The Ramsey Show - App - Carrying Shame Is Like Carrying a Cinder Block (Hour 1)

Episode Date: May 21, 2020

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Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, broadcasting from the Dollar Car Rental Studios, it's the Dave Ramsey Show, where debt is dumb, cash is king, and the paid-off home mortgage has taken the place of the BMW as the status symbol of choice. Ramsey personality Dr. John Deloney is my co-host today on the show. We'll be taking your questions about life and money. Life is kind of crazy out there, and Dr. John has done a lot of crisis coaching and counseling with people in crisis situations, and certainly we've been working our way through one as a culture lately. So good to have him on board and here to answer your questions about relational IQ, anything. It doesn't have to do with COVID. It can have to IQ, anything. It doesn't have to do with COVID.

It can have to do with COVID. It doesn't have to do with anxiety, but it can have to do with anxiety. And, of course, we'll answer your money questions as well. Welcome back, John. Thanks, good man. How are you? Good, man. Life is good.

Let's talk to Julie. Julie's in Tennessee. Hi, Julie. Welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. Hi. Thank you so much for taking my call. I'm a healthcare provider in Tennessee, and I have noticed that most of my patients, since all of the COVID has started, the anxiety and depression is severe. I have patients that range from they won't come out of their house to

when they come into the office. I mean, their reality is their anxiety. How, as a healthcare provider, which is, this is not my field in mental health, how do I help them through this period? That's such a great question, Julie. So a couple of things I can, I don't rant on a lot of stuff. This is one of the things that I can get a bird in my saddle about. In fact, we shot a bunch of videos this morning on my take on anxiety and depression. So I won't get into all that here today other than to say I don't like anxiety as a diagnosis or as an identity or as a label or anything like that. I like to look at anxiety as just simply a fire alarm that says people are feeling disconnected and they are unwound and they are feeling not safe or scared. And so as a healthcare professional, you know this,

that there's been a ton of attention paid to this over the last few years. I've even seen it. I have a question for you before I give you my longer answer. Have you been intentional about the trainings you guys have received about being more hands-on with patients, touching more patients, looking them in the eye, spending a little bit more time with them? Has that kind of made its way through your training as well? It has. And I always touch my patients.

That's one of my, you know, whether they get a hug or, you know, I grab their hand, I constantly touch my patients. Oh, good for you. I think it helps calm their fear. Yeah. So here's a couple of things. One is when you hear anxiety or depression, think disconnection or lonely. And so you can impact this, like you said, with extra physical touch, with looking people in the eye, calling them, checking in on them. The second thing is when you hear anxiety, think fear.

People are scared about their future, about their past. And the reality is this has been a scary, unsettling season that we've been in. And then the third thing I like to tell folks is when you hear anxiety and depression, think kitchen on fire. We often, our kitchen's on fire, there's smoke everywhere, there's kids running, there's the dog everywhere, and yet we look to try to fix the fire alarm that's up above us. We want to get up there and take the batteries out of it instead of trying to look at the bigger picture and put the fire out in our kitchen.

And so really getting at your patients and finding out what are the real stressors. So it would be, I mean, if they're afraid about COVID coming into their office as an example. Right. You know, like a real good place to get sick in the hospital or a doctor's office you know so that's a real fear and a real stress right yeah and so the way to defeat that is with facts with information yeah instead of going i'm going to treat your anxiety i'm going to treat your you instead i'm going to deal with um some different give you some different facts there you go other than the ones that are using that are creating the fear

in context yeah right yeah in context once the fire alarm's going facts don't always help right well i mean my doc for instance is a personal friend we were having dinner the other night and he said um you know we've had zero covid cases in our offices and i mean he's a general medicine internist and so um you know that's a fact that makes me feel different about coming to his office right i've had 6 000 cases in my office right that's a different fact right you know and i'm like yeah okay i don't feel i don't feel the same but with those two different facts so you always say facts are your friends and that's one of the ways to say instead of reaching for the alarm and trying to say we're going to treat the anxiety let's treat the cause

