The Ramsey Show - App - Are You Making Stupid Money Moves in the Name of Desperation? (Hour 2)

Episode Date: September 25, 2023

Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. George Campbell, Ramsey personality, host of the Smart Money Happy Hour, co-host of it anyway, is my co-host. And he is also the host of the very popular new launch on YouTube, the George Campbell YouTube show. And that's Campbell with a K. You don't want to miss that.

Lots of snark there. I'm a big fan because I'm a big fan of snark. That's one of the reasons I'm a big George fan. Phone number here is 888-825-5225. That's 888-825-5225. That's 888-825-5225. Jennifer is with us in Austin, Texas. Hi, Jennifer. How are you?

Good. Good. How can we help? I wanted to find out. I have been looking for a house for about nine years, and I found one,'s kind of a flipper and it's about two million dollars so I didn't know if it would be wise in our situation okay let's just back up looking for a house for nine years is weird let's start with that okay we would love to build but here in Texas they do not license contractors so it's like almost impossible to manage a project here so I kind of have to just remodel something and hope that it's you know

we've got pretty good bones and the property is good so um why does that why does it take nine years to discover you need a general contractor to build a house no well we um, I do not want to build a house here because I'm in that industry, but I don't want to have to manage a project. And their contractors here, they're not licensed, so it's really hard to... They don't license general contractors in Texas? No. No, Google it. It's insane. I don't really work in Texas. No, it's kind of like the wild, wild west of construction. I don't even go into tall buildings here. If there are more than two floors, I won't go in them. Wow.

Yeah. Well, that's not general contractor licensing. That's engineering, and that's also weird. Okay. Okay, so you want to buy a house for $2 million that you have to fix up, and then you're going to flip it? Yeah, but I really love the land. No, I'm just saying like –

It's not a flipper then if you're not going to flip it. It's just you're buying a house that needs a lot of work. Yeah, it looks like flipper conditions. Yikes. Why do you want to buy this property then? Do you have the money? The property is beautiful. Well, that's what I want to talk to you about. I'm not sure. Because the way we've always purchased houses before would be completely different than this

purchase. We've always saved enough cash where we just did the tip. So we wouldn't do a jumbo loan. We'd do whatever the maximum was. Our first house was like 417. I think now it's up to like 500 and something before you go to a jumbo loan. And then we put cash down and then do a 15-year mortgage and do 20% down. And that's the way we've always bought our houses. But this one, just because I don't think we have enough, I think the payment would be too high because the interest rates are so high right now that we wouldn't, I think we would have to do like a 20 or 30 year mortgage. Oh, so what you're saying is you just can't afford the house. Well, I, that's okay to say that out loud, Jennifer. It's a $2 million house.

I know. Well, we, yeah. What is your income? What's the household income? Together, our base salaries is about $520. Okay. And the thing is, the reason we don't have a lot of money saved is because normally we don't work both at the same time. But just since I've been working a lot more the last few years, I've enjoyed it. So now I'm working all the time. What do you do?

I do global architecture. So architecture and interior design. I do work for an engineering an it company but it's construction engineering so i i do but i work for an it company building their facilities all over the u.s so your household income is 525 000 and why can't you put a two million dollar house on a 15 year? Because we've really been living beyond our, well, not beyond our means. We've lived within our means, but like we spent a lot of our savings.

Like my husband took two years off during COVID and we remodeled our house and we just did about a house. I bought a house for my daughter. We just like spent a lot of money and we normally have more savings and we don't have. What was that? I said, I i'm tired this is y'all you've been running a million miles an hour with nothing to show for it oh my gosh yeah so we well we've never really had this much income steadily we've had it for the last few years okay if you've had it for two years or more you can qualify for a 15-year mortgage and you can afford a 15-year mortgage.

I think we could. No, I know that we could qualify for a 15-year mortgage. Then you can afford it. We can qualify for that. No, no. Okay, sorry. Sorry, I didn't mean to say that. I just don't want our house payment to be that high because I know my husband will be against that.

