The Ramsey Show - App - DAVE RANT: I Told You NOT to Take the PPP Loan! (Hour 2)

Episode Date: September 28, 2020

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Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, broadcasting from the Dollar Car Rental Studios, it's the Dave Ramsey Show, where debt is dumb, cash is king, and the paid-off home mortgage has taken the place of the BMW as the status symbol of choice. I am Dave Ramsey, your host. Thank you for joining us, America. We're glad you're here. Open phones at 888-825-5225. You know, the easiest thing about doing this show is the answers are always the same. You guys riding around in your car, you already know what I'm going to say. If you've listened to this show for six months, you know what I'm going to say when somebody calls in.

And why are the answers always the same? Because they're not based on nuanced concepts. They're based on principles. Principle is the law of gravity will cause your butt to hit the sidewalk if you jump off a building. That's a principle. Well, I sort of got these cool wing things I want to try. Yeah, but there's always the law of gravity there are principles

like we don't borrow money that's a principle the borrower is the slave of the lender we always have a plan don't build a tower without first counting the cost always live on less than you make because a foolish man devours all he has these are principles

always be outlandishly, outrageously generous, because generous people are unbelievably attractive. They're the best people on the planet, and you get to choose to be one today. Ready, set, go. These are principles. Another principle is what Barbara Bush said a thousand years ago, and I've been given credit for it lately, but I wish I had said it. I just stole it from her. What happens in your house is a whole lot more important than what happens in the White House. If you're waiting on Washington to fix your life, Dave Ramsey

adds to that, you're stupid. Because Washington can't even fix itself. It's the island of misfit toys. And you're waiting on the Democrats to fix your life? Ha ha ha ha! You're waiting on the Republicans to fix your life? Ha ha ha ha! The only shot you got at fixing your life is you fixing it.

And so when COVID hits and the world comes to a freaking screeching halt, because we're all going to die from the pandemic, hardly anyone did, statistically, the survival rate, by the way, for all age groups is north of 99%. For all age groups, just in case you haven't looked at the cdc site lately doesn't mean you didn't get sick said survival rate but we shut the whole world down and so we needed the government to help us i'm from the government and i'm here to help is a phrase that should cause you to be terrified. And they came out with the PPP loans. You remember the PPP loans?

We're going to give businesses these loans because we told these businesses that they had to shut down because the whole world is going to freaking die, and if you go to a restaurant, you're going to kill your mother. And so you must die at home. And we shut the whole economy down, and everyone's at home sucking their thumb in abject fear, and poverty sets in, and the government comes riding in on a white horse and says, we're going to give you free money. Oh, wait, it's a loan, but it's not really a loan.

It'll be a grant because we're going to forgive it as long as you maintain your payroll. I got death threats from some of you morons because I told no one to take out these PPP loans. Stay away from it. It's a trap. Don't step up on the door. They're going to pull the lever. You churches are absolute idiots for taking out a loan from the government as if they're not going to come in and interfere and tell you how to operate and violate your freedom of religion because oh it's not a loan dave it's a grant you're just so naive and you're such a fanatic and you never borrow

money and this is the worst times these are unprecedented times we have to pivot remember unprecedented and pivot two words that we just wore the crap out in April? You remember these? I heard them. Over and over and over and over and over again. And I'm on here screaming all the Ramsey personalities are on all of our media events screaming, do not take out the PPP loan. From Politico today. When the government pledged to give small business billions of dollars in rescue loans during the pandemic,

it was all for almost too good to refuse. The loans should be forgiven if employers only maintain payroll. In little more than four months, the Paycheck Protection Plan, the PPP, doled out $525 billion to 5.2 million borrowers. Lenders that help the government deliver the money are warning that the effort is running into new delays. Well, there you go. Here's this one. Check this out. are warning that the effort is running into new delays. Well, there you go. Here's this one. Check this out.

