to six month emergency fund saved away. I also had a little extra on top of that totaling in 23 grand. Um, I'm single. I currently rent. I have no kids, no other major payments.

Been living low maintenance for quite a while now. What I'm wondering about is how to go about investing properly. I can give you some of my company's 401k situations. And then also on top of that, is it a wise decision to purchase land from my family farm right now through a land contract? Well, let's start. You're doing everything right. Go ahead. I was going to say, well, let's start with the investing side right go ahead i was going to say well let's start with

the investing side of it yeah how about that so my my company will match my 401k contributions at the rate of 25 cents onto the dollar up to eight percent okay they also offer a roth that they will match eight percent let's do that do that okay and you're going to put up to baby step four you know this stuff emma 15 of your income and you're going to put up to baby step four. You know this stuff, Emma, 15% of your income. And you're going to put it in four types of growth stock mutual funds, growth, growth and income, aggressive growth, and international. On the other thing, never do a land contract because you do not have title to the property.

And if you paid the property down in half and have half equity and the person who actually owns the property gets in a car wreck gets sued they have a lien against a property that they own you don't own it but you have a contract they can't deliver on so you never do a land contract if they want to deed it to you and give you a mortgage you can talk about that but no we're not doing any land contracts ever. Very weak position for the buyer. Very dangerous position for the buyer. Never do a contract for deed or land contract, which are the same thing. That puts us out of the Ramsey Show in the books. Thank you.