So that's why I want to do like a 30 until the 20 or a 30 until the interest rates are lower. No, you take out a 15, and when the interest rates are lower no you take out a 15 and when the interest rates are lower you refinance and if you're not willing to admit that you're buying a two million dollar house to your husband you shouldn't buy a two million dollar house um so i can't make this not be not be two million dollars there's not a technique for that it's two million dollars and um i i got an i got a feeling your husband doesn't want to do a two million dollar fixer-upper either so i think there's probably more going on and you've kind of gotten this romantic idea that this land is beautiful and it makes this whole project worthwhile um i i don't know if you guys together want to sit down and look at the

trouble and the pain that doing a remodel is going to be that you're going to live in which is way different than doing one that you're not going to live in that's a lot of pain it's a lot of heartache it's like building a house except worse um you know remodels are just horrid and i've done a bunch of them and they're just even when you're not going to live in them they're a pain in the butt it's's easier to push it down and start again. And then emotionally easier, for sure. If you guys want to endure the pain of that, you have the financial wherewithal to do it, and you're willing to accept the reality of the payment that a $2 million loan takes on,

both of you, you and your husband, then go forward. But I got a feeling that there's in that in those guidelines i just gave you that you all are going to run into all kinds of trouble and you just you're wanting somebody to tell you you can't afford it um i think you can afford it i just don't think you want to afford it that's what i heard what'd you hear well i'm hearing a lot of stress and i don't know that this $2 million mortgage is going to alleviate any of that. And so they need to simplify their life, get their act together, figure out how to control the money that they're bringing in. But I would pause on this decision.

It does not sound like they're close to alignment. It's just all over the place. And there's also, I don't know, million-dollar houses in Austin that are great. So maybe we could start there. It doesn't have to be the two million or bust. So I think we have to back out and find out what all of the options are before we get starry eyed at one. Yeah. And I'll just go ahead and throw in here too, just to be straight with you, Jennifer, the idea that everyone in Texas that lives in a home or has a three-story building is incompetent and all of them are about to fall in because they don't license GCs is absurd.

Okay? Obviously, there's quality buildings in Texas that are not going to fall in. And obviously, I did not know they didn't license GCs, but that doesn't change anything for me. I've been in a bunch of houses in Texas that are wonderful properties. You're so brave. Yeah, i'm brave you went to the third floor and everything i did i've been to the 16th floor on my means scary you

know not not in a house but i mean golly come on girl seriously this is the ramsey show george camel ramsey personality is my co-host today. Thank you for joining us, America. Open phone, 888-825-5225. One of the things that we have to do when we're managing our money is we're managing our life. And we're making big decisions and lots of decisions. And when you find yourself making, here's some things that will tell you if you're making a wrong decision. Okay? Because making a wrong decision around money, particularly like a car purchase or a house purchase or something, some other big investment, deciding to go into crypto deciding to do something stupid along you know getting out of where you're getting ready to set yourself back

a decade by screwing up by making a bad decision see we always talk about wealth building and the things to do to build wealth i don't think we spend enough time probably on how to uh stupid proof ourselves so we don't do something stupid and offset all the good work we did right so one of the things i discovered about me and it turns out it's true of everyone is that right before i right after i get desperate i get stupid and right after i get stupid, I get broke. You know what I'm saying? There's a close connection. When you feel desperation, trapped, and your language will tell you that you're that way.

I was forced to. We had no choice. Buy a car. Never in the history of human races has that been true. You were not forced. They did not have a gun. They don't do reverse carjackings. It doesn't happen, right?

So it doesn't happen. So you weren't forced. You were in a desperate situation on transportation, and so you justified a dumb-butt decision to go to the tote-the-note lot and pay double for the car at a 28 interest rate because you and then say but i was forced you weren't forced you were just stupid i've been stupid too right i just explained it right after i felt desperate and trapped okay and so when listen to your language and if your language is indicating a sense of being trapped,

a sense that there is no other options, and your language to yourself in this decision-making or to your spouse who you're trying to talk into this is bizarre, then that tells you that you're getting ready to screw up. Okay? I'll give you another example we run into, George. Every property for rent in X town is $4,000 a month. Make up a number.