The banks say the processes for converting the government-backed loans into grants has been frustrating and has not happened at all. A lack of communication from the Small Business Administration. Now I'm shocked. And the Treasury Department. You mean government doesn't communicate? Which have run the effort since Congress created it in March. Banks which have loaned their own money with the expectation that it would be repaid by the government have been submitting applications for loan forgiveness to the SBA since August the 10th,

but the lenders say the agency has been silent on whether any of the applications will be accepted. To date, the SBA said Thursday it has received 96,000 forgiveness applications, representing fewer than 2% of the total loans, but has not approved one. Not one loan has been forgiven out of 96,000 applications, and that's only 2% of them. No bank I know anywhere in the country has received any money from the SBA, said Brad Bolton, president and CEO of Community Spirit Bank in Alabama. The warnings from lenders are raising new doubts about the implementation of the small business rescue effort.

Well, no crap, which was seen by many as a success, not by me. Its authority to issue new loans expired on August 8th. Thank you, Jesus. And there is a broad bipartisan support to relaunch the program if lawmakers can strike a deal on economic relief. You've got to be kidding. You idiots are going to do it again. The confusion is creating potential headwinds for small businesses

as they struggle to emerge from a recession, and their loans that were supposed to be forgiven have not been. Adding to the frustration is a growing list of unresolved questions from banks about how to handle the forgiveness applications. Banks say they've gotten conflicting information from various SBA officials. The SBA people, if you don't know, is the DMV of the federal government for small business. Completely freaking incompetent. Cannot find their butt with both hands. And they've been given this task to run this thing, and they cannot do it. They don't have

the capacity intellectually. They don't have the capacity process and systems-wise. They're complete freaking nincompoops. And you got $525 billion laying on their desk that's going to go from not being forgiven to being a loan with your local bank. They've pretty much been radio silent over the last few weeks, said the Consumer Bankers Association General Counsel. There's still plenty of technical issues banks have as we push the SBA to offer some guidance. They can't find their way to work. Don't look for guidance from them. The situation echoes problems that plagued the program at its start

when the Trump administration rushed to launch the lending vehicle but left banks and businesses in the dark about key details. There's this ridiculous entitlement BS that our culture has developed that says when we're in a crisis, the government has to rush in and fix our lives. And everyone was yelling, fix our lives, fix our lives. So we threw money at it. And no guidelines and no systems and no processes.

And the loans aren't going to be forgiven because of incompetence. And I'm going to sit here and say it. I'm sorry. I told you so. I told you not to take the money. I told you over and over not to take the money. Two of you threatened to burn my house down, but I told you not to take the money.

It's a principle. The government is not here to help you. They're a parasite. They're a tick on your butt. This is The Dave Ramsey Show. Families all over the country are discovering a faith-based and budget-friendly way of meeting health care costs, whether they're anticipated or completely unexpected. For example, take the Olcheski family from LaGrange, Texas. Jeff and Carice had just celebrated the birth of a new baby boy. Shortly after, they had another expensive medical issue come up. They could have faced a huge

financial setback, but thanks to Christian Healthcare Ministries, the Olcheskis were spared from a ton of medical bills. As members of CHM, they're part of a group of believers who financially and spiritually support each other. CHM is the longest-serving health cost-sharing ministry and is a Better Business Bureau-accredited charity. It's Christians helping other Christians, and it shared nearly $97,000 to help the Olcheskis. To be a part of Christian Healthcare Ministries, visit chministries.org. That's chministries.org. CHM is a proud sponsor of Dave Ramsey Live Events. Thank you for joining us, America.

This is the Dave Ramsey Show. Common sense for your dollars and cents. Dylan is up next. Dylan is in Little Rock, Arkansas. Hi, Dylan. Welcome to the Dave Rock, Arkansas. Hi, Dylan. Welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. Hey, Dave. Thanks for all your wise counsel.

Thank you. My question today is I've been saving up for something, probably a vehicle, looking to probably a vehicle in the next year or two. Don't know if I should pay cash for it or um finance it um and here's why i asked that question um of course i've got these savings and mutual funds and things getting about eight percent and um and it it kind of would give me kind of make me sick take that money out pay cash for a vehicle and lose that interest okay then you want the interest more than you want a car. Yeah.

