The Ramsey Show - App - Borrowing Money To Avoid Paying Taxes is Stupid! (Hour 1)

Episode Date: August 17, 2022

Dave Ramsey & Kristina Ellis discuss: How to get your finances under control, The stupidity of borrowing money to avoid paying taxes, Why you shouldn't buy a house with someone you're not married to, Where student loan debt goes in the baby steps.   Want a plan for your money? Find out where to start: https://bit.ly/3nInETX Listen to all The Ramsey Network podcasts: https://bit.ly/3GxiXm6   Learn more about your ad choices. https://www.megaphone.fm/adchoices Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy

Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where debt is dumb, cash is king, and the paid-off home mortgage has taken the place of the BMW as the status symbol of choice. We help people build wealth, do work that they actually love, and create real, amazing relationships. Christina Ellis, Ramsey Personality, number one best-selling author, is my co-host today. As we answer your questions about your life and your money, it is a free call. The number is 888-825-5225.

That's 888-825-5225. Let's go to Connor in Baltimore. Hey hey connor welcome to the ramsey show hey dave how's it going better than i deserve what's up so basically um i just graduated two years ago um i lived at home throughout that whole time did the commute thing saved as much money as i could um so just a few months ago, some things went on at home and I basically had no decision but to leave. And I've always wanted to buy because, you know, I've obviously know that renting is kind of a waste for some reasons. And I had really no choice. So I have a rent payment now. I have a little bit of debt, but I'm in a salary position and a good career ladder. And I guess I'm just kind of wondering overall how I can posture myself to put myself in the best position

moving forward. Cool. What do you do for a living? So I work for the federal government, and I make $63,000 a year. Good for you. Okay, cool. What was your degree in? Business technology.

Okay. So like data analytics and stuff like that good for you so you're what 22 23 24 yep 24 okay that's awesome how much debt do you have so um i have about three thousand dollars in credit card debt um and that's just because i had to move out like very abruptly um so i need to furnish stuff and just like that. So I just got like a bed and a couch and stuff like that and just put it all on a credit card. So right now your,

your question is if you should buy right now or stop renting. So, so basically with the way the rent market has been, I'm spending way more than I should be on rent because I really didn't have an option. But I'm here for a year, so then I guess I'm just wondering. I also have a car payment, and I probably bought more car than I should have a year or two ago just because I didn't anticipate on having to pay rent so soon. So I'm wondering how much of my money I should be putting in

to just kill all that debt off with the car and everything. How much do you owe in the car? So I pay $400 a month, and I have three years left on it. It's a Toyota Camry. What's the balance on it today? I think $17,000 last I checked. Okay. Big car payment.

So I have around $20,000 in debt total. All right. Well, there's a couple things. We can certainly show you a system to walk A, out of this debt, and then B, into a position you have an emergency fund of three to six months of expenses. That's maybe steps one, two, and three. And then start saving to buy a home at that point. Yes, you do want to buy a home at some point,

but you don't want to buy them in the headspace that you're in right now. Okay. And if you're going to ever win with money, there's a phrase that you have said three times in our conversation that you have to stop believing and you have to stop saying it. I didn't have a choice, dude. You always have a choice. Okay.

You needed to leave home i get that but then you went and bought a bunch of crap on a credit card uh you could have gone down to a garage sale somewhere and picked up a used couch for 50 bucks yeah you didn't but you didn't okay so you always have a choice uh you could have bought a car that you could pay cash for but you didn't you always have a choice. You could have bought a car that you could pay cash for, but you didn't. You always have a choice. Now, so you're no longer a victim of the marketplace or of your circumstances. You are the captain of your own ship, and it's your destiny marked on the side of that ship, and you're in charge of steering your destiny things are not going to happen to you anymore you're going to happen to things

you've got to reset that narrative because otherwise you're going to do stupid butt crap the rest of your life and blame it on i was forced to yes sir okay makes sense so now we get that out of the way now it's real easy to do the tactical stuff that you need to do because you're obviously a sharp young guy. You've obviously got a lot on the ball. You're making really good money at 24 years old. You know, you've got a little bit of car payment. You've got a little bit of credit cards. We'll cut up the credit cards.