of anxiety that will be an example that's fair and i also think it's important to norm it right i think people are i've been stuck in their house for 10 weeks now they're getting scared and scared you've been you wouldn't be a normal human they think they're the only only person struggling well are they are they feel um a little bit of shame about their fear right or embarrassment about the fear it's like a normal human that's been doing what you've been doing would be a little freaked right now yeah absolutely that's normalizing it yeah i got you yeah so i so i i think yeah recognizing the disconnection and lonely and the people need some information better information than just normal feelings yeah i think that's really important thank you so much for the work you're doing as a nurse

and god almighty thank you for being a health care professional who cares about people's hearts and minds and their emotional and mental and spiritual well-being, too. I play so much into the physical health side of things. I had a pastor a few years ago in a sermon used an example. He said it's sad that it went from the medical arts to the health care industry. Oh, man, I love that. And she's art. You're right. Versus just practice management, how many people can I herd through here and get my profit margins up?

Instead, she's actually connecting with the entire human. Oh, man. The top to bottom. And so she's more of an artist which is like that's to me that's like old school and i love that i had a good friend mark um he lives in texas he's in the nutrition industry and he said about a decade ago the big fear they all have is that if you have great relationships and you eat mostly healthy foods and you take care of yourself a lot of the industry sides of all this stuff goes away.

And so how do you monetize, just be a good person and be in good relationships and eat pretty well? Right? I mean, it kind of takes all the drama and the smoke out of everything. You know, back to what you were talking about a while ago, the whole field of mental health is to say there's some kind of emotional thing going on and then label it so that we can treat it. Yes. This person is a psychopath. We can deal with that.

This person over here is a multiple personality. We can deal with that. This person is dealing with bipolar. Right. We can deal with that. And really what you were saying earlier is in mind, anxiety is not one of those. There is very few things that I would label a medical condition, right, where you experience something and it lights up in an fMRI

and you can see the parts of the brain and the chemical transactions that are going on, that it's a medical condition. The rest of these things have been labeled and diagnosed and turned into diagnostics and insurance codes for that very reason. So there can be reimbursement. And then in some cases, head it off into pharmaceuticals. That's exactly right. How can I sell you a solution to this?

That's right. Instead of, let's take a hard look at the state of your kitchen. And is it on fire? And what are the things that you need to develop boundaries for and disconnection and relationships and all that stuff that goes into it but i i it's not different from what we do here that's not the problem here that is the symptom it's a big neon sign saying hey it's saying i'm disorganized i'm immature i'm buying stuff i can't afford um i'm in messy systems that's right that's right that's all that is it's a representation of all these other of all this crap going on in your life that led you into debt.

When it led me into debt, it was crap in my life. Absolutely. Same stuff. Very interesting. I've been laid low by anxiety, too, and I had to take a hard look at the world I'd created for myself. You bet. You don't want to be labeling yourself that, for sure. Dr. John Deloney, my co-host today on The Dave Ramsey Show.

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Go ahead and get started today. Go to Blinds.com to take advantage of this week's special offer. Rules and restrictions apply. thank you for joining us america this is the dave ramsey show open phones at triple eight eight two five five two two five my co-host today ramsey personality dr john deloney austin is with us austin's in utah Hi, Austin. Welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. Hi, Dave. Thanks for having me. Sure. What's up? So my wife and I are looking to buy our next primary home. We're putting our house up for sale and want to take all the cash out of our current home and figure out what to do with it for the next house.

We're thinking of putting a little less down on the new property and investing the rest in a mixture of taxable investment savings, maxing out some retirement, and paying for college funds. I wanted to get your opinion on all of that. So if you had a home that was paid for, would you borrow on it to invest um the house wouldn't be paid for that's what i asked that's not what i asked i said if you were sitting in your home and it was paid for would you go take out a mortgage to invest likely not it's about what you're about to do i guess so yeah yeah no i wouldn't that. I'd put it all down on the

house, and I'd be working the baby steps, 15% of your income going into retirement at baby step four, and I would start building your college out of your cash flow, and then any money you can find beyond that, I would work towards getting my home paid off. Would you think if I'm already at baby step four, investing 15% of my household income, we're doing that, would it be a smart move to take some of the cash and fund the college fund and knock out step five? What's your household income? $155,000. How old are your kids? Three and one. What's your household income?

$155,000. How old are your kids? Three and one. No, it would not be a smart move. You have plenty of money coming in and plenty of time. Let's use cash flow for baby step five instead of trying to lump sum it out. Because basically, again, we're borrowing on your house to fund a college fund for a three-year-old. That's the net result of this, because by not putting the money down, you're borrowing more money.

