The Ramsey Show - App - Can I Use Credit Cards if I Pay Them Off Every Month? (Hour 1)

Episode Date: August 11, 2021

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Live Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, broadcasting from the Dollar Car Rental Studios, it's the Ramsey Show, where dad is dumb, cash is king, and the paid off home mortgage has taken the place of the BMW as the status symbol of choice. Dr. John Deloney, Ramsey personality, number one bestselling author and host of the ever popular Dr. John Deloney podcast, which is exploding across America right now. And he talks about mental health and boundaries and relationships and crazy people in your family and all that kind of stuff.

And everybody's got him, baby. So he's here to help with your life, and I'm here to help with your money, and we will just get in each other's business and have fun talking about you folk right in front of you. Phone number's at 888-825-5225. That's 888-825-5225. So the people in the lobby are already pointing at each other about who's crazy. When you said every family's got them, they all looked at this one.

They all started pointing at each other. He looks relatively handsome. He looks like a nice guy, but man. I think she's talking about his family. No, I think she's talking about him. Man. I can't tell through the glass. They are letting him have it.

It's just, wow. Merciless already out there in the studio audience. That's right. Open phones here. Jump in. You can get on. Again, Dr. John Deloney here. 888-825-5225. Tom's in San Antonio.

Hey, Tom, what's up? Well, hi, David. It's a pleasure to talk with you. I just had a question. I'm probably three years away from retirement, and I just wanted to know what you would think would be a reasonable percentage of my principal to withdraw from my retirement accounts once I do reach retirement. Why are you withdrawing principal? Well, I'm sorry, probably I phrased that wrong,

but how much could I expect to draw down from those accounts? Okay. Do you think this will support me? Well, I mean, there's some primitive math you can do, and that'll probably get you close, close enough to where it's the math I'm going to do on mine. So the inflation rate for the last 78 years or so, not counting the last four months, has been about 4.2 percent. And that included Jimmy Carter when it was 12 percent. So this current 6 percent is going to get absorbed into that. So you can figure a 4, 4.5% inflation rate. Okay? So if your money, your nest egg is not at least growing that much, it's not breaking even.

It's deteriorating in purchasing power. Understand? Yes. Because a million dollars won't buy what a million dollars would 20 years ago. Same thing. Right, right. That kind of thing. And, you know, if you retire, you've got 20 years or 30 years or 40 years, this money's got to last.

So it won't buy the same loaf of bread 30 years later for sure. So you want to at least break even. So I try to not draw down, try to leave at least 4% of the growth in the account at least and so that it breaks even with inflation and so if you're making 10 then you could draw down five or six pretty safely right if you know and on average and so and here's the other thing if let's say one year you made but you set it up on a six percent draw down at 10 okay which is a real simple math with what we're talking about right here. And one year, the thing didn't make 10. It made 8.

And so you kind of cut into some of your inflation or principal money a little bit. Well, that's okay because another year, it'll make 12. And you're still only pulling out 6, and you'll put the two back. So the variance in the market will, if you have a tight formula, will work itself out over a decade. And so you're not going to chew up the principal doing that. Now, that's assuming you actually make that. Now, if you're continually not making enough year in and year out, well's the investment setup and so forth so how much money you got uh right now it's uh probably 5.3 million investable assets okay you're not even gonna get you got a lead with that

brother come on man i should have asked earlier i'm sorry well way to go, Tom! That's awesome, man. Touchdown! It don't matter. Take out what you want. Per 3%, 4%, I wasn't sure. Yeah, I mean, you can live a great dadgum life pulling off 3%, 4%, 5% off of that, as long as it's invested in good mutual funds or something like that, where you're making, if you're making that 10 mark and you're pulling off 3%, 4%, 5%, you're going to be just fine. I mean, and you probably have some of it doing better than that some of it not doing that good but okay uh but way to go

how'd you do that oh just working and you know when i started working i just started putting away as much into my retirement account as the law would allow as the law would allow so you didn't make it all like investing in beanie Babies or Bitcoin? Oh, heck no. You didn't get rich with nothing down real estate? No. Okay, so you just steadily invested. You're boring. I love you. We barred for our first house. We're on our fifth house now, but that's the only

one that we barred on was our first house. So we just paid cash for the others. What was your income through the years? Well, about $250,000. Okay, so you made good money, but you just chunked it. You lived well and chunked a bunch of it into investing, and there you go. Now you're worth $5 million. How old are you?