Fill it in. You can't find them. They don't exist. See, these absolute hyperbole statements are indications that you feel desperate and stuck. And so once you've decided inaccurately that every property for rent is $4,000 minimum in this town, then you can justify buying something you shouldn't be buying at a point in your finances that you weren't ready to buy you see what i'm saying yeah so when you start making these fatalistic absolute statements that are that are overstated then and when you say if it sounds bizarre to you then that tells you you're there and that was my that was my question with my i couldn't get it out of my mouth fast enough in that last call because we've been looking for a property in Texas for nine years.

Okay, that's just weird. No, you haven't. Or if you have, you've got other issues other than property looking. Takes you a decade. Then it takes a decade in Texas to find something to live in. That's just not true. That smacks of weirdness and desperation, and you're getting ready to make a mistake.

But what that leads to then is I'm going to do a deal here that I know I shouldn't be doing because for nine years, this is the only property. See how that comes out? And I do that in my own head. That's how I is the only property. See, you know how that comes out? And I do that in my own head. That's how I recognize the drama queen. It lives in all of our heads. And it's like, you know, I'm so stuck.

Rental prices are so high. I am forced to buy a house I can't afford while I have $600,000 in student loan debt. Well, that's just dumber than crap. You know? No, it's just not true. Okay? Not true. And so the other one I love is our house has mold.

Our children will die if we stay here. And the only property we can find to live in is 60% of our take-home pay. These are our two options. Death of our children or bankruptcy. These are our two options. Because we forced ourselves in desperation into this false narrative of fatalism that I'm stuck, and the only way out is to go from one stupid horrible thing to another stupid horrible thing and I'm trying to justify it by saying it's the only option you see what I'm

doing oh yeah and every time I do that in my head I have lost so much money I just every time that fear-based desperation leads you into that and and i get the these are the actual calls i get here on we've got on the air you've heard them before i'm getting triggered dave my ptsd is coming back from the caller saying well there's no used cars under 25 000 so we had to finance one for 35 because what else are you going to do you can't you're just stuck i mean because there's not not a used car anywhere there are all the used cars in america now $25,000. See, when you start making these over-the-top, crazy-butt statements, what that states is not the actual fact. What it indicates is your mindset is in desperation and stuck.

Fatalism. And there's a whiny toddler inside all of us going, we just want the new car. Just admit it. You want the shinier, newer car. Well, but admitting it would be dealing with me, and I don't want to deal with me instead i would rather create this false narrative of the marketplace is forcing me

into doing it's the economy high interest rates it's just ridiculous i mean it's forced me the only way i could go to school was to go four hundred thousand dollars of student loan debt it's the only way it's the only possible other It's the only possible, other than joining the military, but only possible, other than to say, only, other than, other than, oh, my God, but the only possible. So now here I sit, and Biden won't forgive them, and so I'm screwed. And now Sunday you're going to have to start paying payments again. Not someday, Sunday, this coming Sunday so but yeah but but every time you say something with a bizarre set of overstatement that is indicating you're getting ready to make a mistake because I've

done this I've done I'm not making fun of y'all if you've done it I'm not even making fun of our last caller I mean it was a little bit hard to keep up but I mean I but even even aside from that I she just was stuck and i want this and so i and i don't think i should be doing it it feels wrong but i've got to justify it with everything else out here all the three-story buildings and above are not safe uh they don't have licensed contractors you know all these other wild and crazy stories out here in there to justify the move and again that's not picking on her she's sweet lady she's trying to figure it out i appreciate her calling if you call i'll

pick on you too but i'm picking on me in the same thing because i'll tell you man some of the dumbest butt stuff i've ever done is when i was in facing uh bankruptcy i got stuck in that and i thought there's no way out there's nothing i don't don't know what to do. And I lost so stinking much money. I made decades of income evaporate in single strokes of the pen because I was desperate, stuck and fixated. And the one that goes with that also the sister to it is greed. And when you get when you get all fired up and you're like i'm gonna but if okay if the system is broken and the millennial can't get ahead then the millennial has to do something that's completely different crazy shortcut exactly to finally get a tiktok life hack

which is nothing down real estate velocity banking is what we all need velocity we need we need high speed stupidity high We need high-speed stupidity. Stupidity on high speed. Stupidity on caffeinated stupidity. That's what it takes in today's world, Dave. But it's so true. Most of the calls on the show is someone saying, hey, I've got option A and option B, and they're both terrible.