Agreed? Agreed. Yeah. So now I'm going to stick with getting the house paid off as fast as we can while putting 15% away and while starting to fund the kids' college fund. Hey, the good news is that you actually see all three of these things real clearly you see the house clearly and you see the need for college clearly and you see the need for retirement clearly a lot of people never get that far so you are way ahead of the average bear i liked that question here's why i always want to take the most obnoxiously creative way instead of just

taking the path you know what i mean oh you're a scammer and a schemer too like me no i'm a somersaulter and uh yeah that's what sharon says and uh and uh in a cartwheeler why can't you just walk across the room why do you have to just do all this crap why yeah she's always like you're scheming you're scamming again and i did that for years because I've always tried to figure out, you know, in my mind, if it wasn't complicated, it wasn't sophisticated. God almighty, that's how I ended up with two stupid PhDs. That same problem, man. That's the same problem.

Yeah, you got real ones. I am this guy. Well, we could take this money and we could move it over here and then that's going to be cut. Just pay your house off, man. Just do it. Yeah. Good for you.

I like that question and great answer. The cleanliness. Hey, Austin, you're on a really good track. And so your mind is addressing the right things. All we're doing is fine-tuning what you're doing while you're addressing it. So you're doing good stuff. All right, Ashley is with us in California. Hi, Ashley.

Welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. Your question for Dr. John. Hi, Dr. John. Hi, Ashley. Welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. Your question for Dr. John. Hi, Dr. John. Hi, Dave Ramsey. God bless me today because both of you, I have both of you. My husband, he's worked for a long time providing for the family, and I've been a stay-at-home mom, and I have three little babies. And he's asked the courts to terminate awarding support.

He wants 100% child custody. He's transferred our money out of our joint account. He has our two cars in his position. We're fighting for child custody and divorce. And I don't have a financial plan. Now that my future is a divorced mom with three babies, I'm scared, and I'm shaking right now. So I want to tell you thank you for the call and thank you for the trust there. Okay?

Do you hear that? Yeah. Yes. Thank you for being brave. I appreciate that call. Thank you. No, you go brave. I appreciate that call. Thank you. No, you go ahead. I'll go ahead.

I got this kind of partway through. So y'all are going through a divorce. How long has this been going on? Just about a month. So is this a blindside? Sounds like a total surprise. Absolutely. Okay.

What was the reason? For me. Okay. absolutely okay what was the reason for me okay um well um it i mean the case is still going on so i have to be careful what i say okay let's let's don't get into that let's just talk about you tell me what you're working through right now tell me what you're going through right now say it out loud i'm i have i i just want my kids back i have no money i've been stay-at-home mom i don't have a plan and i'm hoping you guys could give me some guidance what to do next like once everything dies down is there some reason that the courts would say that you're an unfit mother they didn didn't say that. Okay. So they're not going to.

No, I'm asking if there is a reason that they might. Have you done something wrong? No, nothing. So the only thing is he just thinks he's got the economic power, so he's going to bully his way through this and force you to not have. The courts don't do that, honey. It would be highly unusual for a judge to take your parental rights away simply because he is earning an income and you're not that would be like like

i've never heard of it right 30 years of doing this so i just and cars and homes and things yeah that's not going to happen you're going to get half of his money you're going to get a bunch of child support you're going to get as many cars as you want if you want them they may have payments on them you may not want them uh you you're going to you know have you got a lawyer yes i do okay is your lawyer got a backbone i don't even know what that really means at this point yeah you do because i've lost my i've lost my kids right now he has he has full custody of my kids right now for a second for a second and i know it feels like i met the courts

decided that yeah because he falsified um allegations and i was talking about a minute ago okay so you've got to get those your attorney has to walk through get those cleared up and then you come back in and you're going to, you know, once that's cleared up, you're going to get there. So what you've got more than anything is you've got an income problem for you in the meantime and in the short term and in the long term. And so what you are forced to do that you didn't want to do was, you know, start thinking about a career as a single mom. And right now, as a lady who needs to make as much money as possible to pay a lawyer to get really sharp teeth and go take bites out of things. And you cannot do this by yourself. So in addition to an attorney, you've got to have a friend, friends, people from a local church, people from your

kid's school, whatever that looks like. You've got to have people in your corner because you can't walk through the next two months, three months. You're going to be grieving this for years, the arc of this thing. You've got to have a community that walks through. You can't do this by yourself. I'm not sure that you have the right attorney, and it might be because of the economic situation. I don't know.