I guess so. Yeah. So here's the thing. I think you're a fairly new listener or an infrequent listener or something, but what I discovered years ago when I went broke and had the opportunity to start over because I was stupid was that I couldn't find any rich people to talk to that could tell me that they got rich leaving money in a mutual fund and borrowing money on a car. I only found middle-class people that did that.

When I talked to old rich people, what they said was, we never had any payments, and so we always had money. And then now years later, and a bazillion airline miles later, lots of research projects and best-selling books later, after that, 30 years after, 32 years after going broke, I'm not broke anymore, and I quit borrowing money back then. 32 years ago, I stopped. I don't borrow money for any reason, ever, for anything.

And so what that has always meant is that if I made an income, I always had some money. It was never handed to someone else. Now, we did a large study about three years ago. We began the process, and it culminated in Chris Hogan doing a book called Everyday Millionaires, and we did a study of 10,167 millionaires. It's the largest study of millionaires ever done in North America. Not one that we interviewed said that they became a millionaire by leaving their money in an investment and taking out a car payment.

83% of them said they had not had a car payment in 25 years. And so the conclusion is that they became millionaires because they stayed out of debt. Not they stayed out of debt when they became a millionaire. It didn't happen that way. It was the other way around. And so the causal indication of the research is that debt avoidance keeps cash flying off of your income instead of flying to the bank it flies into your account and there's something emotional that happens for all of us me included i teach this stuff for a living dylan uh you're a kind of a

numbers guy you're a numbers cruncher and i I am too. But something emotionally happens when I actually lay a stack of $100 bills in the middle of the table at the car dealership. I have this moment, like an oh, crap moment emotionally. And so it makes me realize I'm buying something, where if I just sign a piece of paper and they hand me the keys and I drive off, emotionally it doesn't register in my brain that I actually just went $35,000 in debt. Just did that. Yeah.

Yeah. And there's all kinds of studies that back that up, by the way. But you and I have had that experience because we're numbers guys. We tend to look at going, i can make eight percent or ten percent on my mutual fund and i could probably get a one or two percent maybe even a zero percent car loan and i can make that spread and why wouldn't i make that spread and that's a on the surface it sounds right but then when you have that moment and you go i don't have any payments and the pandemic hit. I don't have any payments. Yeah.

Oh, now I understand, you know. I'm sorry? I just love the advice. There's a difference in middle class and rich people, and who do you want to be? Yeah, and I love that, just looking to the future and that millionaire study. Hey, I'll give you a copy of that book. Enjoy it.

It's called Everyday Millionaires. I'll send it to you. Kelly will pick up. Thanks for calling in, brother. I appreciate it. Yeah, there's a – what was the old quote? It was rich people ask how much, poor people ask how much down how much a month. You know?

And Zig Ziglar used to say another one I always like. He said poor people have big TVs, rich people have big libraries. You know, it's that kind of, obviously, it's not always true. Rich people got big TVs too, okay? I mean, because they can afford a big TV. But the point is, you know, what gets you there is the point of these little sayings that we throw around, these little narratives we just pitch out there. But they're good quotable quotes.

You know, what is the shortest distance between where you are and where you want to be with money, wealthy? And if the shortest distance involves immorality or hurting someone, you wouldn't take that line. But oddly enough, it's very seldom that is the shortest distance. The shortest distance between where you are and wealthy is debt-free, build an emergency fund, walk the baby steps that we teach. So thank you for calling in, brother. I appreciate you. Open phones at 888-825-5225. You hear me say everyone needs a will, but I get a lot of questions asking if a simple online will is right for

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That's QUIZ to 33-789. Youngstown, Ohio. Michael is calling. Hey, Michael, welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. Hi, how are you? Better than I deserve. What's up? I'm on baby step number two,

and I'm calling to see if it changes anything based on the fact that my car loan is 0% interest. Nope. Okay. You list your debts smallest to largest regardless of the interest rate as this debt snowball. Pay minimum payments on everything but the little one and attack the little one. This is not an interest rate problem. You're going to pay off all your debts very, very quickly,

and interest is really not going to factor into it for that reason very much. How much debt have you got total? $98,000, including my home. Okay. How much of that's your home? $68,000. Okay. So you have $30,000 and baby step two. How much of that is car? Pretty much all of it. $800 on a credit card. I can pay that off. What's your household income? I make around $50,000, $60,000 a year, depending on overtime and bonuses. And you have a $30,000 car debt? Yes.