What do I do? And we say, have you ever thought about option C or D? No. There's a lot of that. And it involves you instead of a shortcut? It involves you. That's how you know. Let me help you. A no is a possible answer. it involves you instead of a shortcut? It involves you. That's how you know. Let me help you. No is a possible answer.

No. If the only car you can find that suits your needs is $25,000 and you're broke, answer's no. And it's a complete sentence. No. It's an interesting sound. Two letters. The silence that follows it is deafening. No.

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We'd love to have you. On the debt-free stage, Jeff and Pam are joining us. Hi, guys. How are you? Good. Dave, we're better than we deserve. I love it. Welcome.

Where do y'all live? We're outside of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Ah, cool. Good to have you. Welcome to Nashville. And how much debt have you paid off? We paid off $200,000. Yay. And how long did this take? 56 months. Wow. And your range of income during that time? Started at $132,000 and went to $154,000. Cool. What do y'all do for a living? I'm a nurse practitioner. And Dave, I'm a high school personal finance teacher. Oh, thank yes yes helping the next generation avoid stupidity way to go man i love it cool so

what kind of debt was the 200 000 it was our mortgage you paid off your house now you get to tell your class i love it yeah weird people very weird no mortgage at all. What's this house worth? About $500,000. Yay. And how much in your nest egg in your retirement? So retirement's probably like $300,000. All right. Bumping up on getting ready to be baby steps millionaires too.

Yeah. Way to go, guys. Yeah. Congratulations. How old are you two? 37. Oh, man. Paid for house and almost millionaires already.

Look at you. I'm so proud of you. Good you good work good work tell us how this story start so this story started about 13 years ago when we were dating oh he got me your total money makeover book oh so he's been this nerd all along he's been the nerd i'm definitely the free spirit here um so i read that dating a personal finance professor in high school you know it's kind of shocking you get a personal finance book. Okay. So I started paying off student loans. I had actually bought a new car out of college. So I was one of those.

Worked on paying all that off. We got married and all the money we got from the wedding went to finish paying off my debt. Whoa. So we became debt free once already. Yay. And then we ended up buying our home. We had our first daughter, Caroline. We ended up going through FPU class in 2017.

Yeah, so then I just got this bug for helping people with finances. So we actually came down here and met with you guys in 2018 for the Financial Coach Master Training. Yeah. And so I became a financial coach and I've led FPU at my church and a couple

other churches in our area. And at that point, I'm like, I can't get enough of this. And so I was already teaching something else and decided, all right, we got to change what's going on in our society. And so I went back and got some more education and became a personal finance teacher. And I think five years later, that's kind of where we are now. Wow. Look at you. Way to go, man. Thank you. Thanks for all the help. My goodness, that's powerful. I mean, you guys really drink the Kool-Aid and it worked out for you. That's incredible. Yeah. Yeah. 56 months paying off this mortgage where people cheering you on. Did they think it was weird? Did you keep it to yourselves? I think it varies. You know, if people ask us, we'd be happy to talk about it. We actually had a chart. I made a chart with our house on it. I drew a picture of our

house and I colored in and I had it hanging in our kitchen. So people came over, they saw it hanging in the kitchen and we would color off every $6,000 I think our mark was. What a great conversation starter. They're like, did your kids draw that? You're like, no, I did. But we did have some cheerleaders. My one buddy, Frank Nevis, he and I have led Personal Finance or Financial Peace University multiple times together. My parents are huge supporters of us. They actually introduced us to Dave Ramsey when I was 19. I remember looking at the Ben and Arthur chart of compound interest. This is generational.