But you need to create some money, create some income, and that's five or six jobs, whatever you can do right now. You ain't got anything else to do if he's got the kids. Let's just go make a bunch of money. And then you're going to have to put your attorney in the corner and say, either you are going to go get this crap straightened out or I'm going to get someone who is. This is your job. If someone's going to take my kids, we're going to war.

A bunch of people are going to have a problem. We're going to war. That's right. A bunch of people are about to have a problem. And your attorney's got to have that heart. And you've got to have people holding your hand that love you and that care about you and that will prop you up and hold your arms up in the desert as you go through this. So in the short term, create an income doing anything that's legal and moral and a bunch of it. In the long term, start laying out some career goals and some vision.

That'll start to drop some of your fears away. Ken Coleman's materials will help you with that. And in the interim, as far as the other stuff goes, you just need a good lawyer or this lawyer needs to start doing her job. One of the two. This is the Dave Ramsey Show. you know what disappoints and angers me to no end at a time when most people are pulling together to help one another identity thieves are using our heightened levels of fear and anxiety to prey on us in some pretty scary ways scammers are setting up fake testing sites just to collect people's credit card and social security numbers.

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Yeah, on the debt-free stage right here in the lobby, real humans are here. Jeff and Darcy are with us, along with their kiddos, Logan and Ella. Hey, guys, welcome! Hello. How you doing, Dave? Where do you guys live? Just south of Birmingham. We're in Alabaster, just south of town.

Nice. Okay, cool. Welcome to Nashville. How you doing, Dave? Where do you guys live? Just south of Birmingham. We're in Alabaster, just south of town. Nice. Okay, cool. Welcome to Nashville. Thank you. And up here a couple of hours drive north to do your debt-free scream. That's what we hear. That's the rumor. I love it.

How much you paid off? $69,000 in about 17 months. Wow. And your range of income during that time? $130,000. Cool. What do y'all do for a living? Well, I work. I'm a salesman

in the outdoor industry. I kind of have the cool job as far as men are concerned. I sell hunting and fishing equipment, work for a lot of big national and global brands that you probably recognize. We're going to talk after that. All John's thinking samples right now. He's just thinking samples. I got them in my truck

and I brought the cue with me too. And then Darcy stays at home to help children, helps raise our children, and also teaches after-school art classes to both children and senior adults. What kind of debt was the $69,000? Well, it was a little bit of everything, kind of like a lot of your listeners. We did not have credit card debt, oddly enough, but we had a student loan. We had two cars, and we had a pile of medical debt that we had to work through just from not being educated on. I mean, we had insurance the entire time, but much like what you've, I've heard you talk about in the lessons, we, you know, we just didn't know what we were

doing there. And so it was a mixture. Yeah. Cool. Well, I understand. So what happened 17 months ago? What was the wake up call? Well uh Darcy had kind of been there right we we took your class and failed it about 10 years ago so we're flunkies and uh we went through this and I knew all the one-liners I drive a lot so I knew the program and just never applied it to my life whatsoever and um I guess about 17 months ago in August I was traveling east of Atlanta one night and got a phone call she and I had already started in a little stewardship class at our previous church home in birmingham and i was traveling in georgia i gotta call at two in the morning calls at two in the morning you're ever good right so uh our two oldest kids aren't here today

we sold them during a debt snowball we took your advice but my oldest son jacob called me at two in the morning over there in georgia and i answered the phone i can't believe i heard it but i woke up answer the phone and on the other end of the line was was jacob and you know when you can hear fear in your kid's voice right and uh i answered the phone, and Jacob had shared with me that his mom had taken her own life that night at home. Oh, my God. And that was probably the one thing that kind of got us going. See, I knew it.

Everybody lost money on this bet. But that was probably what got us really motivated. That's what got me on board. Let me make sure I understand. That was your ex-wife ex-wife yes okay i was married when i was younger in college okay so the other two kids okay i got it and uh anyway we um we had divorced and we had a son together and she struggled for a long time and uh anyway that was probably the one thing that's kind of sparked the fire under me and got me moving and got me on board where she already was. And we kind of came together, which, as you know, is paramount to this program.