Ooh. Well, probably need to sell the car, actually. When you own things with wheels and motors that total up to being more than half your annual income, it's very, very difficult to prosper financially because $30,000 cars turn into $8,000 cars in about an eye blink. And when you lose that much money making $60,000, it's tough to recover. So you probably have a car you can't afford. Is your income going up pretty steadily and fast? Are you going to pay this car off really, really fast?

Within the next two years, I'll be making over $100,000. Okay, then maybe we keep it. But you're going to have to lean into it and knock it out. I want it gone in, let's see, ought to be gone in a year. You need to be debt-free in a year. $2,500 a month, beans and rice, rice and beans. Chop the cart up. Get rid of the car.

And so if you're going to keep it, you need to pay it off real fast. And the only reason I'm saying you could keep it is because you're going to be making $100 and driving a $30,000 car paid for, making $100 is okay. Driving a $30,000 car and making $57,000, really not okay. It's not smart. And so it'll get you. You know, it's just a matter of can you afford to take the hit, the depreciation, the sound of money when you go across the curb into the street from having bought a new car.

Cha-ching, it just went down in value. This is the Dave Ramsey Solutions on the debt-free stage, Derek and Ashley are with us. Hey, guys, how are you? Good. Good, how are you? Welcome, welcome. Where do you guys live?

We live in West Branch, Michigan. West Branch, Michigan. What's that near? Not a whole lot. Okay, I'm going with that. I'm trying to get an idea of where in the state. About middle of the lower peninsula. Okay, cool. Well, welcome. It's good to have you guys all the way to Nashville. And here to do a debt-free screen, baby. How much have you paid off? We paid off $148,000. Wow. How long did this take? Nine months.

Whoa. And your range of income during that time? $80,000 to $100,000. Okay. Cool. So what kind of debt was the $148,000? It was a camper loan, student loans for both of us, and our house. Oh, your house?

Okay, what did you sell? Well, that's kind of part of the story. Okay, tell us the story. What happened? Well, we started on our baby steps. Oh, we started in August. Yep. And it took us eight months to pay off $35,000, which was everything except for the house.

And then at that time, we had a house fire. Oh, no. In March. Not the way we want to get out of that. No. No. No. So we were done with Baby Step 2, and then the fire happened,

and then we decided that we are just going to pay off the house too instead of buying stuff. Because before, we never would have probably paid off the house if we weren't already in the baby steps. We probably would have bought a car or done something stupid with the money. Instead, we just decided we'll pay it off and be done. Okay, so I'm a little bit confused. So the house didn't burn down. It did. Burned down completely.

Yeah, we lost everything. Okay. Oh, my gosh. And so you got this big check and paid off the mortgage. Yep. And now where are you living? Well, we actually still had enough money to build a house. Okay.

And it's almost done. For cash? Yeah. Oh, wow! Yeah, and we were living in a camper for the last five months during COVID. Okay. The COVID camper. Yeah.

I love it. It's got a name for life. Yeah, I don't want to be in it ever again. She thinks we're done camping. I think we're selling the camper. The house is done. This puppy's gone. Okay.

But to start with, you paid it off, that first $35,000. And then a house fire took your home. And your home had how much owed on it? $113,000. And what was it valued at? What was the check you got? Well. So we got money for the house and money for our contents.

Right. So, we took our contents money and paid off the house. So, we just decided we'd rather have a free, no mortgage and not have stuff. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. So, we figured we can get our stuff back with... Yeah. You know, not having...

Cash flow with no payments. Yeah. Yeah. And you're in the camper anyway right now. So, you got time while you're building to do that. So the difference, though, allowed you to pay cash for the build? Yeah. Wow.