64. Way to go, man. Way to go. I'm so proud of you. None of the kids on the Internet are going to like this guy at all. No, he's like he's like the the proper millionaire i mean this is the way people become millionaires this way not all that other crap yeah like that's why they're all kids on the internet for a long time and then

ta-da yeah it's yeah it didn't hit the lottery didn't make his money on beanie babies it's like driving down the road and there's that sign on the side of the road that says call me and ask me how i lost weight and you call them and they say diet and exercise ta-da it's like oh oh yeah that'll be that'll be five bucks yeah yeah man josh is in austin texas hey josh how are you i'm pretty good dave how are you better than i deserve what's up hey dave i had a question so me and my wife together make about a little bit over $100,000 a year. Good for you. We have car debt, which is about $17,000, $18,000, and then a boat I just bought, foolishly.

Not too long during the pandemic, and that's about $17,000. So my main question was, that's our debt, and then she has about 10 000 in student debt um that's all the debt that we have um that's all main question i don't think that's the right phrase it's like oh my god i'm so scared because i'm so deeply in debt is the right phrase well i mean it could be a lot worse i've seen some of my friends that are made worse well it could be worse you could be in congress but i mean, I mean, it still sucks. Yeah, exactly. And, by the way, hey, hold on, hold on.

That student loan debt is your debt, too, brother. It's not just hers. I know, I know. And once we got married, I'm like, it's mine, too. All right, good. Yes, sir. So my main question was, so we both have credit cards, and we use them every month, and we pay them off in full every single month. Of course you do.

The reason why we use them is to collect the points, and not the points, but the cash back. And then we fill that, we're going to pay, and then expenses we're going to use every month. Of course you do. You're the guy with $34,000 in car and boat debt and a student loan debt that's been around so long, it looks like a pet in your bedroom. Of course you use credit cards. You fit the profile exactly, and you're foolish enough to actually believe it's working for you. You start telling me about the airline points.

No, I don't use airline points. It's all cash back, and I roll it into my son's savings whenever I cash it out. But I guess my question is, I have about $30,000 in stocks, and then I have my 401k, which I can't pull until I'm retired. But would you suggest I just take that money out of the car? Let me ask you something. Let me ask you something. Do you really want to work on this?

If I tell you what to do, will you go do it? Yes, sir. All right, you hold on to the break, and I'll help you. This is The Ramsey Show. growing family. While you're enjoying the present, you can't help but think about your future and your finances. As you explore your options, consider Christian Healthcare Ministries, or CHM, for your health care. Their generous maternity program and budget-friendly monthly programs have been a blessing to members welcoming children into their families. Visit chministries.org slash budget to see if it's right for you. That's chministries.org. Dr. John Deloney, my co-host today, Ramsey Personality.

You can hear the Dr. John Deloney Show, new episodes every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday on YouTube and anywhere you listen to great podcasts, and tune in there. All right, we're talking with Josh. Josh is in Austin, Texas. Josh has $17,000 on a boat he just bought, $17,000 on a car, $10,000 on his wife's student loans, and he's asking about using credit cards as long as he pays them off every month and gets the points that he puts into his son's savings. Is that a fair summary

of what you told me sir yes sir okay how old are you sir i'm 30 oh and you make 100k that's the other thing yeah then well with my wife and me household household income yeah okay yes okay and you've not been listening to us for very long correct no sir i just it. My dad told me about y'all about a year ago. Okay. All right. So instead of giving you the snarky, smart aleck answer, then I'm going to be gentle, because I was assuming when you were asking all of that a while ago that you knew a lot more about what we teach than you do. So let me back up a little bit and tell you this, okay? We've done coaching with families families teaching them how to handle money for 30 years tens of millions of families um and we just finished and published in a book

called everyday millionaires a the largest study of millionaires ever done in North America, studying how they did that, okay? Because the subject really is, when I'm talking to 30-year-old Josh who makes $100,000 household income, what is the shortest distance between where you are now and wealth? How fast can you get there? What's the fastest way and the highest probability of getting there? Without being crazy and taking a bunch of risk and being rash and unwise, what is the way that most millionaires become millionaires? And if I can get you to do that, then you have the highest chance of prospering.