Oh, it is. And that's kind of why we're doing this too um you know we have two kids under the age of seven and uh you know talk about i'm gonna get emotional here but talking about changing family trees yeah um and that's kind of what our motivation was at least my motivation was for all of this and our kids hear it all the time our daughter's now in second grade but when she was in kindergarten they had if you were given a hundred dollars what would you do with it and she said i would save it she wrote that on her paper and everyone else was buying so they're used to it they hear us talking about budgeting we had a big goal after we paid off the house was to go to disney world um so that's upcoming this fall yay so they knew that when

mommy and daddy pay the house off then we get to go to disney world and we always joke that you know if they had a friend that went to dis World, they're like, oh, their parents must have paid off their house to go to Disney World. That's amazing. No, that's kind of just how we do it. Yeah. We're weird. Disney should have such a program, but they don't, yes.

Probably limit the old lines on the rides. Absolutely. Good for you guys. Well done, you guys. Very well done you guys very well done all right so the kiddos have been involved you have changed your family tree you're heroes proud of you thanks well done all right let's bring them up and introduce them what are their names and ages all right so we have samuel samuel is five and we have caroline she's coming up now and she is seven all right all right all right, and all grown up.

I love it. Very well done. Good job, you guys. What do you tell people the key to getting out of debt is and almost being a millionaire by the time you're 37? The budget, absolutely the budget, and not keeping up with the Jonesons. The contentment.

I follow Rachel Cruz. I've done all of that. That's huge, especially at our age with our friends and seeing what they're doing. Yeah, just being happy with what you have. You know, we don't have the nicest house. We have 10-year-old cars, and they work just fine. And, you know, we're just very content people.

Way to go, you guys. Way to go. Very proud of you. Very proud of you. Godliness with contentment is a great game. Very good. Well done. Well, we got the live and give box for you which

includes the baby steps millionaires book which you almost are but you'll be soon excellent and total money makeover book you'll find somebody to give that to in a financial peace university membership and as lifetime coordinators you've been doing it forever you'll find somebody to help with that i'm sure as you coordinate more classes thanks for leading the classes and for being a coach and for being a teacher leading this stuff my goodness you're like a poster child yeah incredible everything you've taught this stuff more than i have i believe well done very well done you guys i'm very proud of you all right jeff and pam caroline and samuel yeah your house has paid off and everything. And now we're going to Disney. You're officially weird people.

You paid off $200,000 in 56 months making $132,000 to $154,000. Count it down. Let's hear a debt-free scream. 3, 2, 1. We're debt-free! Yeah! The kids have done it. The kids have done it.

The kids have done it. They don't remember it now. Well, it's going to be on YouTube forever. So when they're grown adults, they'll be scrolling back to the debt-free stream their parents did. Yeah. Like, I remember when I was six, I went over to that Ramsey place, man. My parents paid off the house. That'll be pretty cool.

I feel like it'd be hard for them to now live a life of debt after this experience, seeing what their parents did, changing the family tree. You've got to hope they don't run the other way like the prodigal son. Yeah, it can happen, but you can have a prodigal show up. But the way you change your family tree, what's interesting is the thing I love about that idea is that Proverbs 22.7 says, The rich rules over the poor, the borrower is slave to the lender. The verse before that is 22.6, and it says train up a child in the way he should go. Wow. And when he's old, he will not depart from it. So if you take the numbers out, it just says train up a child in the way he should go,

and when he's old, he'll not depart from it. The rich rules over the poor and the borrower is slave to the lender. Train your child that. That's an interesting connection. and when he's old he'll not depart from it. The rituals over the poor and the borrower are slave to the lender. Train your child that. Wow. That's an interesting connection. We always separate those two and teach one's a parenting thing and one's a money thing,

but it sounds like you're teaching your kids to stay out of debt to me. That's a continued thought. What do I know? But we'll see. Wow. We'll have to talk about that in heaven and make sure I got that right,

but theologians out there everywhere are questioning my use of Proverbs, but there we go. It's always happened since I started. There there we go you guys are very cool that was a very neat uh the emotion in his voice he's teaching kids in high school he taught the class in his church totally financial peace university coordinator became a ramsey coach the whole like you said drank the kool-aid but but that's all because this stuff matters to him. Yeah.