We're going to get you on a budget. We're going to chop up, get rid of that credit card debt first, and we'll knock out the car payment. And then you can save for a down payment. Yes, definitely. That sounds great. I had one had one other question too if you don't mind sure so i i'm not really super into like um like all of like the interest rates and stuff like that then like what the climate makes for a good time to buy a home but the reason i didn't really buy one was because i've just heard everyone saying you know you see it in the news the terrible time to buy a terrible time to buy how do you know when it is a good time?

It's actually a great time to buy because house prices are going to do nothing but go up for the next five years. But you've got some of these characters on the news trying to get someone elected or someone unelected, and they have an agenda, and so they're trying to use the economy as a lever point on that. The interest rates are up. The market has slowed down. agenda and they're so they're trying to use the economy as a lever point on that um the interest rates are up the market has slowed down um it is a better time to buy now than it was last year at this time because it was so white hot you'd been bidding against 27 people and uh so you know but let me tell you when a bad time to buy is when you're broke and not ready which is right now right okay you got car payments and credit cards and,

you know, you haven't got a plan and you feel discombobulated. When you buy a house in that environment, you're about to get screwed over. Yeah, Connor, I would say I would worry less about what the market's doing right now because, yeah, you're not ready. I think you've got to work through a lot of this stuff yourself. Of course, you know, we have the baby steps, like Dave said, get your own financial house in order and also work through some of this stuff that you went through with your family. That sounds like it was pretty rough and that you have a lot of healing to do from that. If you hang online, we're going to get you a copy of Own Your Past, Change Your Future by Dr. John Deloney, who's on the show. And I would really encourage you to go through that

and take a little bit of time because I feel like right now I can hear the anxiety in your voice and I can hear this kind of franticness. And I think it's easy to point to, you know, maybe it's because I need a house or maybe it's because I'm not doing this in life and I got to hurry up and I got to catch up. And it's like, I think that's channeled the wrong direction right now. I think you're focusing on things that aren't going to make you feel better in the long run. What's going to make you feel better is dealing with your past and finding a spot of peace and then dealing with your finances the correct way, paying off all your debt, saving a three to six month emergency fund, investing for retirement and buying a house. You know, do it all in the right order. But right now, I think you've got to just take some time to breathe

and kind of reset. That's wisdom, Christina. That's really, that's really, really wise. Because here's the thing. It's obvious from from the story we didn't dig into it but that this was an emotionally violent separation for you uh the way you described it two or three different sentences in talking about it so um yeah we all heard that and we hear that in your voice too and you make much better decisions from a point of strength and a point of peace rather than a wounded animal and i've been both in my life at times and i i i wounded animals don't make good decisions and so uh the healing she's talking about is really really important and it'll put you on this steady rhythm of wisdom and even how you go back and deal with mom and dad later. And you know, and you're doing that from a position of strength rather than, uh, just barking and snapping and snarling.

And, um, that can happen there really easy. So hang on, we'll send you a copy of John's book. And also I will throw in a copy of total money makeover, which will show you exactly what to do with your money and get things stabilized and walk you through the baby steps. number one best-selling author Ramsey personality Christina Ellis is my co-host today as we answer your questions about your life and your money thank you for being with us how many times have you found yourself saying one day when you're thinking about a goal? One day I'll be able to buy a house. One day I'll write a book. One day I'll be happy with my career. One day I won't be deeply in debt. One day I'll have to battle. I won't have to battle with anxiety anymore. Well, stop waiting around.

Whatever your one day is, you need to act on it. Otherwise, you're going to kick the cans far down the road. You run out of road. You need to get with this. You got to take a proactive stance on all areas of your life. And we help you do that with Smart Conference. Smart Conference is where we take every area of your life. We bring in some of the top thought leaders, writers, thinkers, and speakers on that area to help you get smarter. That's why we call it Smart Conference.

That's a neat name, right? So anyway, it's all day long on a Saturday, and here's the deal. We're going to have Rachel Cruz talking about money, Dr. John Deloney talking about mental health, Ken Coleman talking about careers, George Camel, Christina Ellis, the new hottest Ramsey personality, speaking in areas Christina's expertise is all around the student loan world and all around the education world. And George has always got something fun and funny.