And that's my goal here, okay? Yes, sir. Okay. Now, given all of that, the first thing that we discovered many many years ago and we've taught successfully and it's led a lot of people to become millionaires is your most powerful wealth building tool is your income and when you give your income to someone else in the form of payments debt you slow down inhibit the ability to grow wealth because if you add up for instance the average car payment in america right now josh is a little over 500 a month if you invest 500 a month from 30 to 65 in a decent growth stock mutual fund it's about five million dollars hope you like the car

because that's what that car payment costs you if you keep a car payment your whole life like most people do but they could have had five million dollars instead they kept a car payment their whole life because the fact that they had a car payment was normalized by our culture, and they weren't feeling any pain from having the car payment, kind of like you. Yes, sir. It's not bothering you at all. It was bothering me more that you had a car payment a while ago than you. You follow me? Yes, sir.

And I used to have a truck, so I had a truck, I'd say probably a couple months ago that I completely paid off. That's good. So you're heading in the right direction. And then you went and bought a boat to replace the payment. Yeah, pretty much. probably a couple months ago that I completely paid off. That's good. So you're heading in the right direction. And then you went and bought a boat to replace the payment. Yeah, pretty much. I was just going to stay with their car and then pay off the boat. So here's the thing.

If you're going to commit to a millionaire plan, the shortest distance is two things. One is to avoid debt. And so you don't go buy boats unless you can pay cash for them. And you don't go buy boats unless you can pay cash for them. And you don't go buy cars unless you can pay cash for them. And you take the debt that you have and you work really, really hard to get rid of it as soon as possible. Okay. And then over to your other question.

In all of the millionaires that we studied, and we studied over 10,000 of them, not a single one said they made their money by efficient use of credit cards and collecting points in Maryland miles. Not one. That's not a millionaire game. That's a middle-class falling for Bank of America's bullcrap game. Discover's bullcrap game, where you make them rich. And so the millionaires, some of them do what you're doing, and some of them use a debit card and just pay for things because they don't want to take the chance of rationalizing their way into credit card debt, which you're about a half an eyebrow length from doing.

You're going to accidentally fall into credit card debt one of these days doing what you're doing because you're undisciplined in handling your money right now. And I'm not picking on you. I'm just observing. Okay? Now, you can do what you want to do. You're a successful young man. You make $100,000 a year.

You have all the toys and all the things out in your driveway that make people think you're making it, but you're broke. You have $44,000 in debt. You make $100,000, and you're calling me about how to efficiently use a credit card to give your son $4 in points into his little account. And so, you know, you need to back up and say, am I willing to change some of that? Am I willing to go another direction? Okay. And so I'm hitting you pretty hard here.

But the biggest enemy of success is not failure. It's mediocrity because you get comfortable in the middle ground of average, and you'll be average. You, right now, statistically, are a normal American, and normal sucks. Work your whole life, end up with nothing, and it all went to freaking banks in the form of payments, and none of it went into your mutual funds. Now, you got some going in your 401K, that's good. So I would take your $30,000 in stock, I would cash it out, and I would pay off your wife's student loan in your car and i'd sell your boat today now and now you're debt free and now you can start building some wealth and you

can buy you another boat later i've got boats i love boats i got two master crafts sitting on the lift waiting on me to head down there this weekend to the lake house i love boats i'm not against you having a boat i'm against your boat having you. And you paid as much for the stinking boat as you did your wife's car. Dude. Really. It hit me.

I think you and I have talked about this privately. It hit me a few years ago. The credit card company or the airline company is not my friend. Like, they're not hooking me up. And it's like... Hey, come here, buy in the building.

Come here, buy in the building. I got something for you. Hey, buy 10 of these things, bro. I'll just give you 10 bucks. That's not what's happening. They're investing in the potential that I'm going to fall down. They have looked at my debt profile. They've looked at the way I spend money, what I buy it on.

They know more about your behaviors than you do. That's exactly right. And so they are gambling on, hey, we're just going to keep giving them $10 a month. They're not even gambling. Yeah, that's true. It's an actuary table. They know. They're making an investment that I'm going to fall down, and they're just waiting.