Yeah. Very cool. Very cool. That's a different way of thinking. Yeah. We never would have thought that way if we weren't in the steps already. Yeah. No, and what was kind of crazy the whole time that we were paying off each student loan,

I had little links that i made um you know the yeah whatever construction my paper link yeah and every time i paid you know made the payment for the loan i'd throw it in the fire because we had yeah we had a boom boom boom yeah and then as soon as we were done with that, then the whole house caught on fire. Like, not because of that, but. Not because of that. There's a lot of leaks. There's a lot of leaks. Okay.

I guess we're done. So what happened with the house fire? It was undetermined. Yeah, it was undetermined. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Okay. But everybody was safe then.

It just breaks your heart. Just stuff. Your memory stuff is what, it's what tears your heart out. Yeah. The pictures and that kind of stuff are all gone. Everything that was on the walls, yeah, everything. I'm so sorry. So sorry you went through that. I'm glad you had a different way of looking at things when you're going through a horrible thing.

Right. That's what it amounts to is the principles need to work in great times, and they need to work in horrible times. Yeah, and we decided to turn a tragedy into a blessing. A blessing. Yeah. Yeah. And your decisions do that.

They do. Wow. Wow. You guys, that's amazing. So when's the house going to be ready? It should be done real soon. It should be completely finished. We just got, like, some trim and a little bit of railing to do, and it'll be done.

Okay. So you'll be in by Halloween. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Good. Before it gets cold. Yeah.

Before it gets super cold in that trailer. Yeah. You don't want to be in Michigan and a no, thank you. Yeah. No, thank you, no, thank you, no, thank you. Well done, you guys. So you made some weird, wild, wacky decisions. Starting in August, you cut to the bone, and then when this crazy

fire happens, now you got really weird. Move into the camper. You had to have people thought you needed counseling. You had to have friends or family making fun of you, for real. Oh, yeah. They were support, really.

We have an awesome community you're sweet they were some of them were supportive some of them get some of them gave you a hard time you know they did it's okay you didn't care you it wasn't about them no you no longer when your house burns down you don't really care what other people think no you just got to you got to deal with all those emotions your heart's in your throat and your wallet's on fire and everything else and you got to figure this out those emotions. Your heart's in your throat, and your wallet's on fire, and everything else. And you've got to figure this out, and you don't care what other people think. So you just did what's good for us, and if you guys don't get it, to heck with you.

Well done, y'all. I'm so proud of you. Okay, who was your biggest cheerleader then? Saying, way to go, I love your wackiness. I guess through the whole thing. We only told a few people throughout the whole time, but I guess through the whole thing. We only told a few people, you know, throughout the whole time, but I guess. Well, we were mostly our biggest supporters, but, you know, our family has instilled in us hard work, and, you know, they're a part of it.

Yeah, and my friend Lisa, I got her on board, and they're on the baby step two, almost done. Well, congratulations, you guys. Very proud of you. So when you move into this new house in the next week step two, almost done. Well, congratulations, you guys. Very proud of you. So when you move into this new house in the next week or two, and you don't have a payment in the world, and all of this crap is behind you, how's that going to feel? It's going to feel great.

Real good. Yeah, it's going to feel great. Yeah, like you paid a price to win, and then you win. Yeah. And how old are you two? 29. Yep, 29. Wow, and you have a paid-for house.

Not the prescribed way to get there, but we will take it. Yep, not the way we were hoping or expecting. Cool. So did you bring little ones with you? Yeah, we have Jackson with us. All right, and Jackson is how old? He's three. All right.

Been practicing his debt-free scream. Yes, he has. Yes, he has. Ready to go from Michigan. Here we go. All right. Derek, Ashley, and Jackson. Ready?

West Branch, Michigan, $148,000 paid off in nine months. What a story. Making $80,000 to $100,000. Count it down. Let's hear a debt-free scream. Ready, Jackson? Count it down. Three, two, one. We're debt-free! Great job, you guys. Great job. Man, oh man, what a story.