He'd say, I'll be speaking. My friends Craig and Amy Groeschel from Life.Church will be talking on marriage. It's all day long, and you're going to leave smarter. It's in Dallas this year. It's October the 22nd. It is almost sold out, but not yet. The VIP and Platinum Passes are sold out, but you can still get general admission,

only $39 for the whole day. You would pay more than $39 to hear any one of these number one best-selling authors. And virtually everyone on the venue is a number one best-selling author many times over, but at least once, and have written books and talk about and are just experienced and world-class in their space, you're going to leave fired up and wired up. And so your one day becomes today.

Today, I'm going to deal with this. And that's a cool thing. RamseySolutions.com, get your passes today. RamseySolutions.com slash events it is the um it's the smart conference october 22nd in dallas you don't want to miss this this is your first one to speak it it's my first one and i just saw the rundown this morning and it looks incredible i see why you say that you sit in the audience and take notes because i never miss oh man i always have a seat reserved for the speaker the other speakers and and people working and stuff to come out there and sit during the thing

because i mean i've had we've had all kinds of people uh you know craig grochel emmy grochel i mean when when i rachel cruz is my daughter but i always learn something when she speaks you know uh uh ken coleman he's always got something going on in that brain of his and deloney good lord he's got he's got more degrees than a thermometer. So, you know, and so you just, yeah, I'm going to be sitting out there taking notes. And I'll learn something about marriage. I've been married 40 years, but I'll learn something about marriage. And I'll learn something from every one of you when I'm sitting out there.

And if I can learn something, if these are the people I learn from, then I know you people out there listening can learn from them. Absolutely, yeah. I can't wait to be on stage, but I also just can't wait to be in the audience learning from everyone because the talks look amazing. They are. The content is dialed in, I mean, it's really good. I'm so pumped. All right, BJ's with us in Chesapeake, Virginia. Hi, BJ, how are you? Hi, Dave, I'm doing good. I'm over here cleaning up our empty house, but I'm good. Sounds like a side hustle to me. It is. It is. I love it.

Good. Good money. How can we help? Well, my question was, I do have these rentals, and I have to pay RRS somewhere $15,000, $30,000 every year. So my question is, should I take equity out? Some of them I paid for. So I'm concerned about taking equity out just to try to have other deductions, or should I just continue to pay RRS? I don't know. Okay.

There are no tax deductions that make mathematical sense because if you give the government i mean if you give the bank ten thousand dollars and it is a tax deduction because it was interest on us on a loan that means you get to deduct ten thousand dollars from your income so you do not have to pay taxes on that ten thousand dollars it does not save you ten thousand dollars in taxes it saves you having to pay taxes on ten thousand dollars of your income and so if you're in a 25 tax bracket it saves you twenty five hundred dollars so you gave the bank ten thousand dollars to keep from sending the irs 2500 that's called stupid okay we don't want to do that. We're not trading dollars for quarters and look at that and call that sophisticated financial planning, okay?

People do that crap all the time, though. And some CPAs are so stupid they recommend you do that. But you don't want to do it, okay? Now, here's the thing. Why do you owe the IRA? Do you have a day job other than the rentals? I don't work. I mean, I retired 2020.

Okay. So you've got income from retirement that's taxable. And you've got the rents off these properties that's taxable. Well, I have other income that I worked for. I'm retired military, so I get income from that. And that's taxable. I retired from the post office. I get income from that. And that's taxable. I retired from the post office. I got money from that. And that's taxable. And I get the rental income

and then I get, I'm 100% disabled. That's not taxable from the military. That's not. Everything else is, though. Okay, cool. So here's what's happening. You just owe income tax. And you aren't setting it aside out of your check.

So if you owe $30,000 a year, that's $2,500 a month you need to be setting aside in your little IRS savings fund over here. Okay. You have to withhold on yourself so that this doesn't come up and smack you in the back of the head every year. Because if every year it smacks you in the back of the head, you run borrow on it, that's going to run out. That's right. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, using the home equity loan would just be kicking the can down the road.