$10 a month, $20 a month, $20 a month, $20 a month. Ah, there it is. His transmission fell out, and he just put $10,000 on this credit card. They know what the probability of you being in credit card debt is better than I know or you know. It's 100%. And you're making you're making 100 grand you're living in that zip code they know what bottled water you drink dude that's exactly right i mean the marketing analysis on the data on you especially these days with google where they're just completely they follow you they're they're they're completely going through your underwear drawer every day they know everything

about you uh and the nightstand i mean they're going through everything and and you've told them everything voluntarily and so now they can track you down and pin your ears to the wall i know because we do it we buy very targeted google ads very targeted facebook ads to get you people to plug into this stuff right and so i and we're not nearly as sophisticated as a lot of these other people. Well, see, you're the most altruistic businessman I know. And so anything off of that. But here's the thing. They're giving you that flight for a reason.

Yeah. They're not because they're your friend. Yeah. And by the way, it's never the good flight. Yeah. Jupiter has to be aligned with Mars. You can only travel in the age of Aquarius. So under the red moon or the blue moon, which is unbelievable.

Yeah. So try lining up those dadgum areas. But the point is, study what people who are wealthy have done, not what theory is. A lot of broke people, and I grew up this way. We sit around and talk. I sit around the campfire, sit around, you know, everybody's playing spades and sitting there on Friday night, and all the neighbors are sitting around. You're playing pinochle or whatever our parents played, you know, cards, and they're all talking about, they've all got theories about how rich people really are,

and all of them are wrong. Every one of them. If their theories were right, they wouldn't be sitting at that table anymore. That's right. Because they would have understood that, yeah. So your broke friends all got all these financial principles and theories. And so, hey, Cash, all right, Josh, if you're ready to change, you tell Kelly. If you're not, don't.

It's okay. If you're just mad at me, it's all right, too. Because I'm here. I've got a gift for that. If you tell Kelly, I'll sign you up for Ramsey Plus and put you through our class and teach you how to do this and I won't charge you a dime. Dr. John Deloney, Ramsey personality, is my co-host today. This is the Ramsey Show, where we give you common sense for your dollars and cents and your life. Ed and Liz are with us in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Hey, guys, how are you? Great. How are you? Better than I deserve. It says on my screen you're debt-free. Congratulations. How much did you pay off? $335,000. Woo!

How long did that take? Whoa! Nine and a half years. All right. And your range of income during that time? $96,000 to $144,000. Good for you. What do you guys do for a living?

I'm a teacher, and I'm a physician assistant. All right. Well, I'm guessing since it took nine and a half years and it was a lot of money, maybe you paid off the house. We sure did. All right. Talking to weird people. Way to go, you guys. How old are you guys?

34. And you have a paid-for house. That's ridiculous. What's this house worth? About $350. And you're 34 freaking years old. Wow. That's so awesome, man.

I'm so proud of y'all. Well done, well done. Touchdown. All right, tell us your story. What happened nine and a half years ago that put you on this Ramsey-type journey you're on? Sure. So after we got married, we kind of wandered in and out of debt with home improvement loans, car loans. We were still paying off student loans, using credit cards.

And, you know, we thought that we were doing well because we would pay it off before the interest started or, you know, immediately after. And, you know, we were just kind of playing with fire because all it would have taken was one loss of a job or a big expense and things would have gotten ugly real quick. So we really didn't start the kind of gazelle and tense until we found out that we couldn't have biological children and we realized we'd need about $25,000 for each adoption and we were planning on doing it twice. And we didn't want to go into more debt with our children, so we did fundraising and we were planning on doing it twice. And we didn't want to go into more debt with our children,

so we did fundraising and we did extra work to cash flow both of those during while we were paying everything else off. Wow. Around that time, we found you guys and we paid off the rest of our debt and mortgage in a short period. It had taken us seven years to pay off all those things in our $75,000 mortgage, and then two and a half years to pay off the other 75 of our mortgage. We did the last 46 in the past nine months.

Yeah, when you could see the finish line, you sprinted, huh? We started. Wow. That's incredible. I know most of my friends in my life can't do a workout program for nine days. How did y'all stay on this for nine years? So we started, I guess, just before we even knew about the kids, it was, well, let's just pay off our house. And we threw extra money at that for a long time, having that kind of be our ultimate goal to get that paid off.