And at that point, we came home and decided to get serious about it. I was sitting in the carpool line one day to pick up Ella from school. And on your program, you guys were giving away leadership materials on your program for 100 people. And I happened to win it. Never won anything on the radio in my life before, but I won that. And I thought, if that isn't God telling me it's time to get involved and get focused. So you not only went from just listening and not doing it. You went ahead and just became a coordinator automatically.

Coordinator, absolutely. We've done multiple classes. We do them all. We do the online events. Wow. We're leading classes now. John and Madeline Scully and santonio who you know john and maddie i sit in on their classes and vice versa they sit on ours we've

got to be got to be friends through facebook and wow so we're doing it man wow very cool and i plan on doing it for a long long time you know we're not only do i plan on continuing to coordinate but you don't know it yet but i'm coming to work for you okay all right well i'll take i'll we'll take the notice right now let my boss if he's listening not right now yeah eventually that's not why you're here today that's not so um but the uh uh you know i was speaking at a friend of mine's funeral with a another two two of two of us guys were speaking that were our speakers and um he said something in that funeral that i've never forgotten as many years ago another two of us guys were speaking that were our speakers, and he said something in that funeral that I've never forgotten. It was many years ago.

He said, death and births when a baby is born are a tuning fork for your life. You suddenly go, bing, and with her, your ex-wife's suicide, it just, bing, and you went, this is out of tune. I've got to get lined up. You're absolutely right. And I want to be clear, that was definitely the one event I can point to. But I also knew in my own life, I had a great godly example. I just ignored what I knew to be right for so long. And I knew what was right.

And that was just the one thing that lit the fire. But there was more to it than that for sure. I want to do it for these guys in addition. Darcy, the problem with Jeff is he doesn't do anything halfway. And so when he decided that this was going on you're like i kind of wish i hadn't brought this up right i mean you were you were thankful that you were going to finally do it but oh my god yeah he does he he takes it and runs yeah you know i came home dave from traveling one week had my guitar with me i play guitar every day and one of the few material possessions i

really love in this world is my, is my Taylor guitar. And I was driving home and I got a call from the credit union about the brand new Highlander that I deserved. And we weren't making the payments on. And I just was so infuriated. I was like, why in the world are we behind? Which of course I call her and like, why are we behind?

And she goes, I've been telling you we're behind. You're just not listening. And so I stopped and I was going to sell that guitar to the guy that sold it to me to make that car payment, which, as you know, was like sticking my finger in a hole in the side of the hull of a boat and knew that wouldn't fix the problem. Came home that night. We sat down until 2.30 in the morning, and we laid it on the table. It was a school night.

We laid it all out there and said, this is it. This is where it ends, and we're changing direction. And, buddy, after that, like you said, it was on. I mean, it was. What do you tell people? You've done multiple classes. You've been highly successful. You've been a coordinator multiple times.

What do you tell people the key to getting out of debt is? There's several. And I think to each person it applies differently. But first and foremost, you've got to decide. You've got to draw that line in the sand, and you've got to decide. It's time. Just like what you say. I hear you say it all the time.

You'll clap your hands, and we're going. And so you've got to decide, first of all. And then I always tell our classes, I stress to our classes, which shout out to our classes out there in Birmingham. We love our support group. But we tell them all the time, you've got to find your why, just like Simon says. You've got to find your why. You've got to know your why. And then you've got to have your I've had it moment the time you've got to find your why just like simon says you got to find your why you got to know your why and then you've got to have your i've had it moment and

you got to decide and once you do that but you got to do it i mean i tell guys all the time you got to love your family and your legacy more than your stuff and you've and you got to be ready to to shed it and just rock and roll and lock down on this stuff. Hey, Darcy, to the loud, lovely, passionate husbands out there who sit next to quiet, brilliant, beautiful, wonderful wives, what's the one thing that you want to tell those men? Just be there for your wife and be there for your family and listen to them and just just support them and oh you said the l word listen right listen good for you let's go back let's go back today let's get for you

darcy uh john john you're just causing trouble i'm telling you darcy right there is a ninja you can see it you can see it you know again she was there first she was ready i mean she figured out a way to make it his idea she is the side of the mountain that he tethers off of and goes well i mean we got serious i mean i sold all and one of the companies i work for i don't know if i can even say who i work for let's uh let's get straight to it i don't know if I can even say who I work for. Let's get straight to it. I don't want to lose our time here. Sure. $69,000 paid off in 17 months, and we see why. Making $130,000. These guys are rock stars.