Well, and his parents at 19 was like, hey, you got to check out this Ramsey stuff. And so introducing that early on got him on this path, and now he's going to train up his kids this way, and the kids are going to train up their kids that way. You know what? So what we're saying is, is if you can get your 19-year-old to not be stupid, it helps your grandkids in the future. If nothing else, do it for the grandkids. Do it for the grandkids in the future if nothing else do it for the grandkids do it for the grandkids that aren't here yet yeah teach your kids so that your grandkids

can have some sense there's an idea well how many people call in and say dave i wish i knew this stuff when i was in my 20s and 30s man i did some dumb stuff yeah you can if you're a parent out there you have a chance at redemption here yeah for sure and you we've got the you know, you know, if you want to teach little kids, we've got all that Financial Peace Junior. Yeah, they got the new saving bank. The brand new kit. It is incredible. It's incredible. I want to get one for my little girl, Dave.

She's a month old, but you better believe she's already saving her money. I know you. You'll be sending her to the salt mines. This is the Ramsey Show. George Campbell, Ramsey personality, is my co-host today. Kathy is with us in Columbus, Ohio. Hi, Kathy. Welcome to The Ramsey Show. Hi there.

Hey, what's up? Well, my question is, I'm about $43,000 in debt right now from student loans with little income, and I'm just wondering what my next steps are. Okay. $42,000 in student loan debt, what is your income? Right now I'm estimating I'm a bartender, so I get a lot of mixed tips, but I estimate about $2,800 a month. Okay. So you're making a little over $30,000 a year.

How old are you? I'm 22. And what's your degree in? Well, I'm only two years into it, but it's music education. Okay. And are you still going to school? At the moment, no, because $15,000 of that $43,000 that I'm in debt is with the school itself.

And my credit score is not great, and I can't find a loan to cover my last semester, which is that $15,000. So they won't even enroll me back into school until that $15,000 is paid off. Okay, you only lack one semester graduating. I actually have about three more years to go. Okay, all right. So signing up for more of this fun doesn't sound fun, does it? Not really. So, okay.

Is this all the debt you have? Yeah, currently. Just the student loans. Okay. Well, let me ask you. It sounds like you're saying you need a new career plan. Well, that would be, that could maybe solve the financial problems. It just would stink.

That's just what I've always wanted to do is teach music. So it just, if there's a way around it, I would love to jump onto it. But if that's what I got to do, I got to do what I got to do. Okay. Well, there's so you're a musician, I assume. Correct. Okay. And what is your specialty? I sing for school. Okay. So voice. Right. Okay. Good. All right. Okay. Unless you were teaching in a high school setting, a degree, I mean, there's no degree required to give voice lessons as an independent person. You know that, right?

Correct. Correct. Okay. So the only way you would have to have a degree requirement is if you were going into a classroom setting of some kind, but anything that was private or one-off, um, you, you certainly could start doing at this moment because you obviously have a great, you obviously have a great voice and you have a passion for teaching people to sing. That's wonderful. That's wonderful.

Okay. teaching people to sing that's wonderful that's wonderful okay so um all right so i i'll just uh put my muddy boots on and walk all in your dream for a minute i'm already am so let me walk around some more okay go for it all right so your dream of spending a hundred thousand dollars or more a hundred and fifty thousand dollars total when you're all said and done probably to get a degree to teach music in high school and make forty or fifty thousand dollars a year doesn't have a good return on investment it's a bad choice mathematically so since our dream process is becoming a nightmare i'm going to suggest we live the dream in such a way that it becomes not a nightmare and that's what i was starting to do there i was starting to mess with it you know

your your your way of implementing your passions and your skills. Okay? And this is what Ken Coleman that works here as a Ramsey personality does every day on his show. He helps people align with their passions and their skills and point them in the direction, a practical application of that that is not necessarily involves a four-year degree. In your case, you can't afford a four-year degree right now and you're trapped as