And then, you know, when we kind of saw, well, we started watching the amortization schedule, we're like, hey, we could have this paid off by this time. And then it was like, well, maybe we could have it paid off by this time. You know, we just kind of watched that and it really motivated us to see, we were so close, let's keep going. My motto was debt free by 33 okay and you made it huh or real close yeah all right so um you've been married what 10 years yeah yep and you and you uh you found us how long ago about four and a half five years ago okay so that you were already kind of on the general path, and all we did was just help you tighten it up.

Is that how this works? Yeah, I mean, I think we were still, like I said, using credit cards and things kind of prior to you guys. I think, you know, we were kind of playing with fire. We were doing okay, but we weren't in good habits, I would say. And how did you find us, radio or Financial Peace University or what? Yeah, through podcasts and the radio show I was listening to. Okay, cool, cool.

How much is in your retirement? Right around $100. Okay, so your net worth is about a half a million already and you're 34. So that means you're probably going to be millionaires by 40 or so. We're hoping. Yeah, that's the track you're on you'll be baby step millionaires you've done this stuff the way we teach i'm so proud of y'all thank you what do you tell people the key to getting out of debt is you're 34 with a paid four hours you actually know well i think uh it's just having the budget and we have meetings weekly still. It used to take a lot longer,

and when we look back at our first couple of budgets that we did once we found you guys, they were really ugly and messy. And now it's just kind of habit, and the budget is so important. And I also teach your foundations class at the middle school that I teach at. Thank you. Yeah. And the one episode where Rachel talks about driving in reverse, that's what we were doing with our credit cards when we were using them. You know, we were driving in reverse and always looking at what we had paid.

Now that we use just the debit cards or just cash, now we can actually see forward and it's a lot easier. Powerful. Very cool. Very cool. Yeah, you've got to be careful what you teach because you'll learn it. Right. Yeah, nobody holds you accountable like a room full of middle schoolers either, right? Right. They're savages, man. Yeah, so teach you really do this or not, huh? Huh?

Huh? Tell the truth. What's it really like? Yeah. Yeah, they are savages, 13-year-old savages. Oof. Yeah. Wow.

Way to go, you guys. So proud of you. What are the kiddos' names and ages? So Eddie is four, and Elliot is two. Joy of your life, huh? Yes, yes. It was a long road to adopt them, but it's a beautiful gift from God, and we are just so, so blessed. Yeah, you received a beautiful gift, and you gave one, too.

Fabulous. So beautifully well done. Well done, well done. Yeah, their pictures are showing up on the YouTube feed. We're seeing them here. They're great-looking young guys. Look like full-on boys. I love it.

Oh, yes, they are. They are 100% boys. Yeah, I love it. Well, congratulations, you guys. We're so proud of you. We got a copy of the Legacy Journey for you. That's the next chapter in your story as you're on your way to being Baby Steps millionaires. And, of course, we'll give you another copy of the Total Money Makeover as well.

So you can give it away to someone and get them started on their journey because that's the, as you know, that's the roadmap, the blueprint on how to get where you are at 34 years old. You guys are so impressive. All right, count it down. Let's hear a debt-free scream. Three, two, one. We're debt free! Yeah!

I love it. So, you know what my problem is? One? I have talked to Ed and Liz 70,000 times in 30 years. So when Josh calls... It just wells up in you. And I know he should be them instead of him. Yeah. and I know he should be them instead of him. I'm already over there, and I have to stop a minute and try to get Josh to go with me.

Yes. Because I already go over there, and I'm like, I'm just going to kill you. That's right. I'm just going to kill you right here on the radio in front of 22 million people. And that's not fair to poor Josh because he's new to the game. He's just figuring it out. He's just getting there, and it wasn't fair to him to just take his head off, and I didn't.

But here's where Ed and Liz. that's the joke they're 34 he's 30 they make about the same amount they make about the same amount of money and their house is paid off yeah and four years later if he sells the boat he does this stuff that's why i and the problem is and you've done this in counseling as well, sometimes you want it for them more than they want it. And you can, yeah, I can never get myself in that trap because then I start wearing other people's garbage and you can't do that. No, I'm not wearing his garbage. No, not you. I'm just saying, man.

I can see it. I can see he can do it. I can feel it for him. I know he can do it. I mean, I know because I've got more data stored in my brain on this subject than any human walking the planet. He's taking these $5 checks from Discover and thinking, you know what? I'm really hooking my son up for the future.