You'd just be basically taking from yourself in the long run. So you've got income that's taxable north of $100,000. Yes. Way to go. Thank you for your service by the way well thank you thank you yeah i mean you've got you've so what are you 60 69 69 okay all right yeah so you what what you need to do is sit down with a tax professional just go to ramsey solutions.com and click on tax elp because they need to help you set up a cash flow schedule that every month when you get checks, you take some of that. And before you even put it in, you put it in a checking account or whatever, but immediately it moves X number of dollars over as if you were doing a double.

Like when you worked at the post office, they held money out of your check, right? So you just got to hold money out of your own check so this doesn't keep smacking you all the time okay you're amazing you put together quite a life here so don't put on any of the ones that you don't recommend equity land on any of my paid off properties i paid off four of them it's free and clear no i wouldn't now do you have the money to pay the taxes right now that are due? Oh, of course, yeah. I pay all the bills. Everything is paid for.

Savings is coming in, you know. So your main question is, do I go in debt to lower my tax bill? Yes, do I go in debt. But see, even if I did that, get an equity, I could buy another property. Yes, but you would be in debt. But see, even if I did that, get an equity, I could buy another property. Yes, but you would be in debt. And now you've done all of this because this tax thing is bothering you. And if you owe the bank $10,000 in interest, you only save $2,500 on taxes. Bad trade again.

Okay. So I would rather see you set up a schedule where your taxes are coming out of your check, that you're taking them out automatically and you're not getting you're not feeling the pinch of these things because you're planning better number one and then i want you to use some of this money because you don't spend much money and i think you're going to be able to pile up enough cash pretty quickly to buy another property with cash and not have any debt there's a reason you work to get all these paid off kiddo yeah because life's better

when they're paid off don't go back in debt yeah okay yeah you're feeling the pressure from the tax thing because it's just bad cash planning is you got bad cash planning yeah bj you're such a rock star just even the fact that right now when you called you said you're at the rental cleaning it yourself at 69 years old like you have worked hard for this then that's incredible just keep doing what you're doing because you have proved that you know what you're doing and you can't borrow your way out of this you got it you got to plan and work your way out of it and and that's that's a thing but it's a misnomer that and you can only write off interest by the the way, if you're itemizing. And most people don't itemize anymore. The standard deductions are so high, very few people itemize.

So it's really mythology. I'm going to stay in debt on my home because I get a tax write-off. You really don't. If you're taking a standard deduction, you don't get a tax write-off on your home because your standard deduction is covered. You've got that whether you have debt or not. Silly stuff. This is The Ramsey personality, number one bestselling author, is my co-host.

Open phones at 888-825-5225. Thank you for joining us, America. Amy's with us in Dallas, Texas. Hi, Amy, how are you? I'm great, Mr. Ramsey. How are you doing? Better than I deserve. What's up?

I think it's a quick question. I know you stress mutual funds, but I was just curious. If I have researched and both have a proven track record of 10% to 12% growth over the long haul, does it matter if I choose an ETF or a mutual fund, really? No, they do about the same thing. Okay. The thing you don't want to get into, and if you're reading about ETFs and you go down the rabbit hole on one of these stupid Reddit threads or something like that,

then you may find people using ETFfs to do to try to time the market and jump in and out never gone on reddit my whole life good that's a that's a wise thing uh i don't go i haven't gone back in a long time but um my team tells me from time to time stuff that's going on and uh but yeah it's like reading the comments after an article you understand why some species eat their young and so um but the uh uh it does dumbest humans on the planet but yeah the uh anyway the etf if you go if you get off i'll use another one if you go off on one of these stupid tiktok things or something like that so where you're getting all this financial advice from goobs or trying to figure out some get richrich-quick thing. Okay? Don't use an ETF that way. If you're simply using it like a mutual fund, it basically is a mutual fund.

It's kind of how it acts. Okay. Great. I mean, it's very, very, very similar. Would you agree with what you've learned about it? Yes. I think I was mainly going for a more efficient tax thing, so I didn't have to, like, plan for the mutual fund less tax efficient.