You guys are heroes. Jeff and Darcy, Logan and Ella from Birmingham, Alabama. Count it down. Let's hear a debt-free scream. Three, two, one. We're dead free. Yeah. That's how it's done, baby.

We've got a copy of Chris Hogan's Everyday Millionaire's book for you. That is definitely the next chapter in your story. You guys are incredible. Thank you so much. What a great story. This is the Daveave ramsey show folks i love telling you about well-made, well-thought-out products. Today, I'm talking about Grip6 belts. I don't know about you, but I'm not a fan of traditional belts.

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And Georgia says, should debt be a factor when breaking up with a significant other? Do you wait it out while they clean up their debt? I don't want to get married to someone if I'm going to have to turn around and pay off their debt they shouldn't get married just by that question as far as i'm concerned nobody should marry you nope because everybody's gonna bring something a whole bunch of stuff i don't like that question i don't like uh the attitude of the question. How about that? That's it. I mean, yeah. Because what you're saying, Chloe, is that debt and you having to pay off someone else's debt is more important than who you're choosing to spend your life with and more important than that person. It's kind of like I had a lady call me one time. She said, my boyfriend my getting ready to be my fiancee wants a prenup and i said for what he has a classic car oh gosh so don't marry

him no absolutely not he's choosing a stinking car over you already and burn the car down it's worth 18 months in jail for that one that's worth it you could just empty a few rounds into it. But, yeah, it's just like – Yeah, it's kind of that same spirit here, Chloe. You're choosing your – no one is worth it to you to pay off their debt, and that's not a good place to be, Chloe. No, and when you join in marriage you're agreeing before your friends and your community and whatever government you happen to be saying

before god whoever you're getting married in front of i'm taking them and i'm taking everything they're bringing with me and we're going to work on whatever that is together and stuff will emerge over 10 years and 20 years, you're taking it together. And if you go in with that attitude of, I just, man. So let me back up and give you a little bit of grace and let's ask it a different way. Let's pretend you hadn't asked it the way you asked it, which was a wee bit revealing. But aside from that, let's pretend you just said the first part. Should debt be a factor when breaking up with a significant other my answer has always been no uh you know the rare

what would be a factor is their unwillingness to address it the spirit of it right yeah i'm going to stay in debt the rest of my life oh i, I hate debt. Then you're not a match. Or I'm not going to hear your concerns that are emanating from your heart about how you hate debt. Yeah. And I don't care what you have to say about things. Debt's okay. I'm always going to have debt. And if you don't like that, forget it. Well, I'd forget it.

There you go. But if somebody's got $100,000 in debt and everything else in the relationship is right, including the fact that you're saying when we get married together we're going to address this and they're already starting to address it, we're going to get it paid off, we're going to go gazelle intense, we're going to get this knocked out, then that's marriage material dave ramsey's kids were not told to pick a spouse based on whether they had debt or not you just caused wrecks in middle america well i didn't i didn't yeah but i did say you know don't marry somebody that it has a different value system than you have i love it which is don't you know you know and a different value

system is somebody's gonna be irresponsible with money well they're not gonna listen to your heart i had a friend of mine whose um daughter uh guy came to him you know young man came and asked for uh his dad her dad's permission to marry her and he said no because you don't work i've never seen you keep a job because everything else about you i like but you don't work. I've never seen you keep a job. Because everything else about you I like. But you don't work. He should be in the Dad Hall of Fame. Yeah.

And you know what? What happened was this. He said, I love you, and I'll teach you how to work. And if you'll work hard for a year, and you'll stay on a job, and you'll act like you're starting to develop that muscle of work ethic, then you can earn my daughter's hand. He didn say it you don't have enough money he didn't say you know it wasn't a value job he said it was a character issue the kid's lazy and he's like you know young man was lazy he said you know yeah that's dad hall of fame stuff because what he did was the guy ended up

marrying his daughter as he did you know he didn't have a model in his life, and this man, the new father-in-law to be, came alongside him and walked with him and coached him and loved him, and he married his daughter. But he brought a character quality to him that wasn't there, and boy, he got his attention. I'll tell you what. No. You don't like to work.