Don't get me started. What if you didn't have a house payment? You could give that to that little boy, right? Or instead of giving him a... Or how about adding $50,000 to the equation for adoption while you're on the journey? Yeah. And go ahead and knock you're on the journey. Yeah. And go ahead and knock it all out, baby. That's exactly right.

Let's just put that in there, too, while we're at it. Ding, ding. See, the point being, folk, you can do this. But you know what the number one barrier of you doing this is? Is you believing you can do it. That's right. Number one. And I can't make you believe.

I can teach you. I can show you. I can be funny. I can yell at you. But I can't make you do it. But there they are. The two bookends. Right here in one hour. One hour, man. This is the Ramsey Personality, is my co-host. If you'd like to participate in the Dr. John Deloney show, you can email him at askjohn at ramseysolutions.com,

askjohn at ramseysolutions.com, or even call and leave a voicemail, and he'll get you on the phone and make you part of the program. It's a call-in show at 844-693-3291 here at ramsey solutions we want to transform so many lives that disruption spreads like wildfire across our country imagine a world where it's weird to have a student loan where everybody pays cash for cars where a credit card is the cigarette of the financial world it's no longer cool. Imagine that level of disruption. Imagine a world where people have learned from Dr. John Deloney how to do their relationships at a whole different level, from Ken Coleman how to run their careers at a whole different level.

If you want to join us on a crusade that's transforming people, we're currently on the hunt for software engineers, Ruby on Rails, Java, C Sharp sharp front-end technologies if you're a ux designer seo content marketing specialist we're hiring about 300 people this year and 150 of them are tech and uh so if you want to actually do programming uh on something that matters and where you get to see the results of it and by the way work only 40 hours a week we don't work 80 hours a week here even our coders don't work 80 hours a week here. Even our coders don't work 80 hours a week here. Even our platform guys don't work 80 hours a week here.

We go home to our families in the evenings. We're not confused about who's in charge here. If you want to find out about the available jobs, text WORK to 33789. WORK to 33789. Our question of the day comes from Blinds.com. They have a 100% satisfaction guarantee. Even if you mismeasure or you pick the wrong color, they'll remake your window blinds for free. You get free samples, free shipping, and with the new promos they run every month, you'll save even more.

Use the promo code RAMSEY to get the best possible deal. All right, today's question comes from Steven in Ohio. He says, I'm 29 and I work as a security guard earning a little over $19,000 this year. I live with my girlfriend and her two sons and I'm barely keeping my little family afloat. I'm stressed out because I can't get my girlfriend to be financially responsible even though she says she's on board. She voluntarily cuts her work hours hours leaving the bills to me the only thing she helps with is groceries because she receives food stamps how do i get her motivated about budgeting and saving

if she won't get on board should i give up the last two years with her and these boys oh man um boys. Oh, man. Brother, you are being taken advantage of, and you are financially supporting somebody who's not invested in you or this family or their safety and security. And I know that's hard to hear because clearly you love this person, and you love her kids, and you even refer to them as your little family. Right now they're not.

You are an outside participant who has been duped into paying for everything for everybody. This is hard. You can't get her motivated about budgeting and saving. You've tried. She's not interested in that. She's interested in you paying for her life and her boy's life while she does whatever she wants to do. This is heartbreaking, Dave. Can you – can someone like her – is there a percentage chance she's brought around with the right scenario, or is this just walking papers?

I always default to Henry Cloud's famous saying, which is she needs some problems. She needs some challenges. Right now, she's got a guy who's not making hardly any. I mean, was he just barely over the poverty line here? Yeah. He's struggling. Security guard work is hard, and it's late nights, and it's exhausting, all that. And I think she needs – and I hate to say that because she's clearly had a hard time.

She's got two boys. She's got a tough road ahead. But I think she's got to recognize, oh, this just doesn't actually happen this way. And here's my guess, dave and this isn't fair because again these things you never know the full story here if steven left there would be somebody new in relatively short order i think um and i think steven i just read through the lines here man it looks like he is trying and working and thinking and dreaming um but it's got to be heartbreaking yeah so i mean a best case scenario is he uh says okay the number one thing that breaks up families and breaks up marriages is money and

money fights money problems and money fights and you're having one and you're not even married and so um to see a future of this getting better without a an abrupt turn a u-turn in the behaviors um then uh then then yeah then you're just kidding yourself because let me just tell you if you go make a hundred thousand this doesn't get better it gets worse it magnifies it magnifies it and this thing, he cares more about this little family than she does. Well, then she doesn't know how to. That's right. She doesn't have the tools. That's right.