That's what I was going for. So you've maxed out all your retirement yes sir excellent and you're 100 debt-free house and everything yes sir way to go how old are you uh 33 husband's 32 ding yeah the etf will give you the same benefit on the tax efficiency that like an S&P 500 would, an index fund. If you buy a low turnover mutual fund, that means they don't sell the stocks inside of it very often, has a low turnover ratio. That's what I do in your situation, baby step, post baby step seven stuff. You're 100% out of debt, 100% maxed out on retirement. Now, where can i put some money and not get my butt taxed off right exactly and and so the etf will let it sit there and basically

it's capital gains growth a low turnover mutual fund like an index 500 sp 500 would it's basically capital gains growth so you don't pay taxes on it until you cash it and if you've held it a year and cash it then you're going to be taxes taxed at capital gains rate rather than full ordinary income rate. So it's very tax efficient. I love them for that purpose. Yeah, in your setting, super, super yes, but just don't want everybody else out there listening, 22 million listeners, thinking, oh, I can buy and sell,

and I'm going to jump in the market and out of the market and use the ETF to do it, which is a lot of times when you hear people doing these stupid, motley fool articles or something like that that don't know what they're doing, they're teaching you to do that kind of stuff. Timing the market is bad. But ETFs in general, I don't have any issue with them. I'm super impressed. 33 years old.

Killed it. Step seven. Mic drop. I love it. I'm hung on that. I'm like, that's just fantastic. You go, girl. Abigail's with us in Rapid City, South Dakota.

Hey, Abigail. What's up? Hi. It might be a little windy where I am. I am currently working and I'm outside. But my boyfriend and I are looking to move in together. And we can't agree on whether to rent an apartment or buy a house together. Buying a house together without being married just doesn't seem right to me,

and I'm looking for some advice. Well, I think you're definitely on the right track with that. I would not recommend buying a house with somebody you're not married to. That can open up so many doors to complications. What's your kind of timeline for wanting to make a move? Within three to six months. Okay.

How old are you guys? we're 20 and 22 20 and 22 okay if you're willing to talk about buying a house and you're willing to move in together why aren't you willing to get married um we're we're young yet um we are high school young people get married all the time. Yeah, I know. And we've been talking about it. I think we'll probably get married within a year or two. I'm calling because we're going to have a serious conversation this weekend because I want to get forward with our plan of when we're going to get married

and how much the wedding should be possibly self. Yeah. Okay. So, um, you, you called asking advice about the house and about the whole situation. I'm going to give you more than you asked for. Okay. Okay. There was a, the Brookings Institute did a study that said in America, if you do three things,

your probability to avoid poverty is statistically astronomical. In other words, the likelihood of being in poverty if you avoid these three things is very, very high. Marry before you have a kid, have your first child after age 20, and get married before you live together. That's a statistical analysis. Okay? And the chances of divorce for people that live together before they get married are four times higher than people who get married before living together statistical evidence interesting so yeah if uh my youngest is 30 uh when they were in their 20s if we had

had been having this conversation i would say why do you think you can beat the odds there must be some reason behind all of this there must be some reason behind all this so if bubba is willing to sleep with you and buy a house with you he should be willing to marry you that's my dad talking all right okay see i told you he's getting more than you looked for no and you know what abigail it's not because i'm trying to make you mad it's because i care about you kiddo and i want you to win and you called here looking at a win yep i did so thank you so don't buy a house for god'sakes, for somebody you're not married to.

Because when you break up, it's very, very difficult. When somebody dies or becomes disabled, it's very, very difficult. When someone gets on drugs, it's very, very difficult. Yeah, I thought just, like, even applying for a loan when we're not married would be complicated, and I just didn't want to do that and also we're just dating i didn't want to have to deal with the burden of homeownership yeah so agreed agreed so yeah rent for sure um and uh but you need to consider these other statistics as well uh i kind of got the vibe you're not, but that's okay. It's my job to tell you it's your job to decide what you're going to do. You're like a grown-up and stuff.