Wow, that takes your breath away. Here's the thing. I started this hour with that. Principles. When you have principles in place, you can make decisions in good times and bad times, and it's the exact same decision. If you wait until there's a victory, or you wait until there's a crisis to decide who you are, then you'll never know who you are and you'll always make bad decisions. Know what your value

system is. Know what it is you value. Know what it is your target. Know what we as a family, this is what we're going to do. I taught our kids growing up, I would say things all the time like, Ramsey's just don't do that. Ramsey's don't do that. Ramsey's don't do that. Now, you know, I just made that up, by the way, because lots of Ramsey's did that, right? But I just said, no, we don't do that. As for me and my house, we don't do that. This is what we do. This is what we do. ramses don't act that way you don't lay down in the middle of the restaurant floor and throw a dad blame fit and expect anything except having your little butt tied up because i'm getting ready to light you up ramses don't do that we don't act that way the inmates don't run the asylum i'm an old school dad. I'm even an old school Papa Dave. I love my inmates. I love the grandbabies, but they don't run the asylum. Ramseys don't do that. Decide what you is.

They already decided what they is, and then they get the house fire. Wow. Pretty cool. So sorry they went through that, but what a wonderful result. This is the Dave Ramsey Show. Thanks for joining us, America. We're glad you're here. How many of you guys are interested in retiring with dignity? How many of you are stressed out or hurting because you think your retirement savings took a major hit this year or because it actually did take a major hit this year because of the way you had it invested or handled it when COVID hit? Maybe you were super close to retiring. Maybe you're wondering if you can.

Maybe you pulled everything out at exactly the wrong time. Maybe you left it in because you could afford to ride the roller coaster. And then you didn't get hurt. You actually made money. Folks, if you're in any one of these situations, that just means you're investing. If you're investing, you're going to have these processes. And I want you to know you don't have to face pain or opportunity alone. Now more than ever, it's time to seek out the advice of an investment professional like one of our SmartVestor Pros.

SmartVestor Pros don't work for us. They're independent investment people that teach and live their investment advice the way we do. And so you get advice consistent with what we teach here and with the heart of a teacher. So 2020 does not have to kill you or kill your confidence or anything else. Go to DaveRamsey.com slash SmartVestor. DaveRamsey.com slash SmartVestor. DaveRamsey.com slash SmartVestor. Mitchell is in Indianapolis. Hi, Mitchell.

Welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. Hey, Dave. How are you? Better than I deserve. What's up? Good. First, congrats to Space Kitten on winner of the Battle of the Bands. That's awesome, first off.

Wow. Look at you. Secondly, I do have a question regarding my house on whether or not I should sell it for something less expensive. Um, so I'm single with no kids on baby step six, 30 years old, and I make around 90 K a year, um, 15 year fixed mortgage, um, with a monthly payment of about $1,600. So it's around the 32% range, which I know is higher than your recommendation. I love this part of the city I'm in, but it definitely is more expensive than other areas. So I kind of just want your opinion or your suggestion on what you would do. What's your income going to do in the next three to five years?

I mean, I really like my job, so i think i'll probably stay there but it's probably a raise of two to three percent a year given no pandemic okay all right well you're single you don't have any bills except this one except this one and if you like the house, I'd probably stay there. Okay. I don't think it's worth the trouble to move at this stage of the game. Like you said, it's not what I would have signed you up for, but turning around and undoing it would involve saying that this house is absolutely going to keep you from winning financially. And I don't think that's the case.

I think you've recognized that you've got a little more going out on house than you should, but it's not going to kill you. Seven percent, you got no other bills, you're single, you make 90, you know, you're obviously very responsible otherwise. And unless you just have another reason to move, if you do make a move, keep it within the guidelines. But I wouldn't move just to do that, if that's the singular reason for the move. Thanks for the call. So what he was referring to, if you didn't know, I think it was just, how many years have we been doing Battle of the Bands?

Eleven? Okay. Eleventh annual Battle of the Bands. We're in Nashville, which the way you get the next country music star's attention in Nashville is you say, waiter, in other words, everybody in this town sings or get fiddles except me, right? I'm the only one that doesn't. I'm in talk radio for a reason. I have zero talent on those kinds of issues.