She doesn't have the tools. So, you know, if – I always want to give somebody a shot. Always. You know, so it wouldn't sound like I'm just done because you're just too stupid to help, and I'm walking out of here, okay? So instead, but I also don't want you to live in denial, and four years from now, I'll still be waiting on our change because that's BS, okay? But I would say something along the lines of, hey, number one thing breaks up families, and we're not even really technically a family yet, is money fights and money problems and we got those and so in order for me to stay here and in order for us to move towards marriage and move towards life and

me move into my new career and double my income um we're going to have to be on the same page about this and that's going to be we're going to get this family balanced and off of food stamps um you're going to be working and i'm going to be working and we're going to be living on less than we make and we're going to be responsible if you I'm going to be working, and we're going to be living on less than we make, and we're going to be responsible. If you don't want to participate in that, then that's your saying, no, I don't want you here. That's right. Because the price of me being here is that we're going to be grownups. And that's Stephen looking in the mirror and saying, what do I need?

What do I need in my life that's going to help me see my reflection with dignity and respect and value? And right now he's trying to get that by solving everyone else's problems he can't, right? So that's him looking in the mirror saying, here's what I deserve. The toxic, horrible old joke is, if you're going to marry a woman who loves spending money, you better enjoy making it. Okay. And that's obviously a uh you know a backward horrible joke but especially in this setting but uh but i mean you know if you marry a princess she ain't gonna grow up to be anything but a princess right if you marry a guy who's lazy he's not gonna grow

up to anything be anything but lazy if you marry these things and so unless they gotta be a change unless they go they have a moment and they have this epiphany, and sometimes that's an intervention of sorts that you're saying, it's an ultimatum, you're saying, I don't see this going good, going anywhere good 10 years from today, so I'm not going to do this anymore based on momentary feelings. Now, if we can do these things, then I can change my mind about it going forward, and I think we can go forward. But even as much as I love you, I can't participate in this anymore. And that's what Henry Cloud, our friend, again, says is a necessary ending.

It's when you lose hope that the future is going to get better. That's right. And I think it's important to call this out. He says here at the end, if she won't get on board, should I give up the last two years? Dave, we see this in investing, and we see this in relationships this sunk cost idea yeah and i talked to so many people in the relationships that say well i've got seven years in and yeah he's verbally abusive but i've already got seven years so what do you got another you want more another five years right um what two years are you giving up here these two years kind of suck they sound like they've been really brutal

on you right so you want yeah bring me yeah thank you may i here? That's right. These two years kind of suck. They sound like they've been really brutal on you, right? Yeah, bring me. Thank you. May I have another? No, thank you. I think I'll pass on that. It's like, get the investment, man. But yes.

Sorry, it's not an investment. It's hard, man. It's when you didn't deal with this earlier is all that two years was. You moved in. You should have dealt with it. You moved in with her. You did all this stuff in the wrong order, and you set yourself up for failure. And that's where you're sitting today.

My heart's broken for both of them, man. It would be very cool if they could sit down with a marriage counselor, with a pastor, and someone guide them through getting on a long-term vision for their, in quotes, little family. That's right. So we're going to get married. We're going to both work. We're going to both be responsible. We're going to bring in more income. We're going to model these little family. That's right. So we're going to get married. We're going to both work. We're going to both be responsible. We're going to bring in more income.

We're going to model these little boys. Get this thing off the poverty line so these little boys can have a better life, and we're going to be grownups because what we're dealing with here is he's got three kids. That's exactly right. Make it $19,000 a year. Man or woman, it's not a man or woman thing. It's a child thing. Adults devise a plan

and follow it. Children do what feels good. Dr. John Deloney, good hour. Good hour to James Childs, our producer. Kelly Daniel, daily dose of Ramsey advice in their life? Let them know about the Ramsey Call of the Day podcast. It's a quick hit of advice about life and money in under 10 minutes. Check out the Ramsey Call of the Day podcast wherever you listen to podcasts.