a bartender with a great voice right now so we need a different plan i it's what i think just looking at it as your ugly uncle that loves you okay and so your old ugly uncle that loves you and tells you the truth says uh we need a different plan than classroom teaching because it's not worth the money you will spend for the money versus the money you will make in order to be able to teach voice in a classroom setting now later on when you're making some serious money but i'll give you a crazy example okay i had a friend um i'm in nashville everybody in nashville's a musician okay but this lady was a fabulous concert level pianist okay fabulous and you're in nashville and so i mean you you're your studio or you're on the road or you're unemployed those are your three options

when you're doing that okay in this town right, and she won't be on the road. Studio stuff was hard to break into, but she was fabulous. She ended up building a large, I'm talking like 18 teachers working for her, piano lessons company. I don't know what you call that. I don't know. Yeah. But people, she rented a building in a warehouse district

and filled it up with pianos. Wow. The piano place would put them in there on a deal so the kids would get hooked on their brand right and they come in there and mom and dad drop them off for piano lessons and she was a huge but absolutely zero degree required i don't even know if the lady had a degree but she i've seen her play and i I knew her. I mean, she's a good personal friend, but she built this mega, I mean, a nice-sized business. She was making a whole lot more than the teacher at the high school. I can promise you that, okay, teaching all these children and adults piano lessons. I don't know why you couldn't do something like that as your dream and not be 150 000 in debt for the opportunity and it starts with starts with you starting you know finding a couple people that need voice lessons in your town and just queue

them up and help them in the meantime probably thinking about what i can do as a side job or a different better job to go make some dadgum money, get the student loan paid off. Because I don't want you 32 years old trapped in a bar still waiting on this dream. Right. That's what I'm worried about. In the meantime, could you get a better job bartending at a higher-end restaurant, for example, and double your income doing that? Well, I actually just did that. So the income that I gave you is my estimated new income as of this week that I just started a new,

more higher-end kind of job. Okay, all right. It still feels low for a higher-end bartender making $30,000. I mean, some of these are making six figures or more. Yeah. So I would at least look into, hey, do I need to work overtime right now? Do I need to do those vocal lessons on the side?

But right now, we've got an income problem. Let's clean up the debt, and let's chase that dream later on down the road. Yeah. So the answer to your question that you called about is how do I pay off my student loans? Anytime you have a debt, you have to look at the two pieces you gave us, the income that you have versus the debt that you have. and we call that the shovel to hole ratio around here how big a shovel your income do you have to get out of the hole the debt and so if you call me up and you have a four hundred thousand dollar income big shovel but you got three hundred thousand dollars worth of debt well you got big debt big shovel you're good that's a

bad not a it's not a one fun place but it's a ratio you can deal with your problem is you're upside down you got small shovel and medium size debt and so the reason this whole discussion unfolded was we're trying to think with you how we can help you get your shovel bigger your income bigger to knock the debt out right quick and then let's move with our whole career movement and how we can pull this off and either start and run a business or you know again i i don't know what the voice scene the vocal scene is in columbus ohio i don't know anything about it but um uh i'm gonna start working in that area and trying to figure out ways to use my talent and get paid because if you can sing to the level that you can teach others then you can sing to the level you can make money with your voice and uh yeah and i had a

similar amount of debt i had 36 000 student loans and at the time i had an entry-level salary and i was like well i can't just go double my income at my at the company so i can go out and i started making websites i did music gigs. I was licensing my songs through websites. I was doing Uber, Lyft. I was doing it all. And all of that combined gave me the margin to tackle this debt in 18 months. And so it may seem like insignificant at the time, but all that little stuff adds up. You just work your tail end off.

Exactly. Literally. Yeah. I mean, that's just not going to happen doing 35 hours a week. No, no, you're going to have to go crazy for a short period of time. And I don't think I'd sign back up for the deal you were signed up for. I want to change your direction. Hang on, I'm going to send you a copy of Ken Coleman's book, Paycheck to Purpose.

And also I'm going to send you the assessment that he has on helping you pick out your career track. So I want to leave your dream with you, not your nightmare. This is The Ramsey Show. Dave here. You can find all of our shows with the Ramsey Network app on your smartphone. It's the only place to listen to the entire back catalog of episodes. Download the Ramsey Network app in your favorite app store today.