But everybody's a singer around here. They're all cool. We have former American idols on our team and all this kind of stuff. And so all these brilliant musicians, and some of them are like developers, some of them are producers on this radio show, that kind of thing. They're really, really, really good musicians. So we started this thing just for the fun of it. And it kind of grew out, not kind of, it did grow out of control.

And for a while there, it went on for like days. You know, internal bands inside the company if you worked here you could put together a band and it was a contest and we well like at lunch we'd have everybody go into the conference center and two bands would you know compete and then the winner would advance on and then the next week at lunch and it would go on for like half the summer so we finally put it all in one night and then one day, and we've got this big amphitheater outside of our building out here, and Friday night was absolutely a gorgeous fall night in the state of Tennessee,

and we had our 11th annual Battle of the Bands. And they all named their bands something funny that has happened internally, making fun of some crisis that we have faced this year so there were a lot of covid um named bands um you know dumpster fires and all these kinds of things and so making fun of different things that we're all pissed about around here and so we we party and have a blast and um one of the uh names of the band was Space Kitten, and they were the winner this year. And they win pretty serious money. We spend way too much money on this, but it's big fun.

It's big fun. And it's the second biggest event that we do inside of our company every year. The biggest event is our legendary Christmas parties, which are just nuts and over the top and love being unbelievably generous, especially at Christmas. And so these are two of the reasons that Ramsey wins Best Place to Work every year. And last year won Best Place in the United States,

according to Inc. Magazine. Best place to work for a company our size in the U.S. But Battle of the Bands was a blast. It was serious fun, and it was all great life was good and so uh it was a lot of fun everybody did a great job and just really really really really enjoyable all right a question from a youtuber andrea says uh business boutique asks a fellow church member doesn't pay her bill for services rendered from my small business. How should I handle this biblically?

Well, Scripture says if you have a problem with someone, sit down with them and confront them. And if that doesn't work, take a witness and sit down with them and confront them. And if that doesn't work, take a witness and sit down with them and confront them. And if that doesn't work, sit down with the pastor and confront them. Now that would, for me in your situation, involve if there was a goodly sum of money and that has not been paid. Like this person owes you $10,000 and hasn't paid you. Now, the way you phrase this, a fellow church member doesn't pay her bill for services rendered from my small business,

it sounds like it's an ongoing thing. So the second time they don't pay their bill to you, it's your fault, because you extended services to someone who is a known offender. It doesn't matter if they go to church or not. They don't pay their bill. And so you can say to your friend or whoever this is or this church member, say, you know, as a fellow Christian, it's a bit offensive to me that you don't pay your bill,

but I understand there could be stuff going on in your life. But since you don't pay your bill, but I understand there could be stuff going on in your life. But since you don't pay your bills, what we're going to do is the only way we're going to be able to render services to you is cash in advance, which is what we would do with anyone who didn't pay their bill. We don't extend credit to people who don't pay bills. And so we don't extend credit around here anyway. So you just, if you want something, you just have to pay for it and we give it to you. You know, that's all it is. We don't like to send you a book and hope you pay. You pay, and then we send you a book. I mean, that's how this works. So, but, you know, the thing is, it's just so distressing, and sometimes in the Christian world, we automatically assume or assign competence to someone because they're at the church.

This person might just be incompetent with their money. Maybe you could suggest a total money makeover book or get into Ramsey Plus membership and it might help them learn how to handle money God's ways. And it might be that they're not lacking in character. They might be lacking in organization. And you could help them with that. But, you know, either way, just be kind. The problem, Andrea, is that when you expect someone just because they sit inside of a church to be perfect,

and you're always going to be disappointed, because imperfect people are in church, and that's where they need to be. All the perfect people don't have to go, which is none of you, by the way. But we imperfect people, we need to be in church. So just don't extend credit to them any further. If you want to confront them, that's fine. But that's how you handle it. This is the Dave Ramsey Show. Hey guys, this is Kelly, associate producer

of the Dave Ramsey Show. Did you know over 16 million people listen to the Dave Ramsey Show every week? And a lot of those people listen on one of our 600 plus radio stations across the country. To find the station near you, head to DaveRamsey.com slash show.