I love it. Good for him. Kid about fell out of his chair, you think his attention. I'll tell you what. No. You don't like to work. I love it. Good for him. Kid about fell out of his chair, you think? Yeah. Yeah. Well, my father-in-law told me. I won't say that on the air. No, don't.

He's a Texas hunter. He put me on notices, but I'll say he's good. And rightfully so. He's a great man. All right. Paul is with us. Paul is in New Mexico. Hi, Paul.

Welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. Hi, Dave and John. I've bought a lot of books recently. Hi, Paul. Welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. Hi, Dave and John. I've bought a lot of books recently. Well, thank you. Yeah. My question is, seven years ago, I've done stupid, hardcore, and I lost my house, lost my relationships, I've lost cars, and pretty much in a state of depression where I would just throw bills away. I wouldn't even look

at them. I didn't even address them. But today I'm a better person and I've cleaned up my credit to where I've never had any judgments or I don't have any collection of my report now. But my question to you guys is how do I deal with the guilt and shame of like where i was and uh do i need to reconcile with all those people that i've hurt when you say reconcile are you you mean financially pay people back or you mean reconcile yeah let people know that i hurt like you know like old like old bills and all that stuff like that or just anybody that

they've done is it Where does grace come in? I really don't know. I've got a couple of thoughts here, and Dave, I'd love to get your heart on this too. Here's kind of the way, the simplistic way that I look at guilt and shame. I think of guilt as a cinder block or a brick, and when I do something dumb, I pick that brick up for a minute and i carry it and i should carry it because i violated either my value system or the value system of somebody else or an agreement i hurt somebody whatever that may be shame is when i put that brick in my backpack and i decide i'm gonna carry it around forever um there's also shame if somebody's

a victim and they are told you will keep that brick in your back, but that's another conversation. So for this particular conversation, what I would tell you is, um, you've been to the bottom and you've clawed and scratched and done some work to get your way out of it. Carrying that brick around, that's a decision that you're making. And what I'm going to tell you to do is put the brick down. Don't carry it anymore. It's heavy and it's old. Now, there's a great Paul Thomas Anderson quote that is, you may be through with the past, but the past is not through with you.

You may need to go pay some folks back that you still owe money, or if you treated people badly, that's one of the famous 12 steps, is going back and making amends. Dave, what do you think about folks who, like in a bankruptcy situation, or if you still owed somebody money from the past? Yeah, if you have not filed bankruptcy, the debt is still there, and so it's going to catch up with you. So you need to go clean them up from a practical standpoint because it's still legally owed.

Is that where you are? Well, as far as my credit report, I don't have anything on it. And everything that I had in collections I cleaned up. So let's as my credit report, I don't have anything on it. And everything that I had in collections, I cleaned up. So let's forget the credit report. Okay, so wait a minute. What else is there? It's just going back to, like, you know, I've had time to go back to old bills and just, you know, like I need to call these people up and be like,

hi, remember me, but I don't know. What kind of old bills are there that aren't on your credit bureau? They were like medical, like small, under 200 bucks or, you know, like 50 or something like that. Yeah. So $1,000 would do a lot of cleaning on your conscience? Yeah. Probably worth it. Absolutely it's worth conscience? Yeah. Probably worth it. Absolutely it's worth it.

Yeah. I mean, just because it's not in your credit bureau doesn't mean you don't owe it, by the way. That just means it's not been reported. And so, yeah. But overall, I think, you know, the windshield is larger than the rearview mirror, and that's called grace. And so we look in the rearview mirror to remind us how to change lanes, but we look forward and we learn from what we just drove by.

And all of us do that, me included. I lost everything when I was in my 20s. So you can't unring a bell, dude. You've got to move on. And that's called forgiving yourself in some of these cases. But in some cases, there's people and some actual bills that you probably do need to go back and clean up. He's going to feel 100 pounds lighter. Yeah, for $1,000.

Oh, man. Goodbye. Good for you. Goodbye. This is The Dave Ramsey Show. This is James Childs, producer of The Dave Ramsey Show. Once again, you made The Dave Ramsey Show one of the top four most popular podcasts last year. To get your daily dose of motivation and inspiration

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