Well, and you have a few days to think about it. Like really take some time, think about it, pray about it, evaluate before you have this conversation, get your own emotions settled. Because I mean, I think you do have an opportunity to really have some of those harder conversations about where's this relationship going, what's the timeline. And it sounds like, you know, you guys have at least the ability to have the conversation. So if that conversation's happening this weekend,

you know, just take some time before it happens to consider what Dave said and see if there's a more wise way to approach it. Yeah. If you're serious enough to make all these big life decisions, then you're serious enough to make a big life decision. So how old were you when you got married?

23. 23. I was 22. Yeah. So young people get married all the time. And you've been married how long? 10 years. And I got 40.

That's amazing. So, you know, it works. Yeah. It's an amazing thing. Yeah. Yeah. And there you go. Well, in successful marriages,

they're built on those hard conversations, like being willing to have those hard conversations about, maybe he wants to move in with you or he wants to wait longer to be married but then you have to have your boundaries as well the part of your brain you're using to make a permanent commitment when you buy a house is a pretty similar part of your brain that you use to make a permanent commitment when you decide to get married because once you're in the house deal i mean you you got the you got the brand on your forehead you know i mean you're there and you're you're stuck in this deal and so um it's a very very similar set of critical thinking skills that

get you there now i know you're in love and i know all this. I know he's very persuasive. Well, especially if you're buying a house, too. Like, you're signing on a dotted line for that as well. That's pretty intimidating if you're not married. It's hard to get out of either one, marriage or house ownership. Both are messy. So, yeah, you need to be really sure what we're doing here with permanent decisions, long-term decisions. This is The Ramsey personality, who's been married 11 years, not 10, is my co-host today.

Sorry, husband. So, there's one year in there that just didn't count. It wasn't much of a year. It's kind of boring year. Not much going on. I blame mom brain. Mom brain. Okay.

All right. All right. There you Brain. Oh, okay. All right. All right. There you go. That's it. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Kelly is with us in Baltimore, Maryland. Hi, Kelly. Welcome to the Ramsey Show.

Hi. Oh, my gosh. It's such an honor. Thank you for having me. Our honor, too. How can we help? I am drowning in student loan debt um i have three hundred thousand dollars in student loans oh honey yes what's your degree in are you a lawyer or a doctor

a lawyer okay that's good news i hope i hope you a good lawyer job. You didn't take a job with the state or something. The government, federal government. Why? Work-life balance. Work-life balance? You got $300,000 in debt. I know. I did have a mental health breakdown back in 2018 and that I couldn't find a job so the

government was the first one that came up at the end of 2019 and then the pandemic hit yeah how much they paying you my gross is $89,834 okay how long you been in of law school? 2015. How are you doing with your mental health? Better. I see a therapist bi-weekly. That's a part of my budget is that I have to pay my co-pay for my therapist. And I see the psychiatrist quarterly and I take medication. Good investment. Good investment. Well done.

Thank you. Sounds like you're doing better I am much better and um realizing that I gotta get a hold of all of this you're married my wife I'm not married but I still am with my children's Okay. All right. How many kids do you have? Three. What age? 16, 7 going on 8, and 4 going on 5. Okay. All right. Well, you got a mountain to climb here, and so we got to get our climbing gear out. And the hole that you're in is 300,000. The shovel that you have is $90,000.

Right? Yes. Your income, we call it the shovel-to-hole ratio. Your income versus the amount of debt you've got to climb through. And so I start going, okay, out of $90,000, how quick can I pay off $300,000? Well, if I pay off $30,000 a year, that's 10 years. That doesn't work yeah it's too long i even tried to work some things out and i'm like this feels too long

it was like five i measured like six years and i was like that's like five thousand more a month and i'm like i don't know i do uh try to work on the side i I do probate and some estate planning, but it's just been slow going. Only 500 there, 500 there. So now that things are settled a bit after 2018 and the pandemic and everything, are you open to finding a different job that maybe pays a bit more? I did not think of it. No, I am bit more? I did not think of it. No, I am open, but I did not think of it. Okay.

Because you could probably make $160,000. You could probably double your income, $170,000, if you got out there in private practice. And, I mean, it might take a little bit of time to get there, but you're not going to get there in the job you're in. And you need a bigger shovel, mathematically. The arithmetic tells us that. Because if you could put 80 on this, you'd be done in three or four years.

But you can't put 80 on it when you make 90. You can when you make 180. And, yeah, there's going to be some work-life balance but i'm going to go with some work-life balance uh like that mom's going to work because mom has a mess and uh i'll see you in about three years well and especially if you make that shovel bigger then it's less about side hustling and working 80 or 90 hours to try to. Well, it might be at a new law firm, a private law firm. They might put her in the locker on the fifth floor and not let her out. But at least you'll have the income there.

Like your salary will be a lot stronger than what it is currently. The probability of you getting this mess cleaned up increases the more you can shorten how long the pain is going to be and so i i for your sake i i think you've got to reconsider how you can go make double what you make or you know uh almost double what you make and throw it all throw all the difference at it because i mean it does it not sound pretty appealing to be out of debt in three or four years? Yes. I mean, I would give up a lot of stuff to do that. I would give up a lot of sacrifice to do that.

When we started this company, my kids were your kids' age or younger, and for three years, my wife will tell you she was virtually a single mom when we started this company. But if you work like no one else, later you get to work like no one else and if you live like no one else later you get to live like no one else and here's the thing the amount of time that human beings in america waste in front of the television will really cause you to prosper alone and you don't you can't call work sitting in front of the television work-life balance because children aren't getting anything out of that except watching mom and dad zone out, watching Netflix and Tiger King. And so, you know, I don't recommend working 80 hours a week and never seeing your children as a way of life, but for a short period of time to get some kind of a needle to move,

yeah, hard work never killed anybody. Right before you die, you pass out if you're working working hard so you're not going to die from it well good job having the courage to call you've been through you've been through a lot yeah that's that's and you have a huge mountain ahead but we have seen people pay off three hundred thousand dollars in debt here's the thing that the looming monster that's thirty,000 pounds, 300,000 pound monster here, $300,000 monster. There's a stress and a weight to that, that Dr. John Deloney, you know, our resident psychologist says your body feels that weight. It affects your mental health and so for you to continue the

healing you have to see a way out of that instead of seeing that as this endless rock you have to push up the hill as in greek mythology right and so uh you know you push that rock up the hill and you get to keep pushing it up the hill for the rest of your life. The weight of that hopelessness affects your mental health. It affects literally your physical body feels that from a mental health perspective, your physiological reactions to the debt. And so, you know, even if the news is hard, hope that it's going to be over soon, I can deal with the hard news. Right. Yeah. The human being, the human mind can deal, psyche can deal. So my point is it's going to help your mental health to have a plan that gets you out. Right. Yeah. The idea of carrying around $300,000 in student loan debt for the rest of your life, that sounds terrifying. I think

anybody would feel that pit in their stomach and just such a, just a rough feeling, feeling like that monster is chasing you and it's right there all the time. But yes, there is hope. This is scary right now, but you can tackle this. You can tackle this mountain as hard as it is. I think especially given the career that you're in, given that you can get a bigger shovel and really attack this. I understand how you got to the career and I'm not shaming you for that. I would tell you not to stay there, though, because I think it's good for you, good for your finances, good for your kids, good for your mental health,

good for your career, for you to go make a big pile of money and get this mess behind you. Yes. And so that's why I'm saying all of this. It's not just to get you out of debt, because there's so much more to this picture. and so that that's why i'm saying all of this it's not just to get you out of debt because there's so much more to this picture and uh but it's uh uh the number of families that we have had with small children that both spouses the kids ended up at grandma's half the time because they

were hustle grind they're working two three four jobs and 18 24 36 months later they've cleared all the debt now they can work 40 hour jobs the rest of their life and become very very wealthy and the kids are not harmed by that because it's not a permanent way of life we're not working for the wrong reasons we're working for a short period of time with intensity with gazelle intensity for focus, get it knocked out. That does not harm your children. No. And those are the best debt-free screams. When we hear them in here just yelling at the top of their lungs that they did it, it is so powerful. And we hope to see you here, Kelly, in a few years. Amen. Amen. This is The Ramsey Show. Have you been inspired to make a change with your money?

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